Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 757 | New Studies Prove We Were Right About Masks & Immunity | Guest: Jennifer Sey

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

Starting point is 00:00:19 We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. A new meta-analysis of studies looking at the efficacy of masks found that community mask wearing made little to no difference in mitigating COVID. And a new study in The Lancet shows that natural COVID immunity is at least as effective as vaccine immunity. This, in addition to a national report card published last fall by the National Assessment of Educational Progress that shows a precipitous decline in student performance since 2019. Interesting.

Starting point is 00:01:10 These are things you and I and millions of other Americans have known since 2020. And yet, millions of Americans lost their jobs for questioning the official quote unquote COVID science on masks, vaccines, and school closures, including our guest today. Jennifer say she was an executive at Levi's, a self-identified leftist who took issue with the COVID mandates and how they were affecting children. And she was pushed out of her company for her outspokenness. So today she's going to tell us her story and just the emotional response that she had to feeling betrayed by the company and her coworkers that she had known for over 20 years and how difficult it has been to be pushing back against Democrat Party. orthodoxy. She's also going to tell us her reaction to these recent studies today. This is an

Starting point is 00:02:02 amazing conversation. You're going to be encouraged by her bravery and maybe a little bit peeved that finally the scientific community is catching up to our common sense. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use promo code Alley at checkout. That's good ranchers.com. Code Allie. Jennifer, thanks so much for joining us. For those who might not know, maybe they haven't heard your story yet, tell us who you are and what you do. Yeah, absolutely. My name is Jennifer Say, and I worked at Levi's for close to 23 years, which is a really long time in the world today. No one does that anymore.

Starting point is 00:02:50 Stays in a company for that long. I started as an entry-level marketing assistant in 1999 and worked my way all the way up to brand president in 2020 and was next in line to become the CEO. I would have been the first female CEO of the company. But in March of 2020, I was outspoken about restrictions placed on kids, kids in particular. Public school closures, the masking of very young children, closed playgrounds in my former city. San Francisco playgrounds were closed for close to 10 months. Basketball hoops were taken down at playgrounds.

Starting point is 00:03:27 Beaches were closed. So I was very outspoken about these things. And after a two-year conflict at the company with my colleagues telling you, me I needed to stop all while their own children were at in-person private school. I was eventually told in January 22 that there was no longer a place for me in the company. And I was offered severance to stay quiet about, you know, why I was leaving, which is that I was shoved out the door. And I decided not to take that one million dollars in severance so that I could talk about the censorship inside corporate America. And previously, before you started talking about these COVID restrictions and

Starting point is 00:04:04 the repercussions of them. Did you find yourself pretty politically and ideologically aligned with a lot of these coworkers that were now pushing back against you in regard to COVID? I definitely did. I mean, I'd been a lefty my whole life. I was politically aligned with the citizenry of San Francisco and had never, you know, faced any conflict. And I had been outspoken about my politics in the past and no one had any issue. But for whatever reason, COVID lockdowns, And, you know, no one gets to do anything until there's zero COVID became the policy, the official policy and orthodoxy of the left. And I viewed it as a trespass of their stated values and came to believe that their stated values were false and, you know, completely hollow. It was hard, everything was so harmful to children, to lower income folks, to working class folks.

Starting point is 00:04:56 We've seen the largest upward transfer of wealth in history due to the restrictions and the lockdowns. And, you know, in a sense, I feel I stayed true to. to my values. I've always, you know, I've been an advocate for children for a very long time. I was an elite gymnast as a child and wrote a book in 2008 about the abuse in that sport, the emotional, physical and sexual abuse in the sport of gymnastics. And so I'd been involved in child advocacy, children's advocacy for, you know, close to 15 years at this point. And I saw this advocacy as an extension of that because it was so obvious to anyone with eyes that children would be harmed. And yet we were told we needed to further an obvious lie, which is that kids weren't resilient enough to

Starting point is 00:05:37 withstand this. They were not. Right. And what you said about you feel that you actually stayed true to what are, what have been considered kind of left wing and liberal ideas. Obviously, I am, I don't consider myself a liberal or on the left and I never have. But I can understand how from a left wing perspective, someone would articulate that their ideals are equality.

Starting point is 00:06:03 income equality, racial equality, rights for the most vulnerable, fighting for the powerless. Those are kind of the ideas and ideals that people on the left have said that they have championed for a while. And while I disagree with a lot of the means implemented to do that, I do understand and can sympathize with some of those stated goals. And so when you decided to push back against this, when you looked at what was going on and you saw, for example, there was an upward transfer of wealth, that your rich white friends were able to put their kids in pods or homeschool them or keep them in private schools, but that that wasn't accessible for people who didn't have the same resources.

Starting point is 00:06:42 You kind of said, okay, I'm going to just keep championing the values that I always have. I'm going to keep on talking about the things that I've always talked about. So my question for you is, like, why do you think that all of these people that you considered yourself to be ideologically aligned with for so long. Like what was the difference? Like you went one way, they went the other way. Did you have an experience? Did you see something?

