Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 859 | Why You Can't Be a Gay Christian | Guest: Dr. Christopher Yuan

Episode Date: August 21, 2023

Today we're joined by author, pastor, and Bible professor Dr. Christopher Yuan to discuss his incredible testimony and new video curriculum "The Holy Sexuality Project." We start off with his story of transformation from an agnostic gay man to a redeemed Bible professor. Not only did God turn his unbelief into belief right from a prison, but God also freed him from the bondage of drugs and promiscuity. Can you be a Christian and practice homosexuality at the same time? We answer this question and dive into why the biblical model for marriage is so important. Then, Dr. Yuan breaks down "The Holy Sexuality Project" and why it’s so important to talk with our kids about biblical sexuality in appropriate ways.  --- Timecodes: (02:05) Dr. Yuan's story (16:37) Turning to drugs (22:28) Reaction to parents becoming Christian (33:32) Coming to Christ (43:49) Can you be a Christian and practice homosexuality? (51:29) Homosexuality & marriage (01:09:00) Holy Sexuality Project --- Today's Sponsors: Naturally It's Clean — visit https://naturallyitsclean.com/allie and use promo code "ALLIE" to receive 15% off your order. If you are an Amazon shopper you can visit https://amzn.to/3IyjFUJ, but the promo code discount is only valid on their direct website at www.naturallyitsclean.com/Allie. Carly Jean Los Angeles — use promo code 'ALLIEB' to save 25% off your first order at CarlyJeanLosAngeles.com! Patriot Mobile — go to PatriotMobile.com/ALLIE or call 878-PATRIOT and use promo code 'ALLIE' to get free activation! Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage — Focus on the Family's new marriage podcast is a voice you can trust. Dr. Greg and Erin Smalley host the show each episode dives into something really relevant, like communication, intimacy, money issues, or daily stress. You can find Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage on Apple, Spotify or your favorite listening source. --- Relevant Episodes: Ep 14 | Holy Sexuality with Dr. Christopher Yuan https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/relatable-with-allie-beth-stuckey/id1359249098?i=1000413686629 --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day Show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.

Dr. Christopher Yuan is a speaker, an author of several books, including Holy Sexuality and the Gospel, Sex, Desire and Relationships, shaped by God's grand story. He is also a Bible professor. He has created a new curriculum called the Holy Sexuality Project. that offers so much clarity, so many answers about what God's word actually says about who we are in Christ, our identity, our sexuality, our desires, our gender. He is an amazing testimony of being a drug dealer who went to prison, who was deeply involved in the gay community as a homosexual man, and then came to Christ through an incredibly powerful turn of events. And he's going to share a lot of his story here today. And then we're going

to talk about, like, what is the truth about all of these things? What is the call to die to self? What does it look like to be made a new creation that actually includes our sexual desires and our understanding of our bodies and gender? You're going to be so encouraged by his testimony and by this discussion. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to good ranchers.com, use code Alley at check out that's good ranchers.com code Alley. Dr. Yuan, thanks so much for joining us again. You were one of my first interviews ever on Relatable 2018, 2019. And here you are again. Thanks so much for me back. I'm so honored. I'm so honored. Great to see you. Yes, good to see you too. Well, a lot has happened over the past few years.

We were just talking before the camera started rolling, how busy you are. Before we get into the curriculum that you have helped develop, tell us a little bit for those who may not know who you are. What's your story is, why you are authoring this curriculum. Well, it's not something that I just studied or that I've read about and done research on. It's actually part of my own personal story. I wasn't raised in a Christian home. I wrestled with my sexuality from a young age. I didn't come out publicly with it until my.

early 20s, which of course today is much later than with the average age, which kids are dealing with it. I mean, unfortunately, I think it doesn't need to be pushed so hard with kids. But it wasn't until my early 20s. I'm originally from Chicago. And I was living in Louisville, Kentucky at that time, going to Dunnell School. I came out. And through that crisis, my mother came to faith. And then my father did as well.

