Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 824 | 'Shiny, Happy People': The Real Problems with Duggar Theology

Episode Date: June 19, 2023

Today we're talking all about the Amazon Prime documentary "Shiny, Happy People," which focuses on the Duggar family and the greater theology behind their beliefs (Bill Gothard's Institute in Basic Life Principles). The IBLP and Gothard have been accused of legalism, double standards, and abuse within their doctrine. We start off with some issues the documentary presents as big problems within Duggar/IBLP theology, which include wives submitting to husbands, gender roles, and modesty, among others. We also share the problems we see with their theology, but discuss how many things like submission and gender roles themselves are actually biblical – the IBLP has just misconstrued, misinterpreted, and misapplied these Biblical commands to create a legalistic, graceless, gospel-less framework that oppresses and represses its adherents rather than setting them free. We share some of the shocking revelations from the documentary series and explain the frustrating angle the filmmakers took in conflating IBLP and fundamentalism with true gospel principles and beliefs. --- Timecodes: (01:19) Intro / Father's Day (13:20) Breakdown of IBLP beliefs (16:50) Duggar doc intro (21:20) Problems with Duggar/IBLP theology from documentary perspective (23:37) Problems with Duggar/IBLP theology from biblical perspective (45:11) Josh Duggar's sentence & Du (48:46) Credibility & criticisms of the doc (57:29) "World domination" & children as arrows (01:02:13) Differentiation of fundamentalism & true Christianity (01:06:21) Interesting parts from the documentary (01:12:11) C.S. Lewis quote --- Today's Sponsors: Birch Gold — protect your future with gold. Text 'ALLIE' to 989898 for a free, zero obligation info kit on diversifying and protecting your savings with gold. Patriot Mobile — go to PatriotMobile.com/ALLIE or call 878-PATRIOT and use promo code 'ALLIE' to get free activation! Constitution Wealth — align your values with your investments through your financial management. Go to ConstitutionWealth.com/ALLIE and schedule a FREE consultation! Good Ranchers — get $30 OFF your box today at GoodRanchers.com – make sure to use code 'ALLIE' when you subscribe. You'll also lock in your price for two full years with a subscription to Good Ranchers! --- Relevant Episodes: Ep 745 | Life as a Duggar & Letting Go of Legalism | Guest: Jinger Duggar Vuolo https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-745-life-as-a-duggar-letting-go-of-legalism/id1359249098?i=1000596623691 Ep 777 | On Duggar Theology, Josh’s Arrest, & Media Lies | Guests: Jinger Duggar Vuolo & Jeremy Vuolo https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-777-on-duggar-theology-joshs-arrest-media-lies-guests/id1359249098?i=1000606178083 --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed.

You can watch this D-Day Show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Shiny happy people is a newly released documentary about the Duggers and about their theology. I have a lot of thoughts and so does producer Bree about this documentary. Some of the things that we agree with, some of the things that we thought were absurd, but we'll focus a lot of our time on the biblical problem. with what is presented as Dugger theology and some of the consequences that it has. Before we get into that episode, I've got two things to tell you.

Number one, we've got these really cute shirts that are available online. There are June shirts, our Noahic Covenant shirts, and also we've got our rainbow belongs to God shirts that are available on Alleymerch.com, check that out. Also, if you love this podcast, if you appreciate this podcast, Will you please leave a five-star review, especially on Apple Podcasts? You can also leave one on Spotify. Subscribe on YouTube if you haven't already. But if you can leave that five-star review on Apple Podcasts, that would mean so much to us.

It really does help the show. All right. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use code Allie. Check out. That's Good Ranchers.com. Code Allie.

Hey, guys. Welcome to Relatable. Happy Monday. Hope everyone had a wonderful weekend, a wonderful Father's Day weekend specifically. And I just wanted to take a moment to say, related bros, we really appreciate you. I know we talk a lot about the related gals, related bells, still have not decided what we are going to call the women who watch and listen to relatable. Related bros just rolls off the tongue. It's so easy to say.

I just wanted to say that we appreciate you, especially those of you who are dads. I know we talk about this show being a female-centric show, which it's. is simply because I'm a female host and we talk about a lot of things that affect motherhood and women specifically. But I know that there are some very supportive and very consistent related bros out there who help keep the show alive. And you give me feedback and encouragement. And I appreciate that so much. And a special shout out to the related bros who are dads. You are valued. You are needed. I hope that you were shown that appreciation. Over the weekend, there is an underappreciation and has been, there has been an underappreciation

for dads for a very, very long time in the United States. I mean, going back decades, just seeing the fumbling, dumb, weak, compliant, passive dad always hoisted up in every sitcom. And then, of course, the destructive effects of something like the family diversity theory, which Professor Brad Wilcox, it's explained on our show. before, this idea that kids don't really need a mom and a dad. They just need some kind of love coming from some kind of adults. And then kids will turn out fine. The outcomes will all kind of be comparable if they're raised by two moms or two dads or a polycule or one mom or one dad.

The fact of the matter is that's not true. Statistics don't show that at all is that kids are, they develop the best. They have the most healthy upbringing. generally statistically when they are raised by their own mother and father. That's not to denigrate, certainly adoption. That's not to say that single moms or single dads don't do a great job. That's not to say the different kinds of parents don't absolutely love their kids or that kids can never turn out to be awesome, responsible, productive citizens and Christians if they were not raised by their own mother and father.

But the statistics are so overwhelmingly consistent and clear that kids, are, they thrive the most when they're raised by a present, a present married mother and father. And so we should be doing everything that we can to encourage that, to promote that. And it's especially true when it comes to present dads. There is a consequence to fatherlessness that simply doesn't show up in the same way if you're looking at motherlessness. motherlessness is still, by the way, statistically rare. Of course, now with gay couples using surrogates and egg bind and things like that, it's more prevalent than it used to be, but it's a historical anomaly.

Mom tend to stick around more than dads do. And so fatherlessness, we have a lot of data on fatherlessness, and we see that it leads to greater chances of teen delinquency, teen pregnancy, depression, anxiety, failing your classes, not going to school, not graduating. staying stuck in poverty, all kinds of social ills, all kinds of personal failures and personal struggles come from not having present dads at home, not having present dads in communities. And so the fact that our government leaders not only don't focus on that, but pretend like that's not one of the most, if not the most pervasive problems in this.

