Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 797 | Can Women Teach the Bible ... at All?

Episode Date: May 1, 2023

Today we're discussing gender roles in the church, preaching vs. pastoring, and what a woman is allowed to do biblically. There is a debate circulating on social media over whether women should be able to teach academic theology or exposit the Bible even to other women. We start with definitions of biblical patriarchy, complementarianism, and egalitarianism. The patriarchal view says that if a woman is to teach other women, it must be within the bounds of child-rearing and homemaking. We explain why hierarchies in the home and church are important, but why complementarianism is different from biblical patriarchy. We all have proper context and responsibilities for our gifts, but while we agree that women should not be pastors or teach in pastoral roles, we don't see biblical support for the idea that women can't be talking about academic theology publicly, generally speaking. We look at John Piper's breakdown of complementarianism and touch on theological works written by women and discipleship. --- Timecodes: (00:46) Intro and definitions (06:36) Biblical patriarchy (14:55) My personal take (21:26) Hierarchies in the home and church (27:08) God-given skills / female pastors (36:52) Theological works by women (42:27) Discipleship (45:22) John Piper's view / complementarianism --- Today's Sponsors: Birch Gold — protect your future with gold. Text 'ALLIE' to 989898 for a free, zero obligation info kit on diversifying and protecting your savings with gold. Epic Will — be intentional about your family, your values and your wishes. Go to EpicWill.com/ALLIE and you’ll save 10% on your complete Will package. My Patriot Supply — prepare yourself for anything with long-term emergency food storage. Get $200 of survival gear when you buy a Three-Month Emergency Food Kit when you go to PrepareWithAllie.com. Good Ranchers — get $30 OFF your box today at GoodRanchers.com – make sure to use code 'ALLIE' when you subscribe. You'll also lock in your price for two full years with a subscription to Good Ranchers! --- Links: GotQuestions.org: "What are the Quiverfull and Patriarchy movements?" https://www.gotquestions.org/Quiverfull-Patriarchy.html GotQuestions.org: "What is complementarianism?" https://www.gotquestions.org/complementarianism.html GotQuestions.org: "What is egalitarianism?" https://www.gotquestions.org/egalitarianism.html --- Relevant Episodes: Ep 129 | Women in the Church https://apple.co/3HtNSTH Ep 122 | Josh Buice https://apple.co/44jJSio Ep 134 | End Times https://apple.co/3oVlnrA Ep 796 | Former Lesbian Activist Calls “Soft” Christians to Repentance | Guest: Rosaria Butterfield https://apple.co/3NtxGp9 --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'MOM10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. What are women allowed to talk about publicly? Are we allowed to talk about doctrine? Are we allowed to teach Bible studies? Are we allowed to write theological books?

Should I even have this podcast? This is the debate that is roaring right now on Christian social media. And we will dive into it, looking at all of the different views of gender roles within the church preaching versus pastoring, all that good stuff. It's going to be fun. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use code Alley. Check out that's good ranchers.com.

Code Allie. Hey, guys. Welcome to Relatable. Happy Monday. Hope everyone had a wonderful weekend. Hopefully spring has sprung wherever you are. And you are finally getting some consistent. That's what I'm hoping over where we are.

All right, we're going to dive right into this debate. Some of you are familiar with it. Some of you are not. But I think for everyone, hopefully this will be encouraging. Now, before I get started, I am having this internal debate and have been having this internal debate about how specific I want to get on who is saying what. This person's arguing this. That person is arguing that.

and I've decided to stay away from naming names because I think it contributes to a spirit of controversy and drama that I'm really not trying to get into. And at the same time, I want you to know that as I'm giving examples of the different positions of this debate, that I am talking about specific, real people and articulated perspectives, I'm not just drawing examples out of thin air or imagining someone said something. There have been pastors and authors, Twitter theologians, some of them, Twitter users, if you will, who fancy themselves, you know, authoritative on this issue, who have been discussing this and debating and debating this. Some names you probably know, some names you don't. So I just wanted to offer my perspective on all of it because it does

kind of have to do with me. Not fully, but I do think some people kind of throw me into this debate simply because I am a female podcaster who talks about theology. I talk about Christian things. And I'm also conservative and I have conservative views on gender roles and all of that. So where do I fall into it? What's my take on all of it? So the debate right now, the kind of niche debate is about whether women can teach the Bible, not just preach the Bible from the pulpit, but whether they can teach the Bible at all. Like should women be leading Bible studies? Should they be writing theological books, publicly discussing doctrine, leading Bible studies, hosting podcasts that have anything to do with theology or doctrine at all? And these might seem like, I'm guessing, to most of you, bizarre questions.

Like most of you are probably thinking if I know my audience and I think I do, you're thinking that's ridiculous. Of course women can teach the gospel or explain the scriptures. Most of you in this audience also don't believe, just as I don't believe, that women should be pastors. Now, there may be some of you who believe out there because, you know, every audience has some diversity in it. you might believe that yes, women can and should teach the Bible. Like you consider yourself a conservative in a lot of ways, but you also believe that women can preach from the pulpit and be pastor. So not just teach and preach the Bible, but also can be in the pulpit, can exercise that

kind of authority and can maybe even pastor a church. Believe it or not, among political conservatives, there are definitely people who hold that position and even among people who would consider themselves theologically conservative, there are some variations of that that some Christians adhere to. And so here are the names for the different positions about gender roles, particularly gender roles within the church. So the first one is egalitarianism, which holds that men and women are of equal value.

