Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 777 | On Duggar Theology, Josh’s Arrest, & Media Lies | Guests: Jinger Duggar Vuolo & Jeremy Vuolo

Episode Date: March 27, 2023

Today we’re joined again by Jinger Duggar Vuolo, author of "Becoming Free Indeed: My Story of Disentangling Faith from Fear," and Jeremy Vuolo to discuss their theology deep dive into Bill Gothard's teachings and how Jinger found herself in gospel truth. In her new book, Jinger shares her theological journey from following a fundamentalist leader to finding freedom in Christ. We discuss the immediate response to the book and some criticisms she has faced because of it. Jeremy shares how his upbringing shaped their theology after they met, and we talk about their study of the Duggars' traditional belief system and Jinger's realization that this theology was not entirely biblical. We also discuss Jinger's brother Josh, who is currently in prison, and how his actions, as well as the media portrayal of Christianity as a whole because of his actions, led Jinger and Jeremy to speak out for the true gospel. We also look at the lies spread about Jessa Duggar Seewald's miscarriage a few weeks ago, which many anti-Christian news sources claimed was an abortion. How do these lies affect Jinger, and how do Jinger and Jeremy cope with this media scrutiny? --- Timecodes: (01:26) Interview begins / response to book (05:40) Jeremy’s background & thoughts on TLC show (09:14) Theological differences (14:35) Bill Gothard’s teachings (27:44) Marrying Jeremy and scrutiny (30:06) Josh Duggar & real Christianity (42:06) Jessa Duggar Seewald’s miscarriage & media lies (45:40) Motherhood (48:30) Reverting to old theology (52:55) Advice for those confronting their theology (58:33) Giveaway winners! --- Today's Sponsors: Good Ranchers — change the way you shop for meat today by visiting GoodRanchers.com/ALLIE and use promo code 'ALLIE' for $20 off your first order. Subscribe in March and you can get free bacon for a year. Also this month, you can potentially win over $2000 in free meat (free meat for a year!) by filling out your March Meatness bracket at goodranchers.com/march. Patriot Mobile — go to PatriotMobile.com/ALLIE or call 878-PATRIOT and use promo code 'ALLIE' to get free activation! --- Relevant Episodes: Ep 745 | Life as a Duggar & Letting Go of Legalism | Guest: Jinger Duggar Vuolo https://apple.co/3zgYosB Ep 176 | Jeremy Vuolo https://apple.co/3KbcxxM Ep 762 | No, Jessa Duggar Seewald Did Not Have an Abortion https://apple.co/3njxa1X --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day's show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Ginger Dugger Volo and her husband Jeremy Volo are joining us today in studio. This is a continuation of the first interview I had with Ginger a couple months ago about her new book, Becoming Free Indeed. This is about her story, her upbringing, the theology of the Dougner. and learning what the real liberating gospel is. So we'll be getting more deeply into what it was like growing up as a dougar, what that theology really looks like, what the gospel truly is, but we'll also be talking about some tough subjects, like how her brother Josh's conviction

for consuming child sex abuse material affected her, what her relationship is like with her family today. You're going to be so edified by Ginger. And both Ginger, and Jeremy's love for Christ and love for the gospel. Also, stick around for the very end of this episode where we will finally be announcing our giveaway winners. And also just one last thing, please bear with me, as I am suffering from a bout of allergies. Thankfully, I am not the one mostly talking in today's episode. It's going to be an amazing episode.

You're going to love it. It's brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use promo code Allie at checkout. That's Good Ranchers.com. Code Allie. Jeremy Ginger, thanks so much for joining me on the couch. My second guest ever in my new studio.

You're matching. Thanks for having us. Yeah, we planned this. We just decided to match your new set. I love it. I love it. Thanks. Okay, tell me what the response has been to your book.

I mean, I've seen you so many places since I first talked to you in January. It seems like it's just like making waves. It's been insane, really. I think we've had so many amazing responses. good and bad. So I mean, you always have that when you put something out. But I feel like in this season, it's been more encouraging than anything because so many people have been able to relate to my journey that I've been coming out of Bill Gothard's teaching and this bad theology. And a lot of them have been in something similar, even if it wasn't Bill Gothard's teaching and have been

helped by the book. So it's been really, really well worth it. Yeah. Tell me about some of the negative reactions like what's been some criticism yeah i think um it's interesting anytime you put something out there and you're in a public place you know that there is going to be um pushback and there's going to be some people who hate it and so i've experienced a little bit of that um but like i said more more of it has been positive which i was surprised yeah how much positive feedback I've found. Negative from people who like Bill Gothard and think that his teachings are good, or where is it coming from? You know, I think some people really hoped that this book would be something other than it was. They thought maybe Ginger will start to walk away from Christianity,

and they hoped for that. Then we also had, you know, a couple of people who are still in these teachings of Bill Gothard's wanted me to not say anything. And so I know that that is always going to be there because a lot of them would view him as like a prophet sent from God to tell us this truth. And so I can see how they would view that speaking out against him. So a couple different places you've had pushback. Was there ever a time? And again, people can go back and listen to our first conversation where you talk about you guys meeting. and you kind of understanding, oh, wow, what Bill Gothard Todd is not actually the gospel. This is not what it looks like to glorify God.