United States. It's a travesty. And I also think it's intentional. I think it's intentional. I think that a present dad is one of the greatest barriers between families, between individuals and complete government control. And so the fewer dads that you have to depend on for protection and provision and for guidance, the easier it is for the government to come in and be your daddy. And there's also a lot of interesting data on how dads influence their families to go to church. If a mom goes to church, I think it's like, I don't know, a 60% chance or something like that, that the rest of the family will go to church, that children will go to church. But if dad is the one leading the way going to church, this is by focus on the family, there's like a 93% chance that everyone is going to go to church with him every Sunday. there's something different about men.

There's something different about dads. There's something different about male leadership. You guys know how unique and wonderful. I think women are and I believe moms are. God has gifted us in very special ways, but there's something unique about dads that moms don't and simply cannot bring to the table. It's so interesting how many people on the right or the left

will accept the idea that or the truth that men can't become women. They'll say, yeah, you know, we believe in biological sex. Of course, a man can't become a woman. A woman can't become a man. Increasingly, we're seeing people accept the reality of the gender binary since that's been challenged so fiercely over the past years. But some of those same people, some of those same people will accept the equally absurd notion that men and women are interchangeable when it comes to marriage and parenting.

Because they're willing to be called transphobic, but they don't want to be. be called homophobic. They're like, oh, no, let's just go back to tradition when we just had a regular rainbow flag and not the rainbow flag with the added colors. They think you can be LGBT without the T or whatever the saying is, but the fact is it's equally absurd. And it's equally destructive to say that having two dads or having two moms is the same thing as having a mom and a dad. It's just not true. Men and women are not interchangeable. A man can't become a woman, a woman can't become a man because men and women are different. Not just biologically, but we bring different things to the table. We bring different things to parenting. We bring

different things to our jobs. We bring different things to our families, to communities. They're not replaceable. They're not interchangeable. Kids need a mom and a dad. Every policy, every effort, every bit of energy that we have should be put toward upholding and securing the traditional natural family, the wedding of a mom and a dad and the creation of children, because that's best for children. And therefore, that's best for our future. Therefore, that is best for society. It's almost like God knew what he was doing. And the first chapter of Genesis, when he made us male and female, when he created the first marriage, when he created the first family, it's almost like he knew what would be best for humanity. He knew what would be best for children. He knew what would be best for

nations for societies. And so he created this wonderful institution of marriage and family, this life-giving institution of marriage between a man and a woman to keep and make and protect their children. So science is always trying to catch up to God. And I actually do see some positive indications towards the populist recognizing that. So praise God. Let's continue to push for what is good and right and true and that. And thank you again. Again, dads, thank you again, related bros, who are dads just for showing up, for being present, for working hard, for doing so much unseen and unsung work that holds it all together. I appreciate my own husband, whom I am, I'm so thankful that he is an excellent and loving

and present dad. I'm so thankful for my own dad who continues today to help me grow into the woman that God has called me to be in so many different ways through mentorship, through love. love through support. I mean, he really is one of my biggest fans. And he has helped me navigate the crazy waters of life so well. And it's hard for me to even articulate how how vital he is and how vital he has been in the formation of me as a person spiritually, mentally, emotionally. I mean, gosh, dads are so incredibly crucial to the healthy formation of the individual of families and community. So thank you, dads, and happy Father's Day. All right. Speaking of families and speaking of

patriarchs, maybe, we're finally going to talk about this documentary that was on Amazon Prime. Shiny happy people, which is about the Duggers and Dugger theology. We're going to get into the good, the bad, and the ugly what the mainstream criticism of the Duggers is. And then what I think is actual biblical criticism of the kinds of doctrines that were pushed by families like the Duggers. and pushed by the community that they were a part of. Producer Bree is going to be brought in because she also watched this series on Amazon Prime. And we're going to talk about it a little bit and get into some analysis of it. And what I agree about when it comes, what I agree with when it comes to the criticism,

what I don't necessarily agree with what I think is hypocritical, what I thought was just plain ridiculous in this documentary. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular.

This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this T-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Okay, shiny, happy people, a documentary about the Duggers and about IBLP. IBLP is the Institute of Biblical Life Principles. Is it biblical life principles or basic life principles? Basic life principles. All right.

And this was an institute that was started by Bill Gothard. And it was basically his interpretation of how scripture should apply to our lives in the structure and in the leadership of the family. And not just that, but really society at large. There's a strong emphasis on male leadership, on female submission, on strict discipline. And I think very strange discipline when it's. comes to ensuring your children's obedience. And what we saw throughout this documentary is that this structure was extremely legalistic in nature. He wasn't using proper biblical exegesis or even always referring to scripture when he was laying out these rules for families and rules for

life. He simply would sometimes say, well, Scripture said or the Bible says, or this is how God set it up without actually properly looking into the text, interpreting the text, and applying the text, which really created a disconnect between the structure of IBLP and scripture, but also the gospel as a whole. It created a legalistic mechanism for people to look like they are righteous and to look like they are doing good without actually understanding the gospel of grace. And, in any kind of legalistic structure that emphasizes external obedience rather than inward regeneration, you are going to set yourself up or set people up for the possibility of abuse and of manipulation of the adherence to these kinds of principles in the same way that the Pharisees were able to oppress and in some ways abuse the rest of the Jewish people. people by setting up these lofty rules that really only they could reach and then telling people you're never going to be good enough and just instilling this kind of fear-based obedience in

people. So the adherence to any kind of legalistic structure like IBLP are going to be vulnerable to this kind of fear-based manipulation and oppression. And then even abuse because they are so inundated with fear and intimidation and desire to be perfect and follow these rules that they're really willing to do anything, especially when it came to women at IBLP. They're willing to do anything to just ensure that they are in keeping with these basic life principles and in their minds being obedient to God. But let's get into some more details. details of it. So the documentary basically goes through the Duggers and how they became stars. I mean, they really were stars. I think 19 kids and counting. There were some things before that,

some things after that. I only knew about 19 kids and counting. I think that was when I was in high school. I had like a vague understanding of or like a vague awareness of the Duggers. And I wasn't like TLC. wasn't necessarily something that I watched all the time, except I did used to love what not to wear. It's a great show, great show in middle school and high school. But I didn't really watch. I didn't really watch the Duggers. I'll just be honest. Like, I thought it was weird. I thought it was weird. I thought that they must have, they must be like Mennonite or they must have some kind of like non-Christian religious beliefs because they had the long hair. They had the long skirts. That was certainly not any form of Christianity that I grew up around. I was raised. I was raised

