Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 807 | 'Loving the Foreigner' Means Opposing Illegal Immigration | Guest: Barry Latzer

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.

Starting point is 00:00:40 The immigration crisis and the crime crisis in our country is creating an unstable, chaotic situation that most Americans really want to fix. So what is going on? What are the policies that are causing all of this? And what can we do to fix it? We're going to go through everything that's happened in the past week or so since Title 42 has gone away, resulting in a surge of migrants at the southern border, all the problems there. But I'm also going to talk to a crime expert, Barry Latter. He is a professor. He's written several books on the criminal justice system in America. And we're going to take a look at that, a really fascinating look at that. And he's going to propose some very real, a very viable solution for how we can actually. reduce crime in the United States. And he and I will also discuss this terrible story of

Starting point is 00:01:31 Jordan Neely and now Daniel Penny, who is being charged with manslaughter for that whole subway debacle that we talked about a couple weeks ago. So really important, really good episode that I think that you're going to learn a lot from. It's brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers, which is American Meat delivered right to your front door. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use code Alley for a discount. Good Ranchers.com. Code Allie. Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Wednesday. Hope everyone's having a wonderful week. Make sure you go back and listen to yesterday's episode, my interview with Holly Simon about terrible tragedy that they had to endure at their family farm in Fort Smith, Arkansas. It might seem like a random local story that I'm telling you,

Starting point is 00:02:22 but it really has bigger implications. We're talking about people's lives. So make sure that you contact the people that we gave you the contact information for to make sure that we ensure the resignation of Rita Watkins. That's, it's just a way that we can share arrows with someone who shares our values and is seeking justice, not just for her family, but also seeking protection for her community. All right, today we are going to talk about this migrant crisis that is happening, much thanks to Biden's border policies or lack of border policies. And we're also going to talk about the problems within our criminal justice system with our guest. We're going to discuss the Jordan Neely situation, the former Marine

Starting point is 00:03:04 Daniel Penny putting him in a headlock, accidentally killing him because Penny was or because Neely was harassing the people in the subway cart. So like what led to then this former Marine being charged with manslaughter facing 15 years of prison while this guy who never should have been out of jail was free to harass people in the subway? We're going to talk about the entire system that led to something like that and what the solutions could possibly be.

Starting point is 00:03:31 Then we'll get his insight a little bit on the history of immigration very, very fascinating conversation. But before we get into the criminal justice, so-called conversation and the immigration conversation with Mr. Latter, I did just want to give you an update some stats, some recent stories about what is going on at our border, why this actually matters, and why this is one of those topics where the weaponization of toxic empathy can be really effective, I think, especially for Christian women, who are just kind of, they decontextualize that verse, that Christians should care for the, or that we should care for the foreigners, that we should care for the sojourners because we were once sojourners. That of course is what Israel is told in the Old Testament by the

Starting point is 00:04:14 Lord, but that is completely decontextualized from the rest of the policies that centered on migrants and foreigners and sojourners in ancient Israel and also just ignores the truth of the dangers of illegal immigration and also just mass migration in general. It is not compassionate to be for liberal border policy. It is not compassionate to just say, yes, you should come to our country to have a better life simply because you want to. It's not compassionate and it's also dumb. Because if you care about the cohesiveness, the stability of your country, which I believe that we are called to care about, as people who love our neighbors, as people who have been providentially, purposely placed in the city, in the state, in the country, in

Starting point is 00:05:00 which we dwell. If we care about the stability of a country, we have to care about the sovereignty of the country because without sovereignty of a country, there is no legitimate basis for law enforcement. There's no legitimate basis for citizenship. There's no legitimate basis for unique rights that are afforded to people because they are citizens. And without that, you don't have a nation. And if you don't have a nation, you have no entity that can actually keep you collectively secure. No one looking out for the best interest of their constituents of the people that they were actually elected or appointed to lead. That's a problem. God created nations. He created the borders. He created these human systems. We read in Romans 13 that governments were actually put in place

Starting point is 00:05:46 to be tools for good, to be punishers of wrongdoing. There is a goodness and a righteousness in that in these systems called governments and nations, which have to be. to be held together by borders and sovereignty. So when you ignore that, when you let that fly out the window, you're not only lacking compassion for the people that you're incentivizing to come here in a very dangerous way and putting the people at the border, the American citizens at risk there, you are also forsaking God's good idea of nations and borders and people groups. So let's talk a little bit about what's going on. We've already covered this. I think we covered it a little bit last week at the end of last week, that last Thursday,

Starting point is 00:06:34 May 11th was the final day that Title 42 would be in fact. In effect, Title 42 was a holdover from President Trump's immigration policy that allowed officials to turn away migrants on public health emergency grounds during the COVID-19 pandemic. Biden tried to end Title 42 last year, but Republicans sued him arguing that the restrictions were necessary for border security and the courts ruled to keep it in place. But now that Biden has announced the end of national COVID-19 emergencies, three years later, the border restrictions have now gone away. And I do wonder if that was actually why they got rid of the national COVID emergency policies, simply so they could have a basis for getting rid of Title 42 and allowing the surge of migrants. The AP reports that now there will be

Starting point is 00:07:22 strict consequences for trying to cross illegally. They will not be allowed to return for five years. It can face criminal prosecution if they do. But that doesn't seem to be what's going on. There are some reporters that have gotten some footage from the border and they see these migrants coming in and they are processed and they're given these kind of court dates to say, yeah, you have to come back and we'll, you know, process your request for asylum and things like that. And these people aren't really seeking asylum. They say that they're asylum seekers. They say that they're refugees, but there are actual definitions to that. You're not an asylum seeker or refugee just because you're coming here for a better life. That would be everyone in the world then.

