Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 821 | Why Antidepressants Don’t Fix Depression | Guest: Dr. Roger McFillin

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed.

Starting point is 00:00:33 You can watch this D-Day Show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. There has been a sharp increase in the prescription of drugs for depression and anxiety in recent years, as well as mood-altering medication for children. What's really going on here? And what are the consequences of this alarming trend? Today's guest, clinical psychologist, Dr. Roger McPhillan, has the fascinating answer. This is part one of our two-part conversation on the truth about mental health and the powerful

Starting point is 00:01:04 industry behind it. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use code Allie at checkout. That's good ranchers.com. Code Allie. Dr. McFellan, thanks so much for joining us. For those who may not know, can you just tell us who you are and what you do?

Starting point is 00:01:29 Yes. First of all, thank you for having me. Congratulations, by the way. Thank you. My name is Dr. Roger McPhillan. I am a clinical psychologist. I'm also the co-host of the podcast. radically genuine. I run a large group practice in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, which is about an hour

Starting point is 00:01:44 north of Philly. And I think a lot of what's brought me on to various podcasts and here today is what I'm being vocal about on social media and through the podcast, which is, to be honest with you, it's really just being critical of my field in general, from the overprescription of psychiatric drugs, what typical therapy has become, the ideology that. that's influencing it. In fact, I make pretty controversial statements that I believe that entering into the system, the mental health system, does create harm and could create harm. And I've tried to provide information, science-based information, to help people make informed decisions as well as just try to communicate to parents who have children and adolescents who are

Starting point is 00:02:30 struggling about what might be the safest, most effective course. So you became a psychologist, but you are critical kind of of psychology, the industry. How did that happen? Did you go into it critical and wanting to change things? Or did you kind of learn, like look around at some point and say, oh, this is not what I thought it was? Yeah. Interesting story. I don't think when I was in undergrad, my intention was not to be a clinical psychologist.

Starting point is 00:02:58 I thought I was going to be a teacher and a football coach. And I accepted a job right after undergrad as I was determining my. next steps at a children's psychiatric hospital. And to be honest, what I observed in that setting, and this is back in 1999, 2000 was absolutely appalling. I worked on a unit ages five to 10, so these are relatively very young kids who came from very abusive and traumatic backgrounds. So these children would react as you would expect anybody would who was under a trauma response, abuse in homes, very difficult upbringings and violence in their homes. And I just observed how the mental health system worked with these kids.

Starting point is 00:03:40 There was a psychiatrist on the unit who would basically ask basic questions. What is your name? Why are you here? And then write up a pretty thorough psychiatric evaluation and prescribe one or often multiple psychiatric drugs. And I saw these kids deteriorate. I really did. It was my first observation of what mental health care was. In a lot of ways, it was the sedation.

Starting point is 00:04:06 of behavior. And they viewed at that time, and I think still today, that an effective mental health treatment is when somebody numbs their own emotional states or they become sedative. And we'd see kids who were sleeping 16 hours a day. The life was taken out of them. After they were put on these prescriptions, they started sleeping. They were placed on these drugs. And so if you're going into a psychiatric hospital, obviously you are acting. out aggressively, generally, or even at that age, kind of talking about suicide. And so they would view the treatment as if they became less aggressive. So it was often creating, you know, lethargy and, you know, just sedation. And so that was upsetting and disturbing for me, because it was in

Starting point is 00:04:57 contrast with everything that I was taught growing up or everything that I believed about what it takes to be able to overcome challenges for if you're going through an adverse period in your life. And I grew up in a Catholic family and I was always taught that our life has purpose and meaning and the struggles that exist in our lives are something that we can expect. But like anything, they're temporary. And so observing how children were taken care of in that environment did inspire me to take steps with my education and do a lot of training. Before I became a clinical psychologist, I also worked with youth in the juvenile justice system