All of these positions posit that that men and women are of equal innate. value we are equally made in the image of God. And egalitarianism also says that men and women are equally equipped for any role in the church, can hold any office within the church. They can be pastors, they can be deacons, they can be elders, they can be anything. So they are egalitarian. They are equal, not just in worth, but they can also be equal in role. There's no problem, according to this view, of a woman exercising authority over a man in any realm, including in the church. And then there's complementarianism, which holds that men and women are of equal value, but that they, according to scripture, are not called to the same rules. So for example, within this view, only men can be

pastors of a church. Only men can shepherd a congregation. And then there are soft complementarians and strict complementarians. There are soft complementarians who may agree that according to scripture, men can be pastors of a church. Only men can hold that position. But they would say women can still preach from the pulpit from time to time as long as they are ultimately under the authority of a male head at the church. Strict complementarians would say no. Women cannot preach from the pulpit in church. And then there would probably be some disagreement, even within that camp, even among strict complementarians about whether this applies to women preaching from a pulpit outside the church, like at a Christian conference in which both men and women are

in the audience, or if that prohibition only applies to women like inside the local church on Sunday morning. So there are some disagreements within that views. There are probably some disagreements within all of these views. I'm giving you a general definition of them. Of course, there are going to be exceptions and variations and nuances, on where you are within that view. And then there is the patriarchal view in which men and women are of equal innate value, but the woman's role, according to this view, is exclusively centered on homekeeping and child rearing.

And while most who hold this view, most, most wouldn't say that women are incapable of understanding or even explaining the Bible. And I say most because there's. some, I've seen it on Twitter who would say, like, they're not. They're not capable the way that men are of explaining or understanding the Bible. But most would say, yes, they have the capability, but that's simply not their role. They would argue that women teaching the word is exercising inherently an authority that has not been delegated to them. There are some other tenets of this view. Again, variation among the individuals and congregations that hold this view. But many believe that women

should never exercise any authority anywhere over a man, whether it's government, whether it's at work, at all. Daughters are to remain home typically within this view under their dad's authority until they get married. So if they get married at 45, they're under their dad's authority at home until 45. A lot of people who hold this view believe that. So there are different parts of it. Those are some aspects, some tenets of this kind of patriarchal view, which we'll get into

a little bit more in a second. But that's kind of the main thrust of it. So most of us are familiar with complementarianism and egalitarianism. Most of us are not really familiar, at least today, with the patriarchal view. And the reason we're even talking about this, as I said at the beginning and particularly this last view, is because there is a debate that many of you have seen circulating on Twitter and Instagram. As I like to say, you guys ultimately are my executive producers.

So when I put up an Instagram story yesterday and said, what do you want me to talk about? There's always a split. I said we can talk about these state bills that are happening, which are very important. We'll talk about them this week. Or we can talk about this contentious issue about women preaching and teaching. And most of you said this one. So that's how we landed here. By the way, I have done a women in the church episode, I think back in 2019.

And we'll link that. So I have talked about this issue in depth of whether or not women should be preaching and pastoring. There have been some clips in quotes circulating, arguing that women should not be teaching anything academic, theologically, even to women, and really that they shouldn't be learning this stuff from other people, other than their husbands. And by academic theology, I mean more complex theological issues. Eschatology, which is the study of the end times. maybe included in academic theology would be Armenianism versus Calvinism, the issue of predestination. And the idea that is being put forth here is that women shouldn't be teaching these things at all.

Shouldn't really even be discussing them publicly. Shouldn't try to influence other people's opinions on them publicly. Shouldn't be learning them unless they are under the authority of a man, preferably their husband, or if single their father or pastor. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political.

They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show. for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.

So many in this patriarchal camp would also say that women should not be expositing the Bible, even to women. So meaning preaching and interpreting the Bible, which means even at a women's conference or at a women's Bible study, women should not be explaining. passages or explaining theological concepts to other women. So here is a quote explaining this by someone who holds this position. Quote, when a woman teaches another woman devotional or academic theology without the direct oversight of her spiritual head, that woman is essentially usurping the authority of that

woman's father, husband, or pastor. The only exception to this, they would argue, is the specification that is that is, listed in Titus 2 through 5. Most of us are familiar with this passage. Quote, older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanders or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good. And so trained the young women to love their husbands and children to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. There's a lot of good stuff. there. But the patriarchal position posits that if women are teaching other women, which obviously

biblically, there is a place for that, but it must be, they say, within these bounds, it must focus all teaching by women, must focus on child rearing and homemaking. They would go so far as to say that a woman should not even learn theology from a man or a woman out from under the authority of her spiritual head, namely her father or her husband. And here is a quote from a sermon recently saying as much that you guys have probably seen going around. This pastor says, and I'm not trying to decontextualize this. I'm not trying to make this sound worse than it is. I think that this gives all the proper context here. I think this is a fair. I mean, this is just a transcription, but I think it's fair to give as much context as we are.

