Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 745 | Life as a Duggar & Letting Go of Legalism | Guest: Jinger Duggar Vuolo

Episode Date: January 25, 2023

Today we’re joined by Jinger Duggar Vuolo, author of "Becoming Free Indeed: My Story of Disentangling Faith from Fear," and formerly of the "19 Kids and Counting" franchise. In her new book, Jinger shares her theological journey from following a fundamentalist leader to finding freedom in Christ. We discuss her upbringing under the teachings of Bill Gothard, who taught strict rules on modesty and behavior, and how these teachings were rooted in fear, superstition, and control and led Jinger to believe she needed to earn favor with God. We discuss her childhood growing up on TV (despite never watching TV), struggling with an eating disorder, and wrestling with the idea of attending a church outside her doctrine growing up. We discuss how Jinger met her husband, Jeremy, and how his theology helped shape hers. Jinger explains the difference between “deconstruction” and “disentangling” faith and why disentangling can lead to true restoration under biblical truth. --- Timecodes: (01:09) Interview with Jinger begins / "Becoming Free Indeed" (02:00) Bill Gothard's teaching (08:58) Growing up on TV (14:50) Struggling with fear (19:30) Struggling with an eating disorder (22:00) Parental authority & gaining favor with God (27:30) Letting go of old theology (40:20) Deconstruction vs. disentanglement --- Today's Sponsors: A'Del — go to adelnaturalcosmetics.com and enter promo code "ALLIE" for 25% off your first order! EdenPURE — get 3 Thunderstorm Air Purifiers for under $200 at EdenPureDeals.com, use promo code 'ALLIE3'! Patriot Mobile — go to PatriotMobile.com/ALLIE or call 878-PATRIOT and use promo code 'ALLIE' to get free activation! --- Relevant Episodes: Ep 176 | Jeremy Vuolo https://apple.co/3Dbh8fC Ep 730 | When God Calls You to Tell Jokes | Guest: Joel Berry https://apple.co/3WFnw5L --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. You know Ginger Volo from Reality TV. She is a daughter of the Duggers, the TLC show, 19 kids and counting. And she is here today to talk about her new book, Becoming Free Indeed, which is about disentangling herself, her faith from the, the principles that she grew up being taught, whether it was extremely strict modesty or

different forms of legalism that caused her to live her life in constant fear as an adolescent. She is talking about how the Holy Spirit has sanctified her and used different experiences, conversations, people in her life to show her what the true and liberating gospel is. You are absolutely going to love this conversation, really interesting, really encouraging. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use promo code Alley at checkout. Good Ranchers.com, code Alley.

Ginger, thank you so much for joining us. I'm so excited to have you. We're going to talk about your new book, becoming free indeed. So just tell us, before we get into all of it, just give us a little summary. What is this book about? Why did you write it? Yeah, thanks for having me, Ali. I'm so glad to be with you. Yeah, so becoming free indeed is the story of my faith journey. I grew up under some harmful teaching that threatened to leave me fearful and confused about who Jesus is. And this is the story of how I've had to disentangle faith from fear. Yeah. And the dedication says to those who have been heard.

by the teachings of Bill Gothard, I think that's how you pronounce his last name, or any religious leader who claimed to speak for a God, but didn't. I don't know who Bill Gothard is. I'm sure a lot of my audience dies, but a lot probably don't. Can you just tell us what you mean by that? Yeah, Bill Gothard came on the scene in the 1960s and 70s whenever sex, drugs and rock and roll were a big concern for parents. Yeah. And he came on the scene saying, that he had the answers to life's problems. And he came on saying that if parents followed these principles that he would lay out, that their life would be a success and God would bless their life. But if they didn't, then their life would be one disaster after another. So, oh, go ahead.

Yeah. So he set up all of these guidelines that he thought would keep kids from getting into sin. and parents were looking for answers and thought, well, of course, everybody wants a black and white answer of what that looks like. So he started hosting seminars that filled stadiums across the country. And many people came from all different backgrounds and filled those stadiums. And then he started after that many conferences and programs for kids. People from all different countries would come in to attend. And what were some of the rules or principles that he told parents, you have to abide by these if you want your kid to grow up to, you know, be on the straight and arrow?