I went the total opposite direction, wanted nothing to do with Christianity. Unfortunately, I started doing drugs, started selling drugs while in Dumbull School. I was expelled from Dumbled School just three months before I was received my doctorate. I moved from Louisville to Atlanta. And there I kept doing what I knew how to do best, which is if you're, if you don't have Christ, you know, you're just going to live in the world and have fun, be happy. And I was not only selling drugs and partying, but I also was supplying drugs. And this whole time my parents didn't know that I was doing drugs, but they knew that I needed no Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. They tried to reach out to me.

And they came to visit me one time in Atlanta, kicked them out. And here's the funny thing, Allie. We hear the narrative today. Christian parents cannot, are unable to love their gay children. They have to throw the Bible away or believe in so-called progressive Christianity to love their gay children. I had the exact opposite experience. My parents were not Christian. They couldn't find in themselves to love me.

It wasn't until they became followers of Jesus Christ. They knew they could do nothing other than they had to love me as God loved them while they were sinners, while they were enemies, while they were still weak. And so they loved me. I kicked them out. My dad gave me his Bible. I threw in the trash can. And my parents just knew I was hopeless. But they committed not to focus upon hopelessness, but upon the promises of God.

My mom got like over 100 prayer warriors to intercede on my behalf from church for Bible study fellowship. She prayed a bold prayer, which is for a mother, oh, bold prayer, do whatever it takes, God, whatever it takes. She fasted every Monday for seven years, even fasted 39 days. And she prayed for a miracle. That miracle came with my arrest. I found myself in jail. And it was in jail that God began to reveal himself to me. I found a Bible in the trash can of all things.

I began reading it and it began to convict me. I mean, I had put my identity solely in my sexuality and God was telling me, your identity is not in anything else other than Jesus Christ. So it was through this transformation in prison. I needed to be away from the world, away from the gay community. And it was me, God, the Holy Spirit, and the Word of God. and it began to convict me, transform me. I found out I was HIV positive, but it was kind of through these things of putting me just

a rock bottom that I knew I could do nothing else but to look up. So through that, I came to Christ in prison. I was also called to ministry in prison. I got out of prison, went to Bible college, so I had to go back to since I didn't get my doctorate and I actually never got my bachelor's before going to dental school. So I went back to Bible College, went to seminary, and then wrote a book with my mother called Out of Our Country. And through that, I introduced this concept of holy sexuality. And I wrote that as a book.

It was named 2020 Book of the Year for Social Issues by Outreach Magazine. And that is what then turned into this video series. Wow, that was an amazing summary. And gosh, I encourage people to read your books. You can go back and listen to that 2018, 2019 interview for some more details on your story, too. but I am curious because I know that there are so many parents who are listening to this. There are so many moms listening to this who they have a prodigal child. They have a child maybe who struggles with different sexuality identity issues or they've

just rejected the faith. And they want to know more about that story, what your parents did. So when your parents found out that you were gay or you told them that you were, were they Christians at that time, did you say? They were not. And how did you say that they reacted? You know, I was born in 1970. So this is the early 80s in my teenage years.

That was kind of initially when they had found out. And I didn't even say this, but I was 16 years old and there was an older man. And of course, I did seek this out with an older man. My mother found out. And we just need to call it what it is statutory rape illegal. even if I was willing. It's still statutory rape. And this man was in his 30s.

But so that was my mom, you know, even though she wasn't a Christian then, I think God just revealed it to her and she found out. And it was not that did not fit into her plan as, you know, Chinese were very family oriented. more traditional in values, moral values. So that was not acceptable. And in the 80s, early 80s, that was, you know, in the early 80s, that was when biblical sexuality was actually accepted. Now today, which is so unfortunate, our children are being raised in a time where they never knew a time where biblical sexuality was actually accepted, but rather it's stigmatized.

And so there's a flip of narratives now. But yeah, my parents were not Christian at that time. And from an early age, because you said that you were struggling with your sexuality from an early age. So that means that you had attraction to males from, I guess, the kind of time that you can remember as an early teen preteen. But there was something in you that told you, this is, I mean, this is different. This is not something I want to be public about. This is not something I'm proud of. So tell us a little bit about rest.