Quote, there are certain books that I just had to say. This pastor says, hey, I don't know if this is a bad book, but I don't have time to read it. So you're not going to read it either. We'll read it together. He's talking about speaking to his wife. He says, I remember recently my wife had a book and I saw her reading it on the couch. It was about Pato baptism. And I said, no, we're not doing that yet. We will become Pato Baptist when I'm ready. Pato Baptist is infant baptism. But my wife's not going to be a Pato Baptist for three years before I am and I don't have time to read it right now. I know the arguments will be great. I will agree and disagree. I'm not sure what arguments will be better, but for the time being, this is one I'm persuaded up,

and you are not going to outpace me. This husband says to his wife. All right. Okay. So I think that I've pretty fairly summarized. I mean, we could spend an entire, I mean, we could spend an entire series looking at the different aspects of this. Let me give you just like my personal take, okay, my personal perspective on this. And then we'll talk about what the Bible says. I'll look to specifically a lot of the work that John Piper has done on this. He and Wayne Grudham, who I also really appreciate. I always recommend Wayne Grudham's systematic theology. They wrote a book on biblical manhood and womanhood. They've got a lot of great material out there about this. He's not the only one who has written authoritatively and persuasively about this, but he has a lot of resources

on his desiring God website. So we will go to those. But let me give you my just like personal perspective because this is called relatable. And I want to relate to those of you. who, like me, are strong-willed women. This audience is mostly women. You're mostly moms. There's a lot of very smart, very theologically adept, and very influential in a lot of ways women who listen to this podcast. And so I already know your reaction.

I know your reaction to what I just. described. And so let me just relate to you and tell you my personal perspective. If you've been listening to this podcast for any amount of time, this doesn't come as a surprise to you, but I am also a strong world person. I have since toddlerhood been opinionated and not just opinionated, but if I can say this, and I think I can persuasively opinionated, and that I'm not just content with telling you what I think. Like, I want to persuade you of my position. And the second grade, everyone got these characters. Quality Awards. I went to a Christian school. So everyone's character equality awards at the end of the

year had to do with the fruit of the spirit. Oh, you know, Lauren is so loving. Katie is so friendly. Or maybe someone got like an organized or kind or something like that. Or this person is gentle, spirited, generous, whatever. I got persuasive. And my teacher told me that I should be an attorney. So that was the characteristic that I guess stuck out for my second grade teacher, that I was persuasive. And I I did. I like to persuade people. I still do. I could read and talk and argue and wanted to from a very early age. I had a desire to lead at a very early age. I questioned authority at a very early age until high school. I had a very fraught relationship with my teachers because I questioned everything that I was taught. And even in high school, I wasn't some troublemaker, some rebel or

anything like that, although I did use box dye on my hair to die a black one time. That's a different story. I just didn't like authority. My mother and my grandmother were both teachers. My grandmother lived with us. I learned more honestly about the fundamentals of words, of phonics, of reading, of writing, of communicating, of memorizing from them that I did in my early years in school. So school was hard for me for many years because in some areas, I just knew too much as a kid for my own good. And in other areas like math or science, nothing came naturally, so I just didn't care. I didn't even try. So school was a difficult time for me, mostly because of the authority structure and their requirements that were there. I was much older in my mind

than I actually was. My dad always said that I was six going on 26. I'm the youngest of three. My brothers are 11 and 7 years older than me. My parents always took us with them to different business conferences, seminars, meetings. So I spent a lot of time around adults. So adult authority for someone who thinks that they already are an adult or that they reason like an adult because they spend so much time around people older than them. In many ways, it's really difficult. Having a boss in my first couple jobs out of college, really hard for me. I don't want to paint this picture. Like I always had some like horrible attitude or like I didn't have a good work ethic or I was never humble or never teachable because that's not true. I really love learning and I and I love

learning how to become good at something. I enjoy and seek out ways to learn from people who know more than I do on something or are better at something than I am. However, being taught and guided, which I've always really loved and helped is different than being managed. And I don't, I don't like to be managed. So a lot of you feel the same way that I do, which makes it even more difficult to, I think, talk about this without like a physical reaction or aversion to the things that we're reading. I have always very much valued independence, freedom, autonomy. I always knew that long term I wouldn't have a desk job. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I just knew that I wouldn't. I knew I would pursue something like what I'm doing today in some way, whether it was

through ministry or even just a hobby or an actual job. My parents knew it. They encouraged it. We didn't know what it would look like, but we just knew that I would be doing something like this, where I'm communicating to people, trying to persuade people, trying to encourage people. That's who I have always been. I've never been afraid of that. I've never been afraid of being in front of people. I've never been afraid of saying, in my opinion, I've been very confident in those things for a very long time. At the same time, growing up, I've always wanted to be a wife and mom.

Always. There was no part of me that wanted to chase some career or anything. and put off marriage and motherhood until later in life until I was a certain level of success. That's not what I wanted to do. And I got married almost right out of college, 23 years old. And that's what I wanted to do. I always had that desire too. Also, beginning in college and later in high school, my faith became real to me.