Southern Baptist. I was raised in a conservative home, but it looked nothing like the lives of the Duggers. So I just thought it was strange. And when people would tell me, when I would ask, like, ask my parents, like, what are they? Like, what do they believe? And they would say, oh, I think they're just, I don't know. I think they're just like Baptist. I was so strange, because their life didn't look like anyone's life that I knew growing up in Dallas, Texas. But really, that's basically all I knew about them, that they had a bunch of kids. that they were living like an extremely conservative Christian lifestyle. I didn't realize until I watched this documentary how huge and influential the Duggers were

and like how much content they were making, how intrusive this stuff was into their lives. And so that part really fascinated me about how Jim Bob and Michelle Dugger, they really pursued fame and pursued the spotlight in the name of gaining influence through like some kind of godly ministry to share their beliefs to the world. I didn't realize just like what an impact they were having or how big of an audience they had. Bree, did you growing up when you were in high school, you're a little younger than me? Like, did you ever watch the Duggers? Were you aware? Yeah. You did? Like, did your family watch the TLC show? I didn't watch like every episode, but yeah, I was very aware of it. And I called them the skirt wearers, which is rude.

but that's what they are. And that was just kind of like my thought was that's a different like area of Christianity that that were just not. You were raised conservative Christian too. Yeah. It was kind of similar to you. Like it was just, it just felt kind of weird that they, I don't know, the impression I got from my parents was just like that's an area that we are not in. We're not. Yeah.

That kind of Christianity. Were you Baptist growing up? Yeah. Yeah, but you grew up in Colorado, California. Idaho. Idaho. Yeah. Well, Idaho, maybe, I don't know.

You might have seen some of these similar things. But I definitely didn't. Like, I didn't know. I mean, I went to a conservative Christian school. And it's conservative in the sense that we believe in the Bible. We believe about conservative things about like sexuality and gender and all of that. But it's also, you know, metropolitan. I didn't have that much connection to like rural.

America and certainly not these sections of Christianity. And I think some people have a misconception probably, and we'll get into this, like watching the documentary that this is conservative Christianity, went to the vast majority of us. The Dugger lifestyle was so foreign, which is why it was on TLC, by the way, because it was weird to most people. And what's funny is that I remember watching a couple episodes where Cousin Amy is in the show, who was in this documentary. And she was, I remember a scene where she's like, yeah, I wear pants.

I'm kind of not like them. I'm like risque compared to them. Yeah. She was like us, but she was kind of painted out as like, well, she's the liberal one. Yeah. She's a crazy liberal cousin. And she, you know, she probably even had a more conservative and strict life than like I did. I would say my parents were strict, but I mean, I went on dates.

I probably wore things that looking back, I'm like, I probably shouldn't have been wearing that. Whatever, like kind of a typical teenage life. I mean, I wasn't rebellious or like drinking or partying or anything like that. But even compared to Amy, I mean, the Duggers probably thought our lives would have were crazy. Yeah. Oh, totally. Yeah. So that's interesting. And that's probably one of the biggest issues.

And I don't want to get into it prematurely that I have about the documentary is trying to paint all conservative Christians as this. So these are the problems that I listed that I saw from the documentary that the documentary has with the Dugger IBLP theology. Wives submitting to husbands that's treated as, oh my gosh, that is like the bane of all evil, gender roles, modesty, quote unquote purity culture, children as arrows and a quiver, culture wars, and then of course the hypocrisy, sexual harassment and assault. So I'm so this is these are the documentaries like I would say list of things that they believed were wrong with IBLP. And I agree with a lot of the things that the documentary said.

So I'm going to get into that. But I do want to distinguish between the documentaries perspective of the problems with IBLP and the actual biblical perspective with IBLP and Dougher theology. And we've talked to Ginger. We've talked to Ginger and Jeremy on this show before. And so go back and live. listen to a couple of those episodes because I won't be able to rehash everything that Ginger said about how this caused a lot of fear in her life and the emphasis on legalism and the de-emphasis on the gospel, but definitely go back and listen to those because we have, we do kind of have like

a precursor to this conversation through that. So let me, let me list, let me go through from a biblical perspective what I think is wrong with the IBLP, what I think is wrong. What I think is wrong with Dugger theology. As I just listed, wives submitting to husbands, purity culture, culture wars, things like that. That's what the documentary tells us is wrong with, is wrong with this movement. But not all of those things that I listed, just on the surface, are unbiblical. I mean, as Christians, just as Christians who read and believe the Bible, we understand that there's a difference in gender roles. We understand that there's an importance to modesty. We understand that wives are called to submit to our husbands. But we need to

look at what the Bible actually says about these things, as I will argue, it's actually different than what Bill Gothard argued about them. So the problems with the Dugger slash IBLP theology from a biblical perspective in just some ways. There are many, many, but in just some of the ways that the documentary really highlighted and then offered like their own analysis of it, not really necessarily always a biblical analysis. So the problem with the Dugger IBLP theology from a biblical perspective is not that wives were called to submit to their husbands because the Bible does say that wives are supposed to submit to our husbands as to the Lord does Ephesians 5. It is not that they differentiated in gender roles. We read that in Titus 2. It's not that they viewed children as

arrows. We read that in Psalm 127.4. It's not that they emphasize modesty. That's 1 Timothy 2.9. It's not that they told their adherence to influence the culture or engage in politics. Every person, every person, no matter what their worldview is, no matter what their background is, brings their worldview to the voting booth or the content that they produce online or their job or their school or to their elected position. So Christians, of course, are called to do that too. I mean, just as the Israelite exiles in Jeremiah 29 were told to seek the welfare of the city that God had put. placed them in. So Christian exiles here on earth are to seek the welfare of the city in which God has placed as one of the ways, not the exclusive way or even always the primary way, but one of the ways to do that is to influence culture and to influence politics. Of course we are

to fight to uphold the family. Of course we are to fight on behalf of vulnerable children in the womb. Of course we are to fight against the maiming of people's bodies in the name of gender confusion. Christians have always done these things in one form of or another, and we will continue to do that. So these are not the problems with IBLP. It is how IBLP misconstrued, misinterpreted, misapplied biblical commands to create this legalistic, graceless, gospelist framework that oppressed its adherence rather than setting them free and insulated powerful men from accountability, thus making in particular women and children extremely vulnerable to predation and manipulation. That's the problem.

So we're going to go through some of these things, how, yes, the Bible says this, but not like that. That's really my argument against IBLP. Okay. So, yes, the Bible does say wives submit to our husbands as to the Lord. That's Ephesians 5. But it also says, husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church. 1 Corinthians 7.4 also says this. This would have been radical at the time of a highly patriarchal society in which Paul was writing.

