Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 750 | Is Andy Stanley Gay-Affirming? | Guest: Jacob Kersey

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

Starting point is 00:00:19 We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Mega church pastor Andy Stanley is under fire for a clip that's gone viral on Twitter where it seems like he is going soft on the issue of homosexuality. And so we'll play that and I will give you my thoughts and analysis. And then we've got a former police officer, Jacob Kersey, who was fired from his job for his stance on sexuality in marriage, according to what God's word says. So this is a jam-packed episode that I know is going to encourage you.

Starting point is 00:01:11 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use promo code Alley at checkout goodrachers.com promo code Alley. Hey guys, welcome to relatable. Happy Tuesday. I had to think about that for a second, as I typically do. Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far. Okay, we're finally going to talk about this Andy Stanley controversy. You probably saw clips floating around a couple weeks ago on Twitter, people talking about something that he said about

Starting point is 00:01:48 homosexuality and gay people within the church. If you didn't see that, don't worry, we'll play the clips and talk about the context and all of that. And then I will respond to it and tell you what I think. I'll give some background on Andy Stanley too and why he's received some criticism, especially from the conservative camp, theologically over the past couple of years. So we'll get into all of that. And then I have a really interesting interview, as you heard at the top of the show, with someone who is going to be very clear about what the Bible says about marriage and sexuality

Starting point is 00:02:20 and gender. But before we start all of that, I just wanted to read the caption of an Instagram post from our friends on the cultist show. I've had them on once. How I have them on twice? If I haven't had them on twice, I need to have them on again. We talked about, okay, we've had them on twice. Okay, so we talked about the origins of Halloween and things like that. I just think they're really cool guys and really solid. You should go back and listen to those previous episodes. We'll link them in the description of this podcast if you have it. And I just love how they approach each cultural and social issue. They're never dismissive. They're like me and that they believe that, you know, the so-called culture wars matter. They're actually. a matter of biblical proportions, but they are so fixated on in the best way the triumph of Jesus and the victory that we have in him, that it just, whenever I read their words or listen to them, it just gives me a lot of hope and it reminds me of who wins. And this is in relation to the Sam Smith performance that we talked about yesterday. Go listen to that episode if you haven't.

Starting point is 00:03:31 Already we dive into that, what we should be concerned about, what we should, which what we should be less concerned about. And here's their take on it. I love how they say this. I won't read the entire caption, but I love the beginning of it. So they post a picture of Sam Smith, you know, dressed in his devil horns like Satan on the stage of the Grammys. And they said this, no amount of false worship of a defeated foe at the Grammys can

Starting point is 00:03:55 reverse what Christ accomplished at the cross. Boom. These people in their idolatry seek to obtain what only people in Christ have, peace with God and the freedom from the weight of sin. Yet in their idolatry, they repressed their knowledge of God and think that acceptance of sin is freedom from God. Willful ignorance cannot change reality. No amount of plain pretend can stop the inevitable outcome of us all. We all die. They will also one day die because the wages of sin is death.

Starting point is 00:04:27 Maybe I will read this whole thing. their God, who is no God at all, will also face the same inevitable outcome, God with a little G. It is called the Lake of Fire, and he gives no hope for those who are enslaved to their sin. What took place at the Grammys was an act of rebellion, none of which scares God. Instead, he laughs and holds the nations in derision. He will crush them like a potsherd. I think that's how you pronounce that. We Christians must pray and reach those who are deceived.

Starting point is 00:04:58 into thinking the acceptance of sin is freedom from God with the gospel, for we will all meet our maker. We should neither be alarmed or threatened at this gross display of pretend worship. We should fear for their souls and preach Christ crucified for the light, the true light, has come into the world, and the darkness will never overcome him. Yes, an amen. God is not scared. He is not anxious. He is not worried. He is not looking down and saying, how did it come to this? He is not confused about how we got here. He is not worried about the threat of darkness. Here's what Psalm 2 says, and that's what they're paraphrasing. Verse 1, why do the nations rage and the people's plot in vain? The kings of the earth set

Starting point is 00:05:53 themselves and the rulers take counsel together against the Lord and against his anointed saying, let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us. He who sits in the heavens laughs. The Lord holds them in derision. Then he will speak to them in his wrath and terrify them in his fury, saying, as for me, I have set my king on Zion, my holy hill. And then we can go to Psalm 37, which if you've been listening to the show for any amount of time, you know, It's my favorite Psalm. And this is a good reminder for us as we see that gross display of evil and wickedness, just unabashed darkness.

Starting point is 00:06:30 But even as we see also, and I think in a much more worrisome way as we talked about yesterday, the false teachings that are much more effective in swaying people and even professing Christians into a place of darkness and deceit. Psalm 37, fret not yourself. Freight not yourself because of evil doers. Aren't we all fretting ourselves because of evil doers? doers, I am. I'm always fretting myself about people who are evil and wicked and who do harm, not just to, you know, potentially to me, but in the world, to vulnerable people.