I was raised in a Christian home, attended a Christian school, always went to church, which I am immeasurably thankful for. but Christ captured my heart and mind in my later teenage years, early 20s, and I understood that all parts of me were to be shaped for his glory rather than my own. My sin, my pride, all of it had to be killed. My heart had to be made new. My strengths and weaknesses all used according to his will, his purposes, and not my own. it meant submission to his authority rather than my own autonomy, which also meant, and still means,

submitting to hierarchies that he has put in place for our good. And a couple of those hierarchies that we see clearly in scripture are within marriage and within the church. And marriage, as we read in Ephesians 5, the husband is to be the head of the wife. And wives are to submit to their husbands as to the Lord. In the church, I'm not to be a pastor. I am not to actually. I am not to exercise authority over men. And these are things I always knew and would say I agreed with. I mean, I was raised in a conservative home and church where these hierarchies were represented for me. But that doesn't mean that they were going to be easy for me. My personality, like many of your personalities, it tells me lead. Get up. Say it. Persuade. Decide. Tell people where to go.

But if this personality that God gave me, these strengths that God gave me and so clearly demonstrated through me from childhood are to glorify him, they must fall within his bounce. They don't need to be squashed or belittled, but they must fall within the proper context. I believe for my good and also for his glory. So that means that even if we are able women to lead our husbands, so to be the final decision maker, to be the one who dictates where we move, how we spend, what church we go to, the spiritual formation of the family, that that is ultimately not up to us. Now, because we are one flesh with our husbands, these decisions are made together, but the ultimate responsibility, the final say for the well-being of the family falls on the husbands. Now, just a caveat, I know not all husbands

are Christians and the Christian wife, according to 1st Peter 3, 1 is to try to win him over by living a godly life herself, but we are called to submit to our husbands as wives in so far as doing so does not cause us to sin in any way. So that means, and forgive me if this sounds like braggadocious in any way, because that's not my intent. It's actually trying to express like how submission to God and His will looks for different people, like even if we feel a certain way very strongly, even if we feel like we have what it takes to do something that falls outside of his bounds. So all of this means that even though, even though I know I am mentally and physically capable, mentally and physically capable of stepping to a pulpit on Sunday morning and delivering

a more biblically sound, exegetically exquisite, persuasive and dynamic sermon than many male pastors in America today, I can't do it because that is not the realm. to which God has called me as a woman. And you know what? Like, of course, pride would have a struggle with that. Pride would have us want that. One of the parts of the curse is that, Eve, your desire will be for your husband,

but he will rule over you. The hierarchy is not a part of the fall, but our desire to usert that authority and to exercise our own authority, that is a part of sin. That is a part of the fall. But ultimately because I know that God is wiser and infinitely better than I am, I am thankful that even though I am physically and mentally capable of doing some things, that I'm not

called to doing all of those things, even if it is just because of the gender that God providentially gave me, because I don't actually want all of the authority and the responsibility that comes from being the ultimate say-so for my family, being a shepherd for my family, being a shepherd for an entire congregation. Like, I don't want those responsibilities and roles, even though maybe I'm capable in a lot of ways to exercise them. So if you're someone who just struggles in general, not just with that patriarchal view that I listed, which again, I'm going to get into my issues with that, but just the issue of different roles, the issues of hierarchies, hierarchies, the issues of, you know, gender differences within the church. Like, I feel you. I totally, totally

understand where you are coming from. But as we will explain a little bit further, God's way is better. So let's talk specifically a little bit more about this patriarchal position and where I think it falls short, where I think that there are some contradictions within it. All right. So I don't want the authority and the responsibility that comes from leadership, even if some of the capabilities, not all, but some of the capabilities are there, even if I feel like, wow, God, made me this way. I have to lead in all of these realms. Look, God has given us a lot of different skills that are always called when we become Christians to be placed in the proper and most God glorifying ways. Like you might be, or contacts rather, like if you might be an amazing, I don't know,

see, this is one of the realms that God hasn't gifted me. And you might be great with computers, okay? And God has given you that gift to use that gift. But, But that doesn't mean that just because someone gives you an offer of $5 million to do something illegal with your gifts or something unethical with that gifts, that you're supposed to like hack into some server and steal a bunch of money for that, I don't know how computers work. But we all have proper context and responsibilities for the gifts that we have been given. But I do believe all of us have particular gifts. All of us have particular strengths.

All of us have particular weaknesses. And I do use, obviously, you're listening to this or watching this, my strengths of communication in the public domain specifically to help women. Now, there are related bros who listen to this podcast. I know that. There are men who listen to this podcast. There are men who have read my book. There are men who attend the women's conferences that I speak at.