Starting point is 00:07:09 Or like, what do you think it was that made the difference for you versus them? You know what, Allie Beth? I think I will be trying to figure this out for the rest of my life. Honestly, it's really confounding. You know, all I can say is that I've always been about principle more than party. So it was never about an allegiance to a particular order. orthodoxy or a particular party. It was about equality of opportunity. It was about children. You know, I sent my own children to public school, though I couldn't, you know, though I could have afforded

Starting point is 00:07:40 private because I want them to be part of the community that they live in. And I believe in that. And so, you know, it's hard for me still to wrap my head around the trespass of their own stated values. I can only say that they never really embraced them and they never really believed it. it was always about orthodoxy and allegiance to party rather than principle. And needless to say, that's pretty disorienting and upsetting, but it doesn't change my view. And I think that, you know, that situation has intensified over the last few years and the tribalism has intensified. You know, it used to be, you could be a part of a party and not hold every single, you know, view of that platform, right? You could be, that is not possible anymore.

Starting point is 00:08:32 You cannot. And so if you question one pillar of the platform, you are then assumed to be evil. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, I was called the worst unemployable names because I questioned school closures, which obviously were going to hurt children. I was called a racist. I was called a fat phobion. I was called a eugenicist and anti, all these things. And the arc of your life doesn't matter.

Starting point is 00:08:56 what you've done in your life doesn't matter, they will vilify you to keep others silent because it became very clear at a certain point that I was not going to be silent. But you know what? It certainly kept others silent because nobody wanted to put themselves through what I went through. So it's just this sort of complete allegiance to the party without, you know, even thinking through if what they're saying is true or makes sense. And I refuse to do that. I refuse to further a lie. I'm loyal to the truth and I will advocate for children and that's it. Yeah. And I'm curious if you agree with this. I do see tribalism certainly on both the left and the right. But to me, from my perspective as a conservative, it seems to be a lot stronger on the

Starting point is 00:09:44 left because when I look at like even my fellow hosts at Blaze TV, which is definitely a right wing conservative network, we disagree on some really big things. Like we might disagree on the whole like we might disagree on several things. I'll just say that. There are plenty of culture war and political things that we disagree with. But at the end of the day, hey, if you're going to fight against these mask mandates with me, I'm willing to link arms with you, even if we really disagree with abortion or this thing over here. I see a lot of that. Not that I don't see a lot of infighting on the right, because I certainly do. But there seems to be a lot more acceptance of heterodox views on the right than the left. And I think even you kind of being

Starting point is 00:10:25 you know, on a lot of conservative shows and being elevated by a lot of people on the right is kind of evidence of that that it seems like the, the tribalism on the left and the purity tests on the left, to me, they seem a lot stronger than what we have on the right. Now that you've kind of seen both sides and been in both camps, do you agree with that? Yeah, I mean, I have to say my experience in the last three years would, reflect exactly what you're saying. I am hesitant to join any party at this point. And I'm a registered independent right now. And you can understand why I might be a little gun shy, you know, because I don't want to be forced to sign in blood that I will uphold every principle that the party puts forth.

Starting point is 00:11:14 But to your point, I have been, I have spent the last year being invited to talk to folks like you. And I'm sure that you and I have plenty that we disagree on. And I'm sure there's plenty that we agree on, but you're willing to sit here with me and talk about this and link arms with me on the things that we do agree on and not consider me a holy evil person just because we disagree on some other issues. And that's the change, I think. It's like you used to be able to disagree with your friends, disagree with your party members, disagree with members of the community on certain things and not be viewed as evil. And that just doesn't seem to be the case on the left anymore. And they will go after you with such vile, I mean, aggression to just rid you from the party and their community.

Starting point is 00:12:02 You're viewed as sort of a heretic if you disagree on anything. And it doesn't matter if you make sense. You know, I cited data. Here's the thing. Everything I said has borne itself out. It was true. And yet there's still no redemption. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:12:14 That's the thing. And that's something that I've seen a lot on the left. And again, not saying that it never happens on the right, but that there's almost no chance of redemption, unless you go through. through some kind of Maoist style struggle session where you've been sufficiently shamed and therefore sanctified into recanting your position and just repeating the party lines over and over again until the people in power deem your groveling sufficient. I mean, is that, I mean, is that even really democracy, which is a value that a lot of people on the last that they uphold? I mean, that's, it's not. It's a form of totalitarianism, even if it's not the

Starting point is 00:12:52 president of the United States coming down and saying you have to say this. It's a kind of like, I know this is going to sound weird, but democratized totalitarianism where the people are the ones that are actually inflicting the tyranny rather than like the power at the top. That just doesn't seem sustainable to me. Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more, actually. And in fact, I was forced to participate in one of these struggle sessions that you, that you mentioned in June of 2020. I was told I needed to do an apology tour internally at the company. Why? One, because of the stances I had taken very publicly.

Starting point is 00:13:30 And at this point, schools have been closed for over a year in San Francisco. That's 50,000 students kept out of school for over a year. And still no sign of them opening and no sign of them opening in the fall. And so I was asked, and oh, the other thing that prompted it was I was invited to go on Fox News. So I appeared on the Laura Ingram show in March of 2020. And that was such an egregious violation in their minds that I was made to do this apology tour. Now, you'll like this. Before the apology tour, a colleague sent me a list of questions I should be prepared to answer.

Starting point is 00:14:05 This is straight out of a CCP struggle session. Are you with us or against us? Are you one of them? Wow. Are you one of us? Let's see. Are you a wolf and sheep's clothing? That's what we think.