Was there ever a time, though, during that period where you did question your faith altogether? Did you ever say, is any of this real if what I grew up with is it real? You know, it's interesting. I looked at that season where I was coming out of those teachings. God used Jeremy in such a helpful way, like just to, he had to go through 60 plus hours of those teachings, which I think we talked about before. But in that season, because I was going to the Word of God, I was a believer at that time. I was saved at the age of 14. So my heart, all I wanted to know was what does God's word actually say? And once I realized that these teachings that Bill

gothards said were Bible, they weren't Bible, that for me was a shift because then I started going back to those, um, the seminars and it like examining it according to the word of God and saw, okay, this does not line up. And then that process and that journey actually was, it was hard because yeah, you have that, that pause of like, oh, well then what is true? I need to know because I love Jesus. So I did not go to it looking like, okay, how can I just tear my faith apart, like the deconstruction movement? But for me, I was coming at this looking and saying, okay, how can I see who God truly is?

So going to God's word, that was what gave me comfort and joy in that season, even though it was really difficult. So I wasn't like trying to throw everything off. I was just looking for answers in God's word. Yeah. And one of the most fascinating parts I thought of our conversation was you explaining how you met Jeremy and what that kind of dating process was like and how you had to kind of as part of what your dad wanted, you had to sit through these 60 hours of Bill Gothard's teaching. So before I hear your perspective on that, tell me a little bit about your faith background. You didn't grow up the same way that Ginger did. No, not at all. I grew up in a reformed Baptist home. My dad was a pastor. And so definitely grew up in the church, hearing the Word of God every week. You're not a Calvinist. Are you, Jeremy? Yeah, I happen to be. I do happen to be a Calvinist. Oh my goodness. That was interesting because that was as much as I was having to kind of learn about Ginger's faith and worldview. I think her and her family had to learn about mine too. So it was.

It was like this interesting, we were like informing each other. And the Calvinism question was a fascinating one. A lot of those conversations about Calvinism revolved around what Calvinism actually isn't. Yeah. And trying to help people understand that it's just, you know. So there were some bad impressions from. Yeah, there was. There was, you know, the C word, the Calvinism word was scary because, you know, people had certain misconceptions of what that meant you believed. But my background was just in a reformed Baptist home. Dad's the godliest man I know, my hero, my mom, an amazing woman who was a professional violinist, chose to stay home and raise me and my brother and sister.

Really sweet, wonderful upbringing, but definitely in the faith. I had those years where I had to kind of discover my faith for myself. So the last couple years of high school, first couple years of college, things got a bit a bit crazy at times, but the Lord was just kind of allowing me to walk through some things so that I knew why I believed, what I believed. So by the time I met Ginger, I was pretty established. I was pastoring a church in Texas. And so, yeah, definitely from a different background.

So walking into actually where we met in Texas was an IBLP family camp, family conference. That is the Institute in Basic Life, Prince. So it's a Bill Gothard conference for families to come to. And so I kind of walked into that unaware of what that was. But then I met this pretty girl. Yeah. And you all met through a mutual friend. And had you watched her on TLC?

Like, were you aware of what the Duggers were kind of funny actually? I was aware. I had seen some of the show. My pastor actually in Texas, his family would watch it a lot. Yeah. And I remember actually seeing like Ben and Jessa on the cover of a People magazine and taking pictures and sending it to that pastor's kids like, oh, look who I saw on the magazine. Yeah.

And that's before I ever met anyone. So I was aware I'd actually kind of make fun of the show a lot. I just thought it was like silly reality, you know. But that changed when I. He joined the show. Yeah. Yeah, that was ironic. I mean, man, never saw that coming.

But. Yeah. Yeah, so we met and it took a little while for us to, I mean, we started having a mutual interest in each other. But that was at the start of 2015, I met Ginger. So you were aware then that there would be theological differences just from what you saw on the show or not really? So didn't watch the show that in depth. I just kind of saw a conservative Christian family. Yeah.

I think that's what most people probably saw. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't really start to realize there was theological differences until. meeting actually more of like her family but then friends around the family. And we talked about Calvinism some and I went, oh, interesting. Okay. So they, you know, might have a different view on that. I did not know about Bill Gothard until I started listening to his actual seminars. And even at the start, it was kind of like a, it was like a slow introduction. I thought, okay, this guy's got

some interesting things to say. But then we really started to get into the, uh, the, seminars and then we started our relationship and we're continuing to listen to those and then started listening together. And that's when a lot of the deeper theological things started coming out. And how quickly after meeting did you realize, well, there are probably going to be some differences here that he needs to know about, like even before your dad said that he needed to sit through these gothirt teachings. For me, I knew that anyone coming into our family would probably, if they were from outside of Phil Gothard's teachings, like they never grew up listening to the seminars, they would need to know what we believed, what I believed, because I thought these

convictions I was holding were based in the Bible. So those outward standards of like, you know, only wearing skirts and courtship being the only way to honor God and avoiding music with drums, all of those things that I thought were so big finances, never going into debt for even a home, anything. Those were my core values. And so I thought whoever comes on the scene, if they're outside of these teachings, they will have to at some point, I'm going to tell, you know, Jeremy, when he came on the scene, I was like, he's so different. It's kind of scary to think about, you know, courting him at that time, I guess you'd say. But it's interesting because I remember telling my mom, I said, I feel like I went on this mission trip and came back and told her, I said, I feel safe with him. And this was before we were talking.

I just had interest in him. And I said, it's not because of any outward stuff. I said, it's just his heart. Like I can see, I can see that he loves Jesus. He loves the Word of God. He knows the Word of God. And that stood out to me. And I said because of his relationship with Jesus, that's what makes me know that I would be safe with him if we were in a relationship.