I think some of the more outward stuff. I mean, a lot of it, most all of it was outward. But it would be like if you go into debt at all for any reason that God's going to bring destruction on you. If you listen to drums and music, then... God will, well, he would tell crazy stories about like a young man who listened to music with drums and was killed in the car accident because he had that on. And he would talk about modesty in a way that was outside of the Bible. And he would put on restrictions in specifics of what you had to wear and couldn't wear.

And so those types of things is what he based his teaching on. And here are some of the things that you listed, which you just said, but putting it in your words in the book, fastidiously obeying the modesty guideline. So again, not just modesty, but no shorts or jeans, only dresses, eagerly submitting to the umbrella of authority, any disobedience appearance would place her outside of God's protection, promoting the relationship standard of courtship, avoiding any music with a worldly beat among others. So it's not like these were just, hey, you know, these are suggestions that kind of worked in my own life, but this was basically, if you don't follow these things, you are going to fall out of the favor of God and your life

will be in turmoil, right? Right, exactly. And I think that type of teaching, it was so based on fear, superstition, superstition, manipulation, and control. So as a kid growing up in that, it was interesting. I really thought that God was either pleased with me because of what I did. If I followed all the guidelines. And if I didn't, I really thought that God was just out to get me. Even as a believer, once I was saved at the age of 14, I knew the true gospel was not by salvation by works. But the way that played out, Bill Gothard multiple times would give a scenario and say, well, before you come to Christ, do X, Y, Z. And it was totally wrong. But I never I've said that salvation was by works, but I viewed God in that way.

Like, he's either pleased with me or not pleased with me based on a secondary issue, like a standard that this man set up. Yeah. And I know that you say in the beginning that this is not a book, and it's not, it truly isn't a book about, you know, slamming your family or trying to say that you don't love your family or your parents didn't do a good job. But I am curious, like, okay, you didn't pick up. up a Gothard book. So like how did this teaching kind of infiltrate your life? What did that look like

growing up? My parents got into Bill Godthard. They were introduced to it as young couple. And I think since this was all I knew, this is how I viewed the world around me was I thought other people outside of Gothard's circle just didn't know the truth. They didn't have the handle in truth and their life wasn't going to be blessed because of it. So I was like, you're just waiting for disaster to strike in their life because they're outside of this. And so I would have pity for anyone who had not been exposed to his teachings. So you knew his name growing up. It wasn't just that your parents were saying, okay, this is what modesty looks like, et cetera.

You knew they talked about Bill Gothard. Yes. So I wasn't, I guess in the younger years, I kind of just, we would take in all these teachings. And so it was often what we would watch for church because we were in a home church. And that was a whole other side. So my parents wanted to give us the best life, which is what I said. This story is my story of how the Lord has led me to where I am, theologically, out of that harmful theology.

But my parents did teach me the gospel. They shared with me about salvation not being by works. And even though it was more like decision-based, you pray a prayer and you're saved, they still really sought to point us kids to the true gospel of Jesus Christ. And so I'm so grateful for that to this day. And at the same time, I would say the theology of that and being in a place where we thought, okay, well, we have to start a home church because no one is believing the exact same things we do in every place. So we can't go to a normal church, so-called normal, we need to start our own. So we would watch a lot of Bill Gothard's seminars. He has like 60 plus hours of these specific seminars to like learn his teachings.

We would watch those a lot of Sundays for our sermon. And so that is the teaching I grew up under. I would go to his conferences, his seminars, his girls retreats. All of that I attended. So I knew very well where the teachings came from. And I knew Bill Gothard personally as well. And I want to get more into that, but I also want to get into some of the chapters that you talked about

because you really do back up and give some context about, it's not really just about Gothard's teachings. It's also about kind of growing up in front of the camera and how all of that kind of led you to where you are now. Your first chapter talks about kind of being in a fishbow and the story, which I did not know, that someone stole your diary when you were little from your house, tried to sell it for $100,000.