Starting point is 00:08:00 Wanting a better job is not seeking asylum. That could be a reason to try to legally migrate somewhere, but that's not a justification for being able to illegally cross into a place to try to seek some kind of refuge. Having a hard life is not a good enough reason to be able to come here just because you want to. So reporter Taylor Hansen, he has seen some of these documented some of these court dates, these documents that these migrants are getting. They're also given a government issued cell phone. And apparently it is pre-programmed with some kind of app that keeps track of them. I'm not sure how effective that is. But some of these court dates apparently are as late as 2027. And most of these people don't show up for their court dates. And there's no

Starting point is 00:08:53 consequences really if you don't show up for your court days. There's no guaranteed consequences. And so it's all just a joke. So here's a video of some of these migrants who just crossed the border saying that they need to be here for whatever reason, given these government issued phones. All right. This is also leading, as you can imagine, to an overcrowding of these migrant facilities. We saw that terrible story in Brownsville, Texas, a couple weeks ago where there was someone who looked like a migrant himself. He was definitely Hispanic. I don't know what country he was. was a citizen of, but he took his car and he rammed through a group of migrants outside this migrant facility, killing several of them, including children. And part of this is because these places

Starting point is 00:09:49 are just overwhelmed. I mean, they have so many migrants because these migrants are incentivized to come. They know that it's pretty easy to get over our border just because border security isn't well funded and Biden isn't doing his part. So it's basically just Texas that's trying to like hold the line here. And so this leads to all kinds of dangers. This leads to all kinds of poor health outcomes for these migrants who are here. So here's a video of a very overcrowded facility in El Paso. What do you notice about that, by the way? Those are all men, all grown men. Now, maybe this was just a, this is just a shot of where the men are. Maybe the men and women are separated all of a sudden we pretend like we know the difference between male and female when it

Starting point is 00:10:53 comes to migrant facilities. But these are all grown men. They're not starving, clearly. They've got their clothes on. They've got their shoes on. They're ready to come into America because they claim that they need to be here. This also just, this picture alone just signifies one of the issues with mass migration is that these countries that they are fleeing from experience something called brain drain. And that is when all of the people with any means or any just kind of like mental coherence leave those countries to go to another country making the countries that they leave even worse. I understand that El Salvador and Columbia aren't great places to live for a variety of reasons. El Salvador is trying to clean itself up right now with some tough on crime policies.

Starting point is 00:11:42 But I mean, that doesn't mean that these people have a right to come here. It also doesn't mean that it's actually beneficial for America or for the places that they're leaving. So it's just bad all around. Agents were told to begin releases in any areas holding facilities that were at 125% capacity. This is according to the AP or the average time in custody exceeded 60 hours. So they just have to be released. They were also told to start releasing these men, mostly men, if 7,000 migrants were taken into custody across the entire border in any one day. Like so you see that a a secretary of myorkas who claims by the way that the border is totally secure who claims that everything is fine like you see that they might have they might have some kind of policies in place

Starting point is 00:12:28 ostensibly but they're all being any kind of security is being broken if these quotas are reached which they are these people they they hear about the policies in the united states and they come here based on how easy they think it's going to be to get across and that's why we've seen such a surge since Biden became president because they don't care. They actually want this. They like this. They like the chaos. They like the reorganizing of cities. They like the change in demographics because they think that it's going to help them win more elections, either with integrity or not, and that it's going to help them achieve the agenda that they have. That's what it is. And so part of it is because, like I said, this kind of toxic, warped, dumb,

Starting point is 00:13:17 a fake empathy that makes people think that it's our responsibility to accept every single person in the world who wants to come here. No other country thinks that. Like, you don't have a right to go to Zambia and to say, I'm just going to be here and take your resources and take your jobs. You don't have a right to go to other countries and do that. And, like, we're okay with African countries, you know, kicking an American out who says that they're entitled to be there, but we're not okay with saying it when it comes to protecting our own sovereignty. It doesn't make any sense. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political.

Starting point is 00:13:57 They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they lead, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this T-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. So the memo that is calling for the release of these migrants if these facilities, you know, reach the 7th or reach the 125% capacity or whatever.

Starting point is 00:14:48 It's called the parole with conditions practice. It's a process that's typically reserved for urgent humanitarian reasons. or significant public benefit. But that is not really the justification that's going on here. That's not really applicable. And Stephen Miller is a senior advisor to President Trump. He's founder of America First Legal. He was talking about this on Fox Business last week,

Starting point is 00:15:14 and he's big immigration hawk. He talks about this a lot. He talks about the Fox News report that they don't get an alien registration number, these people who were released in the name of parole, and they don't receive a court date. And he says, we are living through the Democrats in game. They have been systemically stripping away every last piece of the Trump immigration policies for the last two years.

Starting point is 00:15:34 And they're replacing it with something called the parole scheme. And it's a scheme whereby an illegal alien, he says, is paroled into the country, given a two-year immunity from deportation and the chance to apply for a work permit. The Biden administration is trying to push as many illegal aliens into the parole system. It's a DACA-like benefit to try to legalize illegal immigration. that is what they have been working towards for two years. And now we are seeing people from around the world trying to get their amnesty benefits. And that's true.

Starting point is 00:16:04 Like I've seen the pictures, the videos of the Chinese, all grown men, again, Chinese migrants, trying to get in through the southern border because of Biden's policies. The Florida Attorney General, there's been some legal pushback, sued the Secretary of Homeland Security, Alejandro Mayorkas, and the Biden administration. over this. I mean, basically, you know, because this is causing a lack of security, it's a dereliction of duty from the federal government. And there is a big fear of the security risk of this. And this is a legitimate fear. There is an Afghan national that is on the FBI's terror watch list that was arrested this week as he was crossing the border near San Diego with a group of

Starting point is 00:16:51 migrants. Of course, guys. Like, think through this a little bit. Like, push past the superficial definitions of empathy that are being used to simply emotionally extort you and manipulate you and think about this. If you are letting through surges of people without any background checks, without any kind of accountability whatsoever, you are going to get terrorists. Yes, you are going to get very dangerous people that are not only a terror to immigrants in this country, it's a terrorist to citizens in this country, it's a terror to everyone. There's no compassion in allowing these people unchecked to surge into our country. It is a recipe for chaos.