Starting point is 00:14:18 Are you a racist? Are you aware that advocating for open schools is racist? Are you a conspiracy theorist? As if anyone answers yes to that question. Now, I agreed to do the apology tour because I was not going to apologize. I was going to explain myself, which is exactly what I did. And I felt, you know, I could build a bridge if I, yeah, I'm always very diplomatic and I cited data. I mean, that's part of what made you successful, I'm sure, and allowed you to work yourself up in the company because, I mean, you don't get to where you were without being able to deal diplomatically with all different kinds of people. But now you find yourself in a position where

Starting point is 00:14:52 that strength isn't working. Well, there was no convincing anyone. I mean, it was just, it's hard to explain. I'm not sure where you live, but it's hard to explain what it was like in San Francisco in a very left-leaning city during COVID. I mean, I was literally my husband and I were alone. We were the only ones and we were standing there going, it's so obvious, how do you not see this?

Starting point is 00:15:16 How do you not see that locking a child in their room for over a year is going to be How do you not see that that's harmful? It's so patently obvious. And it was so patently obvious that we were using children as human shields. You know, we're not supposed to sacrifice children for the well-being of adults. And that's what we were told we had to do. And yet, you know, there was no veering from this and anyone who did. And, you know, veering could be just asking a question, you know, just literally saying,

Starting point is 00:15:47 are we sure this is the right thing? Is this really helping? Or is this doing more harm than good? just for saying that, you were you were deemed as an evil apostate. And there, you know, I mean, I remember walking around San Francisco and a woman came up to me and my daughter who was four at the time and she screamed in our faces. My daughter and I were at the beach without a mask. Oh my goodness.

Starting point is 00:16:10 And she screamed in my daughter's face. I will not feel sorry for your mother when you die. Oh my goodness. Imagine saying that and thinking that you are actually on. the compassionate and good side. That's my point. It's like it justified such cruelty, this certainty that they were the morally virtuous as a member of this COVID tribe that was willing to do anything to sacrifice any freedom,

Starting point is 00:16:37 any liberty, any child that made you good and virtuous. And this is the purview of totalitarian regimes, right? They offer you safety in exchange for your freedom. That is always the deal. There is no difference. So I could not agree with you more. This was pure tyranny and businesses upheld. Even if they weren't asked, it was this sort of total collaboration or partnership between big business.

Starting point is 00:17:04 We've seen it now with big tech and the government and big pharma. And they carried water for the government's policies, you know, for the left-wing narrative, which ultimately became the government in November of. Yeah. 2021. And so, but it justified all manner of cruelty. I mean, it's grotesque. And I just, the harder I was pushed, the more I stood my ground because it didn't

Starting point is 00:17:31 make sense to me. At one point, I was told by our head of HR because do you know, I got a call every two weeks telling me I had to stop that when I spoke, I spoke on behalf of the company and I said I did not. I was just a mom. Yes, I hold a senior position, but I'm a mom for public school children. I don't give up my rights as a citizen just because I have a job. And, you know, at one point, maybe a year into this, our head of HR said, Jen, I agree with you, but you just can't say these things.

Starting point is 00:18:01 And I reject that outright. Why? Why can't I say these things? Because it violated the Democratic Party narrative. That is why. I was also told I couldn't criticize Governor Gavin Newsome. Wow. So you check your First Amendment rights at the door just because you have a job. That seems to be what a lot of people on the left unfortunately think about a whole host of people.

Starting point is 00:18:23 Obviously, you are, oh, go ahead. Oh, I was going to say, you know, there are some people that say, well, it's because you have a senior job. You know, you're public facing, right? In many ways, I was the face of the Levi's brand. I was the chief marketing officer and then the brand president. It's important to note, whenever I spoke about these matters, I never used my title. I was on the local news. I was on the national news.

Starting point is 00:18:45 I always said, identify me as a mom of the president. I took any connection down on my social media to Levi. So I made it clear I was speaking for myself. But some folks would say, well, as that sort of executive and leader position in a company, you had a different obligation. Well, I had no contract that stayed at such. So that's the first point, I don't believe that just because I have a job, I give up my rights as a citizen. And beyond that, if I, an influential senior executive, well-liked, beloved in the company, can't speak out about things that impact my family, my children and the children of the community.

Starting point is 00:19:21 What chance does a, you know, work a day employee have being able to do so? So I actually would argue the point is the opposite. You know, I have to be able to do it so that others have. Exactly. And obviously, you are, you're a very strong and confident person. You wouldn't have kept going if you weren't. You wouldn't have gotten to where you were in R if you hadn't been. But you're also a human being.

Starting point is 00:19:45 So I imagine that there were at times that you got your feelings hurt. I mean, this company had been a part of your life for 20 years. I'm sure a lot of these coworkers felt like family. Levi's in general probably felt like family. And a lot of your future maybe had even been kind of mapped out with Levi's central to that plan with you becoming the CEO. So tell me about the feelings that I'm sure you felt of personal. just betrayal? Were there moments that you just kind of like broke down to your husband and you were

Starting point is 00:20:20 like, I can't believe this is happening to me? Absolutely. I mean, I still have them. You know, if I'm really honest. It's only been a year. You know, I'm still sorting it. These were my friends, hundreds, if not thousands of people. I managed a team of over a thousand people. There were people that had worked for me at Levi's for over 20 years. I helped them build careers. I went to baby showers and weddings. I even attended funerals of family members. I had four children there. You know, I built a life there. It's the better part of my adult life that I spent there. And these were my friends and I talk to no one anymore. It's incredibly difficult. And, you know, my husband's a little more strident than I am. And I actually, interestingly, got in trouble for things he would say on

Starting point is 00:21:06 social media as well, which is a whole other can of worms, which we don't need to talk about. But he, I would get really upset and I would cry sometimes and he would say who cares what they think they're wrong. Why do you care if they like you? They're wrong. They're being cruel and evil and they're harming children and they're wrong. And he gave me the sort of energy and confidence to keep going. You know, he just has a different outlook than I do. It's I don't like to be hated. I hate it. But I care about the truth and I care about children more. And so I will, I am willing. to withstand the slings and arrows and cancellation and joblessness if I have to. Hey, this is Steve Day.