And even though my audience is majority women, even though my, messages are tailored to women, even though I say specifically, like, this is a show that is going to be relatable for women. I say that that's my passion to help educate and empower the women who are already on my side and try to persuade the ones who are not to show women, like why politics matter, but also how theology affects our politics. And so that means that, yes, I will. be talking about the Bible because Genesis 1-1 can't be separated from what I think about politics or what I think about culture. If I believe that God created the heavens and the earth and he's the authority over all of it, then that means that he is the sole arbiter of what is and what's right

and what's wrong, what's good and what's bad, what's true, and what's false. That is going to affect what I think about gender, what I think about abortion, even what I think about immigration, what I think about gun laws, what I think about the people that we elect. And so that is going to mean that we weighed into some, yes, academic theology at times. That yes, because you know what, eschatology has to do with my politics. So understanding or believing what I do about the end times, which I've done episodes on that before, I mean, that will affect my politics. What I think about gender roles, which could be considered an academically theological subject,

like that's going to affect my politics. That's going to affect culture. Now, maybe the patriarchal position is that women don't need to be talking about politics and culture. I think that that is, that's a position. You can have that position. That's fine. But if you hold that position, do not ask to come on my podcast. Okay. That's the thing is that a lot of these people who say this, they're like, oh, women really shouldn't be talking about these things. Women really shouldn't be bringing these, like, complex issues to the table. Fine. Don't ask to come on my podcast. Don't ask me to read your book. Like, don't ask for, don't ask for those things.

I'm not talking about anyone specifically. I'm just saying there are a lot of Theo Bros. Online that would say, you know, Ali Stucky shouldn't, because she's a woman, she shouldn't be talking about these things. That's fine. Don't you dare retweet me. Don't ask for a retweet. Don't ask for my platform if you think that my platform is inherently unbiblical.

Because where I fall is in the, complementarian realm. I don't believe that women should be preaching at church on Sundays at all, whether you're a pastor or not. I don't believe that you should be exercising that authority over men. I certainly don't think that you should be a pastor or a co-paster of a church. Look, I have been offered a lot of money from some of these very wealthy mega churches to come speak there. And then I look into their church's theology. I look into their church's hierarchy and I see that they have female co-pastors. And I have to say no. And I have done that many times. As I said, believe it or not, there are many conservatives who are okay, like with women exercising authority. I've been asked

to speak places Sunday morning by myself. And I've had to say, no, look, I'll do a Q&A. I'll do an interview. I'll do something like that on stage if you want that to be, you know, a segment of your Sunday. but I'm not going to speak by myself on Sunday morning if it's a mixed audience. I can't speak at your church. I'm sorry if you have a female pastor. That's been difficult. Like I've had to cut off opportunities and cut ties because of those things. But I don't see biblical support for the idea that women can't be talking about academic subjects, theology, doctrine publicly. Now, I take my doctrine and theology from almost, almost, exclusively, I would say, male theologians. I can't even really tell you a female

theologian that I am, like, inspired by. Well, actually, I don't even know if I would call them theologians. But there are women, however, that I am inspired by, that I get content from, that I cite very often. And I just wonder if they fall into, according to those who hold this patriarchal view, I'm wondering if women that I am inspired by it, like Elizabeth Elliott, like Amy Carmichael, like Susan Heck, I mean, there's so many different women who speak about things, who write about things, who teach about things that are not limited to homemaking. Now, everything, again, I think goes back to that. You have to know theology, even, yes, academic theology in order to live a life that we are

called to live and teach the things that we are called to teach in Titus II about living pure lives about conducting ourselves in a way that is godly leading up our children like look if i'm discipling my kids i need to know and i need to be able to teach not just to my kids but if i'm an older woman to younger women like what does the bible say about predestination and salvation you'd be surprised but that comes up really early in motherhood like what do you believe the gospel actually is what do you believe the in times are all of these things in one way or another have to do with motherhood. And so even if we are only called as women to teach what Titus II tells us to teach, we need to be able to understand these very heady, very complicated theological issues,

and yes, repackage them for women. Because I just, I'm not really sure if there's any theological topic, no matter how complex, no matter how academic, that will not affect how someone lives and therefore how someone mothers. And so I simply don't see that much of a distinction there. And by the way, a lot of these women who are repeating this idea that women can only talk about child rearing, women can only talk about like keeping a home, which are all wonderful things that I think we should focus on and we should talk about, we should be taught about.

There should be more mentorship in the church about those things, 100%. But a lot of the women who are saying, yes, women shouldn't be talking about theology. You shouldn't be even talking about politics. You shouldn't be talking about worldview and all that. They chime in in the gender debates. I see your tweets. You got something to say about President Biden. You got something to say about Trump.

You got something to say about guns. You got something to say about a lot of these political topics. But what would you say to the women who say this? You say, well, they're really biblical topics. Yeah, that's my argument too. That's my argument too. I talk about the things that I do because I think that they have not just political and cultural significance, but they have theological, spiritual, and eternal significance. And I do see,

I mean, I do believe that men and women as Christians are called, are called to those things. And I say this also as someone who is really skeptical of Bible studies that are written by women. Like, I'll just be honest. Like, I'm really skeptical when I, like, I'm really skeptical of those things. My propensity, as someone who considers myself, like, I'm a gal's gal, okay? Like, I love my female friendships. I've always had strong female friendships. I've never been someone that's like, I'm just different. I only have guy friends. I've never been that kind of person. Sorry, Bree laughed in the background that made me laugh. Um, so I'm like, I'm a gal's gal and I think women are awesome and like so smart and so capable. And yet I'll just be honest. Like, I am skeptical when I

here when like teaching comes from a woman. I'm not saying that's right of me to always be skeptical of that, but I do gravitate definitely towards theological works and towards biblical books that are written by men. Not always, again, they're definitely exceptions, but usually, especially the academic books. So I have no problem saying that most academic theological work that we have, that is trustworthy, has been written by men. I'm fine with saying that. But again, when I think of someone like Nancy Piercy, who I don't think she was, she wouldn't call herself a theologian, but who has written amazing theological books like total