Starting point is 00:17:39 It's immoral. The New York Post reported that a previous order to let migrants go with notices to report to ICE had been tried in 2021 who's unsuccessful as thousands of those migrants simply didn't ever check in. It is an absolute mess. Secretary Majorch is though for his part. He's saying that everything is going absolutely swimmingly loves it. He says that the border is totally secure, recently said. I think it was in his testimony before Congress that well, you know, a million people were deported last year. It doesn't really matter how many people were deported. It doesn't really matter. It matters how many people actually got in. So you can't say that the border is secure just because a certain number of people got deported. What really tells us whether the border is porous or secure is how many people were actually able to get in. And the stats say that 1.5 million gotaways. There are 1.5 million gotaways at the border under the Biden administration. Wow. This is illegal. These are illegal immigrants who are known to have entered the country but had not been caught. So we're going to see, of course, even more of this.

Starting point is 00:18:49 Fox News is also reporting that in the past two days, in the past two days, there were six arrests, six arrests of people on the FBI's terror watch list. Awesome. 2023 88. I'm glad the FBI is doing their job when it comes to this. But how many of them were in that group of 1.5 million? and Godaways. This is something that we should care about, right? Biden himself doesn't seem to know what's going on or where he is or what his job title is. He says that things are great. Here he is. Okay, so you probably couldn't hear what he said because there were press in there yelling.

Starting point is 00:19:44 But someone asked him, what do you think about the border? He said, it's getting much better. You see it? It's getting much better. Probably didn't know. He was probably talking about, I don't know, the border of the construction paper craft that his handlers had him do that morning as a brain exercise. So in New York City, they are sending migrants to public school gyms. The parents of the kids who attend those schools are like, I'm sorry? What exactly is happening here? There was this horrible story. And this just goes to show again, no compassion for anyone involved when we allow these. kind of policies to flourish. This is according to the Tampa Bay Times that a teen died after a seizure at a migrant shelter. A 17-year-old from Honduras, Angel Eduardo Meridiaga, Espinoza, died during his sleep, likely due to having an epileptic seizure in his sleep and becoming unconscious. The teen

Starting point is 00:20:43 had been transferred by the HHS Office of Refugee Resettlement to the Safety Harbor Migrant Shelter run by Gulf Coast Jewish Family and Children Services in Florida. he was in the process of being placed with his cousin in Tampa, his sponsor in the U.S., but look, because they don't have the resources. We've got too many people there. And so we're incentivizing these very, very dangerous tracks. We do not have their resources to be able to care for these people. In a lot of cases, we're handing them off to nonprofits who are willing to do good service

Starting point is 00:21:13 and to help, but we can't handle it. And so we're putting people at risk, not to mention, we're incentivizing, enabling the cartels, trafficking the guns, trafficking the drugs, trafficking the human beings, raping and assaulting and impregnating these young girls, you're encouraging all of that when you take away strict border policy that encourages these people to come in. And so it's all very, very sad. It is a complete dereliction of duty. Even the most libertarian person among you should be able to recognize that it is at the very least the government's job to protect the border. It is at the very least the government's job to care for the safety and the security of his

Starting point is 00:22:00 country first. First, before you even consider the well-being of people from other countries, before you even consider the interests of people of other countries, you should be prioritizing relentlessly and unabashedly the safety, security and interests of your country first. That doesn't mean that you hate other countries. It doesn't mean that you think that you're inherently better than other countries. It just means that you're responsible, that you are actually taking the job that God has given you, according to Romans 13, seriously and righteously. I just, as you can tell, I just have like such an impatience and intolerance towards Christians who think they're being loving by being for liberal border policy and thinking it's hateful and it's unchristian to not be or to be America first or whatever. Look, you feed your family, even though you don't feed everything.

Starting point is 00:22:48 everyone else's family right you lock your doors you live with walls up you don't let just anyone into your house that wants to come in there just because they're having a difficult night just because they might be hungry sure you do other things to help those who are in need but you don't let people into your house who just want to be there and sleep in your kids bed right does that mean you're a bigot does that mean you hate your neighbors does that mean that you aren't caring for the least of these, no, it just means that you are doing what you are called to do, which is steward the needs and the well-being and the safety of your family first. That's what God has called you to. And on a bigger level, because nations are like families, that's what the government is called to do.

Starting point is 00:23:31 So this dereliction of duty is wicked. It's wicked. And not just when it comes to immigration, but when it comes to crime in general, the failure of our officials to actually care for and protect, the safety of the citizenry is wicked. And we're going to talk about why that is today with our guest. And he's going to get into all of the ins and the outs and the history of all this, which is very interesting in what we can actually do to fix it. Mr. Latter, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. Before we get started, could you tell us who you are and what you do?

Starting point is 00:24:22 I'm Barry Litzer. I'm an emeritus professor of criminal justice. I taught for over three and a half decades at John Jay College of Criminal Justice, which is a part of the City University of New York. I'm retired, but very active writing, and my latest book is called The Myth of Overpunishment. It's about imprisonment, and it's really a response to some of the progressive or woke claims about mass incarceration. I want to talk about that before we even talk about what we're really here to discuss, which is Title 42 in the immigration crisis.

Starting point is 00:25:08 But I'm very interested in the subject of your book because we hear a lot, even from those who consider themselves maybe on the right, libertarian, center right, that we do have a mass incarceration problem. And because we have a mass incarceration problem, that the solution to any of our crime is, issues in any of the cities is not to put people in jail. It shouldn't be what they refer to as punitive justice. It should be restorative justice, social justice, all these kind of fluffy words. So you're saying that we don't have an over-incarceration problem in the United States.