I just can't imagine as like a little girl. I mean, I'm sure there was nothing really, but like you're writing in a way that you feel like it's very vulnerable, I think, when you're a little, and someone steals that and threatens to make it public. I mean, tell us a little bit more about that. Yeah, being in such a public place is interesting. for an adult, but then even more so for kids because that's all I knew. I grew up on TV. My family

had a TV show, reality TV show, from the age of 10, all the way up until just a couple years ago, it ended. So most of my life was spent on TV. And that definitely shaped the way I viewed people, too, because I think whenever my diary was stolen from my room, somebody had visited our family and taken it. I share more about this in the book. It was crazy. Like, it disappeared from my nightstand. So they went into my nightstand and took it. Wow. And that really made me think, oh, maybe not everyone's has my best interest in mind. And we had so graciously welcome this guest into our home for all day. And it really was interesting because I thought, why would somebody do that. Like I thought that people were nice and, but being in the public eye like that, it definitely

made me more guarded. And I thought, now I feel like I can't trust a lot of people. And so that was definitely a challenge as a young kid. Yeah. And so that was actually my mistake. That was actually in chapter two, but it does kind of all fall under the same thing. Like you are being so publicly scrutinized. How old were you when, I think it started, did it start as 19 kids in counting? So it started with a couple of pilot like documentaries, 14 kids were pregnant again. That's how it started. And then that was when I was 10. So a couple documentaries. The reality show started later. But still, all of those years, we were on TV. And so, and also, another side fact. We didn't watch TV. We didn't have TV in the home. So like we were on TV,

but we didn't really know like what it was, what people were seeing. So you know you're videoing, you know you're giving this footage, but it wasn't until years later where my mom couldn't go through the store without getting stopped at every turn and just basically like she would sometimes say, how about you guys go into the store, get the groceries because she knew it would take her an hour or an hour and a half to get through. Because people would be stopping her. We're stopping her. And that was at the height of the show for sure. But we started realizing, okay, this is not just this footage is going out.

And then it's coming back and we're like, oh, no one really sees it. Like we didn't even know the scope of like the reach of the show until that point. Hey, this is Steve Deast. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this Steve Day show right here on Blaze, TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Were you surprised when you were 10 or a little older than that, I guess, when it kind of became big that your parents decided to be a part of a television series, just given

that you guys didn't watch TV? Yeah, it definitely was something that I remember we prayed about as a family. And we didn't know what reality TV was. Like I said, we watched TV. So we had a certain level of understanding being in the public space because my dad was in politics. He served two terms in the house. And so we were used to that life in a sense, like going out in a place. In Arkansas State House, right?

Yes. So we were at the Capitol all the time. There were reporters there as there always are just for political stuff. And they would sometimes take pictures. But it was on such a smaller scale. So whenever my parents prayed about that, they said they wanted to share this message with the world that children are a blessing from God. And so that's why they decided to start the show was as a ministry at that point. Gotcha.

And then I'm sure that they didn't even have the vision to see how much it would grow and kind of the position that it would put, you know, a lot of their kids in and just kind of being scrutinized, having your diary potentially soul. on eBay. And you talk about how in the second chapter, I guess the combination of kind of feeling like you're in a fish bowl and then also a lot of the principles that you had been raised with, this kind of legalistic. If you don't do this, this bad thing will happen to you. Created just like a spirit of fear in you. That's how you characterize yourself primarily. It's just a fearful young girl. So tell us a little bit more about that. Yeah. Walking through my younger years, I remember 10, 11, 12, I struggled so much with fear to the point where I would get up so many times in the middle

of the night and I would go to my parents' room. And they were always so gracious to spend time talking with me, even if it was in the middle of the night and seeking to pray with me, point me to God's word. I just didn't know where those fears were coming from and what they were based in, why they wouldn't go away. And that was before I was genuinely a believer. I prayed a prayer at the age of six with my sister who had just committed her life to Jesus. She just prayed a prayer. So I just did the same thing. And I didn't even think about that throughout the coming years until I was faced with all of this fear. And then it kind of was, it just shook me because I thought, why am I so fearful? If I already prayed that prayer, I shouldn't be scared. What were you fearful of?