Starting point is 00:07:07 Fret not yourself, God says, because of evil doers. Be not envious of wrongdoers, for they will soon fade like the grass and wither like the green herb. Instead, trust in the Lord and do good, dwell in the land and befriend faithfulness. And then I'm just reading some of some of them in some of the verses. In just a little while, the wicked will be no more. Though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there. But the meek shall inherit the land and delight themselves in abundant peace. The wicked plots against the righteous and gnashes his teeth at him, but the Lord laughs at the wicked, for he sees his day is coming. So we see that theme throughout scripture, that the Lord is laughing at the wicked, not in a jovial way,

Starting point is 00:07:49 not because he thinks they're funny, but in a derisive way. You know, we talked about yesterday how so often Christians are so concerned with having an overly flowery, soft, nice tone, which is not always wrong. There is a place and a context and a time for that. But I sometimes wonder if we read closely about the character of God who actually hates the wicked and hates wickedness and truly holds them and derision. That doesn't mean that he doesn't want them to come to repentance. For God so loved the world, John 316 says, that he sent his only son to die for us. So of course, he desires that no one would perish, that everyone comes to repentance. But while we are in sin, we are an enemy of God. We are under the wrath of God. As we talked about yesterday, Ephesians 2. We are under the authority of the

Starting point is 00:08:43 prince of the power of the air. So it's a scary fate to be on the wrong side. of God, to be on the wrong side of the creator. And that really does lead into what we are talking about today with Andy Stanley and this controversy because what I fear is I will explain further is that Andy Stanley, and this is my opinion, this is my perspective, and this is based on all the contexts that I have read, watched, seen, listened. It is not my desire to be unfair to Andy Stanley to decontextualize him. That doesn't help him. That doesn't help me. That doesn't help you. It is to bring my, what I think, are valid and thoughtful concerns about the way that he sometimes talks about sin,

Starting point is 00:09:28 particularly sin that involves identity and sexuality. My concern based on what I have seen is that he does not take these sins seriously enough, that he does not see them as creating a chasm between people made in the image of God and their savior. But that he actually sees it is something that is kind of just misunderstood and mistreated by the church and that how the church sees these things as sin is really the problem and not the sin itself. So before I give any further explanation or analysis of that, I will play you, I'll play you this clip that has been going around on Twitter. I don't, I can't play you the full segment of this sermon because it's 10 minutes, 10 minutes long. The sermon itself, of course, is longer than that. And it's actually not a

Starting point is 00:10:13 sermon. It's a speech that he's giving at a pastor's conference that he gave. about the middle of last year. And so he's talking to a room of pastors, and the context is that he's talking about leading the next generation of Christians. And so he touches on this hot button issue of people who call themselves gay, identify as gay. And when I play this clip, I just want you to know,

Starting point is 00:10:38 I'm not trying to manipulate it. I'm not trying to leave contacts out of it to make it sound worse. I think this gives a full enough context for us to really get. and accurate understanding of what he's saying, and then I'll fill in some color after we watch it and listen to it. So here it is. A gay person, when I say a gay of men and women, okay, a gay person who still wants to attend church after the way the church has treated the gay community, I'm telling you, they have more faith than I do. They have more faith than a lot of you. A gay person who knows, you know what, I might not be accepted here, but I'm going to try it anyway.

Starting point is 00:11:15 have you ever done that as a straight person? Where do you go that you're not sure you're going to be accepted and you go over and over and over and over? I know 1st Corinthians 6 and I know Leviticus and I know Romans 1. It's so interesting to talk about all that stuff. But just, oh my goodness, a gay man or woman who wants to worship their heavenly father

Starting point is 00:11:39 who did not answer the cry of their heart when they were 12 and 13 and 14. and 15, God said no, and they still love God. We have some things to learn from a group of men and women who love Jesus that much and who want to worship with us. And I know the verses. I know the clobber passages, right? So there's a lot that I have to say about that particular clip, and I'll get into my analysis

Starting point is 00:12:09 in just a second. Hey, this is Steve Deast. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality.

Starting point is 00:12:31 We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this Steve Day show right here on Blaze TV, or listen wherever you get podcasts, I hope you'll join us. Okay, so let me just say, like, I don't disagree with everything that he says there. I don't disagree with everything that he says there.

Starting point is 00:13:10 I do believe that someone who is, and I will use different language, because part of my issue is the language that he uses and what it seems to imply, someone who is same-sex attracted. Or say someone who just calls themselves gay or calls themselves lesbian. and they are not a believer or maybe they were raised a Christian, but they spent a long time out of the church, but they feel some kind of pull. They feel some kind of hunger. They feel some kind of conviction. And they want to go back to church. They want to try it out. They want to see what it's like, but they're scared because maybe they do have a past experience in the church where their struggle

Starting point is 00:13:48 was not treated with compassion. They as a person were not treated with love. And, they weren't given the kind of care and the kind of counseling that they needed at the time. Maybe the only faced rejection, maybe the only faced condemnation. And they didn't get any of the love that is required to lead people to repentance. As we see in Romans too, it is God's kindness that leads people to repentance. And so maybe they do just have a completely negative experience. Or maybe they were given all the love in the world, but they were told that it was a sin. And they just disagreed with that.

Starting point is 00:14:25 they walked away from the church. There are different kinds of experiences there. That person who has struggled in that way or who believes that this is their identity, I do think it takes a measure of courage to walk into a church not knowing how people are going to treat you, not knowing if people are going to befriend you, if people are going to be kind to you, if people are going to be willing to allow you to sit in their congregation, either because of real experience, that you've had or because of some kind of portrayal that you've seen of Christians in the media that you believe or some kind of caricature that you've created in your head. Like I do think that for that person, it takes an amount of bravery that maybe you or I would not

Starting point is 00:15:11 necessarily have to muster. Now, I don't think that that is the only kind of person that might have to muster some courage and some gumption to walk into a church. People of all different kinds of backgrounds with all different kinds of experience. might have a difficult time walking into church by themselves or even with another person for a variety of reasons. But I do think the person who either identifies actively as gay or who thinks that they are transgender or the person who simply struggles with that kind of confusion, I do think that there is a level of courage and a level of faith, although I want to be kind of