truth, like love thy body. I mean, those have been so instrumental in my understanding of these very complex topics from an academic but more important biblical perspective. Like, I think that there would be a void left if Nancy Pearson, didn't write books. What about Rosaria Butterfield? If you haven't listened to her interview, go back to Thursday. If she wasn't out there sharing her testimony, I mean, we talked theology on Thursday. We talked some political and cultural stuff that's really just biblical. We didn't really talk that much about motherhood, although she is a homeschooling mom. I'm sure she has a lot to say about that,

but she talks about a lot of things. And wow, people, by the grace of God, through Rosaria Butterfield, have repented of their sins, even sexual sins, because they have realized just the power of the gospel worked out through her. Should she be silent? Should she reserve the things that she has to say about biblical doctrine, about theology, about her own testimony to the privacy of her own journals, and simply allow her husband to speak up about these things? Look, I've also seen people say that it's a problem if a man's, if a woman's husband is not as famous as her or isn't as well known as her. Why? That's you measuring someone's value by whether they are public or private. God isn't. Like, I don't think that I'm more important to the body of Christ than someone who is never

behind a microphone or only influences the five people in her home versus the number of people that I influence. I don't think that person is less valuable or less instrumental. I don't think that the man who just happens to not have a public platform is somehow weak or somehow not leading or is somehow not influential or somehow not fulfilling, like his God-given role of leadership versus a woman who is public. I don't think God measures our obedience or usefulness or value by whether we are private or public with our platforms. It just depends on the strengths and the opportunities and the platforms that he has given us and it's our opportunity and our responsibility, rather, to steward those things responsibly and for his glory, right? And I think, again, about Elizabeth Elliott. Sure, you know Jim

Elliott, but her second husband, do you know his name? He died? Her third husband, do you know his name? I know their names, but that's just because I'm in Elizabeth Elliott stand. Not because her husbands are, their, her husbands were famous besides, again, Jim Elliott and like her last husband, Lars, traveled with her. Like, yes, he was her spiritual head. He was the leader of the family. But he also helped her a lot. He made sure all the logistics were taking care of, even that the audio was, you know, secure and put in place and everything like that. She was the one going around and teaching. Was she teaching women? Yes, she was teaching women. She also had a radio program in which I'm sure there were men who tuned in. And Elizabeth Elliott, just like me, can't control that. I can't control

that. It's not my, it's not my job. And I don't have the capability of being able to filter out who listens to me publicly. But I think that, not that I'm comparing myself to Elizabeth Elliott at all, I'm just saying public platforms, like, you just do the best you can. And you speak to the subjects that you can with as much, you know, grace and God-given power as possible. And so when I just see this view, when I just compare this view to reality, And I look at the faithful, theologically conservative, biblically solid women who have written beautifully exegetical and beautifully sound Bible studies because they exist out there. Again, I mean, I do think women tend to be more emotional.

And so sometimes I do think the Bible studies are more me-centered. And I don't always enjoy that. And so, and because I don't think it's biblical. But there are women who have written amazing Bible studies who have, written amazingly biblical soundbooks. You don't know the names of their husbands. Maybe they've made a lot of money from these platforms too and their husband has a different kind of job. And I have benefited so much from these women's testimonies, from their smarts, from their words, from the gifts that God has given them. And they would agree that they're not the head of their family, that they're not

ahead of the church, but that they see their humble and obedient use of God's gifts as simply serving him. Here's another question that I have for this. Like, are women called to discipleship? Are they called to discipleship? Are they called to share the gospel? Are they called to reach out to the lost in their own lives? You would say yes, right? No matter what your view is on gender roles, you would say yes. Yeah, I would too. I would too. And you know what is required in discipleship? A grasp of and an ability to communicate some of these more academic and theologically complex topics. I'm not saying that you have to be a master theologian. Most men aren't master theologians either. But look, if a young woman, young college woman comes to me, she's not married, she's, you know, she's single, she shouldn't have

kids and she says, will you please, like, disciple me? Help me understand, like, what Christianity is about. Yeah, I might not get into eschatology right away, but it's eventually going to come up. So am I only supposed to teach this young woman what it means to be a wife and mom, which I think would be a really important part of a discipleship and mentorship relationship to be able to give that example for her, absolutely. But when she comes with these really complex questions, these theological questions about sin, about salvation and about sanctification, am I supposed to pass the baton to someone else, even though I am fully equipped to be able to answer those questions for her?

I want to know, genuinely. Like, are women called to a limited form of discipleship in which we have to then pass the torch to a man? Like, do I call my husband and say, hey, you know, Sally's got a question about theology. I do know the answer, but if I could just put you on speakerphone and you could answer it, that would be great. I'm not sure that that is what is required of us in Titus 2. Yes, women are supposed to teach those things.