Starting point is 00:25:46 Well, let me throw some numbers at you, and I'll be gentle on this now. It's hard for people to follow numbers. I know that. The Census Bureau, the federal government does a crime victim survey every year. And it's an enormous survey as surveys go. They interview two, last time they did it, 249,000 people. And by way of contrast, you may notice that these political surveys done by the Gallup poll, for instance, always involve something less than a thousand people. So the result is their survey is, that is the Census Bureau survey, is much more accurate. Well, based on this survey, each year we have 5.8 million violent attacks, 12.8 million property

Starting point is 00:26:43 offenses such as burglary or theft. For a total of over 18 million victimizations, criminal victimizations, nationwide. Now, a lot of these attacks or victimizations are not reported. Fewer than half are reported to the police. Nevertheless, the police arrest millions of people, as you'd expect, big country, a lot of criminals. In fact, they arrested 10 million people in 2019. My data is pre-pandemic because the pandemic threw things off, as you might imagine, and also because there's a lag in the reporting of the data. So in 2019, there were 10 million arrests made of criminal suspects. Of the 10 million, and here's the key point, you end up with 1.4 million put into jail. Jail is where you go

Starting point is 00:27:50 after you're arrested and you stay there usually just a few days until you are brought before a judge, that's called an arraignment. And when you're arraigned, usually you're released. So you only spend a few days in jail. Jails are short-term institutions. What about the really serious offenders for whom there is a great deal of evidence that they committed a crime? 570. 770,000, 77,000 of them went into prison in 2019. So we have 18.6 million crimes, 10 million arrests, and only 57,000 people actually going into prison. So just on the face of it, you have to say, I think,

Starting point is 00:28:45 it's not clear that there's mass incarceration here. In fact, only murderers stand a pretty good chance of being incarcerated. They have about a 49% imprisonment rate, those who commit murder. Only 49% are 49% of people who are charged with murder end up in prison? Of the crimes reported to the victim's survey. So, of course, murder victims obviously don't report to the civil. But we have the most accurate data for murders because you have dead bodies. So we know, the police know, and we know how many murders there are every year.

Starting point is 00:29:34 Of course, for people who die from natural causes, there's a debt certificate prepared by a physician, and we know that they're not murder victims. But we know how many murder victims there are every year. And the data on that, we have multiple sources, the police, the centers for disease control in Washington also keep those records. So we know pretty well how many murders there are. And 49% of the murders are solved with people actually going to prison. For rape and robbery and aggravated assault, the other serious violent crimes, Less than 6% of the incidents reported by victims lead to imprisonment.

Starting point is 00:30:25 So these are extremely low figures. So when they talk about mass incarceration, one has to ask, well, really, compared to the number of crimes, this doesn't look like excessive incarceration. And that's because it isn't. Right. And you've written a lot about why we have the crime problems that we do. In your estimation, is it because we don't incarcerate enough people that we continue to have high crime? And especially in these kind of progressive cities with the progressive DAs and the progressive judges, you just see these serial criminals let out on the street. I mean, is that what motivates people to continue to commit crimes? Because there's just very little punishment. We haven't been doing this long enough to know, to be perfectly honest. There are some preliminary studies that indicate that in cities where you have prosecutors who are excessively lenient,

Starting point is 00:31:29 that it is a cause of increased crime. But these are preliminary, it's provisional data. So to be perfectly candid, to be perfectly honest, about these things, we're not sure yet. However, I do know from my work on the history of crime that when in the late 1960s, the system was very lenient. Police made relatively fewer arrests, sentences were much shorter, time served in prison was much reduced. When that happened, It was apparently a big spur, a big incentive to more crime. So we know from history that when the criminal justice system is weakened substantially,

Starting point is 00:32:21 when they don't arrest or punish as many people who are committing crimes, that is an incentive to more criminality. So that's not, you know, a shocking assertion or shocking claim. That's what we'd expect. So I would think if we continue with a lot of leaning in prosecutors, especially in big cities where there's a great deal of crime, if we continue to release people who commit crimes, I think that will serve to incentivize more crime.

Starting point is 00:32:58 Because we do know that people who are in prison and are released do recidivate in very high numbers. In fact, Ali, 83% of those who are released from prison commit an additional crime, at least one, and are re-arrested. 83%. That's a scary number. Yeah. There was, of course, that subway situation with a guy named Jordan Neely, who he ended up being

Starting point is 00:33:28 killed by the Marine, put in a chokehold because he was harassing people, threatening violence and things like that. But, I mean, he had been arrested apparently 42 times. one of them for assaulting an elderly woman. And so it's a disservice not just to Jordan Neely, but also to the community around you when you don't have any mechanisms in place to apparently, or you're not willing to put the mechanisms in place to really protect people in the name of social justice, I guess. Absolutely.

Starting point is 00:33:57 Yeah. Absolutely. These so-called low-level crimes can be serious, as was certainly the case with the woman. who was assaulted. And even if it's not that bad, if people on the street sense that there's no punishment at all really for doing these crimes. And you know, the police are not going to keep arresting people if there's no prosecution. So if a prosecutor like this Alvin Bragg in Manhattan, if he says, well, I'm not going to prosecute these, quote, low-level crimes anymore. I don't want to fill up the jails and prisons, what will happen is the police won't arrest people who commit these

Starting point is 00:34:42 offenses. Well, of course, that in and of itself causes more disorder in the streets and probably, we don't know yet, probably incentivizes more serious offenses. So it's very disturbing. And by the way, the communities most affected by this are communities where you have high crime and high disorder. And those are often minority and poor minority communities. So who's really paying the price for this? Not the more affluent people who have gates around their communities, who have security guards, who have a means for self-protection, but rather the poorer people who don't.

