Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 858 | The Disturbing Origins of Adderall | Guest: Dr. Roger McFillin (Part Two)

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

Starting point is 00:00:19 We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. What are the origins of ADHD medication? Why are we prescribing stuff that doesn't even fix the behaviors that are associated with ADD and ADHD? And what should we do to help ourselves or to help our children who may be struggling with, attention issues or behavioral issues, how do we get to root causes and treat these problems

Starting point is 00:01:05 in a healthy and actually productive way? That's what we're going to discuss today with Dr. Roger McPhillan, a clinical psychologist. This is part two of a two-part conversation about ADD and ADHD, the problems with these diagnoses and how we treat them. Go back and listen to part one yesterday's episode if you haven't done it already. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use Code Alley at checkout. That's good ranchers.com.

Starting point is 00:01:32 Code Alley. It was kind of like a joke in college. And maybe it still is now. You mentioned this, that abuse of medicines, medications like Adderall is very common on university campuses. And I remember that in college. It was like a joke that people would take someone's Adderall that was prescribed to And thankfully, I never did that because I just had like a fear of being dependent upon anything or addicted to anything.

Starting point is 00:02:07 But I had friends who did. And they would joke about like, oh, yeah, I stayed up all night to write my paper that I've been putting off. Or they would say, don't, you know, don't start doing something like not study related after you've taken Adderall because you won't be able to stop doing that. If you start cleaning your room or something when you're on Adderall, you won't be able to stop cleaning your room. You'll be cleaning your room all night. It is crazy how just pervasive it's gotten and how almost funny it's gotten that it is the same thing. It does sound like the same thing as someone being on cocaine or some kind of stimulant that we all know is sketchy and that you shouldn't engage in. And yet when it comes to these pharmaceuticals, people just kind of shrug their shoulders and say, yeah, that's just what I needed to study or that's just what I needed to get by.

Starting point is 00:02:56 And there are all kinds of justifications for it. And I can sympathize with it again as someone who, you know, I'm thinking about a million different things at once. I have a hard time. I have to try really hard to stay organized and keep up with my schedule growing up. I was always losing papers. I was losing pens. I was always amazed at people who kept the same school supplies all year long. But, you know, I grew up and I figured out tools to, you know, be able to succeed in life and to be a productive person without medication.

Starting point is 00:03:29 And so while I can sympathize with it at the same time, I think our nonchalant attitude about just medicating kind of normal personality traits as you're talking about has really scary long term implications, it really unknown long term implications on the people who have kind of fallen for that narrative. It's an experiment on the brain. There's no doubt about that. And so one of the things that I think is really important to your listeners. So I want to speak to if somebody is a detract. to that last statement, they'll say, well, we cannot compare somebody who's abusing the drug and taking higher doses to those who have a legitimate condition. The truth of the matter is we have no idea how people are going to respond to drugs. We're all so diverse. So people are going to

Starting point is 00:04:14 respond differently to drugs. Some people will get manic, potentially even develop psychosis, have increased energy, euphoria, while others will have more enhanced focus. It will calm some others down, while others will create tachycardia, which is increased heart rate, can increase your blood pressure. There's just a varied reaction. And so there's a large range in the dosage that psychiatrists or pediatricians are going to prescribe because it is trial and error. The other thing that I think is really important for your listeners to know is there can be legitimate reasons why someone's having a hard time focusing and they are mislabeled as ADHD. So let me give you some really important examples. And the work that I do, kids who have been abused or come from

Starting point is 00:05:02 neglectful environments are going to have a difficult time sitting still and focusing. It's a natural response to danger or traumatic events. We've seen this uptake in girls who are kind of perfectionistic or worriers because they are internalizers. And so they're having a hard time focusing there attention on certain tasks that are non-stimulating and they retreat inward into their minds. And so that's a legitimate problem with concentration, but the problem is worry or perfectionism. Other things that are really important to know is we are in a unique period in human evolution. This technological age where everyone has a smartphone is new. Our brains are neuroplastic. That means they are very adaptable. We have evolved to be able to focus our attention on what is the most

Starting point is 00:05:57 relevant stimuli. So what is the most relevant stimuli? It's often what is engaging to our brain. In life-threatening situations, obviously it's going to be situations that pose danger. In other situations, it can be what creates something that's really interesting to us. So put kids on social media and video games since they were very young. And we're in a period where, you know, toddlers are being raised by smart pads and iPads and things like that where they're watching television and other movies. What does that do to the brain and our own ability to be able to focus to non-relevant stimuli? So we're going to raise kids with iPads in front of them and then have them, expect them to go into school environments and focus on math or science or a teacher.