Starting point is 00:21:53 If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's

Starting point is 00:22:15 unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this T-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Gosh, it makes such a big difference to have a husband, to have a spouse in your corner that is strong, even though you see things a little bit differently when it comes to kind of like personal relationships and people liking you. I feel like that's really a normal kind of dynamic in marriages.

Starting point is 00:22:52 But it helps a lot if you have someone who reminds you that the truth is worth it. Sometimes, you know, the truth is even worth losing those relationships over if the other person is being cruel. And I can just imagine you said like the arc of your life and your career didn't matter. All these people who knew for a fact that you were not a racist called you a racist. All of these people who knew for a fact that you were not a bigot who hated people didn't care about grandma, we're calling you someone who's advocating for genocide. That really hurts. Like, I know when I've gotten accusations from people who know me because I'm a conservative or whatever, that I'm like, you know that's not my character, though. You know me. You know that that's

Starting point is 00:23:35 not true about me. Like, that cuts a lot more than the random troll on the internet who, you know, calls me a name or something like that. So I just imagine that this has been a really emotional time. It's been, it has been really difficult. It's nice that you recognize and acknowledge that. And I, I, like I said, I haven't fully kind of sorted it yet. I mean, I have, there's a member of my family, a close member that I haven't spoken to in close to three years because he considers my views evil and wrong. I mean, imagine that. A family member. Talk about knowing the arc of your life. I have four children. My two oldest children are mixed race. Their father is black. To be called a racist is just ridiculous. And yet if I were to say that, which I'm saying to you, I'm said to be sort of shielding my racism with my own children. So, I mean, the whole thing, it's absurd. And at first, it was really hurtful. But honestly, I got to the point where I could sort of laugh at it because it was so nonsensical. It didn't make any sense.

Starting point is 00:24:35 And really, those sorts of vicious ad hominem attacks are only meant to silence. They are the purview of those with no argument. Why not engage me on the merits of my argument? Yeah. Why just resort to name calling? Because you don't have an argument. So I did get to the point where I could blow those things off. But the hard thing was about halfway through because I spent two years in conflict at the company.

Starting point is 00:24:57 About halfway through, I started to realize that I very well could lose my job. And I'm the breadwinner in the family. You know, my husband doesn't work. He stays home with our children. I have two kids in college. You know, it's a risky, scary thing. And apparently, even as an executive, I didn't negotiate. all that well for myself. And so it's not like I'm in a position where I don't need to work.

Starting point is 00:25:20 I absolutely need to work. And yet I'm still considered pretty toxic in the corporate world, not because I was wrong at this point, but because I didn't tow the party line. You know, I get a lot of, well, why did you have to say it? Why didn't you just wait? Well, if I just waited, who was going to say it? Somebody has to go first. And looking back at your time at Levi's, I'm sure you saw corporate America change and kind of lean more into liberal political activism. And you said before this, you had kind of been outspoken about your politics. But now looking back, do you kind of see maybe some red flags that you didn't notice in the moment when you saw, hmm, we're a lot more politically overt than we were before? Hmm, kind of seems like we're pushing values down people's throat as a, you know, a denim.

Starting point is 00:26:12 company that we weren't doing previously. Do you look back and see that? Do you feel like you were kind of a part of this shift leftward of corporate America? To some extent, although there's a bit of a line for me that I don't really think I necessarily crossed. You know, Levi's had always been a, you know, they would have said, a progressive company that valued profits through principles. So, you know, making money and driving a successful business in a principled way. And that really had always been turned inwards in terms of how they treated employees. So for instance, they integrated factories in the South before the law required it. That was something I was proud of, you know. I think that was courageous. And there were employees who rejected it. People were angry. They didn't like it. But Levi's,

Starting point is 00:27:06 you know, stood their ground. In the 1980s, the company did not enter China when it opened up because of the working conditions for Chinese people. I think that was an ethical stance. And so, you know, I always felt proud to work there because of those things. But sometime in the mid-2010s, you know, we did start to, and I was there and I was part of it, we did start to sort of reflect and amplify those things outwards as a way to appeal the younger generations. But I think in some ways, again, some aspects of it were acceptable. So, you know, featuring a more diverse and inclusive cast in our commercials, you know, not just women who are six feet tall and 102 pounds, I think is more welcoming to more women. So, you know, that is at the

Starting point is 00:27:59 beginnings of the body positivity movement, which I think now has turned a bit toxic and dangerous, possibly. But, you know, again, it's all in execution. But then sometime, you know, like, like I think it's great to see a woman who is by four and 135 pounds in ad. Yeah, I would agree. That's someone I can look at and go, that looks like me. I know kind of what I might look like in those jeans. But then somewhere in the late 2010s, it did start to go woke. And I think this is an attempt by, for whatever reason, corporate America seems to be now populated, at least on the coast, which is where a lot of major companies are, by people who at least pretend to be very left wing. I'm not even going to say whether they are.