Starting point is 00:05:39 who were also prescribed multiple psychiatric drugs as a way of managing behavior. And I just witnessed the cultural shift. I'm 46 years old, so I saw the cultural shift from the 80s into the 90s that really started when Prozac was brought to market. And the United States is one of only two countries where direct. to consumer marketing exists from pharmaceutical companies. So in a lot of ways we are mass conditioned to believe that our emotional states are something that may be outside of our control, that they are genetic or related to some imbalance of specific brain chemicals. In fact, that was

Starting point is 00:06:19 advertised to us, mass advertising throughout the 90s into the 2000s. So when I had this exposure to the mental health system at that time early on, it was really at the height of all this. Yeah. The truth of the matter is, and many of your viewers probably are not aware that there's never such a thing as a chemical imbalance, that it was a theory that was initially identified by scientists back in the 50s or 60s to try to understand why some people might be depressed in comparison to others. And the drug companies, they really took off with this idea that like depression, for example,

Starting point is 00:06:57 is related to deficient. deficiencies in serotonin. And if you can take this pill, you can correct these deficiencies in serotonin and almost like a happy pill. And it was, it really was marketed in that way. And it shifted an entire culture of how we think about our own mental health. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

Starting point is 00:07:41 We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this Steve Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. There's so much in there that I want to ask about before we get to what I think is going to be one of the most interesting parts of this conversation, the whole chemical imbalance debate. You mentioned Prozac. When Prozac came to the market, you saw this culture shift kind of in 80s, 90s, maybe even early 2000s. Prozac is anti-depressant medication?

Starting point is 00:08:27 It's an SSRI. I don't like to use the word antidepressant because I think it's false marketing. Okay. But it is an antirestance. Selective serotonin reuptake in hipters. Re-uptake inhibitor. Okay, got it. And what was it about Prozac that kind of shifted things in your mind? Well, I think the pharmaceutical companies are incredibly powerful, as we all know. And on my podcast, I've said, I think they are the most lucrative criminal organization that exists globally. And I don't think that's an outrageous statement. All you have to do is look at the fines, the lawsuits. And the marketing is very distorted, right? It began to be pushed through major television networks. Even if you watch a movie, They started talking about taking your meds or I'm in balance. These little words are just like they're placed in front of us and we become conditioned. And of course there's the magazine covers where mental health is a brain disorder.

Starting point is 00:09:31 And it was a ton of money that was dumped into this through the NIMH, the National Institute of Mental Health throughout the 90s, billions in trying to identify some brain related source of our own distress. And, you know, as we all know, what we experience and what we feel is very complicated, right? There is biological, social, relational, spiritual complexities to what we feel and to what we experience. And often our emotions are directly related to what's happening in our environment or internally in our own minds. And so they're definitely kind of biologically ingrained. I talk to, I talk about emotions as being gifts. because if we learn to utilize our emotions, that they're for a reason, they're there for us to either indicate potential threat or danger or there's something amiss in our life, solve problems that exist. These emotions are powerful indicators and the education around that matters. Like when you raise your children, when they experience some emotional reaction or response to something, my guess is you're not going to believe that it's something outside of their control and they have a medical illness.

Starting point is 00:10:43 that would require a pharmaceutical. Instead, you're probably going to teach them some emotional literacy, that your emotions make sense based on what you're thinking about or what's happening. And you're going to help them be able to manage their emotions in order to be able to be productive and effective in life, whether that's in relationships or academically or in sports or whatever they're doing. We need to be able to manage our emotions. If I'm going to come on to this podcast and feel anxious, I'm not going to judge that emotion

Starting point is 00:11:13 of anxiety as something that is wrong or that is something that I shouldn't feel. It makes sense given the environment that I'm in. It's an important conversation. It's a new audience for me. So I should feel a bit of anxiety. But throughout the 90s into the 2000s, we started talking about just normal human reactions as if they're symptoms of a medical illness.