Starting point is 00:06:47 So that's something that we have to really look at is how the brain is adapting to this new technology. Again, the ethical question is, does that mean it's a disorder? No, I think a lot of people would say that the brain is designed to adapt to the most relevant of situations, and there's a lot of diversity. So you as a, in the media who likes to talk, obviously, you know, those skills served you well in your later career and you have a lot of success. But let's think about people in the military or farmers or anyone who is in some type of profession where you're using your hands, and construction workers and so forth. We compare the differences amongst a human population and strengths and weaknesses. It's very concerning for us to kind of restrict

Starting point is 00:07:33 about how somebody should be. That diversity is extremely important. So this is what I was seeing in the schools when I was working in the schools. The kids that were getting identified as ADHD from the school environment, predominantly boys, predominantly boys who were active, If probably boys who would later go to like Votech programs. So that in itself is concerning. The other group of kids that would often get identified with ADHD is ones who are having other mental health problems. And that could be anxiety, depression, horrible home environments, getting bullied, things

Starting point is 00:08:06 like that. It's very difficult to focus in school when other things are capturing your attention. And that's how we're designed to be. So when we talk about ADHD not being a real diagnosis, what I mean it's not a discrete diagnosis. It should be a rule out. It's all it is is a constellation of symptoms that's being misapplied to more and more people driving high rates of drug use.

Starting point is 00:08:31 Right now as we speak, we have an Adderall shortage in the United States, at least partially due to how many people are taking that drug. Hey, this is Steve Deast. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issue. facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers

Starting point is 00:09:06 wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed. You can watch this D-Day Show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. I want to talk a little bit about the origin of ADHD treatments, which I heard on an episode of your podcast. You had a guest, Patrick Hahn. He wrote a book called obedience pills, ADHD and the medicalization of childhood. And he talks about Charles Bradley, 1937. He was a psychiatrist who administered, and you can tell me if I am pronouncing these correctly,

Starting point is 00:09:56 benzidrine sulfate to problem children at the Emma Pendleton Bradley Home in Providence, Rhode Island. He was using, you're going to have to pronounce this word for me. Let's see if I can do it. Bradley was using a pneumo in cephalography, pneumo encephalography to study children's brains. and basically he found that putting them on this medication subdued them. It made them quiet and still. And so that was the precursor to a lot of the medicalization that we see today, the precursor

Starting point is 00:10:34 to things like Ritalin. And so, I mean, this seems to be kind of the origin story of a lot of these medications today that it started from kind of like a faulty premise and an experiment that didn't actually go very well. and yet it's been carried into the 21st century, has been advertised and marketed as a happy pill or a compliance pill. It's kind of crazy that no one even asks, wait, what is the science behind this and where did this all start?

Starting point is 00:11:03 Well, I think that speaks to the historical context of this in the industrial age. At some point, we needed to train factory workers. We needed to train obedient capitalists for the American economy to function in the way that it did. We needed to have workers who were going to show up at time, on time, stay focused, listen to their direct manager or superior. And we had to create environments where that system was going to function economically. And that's why you see the U.S. public school system evolve in the way that it did. It's why you have bells. It kind of mimics a factory system. And so you're thinking about how I think it's the, it's the integration of major industries and thought leaders in industry.

Starting point is 00:11:51 So we know how this benefits the pharmaceutical industry. But also in a functioning society, you only have so many people in leadership. You only have so many people who are actually running the company, making decisions. You need a whole lot of people to be able to function on specific tasks that are, not very stimulating and you have to be able to focus your attention and follow those rules. So there's there's beliefs that this is part of a larger systemic system of trying to institute manners of means of control on the population. And so we are evolving as a culture where we're seeing things that are also really important.

Starting point is 00:12:37 We're seeing less connection with nature, more social isolation. our food source is implicated in also having some difficulties with concentration and hyperactivity. I don't know if you're aware of like the impact of nutrient deficiencies or glyphosate, which is a pesticide that is sprayed on our wheat crops or red dyes. These are these are chemicals. I'm just kind of starting to learn about this actually. I think COVID kind of was an impetus for a lot of people to start looking into how all

Starting point is 00:13:10 the different parts of our system may be affecting us. So I don't know, I don't know a lot, but I have definitely heard about red, what is it, Red 40, one of the dyes. And I mean, a lot of the ingredients that we use here in the United States are illegal in other parts of the world. And again, if you question it, it's kind of like you're some kooky woo-woo conspiracy theorist. Yeah, it's really important that this should be probably a future podcast for you to get experts in this area, but it's very clear science that these pesticides or these dyes or some of the other things that we put in American food are going to create some of the symptoms that mimic the diagnosis of ADHD. So it's a whole system that kind of works together.