Starting point is 00:28:45 And I think it's an attempt to profit off of millennial and Gen Z activism. You know, that's a cynical view, but it's truthful. I've been in the boardroom. You know, I think it's a shield from scrutiny. It's like the press loves it. You know, they love these left wing's dances and they champion and celebrate these leaders because of it. And they don't interrogate the business. I think Sam Bankman-Fried is a great example of that from

Starting point is 00:29:10 FTX, you know, he, and Elizabeth Holmes featured on every magazine cover pretending to be saving the world and nobody investigated the fact that their businesses were shams. And so, you know, I think it's, it sounds like a cynical view, but I think it's correct. And what I would like to see is, is, the other thing I will say is these leaders, there is a part of them, they love to be celebrated. It's not cool to be rich anymore. You're supposed to denounce your privilege. So this is their way of doing it, right? They pretend. they're saving the world and that they never meant to get really rich, which is false. You don't make $40 million about meaning to, you know. And in fact, at Levi's in 2020, we laid off 15% of the workforce and the CEO simultaneously cashed out $43 million in stock. And he said that the layoffs were done with empathy and that we will work or focus. So again, it's always really about enriching themselves, but shielding themselves from scrutiny. And that's where for me, the hypocrisy just gets too great to stand by and not say anything. And then it all intensified in the summer of 2020.

Starting point is 00:30:18 So that's when every company on the planet started to disavow their racism and their white privilege and pledged to make a difference by posting Black Squares on Instagram, but not really doing anything else. And to your point about, you know, doing things to save face or just having a facade of empathy and activism while different things are going on behind the scenes that the press isn't really care about. Like Levi's, you said at first, they decided not to manufacture out of China, but they do now, right? Like, I think I've noticed that plenty of Levi's things are made in China, right, even while

Starting point is 00:30:59 talking about social justice and equality here. It's an interesting point you make. Levi's actually doesn't manufacture in China. They did for a time and they pulled out. That's interesting. They do sell there. Okay. For some reason, I thought that some things I saw from.

Starting point is 00:31:18 They did. From Levi's were made in China. But I guess not. That's good. It's vanishingly small. If there is some, it's vanishingly small. They've quietly pulled out. I'm always excited about that.

Starting point is 00:31:28 I'm always excited when things are not made in China for the very reasons that they didn't want to manufacture out of China in the first place. It's a complicated process of supply chains because there's, you know, there's putting the product together there in factories, which Levi's doesn't do. But a good portion of the world's cotton is actually grown in China. And I can't say with certainty whether or not they're using cotton. And a lot of the world's organic cotton is grown. I think a huge percent of the world's organic cotton has grown in the Xinjiang province,

Starting point is 00:32:00 which is where the Uyghur slave labor is used. Yeah, it is a complicated process. But it would be great, even with all the complications for like the companies that do not just manufacturing China, but cater to China in so many ways, like the NBA, at least just have like a little bit of humility. to say, you know what, this is complicated? We understand there are human rights abuses here. That's why, you know, we're not, you know, shouting down people in the U.S. who don't agree with us ideologically.

Starting point is 00:32:27 But there's like no humility whatsoever. It's just you're on the wrong side if you don't agree with us, even as. No company, whether they manufacture there or not to protect themselves from the scrutiny that would come from manufacturing in China, no company wants to disavow the authoritarian in government in China because they do not want to sacrifice the potential profits that can be made there simply due to the size of the population and the ever-growing middle and upper class. And so Levi's, you know, we tried to walk a fine line there because we never wanted, if you do, you know, disavow the government's tactics, if you do say anything about the fact

Starting point is 00:33:07 that there are Uyghurs and forced labor camps, you will be boycotted in China and the consumers will not buy your product. So companies try to walk a line, which is what we saw with the NBA, right? They want to avail themselves of the billions of dollars. And so no one within the NBA can criticize the Chinese regime, which is, you know, exactly what we saw. It's all about money at the end of the day, which you know what? Always. Company needs to make a profit.

Starting point is 00:33:35 I'm not saying that they shouldn't, but maybe they should not talk about politics here then either if that's going to be their stance in China. Okay, I want to talk about. I do want to talk about your your book, which is amazing. But I want to talk about these studies that were recently published, one by NBC, the other one I saw published by Fox News, but there are studies that are just kind of being talked about in those outlets and your response to them. First, let's talk about this mask study. This was the first one. This is the first one that I saw. This is actually from Reason.

Starting point is 00:34:07 And this came out at the beginning of February. Interestingly, Reason.com says 12 trials in the review. 10 in the community and two among health care workers found that wearing masks in the community probably makes little or no difference to influenza-like or COVID-19-like illness transmission. Equally, the review found that masks had no effect on laboratory confirmed influenza or SARS-CoV2 outcomes. Five other trials showed no difference between one type of mask over another. Other studies that have tried to uncover the efficacy of mask requirements have tended to compare

Starting point is 00:34:39 one municipality with another without taking into account relevant. differences between groups. This, of course, is what David Swig. He wrote for the New Yorker a while ago, I think in 2021. And again, this is someone who probably considers himself on the left saying, you know what? Even these CDC studies saying that masks are so great in schools, once you dig into the studies, they don't actually prove that because they don't take it into account all the other factors. And this was one of the things that you talked about. Of course, we've talked about on this podcast that forcing kids to mask or daycare workers to mask is actually going to have more negative consequences than positive outcomes. And again, people are called crazy conspiracy theorist