just kind of everything. I'm fearful of everything around me. And my view of God, I think at that point, was one based on stepping outside of the box. Like, if I step outside of this box, God's going to, he's going to take his hand off of me or smite me. Yeah. I can't sit outside of this box of authority at all or I'm opening myself up to the devil's attacks. So I viewed life like that. And it wasn't until the age of 14 where I was genuinely converted.

and I remember very well talking to my mom again for like all those months leading up to it. I talked to her. But at that point, the Lord opened my eyes to show me that I can't perform and I can't continue to try to please God by my good works. And so I was so broken. I was like a good kid in a sense. Like I didn't get in trouble a lot. I didn't push any boundaries.

The Lord just exposed to me my heart. And I've been trying to like read the Bible, trying to do all these things, but I had no heart for it. I didn't love God. So the Lord changed my heart at that age. And then those years following, my love for God grew. And my fear of death vanished. But what happened was my perspective on why those fears were there, fears of like, okay, should I now stay at home and read my Bible? and go out to play sport with my siblings, even though I already read my Bible for like an hour

that morning, I would start to become terrified thinking, I don't know what God expects of me. I want to honor you, but what do you expect of me? Why can't I figure this out? So I remember multiple times because of the umbrella of authority Bill Gauthored would teach, like you have to stay under your parents' authority. They are basically like, I guess you'd say almost like a priest, right? Like you go to them to confess every little sin, every little detail of your sin, and then God will forgive you. So it's interesting.

I kind of had this perspective of like, okay, well, if I think I'm supposed to stay home and read my Bible, if I think I'm supposed to fast today, which would come up like often, I kept thinking. I don't know, God. What do you want? What do you want? I would go to my mom and dad and say, like, they noticed like, why aren't you going to Brumball? It was my favorite sport. And I finally told him, I was like, I don't. I don't, I think I might be supposed to stay home and read my Bible. Like, I don't know what to do.

My dad would pause and he said, no, I want you to come with us. That totally took away that fear because I thought, now I'm obeying my authority. So God's going to protect me. I'm not going to die in a car accident on the way there. Yeah. Because I'm, um, my dad gave me permission. So it was that type of fear that really, um, kept my heart in a place that wasn't good because I really, I really, genuinely as a believer wanted to know the word of God, love the word of God, please God and everything. And yet I had an unhealthy view of who God was. Yeah. And you also talk about an eating disorder and just like hearing kind of your mentality. One, I can like, I can really relate to it in so many, in so many ways like growing up in the church. I didn't have the same kind of principles taught to me and things like that. But just as a young person trying to like navigate the will of God and am I really saved and was that prayer that I prayed seven times when I was eight years

old, like did that really count? Like I totally get all of that. But it's also making me wonder if that kind of like mentality is kind of what exacerbates or enables things like eating disorders. I also struggled with one when I was in college. You struggled with one too. Tell me a little bit more about that and just kind of what you think led you there. I think for me it was probably more so comparing myself with other people and not feeling good enough, wanting to be accepted, wanting to be pretty. And I was already thin. And so it wasn't like, I mean, naturally, I wasn't probably going to gain all of this weight,

even though I thought I was. And it was something that I was so afraid because I think when I opened up to my mind, mom, I started talking to her and I said, I'm struggling with this. Like I would try to get up as late as I could, sleep in as long as I could so I could skip a meal and eat as little as I could at a meal because I didn't want to get fat. And I talked to my mom who had also, she shares this story. She had struggled with an eating disorder. And so she started talking with me about my view of even myself. Like I just would compare myself to other people all the time.

She helped me work through that, prayed with me, and also helped me with accountability. So I was grateful for that because she would be like, text me what you eat, text me what, you know, you're doing.