Starting point is 00:13:54 I call it the sick care system. So we raise kids on horrible food, sugars, dies, pesticides. They're on screens and their behavior is a problem entering into the school system. then we have a drug for that and then the later problems with their health related to the lack of you know, activity, a sedentary lifestyle, being in screens and eating poor foods, then we have more drugs for that. And it all feeds off of itself. I'm just saying that as parents, we need to be aware that these diagnoses are not legitimate and that you could be missing other options to be able to assist your kid if they are having problems with attention and hyperactivity. They include dietary changes, behavioral interventions.

Starting point is 00:14:44 So another reason why kids are going to have problems in school is if you don't have a very disciplined home. And some parents really do need help, especially in modern society where there's so many two-parent income homes. They're outside of the home. Their kids are in daycare during the day. They're under a lot of stress because of the financial challenge. that exists. And you come home and you have a two-year-old or a three-year-old or a four-year-old.

Starting point is 00:15:09 And those are critical periods of time for self-discipline and emotion regulation skills to be developed. And you're just wiped out. So what do you do? You pull out the screen or you scream and yell. And before you know it, you've developed situations in your home where your kid's behavior is kind of controlling the entire environment. And then you go into school and you see something similar. So the problem with the ADHD diagnosis, it doesn't help people like me. It doesn't give me any information. It doesn't help me be able to identify what are the legitimate problems that are affecting that kid in these specific environments. Sometimes they're just not meant for the environment. The environment is the problem, not the kid. And we have to be able to recognize what are those

Starting point is 00:15:52 unique strengths and how do we create learning environments that can be able to optimize who that kid's natural brain activity, personality, and skills are so they can feel good about who they are and they can learn in a way that's going to fit their talents. I think that human beings being individual is really inconvenient for people and for systems that rely on everyone kind of learning the same way and acting the same way, something that you alluded to a few minutes ago. And also, I think it can be confusing for parents who say they have three kids, all the kids were raised the same way, but they've got a one child, one child who just won't listen, won't comply, won't behave. And so I think sometimes

Starting point is 00:16:45 that pushes parents to say, well, there must be something diagnosably wrong with this child because my other kids aren't like that, maybe forgetting and maybe we all do at some points that everyone's an individual. It might be the parenting, it might not, it might be personality, but there are a lot of different factors that don't mean that there is something that needs to be medicated in your child just because they're not the same as either other students or the same as their siblings. Yeah, there's a nice bell-shaped curve that exists across so many different attributes. And kids require different things in order for them to thrive. And you know what, that's the way we want it to be. Think about how beautifully integrated our entire society is that

Starting point is 00:17:31 you can have people who can construct buildings and and our mechanical. while others are creating beautiful works of art. And then you have scientists, and then you have media with incredible verbal skills and asking incredible questions. And you just think about the diversity that exists for a society to function. It's so perfectly integrated. And so that's why we have to be very resistant to the idea of restricting or limiting how kids should behave and be.

Starting point is 00:18:05 And that's why we're seeing movements around home. schooling because when I look at the, look at the data, kids are in school too long. Our sleep is disrupted because of the school day. So we don't have a schedule that fits the needs of kids sleep. They're not active enough. If you go back to the Bush era with no child left behind, there was such an emphasis on testing that a lot of schools started eliminating recess. And it's just really cool to see other programs who are integrating a lot more activity and then that decreases the diagnosis of that of ADHD. The problem there is you need active kids to be able to be active. Social kids need to be able to socialize. These things are critically important to development. And if we're not aware of

Starting point is 00:18:51 that and we believe kids should only act one certain way, then what are we doing? We're creating a generation of kids who are going to have mental and behavioral health problems. What do we currently have? Generation of kids having mental and behavioral health problems. Yes. I want to talk a little bit. We don't have very much time left, but I want to talk a little bit about the marketing of these ADD medications that we did touch on when we were talking about the teachers and

Starting point is 00:19:19 the kind of messages that the teachers relate to parents, that whether they're intended to or not, they do guilt the parents into saying, wow, if I really love my child, if I really want to help my child reach their full potential. That's really like the line that's used. Reach their full potential. Then I'll give them this ADD medication or whatever. And you've talked about this before, these advertisements that use that, that use that language that your child will be able to become their full self, will reveal their better self. And there's even advertisements that have been analyzed over the years, like showing a child that once really struggled and stressed out mom to now this child who's taking out the garbage voluntarily and he was thriving