Starting point is 00:35:29 So, yeah, I think these are terrible policies, very misguided. And in fact, not even necessary. It's just silliness. The really serious offenses, the ones filling up the prisons, they have to be prosecuted anyway. And even these woke prosecutors will say, well, of course, I'm going to go after the serious offenders. Yeah. And you know, it's strange because you see, though, that it's not just about keeping people out of prison because this Marine who put Jordan Neal's, in a chokehold, he is, he's charged with manslaughter. He's facing 15 years with prison. His name is Daniel Penny. So obviously, if it was just about not prosecuting crime, if it was just about not putting people in prison, you wouldn't be criminalizing what a lot of people are calling self-defense. There was another, I think, a bodega owner who killed someone who was, he was actually being attacked with a knife. And this bodega owner killed the person who was trying to attack him. And

Starting point is 00:36:35 Alvin Bragg ended up dropping the charges of murder, but I'm pretty sure that he was charged with murder. And so it's about criminalizing, I think, self-defense in a lot of cases and not criminalizing things like assault. So I don't know, there's some racial quotas behind it, but it's very strange. It's not just about emptying the prisons. No, absolutely, because you could see this prosecutor's judgment. And, you know, most of us, and I think most of the public will think this judgment is warped. When you have this case with Neely, I think most people will consider Mr. Penny to be a hero rather than a criminal. We'll have to see if the grand jury, which of course is a Manhattan grand jury and Manhattanites are known for being very liberal and very pro-democratic, which is why

Starting point is 00:37:23 they elected Mr. Bragg in the first place. We'll have to see what the grand jury does. And of course, even if the grand jury were to indict him, that's formal accusation is what it amounts to, formal accusation of a felony. Even if they indict him, I suspect that Mr. Penny is not going to take a plea and will go to trial. And if he does, then the public, through speaking through a jury, will have another chance to acquit him. And I certainly hope they do because I think that he is something of a hero. Most people on the subway, if they see a person with obviously some sort of mental disorder acting out, well, they go the other way.

Starting point is 00:38:15 You walk to the other end of the car so that you don't have to sit near him, and you get out, perhaps, in the next subway stop and move to a different car altogether. This fellow Penny took initiative and protected his fellow riders. So I think most people are going to view him as a hero. But we'll see. We'll see what happened. So I agree with you. Yeah, go ahead.

Starting point is 00:38:43 It's not just about, you know, emptying the jails. He's making a judgment here, too, that this sort of behavior, which, as I say, can be really seen as heroic behavior, should be. instead criminalized. So he's making judgments here. And at some point, I think the public will make a judgment on him when he has to stand for election and we'll see what happens. People wonder why, you know, there's always those videos that go viral. A lot of times on the New York subway, but other times it's at like a Walmart or something like that where someone is clearly harming someone else. They're attacking someone else. I saw this video not too long ago

Starting point is 00:39:35 of a woman on a subway and this guy, he seemed really erratic. I don't know if he was homeless or whatever, but he was sitting next to this woman by herself and grabbed her by the back of the head and just held on to her hair. And she was looking around and she was saying, help me, help me. No one did anything. The person filming didn't do anything. No one around.

Starting point is 00:39:57 And, okay, so we can all criticize them and say, you know, why wouldn't you do something? And then we look at what happened with Penny and we're like, well, that's why? Because it's not worth it to a lot of people to risk their jobs, risk their lives, and go to jail because now self-defense or defending someone else is being criminalized. And that's a really dangerous place to be. Yes, well put.

Starting point is 00:40:21 Well put. And by the way, in the criminal law, just to be technical about it legally, there is such a thing called defense of others. And the theory of the criminal laws, if you come to the rescue of self-reux, if you come to the rescue of someone else, you're in the shoes, so to speak, of the person being victimized. You have the same rights that they do to defend themselves. Those rights are in effect transferred to you when you're acting to protect them. So yeah, you're right. It makes people say, well, gee, look what happened to this guy, Penny. He tried to help out, and they branded him a criminal and prosecuted him for it.

Starting point is 00:41:02 So sure, it discourages people from being good Samaritans and trying to help their fellow human beings. And the Lord knows we need more of that kind of behavior, especially in the big city where everything is anonymous and you have no friends to help you. You have to rely often on strangers. And I'm wondering what your kind of solution to this recidivism thing is. because you talk about, even in the title of your book, you said a proposal to reduce incarceration while protecting the public. Because sometimes I think about this, okay, someone like Jordan Ely, he had all these past arrests.

Starting point is 00:41:42 But we don't believe in, you know, putting someone in jail for the rest of their lives for theft or even assault. We don't believe that that should be a life sentence. And so what is the solution besides just keeping someone in jail forever? If this man and others like him has serious mental disorders, disorder, then we have civil provisions, as they're called, non-criminal provisions, where we can hospitalize and institutionalize, except that 30, 40 years ago, they closed all the mental hospitals.

Starting point is 00:42:20 They closed all the hospitals that provided psychiatric care. Not all of them, I'm exaggerating, but many of them. Well, this, I think, is a big policy error. because there are many people who need continuing care. Probably this Mr. Neely needed continuing care. That's why he was arrested over 40 times. So I think it would certainly be a help to the criminal justice system if people received mental health care

Starting point is 00:42:55 instead of being left to their own devices left on the streets where if they don't take their meds, they may be acting out, they may have psychotic episodes, and they may harm themselves or others. So this is a very bad policy. Set aside the criminal justice policies that we were talking about, the lenient prosecutors. This notion that people who really need medical care should be left to their own devices, should be left free to do what they want is really a dangerous policy, a very unwise policy. People who are a risk to themselves or others, serious risk, as a result of mental disease,

Starting point is 00:43:49 they need to be placed in an institution for people to get help, to get psychiatric help. And these institutions need to be reopened, revitalized, and rebuilt so that we can get a handle on this problem, which is, as I say, plays into the criminal justice issue because many of the people arrested, many of the people jailed and even in prison are there in part because of mental disorders. So, you know, it would help us in terms of aiding the people who have the issues, helping clear the streets of people who are mentally disabled, which is a large percentage of the so-called homeless population, and also reducing the crime problem, because when they commit crimes, the police, of course, are called in. So I think it's win, win, win, and we need to