For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise, the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. So even though, yes, wives are called to submit to their husbands as to the Lord, and the husband is supposed to love his wife as Christ loved the church. That means lay his life down for her. That means continual sacrifice for his wife. We also read in scripture that there is a mutual respect and a mutual submission between husband and wife. That is supposed to be reflective of or is supposed to be representative of the godly definition of marriage.

Yes, there is a hierarchy there. Yes, there is a structure there in marriage of submission and of respect and of love, but that does not alleviate men and husbands of their responsibility to honor the dignity and honor the Imago Day in their wife and honor their wife's body. There is a mutual submission and a mutual respect that we see there, especially when it comes to sex. And so this is an example I think of that. IBLP getting part of scripture and then misapplying it in a way that is convenient for them to be

able to oppress and repress some of the women in IBLP without upholding the responsibility that men have as well in their role in marriage. So yes, men and women, as IBLP notes, are different and have different responsibilities in church and at home. We saw that a lot in the Dugger home. That's not necessarily. bad some of the things that we saw. It's not wrong for women to focus on cooking and cleaning and for men to focus on other things. That's not bad. But the differing responsibilities and roles that women have that are assigned to us by God does not, these do not mean that women are consigned to only homemaking or that women's education is unimportant or that their role in the

world is always a hidden one. I don't think that that is biblically supported at all. Throughout scripture we see god call upon women to humbly carry out his purpose not in the same way that he calls men but he does call out women to follow or to carry out his purpose in particular ways sometimes um sometimes it is uh through child bearing so there are those more uh domestic perhaps roles but sometimes not sometimes it's public rehab ruth hannah as Mary, Martha, Lydia. The list goes on. God uses women in spectacular God-ordained ways to carry out his purposes. That seems to be something that is missing from the doctrines and the theology of IBLP. Yes, women are to dress modestly. But modesty we see throughout scripture is a value both men and

women are to uphold, not just women, as it is fundamentally about humility in our appearance and honoring Christ with our bodies rather than purposely drawing attention to ourselves. And yes, Christians are called to reserve sex and sexual acts for marriage. And modesty is absolutely a part of that. And women are specifically instructed to ensure that we are carrying ourselves and dressing ourselves in a very dignified and modest way. But again, humility comes back to a state of the heart that has to be regenerated and renewed by Christ, which means it is applicable to all Christians. Sexual purity, which means saving all sexual acts for marriage between a man and a woman is the responsibility of both man and woman,

not just women. Women are not responsible for men's lust for their sexual drug. for their predation, for where their eyes wander, no matter what women are wearing. So yes, we are as women to dawn ourselves with humility to make sure that we are honoring Christ, drawing attention to Christ in all that we wear and how we appear that doesn't necessarily mean wearing dresses or wearing a potato sack. It can mean lots of different things. Of course, I think that there are some probably like strict objective parameters that we can put around the apparel that Christians should wear, but really it's about the heart behind what we are wearing and whom we are drawing attention to through our appearance. But women are not responsible,

no matter what we are wearing for men's lust or predation. And that's something that is lost on the teachers of and the adherence of IBLP. Matthew 527 through 29. Here's what Jesus says. You have heard that it was said, you shall not commit adultery. But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away, for it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. So you see the responsibility is placed on the luster. The responsibility is placed on the person who is looking. The responsibility is placed on the woman who is imagining, committing an adulterous

act with a woman who is not his wife. He said it's better for this person who, who notices that his eye is causing him to lust, not to push the object of his lust to the side and punish her, but to gouge out his own eye, to take it out to ensure that he is not lusting. The responsibility is on the luster. Again, that does not mean that women and men shouldn't dress modestly, that we shouldn't glorify God with what we're wearing with how we appear, but we are not responsible for men's thoughts or for people's thoughts or for their lust and certainly not for their predation. That idea is not supported by scripture. If you look at John 8, a story that many of you know, the woman caught in adultery.

I think that this story is misinterpreted a lot. I don't think I knew the real meaning. behind it. I hadn't really looked into the text and what Jesus actually meant by what he said and what is really going on here. I read a, I have this book that I reference all the time and that I go to to ask questions to and it's ethics for a brave new world. And in the segment talking about the death penalty, because this passage is typically used erroneously to say that Jesus abolished the death penalty. They actually went into the context of what this passage means, especially in. in relation to the Old Testament law that Jesus would have known well and that everyone around

him would have known very well. So in this story, this woman is caught in adultery and there are men standing there ready to stone her. There are Pharisees asking Jesus, trying to trap Jesus as they often did, saying, shouldn't we, shouldn't we execute this woman? Doesn't the law say that she deserves to be stoned because she was caught in adultery? And yet Jesus does something that probably seem very peculiar. He's quiet. He leans down. He seems to draw in the sand. And he says to the people around ready to execute her, you who are without sin, be the one to throw the first stone. One by one, they dropped their stones and they left. And Jesus then offers this woman mercy. And what's typically lost in here is that Jesus is talking about the accuser's sin in that moment. You who are without

sin, be the one to throw the first stone. He's, he's not. He's not. He's not. He's not. He's, He's not saying that if you've ever sinned in your entire life, you are never justified in executing the law that God has put forth. He is not abolishing the death penalty. He is doing what he had done over and over again throughout his ministry. He's exposing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees and the religious zealots by showing that those most zealous to follow the law were not abiding by it correctly. Because Jewish law required the presence of two or three witnesses to stone someone. one caught in adultery. And both parties, the man and the woman, were to be executed, per Deuteronomy 2222. So per usual, the Pharisees and the zealots around them were giving

the appearance of taking the law seriously, but they were actually breaking it. Jesus' problem with the Pharisees was not that they were too holy. It's not that they were too religious. It's not that they cared too much about God's law. It's that they actually weren't holy or righteous enough. They pretended to be religious lawkeepers, but they were constantly making up new rules and ignoring the heart of the laws that God had given Moses. They were actually lawless and they were hypocrites, giving off the appearance of goodness and superiority, while having only love for themselves in their hearts rather than love for God. And this reminds me a lot of the IBLP and Bill Gothard. The rules about dresses or courtship or disciplining your

Kids all used as examples of submission to God's ordained hierarchies added to Scripture and created a system in which people could appear righteous without having any genuine understanding of the gospel or grace or even who God is or why he tells us to do the things that he does. Ginger, when she came on, she told us that she was always in so much fear because of these principles that if she messed up in some way, if she didn't read her Bible enough, she thought bad thoughts, somehow fell out of line of these rules and regulations that were placed for her, that she would fall outside of her gods, outside of gods and her dad's protection and that something terrible would happen to her as punishment. Because remember, they have this picture of these

umbrellas that, you know, women and children are to be under the umbrella of protection under husbands. and then God is the umbrella of protection over that. But what they taught was that if you mess up, if you deny one of these principles that Bill Gothard taught, then there will be a hole in your umbrella. And God will allow these terrible things in our metaphor, hail, lightning, whatever, to get through your umbrella and hurt you. And this is what was taught in the IBLP,

which is really a form of the false prosperity gospel. Do this and God will reward you. Don't do this and God will punish you. God's favor is dependent upon you, your efforts, your prayers. That's different than simply saying some paths are better than others and abiding by godly principles will bear fruit for your family. That's fine. It's really more of a transactional mentality in which God is waiting to bless you or curse you based on your actions, your thoughts, your prayers, and your life will be happy and healthy and whole and easy if you just follow these, rules. That's not biblical. That's not the gospel. Let me read you some passages that show us that.