Starting point is 00:35:22 anti-science, you know, magazelots or whatever for questioning this. And yet here we are. Yet again, studies showing that that's actually true. Yeah. The study you're referring to is the Cochran, it was published, it was called the Cochran study. And it's actually a meta-analysis of 78 studies, randomized control trials that have been done on mass. So there's not a new study in there. It just sort of puts together the 78 studies that includes a million people. And in all 78, as you just indicated, there was no discernible impact from mask wearing on adults in the community. So why we would think if adults, you know, and of course, the response from public health at this point and Michelle Lulensky is, well, they're just not wearing them right. Well, in 78 studies, if it doesn't

Starting point is 00:36:15 work in real life and it doesn't work, it's like telling somebody if you eat only broccoli for the next year, you'll lose weight. But if the person can't do that and eat only broccoli, then that's long an effect of dieting strategy. So it matters that in the real world, it doesn't work. And The only place that it ever, quote unquote, worked was in models, which are imaginary and in a lab with mannequins. Well, that's not real. That's not a randomized controlled trial. And the onus was always on the CDC and public health to prove that an intervention worked before making us do it because there are harm. And, you know, I have four children.

Starting point is 00:36:56 I know that my children, when they were two years old, even up to four or five years old, they didn't even put their shoes on the right feet. Sometimes they're wearing diapers still at two and three years old. How do we think they can wear a mask correctly in such a way that even if worn perfectly was going to stop or slow transmission? I mean, it's absurd on its face. And yet a two-year-old is the one who most needs to see faces, right? They're learning to talk. They're learning to emotionally connect. And the adverse impacts to me were clear all along.

Starting point is 00:37:26 And we are seeing tons of speech delays, developmental delays. And yet, even after the Cochrane study was published, elementary schools in Marin County re-implemented a mask mandate just a couple weeks ago. So they're just doubling down. It's just they, it's like the science now is just, you know, a tagline. And you pledge your allegiance to the science by wearing a mask. It doesn't matter if it works or not. And if you don't want to wear a mask, then you reveal yourself as, you know, of the other side. It's like, I know everyone's heard of virtual.

Starting point is 00:38:00 signaling and it is kind of virtue signaling but I think maybe an even more accurate description of what it is is empathy signaling. It's like I'm signaling my empathy by wearing a mask or encouraging people to wear a mask or saying the right thing posting the black square even if there is no evidence in in my life of me caring about these things for no evidence that this action that I'm doing actually mitigates any risk for anyone. At least I'm signaling empathy. At least I'm quote unquote doing something. And that seems to be the only thing people are. care about. Yeah, it doesn't even have to actually be empathetic. It just signals it. It's not empathetic to people who are hard of hearing who rely on lip reading. I mean, I have a friend who is

Starting point is 00:38:42 deaf. This has been a really horrible time for her. She stopped leaving the house for a year. She stopped leaving her house for an entire year. She had to quit her job because she dealt with the public and she couldn't speak to people and understand what they were saying. And people would tell her just wear a clear mask. Well, what does it do for her if she wears a clear mask? She's reading their lips. So unless we're going to require everyone. So, you know, it doesn't, it's not empathetic. It's not empathetic for children learning to speak. It's not empathetic for the heart of hearing. It's not empathetic for many, many children on the autism spectrum. It's not empathetic for children with disabilities. So it doesn't even have to actually be empathetic. It just sort of says I am and then you don't

Starting point is 00:39:26 have to do anything. And you know what? It's not that different from. woke capitalism, right? Like if you buy a t-shirt with a rainbow logo on it, you say I'm aligned with equality and the LGBTQ community, but you don't actually have to do anything. You just spend $12 on a t-shirt. Yep, exactly. It's lazy activism. It's not, I mean, it's hollow activism. It's not even real. My kids were born in 2019 and 2021, so right in the thick of it. And thankfully, I live in a conservative state where this wasn't required. And even if it was required, for a period of time. Like you really could walk into a store and you couldn't wear a mask.

Starting point is 00:40:04 And maybe no one would say anything. But it still affected our lives in traveling. You know, my oldest turned two during this time. And she was required to wear a mask when we, when we tried to fly to, you know, see my husband's family.

Starting point is 00:40:19 And we just didn't. You know, we couldn't do it. We couldn't go visit family in other states because I knew she wasn't going to wear a mask. She's two years old. I mean, as you said,

Starting point is 00:40:29 I think about all the things that you want your two-year-old to do that they just cannot do. And I had seen all those terrible, cruel videos of families being thrown off of planes because the two-year-olds wouldn't keep the mask on or a kid with special needs wouldn't keep the mask on. And so even for those of us who are in red states, I mean, it still affected our lives in tangible ways that these arbitrary requirements were even there. And now, like, are we going to get an apology? Are we going to hear any sort of vindication from the people who put these things on us? I doubt it. Yeah, I don't expect an apology anytime soon. I mean, one of the things that is striking that's happening right now, which you alluded to earlier,