Starting point is 00:11:37 It's changed a lot in American culture. Yeah. And something that you said that I, thought was interesting that I don't think many Americans consider because we're so used to this, is that it's only here that you said that pharmaceutical companies sell directly to the consumer. So that's why we see like a commercial for Prozac or whatever it is. And it says, ask your doctor. So we're supposed to go to our doctor and say, oh, I think I need Prozac because the 60 second commercial,

Starting point is 00:12:07 it listed my symptoms and said it can make me feel better. and so I should be prescribed this. Is that kind of, is that what you're talking about, that that's unique here in America and not in other places? United States and New Zealand, I think, are the only two countries. So the idea that an individual can go to their doctor in order to get a pharmaceutical without having the background knowledge or the understanding of what that drug actually does, is that we're all kind of victims to what the marketing is.

Starting point is 00:12:36 Yeah. What is really concerning to me, Allie, is that currently 80% of all psychiatric drugs are prescribed in primary care settings. So I just got done reading the American Academy of Pediatrics guidelines, because I was trying to make sense of how are we seeing this dramatic increase in mind and mood altering psychiatric drugs for children and adolescents? And in popular media and culture, they speak about it as if the COVID-19 lockdowns and the isolation or what fueled a mental health crisis. And I don't deny that. And I think that was a primary factor. But we were seeing the statistics leading up to this of how many kids were going

Starting point is 00:13:20 to their doctors and saying, I just don't feel well or I feel sad. Now, teens don't even use the word sad anymore. It's depressed. It's depressed. And that is from marketing, right? Because what you feel is no longer normal. And what you feel is a potential medical illness. And there's also, you know, a label now that you can assign to yourself. And that label has meaning. In teenage life, it also can, it can also provide you a certain disability status and a connection with others. So imagine being a vulnerable teenager who's struggling emotionally. And you feel like you're just on the outside, that you're struggling relational. Relationally, it's another group that you can, adopt to like oh I'm I'm depressed or I'm mentally ill the word is really really being thrown

Starting point is 00:14:13 around in fact I think I was most shocked a couple years ago when a young girl said called herself a lexahoe lexahoe for the teenage girls who take the antidepressant lexopro and so it is so pervasive and there's the assumption that these drugs must be safe and effective or why would our doctors be prescribing them? They wouldn't even be available. The FDA wouldn't even approve them if they weren't safe and effective. And to be honest, there was a time where I thought that had to be true. I live in the United States of America. Of course, our government protects us until I took the time to really do the research, because I had to resolve the conflict between what I'm being told and what I'm seeing in front of me. And what I was seeing in front of me was a lot of young people,

Starting point is 00:15:02 mostly under the age of 25, just doing poorly with the diagnosis of being mentally ill, of the drugs that they were taking. And what that leads to is going right back to your doctor, who's going to either up the dose or prescribe you another one. And now I think we're looking at close to one in five Americans or taking some form of a psychiatric drugs. And I think the outcomes are absolutely horrific in what it's doing to the physical and mental health, but also it's that profound shift in how you think about your experience. So as a psychologist, my passion is around helping people create a life of value in one that's worth living. And I'm not going to sell an idea to them that you're going to go through life without pain or you're going to go through

Starting point is 00:15:52 life without some sort of struggle or hardship. Or that you're entitled to that kind of life. Or, yeah, that's sold to us. And I did read your book, by the way, on the flight in here. And so a lot of those messages really resonated with me because it's the difference between what is sold to us in popular culture and its influence. I talk about it in terms of almost like a brainwashing, that young people believe that they should feel good all the time. And if they don't feel good that then there's something wrong with them. And my message is if you don't feel good, you're normal. Yeah. And life is really hard. And even if you have the most blessed life, life is going to be challenging. I think that is the thing that kind of trips people up. People who

Starting point is 00:16:50 do have, I don't know if I'm using the correct psychological terms, but they do have depressive episodes. Or maybe there's someone who they look at all the factors in their life. They're eating healthy. They're plugged into a church. So they have community. They have a great family. They have an okay job. And still they find themselves almost being like pulled down into the state of like sadness or depression or they always feel a simmering sadness or anxiety underneath them. I think that we are told that, okay, that kind of person does have though some kind of chemical imbalance. We can't look at any of the factors in their life. So it must be that they need this SSRI or something like that. So with someone who,