Celine with that when you were young. Yeah, you know, I think certainly we have, you know, I mentioned where it was the culture, but I don't want to fall into the trap that somehow morality or the misunderstanding or the lie, that morality is shaped by culture. Romans 1 tells us that we all have God put in us conviction and a conscience to know right. and wrong. And it was, and I would say that is more of the issue that we all know that. The unfortunate thing that Paul talks about in Romans 1 is we suppress it. We actively suppressed it. And so even though from a young age, I knew that something was not right. And I knew that

even though I wasn't raised in the church, this was what we would call in theology, general revelation given to is this is common grace. And the reality is we all have a conscience that God put in us in our minds and our hearts to know what is right or wrong. But the problem is we then just suppress it. And I did that. In my early 10 years when I was kind of dealing with myself, I didn't tell anyone there was this stigma and it was in my conscience saying this is not right. But as I got older and as I began acting on my sin, I thought, man, this feels good. Right. I mean, sin feels good, unfortunately, or else it wouldn't be a struggle. And I began justifying it. Well, what's, you know, I'm not hurting anyone. That is probably the number one weapon used by the enemy.

You're not hurting anyone. And so I just, it just went from there. And if we could use that, you're not hurting anyone. Why is drugs then wrong? I'm not hurting anyone. Why not smoke a joint? Why not, you know, shoot up with heroin? I'm not really hurting anyone in, you know, I'm making my, this is my own body. These are all lies from the enemy that then justify, that suppresses the truth that this is not, this is not only, you know, against my conscience and against what society is saying at that time, but this is against God's moral, holy good law, ground in not just natural law, but in God's natural law, which is from the beginning in creation.

Yeah, and then as you said that you started acting on it. Obviously, you had that situation where your mom found out that you had been with an older man. And so that didn't stop you, though, obviously from kind of pursuing male relationships. It just made it even more, I'm guessing, secretive and maybe kind of covered with shame. But then when you moved out of the house, is that when you were like, okay, this is going to be my true identity. This is going to be really what I pursue openly. You know, initially, so this was 88, 89. That was, I graduated from high school in 88. 86 was when I was 16 years old. But even so after I was 16, I thought, okay, we're going to. And we went even through some crazy counseling. You know, this is some. Interesting.

My mom was so desperate and it was not reparative therapy. It was something even, it was really crazy Scientology. all things. Wow. So she was just looking for something to quote unquote fix you. She was desperately just grabbing. Okay, got it. Not a Christian. Right. And the reason to give a little backstory on why Scientology, Scientology was actually moving into kind of their evangelism to use business and they were trying to get businesses. My dad was a dentist and they were thinking, you know, very secular. We're going to grow our business. That was one thing that was, anyway, They were, Scientology had like a business aspect.

So they were in that right at that time. And so my mom thought, oh, maybe they could help with this. And so we actually went to San Francisco there or whatever, headquarters office and went through all there holding the metal cans. And it was, it was wacky. Wow. But again, it just showed. It was really difficult for you, too. Just I can't imagine how hard that was to go through something like that.

Yeah. Well, I mean, in essence, I also, because it was my conscience that saying this is not right. So maybe I'd be able to, this is going to help me to kind of, you know, solve this or resolve this. I mean, we sat in a sauna for hours and sweating it. It was just all this crazy stuff, you know, that the Scientologists do. And sucking your money. It was just very, very costly. But it comes to the point that my mom was desperate. And she wanted to fix. the situation. You know, I don't know, Al, if you ever heard of the term tiger mom. Yeah. Asian moms have, have their, they're very, it's kind of like mama bears in a sense. But it's a Chinese version, I guess, of mama bears. These are tigers that are going to protect their children and fix things. And my mom wanted to fix this situation.

So she was looking for everything. So actually from when I was 16 to 18 in high school after that, I was like, okay, we've fixed this. We've tackled this. Well, the problem is this is not just merely a developmental psychological problem. This is a sin nature issue, which we can't on human effort solve that, that we always are going to deal with it. So even though I thought I had taken care of it, there was still these temptations that I had that were unchosen. I didn't want these just as all of us. We all have unchosen sinful temptations that God calls us to resist by the power of the Holy Spirit.