Starting point is 00:15:52 careful with that word, like a level of hope, maybe that you or I in that specific context would not have to necessarily exercise. I think that we can say that. I think that we can probably empathize with that that's a different experience and maybe a different feeling than you or I might have, depending on who you are, depending on what your struggle is. Again, that's not the only struggle that would require that kind of courage to walk into a church. So there, I'm I understand what he's saying. One of my issues with this is the language that he uses when he says a gay man or woman or a gay person, a person who, you know, asked God for different feelings and God didn't

Starting point is 00:16:36 give them those different feelings. And then he kind of dismisses the passages about homosexuality. And, you know, he basically says we need to learn from their faith. They love God. To me, it is not clear either within this clip or. from anything that I heard and saw in this talk that he gave, that he is talking about people who simply struggle with same-sex attraction, who are attracted to the other sex, but they understand what God's word says. And so they are resisting that behavior and they are walking

Starting point is 00:17:10 in repentance. To me, it sounds very much like he believes that this is an identity that can coincide with active and repentant Christianity. And that is an issue. And that is actually unloving according to scripture. And it's not just this clip that I'm using to deduce that. There are several pastors who have spent time with Andy Stanley who have talked about their concerns online. There was a pastor named Ryan Visconti, He is the lead pastor at Generation Church in Arizona. And he reported on an interaction that he had with Andy Stanley. He said September 19th, 2019.

Starting point is 00:18:01 And he was with several pastors. And he engaged with a Q&A, a private Q&A with Andy Stanley. There were other pastors who then corroborated Ryan's rendering of the events that night where basically I don't have to read you the entire thread. we can link it so you can read it for yourself. But basically that Andy shared that he is affirming, that he believes the homosexuality is some kind of disability, that it's a feeling that cannot be changed.

Starting point is 00:18:30 And he said that maybe one day he would officiate a gay wedding. If maybe he said if his granddaughter asked him someday to officiate a gay wedding, then he would. Now, this is this person's rendering of what happened. It's been corroborated by other pastors. who are there, but this is one person saying what Andy Stanley said in this meeting of pastors. And there were several other people or the several other comments that Andy Stanley made that made this particular pastor and other pastors uncomfortable with his stance on homosexuality.

Starting point is 00:19:07 And from what I see from this particular clip, I see something that is in opposition to what Christians who either used to identify as gay or who struggle with. same sex attraction have said is helpful and accurate when it comes to evangelizing to these people. I'm talking about Christopher Yuan. I'm talking about Beckett Cook. I'm talking about Rosaria Butterfield, all people who have done a lot of work in detaching your attraction, your sexual attraction from your identity. They have worked really hard to say, no, there's no such thing as a gay person as a matter of identity. There are people who are attracted to the same sex.

Starting point is 00:19:53 But if you are a Christian, we are called to repent from what God calls dishonorable. And that is true for all of us. That is true for all of us. It's not just true for people who have those desires. It's true for all of us. And we understand that when we become a Christian, we become a new creation, that God is it primarily calling people from gay to straight or, from being confused about their gender to not being confused about their gender.

Starting point is 00:20:19 He is calling them from darkness to light. He is calling them from old to new. He is calling them from broken to whole. That's what the former drag queen that we talked to last week emphasized for us. But all of that comes with time with repentance. And that is what Andy Stanley seems to be missing here and dismissing here. You can say some of the things that he said and some of them. might be valid and true, as I kind of already underlined, but for him to dismiss the repentance

Starting point is 00:20:53 part, for him to dismiss the sin part, for him to imply that this is their identity, that it is possible to be an active rebellion to the Lord with your identity and with your behavior and also be faithful to him at the same time. Look, that's not possible for any of us. It's not possible for any of us. And for us to dismiss what the Bible has to say about this is to put souls in peril. It is not loving. It is not Christ-like. It is not compassionate for us to belittle what the Bible calls sin, especially when it comes to sexual sin because sexual sin is actually distinct. It's different because you are sinning against yourself. You're sitting against your own body. which is supposed to be as a Christian a dwelling place for the Holy Spirit.

Starting point is 00:21:48 That doesn't mean we don't mess up as Christians. That doesn't mean we don't mess up a million times as Christians. But our life is marked by Holy Spirit empowered repentance. It is not marked by the celebration of a so-called identity or a sin that is in rebellion to his word. So I want to read you some of these clobber passages that Andy Stanley says it's fun to debate, but that he just kind of pushes to the side as he says that basically we just need to learn from those who identify as gay Christians because I am more concerned with and more interested in

Starting point is 00:22:22 what the Bible has to say about this than what Andy Stanley or anyone else has to say about this. So he calls these clobber passages. He says that he's read 1st Corinthians 6, he's read Romans 1, but then he just kind of moves along as if they don't matter, as if they're not that significant. Romans 1, 24 through 27 says this. And this is harsh. Like, this is harsher than what I would say. It's certainly harsher than what Andy Stanley would say. But what do we say on this podcast so often?

Starting point is 00:22:54 We can't outlove God. God is love. First John 4-8. He is the source and the arbiter and the definer of it. He is the, he encapsulates it. is love. So I cannot outlove him by trying to change what he says or try to soften what he says. And here's what he says, the God who is love in Romans 1. He says, therefore God gave them up and the lusts of their hearts to impurity to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves because they exchanged

Starting point is 00:23:27 the truth about God for a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the creator who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason, God gave them up to dishonorable passions. for their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature. And the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another. Men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. I know a lot of people have said, oh, the word homosexuality was added in in the 1940s. Or this is not talking about homosexuality. This is talking about prostitution or pedophil.