Starting point is 00:44:56 reopen the psychiatric hospitals. Yes. And obviously, like, there is, there would have to be a lot of oversight when it comes to civil liberties and things like that. It's especially difficult for those who don't have family advocating for them, making sure that their best interest are being sought after. I do wonder even about this whole Jordan Neely thing. I didn't even, I figured, you know, the guy probably doesn't have family. He's obviously homeless. He's on the subway. He's harassing people. And then the family pops up when there is a television camera in front of them and when there is money to be sought after. And I just wonder, where were you? Where were you when this person was harassing and assaulting people on the subway and was arrested 44 times and needed your support

Starting point is 00:45:41 then? I mean, who knows? I can't completely judge them because I don't know the entire situation. but now they've been able to hire lawyers and all of that. These people really need more than anything. Some kind of familial support, someone who loves them enough to say, no, I'm not going to let you live that way. I think the lack of support, lack of family structure is also just a huge problem that exacerbates crime, it seems. Yeah, I think, Ali, these people are so difficult to help and manage and care for. you'd have to devote your life and your time. And, you know, people have their own families.

Starting point is 00:46:19 They have jobs. And if a loved one is in this terrible situation, it can be extremely difficult on the family to care for him. And so you're right. Of course, they just popped up at the last minute. Maybe the lawyers encouraged them and said you can make money off this. But the truth is these people need professional care. They can't be cared for by their families often. And, you know, they're grownups.

Starting point is 00:46:51 And if they say, I'm not staying here, I don't want to have anything to do with you. I'd rather be out on my own. Well, what can you do about that? Not much. Yeah, that's very true. You know, I'm sympathetic to the families too. But I take your point that there should have been earlier intervention. But there's no place for them.

Starting point is 00:47:12 If they put them in a halfway house, they can leave on their own, at their own, you know, free will. They can leave. And then they don't take their meds. And then we have psychotic episodes, crime and, you know, horrible situations. You know, it's true. Access to real mental health services, especially where you can go live somewhere, it seems like that's really only accessible for people who have just tens of thousands. of dollars to be able to spend. I mean, I know people who have had that get real help, you know, rehabilitation and things

Starting point is 00:47:48 like that. And I know how much it costs to go to a nice place that is going to really take care of you and to really help you. I mean, it's true. Most families, even if they want to help and can help, they can't, they just can't afford to the help. And so I agree. That's a huge, huge problem.

Starting point is 00:48:06 Yeah. Yeah, we really need to rethink our views. I mean, I remember, I'm old enough to remember when they closed so many of these hospitals, Ali, and the argument was, you know, they're abusive, they're mistreating people, and there were some horror stories. There were. But, of course, they were exaggerated, and the whole movement to deinstitutionalize, as they called it, it snowballed. It gained a lot of traction in part because of these incidents that occurred.

Starting point is 00:48:42 And then, of course, you even had the culture in general supporting this. I can recall the movie. Maybe you've seen it on video. One flew over the cuckoo's nest. Yes. Yeah, it's a classic, right? And I remember when it came out, and of course, I'm not blaming the movie, obviously, but the movie presented what was then the prevailing view,

Starting point is 00:49:09 which is that these places restrain people and keep them from freely living their own lives, living the way they want to live. But of course, you know, that was one side of the story and it was not the only side of the story. So this turned out to be a very bad policy choice. Yes. And it's especially bad for big cities, as we see now, San Francisco and cities where the weather is warm, people are out in the streets all the time.

Starting point is 00:49:43 Camp, they camp in the streets. And what about the public's right to use these public spaces, parks and streets? No consideration is even given to that sometimes. Now, it's an awful policy, a big mistake, big mistake, but not too late. like we're wealthy enough. We could reverse this and start down a different road. Yeah, and hopefully I think that there is growing bipartisan support for that because you don't have to be a Republican to say,

Starting point is 00:50:14 I want to be able to take my kid to the park in San Francisco without stepping over needles or getting my car hijacked. I saw some viral threat on Twitter. If someone, he took his kid to the park, he was gone for 45 minutes, he knew that you can't leave anything in your car in San Francisco, but someone broke into his car, glass all over the car seat, and then he, you know, calls the police. And he knows the police aren't going to do anything,

Starting point is 00:50:39 but just for the statistics, he just wanted to file the report. Well, even that is a complicated process that takes hours to do. And so, but then San Francisco will say things like, well, crime is down. But that's probably because they don't even have the system in police to properly report the crime. So that's a whole problem in itself. But I did just want to say something about the psychiatric class, because most of the things that we're talking about are the failure of progressive policies. But it was Ronald Reagan.

Starting point is 00:51:08 He was one of the people who were really in California and then continued to push for the closing down of these psychiatric hospitals. And that was 1980 was the Mental Health Systems Act of 1980. And then I just wanted to see if there was any like coinciding timeline. And I don't know if, you know, it was inspired by this at all. But one flew over the cuckoo's nest, which is a great film, by the way. That was 1975. So I'm sure they were kind of happening simultaneously as maybe, I don't know, society in general had less tolerance for these mental health institutions. But Reagan's policies in California and the nationally and one flew over the cuckoo's nest, they do kind of overlap.