Starting point is 00:17:31 has kind of what we might call inexplicable depression or depressive episodes. Like, is there ever to you a need or justification for those SSRIs? Or what would you tell that person? It's a good question. First, I don't think that when somebody experienced depression and it's inexplicable. They might not have awareness. On the outside, maybe there's things in their life that look like everything is an order. But it is the internal world is important as well. Yeah. Right? The, the manner in which we view ourselves and our relationship to our family, our purpose, our job, our community, what we think, how we feel. But it's also much more complicated that. It's also like what we put into our bodies and how much we move. And there's so many other

Starting point is 00:18:18 complex factors because the United States society is metabolically sick in so many different ways. And that's another conversation. We can add that. But your question is a good one. Is there anybody who could benefit from, let's say, an antidepressant. And so I just want to be science based on this. So when I look at the data and the research study, this research studies over 40 years, what becomes really clear to me is this, is it's very difficult to distinguish the drug group

Starting point is 00:18:52 from a placebo group in a lot of these trials. So what that means is a lot of people get better from a placebo, which is an inert substance. They think they're getting the drug. And that's important because there's a mind-body connection and experience that I don't know if we've really tapped into and how powerful that is. However, I do want to say this is that there are a small people, a small group of people who will say they've benefited from antidepressants that are related. to something that I think happens from taking the drug with a specific group of people. Now, we're all different.

Starting point is 00:19:39 We're biologically different. And everyone should know that one person taking the drug will have a different effect from another person taking the drug. But in the academics and researchers that I trust, the SSRI can create emotional numbing. emotional numbing for someone who may be in quite intense pain could be viewed as a relief temporarily. My concern with the drugs are the risks of taking the drugs are minimized. So there is a group of harmed patients globally who are in quite a movement right now to try to bring this information to the attention of the global public. One of them is a group who talks about post-SSRI sexual dysfunction.

Starting point is 00:20:27 So that emotional numbing can also numb the genitals, even permanently. And I would say as a psychologist that the ultimate recovery from anyone who's really struggling, if they're depressed, is going to go way beyond emotional numbing. Emotional numbing can happen when you drink alcohol. Emotional numbing can, from smoking marijuana. you can turn to many drugs to emotionally numb out. In my opinion, that's not antidepressant. That is a way that you're responding to how you're feeling. The drug companies set up these trials that way,

Starting point is 00:21:03 that they're short term, six to eight weeks, yet people are taking antidepressants for decades. We don't have any data on their safety, on their efficacy long term. It's quite a risk. But to view emotional health as a decrease of emotions, I think is problematic. So if you can create a symptom checklist of various feelings around depression, and depression's a concept too. It's not a, it's not like you go to your doctor

Starting point is 00:21:29 and get a medical test or a brain scan and they say, well, Ali, we see that you are suffering from major depressive disorder. It is a subjective experience. And so we are relying upon a person's ability to communicate what they're going through, which can also be challenging too, because you know, when you meet somebody, especially when you do the work that I do, you realize that you don't really know somebody until, you know, weeks, months down the line because a relationship has to be built. So you go into a doctor and in 15 minutes you start describing your experience. It could be easily misunderstood and misrepresented. It can be taken out of context and you can be assigned a label. And now you're seeing your life through that lens. And so taking a pill and in measuring in a very

Starting point is 00:22:13 short amount of time and viewing those symptoms decreasing as emotional health or well-being, I think is problematic. The problem with a lot of these trials is blind was broken. So we have to do randomized clinical control trials as a way to determine whether the drug has any sort of effect over a placebo group. But almost everyone who took the SSRI, including the doctors, knew that they were on an SSRI. It's a mood and mind-altering substance. So they change the way they feel.