Starting point is 00:24:03 Yep. No. No. This is very explicit and very clear. clear. And this is just one example. And then we also have 1 Corinthians 6-9 through 11. Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And here's the hope.

Starting point is 00:24:31 Here's the hope. Like you want to be loving Andy Stanley. You want to reach this next generation. You want to reach those people who are scared to go to church? Here's the hope. Not that, hey, you know what, we're going to let you in. We're not going to talk about your sin because that's uncomfy. Here's the hope. And such were some of you. But you were washed.

Starting point is 00:24:52 You were sanctified. You were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our God. 1st Corinthians 6, 9 through 11. That's a clobber passage, Andy St. He says. A clobber passage? That's the gospel. That is the gospel.

Starting point is 00:25:07 You're saying that that is a passage that Christians maliciously use to bludgeon people who are gay? Are you seeing that the gospel? Is that? The gospel then is too harsh. The gospel is not an effective tool to evangelize. The gospel is not loving enough to reach people. Apparently we have to nuance it. Apparently we kind of have to dismiss it as something that is just a little bit too harsh.

Starting point is 00:25:35 Really? Are you more loving than God? Do you know better than Him? Are you more loving than Christ that you've got better news than the one that he delivers here? And such were some of you, but you were washed. You were sanctified. You were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our God. That is the message to those who claim to be homosexual, to those who claim to be transgender,

Starting point is 00:26:03 to those who claim who are adulterers, to those who are drunkards, to those who are greedy, to those who are idolaters in any way, that is the most loving and most inclusive message that you can give to someone, the most hopeful message that you can give to someone if you care, if you care, if you care about their soul, if you care about their heart, if you care about their body, if you care about them at all, then that is the message that we use. And as I've said many times before, but just to reiterate, it's not just those passages. It's not just the passages that say it's wrong. We can, you know, say, oh, you know, we don't want to look at those, which is the wrong way to look at the Bible.

Starting point is 00:26:44 But we're not only looking at the Bible asking, well, what can what does God say is wrong? Or what could we possibly get away with? How can we kind of finagle this to get around these verses? That's not how we read scripture. Christians don't read scripture saying, what can I get away with? but how can I glorify a God the most? And so we don't just look at these so-called clobber passages, as Andy Stanley calls them,

Starting point is 00:27:07 that says that these things are sin. But we also look at how God positively defines marriage and sexuality. And what we see, Andy Stanley would like this because he's an amazing communicator. And if he doesn't about face on this, he is more than welcome to use this alliteration as long as he credits me. God's definition of gender and marriage, and of holy sexuality, holy sexual relationships, according to Scripture. Five part alliteration is number one, rooted in creation, number two, reiterated throughout

Starting point is 00:27:39 scripture, number three, repeated by Jesus, number four, representative of Christ in the church, and number five, therefore reflective of the gospel. Number one, rooted in creation, Genesis 1.27, so God created man in his own image, and the image of God he created him, male and female he created them, Genesis 1.27. Number two, reiterated throughout scripture, honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you, Exodus 2012. That's just one example. But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman, her own husband, 1 Corinthians 7, 2. Again, those designations, distinctions are not arbitrary or accidental. They're very specific. This is also repeated by Jesus. Jesus says, have you not read that he who created, them from the beginning made them male and female and said therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife and the two shall become one flesh Matthew 19 four through five people say Jesus never mentioned sexuality he's very clear number four it is representative of christ in the church

Starting point is 00:28:45 Ephesians 522 and verse 25 and 31 through 32 says this wives submit to your own husbands as to the lord husbands love your wives as christ lived the church and gave himself up for her. Therefore, a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. Wow, that's a huge deal. That's an eternal spiritual mystery that earthly marriage between a man and a woman reflects that cannot work between two women or two men, according to this passage. So therefore, number five, it is reflective of the gospel. Revelation 197, let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory for the marriage of the lamb has come and his bride has made herself ready. That's Christ

Starting point is 00:29:34 and the church. So wow, the Bible starts with a marriage between Adam and Eve. It ends with a marriage between the lamb and his bride, Christ and the church. An earthly marriage between one man and one woman is a reflection of that eternal reality. It is a reflection of the gospel. So if we get this wrong, We get a lot wrong. We don't understand the gospel. We don't understand scripture. We don't understand what this whole story is about, honestly. And that is why when you see pastors Christians start to compromise on this, they eventually start to compromise on everything else too.

Starting point is 00:30:12 Now, this understanding of scripture from Andy Stanley is not all that surprising based on some past comments that he said. And we don't have time to get into all of it, all of the content. controversy that erupted a few years ago when it seemed that, it seemed that from some of the things that he was saying that he kind of questioned the sufficiency or the effectiveness of scripture when it comes to evangelism. So I'll explain a little bit of that in just one second, just to give even wider context to all of this. All right. So I only have a couple minutes. I really wanted to get into this a little bit more, but I spent more time on that, on the beginning part than I thought. that I would. But you might remember a few years ago there was a controversy, I think it was in

Starting point is 00:31:09 2018, about Andy Stanley in one of his sermon series talking about unhitching theology from the Old Testament. He said first century church leaders unhitched the church from the worldview value system and regulations of the Jewish scriptures. Peter James Paul elected to unhitch the Christian faith from their Jewish scriptures. And my friends, we must as well. Now, he, he defended himself. And I think that it is totally worth it to say that he says that he is not saying that we should dismiss the Old Testament. And he's not saying that the Old Testament doesn't matter at all. And he's not saying that it has no authority, but that it just doesn't, I don't know. I guess that he was saying that it doesn't have the same authority.