And it was so helpful. And at the same time, I see like, man, I don't know exactly how I got to that place, but definitely focusing on myself and what others thought of me instead of what God thinks of me

and how he made me and created me to be. That's what I think led me there is the fear of man. And tell us a little bit more about how that kind of affected your life, this idea that I can't do anything outside of kind of reading my Bible unless my parents go tell me to do it. So I can't have fun unless my parents go. Like, what did that look like and kind of how long did that season last for you? It's hard to say exactly how long it lasts.

because it felt like it was such a long season. Looking back, I just remember multiple times. Like, my grandma was always about going out to thrift stores and I would want to go with her, but then I would be like, no, maybe I should stay at home because I have a feeling. Everything, you know, like I lived by my emotions and my relationship with God, which is not healthy because I think whether I was trying to make a decision about whether or not I should spend this time working out or if I should go and spend time with my siblings, play with them, I would put so much guilt on myself because of a feeling instead of basing my life on the

word of God and going to God's word and saying, okay, my emotions will go up and down, but God's word will never change. So of course I want to be in the word of God, but I'm not going to sit here for three hours every day reading my Bible because that's just not healthy. And so I think some of that, like my siblings probably would look back at that and say, oh yeah, we remember Ginger in that season. I was just trying to be like all spiritual. Even with my words, I would try not to laugh because I thought, oh, maybe that's not so spiritual. And it was like whatever I felt is what I tried to act out and live.

And looking back, I'm like, oh, man, I would tell my younger self, like, okay, you're not even living out the word of God. I'm not doing the one another's. If I'm just sitting at home, how am I going to share the gospel with my friends at Broomball if I'm sitting at home reading my Bible 24-7 and not speaking to my siblings, not helping with housework, whatever it is, you know? It's not what God has called us to do. Yeah. And I can see that fear would kind of motivate you so scared to fall outside of like God's

favor or what you believed was like the tiny circle of acceptability to God. And so it's like, well, you know that reading the Bible is good. And so, you know, I'll just stick with that. But you're right. You miss out on like so much growth and so much pleasure and so many good things that the Lord has for us, which I mean, it's a little bit of a tough balance because on the other side of that, there are obviously people who are like, well, I never feel like reading my Bible. So I never do. And, you know, so tell us a little bit about like how you figured out, okay, it's not one of these extremes. like this is what the gospel actually means and this is how you live it.

I think it came down to once I realized the theology I was in, I think it started to a lot of those external things in my view of God changed. That's when my life began to fall into more of a balance because I wanted to read the Word of God because, of course, I loved God. So I wasn't going to neglect the Word of God in prayer because I was a Christian who loves Jesus. one, you know, but viewing God as a friend, I think as a believer, was something that took me many years to start to realize and think, okay, I love God. I love him. And of course, I want to read the Word of God, but if I am allowing myself to be consumed with fear and thinking I can't do

anything else outside of that, that's imbalance. And so realizing that the word of God is very clear when it speaks about things that are even sinful, right? And I would think, okay, well, is going to bring up all bad because you have unbelievers there or maybe I'm going to talk to someone who says bad words. Maybe my mind will be polluted. But at the same time, I think once I realized who God is that he is a loving and kind savior and he does punish sin because he's a holy God. But as a believer, when I come to him and say, like, Lord, forgive me for this sin, like, that's how he forgives my sin. It's not by me doing these acts, thinking I'm going to gain favor with God or reading the Bible is going to make me closer to God because of what I've done,

not because God changing me from the inside out. And so that was the perspective that took me many years to figure out. But it just happened by reading the Word of God and by being in a solid church that taught me that. So when did you start going to that different church? I was in the same church for many years with my family. And I did not leave until like two weeks before. I was married. And part of that was due to the authority structure. I felt like I was. would have been sinning if I did anything different. And I probably, looking back, I probably could have asked my parents, hey, could I go over to my brother-in-law and sisters church, which is an awesome reform church and solid preaching? But I just, another layer of that was like, am I going to be

under God's authority and protection? Or am I dishonoring God by doing that? Because adult kids, even women can't ever have a job outside the home. You can't, well, you can't work outside the home, but you can't live outside of the home either. Until you're married. Until you're married, then that translates to your husband. Even if you're 40. No, even if you're 40. You should remain at home.