Starting point is 00:51:52 So it's interesting. It's interesting how that happened. Look, I mean, you know, you probe anybody. politicians' positions, and if he's been around long enough, you're going to find him that he's taken some positions that may be embarrassing later on. Joe Biden was the one who shepherded through the U.S. Senate, the Crime Control Act of 1994. Of course, he doesn't want to remind his progressive supporters about that. That was a pretty strong criminal justice bill. And he was one of the leaders who got it through the Senate. So, you know, if a politician's

Starting point is 00:52:29 has been around long enough, he probably has taken positions that embarrass them nowadays. But, yeah, hindsight is. You know, so what? It doesn't matter. We need to pick the right path and stay on it, whether it's Republicans or Democrats in charge. Okay, I want to talk about this migrant crisis. That's actually what we originally, we saw your opinion piece in the Wall Street Journal titled, This Isn't the First Migrant Crisis. That's why we wanted to have you on. But then we just got into the same. interesting conversation, but they're not disconnected. I mean, these things are connected in some

Starting point is 00:53:16 way, just the systems in America and how they're failing in things. But your main argument is that this is not the first migrant crisis. You're referring to the end of Title 42, the expected surge of migrants. Of course, we've seen this over the past few years, but especially concerned right now with Title 42, which was the remain in Mexico policy. Trump, because of COVID, was able to say, okay, if you come here, you got to remain in Mexico until we decide what to do with you, basically. So a lot of people are concerned that the migrant crisis is going to get even worse. We're not securing our border. Majoricus doesn't seem to care.

Starting point is 00:53:51 What's your take on all of that? Let me preface this by saying I'm not really an expert on immigration, notwithstanding that op-ed. And also, the Biden administration has come up with a new policy. It's very complicated, actually. I read through it. I don't know it in detail, but it's a very complicated policy. So they are trying to address the situation, but whether they can actually implement this policy, part of which involves people staying in Mexico and applying for asylum when they are asylum applicants.

Starting point is 00:54:33 So part of this is borrowing, you know, from the Trump era policies. Whether this will work or not is a whole other question. Now, first, on the issue of whether illegal immigrants, let's call them, people who come here illegally, are committing crimes or contributing to the crime rise. The answer is we don't know yet. And I know that sounds like a cop-out alleyed. But that's the fact. It's very hard to get data on this sort of thing. It's hard because we don't separately track people who enter the United States illegally

Starting point is 00:55:17 and offenders who may be of Hispanic heritage and may have come here perfectly legally. We don't make those distinctions. And so it's very difficult to say for sure whether illegal and, have raised the crime rates in the United States. Of course, one response to that is, well, it shouldn't really matter if they're here illegally. We don't want them to be free to move about to the country. And I agree with that. But whether that contributes to a crime increase, we don't know.

Starting point is 00:55:56 Now, one of the things that I'm proposing for the criminal justice system, and this has application to the immigration system as well, is to use electronic monitoring much more than we've been doing. I think it would have an application to people who are released from prison and are put on parole. They have a very high recidivism rate. Over 80% are rearrested after they're released. And a tracking system, an electronic monitoring system, would be very useful. useful for this cohort. But also, immigrants who are released into the United States, who are asking for asylum, and who are released into the United States pending their hearing, they should also be tracked. And there was something in the Biden administration's proposal providing

Starting point is 00:56:53 for this. And I'm in favor of this. This is an expanded use of electronic monitoring as well. And we should be able to track them because otherwise they don't show for their hearings, and they just skip and get lost into the vast United States. And then, of course, we don't find them again, or we only find them again if they're arrested and have committed a crime. So I think tracking ex-prisoners, tracking migrants who are asking for asylum, most of which, by the way, are really bogus claims. They are unable to get asylum, at least not the way the law is written.

Starting point is 00:57:39 These people, it seems to me, would be perfect subjects of electronic monitoring. So I think it would be useful in the criminal justice system and it would be useful in the immigration system. Very useful, very helpful. Right. Yeah. I think that that's a, I think that's a really good point. So we don't quite know if there is a direct causal relationship between the surge of migrants and crime.

Starting point is 00:58:07 Now, I mean, we could probably deduce that like any surge of new, like a new crowd of people, anytime something a place is more densely packed, especially with people, we don't know their background. They're not familiar with the laws. It tends to be just kind of common sense that, yes, this is going to. to cause more crime, more chaos, fewer resources, but you're saying that the data doesn't necessarily prove that yet. It's early days. That's what I'm saying. It's early times.

Starting point is 00:58:41 We don't know. By the way, what you're saying is historically absolutely correct. When there are migrations into the cities of the United States and the group entering the migrant group has high crime rate backgrounds, it's. It does contribute to higher crime rates in the destination area. So you're absolutely right about that. And it also overtaxes the criminal justice and other systems in the destination location. So we've seen this throughout history, throughout American history.

Starting point is 00:59:19 We just don't know if this migrant group from South America, Latin America, Central America, falls into that category. Many of them are really just economic migrants. They're here because they think they can earn more money and get better jobs, which they undoubtedly could. And some are also here because they think they could stay long enough for their children to have better opportunities for advancement, which they could as well. Of course, that doesn't make their entry lawful and it doesn't really meet the requirements for asylum. Asylum is supposed to be granted for people who are being persecuted, politically persecuted, for instance. So that's not really applicable. But yes, you're absolutely right to say that when you have a migration of sizable proportion

Starting point is 01:00:18 and the migrant group has high crime rates or had high crime rates in its country of origin or its locale of origin, then they will raise the crime rates in the destination locale. That is historically correct. Right. And a lot of people on the progressive side will say, well, you know, citizens commit crimes too. We shouldn't, you know, highlight illegal immigrants. But of course, the deference in a crime committed by an illegal immigrant and a crime. committed by a citizen is that the crime committed by an illegal immigrant was, I mean,

Starting point is 01:00:53 theoretically, completely preventable by another law that should have prevented them from even being here in the first place. So it's just an even bigger failure of the system, which is why I think it matters even more when those crimes do actually occur. Yes, you're so right. That's absolutely correct. Obviously, it's preventable because they should never have been here in the first place if they've entered illegally. Now, by the way, there are other people. policies we should start seriously thinking about to arrest this issue. And that is, for instance, if really they're economic migrants looking for work, now that we have a situation where there's very little unemployment in the United States, it's around 4.3 percent or something like that,