But we're not called to be in bondage to this. So because I had no way to understand temptations and our sin nature, they kind of just festered underneath until I was 18 and then 19. And it was then that I started acting out when I was in college a little bit. I went to the Marine Corps. but just keeping this underneath. And that's never a good way to deal with things, just to suppress it. You know, whether, you know, you're suppressing these desires and these temptations. And so it wasn't until my early 20s when I was 22 that then when I moved to Louisville,

that I just came out. Hey, this is Steve Daste. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular.

This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this Steve Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. And when and why did you turn to drugs? Did that have to do with the sexual life that you had chosen to? Yeah, that's a good question. And, you know, a lot of times people, when they hear my story, they think, you know,

I'm saying all gay men do drugs, you know, obviously not. There are, you know, lots of people in general who do drugs. However, I do see that there's a correlation in that when you begin suppressing God, truth, then and morality, there is then no morality. And that's exactly kind of the line of thinking. It's not a causation, but there's definitely a correlation that I thought, well, you know, what's wrong about having sex with a man? I'm not hurting anyone. And then I began justifying that same logic. And I thought, well, this is just a pill. I started with ecstasy. It seems very innocuous. Like is it very hard. It's we all take aspirins right. I mean, you know, Allie, you take

aspirin. You take Tylenol. I mean, not now. But you know, it's we're we it's it's so easy to begin justifying sin. We never have to go looking for it. So that's where it started with just ecstasy. I thought I'm not putting anything up my nose. I'm not shooting anything in my arms with needles. And it's just a very and I'm just doing it once a week. Well, guess what happens? once a week begins twice a week. Oh, it's just on weekends, right? We always justifying it. And so as much as people activists, gay activists like to say,

there's no correlation or there's no causation. We all know, you know, people in the drug world, if you want to find good drugs, you go to the gay community. That was just known. good ecstasy, good, you know, just the list goes down. And people, why do people who do the club drugs go to the gay clubs? Because that's where you find the good high quality drugs. So there's definitely a correlation.

There's not, I wouldn't say a causation, but it's the line of thinking where you degrade and suppress truth and God's moral law that's in our heart. hearts that's in our conscience, Romans 1, then anything goes. This is where we get you do you. You do you is not unique to our time now. Go to first century realm. We're just repeating history, unfortunately. You do you is from the playbook from first century realm. Yep. And I mean, it kind of goes all the way back to the garden too. That's right. Exactly. Judges. Yes. Chances three. And you said your parents didn't know that this was happening, but you got kicked out of Tintel school because of your drug addiction and selling drugs, right?

Yes. Yep. And then, yeah, they didn't know the extent they, you know, I had said that I was doing drugs, but they didn't know that I was selling drugs. But they knew they're like, okay, our son, he's not working, but he's traveling all over the. place so they knew something nefarious was definitely going on they just didn't know what and and ali you mentioned you know you have most likely people watching right now mothers of prodigals and what i always want to remind mothers of prodigals is whatever situation your child is going through whether it's drugs like me or whether it's you know identifying the wrong identity with their

sexuality or their so-called gender or what anything it is, as glaring of a problem as that is, that actually is not their biggest problem. Their biggest problem is their need to know and follow Jesus. How can we go and sin no more if we don't know Jesus Christ? How can we be set free from our sin, the bondage of sin? God has provided the solution for the bondage. of sin and that is life in Christ. That doesn't mean that you're going to be struggle free, but that means we'll no longer be in bondage. You will still be tempted. Jesus was tempted, but you're no longer where you like, you have no other option than to give into temptations. And that's the joy that we have. And parents need to remember that because why does that matter?

Because now we know that we're going to be praying for the right thing. If your child stops doing drug right now, if your child gets out of prison, And right now, and they don't know Christ, they're still in prison and bondage. They're not for free. And I'm so glad that my mom and dad knew that that was the most important thing. Yes, they didn't know that I was doing drugs or even selling drugs. I mean, I was supplying drugs to dealers in over a dozen states. You know, this is what happens.