So it was interesting because I never would have said that years before. It would have been something that had made me afraid. Like I would have been very scared and I never would have pursued a relationship with somebody outside of IBLP because I thought that those principles were the way to success. And if you didn't have all of these teachings, you were not going to be okay. Yeah. And that's something that we talked about last time that you feared that so much that if you broke one of those principles or rules, it wasn't just, oh, maybe things wouldn't work out, but that you would, I mean, something bad could imminently happen to you, right? Right. I thought maybe I could be killed in the car accident if I went to broomball to play a sport with my siblings when I thought, okay, I'm supposed to stay home and read my Bible for two hours. Or maybe I'm supposed to not go somewhere, not do something. or like it leaves it leaves you in a place where you're very superstitious you just think that God is out to get you yeah and it's such a a crippling thing because I I just really did not know I was like I read the word of God okay the word of God has these answers but because Bill

Godthard would teach these teachings on top of it I felt like man there is just there is no way I can ever know what God expects in me fully yeah um so that was it was really sad. It's so interesting that you always kind of felt in danger. And then this rule breaker that you met, Jeremy actually made you feel safe. And that's interesting because you thought that these rules were keeping you safe. And then this person who wasn't keeping all of those so-called rules actually made you feel safe, which I think there's something to be said about the Holy Spirit's working in that. Yeah. Yeah. It was a neat thing to see because I got to see for Shan like his heart.

And in that setting, like you can you can see people who walk with Jesus, but I still would like almost judge them because I would think, oh, you just don't know the principles. You don't know these. So you're not as really, you're not as holy as we are or you are going to bring, you know, there's going to be disaster in your life and then you're going to turn to the principles. So I would always look at people like that. And it just wasn't the case with Jeremy. Yeah. And this is when you all were still kind of friends. This is 2014. 15. 15. Okay. And then once you all actually started dating or what your family called courting, this was about 2015, right? And then when Ginger's dad said, well, okay, you got to sit through the 60 hours, these 60 hours of Bill Gothard's teachings. Tell me about that. What was that like? You said at first, it was like, okay, he's got some interesting things. But. Yeah, so he just asked me to listen to, I think he asked me to listen to the basic seminar, which is kind of the introduction to Bill Gothard's theology.

I may have started listening to the advanced seminar accidentally. And so the advanced seminar, when I listen to the first three or four sessions, he's an interesting teacher. He's got a, he's very easy to listen to. Yeah. And so he pulls in with stories. He pulls in with problems like facing the society. So he was talking about humanism and how humanism doesn't satisfy the human problem and the human heart. And he was showing how we need to go to God's word to satisfy, you know, our longings and to solve all these problems in society.

So he had some interesting things to say initially. And that was honestly my initial reaction was like, okay, he's got some interesting philosophical ideas. but I knew pretty quickly that this guy wasn't teaching the Bible. He was using the Bible to kind of accomplish his goal. Like, I want to talk about identity. So here's a verse about identity. And then he would talk, but he wouldn't, you know, I grew up in churches where they would go verse by verse explaining the Bible.

So for me, a Bible teacher is you just open the word and tell me what it says. So I remember telling Ginger in one of our first. conversations, she asked me about like the seminars. Like, what do you think about him? And I just said, yeah. So he's got some interesting things to say. He's not a Bible teacher, but he's got some like interesting philosophy. And I was even then starting to realize that some of the stuff he was saying would be problematic. I just didn't know to what extent. Yeah. But I think that caught her off guard. You know, definitely did. So when he said he's not a Bible teacher where you're like, what are you talking? talking about this guy is the best Bible teacher in the whole world. You're just learning of him. Don't worry. Yeah. So it's

interesting because that was just a couple of seminars in and it kind of starts out okay. Like he gives a decent like gospel message, you know. If you're not listening too close. Yeah, you have to like really be on guard. So he gives a couple of things where like kind of nice. But then the further in you get, it starts to get really crazy to the point where he tells a woman before he come to Jesus, you need to do my three steps because you can't bring Jesus into this mess. And that's where it was like, we paused that and we were like, wait, what did he say? And I was so shocked because I was like, how did I not hear this stuff before? How did I not hear what level of teaching he was giving us that was just totally outside of scripture, totally stuff that I would have rejected growing up?

I just didn't see it. I remember at one point listening, he had a very fascinating. and honestly like a really successful approach. He would start, you know, he's speaking to people who want to follow Jesus. Most of them are, you know, earnest. So he would give a problem. Then he would present like one or two scriptures

and say, here we're going to discover how he solved that problem. And then he would lecture for 45, 50, 60, sometimes 70 minutes and totally leave those scriptures behind. So he's not teaching them. And that at the end, and Ginger talks a lot about this in her book to she would, he would, have the people vow to keep those scriptures. And a lot of it was based on stories. So he was such a good

storyteller. He had, he would, he would come up with all of these, um, like stories that would grip you. And you think, okay, this person's business was destroyed because they didn't realize somebody was selling alcohol at their business. And therefore, that guy gets cancer and his family falls apart. And it's all because this business had a liquor license and the guy didn't know. So you just have like all of these teachings that are constantly getting you. Like it gets your place with your emotions. So you feel like, oh no, that could happen to me. That's like the superstition.

Yeah. Connecting one event to a consequence that is actually unrelated. It is totally unrelated. But he would always find, he said like correlation and causation. These these things play hand in hand. So he'd say you have to watch out, you know, at every turn. And it's interesting because then. at the end of those stories, that is when he would have you make the vow to God to keep whatever

teaching he had just made. And what did those vows entail? Was it just you speaking out loud? So he would say, now we're going to have everyone who wants to make this vow. You make this vow before God. And I want you to raise your hand. And he said, oh, that's so good. All over the stadium.