Starting point is 00:31:49 He said that you have to listen to the three-part series and get all the context. But a lot of pastors, a lot of theologians took issue with that. Because obviously we don't dismiss the authority of the Old Testament. while we are not bound to the ceremonial laws that ancient Israel was because Jesus has become our cleansing and become our sacrifice and reconciliation to God, we don't dismiss the character of God, who God is, and the principles that can be gathered from the Old Testament. They don't have less authority for us as Christians. And so some people did start to question like his view of Scripture and how he sees the

Starting point is 00:32:23 infallibility, inerrancy of Scripture. And then he wrote a book called Irresistible that quite a few people took issue with. Because basically, the point of the book is he talks about several times and he emphasizes in the advertising videos for this book is that we shouldn't say the Bible says. We shouldn't say the Bible says because the Bible says is going to be an ineffective way to evangelize to people because he would say that. other people don't believe that the Bible has authority. So if you said the Bible says something, then that person is just going to quickly dismiss it. But there is a way that we can live our lives

Starting point is 00:33:05 and try to persuade people that is ultimately more effective than saying the Bible says. But a lot of people took issue with his book and how he seems to kind of undermine the authority of scripture and the uniqueness of the Bible compared to the uniqueness of scriptures from other religions because he, you know, makes the comparison. Well, if someone told you the Quran says, and you're not a Muslim, you're not going to care what the Quran says. But as John Piper has pointed out in his repudiation of some of Andy Stanley's teachings, the Quran isn't the Bible. We believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. We believe that it is the source of truth, that it is the source of love. And while I agree that going around and simply saying, well, the Bible says,

Starting point is 00:33:47 the Bible says this. The Bible says that isn't always the most effective strategy. And that's, it's always the strategy necessarily when you're initiating conversation with someone. I also don't believe that my words are going to be more persuasive. Am I wiser and more persuasive than God? Do I have a message that's better than the gospel? Am I in my own power? Like, do I have the ability to come up with words that are more appealing than what God's inspired word says? I don't think so. Now, that doesn't mean that I'm not going to try to build a relationship with someone or build a friendship with someone or, you know, show someone who Christ is through various words and actions, I think that's all true. But at the end of the day, the gospel must come from scripture.

Starting point is 00:34:29 The gospel is found in God's word, and I am not going to find better words than what God has already said, what God has already ordained. And so I disagree, as many pastors disagree with this idea that the Bible doesn't simply, does that the Bible does not have enough authority to change people's hearts and minds. I also think that that is a misunderstanding of salvation, of how God reaches people, of how God plants seeds in people. Actually, like the testimonies that I get from people on this show, they always have some kind of interaction or some kind of conversation. It seems like where someone actually talked about what scripture says to them. Someone actually tells them what God says or

Starting point is 00:35:17 someone shares a book with them that includes scripture in it that really made them start thinking. Christopher Yuan, perfect example. I think he was maybe the second episode that I ever did. He talks about laying in jail and you got to go listen to this interview and go read his books. And he looks up and he sees Jeremiah 29-11 and he gets a Bible. He's in prison. And he starts reading the Bible. And that's when he starts understanding what the gospel is. I mean, this was a person who was not a Christian. And yet God used his own work. because, duh, to evangelize to him and to change his heart. That is the power of God's word.

Starting point is 00:35:52 Our words don't have that same power. Yes, the Holy Spirit can use us in a variety of ways, but at the end of the day, the only time we are speaking totally infallible truth is when we are speaking God's word. So all of that to say, and gosh, I have so much more to say about that and so much that other wiser Christians have said about that and so like much more context to give to that. but I just don't have time, but I did just want to give a little bit of context because it kind of makes sense. I think Andy Stanley, as I said, is an amazing communicator. He is so clear and so good, like so captivating and compelling God has given him an incredible, an incredible gift.

Starting point is 00:36:31 It seems like from my perspective that he believes that he can do a better job of reaching people than God can. That's what it seems like. He seems, it seems, it seems. It seems. It seems, to me like he thinks God is actually too harsh. And God is not a good enough communicator. And God is not compelling enough. That God's word really has to be changed and softened and nuanced and just kind of tailored and pruned and cut away in order to be presented to people in a way that is effective. I don't think so. I don't think so. I think God is bigger and way better than me and can do a way better job of changing people's hearts and mind. than I ever could, as much as I love to communicate by the way.

Starting point is 00:37:18 And he uses teachers and he uses teachings and he uses communication and tools and books and all of that. But at the end of the day, again, the only time where we know can be confident that we are speaking total truth is when we are repeating God's word. God's word is enough. We can't out love him. We can't out justice him. We can't out compassion him.

Starting point is 00:37:35 We can't out empathy him. We can't outdo him at all. He knows what he's doing and he's always known what he is doing when it comes to changing hearts and minds. Speaking the truth and love means speaking God's word, never watering it down. That's actually the most hateful thing that we can do. It's actually self-serving and self-worshipping rather than worshiping the God of the universe who knows better. Jacob, thank you so much for joining us. I saw your story a couple weeks ago. I think I originally saw it in the Daily Signal. The headline says Georgia police officer resigned after being put

Starting point is 00:38:15 on leave for Facebook post about traditional marriage. So what the heck happened? This is not happening in Pennsylvania or New York. This is happening in Georgia. What went on? Well, thank you, Ali, for having me on. And so January 2nd, I made a Facebook post, somewhat of a paraphrase of Epheson 5, where I stated, God design marriage, marriage refers to Christ and the church. that's why there's no such thing as homosexual marriage. I received a phone call from my direct supervisor the next day telling me I would need to remove the post. It had received an anonymous complaint from someone at the police department, and I would need to remove it, and I need to be reminded of separation of church and state.