And otherwise, it's this umbrella of authority that Bill Gothar taught is that God is that God is here. He's up here. And then your parents are here and you're below that umbrella. if you come out from under their authority by moving out of the home, by getting a job, then you're opening yourself up to Satan's attacks because you don't have an umbrella that's what I believed wholeheartedly. And that's why I stayed. And I think once I got to a solid church, it was actually my husband Jeremy was preaching because he was a pastor. I married a pastor

who was pastoring in Laredo, Texas. And I went and joined that church. And yeah, I write more about this in the book. The challenges I had relationally with people, just trying to figure out how to be real and honest and vulnerable and open up to those people was a challenge. But the word of God that I was hearing was different than what I had heard at my previous church

or in Bill Gothard's seminar. because it is the word of God is not based on like, oh, I'm just going to go to this to get whatever can help me today. But it's like, what does the word of God actually say? What is the context in this passage preaching through the Bible from like an expisional standpoint where you're going through verse by verse through the Bible and seeing, oh, man, this story is the story of God's work in the world. It's not all about me.

and like it does affect us and God does use that to like show us our need for him to show us our send all these things but it's amazing the theme of the story being about God and not about like oh I'm going to pull out a verse to improve my life for today and then I'm going to move on it that's how I always view the Bible and so my view of God completely changed once I was in that solid setting yeah and I'm sure Jeremy played a big part in that because he didn't come from your same background, right? Jeremy grew up in a reformed home. His dad is a faithful pastor, loves the Lord.

And so he was raised in that. He did have some years where he kind of went off and in the college party scene, lived his life like that. But he knew the gospel and the Lord never let him enjoy any of his sin. So Jeremy came to know the Lord and had that foundation of truth and solid teaching that as soon as he was a believer, it was like, oh, I know all these answers because I've been in a solid church since I was a baby. So he came from a setting where they take the word of God and hold it up as the highest authority. And man's traditions and

opinions are not important on like these issues where the Bible is silent. They're silent. And when script speaks, they speak. So that's kind of in reference to a lot of different things. things that got their top, but one of them would be like, oh, women can't wear shorts or they can't wear pants. Those were kinds of rules that he imposed on the Bible that aren't really there. And I'm curious, I'm sure, like, it took a little bit of time to let go of some of those things that had just been a part of your life. So, like, what was that like? Even, you know, obviously, you're a believer. You're married. You were married to Jeremy and all that good stuff. your eyes were starting to be opened.

But do you feel like it still took time after that to kind of let go of some of those principles you have been taught? Yeah, Ali, I think it was, it was a long process for me because we did start talking about a lot of these things when we were engaged, especially since Jeremy came in, not knowing really anything about my family. He had seen like one or two shows in passing when he was at a friend's house and they turned it on. He was like, oh, that's through a friend.

Sorry, I just want to like insert. Y'all messed through a friend, right? Yeah, so my brother-in-law, Ben, he met Jeremy at a fellowship in Texas. And they connected exchange numbers and then they introduced us. Okay. Not really setting us up, but maybe they were setting us up. It worked. Yeah, it did work, right?

But Ben and Jeremy, like I saw Ben's family did things differently than us, my brother-in-law. And then Jeremy, when he came on the scene, we started to discuss a lot of these seminars when we were engaged because my dad said, okay, well, you know, I want you to listen to all these seminars before you get engaged of build authors. 60 plus hours, Jeremy was, he started to roll through them.