We see hands all over the stadium. And it was kind of like, I remember going to the seminars that he would have on video, actually every year from 12 once you turn 12 you're allowed to go so we would drive two hours every day to Tulsa for a week and we would go to these seminars and I remember like sitting there and he would whenever that would come up I would be like okay I want to make this vow to something more like just like if you would have said hey how about you just purpose to read your Bible for five minutes every day well there's nothing wrong with that I feel like as Christians we should be reading our Bibles But he would have you make a vow to God.

And then he would say make a vow to pray for five minutes. And then he'd say, you need to keep this vow. Otherwise, disaster is going to come to you. Like after you just made this vow. So he has like stadiums full of people and they're freaking out. And so it's not out of love for God that you'd want to do these things. He was very comfortable placing burdens on you that you couldn't carry and that you couldn't keep. Yeah, which is exactly why Jesus can.

came to relieve us of those burdens that we couldn't carry. So you weren't even getting the gospel. And it's not even just like the fear of messing up that's motivating you. It's also kind of like this self-righteousness that if I do keep the vow, it's because I'm awesome. It's not because God left me. It's because, wow, I'm so good at this. That's exactly it, Ali. It's interesting because there would be so many families that got into this. And they would feel like, okay, we're doing really good. And on the outside, their families looked perfect. And they were the poster kids for ATI.

If it was just a couple people, students, or if it was an entire family, they would become like at conferences. They would be up on the stage. They would be presenting everything. And we were like, wow, look at them. If only we could keep the principals like they do. And so it does become performance-based. Yeah.

And then tell me a little bit as you're going through these courses. I know you said there were some things. That's a little weird. But tell me about the red flags that you kind of felt like, okay, I got to talk to Ginger about this to make sure we're on the same page. Yeah, I think it was his picking and choosing how to use the Bible. So he would go back to the blood laws and the old covenant and start applying those to marriages, starting to tell. A single dude. Never married.

Never had kids telling you everything that you can do. So that was symptomatic of a big problem. And you're just so people know what we're talking about. like you're talking about like the cleansing laws in the Old Testament. You can't have sex during menstruation. So you're watching this. Oh, yeah. Or after giving birth, you have to wait 40 days or you have to wait 30 days here.

And I'm going, hold on, man, you're reading this all wrong. Yes. You don't understand what even the old covenant was pointing to. Yeah. So I could give you a lot of examples. I think the biggest thing I realized, and this is what we started talking about early in our relationship was he doesn't understand the new birth. Mr. Gother did not understand regeneration.

And even somebody asked me who was a leader in that group, a leader, turned to me at one point in conversation and said, Jeremy, you keep saying this word regeneration. What is that? Wow. And I realized Mr. Gauthored doesn't understand what conversion is. So he understands what keep these rules and your life will be better, which is Phariseism. It's legalism. Yeah. And so that was the biggest red flag.

And then that would come up all over the place. So what was so cool, though, is as I was talking about this or Ginger and I were going through it, I wouldn't share all of my concerns with her. I would be watching this. And then we'd watch it together. And she's the one who's going, wait a second. What did he just say? That's a problem.

And that gave me comfort seeing Ginger like, Ginger got it. She understood. She knew that Christianity is a relationship with a living God. It's not a set of rules you throw on and then you're perfect. And she says she felt safe with me. I felt safe with her. Even though as I was realizing how problematic this theology was, I saw a young woman who loved God, loved other people, wanted to live for him and follow him.

And that gave me a safety to know, hey, we can work through this stuff as our relationship goes on. But I know who this woman is in her heart. Yeah. I didn't have this fear that she was just doing this outward performance because that's terrifying. Because if someone's just performing outwardly, you don't know who really they are and what's actually going to come out. Yeah.

And so I felt, I felt safe with her. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principle. faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. I think why Bill Gothard or anyone who does the same thing that he did, why they're so enticing. It's not just because they're dynamic. They're good storytellers and all of that, of course, but also because there is some truth to it. Like, you apply these principles to your life. Your life probably will be better than if you're a drug addict, then promiscuous. If you wait to have sex until you get married, it's going to be better than being promiscuous before marriage. If you, you know, don't get drunk. If you do all of these godly principles, your life probably will avoid a lot of the disasters that it would fall into. engage in this kind of behavior, but it sounds like it was, one, the legalism that if you vow

to do these things, then you will be righteous. It's not Jesus's righteousness that becomes yours. You still have to earn it. And then also connecting those things to these superstitious, uncorrelated punishments. It's like, did he not understand regeneration and renewal? Or did he just think, well, that's not really helpful to what I want, which is to kind of maintain power or prominence or whatever because if you keep people kind of subdued with fear, then you can continue to get them to come to your conferences and buy your curriculum and things like that. So I don't know. Yeah, I think it definitely was for kids in that system, they would be controlled by the fear

and kept there by the fear. And so like you said, yeah, your life could be better on the outside for a while, but what's on the inside will come out. And so I think that's where he didn't really. realized that was going to happen. I mean, he probably did. But the families getting into it did not think about that. They thought, okay, the outwards okay with our kids. They're going to be fine. And all the while, their hearts weren't changed. So yeah, the regeneration wasn't there. But I think Bill Gothard, he was doing these things probably for his own gain. Yeah. And I think the deceiver is also

deceived. So I think there was a degree where Godthard, in his deception of others, was deceived himself. Yeah. So where do you draw that line? I don't know. Right. But it's a scary mix of self-deception and then intentional deception of others to manipulate and control.