2 Corinthians 521. For our sake, he made him to be sin who knew no sin so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. Jesus becoming sin on our behalf, even though he was perfect, offering himself as our perfect sacrifice, allowed us by grace through faith. to become the righteousness of God. Ephesians 2.8, for by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing. He emphasizes over and over again, it is the gift of God, not a result of work so that no one may boast. Romans 323 through 25, for all have sin and fall short of the glory of God and are justified by His grace as a gift. through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as propitiation by his blood

to be received by faith. We are free from workspace salvation, from trying to earn God's love and affection that has been secured for us in Christ if we are Christians. If it were up to us to either obtain or maintain salvation, none of us would be saved. We would all fail. It is upon Christ's perfect faithfulness that are approval before God rests. Now, none of this, of course, is an excuse for sin. The Bible is very clear about that. Galatians 513, for you are called the Freedom Brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love, serve one another.

1 Peter 2.16, live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover up for evil, but living as servants of God. Romans 6 1 through 2. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound by no means? How can we who died to sin still live in it? Ephesians 422 through 24. Put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires and be renewed in the spirit of your mind and put on the new self

created after the likeness of God and true righteousness and holiness. So in our pursuit of holiness, our spirit power pursuit of holiness, we operate from a place of freedom, of love for God, not fear that Christ's work on the cross was insufficient or that we have to help him advocate our case before God on our behalf. We, through the power of the Holy Spirit, pursue holiness because we love God, because we trust him, because we believe that his ways are better. And when we become Christians, he places in us an increasing intolerance for and hatred of our own sin that fuels our sanctification, our journey toward Christ-likeness. So the real problems with the IBLP that were exposed through this documentary, the hypocrisy, the emphasis on outward obedience without internal understanding and regeneration, the unbiblical rules and regulations that kept people trapped in legalism and women and children vulnerable to sexual abuse.

use without the possibility of real accountability. The gospelist and graceless message that was pushed by Bill Gothard, a huge hypocrite himself, he didn't abide by many of these principles. He was allegedly a serial predator. He never had a family himself and therefore had no, he really had no personal experience in any of these things that he was pushing on other families. And all of this was carried down, carried out by many of his followers. Also, just in keeping with what I think, think is like biblical criticism of the Dugger family based on what we've seen here and in other places the intrusion and the utter exploitation that was required to film little children their entire lives you guys know how much I care about child safety child privacy that wasn't protected

these kids were not protected they didn't even have the opportunity the ability to consent to any of this. Their entire upbringing, their everyday lives were commercialized, were exploited for profit. The lack of privacy and normalcy had to have a negative impact on their upbringing. They had no choice. Jim Bob, the dad, he seemed to have a relentless interest in increasing influence, no matter the cost. I was shocked to see that some of the girls when they grew up, and the cameras continued to follow them around. If you watch the documentary, you'll see that they basically felt like they had no choice, but to continue on with TLC, that their dad really made them feel like you have to do this.

And he, by the way, he took the money from this stuff. I was shocked to see that some of these girls, after they got married, became women, had also basically been forced or convinced to allow a camera crew into their births. I had no idea that that was something that was happening. I can't even imagine. I cannot, I can't even imagine that. I cannot even imagine the violation of privacy. And I don't think that they had the full authority to say that they didn't want that.

The apparent insistence by Jim Bob to refuse to tell the truth about his son, Josh, when he was called to testify against him in the child sexual abuse material case. By the way, as I've said many times before, for some reason, my take on this has been like, I don't know, completely, like, lied about. But as I said at the time, and I will say again, like, Josh Dugger, if he found guilty of possessing this child's sex abuse material, he should have gotten 25 years to life in prison. He got 12 years. He should have gotten far more than that. And shame on anyone in his family who refused, who knew the truth and refused to actually say the truth for fear that he was going to get some kind of hefty sentence.

look, he's sexually abused via consumption, via exploitation, children that should carry with it a very, very long, severe sentence. 12 years is not enough for the crimes that he has said to have committed. And then also I was like, I think I was very, I don't know if I would say shocked by, but saddened by. And I again, think that this is just unbiblical and wrong exploitation. Jim Bob's alleged, I'll say that because it's alleged, alleged stinchiness with money that was clearly owed to his children whose lives he was actively profiting from. There's a lot going on here.

There's a lot to be said that I think is, was unbiblical about how the show was run, the fact that the show even existed at all, how the IBLP was run, how people were treated, how abuse was allowed in some cases to keep going. in the IBLP. And so there's plenty to criticize about the Duggers. But the criticism, a lot of the criticism, not all, a lot of the criticism that was lodged by this documentary. And some of the people in the documentary was completely hypocritical and sometimes downright absurd that I literally laughed out loud at some of the claims that they were trying to make not just about the Duggers and IBLP, but really Christians, period.

Right. I'm going to bring Brie back in for some of this that I just want to talk about some of the ridiculous stuff that I saw in the documentary that again, you could, if like they had kept it biblical and said like, this is the problem. This is how we distinguish the IBLP from the rest of Christianity or even conservative Christianity. That would have given it more credibility. But what the what they're trying to push and what they're trying to paint here is. that this is conservative Christianity. This is what Christians are like who vote Republican. If you vote pro-life, if you try to get involved in these so-called culture wars, if you're against this like confusion about gender, then you are a dangerous, cult-like fundamentalist who is just like the Duggers. And they really make no distinction at all. And the reason that I know that is because some of the people that they relied on. Oh, my gosh. Like, I've seen their content before.