And it was then that he noticed, oh wait, wait, what do these people believe? Because on the out, it looks like Christianity, as he would know it. Like, it's like, oh, yeah, you can do a couple things differently. Like maybe you hold to courtship or maybe you wear dresses.

but like you love Jesus. So that's a thing. But once he started to realize the why behind, why I did everything that I said was a conviction from scripture, he began to pause these videos. We started watching them together on like Zoom because we were long distance. And the Lord used that in such a good way

because I was able to sit down, play a clip from Bill Gothard, where he would say, okay, man does not live by. bread alone. And then he would say in the next verse, so therefore we need more fiber in our diet. We need all these health things. And he would like jump off on this crazy rabbit trail talking about why we need this specific kind of bread, the specific bread mixer to make our lives pleasing to go. Wow. Wow. So I was like, why didn't I ever realize this? Why just seeing this

now after going to these conferences every year, listening to these seminars, every single, year. And then we started going through every area. Like if it was modesty, he would go down to some really terrible details. We won't talk about. But with that time of the month, this single dude who never had kids, never married, would go into details about- Bill Goddard, never had kids and never got married? Never. I did not know that. But that kind of honestly makes more sense. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. So he had all the answers to everything, how you were supposed to live your life down to every medical issue that he thought could be caused. Like if you have cancer, maybe you did this.

If you have this issue, I have a cure for it. So I started to realize when we were going through those that, wow, this guy is not a Bible teacher. Like, this is so shocking to me to even question it because Bill Gothler would even say of himself. He would say, once I teach you these principles, it would have been better for you not to hear these principles. than to hear it and depart from it. Wow. It's like a cult. I mean, it's like a cult leader.

Yeah, it is. I, you know, I can't say like, oh, it was a cult, but I can say very cult-like in nature. And kids would be terrified to leave because they thought, well, what is God going to do to me? Even as a believer, like that took time for me to focus on truth because I would be gripped with fear throughout those years of like doing things differently. As I saw it according to the Word of God, my life would change, but I would still be hit

and gripped with fear a lot. And so Jeremy was so kind to come along and say, okay, well, here's a text, you know, run to this text and just saturate your mind in the Word of God because that's what is going to relieve the fears. So the Lord was doing a lot of work in those years, but it took so much time to like get to a point where I was where I had a view of God as a loving, loving heavenly father, but then also realizing God is just, he does punish sin. But what does that look like in the life of the believer? Like it took me so many years to realize that God was a good and loving heavenly father, not waiting to punish me at every turn for some sin.

Maybe I forgot to confess a bad attitude. I may have not confessed to God. He wasn't going to just kill me because of that. Right. Wow, what a blessing that your dad told Jeremy that he needed to go through these videos and that you were able to go through them together. I mean, honestly, what an incredible opportunity to go through each teaching you had been taught and for Jeremy to pause and for you to just kind of think about. Well, hang on. I always accepted that as true, but maybe it's not really.

Honestly, a much more efficient way of going about that than like that kind of process being spread out over many years, even though it did ultimately take a long time still. just that kind of concentrated analysis of those principles, that's a pretty amazing thing that got did. It was. I look back at that with just such gratitude because I think what if we got into those, like, I don't think it would have happened because Jeremy's pretty good about like talking through stuff. And he would have initially like, I mean, he would eventually got down to like, why do you do what

you do before we were married? but but the level like you said the level of knowledge like quickly like oh why do you believe this okay well it's in the bible jeremy it's in the bible and then i'm like oh wait no it's not in the bible it was like the lord allowed it to be more of a lightful moment like oh wow i see god's word um totally different than i did before and it it was still like something i would come back to jeremy on a couple of things even though i saw it in the word of god it'd be like well let me get back to you on that. Like kids was a huge thing because I thought it was abortion to use any kind of contraceptive like or any kind of like yeah thing. Not just hormonal. Yeah.