Yeah. So as you all advanced in your relationship, you got engaged and I'm sure some people saw the changes in you, which was really just even better understanding the gospel. Maybe as, wow, Ginger's really changed. She's really abandoned how we grew up. And then you'll move to a big city. And so in your life started to look a little bit different. Like, was there any of that from the people that you loved or even just your community of this is betrayal or this is rebellion?

I'm sure that I know some did think that maybe, you know, marrying Jeremy would mean me leaving the gospel, leaving what I knew was true. And then others, it was just, I think some of those standards. that I had held to for so many years, like only wearing skirts when I started wearing pants, there were people who were very saddened and grieved by that. And it's understandable because in that setting, when everything, your righteousness is a modesty standard, like, yeah, you're going to freak out if Ginger starts wearing pants because that's so immodest and wears her heart before God. Right. So I can see how people in that setting would think that. that. And then, yeah, like moving to Los Angeles, where we are now, it's interesting because

people would say the same of that. Like, you're in such an evil city. There's so much sin there. How could you live there? But I think there's a missing element of like realizing, okay, well, you can look beyond those things and see, okay, are we still walking with God? Do our heart's desire to live holy lives before God, to love the Lord? And, um, I can say that it's had how many would just look on the outside. Yeah. And totally miss the heart of where we are and where we're walking with the Lord. Yeah.

So, yeah, we had a lot of interesting reactions. Yeah. And that goes back to something that you said a little bit ago, is that applying the principles or the rules of Bill Gothard could make you look good from the outside and allow other people and not even just other people. but oneself to ignore what's going on in the inside. And your brother, Josh, I mean, he was raised with all the same principles, the principles of purity, the principles of modesty, fidelity, all of those things.

And yet we know kind of what's happened or what's come out over the past few months. So just like tell us a little bit about that. What has that been like for you? Is that an example of the legalism not really going into the heart? Or what is that? Yeah, you know, it's really hard to like talk about that for one, but I see like with my brother, there has been the same, it is the same heart of going to these standards, putting up all of these outward things to make your heart look good before others. And I think that is really why I wrote this book was in that time when my brother was about to be a lot. arrested, I was looking at all of this and I was thinking, man, the glory of God is just,

it's going to be dragged through the dirt because people think this is what is, you know, he's claimed to be a Christian. Yeah. And he had up all these outward things that made him look good. But when everything falls apart and no one's saying anything, we have to speak up for the glory of God. And so that's where I thought, we want to make a distinction between like putting on rules and what true, the heart of true Christianity is.

that we're not going to come to God with anything. Like we're not bringing our religion into this, like in the outward standards of what Bill Gothard would say, put on all these standards. You're going to have an amazing family. You're going to turn out well. This is Christianity. But the true heart of the gospel is when we see that we are sinners in need of a

Savior, we repent of our sins and believe in Christ that we will be saved. And that regeneration, though, is a transformation that happens when it comes from the inside out it's something that god does it's a work of god and i think that was missing in this theology and so you thought okay if i just pray a prayer i'm going to be fine and you saw so many of these families in the system where situations like my brothers were happening over and over and i knew many families who were like that and it just it's so sad because you're promised this guarantee of success. You think everything's going to be okay. But in the end, it is not going to be okay because if you're relying on your own works or feeling good about yourself because you're

going to church or any of those things, it will never stop your flesh. It will never be able to keep you from sin. Only God can do that. Yeah. I can't imagine how difficult that must have been to see your brother, a family member, be convicted of something that egregious. And then on top of that, you've got people saying, not just this is the problem with this kind of theology or this is the problem with legalism or so-called purity culture, but this is the problem with Christianity. Christianity pushes this kind of thing. That's why he consumed this kind of material. That's why he was accused of doing those things in the past. It's all because of Christianity. And that's when you saw that, the conflation between what you agree was bad legalistic theology and the conflation

of the bad behavior of Josh with the gospel, with Christianity, with scripture, that's when you were like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I need to draw some lines of distinction here. And I think one of those things was like within Bill Gothard's setting, there's so much of that talk about purity, about keeping yourself pure and almost viewing like even talking about sex with your kids or like all of that at appropriate ages and like about how your bodies are changing that is totally pushed out so there's not even a healthy view of like okay marriage is a gift from God that's to be enjoyed within um within marriage or to be able to enjoy this but there's such a focus on pushing out all of that as almost like evil even attraction there were so many

focuses on like, okay, now we have to make these single service commitments. Bill Gothard was big into that. He would push these single service commitments to God. And you would have 20 year olds making these commitments for 10 years. You'd have young kids who are making it older people making it for 10 years. And it was like, what are we doing here? Commitments to he would, he would have them make a commitment to not get married for 10 years, not get married for five years so you can focus on the Lord without distraction. If you're young, and you're like 15, okay. Like if it's five years, 10 years, whatever, like, that's okay.

When you're, when you are 30 and you're making single service commitments, there's a problem there. He wanted them to abstain from, from thinking about another person they're attracted to. So that almost was looked at as sin. Like, if you have attraction, I would feel guilty if I was attracted to a young man who was godly, who had good character. I would feel so guilty. And I would never talk to my sisters about it because I was like, that's almost sinful. So you go to this purity culture and think this is how I'm going to glorify God.

And the problem with that is when nothing's talked about, there's going to be curiosity there. Kids will get around anything that you put up for them. So having natural discussions is healthy at appropriate times with your kids. And I think that was totally missing from Bill Gothard's teaching and that whole setting. And so it's so sad to see how many families like their kids would just figure everything out for themselves. Yeah. And I think he saw the more, the more, well, the approach was to suppress. And we just suppress, we push away.