Starting point is 00:22:41 So when someone takes Prozac, for example, you know you're taking Prozac. A lot of people say I feel different. Some people feel disconnected. Some people feel completely numbed out. In my opinion, that is not the path towards overcoming what you're going through. But for people who are looking for kind of a quick fix or some relief from what they're going through, I can understand that that could be interpreted at least in the short term as it's helping them. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:23:08 I think the majority of that's a placebo response. We call it an active placebo response because you know that you're taking the substance. Even then, there's not that much of a difference between the drug group and the placebo group. So for those young people, probably mostly, I'm guessing young men that you saw, like, in the 90s in the hospital, who were basically just numbed. What you were describing actually reminds me a lot of what they thought or actually kind of what lobotomies did accomplish and what they thought lobotomies could accomplish, just kind of like taking. out part of your brain, injuring part of your brain, so that you're no longer really functioning at all. And so it kind of seems like in a way that's what was happening or what is happening to a lot of these young, maybe aggressive, maybe they would say, I don't know if they would say

Starting point is 00:24:08 psychotic young people, is that, okay, taking away their brain function entirely is preferable to the harmful behavior that they are doing right now. So you said, it could be a quote unquote, maybe quick fix if your goal is just kind of short term numbing. So like in those kind of situations where it seems like harm is imminent either to themselves or other people, I mean, how do you navigate that without those quick fixes? Yeah, this is a great question. Because when I say quick fix, it is short term. Yeah. Because our body is constantly seeking homeostasis. So it adapts. So that idea of like staying lethargic is only going to be. going to be for a period of time until you require more and more drugs or you add on another drug

Starting point is 00:24:56 or you add on another drug. And now you're really experimenting with a developing brain. And it's interesting because when you look at, and this is clear when you look at the data, the FDA has also provided this warning for people under 25, just one SSRI can more than double the risk of a suicide event. When you go to the drug websites, they very clearly state that this drug can induce violence, self-harm, or suicidality. So we have this notion that if we take this drug, it can numb some people out, and that could decrease the likelihood that they act out aggressively, and that could be some benefit to us. But the truth of the matter is everyone responds differently. I had a gentleman on my podcast, 40 years old, and this is where these drugs are prescribed outside the bounds of what

Starting point is 00:25:50 they've ever really been studied to do. He was going through a very difficult time, a loss of a job, work-related stress. He had a young family. No history of any mental health issues. So he goes to his primary care physician. It says, Doc, I'm having trouble sleeping. And so they give him a, I believe it was, it was either Zoloft or Paxil. They give him a subscription for, hey, that this is going to help you with your own anxiety. And what ended up happening is he began to develop psychotic beliefs that his own son was going to harm a bunch of people and he needed to protect society and kill his young son.

Starting point is 00:26:34 Wow. And he did. And it turns out he had, he's one of about 10% of the population approximately who can, metabolize these drugs due to a genetic variant of a metabolizing gene. So he was able to, through a lot of medical examination and testimony, he was able to, his sentence was actually decreased and now he's a promoter and he talks about his story and has a website called Know Your Drugs. So, I mean, his purpose and his mission right now is to communicate to the general public that these drugs do induce violence

Starting point is 00:27:20 and have negative adverse reactions and a percentage of people. And when you look into the science around this, it looks like we could probably identify those who could have that specific genetic variant of a metabolizing gene through gene testing. But we don't do that. We don't do that in the United States. And really, the doctors who are out there who prescribing these drugs are doing two things. They're very much overvaluing any type of effect that these drugs are going to have on mental health and they're minimizing harm. And why are they minimizing harm? Because so much of the information that is provided is directly from the pharmaceutical companies. And the pharmaceutical salespeople are brilliant.