Starting point is 00:39:02 I said, well, that would violate my values, my deeply held religious beliefs. I can't just remove the post. I won't remove the post. And he said, well, know that if you don't remove the post, it could lead to your termination. So I was informed I needed to contact my lieutenant. I called my lieutenant, and he told me that the reason they wanted me to remove the post is they were concerned about, you know, liabilities and about my ability to perform my job as a police officer after making statements like that. I said, well, if I do my job professionally, if I treat everyone with courtesy, fairness, and respect, I don't see why, you know, my deal. deeply held Christian beliefs would raise concerns about me being able to do my job effectively.

Starting point is 00:39:46 Right. He said, well, you know, we're all Christians here. Let me talk to the major. And so my major called me less than five minutes later and told me to turn in everything that belongs to the city the next day when I come in to work. And so, well, when a police officer normally told that, that means you're fired. It means you're done. So I had the long, restless, sleepless night on January 3rd to wrestle with did I really want to lose my job over this? So I go in on January 4th. I have a meeting with my command staff after I turned everything in. They told me, you know, well, we're going to give you kind of a second chance to remove the post. When I refused, my chief equated what I said to using

Starting point is 00:40:29 the N-word. Wow. And told me that they were going to place me on administrative leave why they did an investigation. So I was placed on administrative leave. About a week later, I was brought back in, told that I had violated no policies, no rules. I did nothing wrong. However, don't do it again. I was told that they were going to create a new department policy that would allow me to post Bible verses or scripture verbatim. However, if I give any interpretation, any opinion, or any explanation of scripture that someone somewhere considers offensive that I would be fired for it. And so I was left with, you know, you can resign now, or if you come back to work, you will be fired if you express these beliefs. And I resigned because, number one, I was given that ultimatum

Starting point is 00:41:21 of you can resign now or be fired later. But also, a police officer needs to know that the command staff has your back, especially with as dangerous as the job is. I need to be. I need. to know that my command staff is going to have my back. And after my chief equated me to being a racist and I was placed on administrative leave, led to believe I was being fired and told that if I come back, I would be fired if I said things like this again. I decided to resign because at the end of the day, my motive was to go back to work. And I'm not posting these things to get fired.

Starting point is 00:41:55 I'm posting these things because I sincerely believe them because that's what scripture teaches. And then I was told I can't express those beliefs outside of work and be a police officer. Wow. And I just want to reread what you wrote. God designed marriage. Marriage refers to Christ in the church, which you're exactly right. That's what the end of Ephesians 5 clearly says. That's why there is no such thing as homosexual marriage.

Starting point is 00:42:22 That's absolutely correct. That is, by the way, what Christians have believed for 2,000 years. that's what Jews believed before, not that it refers to Christ in the church, but that God made us male and female, and that the creation account in Genesis 1 starts with a marriage. And Ephesians 5 is actually the perfect passage to make that point because we see very clearly that wives submit to your husbands as to the Lord, husbands love your wives. As Christ loves the church, this mystery is profound. I am saying that it refers to Christ in the church. That could not be more clear. So that doesn't work with two men.

Starting point is 00:42:56 It doesn't work with two women. it only works in a male-female relationship. That is what marriage is. That's what Christians have believed for thousands of years. You didn't call anyone names in this. You didn't talk about any specific person as far as I can see. You didn't say that we should hate these people, that we should be mean to these people. You simply repeated literally what the Bible says about marriage.

Starting point is 00:43:20 And this police department, which is outside of Savannah, I think you said, the Port Wentworth Police Department, said, oh, we're all Christians here. But this is too far. And the separation of church and state? This has nothing to do with church and state. You're not going around as a police officer trying to enforce this to people who live in Savannah, are you? Right. Yeah. Absolutely not.

Starting point is 00:43:44 You know, there was never an incident where I was on a traffic stop trying to save someone after I gave them a speeding ticket. Right. It was never a domestic that I responded to where I was handing out gospel tracks. I was simply off duty expressing my Christian belief, which, by the way, if you go to my church's statement of faith on our website, we say the same thing, and churches all over the nation, this is what we clearly believe. It's not merely an interpretation of Scripture. It is a Christian belief. It is very, very clear in Scripture that this is what's being taught. And so this idea that Christians cannot be trusted to be police officers,

Starting point is 00:44:26 because they have this like a devout belief is absolutely absurd. It's ridiculous and we should not stand for it. And I must say it's not going to stop at a small town police department in Georgia. This is going to continue. That same level of questioning, well, we're concerned about your ability to perform your job fairly. What? Because I'm a Christian and have these deeply held Christian beliefs, you're going to question any Christian in any area of public service about the same thing.