And it actually increased the desire and the longing, which is why I stepped into that community and was caught off guard as well by the amount of times I was hearing. in cases of kind of gross sexual perversion in that community saying, why is this happening? And the scriptures have answers. I mean, Colossians too says it looks good to say, do not taste, do not touch, do you not handle. But that has no power in stopping the flesh. The only answer is looking to Christ, which is why even too, when these things came out in the news and everything was happening sort of with her brother. Ginger and I made a statement very intentionally quoting Jesus to show Jesus is the one most opposed to this behavior. He's the one who cares the most for children. He's the one who cares the most for people. And he has given us a

beautiful design for humanity. And that's a distortion of it. Because to have that conflated with Christianity itself is sad. Yeah. Because Christ is the one who is the answer to those problems, not the cause. And the answer for Josh or for anyone in rebellion is not either to, well, don't be a Christian anymore. You just need to free yourself from these standards. Or, well, you just need to follow those rules better. The answer is like the very thing that you pointed out that Bill Gothard and his teachings. And a lot of things, people who profess to be Christians don't understand, which is regeneration. That's the only hope for anyone. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Jesus transforms our heart to love him and to love others. And so if you

look at the fruit of the spirit, which is the result of regeneration, the first three mentioned in scripture, love, joy, peace. And the list goes on, gentleness, patience, kindness. The fruit of conversion is the solution to the human problem. But not putting on a bandaid on cancer, nor embracing your cancer and saying, let me just love the cancer. If you've got a sin problem as a person, you need Christ to transform you. And he was missing that. And so Ginger and I have talked a lot about the pain from the families in that culture, in that system, who do run into deep problems. There's pain because they keep going back to the same solution, but that's actually promoting the problem. And so they need to go, they need to abandon Bill Gothard's proposed solution,

and they need to go to the heart of the issue, which is a genuine relationship with Christ. And it's tough to see those families walk through that and continue to go back to the same. Because the thing is it's the promise guarantees for success for your family. And so when they look at that, they're like, well, what principle did I violate? Right. So then they're just freaking out, really. They're not trusting God at all. It's just like, okay, me, me, me, what did I do? Where did I mess up? And so it's just really sad. Yeah. I think there's probably also, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but a lack of vulnerability and honesty about one's struggles or desires or whatever it is. is that does kind of push people further into darkness and hiding. So rather than someone being comfortable with saying, well, you know, I'm being tempted to sin in this way and I don't want to, you would hide it maybe because you don't even want to admit that you're that you're tempted in anyway. And that just kind of it pushes people.

The shame of that. Yeah. It pushes people more into more actually into embracing that temptation sometimes that running away from it. Yeah, for sure. I think that vulnerability and openness that my parents sought to talk to us, kids about our hearts. But I think you see even within that setting the performance-based thing, you want everything to look good on the outside. And so you're just trying to work to keep that up until it all comes out.

And I think there was that there was a time. I remember that seeing a difference, there was a time where a friend of Jerr's had called him up. and he was like, hey, can you, a pastor, can you pray for me? I'm just having bad attitudes, you know, with my grandkids or whatever. And there was, there was this, like, it just, it shocked me because something like that, hearing it from a pastor, the humility of that and being vulnerable with a friend, it's just so sweet to see that within the body of Christ, that's what we're there for, is, you know, we're able to confess our sins and pray for one another and help each other in that

community, too, that we're blessed with within the body of Christ. It's a gift. It's not something that we should feel like, okay, we're not going to throw our sin out to like every person, you know, that we come across, but it's like it is a sweet thing to see that we don't have to keep up this front of like we're all perfect. We're always going to be happy and cheery and smile. But we can be real and honest. Yeah. And just so, because I know that this is such a sensitive subject, like talking about not just Josh, but like child sex abuse in general. Like, yes, we're talking about the gospel and regeneration and forgiveness. But as you guys said in your statement, like, there is a place and a need for earthly justice. And like we also, as Christians,

absolutely support that and understand that place. And also our hearts go out to all of the people who are affected by this because this is not like a victimless crime. So we don't need to get into the details of that. We've talked about it. There's plenty out there, but just want to make sure that that is totally, that's totally clear. And obviously this is not the first time that the media has talked about your family. There was also a recent, I don't know, cyclone of news and negative coverage about your family when it comes to Jessa, Jessa suffered miscarriage. We talked about that on this podcast. And somehow

the media decided to construe that into she actually had an abortion, which is just wild and absolutely just scientifically inaccurate. But I also know hurtful for her. I mean, what is it like? What was that like? What's it like to see that kind of untrue stuff about people that you love in the media? Yeah, it's interesting. I feel like most of the time, those things just run off my back because being in the public eye since I was a kid, you have to let things roll off your back and just not worry about it. But whenever I heard that about Jess and I saw the articles, I have had very few times where my blood, I feel like my blood is boiling. And that was one of those moments. And I was just like, how could they say that in trying to speak about her pain in such a way that is just hurtful and wrong?

And so my heart was just like hurting for her because I know here she is walking through one of the most difficult things. And she chooses a couple months later to share that with everyone, the world. And then to see something so painful attacked and just it was just so sad. So I know that being in the public eye, you will always have critics and you'll always have. critics and you'll always have people say whatever about you. But that was one that I was just like, this is so wrong. It's so just beyond the pale. It's so hard for me to believe that people would actually go out of their way to write something like that in the midst of her pain. So obviously you love your family very much. You love your parents. You love all of your siblings.