Starting point is 00:28:06 The marketing programs and they're, you know, they're in our doctor's offices and the allopathic medical establishment within the United States, which is drugs as health care. It's a system that kind of maintains that this simplified way of viewing our mental health and this story or this fantasy that we have drugs that can cure people. To put it in kind of my terms for anyone who is in like the communications world, if you want to know about a person, really their history and what they're about, you don't read the press release that was written by their publicist. Because that can tell you some of the great parts about them. It might even lie a little bit or twist the truth or kind of try to exaggerate or amplify the good things they've done, but you won't really

Starting point is 00:29:04 learn about the person. You won't really know anything about the person. You'll just know about their accomplishments. That's how silly it is. Like if you're writing a biography about someone or you're, I don't know, trying to place someone in a job, you're not going to just read their press release. But we are prescribing, you're saying these medications, basically just reading the marketing in sales materials for them without really looking at the potential side effects. So true. And I think it goes even a little bit deeper because as I mentioned, I just published a podcast episode today, the radically genuine podcast where I was reviewing the American Academy of Pediatric Guidelines that are promoting drugs as frontline health care for young people who are

Starting point is 00:29:46 experiencing mood-related problems. And I was appalled by the entire publication because it was cherry-picking science. I've spent the last five, six, seven years going through all this various research. And when we look at science, we have to look at the totality of all the research. And they really cherry-picked only a few studies to suggest that these drugs are safe and effective and they help more people than they harm. And when you're talking about pediatricians or primary care physicians, this is not their area of specialty. They are not trained to assess, understand, and diagnose and treat mental health conditions. In fact, the average amount of time for a primary care appointment in the United States is no more than eight minutes.

Starting point is 00:30:30 We have a health care system that's kind of fast food mentality. It's like on an assembly line. So they're pushing everybody, people, everyone through. And they're handing out these checklists. One thing that is really, really important. And this is new. This is new in my area. But in our primary care centers and pediatric centers, they're giving depression screening measures.

Starting point is 00:30:50 These depression screening measures are really poor assessors of what actually clinical depression would look like. It's like this really quick, 10 questions that number of the questions can be applied to anyone at any given time. Like, I guarantee you if you're a young mother and you're a bit sleep deprived and you're dealing the stress of multiple kids in a career, that a number of the questions on there would just be considered normal, right? like sleep or the challenges or anxiety or things that they're just normal they're normal part of living and that's what's happening we're trying to medicalize normal and if we restrict the idea of what normal is then they can increase their customer base and what's really nefarious is I think that's happening with young people and young people cannot consent the adults in their lives and the parents

Starting point is 00:31:42 consent for them and so parents they've been trained in this in this united states medical culture right, the medical authority, we trust them, that they have our best interest in mind. And I think if anything that we've learned from COVID is that there needs to be an awakening for all of us to understand that what's happening in our healthcare centers is not always the best available evidence, that a lot of it is bias, it's ideology, it's industry driven. And I don't want to be an investigative reporter, but I had to see who is funding the American Academy of Pediatrics, Who do you think is funding the American Academy of Pediatrics? The pharmaceutical companies.

Starting point is 00:32:24 Pharmaceutical, biotech, big food. I mean, because that's another thing. You know, you processed horrible food, 60% obesity rate in the United States. So people feel horrible. But it's about solving the problem. If you're going to be in health care or mental health care, you cannot take away our physical and mental health. They all exist together. And so if you feel sick or you're on your screens all the time, you're isolated, you're going to feel bad.

Starting point is 00:32:50 Is the problem a chemical imbalance that no one can test for and no one can measure and we don't have any science to support it? Or are the real problems, the hard work that you're actually going to have to do in order to change? All right. That was part one. Part two will be out tomorrow. I will ask him, what do people mean when they say that there is a chemical imbalance? And who is pushing this idea? What's going into the so-called research behind prescribing these, medications that are actually causing a lot of harm. Who is funding this research? He is going to be uncovering a lot of just mind-blowing corruption on tomorrow's episode and part two of our conversation.

Starting point is 00:33:39 So make sure you stay tuned for that. And also, he's going to deliver some really good solutions to these problems for us as well. So you will feel empowered and educated by the end of the episode. All right. We will see you guys back here tomorrow. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political.

Starting point is 00:34:07 They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 821 | Why Antidepressants Don’t Fix Depression | Guest: Dr. Roger McFillin

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