I'm not sure that Titus 2 means that we are supposed to only teach those things. Yes, I don't believe that women are supposed to be pastors in a church. I don't believe that means that we are never in any context able to exeatite scripture. Okay, so John Piper is what I'm. I would also consider myself a complementarianist, an complementarian. Now, just to say, I don't agree with John Piper on everything. I don't. Like, I'm not looking to him as like the sole authority on this, but when it comes to a variety of things, like when it comes to eschatology, when it comes to biblical manhood and womanhood, I do think that I align most with John Piper and those in his camp.

Now, he said some, like, political things we've talked about on here that I totally disagree with. I actually theoretically disagree with some of those political statements. But that doesn't mean that I don't appreciate him in a lot of ways. So let me tell you a little bit about what he said as a complementarian on biblical manhood and womanhood. So in response to the idea that men and women can have equal roles, that they can both do anything that they want to do, he says, sin did not bring diversified complementary roles into existence. God did. So this means that before the fall, God ordained and fitted Adam to be a loving, caring, strong leader for his wife, Eve. God ordained and fitted Eve to be a partner who supports and honors that leadership and helps carry it through. Again, like I would say, and I think he would say, this doesn't mean that she is only always in a servant type role.

But when it comes to marriage, there is headship, there is submission. And in Ephesians 5, he says, Paul reiterates this creation order when he talks about husbands leaving their wives, being the head of the wives as Christ is the head of the church, wives being submissive to your husbands as to the Lord. Now, I always like to say this because, again, if you're a strong-willed gal like me, that might rub you the wrong way, the idea of submitting to your husband. But this is a woman protective passage. What would have been radical at the time that this was written was not the command for husbands to be the head of. their wives or not it wouldn't have been scandalous to say wives you should submit to their husbands. What would have been scandalous at the time was the command for husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her because the rampant idea at the time,

which has been rampant in different parts of history, is that wives are basically receptacles for their husbands. The husbands can do whatever they want to. They can have affairs. they can have mistresses. They can, you know, do what they want with their slaves. They have all the power. I've talked about this many times before that women during this time were really not seen or treated as full persons. And so they were subjugated in a lot of ways. So this passage would have been so offensive to the time, not because there were so many feminists running around and saying, what? I thought that wives should be leading their husbands. No. It was obvious that men at the time had more power over women, including husbands over their wives. would have been radical would have been the call to husbands to lay down their very lives for their wives. There are other parts of the New Testament that calls them to fidelity, exclusivity, monogamy, mutual submission in a lot of ways, and like mutual, even like a sexual fulfillment,

as we've talked about before in a lot of ways. And so these commands that I think a lot of feminist or a lot of people see today as, you know, anti-woman, actually, as they were written, would have been so radical in the sense that they are commanding men to act so differently than the other husbands at the time would have acted in a way that was humble and sacrificial and loving to the point of even death, just as Christ died for the sanctity for the love of the church. Now, John Piper says the real task of whether we have grasped Paul's depiction in Ephesians 5, is whether we apply it to life in the church. So he cites 1 Timothy 2 11 through 14.

Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach her have authority over men. She has to keep silent. Four, and this goes back to creation order, Adam was formed first then Eve. Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. So we do have to look at the context in all verses.

we look at the context. We use scripture to interpret scripture. We look at the original translation and we don't just say, I don't like that. So I'm going to try to find some commentary that agrees with my dislike of it so I can dismiss it. We just try to understand it better. And we say, wow, God's word, God's way is better than mine. So let me understand what this says. So John Piper says that the word for silence here is Heshuia. I don't know if I pronounce that correctly. Hesu Chia, probably. is used early in verse two, referring to the quiet life, which all godly people should lead. Pray that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.

If you look at the context and the original word, it doesn't mean absolute silence. It's more what we would call quietness. Piper says that quietness means not speaking in a way that compromises that authority, which God has set up within the church. so it doesn't mean that a woman can't give morning announcements. It doesn't mean that a woman can't sing. It doesn't mean that a woman can say absolutely nothing during a church service. It is talking about a particular kind of reverence that people are called to.

And if you look at the passage in its totality, the concern is the orderly nature of the meetings, the orderly nature of the church as well as the hierarchy. We know that God is a God of order. We see that from the beginning all the way to the end of Scripture. And so there was a disorder that was happening, not just an authority, but also just in behavior in these early congregations, that Paul, using the authority of Scripture and citing the creation was trying to rectify. It was less about saying that women cannot open their mouths and more to saying, look, there's an order to church just as there was an order to creation. And he says that we can look, a Piper says, we can look at other places where Paul, and others talk about women teaching. Titus 2, of course, says that older women are to teach the younger

women. Second Timothy 314 is where Paul tells Timothy to remember from whom he learned the scriptures, his mother and grandmother. And then Acts 8, 2018, 26 tells us when Priscilla and Akila heard Apollos, they took him and expounded to him the way of God more accurately. So every kind of teaching is not forbidden to women. There are examples of them teaching younger women, teaching children and in some way teaming up with their husbands to give private instruction. And so he says that it's probably safest based on interpretation and context to mean that a certain kind of teaching that relates to authority within the church is not permitted for women. And then he goes on to explain like what does authority actually mean.

It refers to the divine calling of spiritual gifted men to take primary responsibility as elders for Christ-like servant leadership and teaching in the church. And submission refers to the divine calling of the rest of the church, both men and women, to honor and affirm the leadership of the elders and to be equipped by it for the hundreds and hundreds of various ministries available to men and women in the service of Christ. He makes these points. According to Scripture, God intends for the entire church to be mobilized in ministry, male and female.