Satan knows to use people who are gifted. I had tons of experience in the business world, working in my dad's dental office. God had given me a mind where I'd gone to school and college and graduate school. And the enemy was using that, not for good, but using that for evil. And I was, you know, immediately I was excelling before all the other drug dealers because I had done business. I was treating this like a business, an illegal business. And so I had grown and grown. and that was not my biggest problem.

My biggest problem was I needed to know and surrender my whole life to Jesus Christ. And my parents prayed for that. My parents enlisted others to pray for that as well. And what was your feeling when you found out that your parents had become Christians and not just nominal Christians, but they were the praying, the fasting, the Bible studying, kinds of Christians. And you had been raised in a secular home where, you know, your parents just tried to fix you even through Scientology, you had no idea really of a Christian worldview.

What was your reaction to that? I thought they lost their mind. You did. I just thought, you know, but I will have to say they were on the brink of a divorce. You know, my mom and dad came to the United States. They were, they had nothing. They were broke. My father only had $50 in his pocket.

Wow. And when did they come? curious. When did they come to the United States? My father came in 1963 and my mother came a year after that. And then they got married in 1965. Quite the time in China. What's that? I said quite the time in China. I mean, you can see why they came. Well, they were actually fortunately, some of the fortunate ones that fled Taiwan, which is insane. I mean, we're, you know, as much as people are trying to glorify communism, my parents, my grandparents, fled for their lives from communism. We don't want that.

We don't want socialism. We don't want communism. That's why my parents came here. There's no other country where you can go one generation from zero money to my parents work their tails off pursuing the American dream and they achieved it. But this is the thing. They achieved it and thought they would be. happy. And, you know, they had the Mercedes, you know, two Mercedes. They had a really nice

house in a nice western suburb of Chicago. We were affluent. Again, I mean, we went from zero, zero money, $50 in my father's, and they worked hard. We did not rely on the government. We did not take handouts. They worked harder to get my dad, got his Ph.G. He got another doctorate. So he's, he has two doctors. I call them a paradox. Yeah. And they worked hard. My mom, and this is so important for why so I appreciate what you do, Allie. My mom, she went to the number one high school in Taiwan, every single one of her friends, as she continues to say, every single one of her friends has a doctorate or at least a master's. They were career woman. My mom came to the United States for her doctorate and she rebelled. You know how she rebelled?

she got married. Wow. All she wanted to do in life was not to get a PhD, but to be a good mom and a good wife. That is all, and that was rebellion in my, and why was it rebellion? Because my grandparents, they're like, you know, we're sending you off to another country to have a better life,

not to get married. That's, you have to be successful. You got to get your doctorate and do all that. all my mom wanted to do was to do what I believe is one of the most important jobs that we have today. And it's not that mothers, you're doing nothing. You're doing everything of being a mom. My mom, she would not give me and my brother to babysitters. She worked night shift while my dad, and she put my dad through two doctorates.

and she never had a babysitter because she took care of us. Then my dad would come home from school and then she would go to work. And she got paid minimum wage and worked her, you know, the eight-hour shift and then came home, slept. My dad will wake up in the morning. And my mom says that through my dad and mom said through those years, four years almost straight, they basically communicated through a notebook because they would be passing. But that's how important my mom knew the job of being a mother. We cannot farm it off to anyone. And when we do, why are we surprised that our kids, you know, are acting like the way they are. There is no more important job than being a

mother. And why are we surprised that the enemy is attacking the very so important job. And and role of motherhood. It is viewed to be, it's stigmatized. It is viewed to be unimportant. It is viewed to be. And then when we're complaining about the loss of this younger generation, it stems to not just fatherlessness, but also motherlessness. And so I just praise the Lord that my mom, even though she's extremely capable.

Like my father, even though he has two doctorates, we know the brains are with my mom. She has huge business sense, people, personnel, you know, communication skills and working with people. So when my brother and I were in junior high and high school during that time, actually, my dad went back to, you know, get his second doctorate, went to down. Because being a PhD in physical chemistry teaching, you know, that's hard to support your children and so all that.