Starting point is 01:01:40 there are many jobs that are open and unfilled. And here we have people who do want to come here and work. So, wow, why not match up the people who want to emigrate to the United States for work and the job openings? It seems like a no-brainer to me. It's time to really beef up our legal entries with visas that enable people to stay here for short times, a few years, perhaps, and work in the United States, work in fields where we need the labor. We can use them. By the way, the Europeans are doing this. In the Wall Street Journal just today, there was an article to that effect. Why can't we do it too? If we find we need people to work in certain fields, why not give people who want to be in the United States and have these skills or don't have skills, as the case may be,

Starting point is 01:02:44 why not give them an opportunity to get these jobs and hold these jobs? They won't be taking jobs away from Native American citizens because they're not taking those jobs. That's why they're a job openings. So this is another missed opportunity as far as I'm concerned. Of course, we both know the reason for all of these really errors in policy, and that is because the country's polarized, the politicians are polarized, and they can't seem to reach any compromises. And in the immigration field, this has been going on for years, and it's a disaster.

Starting point is 01:03:25 Yeah. And there's a big debate on the right about even legal immigration, how much legal immigration should we actually support. Republicans don't even necessarily agree on that. So I just want to acknowledge the debate. We won't even get into all of that. but I do think that everyone can agree that Florida, for example, they just have decided to require all employers to use E-Verify, which checks the immigration status of all the people that they're hiring. And that, in addition to what you're talking about, electronic monitoring for people who are in the country awaiting all of that, I think that that could be really good. There are things to be put in place in states and on the national level. That could actually help. but you're right, there's very little motivation. I think especially on the Democrat side,

Starting point is 01:04:11 I actually saw that 71% I believe of illegal migrants end up in Republican areas, which is just interesting. I don't know if there's anything behind that. It's just an interesting thing to note. So it's chaos. And you know what? It does kind of relate to the whole like New York City subway thing. All of these feeling like you are not being taken care of.

Starting point is 01:04:33 Feeling like no one really cares, the people in charge who are supposed to care, about the general welfare and security and stability of the country. They don't seem to care and they seem to be inducing chaos. It leads to a sense of distrust and restlessness and angst in the public that can only lead, I think, to further violence, further polarization when you don't feel like the government, your own government has your back just for the general safety of the border or crime. I mean, bare minimum government responsibilities. then you're looking at a very unstable future, in my opinion.

Starting point is 01:05:12 Yeah. Yeah, I think it is alienating to use a word that political scientists often use. It's very alienating when people have a sense, right or wrong, but in this case, I think it's right that the governments are just not doing their job. I mean, if they can't control people entering into the country illegally, you have to wonder, right? If they can't punish criminals on the streets, it doesn't give you a lot of confidence in the local system. I think this explains why a lot of people are really alienated from the system, probably don't vote at all, think that the system is really run by a cabal, by some people who are engaged in a conspiracy.

Starting point is 01:06:12 You get these kinds of theories, which are kind of wacky, in my opinion, because people are so alienated, because people are so convinced that the government is just ineffective, and I don't mean just the federal government. So, yeah, I think it really is dispiriting. It's a kind of malaise situation to use a word that some previous president got in trouble for using it. That was Jimmy Carter, by the way. I'm even sure to use that word. Anyway, it is a dispiriting and disheartening situation. And, you know, the answers are we do need to compromise.

Starting point is 01:06:58 And I think there probably is a pretty substantial. substantial group, I hope so, of Democrats and Republicans, of ideologically conservative and ideologically left Americans who would like to see the government compromise and come up with proper policies on, well, crime is a different story because that's really locally run. That's state and municipally run. But certainly the border issue, they ought to be able to reach a compromise. But look, they're going to push this debt ceiling issue right to the last days, probably. They are having a hard time compromising, even on that, even on meeting the debts of the United States.

Starting point is 01:07:44 I mean, that's really scary, isn't it? Yeah. But here they are, working up to the very last minute. And, of course, they won't go over the cliff because I think each side, the Republicans and the Democrats are afraid of being blamed for it. they do. Yeah. So I think they'll come up with something, but it's sort of disheartening to see them having, you know, an inability to agree even on that, even on those fundamental. Fundamental things. Good point. You're right. Good point. Oh, yeah. Go ahead. No, no. I was just going to say, good point. I think you put your finger on it. People, it really is disheartening and, and as I said,

Starting point is 01:08:28 alienating when when people expect these basics to to be to be satisfied and they're not yeah you know I think when it comes to maybe a local level but national level too because things seem just so chaotic it seems like everyone kind of feels that especially in these cities but and then you know the right and the left feel that for different reasons I think the right is especially they feel the moral chaos that we see going on the left might feel it for, you know, whatever reason. But I think in the end, the anti-chaos, whoever is perceived as the anti-caous candidate, especially when it comes to the president in the next year, is going to be the one who wins last time.

Starting point is 01:09:13 Trump was not seen as the anti-caust president, even though I think that Biden's policies are very chaotic. But he presented himself as a vessel of normalcy, as a vessel of unity, and just calming the waters after the turbulent Trump years. And I think in the end, that's what people are vying for. Give us some normalcy. Calm the waters. I think even Democrats would say, yeah, lock these people up in jail. I'm tired of not being able to walk in downtown San Francisco. So we'll see. But thank you so much, Mr. Lasser, for taking the time to come on. I do encourage everyone to get your most recent book, you've written several. But the myth of overpunishment, a defense of the American justice system and a proposal to reduce incarceration while protecting the public. Very, very fascinating.

Starting point is 01:10:01 Thank you for taking the time to come on. Well, it was a pleasure. It was really an interesting conversation. I enjoyed it. Thank you. Yes, sir. Thank you. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular.

Starting point is 01:10:41 This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 807 | 'Loving the Foreigner' Means Opposing Illegal Immigration | Guest: Barry Latzer

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.