I'm like, this is not a serious person. I can't believe that you're relying on these people. They have called me specifically, some of these people in this documentary being used as experts. They've called me a fundamentalist. Me, like, they put me in the same category as the Duggers, even though my upbringing was nothing like the Duckers at all. They would have thought I was a wild and crazy progressive. I mean, I definitely wore pants. Actually, I refused to wear dresses for a period of time in my life. I went to college and I dated people and I wore two-piece swimsuits and I got a job after

college and I still have a job now. So, I mean, they would think that I was absolutely out there way past Amy, way past Amy. And yet these people call me a fundamentalist and anyone like me a fundamentalist. Why? Because I also believe in the biblical definition of marriage. Because I also believe at a differentiation in gender roles. Because I also believe and take seriously what the Bible says. And yes, the Bible is the inerrant word of God and we should follow it. And I do think that that view should infuse how we engage in politics and how we engage in culture. Of course I do. And so that's how that's one reason why this documentary loses a lot of credibility for me. Because, okay, I was thinking about this analogy.

Like if I told you, and you can tell me, Bree, if this makes sense. If I told you, you know what? This is not my, what I'm about to say is not about country music. It's just about Luke Bryan. I don't like Luke Bryan,

but all the reasons that I listed for not liking Luke Brian, like I don't like his country accent. I don't like that he sings about beer. I hate that he mentions Tennessee. I hate that his songs are. slow. Like, whatever. You would probably say, well, it sounds like your issue is with country music in general because it's not just Luke Bryant. Okay, you're right. The whole catfish dinner thing,

that was a little cheesy. But everything that you're saying applies just as much to Garth Brooks or just as much to George Strait. In fact, if I brought up George Strait as a, as like an example, you'd be like, okay, but that has nothing to do with Luke Brian. Luke Brian and George straight are the same, but I lumped them. You would say, well, you just don't like country music. And that's the feeling that I got from this documentary. They're, I mean, they're lumping everyone into this. Every conservative Christian that fights the culture war, every conservative Christian that was excited about Roe v. Wade being overturned, every conservative Christian that believes in Ephesians 5 as this crazy, dangerous fundamentalist. Did you get that feeling? Yeah, 100%. And to be

honest, I was shocked that an image of you was not in there. I mean, too. Yeah, I was waiting for it. Because they sift through. I mean, we can go into specifics if you want, but there's a point where they sift through. They're trying to make the point that, like, these people use social media. They use technology to further their agenda. And then they sift through, like, a bunch of, like, Christian influencers who I, the ones I recognize do not identify as fundamentalists. Okay. Like, Paul and Morgan. Paul and Morgan.

I've never seen any of their content. Well, she wears pants, I think. So already. She wears pants. But they played like a couple times of a clip of her saying, you can't be a they, them people. And I'm like, true. Is that fundamentalist?

And they were actually in the documentary. Yeah, I know. They were interviewed. And then they show Girl Defined and a clip of them talking about like drag queens. And they use it as an example of like Christians are talking about these fringe things. and they're coming to the forefront because they're talking about them. And that's, you know. Yeah.

That's what these people are using. Yeah. So spooky. The part that made me laugh out loud was, I mean, they did this multiple times. But like when they would be like, and this person was homeschooled and was in the Trump administration. And this person also wore a long skirt and was excited that Roe v. Wade was overturned. And then they talk about these people who, oh my gosh, they were homeschooled and they were conservative.

And maybe they, like, were friends with the Duggers. They became police officers. And they joined the military. And they joined the CIA. And they ran for office to try to make it seem like. There was this huge, like, in lockstep militia of IBLP adherents that are taking over the world. like the hyenas in Lion King, like they're just one after another after another.

I'm like, okay, you're talking about maybe a few thousand people. Maybe, maybe on a good day. And or a bad day, however you want to say it. Like that was absolutely ridiculous to me. And that it is them who are so scarily like imbueing their values into children and teaching their children. to like to push their value now I'm not saying that their values were good but to imply that it is only this sect or it's conservative Christians that are passing down values to their kids that I mean that's totally hypocritical and ridiculous like who runs the show in this world is it Bill Gothard and the Duggers like who controls big government, the major security entities, the security state, the doctrines and ideology of the military, the major corporations, the public education system, academia, like what ideology is controlling those entities in our country? Is it Christian fundamentalism, Christian nationalism? They actually, I don't think said Christian nationalism very much. Or is it progressivism? It's progressivism.

Like we have the Biden administration, the federal government, most state governments. We have our medical industrial complex in the United States. We've got our branches of our military all waving this flag that includes the transgender colors, which is an umbrella for children maiming their bodies in the name of gender affirmation. That's what's going on from the top down. progressive ideology dominates every single major national and almost every major international or national and international institution. This idea that men can become women, this idea that bodily autonomy means killing your children, this idea that we can rearrange the family to be

two women, two men, three people. Like that is all, that's all mainstream. Those are all the biggest most influential doctrines in our country. Like I would love to see where these scary Christian nationalists are placing their influence and actually winning in a major way. Like, is the fundamentalist in the room with us right now? Like they try to make it seem like IBLP is militarizing and taking over the world without actually any evidence of that. Yeah, they say one of the interviewees, I guess ex-IBLP says world domination was the goal. And then they go into talking about the Joshua Generation, which Alex Harris, Joshua Harris's brother, the I Kiss dating goodbye guy who deconstructed. Yeah, yeah, his brother quotes what the Joshua generation is as a decades long multi-generational plan to raise up an elite strike force of Christian homeschool graduates to infiltrate the highest levels of government.

government. So scary. And then they talk about how the most important goal is that we see these people go into the U.S. Supreme Court and bring America back to its rightful position as a Christian nation. This is what scary music is playing under this. Yes. And then they cut to footage of Roe v. Wade being overturned. And wait, which member of the IBLP is currently on the Supreme Court? They conveniently don't bring that up. Mention that. And mind you, this whole section is in, it's sandwiched between them talking about Josh Dugger's sexual issues. Right. On the other side of it is talking about Bill Gothard's sexual misconduct.

So this is just kind of like the Roe v. Wade, these evil Christians wanting to overturn abortion is like conveniently sandwiched between two stories of people being awful, Christians being awful. Professing Christians. Yeah. professing Christians being awful. So it just obviously conflating the two. I think that that was very intentional. Oh, I think it was intentional too.