Oh, no, no. But just even anything. I thought it was a sin and I was it was abortion. And so I thought I have to have as many kids as possible. So we talked about that. And he was kind of like, oh, of course I love kids. And I was like, I think I do too. But I mean, I just thought I was going to have 19 kids. And so one took me more time because it was so big in my mind. And then clothing, like, I remember we weren't allowed to buy shirts that were sleeveless at all, but we could roll our sleeves up when we were in the sun. That's okay. So it's interesting, the letter of the law that I used to follow. And then I started to look back at that and say, wow, that was so weird. Why did I do? Like, why didn't I see this in the Word of God before? Or not.

see it. So how do you explain to someone, because I see the difference, but maybe there are some people wondering this between kind of what we see and the whole deconstruction movement versus how you describe it, which is disentangling. I have my own idea of how I could parse that out, but I'm curious how you would describe that. Yeah, you might be able to say it better than I do, Ali, but I will say from my perspective, it has been disentangling is totally different than deconstruction because sadly I see a ton of people deconstructing like Joshua Harris has started this deconstruction starter pack. And it's so sad. Deconstructing is like when you rip everything apart, tear everything down to the studs and you never build it up again in your

faith. And it's like, we're done. Like I've ripped down all the things that I thought were true. but disentangling has been a process that it does take so many years. I think even some days where I'll wake up and I'm like, oh, like I'll be hit with thoughts about like what I used to believe and think, okay, well, I know what God's word says. So it's taken years of me saying, okay, well, this is what God's word says. And so I'm going to believe this. Even if I was twisted, warped view of the Bible for so many years from what Bill God, said this first means from what this other church said this first means, but going back to the

context, seeing the word of God for what it truly is, walking through the Bible, just first by verse with them preaching, teaching, all of that has helped me to take apart what's true from what's false. Separate, like if your hair has putty in it, you can just cut your hair off or you can take the time to slowly pick out the putty and get rid of the putty and keep your hair. That's kind of like this weird, it's a funny little analogy, but that's what I feel like I've been doing throughout these years. Like, even in parenting now, like I have two daughters and it's interesting with them, I can fall into this, well, I have the answer for everything. And then I realized, no, I have to rely on the spirit of God. It's terrifying raising kids when you don't have a system whenever it's so

easy to think, oh man, I was raised in build authored system. Let me just lean in on that. But at the end of the day, it's not going to lead to a good place. And so I know that. And it's going back to the Word of God, relying on the Lord to lead me and to carry me through because it's so easy to like put all of your trust in a man like I kind of did for Bill Godthard. I would consider him like a grandfather to me. And whenever something like that shakes you, I remember when I got the call talking about

him, I was like, man, like how did he fall? and then I didn't believe it for many years that he actually did. And what happened there? He was accused by more than 30 women of misconduct with him. And he initially said, well, maybe I had handled some things wrong. So I was so shook by that because I was like, how can he be what I thought was more of a prophet from God? How can he say this and let us down? So those types of things would shake me, but once I realize, okay, there will be many people

who come in speaking words that seem good, like that seem true. They try to base it on the Bible. But ultimately, at the end of the day, I have to go to the word of God for truth. And I can only, even though God has like given us teachers and preachers around us, at the end of the day, my faith and my trust is unwavering because it's. it's in Jesus Christ. And God's word is true. And that's what I cling to, even in the hardest days.

And it has taken many years for me to come to the place where I say, okay, I fully understand, not fully understand, but like the love of God for his children is there. I'm not like through this, there's so much grace that I was missing for all of those years, being raised in both of both their teaching. So this disentanglement has just been me seeing who God truly is, believing the Word of God, even when there's been so much confusion, and God has continued to, because He's given me the Holy Spirit, he has continued to open my eyes every day to more and more of the beauty of Christ,

the loveliness of Christ, and the truth of His Word has just been made known. Yeah. Well, amen. And everyone can read in more detail about all of this in your book, Free Indeed. And I'm guessing they can get it wherever becoming free indeed, excuse me, wherever books are sold, right? Yes, that's correct. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Ginger. And thank you for the time that I know it takes to write a book and to speak your story. That's not an easy thing to do. And I just, I know that this is going to help a lot of people. who maybe weren't raised the exact same way as you, but I mean, we all in one way or another have some disentangling to do. And so thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on. Thank you so much for having me, Allie. Thanks. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we

believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort, we ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.