But like what has it been like since this book came out and you've kind of talked about the dangers of some of those teachings. I mean, has that been difficult navigating the, like, navigating those conversations? Yeah, we sought to have conversations with my family about the book before we said anything publicly. And so I think some of them were definitely, like, is still in those teachings. And I knew that. And I knew it would be difficult. But at the same time, A lot of my siblings have been supportive and appreciative of this book. And so I've been really grateful for those responses because I know regardless of what anyone may think about it, I need to speak truth because I feel like it is so necessary when it comes down to how you view God in the Bible. That's what matters the most.

And so I have to speak it no matter what the outcome. Yeah. Do you feel like it's provided you with some opportunities to have those kind of gospel-centered conversations? Yeah, it's been really sweet to see how many conversations I've been able to have around the book. And like the book has opened up that door for conversation. And I know so many can really identify with different points of what I've walked through. And so it's been it's been encouraging.

Yeah. I'm sure it's been different. being a mom now and having a different location where you're raising your kids, totally different from where you grew up in Arkansas. And obviously, different theology, different church. I mean, how has that been for y'all? I mean, everyone kind of has that to some degree. You have some differences from how you were raised versus how you raise your kids.

But just in kind of learning how to apply what you now understand about the gospel and motherhood. What does that look like? It's kind of interesting. Like in those early years, I really had it all mapped out how my kids were going to be what I was going to do at the age of 14. I would look at other families and be like, your kids over there were rebelling. I know what's wrong with them. They don't know these principles. So once I set all that aside, I did freak out a little bit because I was literally like, babe, what are we going to do?

I have no clue now because I am just having to, as I should, go to the Word of God, pray through stuff together and try to make the best decisions. for our kids because it's like now I'm not saying that homeschool is our only option where I thought I'm going to say here I'm like okay we have so many great schooling options around us which I'm very grateful for and it or like even just how we're going to do life at home and I want to point them to Jesus I don't want to point them to these standards what are we going to do when they get older, all of those things, it's a beautiful thing because it makes us rely on the Lord all more instead of feel like, okay, we're going to trust this man that he has the answers. We're going to go to God's word.

Do you ever still have moments where you feel like you kind of struggle between, hang on, is this, is what I'm doing right now? Is this obedience being motivated out of a love for God? Or am I kind of reverting as we all do at different points in our faith to maybe your pre-understanding of what it really means to be regenerated more of that kind of superstitious feeling yeah yeah definitely every day reminding myself of the gospel reminding myself of the truth of god's word i think because these teachings were so foundational for me it has been something that i have to remind myself of the work of christ that has done on my behalf as a believer

and not turning to like if I had, you know, a bad attitude towards one of my kids or my husband, realizing, okay, there's forgiveness in Christ. I'm not, I need to ask forgiveness and then move on and let the grace of God cover that because within the system of the Bill Gothard, it's so easy just to become so introspective and to become fearful. Like, oh, no, since I messed up, what's going to happen to me? Those feelings still come back. And I have to speak.

I have to think truth, speak truth in my. my heart through God's word, realizing who I am in Christ and asking for forgiveness and moving on. And that's definitely still something that every day I have to work through. But I think to some extent we all have that. But maybe a little more coming from a setting that was focused on the outward. Yeah. And the freedom that you're talking about in your book and the title of your book is not, like you mentioned deconstruction a couple of times as we've been talking,

It's not the freedom to do whatever you want to. It's not the freedom to follow your own heart as the world defines freedom. You're not talking about freedom from obedience, but actually freedom to obey. So it's not the obedience itself necessarily that changes, but the place where it comes, which really actually kind of revolutionizes everything, right? Yeah. That is the thing. It's not like you're throwing off all restraints to feel like you're free, but true freedom

is found in knowing Christ and loving him and obeying him, obedience through his word. And it's such a beautiful thing. It is freeing to be living your life according to the Bible, not according to a man's tradition or anything, but just knowing God and loving him, that is where freedom is found. Yeah. Actually, I read an Instagram post the other day that made me sad with someone who is basically saying that they can live in a certain kind of sin and also follow Christ. and she actually used the words, I'm so glad I discovered that I don't have to deny myself to follow Jesus.

I'm like, wow, you don't even realize. And so like we've been talking about the dangers of legalism, which is, I mean, gosh, Satan can use that. We saw that with the Pharisees. And then some people, you know, you swing to the other direction and you actually end up without even realizing it, like denying obedience to Christ altogether because you think to be a Christian means to have, like you said, no. restrates. Right. Do whatever you want. Follow the culture. Do whatever the culture is doing. And that is not the answer. So that's where it's all, all that we do as Christians, it will be found in the word of God. So denying yourself, it says, deny yourself, take your cross and follow God. So that's where you see that that is the beauty of Christianity, though. It's not like, oh no, now I'm going

to live this terrible life because I have to deny myself. We, it's a beautiful thing to, submit our lives to the Word of God, to submit ourselves to a church and to the beauty of being in a place where you have accountability. And there are so many of those things that people would say are bad, but they're actually good. They're good gifts from God. Yeah. Is there anything you would add to that, Jeremy? I would just say, you know, the Lord made us and he made us with a beautiful design. And it's our sin that has rejected that design. So to submit to our maker is to submit to his original plan for for flourishing and for our enjoyment and satisfaction, which is why as Christians, it's not a lack of freedom in relationship to God. It's finding

true freedom for the first time because we're reconnected with why we are here, why we were made, and we have a purpose. Yeah, definitely. What would just be your final encouragement? Maybe for someone who is in the midst of a kind of upbringing or just a kind of theology, like, that you were raised in. And honestly, I'm sure there's a lot of fear in that because there is some comfort in saying, okay, this is my, these are my rules. Like, this is my security blanket because if I just follow this, then I'm going to be okay. I don't know what it looks like to let those go.