And the whole thing about, oh, the dangers of seeing like your children as arrows being launched into the future to fight these culture wars. On the one hand, I understand, they're primarily, they're image bearers that we are to steward. We have responsibility for our children to care for and protect them. They're not primarily to be seen. like vessels for the culture war, whatever it is. Like our goal is to help our children glorify God and everything they think, say,

and do through discipleship. But it does, I mean, Psalm 127.4 does say that like arrows in a quiver are the children of one's youth. So yes, everyone understands whether you're a Christian or not, that the most influential thing that you can do is teach children. I mean, that's why Progressives is taken over the public education system. That's why there are now a million kids' books about being able to switch your gender. That's why there's drag queen story hour.

That's why now they're including children in conversations about sexuality and gender confusion and making sure that kids know that Black Lives Matter, creating these little activists in, you know, student groups and at school, I mean, the left has been dominating child influence for a very long time for the goal of global domination, explicitly. And they've done that really well. Look, guys, you have the World Economic Forum, some of the richest billionaires in the world funding your stuff. Not the other way around. You have the power.

You have the corporations. You have the major governments. You have the billionaires. You have the pharmaceutical companies. Like, you've got the money. You've got the authority. You've got the influence. You've got the global domination.

Not fundamentalists. Not Christian conservatives. You've created a bull. to justify your naked quest for power by pointing a finger at other people who you claim are doing the same thing that you're doing. I love the, I love the little like cute, shy thing that progressives do. Like, they want power. We would never want power. We would never want power. What? We don't, we don't want the government. We know what? No, we're just, we're just here. want equality. We just want love. We just want inclusion. Sit down as I force this vaccine into

your arm. Like, I mean, that's, that's funny. You guys literally shut down the world during COVID and forced two-year-olds to wear masks. Oh, no, we don't, we don't want power. We just want the government to punish you for disagreeing with us. We just want to ruin the life of a Christian baker because he won't make our transgender cake. What? No, we don't want power. We're just minding our own business. By the way, we will burn down your city if we're mad about something. So the hypocrisy of the progressive critics on this, it just, I mean, that was the, that was the craziest part to me. It was clear they had no, no idea and no intention of finding someone, you already said this, but who could differentiate, you know, the gospel versus what

these people believed. But also, yeah, just the fact. that like you clearly know nothing about Christianity because you would know that yeah Christians do want to spread the gospel around the world. Yeah. But the fact that you don't think your ideology, the people who believe in your ideology, also want world domination of it. And you're saying homeschooled militia is the threat. Yeah.

Really? Those guys are the threat? Okay. Right. No, you make such a good point that they did not even attempt to bring one person on there. No. To distinguish between what the gospel is. and what IBLP was and what Christianity should really be, or according to the Bible, and their version of Christianity.

Instead, they had on all these progressives just talking about how, like, how we just all need to deconstruct. But they never even said deconstruct into what, you know? They talk about it for a second. And they use, this is, this part got me also. They use Ginger as an example. Right. And they creatively cut up some of her interview footage, not from our show. but other shows where she's warning people against like Gothard's teachings,

but they conveniently leave out the most important part, which is one, she's still a Christian. And two, that she doesn't call it deconstruction. She calls it disentanglement. And so they kind of use her as an example of deconstructing this faith when that's not even what she would call it. That's not how she defines it. Yeah.

Yeah. I never have found someone who truly deconstructing. and deconstructs to a more biblical form of Christianity. I mean, because that, again, I would say is not necessarily deconstructing. It's just sanctification. It's what we all do. Like, I can look back to high school and college and I can see some of the things that I believe, some of the things that I read that were not true.

Like prosperity gospel totally. I mean, I was kind of like I was taught some of those things, believed it. Some of the things about like a woman's worth being tied to like how, like, like if she kissed one or two guys or something in high school, like I believed those things. But as I read the Bible more and as I was sanctified by the Holy Spirit, I let those beliefs go. That's not deconstructing. I'm not deconstructing. That is just sanctification. I think that's also what, I think that's what Ginger would say. And they totally used her, I think, in the wrong way. Yeah. And I don't know if they asked her for an interview and she said no,

but from the angle that they took with the whole narrative, I have a feeling that they didn't. Yeah. But I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Okay. So I just wanted to get into Bree. I have a final quote that I kind of want to end on.

But you listed a lot of things that you particularly found like disturbing or interesting. And unfortunately, we don't have time to get into all of them. But I just want to hear some of those things. Like what are some of the things as you were watching that like surprise? you or you thought we're a strange or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Well, first, I wrote this up at the top. I found it really interesting. I forget who said it, probably some ex-member, talking about how Michelle Dugger uses that baby voice. Yeah. So you don't think that's genuine. Well, she says in it, she used to be a cheerleader. And so the girl who's being interviewed says, I know she can yell like a normal woman,

But she chooses to speak in a baby voice because infantilization is sort of one of the tenets of what they teach women to be. And I just thought that that was really interesting. Yeah. That's really bizarre. It's like hilarious Baldwin who grew up in Boston and has mysteriously, she doesn't say caa anymore. She says, caro, or whatever it is. She's decided that she's Hispanic. She's happened sometimes, I guess.

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, it would be interested to know if someone, like, knew her before. Maybe she's always had, like, this high-bitched voice. But I do, like, the infantilization of women just in general. And this is not even just IBLP. I think we've seen it some in the so-called patriarchist movement recently. It really grosses me out.

Yeah, it grosses me out. And I do think that that can set the basis for the kind of abuse that Josh perpetrated. I'm not saying that's the only reason for it. I mean, sin is sin. But it's like, I don't know, this idea that women are like, that their minds aren't fully formed or that they just don't have the same capacity for maturation and understanding and resistance. Like there was this one story of one of the girls. I was also like cleaning up and like listening to this at the same time so I didn't see who it was who was talking about that at one of these like IBLP, I don't know if it was like camps or training sessions or something for young people that one of the leaders, because they were taught like the old. this male present is always the one in charge, like crawled into her bed.

Yeah. And she didn't know how to say no because she had never been taught. She'd been taught like you don't question any authority, especially male authority. And I think it's purposeful not to tell girls how to say no, which really makes me wonder what, how it really went down when Josh was molesting his sisters. because if they were taught, like, this is the, this is a part of authority and we don't know how to say no. Again, that infantilization patronization of women is just really just like stomach turning for me. Yeah. If women are dumb little babies who don't know anything, then you can do whatever you want.

Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah, it's sick. The other thing having to do with those IBLP facilities, they would send kids to them. them for like homeschool camps or summer camps. And they would just make them work for like 15, 16 hours a day, uh, apparently, allegedly. Um, and one, one former member claims, if you got in trouble, they would lock you in an empty hotel room for hours or days or weeks and give you a Bible

until they thought you were repentant enough. And the people who decided were other kids who were like slightly older. Um, and so she said one time, a team leader didn't like the shoes she was wearing because they had like a tiny heel. A feel. Yeah. And that would, you know, distract men. And so she got locked in a prayer room for four days. Okay. Tell us what your what your mom told you.