Starting point is 00:41:12 is there is acknowledgement of the harms at this point. So there's acknowledgement that learning loss is actually real and that it's impacted low-income children, black children and brown children the most, which is what I had said would happen from the beginning. there is acknowledgement of the mental health impacts that kids, teenagers, teenage girls in particular, are depressed and anxious in greater numbers than we've ever seen before, which again was totally predictable. What there isn't is any desire to hold anyone accountable. And that's what I will continue to push for because these were policy choices. Let's be clear. The way that it's

Starting point is 00:41:50 written about at this point is, well, COVID did this to our kids. No. COVID. didn't do it to our kids, the restrictions that were policies put in place by Democratic leaders, like my former governor, Gavin Newsom, as well as, you know, public health bureaucrats, the CDC, these are policy choices that were made. And there were leaders that made different choices all across Europe. There's not another country in the world that massed two-year-olds, not another country in the world. And then you have, of course, you know, red states where schools all open by the fall. And the outcomes were no worse, in some cases better. In fact, when you normalize per age, et cetera.

Starting point is 00:42:31 When we look at Florida, the outcomes in Florida and California are exactly the same when you normalize per age. Obviously, Florida has a large elderly population. But Ron DeSantis was very aggressive in getting the schools open. And he did. And they're not seeing the same learning loss or impact to the economy, you know, if we go outside of children and, you know, from lockdowns, et cetera. So I agree with you. We will not get an apology. In fact, they're pleas for amnesty because the rationale, and I'm sure you saw the piece in the Atlantic pleading for amnesty, the rationale there being, well, we didn't know it was the fog of war.

Starting point is 00:43:08 Good people, you know, maybe didn't make quite the right decision, but they did it for the right reasons, whereas the implication in the pieces that people like me are bad people advocating for the right thing for the wrong reason. So I'm still a bad person. So I deserve no amnesty. And I want to talk about the immunity, the immunity piece in just a second. But what you're saying, it reminded me of this Thomas Soul quote that I just find to be true. So often he said, it is hard to imagine a more stupid and more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong. And I would add to that who actually get paid for being wrong.

Starting point is 00:44:01 Fauci, Wollenski, all of these public health ministers that are making these decisions. Not only will they not get fired, will they not be held accountable for making decisions that had such terrible consequences on so many vulnerable populations, but they will actually probably fail upward because of it. That's a really bad way of making decisions. Yeah, I mean, I'm nothing to add. I couldn't agree more, you know. the heads of the teachers unions harmed children.

Starting point is 00:44:33 Oh, yes. You know, Randy Weinbarton was very vocal and, you know, took her platform wherever she could to insist that schools stay closed and colluded with the CDC to keep them closed when they were going to make recommendations that would have allowed them to open. Yep. Rachel Levine did the same thing in Pennsylvania and then got into the Biden administration. Okay.

Starting point is 00:44:54 I want to hear your commentary on this NBC report that says immunity acquired from a COVID infection is as protective as vaccination against severe illness in death study finds. Infection acquired immunity cut the risk of hospitalization and death from a COVID reinfection by 88 percent for at least 10 months the study found. This is something Alex Jennifer that I heard was a wild conspiracy theory. I saw a headline after headline that this was a right wing conspiracy theory that there is no such thing, Rochelle Wollinsky said, CDC director, as natural immunity. What's your take?

Starting point is 00:45:33 It was a lie from the outset. It was obvious it was a lie. Is that true for any other disease? If you've had measles, you have antibodies and you have immunity. Now, COVID operates differently. It's a little more like the flu. You can get the flu and then you can get it again the next year or the next year. You know, there is no 100% immunity.

Starting point is 00:45:51 But that was a lie in service of Vax update. It was a law uptake. It was a lie in service of vaccine passports. it was a lie in service of big pharma because at this point almost everybody in the country in the world has had COVID and if they had to acknowledge natural immunity, they wouldn't sell as many vaccines. It's really that simple. This is from, it's from the Lancet. The study is titled Pass SARS-CoV-2 infection protection against reinfection, a systematic review in meta-analysis. The analysis showed that protection from past infection to any symptomatic disease was high for ancestral alpha-beta and delta

Starting point is 00:46:28 the variance, but was substantially lower for the Omicron, B-A-1 variant. So I'll link it in the description of this episode. People can go read it for themselves if they would like to. The point is, I didn't expect for everyone, including the so-called scientific community, to know all of these things at the outset. What I did expect or hope for was a little bit of humility and a little less cruelty towards people saying, you know, that just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. and the risks to some of these measures seem to outweigh the benefits.

Starting point is 00:46:59 So let's pump the brakes. And that's what we didn't see. I mean, you lost your job because of it. And I don't think you're going to be getting reparations anytime soon. No, I don't either. And the number of people who lost their jobs because they didn't take the vaccine, you know, because they had had COVID. And they, nurses, doctors, you know, people at Levi's that I worked with, you know,

Starting point is 00:47:23 there were people that lost their job. there was until very recently a vaccine mandate there. Colleges still have booster mandates. Young people who least need this vaccine, who have all had COVID at this point, which means they have some measure of immunity. There are many universities that still have a booster requirement. And this is for young people.