What if I do end up rebelling or whatever it is? Like, what does it look like to not have that safety and security anymore? So what would be your final message to someone like that? Yeah. I would say I think that it's interesting. I remember that initial wrestling with that thought because it's so easy when Bill Godthard had prescribed for me. Everything was black and white.

There was no gray area in the Christian life. And so he had it all prescribed for me. And I thought that seems easier. But when you realize where your heart actually is in that time is turmoil. There's no peace in that because you are. working, you're trying to work to keep up all these outward standards for yourself thinking, this is my safety, this is my peace. It's not found in the word of God. It's not found in a relationship with him. And so you can only be on that treadmill so long and you're going to be beat down

again and again. And the promise guarantee for success within Bill Gothard's principles or anybody else who's trying to teach you outside of the Bible is not going to last. But when you can find true peace in coming to the Word of God, examining those things, and realizing, like, sometimes you're going to lose friendships. You're going to lose your community. You're going to lose what you thought your future was going to look like. But trusting in God, who is all knowing, all good, and realizing, like, if I don't have anyone else right now, but I have God, that's enough.

That was a place that I felt like I had to come to, even to be able to speak out against this because the community can be the hardest thing to get past. Yeah. Because you feel like I'm losing everything now, that safety. But it's a beautiful thing to be able to come to the Word of God and like even be led by the spirit of God. And each person's life can look so different in that time where it's like my, you know, my friend may send their kids to a Christian school.

I may homeschool. We can have these differences and we can trust that God is good and he's going to work in their life in the right in his timing. and we don't have to like micromanage everything. Yeah. There's peace in that. And there's a beauty in just trusting in Jesus and not in a person. Yeah.

And Psalm 23 tells us that the Lord is our shepherd. We shall not want. So it's actually not the rules that are keeping us safe. It's the Lord that keeps us safe. And it's not because we earn that safety or we had anything to do with it, but he gives it to us as a gift. And there is so much freedom and peace and that. And that's where the obedience comes from.

You obey because you love. love so much and you're so thankful not because, oh my gosh, I'm going to be, I'm going to be Codding too much. It's okay. No, it's fine. It's totally fine. I mean, this is a huge part of your heart and your life and it goes somewhere really deep. So, yeah.

Jeremy, is there anything else that you would tell someone who has had a similar background? I've just, I've been really encouraged by Ginger's strength through this journey and, and her commitment to not lose Jesus in the midst of the distortion of Christ and his words. There's a lot of people who want to take the word of God and use it for their own gain. And that's confusing and that's hurtful. But to recognize really how Ginger concludes in her book that Christ is a gracious Savior. He's a kind friend and that he's worth holding on to. and going directly to him, despite the pain you've walked through,

despite how people have maybe used and abused his words, that Jesus Christ is true and he is good. Yeah, and he's worth it. He's worth all the, whether it's misunderstandings, or whether it's strained in relationships or whatever it is, he's worth that. So thank you for sharing your story, because whether someone is on the side of,

well, I'm just going to let all of this go or I've got to cling to these rules. There's a lot to benefit from your vulnerability. And I'm sure that was really hard. I'm sure. It's okay. No, it's fine. I mean, I'm sure it has been hard to share a lot of this. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Thank you both so much for taking the time to share. And I really do. I encourage people to go out and at her book. Most of you probably already have. You probably did after our original conversation. And again, go back and listen to that. If you haven't, that'll kind of give you an understanding even more of where she's coming from. But we'll put up the book and we'll put the link in the description of this episode and you can check it out. It's an amazing book, just an incredible story,

but also so many lessons about the gospel and who God really is. Thank you guys so much for taking the time. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Hope you loved that conversation as much as I did definitely go out and get Ginger's book. All right. Let's announce the winners of the giveaway. Thank you guys so much for entering for everyone, the thousands of people who participated. I really appreciate it. All of the, all of the companies, do all the sponsors that gave us the items to put in these giveaway baskets. Just incredible. You should be following them anyway. Check out their stuff. I've got promo codes for all of those companies. So make sure that you go. You get some good stuff. You use promo code.

It depends. Sometimes it's Allie. Sometimes it's Allie B. Use my promo code that you can find in the descriptions of these episodes and go check them out. They're great companies to sponsor. But the people who won the free stuff for entering. Jessica Jacques, I think that's how you pronounce your last name, Jessica, Julia Garboni. And then Emily Casey, we have already messaged them. We've got their addresses. So we are sending the stuff their way for everyone else. Again, thank you for entering, but also remember, we've got lots and lots of new merch. Guys, related bros, Mother's Day is coming up. And you know what your baby mama wants? She was a relatable gear. Bree's laughing at my use of baby mama. Your lawfully wanted wife, she wants, she wants relatable gear.

She wants a corduroy relatable hat. She wants a be a salmon crewneck sweatshirt. wants a relatable don't she wants all that and plus you can use alley 10 my promo code at checkout you'll get 10% off so go get your relatable gear alleymerch.com we'll put the link in the description of this episode check it out and even if you're not looking for a mother's day gift just go on there anyway get yourself some gear mine came in today i'm so excited i'm going to wear it tomorrow on the show all right thanks so much for watching and listening we will be back here tomorrow Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political.

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