Because she regretfully, she didn't realize it at the time. A lot of Christians in the 80s and 90s, you know, like you just didn't know. I don't think my parents ever attended it. But your mom attended one. Tell us what she said. Yeah. My parents went. I think they were just invited to a Bill Gothard seminar.

And they went. And she said, the saddest thing. like looking back is that there is some truth mixed in with all of this evil that they are also talking about. But she regrets listening to anything he said. She says, I remember him talking about how it was wrong to listen to women singing in a microphone because that was representing an intimacy that you shouldn't have with that woman. He also said that he didn't believe in adoption because you could bring a demon possessed child into your house. Okay. That's wild. Although, I feel like I have seen that idea, I think is more prevalent than we think.

Really? In that part of the world and professing Christianity, not necessarily the demon, but that they could be a bad influence. Oh, yeah. Which is really sad. And again, the opposite of the gospel on the, like in the name of protection and safety, it's kind of the same thing that progressives do. This is for your safety.

This is for your own good. This is why we have to like put these rules. This is why the government has to force you to do something. It's like I guess Colts do this, but especially IBLP, like for your safety and protection. Like we have to basically not abide by scripture. We have to make sure that you do all these things and put these heavy burdens on you. Yeah. And Jesus's burden is light and his yoke is easy.

And it's not because we don't obey. It's because we understand like the gospel of grace that motivates us to obey. And that's something that both IBLP get wrong and this documentary gets wrong. Because this documentary never talks about the importance of becoming like Christ or like the freedom that is actually offered through the gospel. Crazy. Okay. So this is what I wanted to close out on because this is what I've seen. It kind of brings it back to the beginning when I talked about like the loss of credibility in some ways that this documentary has because they conflate like all conservative Christianity with IBLP and some.

of the dangerous doctrines that were pushed by people like the Duggers and believed by people like the Duggers. Everyone's a fundamentalist who believes in pushing back against some of the dark parts of our culture. Everyone's a fundamentalist who believes in the definition of marriage. Everyone's a fundamentalist who is against abortion. Everyone is a fundamentalist who is against or who is for the gender binary. And it's just a way to make you scare.

It's a way to say, well, I don't want to associate with those people over there because those people are extreme. Those people are radical. Those people have scary documentaries made about them. Those people are seen as hateful. Those people cause real harm. So they want you to say, well, I'm going to get as far away from that as possible. And their methods, their implied methods for getting as far away from that as possible is not sticking more closely to scripture, not understanding the gospel better, not spending more time in prayer and being better sanctified by the Holy Spirit. it is by becoming more progressive.

Because that's the things that they show that are so scary. They want you to be pro-choice. They want you to be pro-gay marriage. They want you to be pro-gender switching and the idea of being like they, them. Because those are the things that they show and categorize as bad and scary and Christian nationalists. They want you to stay home. They want you to be the only kind of American that does not bring their worldview to the voting bill and does not try to influence culture or curriculum with what you believe. Progressives can do that totally, and it's totally fine. It's just neutral. It's just about love and inclusion. But as soon as you try to infuse your Christian values in every sphere that you occupy, suddenly, that's scary and that's militant and that's taking over the world. And so it really does. It requires a lot of discernment when watching this and realizing that this is, even though some of the criticisms by the documentary, you're totally legitimate and should be reckoned with and taken seriously.

And all of that, some of them are ridiculous and completely worldly and also equally anti-gospel and harmful. And it reminds me of this quote by C.S. Lewis in the screw tape letters that I think about a lot. Today, everyone's a fundamentalist who just takes the Bible seriously. Well, back when C.S. Lewis was writing the screw tape letters, everyone was a Puritan who took things seriously. You don't want to be a puritan because puritans were too strict. They were too pious. They were too reliant. They were too religious. They were too phariseical. And you don't want to be a Puritan. It's okay to kind of be a Christian, but you don't want to be a Puritan. And screw tape letters, if you don't know, they're demon. It's a demon writing to his demon nephew who is on assignment trying to basically

corrupt the soul of his patient or the person that he is assigned to. And this, the demon writing, the uncle screw tape, says that it's very, very good to conflate or to say. And to that being a Puritan is bad and to conflate normal Christian virtues with being a bad Puritan, because that actually keeps people away from actually following scripture. So here's how he says it. In modern Christian writings, though I see much about Mammon, which is like materialism, I see few of the old warnings about worldly vanities, the choice of friends and the value of time. All of that, your patient would probably classify as Puritanism. And may I remark in passing that the value we have given to that word is one of the really solid triumphs of the last hundred years.

By it, we rescue annually thousands of humans from temperance, chastity, and sobriety of life. And so that from the satanic demonic perspective is a win. When you can call basic Christian tenets, scary fundamentalism, fascism, Christian nationalism, frightening Puritanism. Then you can keep people away from abiding by what the Word of God says because they're scared to be categorized as an extremist. Annually, thousands of humans are saved, says this demon from temperance, chastity, and sobriety of life because they're scared that makes them a Puritan.

Look, how do we protect ourselves from the legalistic aspects of people who profess Christianity as well as the degeneracy that we see from the world, which also tries to present a perverted form of morality or Christianity, we stick to God's word. We ask for wisdom and discernment. His ways are perfect, and he is so gracious to give us a lot of clarity in scripture. That doesn't mean that we're going to agree on every issue, but all these big things, the Bible is really clear.

If we're going to church and we see and we hear a pre-year, a pastor say something that doesn't align with God's word, whether it's on the progressive side or whether it's on this actual fundamentalist side, we have access to the word of God. One of the beautiful parts about the Protestant Reformation. We have access to the Word of God in our language. We have access to the Holy Spirit if we are Christians to give us wisdom, give us discernment, and say, but what does Scripture say? What does Scripture say?

So that's my biggest takeaway, I think, from this documentary. You guys have been asking so much for me to give my thoughts on it. I know it was a longer episode, but there's a lot to talk about. We could have talked about a lot more. Maybe we'll do a follow-up at some point if you guys have more questions. Didn't have time to get to some of the stuff, the SBC stuff that I wanted to talk about. I'll have to do that on a later date. We got some good guests coming up this week.

And so maybe on Thursday we'll be able to cover that. All right, we will be back here tomorrow. See you then. Hey, this is Steve Deast. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country, aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't

offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day Show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.