Starting point is 00:47:43 And the cohort of young people, young men in particular are most at risk from the vaccine. We've seen myocarditis, pericarditis. And so, you know, we're forcing, we just see. to be obsessed with children and young people and placing the onus of this, you know, disease and on them. And I don't understand it. It's completely inverted from how society is supposed to operate, which is we are here as adults to further the development of young people and not use them as our shield. And that's not what's happening. I mean, college students are literally some of the last people in the country required to be vaccine boosted. It just shows you also the bigger picture

Starting point is 00:48:22 of our inverted and perverted values that we have as a country, I think selfishness and a lot of ways has been elevated as chief virtue. And that's part of why empathy signaling and virtue signaling is so popular because it's really more about you and what you get from things rather than about other people. That's a whole other conversation that we could have. But I want to hear a little bit about your book. Levi's Unbuttoned, the woke mob took my job, but gave me my voice. What are people going to get out of this when they read it?

Starting point is 00:48:56 Well, what I hope they get, and you know, I cover a lot of the ground that we just covered. I do sort of analyze woke capitalism and how that emerged and kind of where it's going. And what I think the solution is, which is what I would call normie capitalism. But it's also a memoir about being a woman in the corporate world for close to 30 years. But what I hope people get out of it, it really is an exhortation to screw up your courage a little bit and say, call out. the lies. You know, I know people are scared to do it. Sixty-two percent of Americans feel they can't really say what they think. I think there's a lot of people that agree with, that agreed with me this whole time on a lot of this that agreed with you, but they were too afraid to say it. But if we'd

Starting point is 00:49:37 all stood up and said something, we would have stood together. And the fact is, then the schools would have opened sooner and we wouldn't have harmed children. And so it's really just an exhortation to stand up and say what you believe. Even if I don't believe with you, I believe, even if I don't believe the same thing as you, I want you to say what you do believe. And I will stand by your right to say it. I will defend that. Yes. And we need people to do it more. You know, the day after I publicly resigned, three members of the San Francisco School Board were recalled decisively. 70% of San Francisco voters recalled them for failing to open schools. when I was leading rallies, they were sparsely attended. People were afraid to show up and say that they had this view. They weren't afraid at the ballot box when it was anonymous. If they'd shown up at the rallies, if they resisted, we wouldn't have harmed kids. So it really is just, you know, it's about the need to get back to open debate and dissent in this country so we can discuss things to get to some agreement and to some version of truth that is not just government-issued talking points. Because what we deal with,

Starting point is 00:50:44 now as truth, it's propaganda. Yeah. Yep. There's something that we say on our show that you exemplify so well, and that is to share the arrows. So when you see someone stand up, whether it's standing up to the school board, sending up to the local government, standing up to the school administration, whatever it is, about a policy that they know is wrong, that they know is unjust, stating something that's unpopular on social media, and you see that person being maligned,

Starting point is 00:51:10 being bullied, being unfairly treated because of their stance, rather than the, saying, which this is what most people do, ooh, I'm glad that's not me. Now I'm not going to speak up. I'm not going to say anything. Maybe I'll kind of pat them on the back privately to let them know I'm thinking about them, but I'm not going to join them. What is a lot more powerful, and I can totally understand that this is not easy to do, but it's to stand up and say, you know what, whatever arrows you're throwing to her, you can throw my way too. I'll take them. Because when that happens, courage can really be contagious. And that is, as you said, when things make a difference, you understood that your role as a leader in that company, even though it ended your

Starting point is 00:51:49 relationship with that company, was to give cover to people that didn't have as much influence as you did. And I just want to say thank you because you're still doing that. You did not have to do what you're doing now. It would have been a lot easier for you to just be quiet. And you didn't. So I just want to say thanks. And I'm sure there are a lot of parents out there listening that also are grateful for you that you kept pushing because maybe it seems like people didn't listen to you. And you in the moment, but what flap of the butterfly wing actually, you know, moved the needle and changed the game because now a lot of those vaccine mandates, they are gone. Now NBC is brave enough to put out a headline like that. It would not have happened if not for a bunch of Jennifer

Starting point is 00:52:31 stays out there doing what you did. So I just wanted to say I'm grateful for that. That's great kind. Yeah, I mean, you know, look, we had little wins along the way. It sounds small, but the playground's open due to parent pushback in San Francisco. Now, it took us nine months, which is ridiculous that outdoor playgrounds were closed for nine months. But it did happen. And so I had faith that if I kept trying and kept pushing and maintain my calm diplomacy that I could make a difference, it just, you know, the clock got the better of me.

Starting point is 00:53:04 And I lost my job before that was possible. But I don't regret it. It was the right thing to do. And I could not have looked myself in the mirror. And I do think over time, we will bring more people along. And I think, you know, if I'm making predictions, I think it's a long time from now. But I think 10 years from now, it's going to be hard to find anyone that said they vociferously supported school closures and restrictions to children. They're all going to pretend they didn't.

Starting point is 00:53:29 And you know what? I welcome. I welcome them. Let's make sure it never happens again. Yes. And amen. Well, thank you so much, Jennifer. I really encourage everyone to go out and get her book, Levi's Unbuttoned.

Starting point is 00:53:39 We'll put the link in the description and all of that. in the description of this episode. Jennifer, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time. People can also follow you on Twitter and all that good stuff too, right? Yep, just my name. I always used my real name.

Starting point is 00:53:55 Always did. That's probably where I, my first mistake. But yep, I'm on Twitter. Yeah, well, that's part of the courage. So thank you so much, Jennifer. Really nice to meet you, Beth. Thank you for having me. Hey, this is Steve Deast.

Starting point is 00:54:14 If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news

Starting point is 00:54:25 of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people

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Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 757 | New Studies Prove We Were Right About Masks & Immunity | Guest: Jennifer Sey

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