Starting point is 00:20:01 with their friends and they're excelling athletically and academically. That's kind of what you're promised in some ways with these medications. And like what parent doesn't want that? What parent doesn't want this child who is voluntarily and happily doing their chores? And we're told that's what Adderall is going to do for your child. And to be honest, like I've heard some parents, say things like that. I've heard some adults. I'm thinking of a friend right now who's an adult. He would say he is ADHD and takes medication for it. And he would say this helps me reach my full potential. I wouldn't be able to function without this. I have such debilitating ADHD. This is how I'm able to thrive. So like what is what's your response to all of that? Okay. I'm going to repeat some

Starting point is 00:20:49 things that I said the last time I was on there. So we laid the foundation here with this. Is that The pharmaceutical industry is the largest criminal organization, most lucrative criminal organization in the history of the world. They lie. They have lied. They've withheld important data from clinical trials. They're routinely sued and fined by the federal government. Their drugs are just so lucrative that they can pay the lawsuits, that they can defend

Starting point is 00:21:25 themselves, that they can pay the fines. So their job is to make as much money as they can. They are beholden to their shareholders. They are not beholden to us. With that being said, there is truth. Remember, I've said that stimulants are, they are cognitive enhancers. They are performance enhancing drugs. And there will be a percentage of people who don't necessarily have the same adverse side effects. And for a period of time, it's going to be really beneficial. Again, the question is, what is the long-term risks of doing that? The idea of things being, saving your life and, you know, kind of those hyperbolic

Starting point is 00:22:08 statements, I want to bring people's attention to a study that just recently came out regarding placebo for pain. They took an opiate group and a placebo group for people who were experiencing chronic pain. and the opiate group or the placebo group just helped perform the opiate group. Other studies that are widely available, there was a really interesting study where orthopedic surgeons were doing a arthroscopic knee surgery where they weren't sure if that improved mobility or outcomes. So they set up a group that they provided them the arthroscopic knee surgery, and then

Starting point is 00:22:48 they took a group where they didn't know. So they were wheeled into a OR, they were provided anesthesia, they woke up, they were told that they had the arthroscopic knee surgery. And you know what they find is that the group that did not get the surgery has decreased pain, increased mobility, they just feel better. So the point I want to make to people is that we are creators of our own reality. What we choose to believe will become powerful. If you believe you can't focus, which is very hard for you to determine, how can we compare one person to another? These are internal experiences with complex causes. But once you identify yourself to have an impairment, one that you can't identify, that no medical professional is going

Starting point is 00:23:36 to be able to identify, this becomes your experience. So does that then impair your ability to learn the tools or do the necessary work in order to focus? We know that attention is similar to other attributes. So if I go to the gym and I work out, I can get stronger. I might not be, I might not be 250 pounds of pure muscle because I'm limited by my genetics, but I can maximize or optimize my potential. And so when we think about attention or things of that nature, it's very critical that we think about that in a similar way because we do have a lot of tools, behavioral treatments,

Starting point is 00:24:16 and work that can be done that do improve the ability to focus. So you are creative of your reality. So if you tell yourself that this drug is changing your life, you're going to believe that, that's going to be your experience. You're going to share that with people. It might even enhance the outcomes. But again, what is the dark side? It's what happens to this drug long term, how the body and brain adapts.

Starting point is 00:24:38 And that's the thing around informed consent. So if parents are given this information and say, hey, we're going to put your kid on a stimulant at age four, and we're uncertain what it's going to do to their brain down the line. We have no idea about its effect, but they do mimic other stimulant drugs that are highly addictive, and this is a drug that will create dependence down the line. Here are all the negative consequences for this. Potentially, it's going to act on the reward centers of the brain. So you start giving people that information, or you say, or we can provide these other interventions.