God intends to equip and mobilize the saints through a company of spiritual men who take primary responsibility for leadership and teaching in the church. Piper concludes by commending this to you for your belief and for your behavior because this is the way the scriptures teach us to order the church and God inspired the scriptures and God is good. There are some other questions. We don't have time to answer all of them, but there are some other questions that Piper answers about whether or not a woman can preach in the church at all. And he says she may be under the authority of the elders, but she is not under the authority of the New Testament.

And neither would they be for putting her in that situation. So he would say, no, a woman can't preach, you know, behind the pulpit, even if someone says, you know, she's under my authority. She's under the head of the pastor. So she, so he also answers the question about whether men and women can be employed in different types of ministry. Of course, he says, yes, women are. Women are called to share the gospel. Women are called to teach in a variety of ways. But again, it comes back to the authority and the order and the structure of the church. And yes, even the family. There are other things

that he answers. He talks about women in seminary, whether they can be teachers there. What I don't think is answered. And I guess is still up for debate. What I don't see explicitly in scripture is whether women can talk about these things at all. I don't see any biblical prohibition or even inhibition to women to be able to talk about things of biblical importance, even academic level importance. Theologically complex topics. Yes, we do typically rely on very wise and strong men for these things, but I don't see any exclusion of women when it comes to talking about the Bible, even expositing the Bible in some ways and in some context or talking about issues of cultural and political import. It seems that God has both gifted women with this and called some women to this.

Now, does that mean that there should be a dereliction of duty if we are wives and moms, that we should be prioritizing whatever other pursuits that we have before our priority of the home? No, but all of us in one way or another are focusing on a variety of things. Of course, it is a matter once again when it comes to our lives as women, as moms, as wives of ordering, of understanding our primary responsibilities, our primary roles, and ensuring that we are stewarding all of the time, all of the gifts, all the resources that God has given us for his glory within their proper biblical context. I take issue with different parts of the patriarchal view, that women have to stay at home until they get married, that they are not able to talk about doctrine or teach doctrine to other women.

I just don't see biblical support for it. And again, I think it's logically inconsistent if we believe that all women are called to share the gospel. All women are called to discipleship. All women are called to think and speak biblically. And look, I don't use this as, I don't use this as. a way to say, well, this is how we know that, you know, someone is, is justified in doing what they do. But I am very thankful that by the grace of God, by the grace of God, did I receive messages from women saying, I didn't know the gospel until this podcast, or I wasn't pro-life, or I was considering

having an abortion, or I was considering putting off having kids, maybe forever, because I was scared of the future or because I just wanted to do my job or whatever it was. By the complete power of God that he has used this podcast, thankfully and graciously to bring people to himself and to change minds and hearts on things that I think have spiritual and eternal impact. And there may come a day where he calls me away from this, where this is no longer my responsibility or no longer my role anymore. And I am open. of course to correction on all of these things. But I have to say, like, it's difficult for me to get the messages that I do and to receive the feedback that I do and to see the fruit that

God has, again, graciously and mercifully given to this podcast and what we talk about and meet those of you who come up to me with hands shaking and tears in your eyes and you telling me your testimony and how God has, like, used this book or this podcast or whatever to teach you something, it's really difficult for me to say, you know what? Like, this area is just not for any women. I don't know. I don't know. It's hard for me knowing what I know, not just about scripture, but also about some women, some women who are in ministry, some women who are writing books, some women who are doing the things that they do, again, within the biblical context of their authority and abilities, and to see the fruit and the products of that,

think, no, that's not for them. Again, primarily, most importantly, I'm not sure that the Bible supports excluding women from all of those roles. But also, I think that their fruit also indicates that God is doing really, really incredible things through them. All right, this is not an announcement. All I was going to say is that Mother's Day is coming up. And if there are some related bros out there, I hope you didn't feel, I hope you didn't feel like I was exercising too much authority over you. but I'm going to tell you what to do now. And I think it's within my realm of authority. And that is that you should get your wife relatable gear.

You should. And even if she doesn't listen to this podcast, which she probably does, but even if she doesn't, you should get her relatable gear and then she'll start listening to it. Be like, I bought you this. You need to start listening to relatable. Get her corduroy hat. Get her crew neck sweatshirt.

I mean, it's about to be kind of hot, but she can wear it in the fall. We have a lot of cute fall colors. We got a lot of time. T-shirts. We got a lot of toots. I use my tote all the time. You can get a sticker, but you can use Mom 10 for 10% off. Mom 10. That's a promo code at Alliemerge.com. We'll put it in the description of this episode. You can click on it. Alleymerch.com. Use code Mom 10 for 10% off. Mother's Day's coming up, Related Bros. Get the Related Bell in your life, some relatable gear. All right, do I have any

more announcements for you. I don't think that I do. Go back and listen to Rosario's episode, if you haven't done that yet. She's amazing. And it's a super, super encouraging episode. Okay, we've got a lot to talk about this week. Send me the stuff that you want me to talk about if you haven't done that already. And I'll see you back here tomorrow. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the Day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality.

We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.