Starting point is 00:44:55 well, do you believe this? And if you do, well, you can't work here because, you know, fairness, tolerance. It's ridiculous that we've gone this far. And it's not going to stop in a small town in Georgia. It's going to continue. I understand why you resigned rather than making them follow you. I mean, you probably could have had a lawsuit on First Amendment grounds if you had like made them fire you. But I mean, as you said, like your life is on the line in this job. And so trying to continue to protect and serve, knowing that the people in charge don't have your back, I mean, that puts you in a very physically vulnerable position. So I don't blame you for resigning. But I do wonder, like, has there been any backlash towards the police department? Like,

Starting point is 00:45:55 what's happened since then? Or has it just kind of been radio silence from them? Well, I know, I believe it was this past Monday that the police chief actually abruptly retired. He said to one of the local news stations it was a forced retirement. However, the city has not said that it was related to the incident. In fact, the city hasn't even recognized that this happened to me. They've gone completely silent. I don't know why the police chief was forced to retire. I personally believe it absolutely had to do with my situation. was said because that was national news for a week before the police chief retired. And he said it wasn't in his plan to retire that he was forced to retire. So I hope the city says something. You know, there's there's been a lot of backlash, I guess, towards the city and the police department and their decision. But there's also been backlash to me and my decision, you know, whether I didn't do enough, I did too much. And I'll have to say this, we're in a spiritual war right now.

Starting point is 00:46:59 We're in the midst of a spiritual war. The Grammys last night, perfect example of what's been happening. Before then, Little Naz-X with videos that he did, dancing around as Satan with his music, and then Sam Smith doing the same thing. Satan is deceiving people. He's lying to people, and it's infiltrating our churches. I was reading a 2014 study by the Pew Research Center said that the United Methodist Church, 60% said that the church should affirm LGBTQ plus.

Starting point is 00:47:34 What? Yeah. What's happening to our churches? What's happening to American Christianity? It's being so watered down, so affected by the culture. We're not standing for God's word and God's truth. We've made Jesus into what is culturally acceptable, and we're not believing in the Jesus of the Bible. We're believing in our own made-up American version of Jesus.

Starting point is 00:47:56 And, you know, Satan wants to dominate. And any time that the church remains silent on these issues, he's going to dominate. When we've remained silent on sexuality, he's going to dominate. He's going to exercise his dominion in every area. And he's been doing that. He's been exercising his dominion in our schools, in our sports, in our entertainment. And he's going to exercise his dominion in the church. You're seeing what's happening to the Methodist Church.

Starting point is 00:48:23 It's happening in the Presbyterian Church. It's happening in the Baptist Church. all across the nation. And when Christians are told that if you speak out against these issues that you're being hateful, that is so false. I do think that there are people who take it too far, maybe like the image of someone standing on the street corner, holding up a side and saying,

Starting point is 00:48:43 if you're doing these things, you're all going to hell, I think that's probably not a very wise, loving approach. But to merely say that, hey, just like Paul said, those that practice these things will not in heaven. inherit the kingdom of God. It's not loving to affirm people in sin that's going to ultimately damn their soul to hell. Yeah. Yeah. And Paul stated that, hey, I was formerly a blasphemer. I was formerly a persecutor of the church. But God and his mercy saved me from that. Paul wasn't shy about the sins that he struggled with. And Christians, we're not perfect. We don't claim to be

Starting point is 00:49:19 problem-free, but we know the one who offers redemption for our sins. And Christians, we're not perfect. We don't claim to be problem-free, but we know the one who offers redemption for our sin and for the problems we have. And that's what we have to point to. We have to point to Jesus and say, Jesus doesn't practice affirmational inclusion. He practices transformational inclusion. He wants to transform your life. And he did it for me, and he'll do it for you. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:49:41 I think that's so good. I think so many Christians think that, like, the full gospel is just that Jesus loves you. They won't tell the bad news before they tell the good news. And so the good news seems kind of irrelevant to people. The good news is that, yes, there is a gospel that Jesus died on the cross to save you. But the bad news is that you're not saved, that you need to be saved. And, you know, Ephesians 2 makes clear, as you said, that that was all of us at one point. Does it make me better than anyone else?

Starting point is 00:50:07 It's just what it is. And I do think if more people were just clear about things like marriage, which the Bible is so clear on, This is not one of those, you know, compromisable, wishy-washy subjects. Maybe we wouldn't be where we are as a culture. And as you said, also like a church. I think about people in different positions, but a similar position as you were who are, they're like, they're listening to this and, you know, they admire you. But they're like, look, I can't lose my job.

Starting point is 00:50:38 I can't do that. I'm not going to say this thing. I'm not going to stand up because I don't want to lose everything. It's not worth the sacrifice. Someone might be thinking, you know, like, I'm a single mom with four kids. How am I going to do this? Like, what's your encouragement to Christians who face very real loss and sacrifice if they stand up for what they know is right? Because that can be, you know, it's a tough position for a lot of people.

Starting point is 00:51:06 Yeah, absolutely. You know, my heart, my heart breaks for anyone who's in that situation where they're faced with losing everything. you know i i'm not a a 15 year veteran of of law enforcement with a family and and and a mortgage payment and a car payment i have very few financial obligations and and i don't have a family so i'm a single 19 year old male who i'm able to make this decision without it having a lot of effect on my financial situation but i know there are people out there who like you said are face with that. And, you know, I think very first and foremost, we have to pray and make sure our motives are right. Why do you want to stand for, do you really believe Jesus? Do you really believe

Starting point is 00:51:56 His teaching? Do you really believe His commandments? So make sure your motives are right. Make sure your heart is right first. You know, you don't want to be the person walking around with a log hanging out of your eye. Right. Trying to stand for something when others have special. in their eye. You know, you want to make sure your heart and your motives are right. But also, like, you look back in the first and second century Christians, the very first Christians with Emperor Nero, they were, they were tortured, you know, eaten by dogs, used as as, as, as, as, uh, lamp stands as they were placed on above wooden piles and lit on fire. You know, they were beheaded. They were tortured. They were in prison. They were persecuted.