Starting point is 00:25:14 We can try to identify what your kid's unique talents and skills are. We can try to put in an environment that allows him to explore and learn. And then we can have a really good token economy behavioral system at home and assist you with parenting to be able to manage who your kid is. Because right now it might be a perceived weakness and it might be difficult to be able to a parent a kid who is that active. But down the line, this might be a blessing. And this might be exactly who they are meant to be. And for parents who they're struggling, either with a kid who is so different than their other siblings or classmates or whatever

Starting point is 00:26:04 or has behavioral problems or maybe has been placed on medication, but now they're realizing, okay, I don't want to do this anymore. I want to figure out something else. Is there a place that they can go just to get started? I think that's really overwhelming and a little bit scary for parents to know what this route really looks like? What do you recommend? Yeah, it's a, it's very difficult for me to answer these questions because we're currently in a system where someone like me is right now on the outskirts of what is typical. So I'm making statements that have not been yet accepted

Starting point is 00:26:41 mainstream in the medical system. So what I do is I try to prevent harm. I try to get people to think about the experience differently. So instead of thinking about poor concentration in a school environment or maybe an active kid as something that is really problematic and detrimental to them down the line, reframe it and see what are their strengths, how can we set an environment that responds to them, how can I work with teachers that can be aware of what my kid needs, and how can I put them in environments with people who are much more tolerable for the variability of human behaviors and especially kids' behavior. I think environment is key. Now, the one thing I want to say

Starting point is 00:27:32 is the potential exists that somebody's listening who has a child who has really clear neurodevelopmental problems and is a special needs kid. So if a stimulant medication can calm that person down and improve quality of life, then that is always an option. And then you have to think about how that drug can be implemented in a way that can maintain safety down the line. So things that used to happen in the past that are not as frequent anymore, things like drug holidays. So putting somebody on a stimulant for a period of time and then periods without being on the drug, like taking summers off. The reason they did that was because of the concerns for dependence. And so the long-term use appears to be problematic.

Starting point is 00:28:21 So that's another way to think about it. But I'm going to say 99.8% of your listening population likely shouldn't have children on stimulant drugs due to the long-term risks and should be considering alternative ways of viewing this problem. Well, thank you so much, Dr. McPhillan. This is going to be, I'm sure, it's going to stir some controversy, but a lot of truth, if not all truth, stirs controversy and there have to be people

Starting point is 00:28:53 who are out in front of something before it becomes mainstream. It takes a lot of voices, it takes a lot of strength, it takes a lot of persistence and perseverance, and as you have experienced yourself, it's a big pharma inclusion with big tech, and the messages that you are speaking out against are protected. And it's all, they're protected in the name of alleviating harm when in reality that is what you are trying to do is alleviate harm rather than cause it.

Starting point is 00:29:26 So, okay, where can people find you, follow you, all that good stuff? Yeah, you can find me on Twitter at Dr. McPhillen. So I'm very active on Twitter. We have a website at Dr. McPhillen.com. There's a radically genuine podcast where we have amazing guests. and we continue to increase our audience. Thanks to you and a lot of the people who are listening have now jumped on the Radically Genuine podcast to get some of this alternative information. We also have a YouTube channel at Radically Genuine, even though that YouTube channel was unfortunately terminated early on.

Starting point is 00:30:06 There was a big widespread support with Joe Rogan and others to get that YouTube video channel backup. up. And so we're going to be putting on resources on that YouTube channel to be able to provide information. Listen, if you get anything from me, it's that I support your individual right to be able to make informed health care decisions. So I'm giving you the other side. There's a dark side to a lot of these common psychiatric diagnoses and drugs that are provided as frontline treatment, ones that most people are not aware of. Be aware. We have to be informed consumers. There is an awakening that has occurred post-pandemic where we realize that just blindly accepting the medical authorities' recommendations have created significant harm. And a lot of us are trying to take back that individual freedom.

Starting point is 00:30:59 I'm concerned about the expert culture. Don't just accept my opinion. There's many people like me, but be able to trust yourself in common sense. And I do believe a lot of people can also do independent research and bring this information to their physicians or other people that they trust, whether it's in the mental health system or within the medical system, we just have to be better at giving accurate information. We are in a culture that is overestimating benefits from potentially harmful medical interventions and we're underestimating the risks. And so I'm trying to give accurate information and allow people to make informed decisions

Starting point is 00:31:37 and consider what alternatives exist. I think there's going to have to be a shift in the way we think about humanity. Well, thank you so much and thanks for your message. And I'm hopeful that you will be on the Joe Rogan podcast at some point in the future. That would be amazing. I'm rooting for that. So thanks so much for taking the time to come on. Thank you, Alie. I really appreciate it. Hey, Relator bells and Relative Bros. If you could please leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to Relatable, that would mean so much to us. And it really does help the show. Also, if you haven't subscribed to our you. YouTube channel, please deal. Thanks. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the

Starting point is 00:32:46 news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 858 | The Disturbing Origins of Adderall | Guest: Dr. Roger McFillin (Part Two)

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