Starting point is 00:52:40 physically for their faith. And yet, I think if we're not willing to stand for God at the workplace, how can we ever expect to stand for God at the chopping block? You know, we're not being called here in America to physically give our lives, at least not yet. We're just being called, well, hey, you might lose your job. You might lose Instagram followers. You might not have as many likes on your post. You might not be invited to as many nights out on the town as you once were.

Starting point is 00:53:12 But you know what? You have Jesus. And that should be your joy. That should be your shrink. That should be your hope. You have far more in Christ than you ever will have in this world. And so I would hope by the power of the Holy Spirit, that we would have faith and boldness,

Starting point is 00:53:32 boldness in love to stand for the truth of God's word, wherever we're at, whether that's at the workplace, whether that is for some at the chopping block. We do it because of the hope that we have in Jesus Christ because he's transformed our lives. And also may the local church surround these people who, because they took a stand, are having to endure immense sacrifice, especially if it means losing livelihood for themselves, for their families, that's also like, that's where the church comes in. That's where we share arrows.

Starting point is 00:54:17 That's something I say on my show a lot, whether it's Jack Phillips in Colorado or whether it's someone in your congregation, when someone takes these shots rather than other Christians sitting down and saying, ooh, I'm glad that's not me. I'll never say something like that now. Ooh, I'm so glad that I'm not the target of bullying. No, we all need to stand up and say, you know what? Me too. Me too.

Starting point is 00:54:38 I believe that too. And if you're going to launch arrows at him, like, you're. like you can send them my way too. I'll share them. And I think that's part of what we have to do as the body of Christ. And I mean, it is, I am so glad for your testimony, but I am, you know, it's a bummer because you are the kind of guy that we want in our police departments. And if this happens across the country, then we are missing out on a lot of good law

Starting point is 00:55:06 enforcement at a time when law enforcement is so heavily criticized. And we keep hearing how they lack. compassion, how they lack love and how they lack, you know, work ethic or whatever, you're saying that we're going to fire the very people that are demonstrating these characteristics that we want in law enforcement. That's just really sad. And also just like a word to supervisors and bosses, like the people who who give anonymous complaints, they're not the boss of you.

Starting point is 00:55:37 They're not in charge of you. You do not have to listen to people who whine about their feelings being heard. about something that someone who works for you said. You don't have to say yes to them. You don't have to fire the person because someone's feelings are hurt. You don't. You can just say no to them and move on.

Starting point is 00:55:53 So that's just what I wanted to say. Do you have any final words for us? Well, you know, a lot of people have asked me what's happened to the First Amendment. Yeah. And I say, what's happened to First Amendment is we that people haven't stood up for. You know, I think as believers, as Christians, we're told to be good stewards of what God has given us.

Starting point is 00:56:15 And he's placed us in a nation with these amazing freedoms. And if we just stand around and say, oh, well, this is a cool little talent God gave me. I'm going to bury it in the dirt and just wait for him to come back. We're going to be the unfaithful servant he's not happy with. We're called to be good stewards of what God has given us. And I think part of that is standing for our First Amendment right while we have it to say, hey, God has given us these freedoms.

Starting point is 00:56:39 These are freedoms from God. we can practice our religion freely openly and we should not be driven out of the public sphere. So we the people have to stand up. My final words of encouragement to fellow believers is just pray without ceasing and ask God for opportunities to help you be bold and show love all at the same time. You don't have to have either or. You can have both and. And we need to pray for opportunities to be bold, especially. When Satan is right in our face all the time with the music we hear on the radio, with the things we see on TV, with the things our kids are learning at school, you go out on town and you just hear it over and over and over and over again, these lies and the deception from Satan, our enemy.

Starting point is 00:57:29 He's fighting a spiritual battle and we need to get off our cruise ship and we need to board the battleship and start fighting for God's worth, God's word and God's truth because in the end that's what wins. And we need to realize that and live as if that is the case. And so be bold, be loving, and just know that God is going to win in the end. You've read the end of the book. Yeah, yeah, yes and amen. And even though the persecution here doesn't look like it does in the Middle East, we're not saying that it does. You mentioned that earlier.

Starting point is 00:58:00 Every single sacrifice made, every single degree of hardship endured for the sake of Christ and for the truth. If God's word counts for something, it builds up. an eternal glory that far outweighs any trial or tribulation that we endure today. So that is comfort, that this counts for something. It counts for eternity, and it gives God eternal pleasure when His people obey Him, even in seemingly small ways. So thank you for doing that, and thanks for using this just tough opportunity or tough situation as an opportunity to share the gospel. You have a podcast, correct? Yes. I've had a podcast for about seven years. It's called the Jacob Cursey program.

Starting point is 00:58:42 And what we do is we offer expert analysis and great perspective about issues facing the church and the conservative movement like things like this. I've talked about it in years past on this show. And unfortunately it came knocking right on my door. But we do that. We have great guests on, whether it's politicians, actors, journalists, TV hosts, faith leaders, just people who know what they're talking about. Come on the show. We ask questions, have great conversations. And you can find that pretty much wherever you get podcasts. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Jacob. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on. Thank you, Allie. Thank you.

Starting point is 00:59:24 Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts.

Starting point is 01:00:02 I hope you'll join us.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 750 | Is Andy Stanley Gay-Affirming? | Guest: Jacob Kersey

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