But he became a dentist and he was 30. So he was older. But my mom, she took care of the dental office and made the dental office really grow, got a real estate. She has a very sharp business mind. So it wasn't that she became a mom because she was incapable or didn't have ability. She had the ability and used that all our abilities to pour into, again, how we're going to shape this younger generation if we're not shaping into the lives of our children? So you had, even though they weren't Christians, you had examples of parents who, at least when you were, at least when you were growing up, that they were unified in their goal to take care of you and your brother and to work really hard. And so you had a pretty traditional and good example of what a cohesive family looked like.

As you were, you know, coming out and saying this is what my sexuality is and this is what my identity is, did you ever think about, wow. I'm not ever going to be able to have what my parents had. Like, I'm never going to have that kind of structure that I benefited from growing up. Or was that not even a thought? Because you were so kind of deep into the community and selling drugs and things like that that you weren't really thinking about, you know, living in the suburbs with a family. Well, you know, this is in my early 20s. And when, as we all know, you know, when you're in your later teenage years, early 20s,

what we have going on so much are hormones and just our desires are raging. I think I probably went through puberty later in life. I mean, that's just an Asian thing. You know, and I hated looking when I was 18. I looked like I was 12 and I was 20. I look like I'm whatever 16. And now I'm claiming that. Yeah.

I'm 52 years old and I'm glad that I maybe don't look like other 52 years old. So I'm claiming that looking younger. But, you know, when you're 20, you don't want to look like you're 12 or 16. And so I do think that I matured a little later in life. So during that time, I mean, it was all about these desires and what other way to be happy. If there's no God, our happiness is fulfilling our desires. That's what the world is saying. You have a desire.

That's Oprahism. You know, that's kind of one of the religions of the land. And just you do you. You have a desire that that's your truth, not just you need to do it, but that's your truth. And that was even prevalent in the 80s and early 90s. So for me, it was, yeah, I mean, I think I would have liked to get married, have children live in the suburbs. But it was no longer, you know, with a woman, but now with a man, I could do that too, right? I mean, it's what you talk about a lot.

Well, you know, I can I could do this artificially. I could adopt or all these things, which, as we know, kids need a mother and a father. And it's distorting what is historic, not just historically, but biblically and God's morality of what families and motherhood and fatherhood look like. But with the world kind of giving these artificial ways, I thought I could still fulfill that. but ultimately it was what do I desire? What do I want? Putting myself and taking God off the throne and putting me on the throne. I often would say in my testimony, in my world, I had become God.

And isn't that the story of everyone in essence? We want to put ourselves on God's throne, unfortunately even as Christians. And yet there's only one God. There's only one Lord. There's only one king. and that's Jesus. And you're in prison, which I guess you met the dead end that comes from self-worship. It always leads where Satan tells you it never will.

And the same thing in the Garden of Eden. Did God really say, look, you can do this and be like God? You exchange the God of Scripture for the God of self. You think it's going to lead to ultimate fulfillment. You'll finally get to the pinnacle of satisfaction, whether it's, you know, financial success or relationships or just personal happiness, like you said, it always ends in some kind of destruction. But God used that destruction as a mercy. I think I remember the part of your testimony where you said you were laying on the cotton. You looked up and you saw a verse. Jeremiah 29-11,

for I know the plans I have for you, not to harm you, but to prosper you. You started reading the Bible. And I mean, we could go through all of that time and we don't have time to do all of that, but at what point, okay, you realized, wow, okay, this could be real. Your mom had been praying for you and you realized this issue, that you were a sinner and that that was your main problem. That was your core problem. It wasn't the drugs as you said. It wasn't the sexualities. You said it was that. That you were lost, that you were a sinner. But how long after that did you understand, okay, I cannot follow Christ and all of these desires that I have over here. all of these lusts, this identity that I've told myself, I am my sexuality.

How long did it take within your Christian walk to realize? Wow, these two things don't match up. This is the beauty of conversion stories. Yes. You know, they're not cookie cutter. My mother, when she came to faith, she was going to end her life. I mean, my parents were about to get a divorce. My brother was kind of doing his own thing.

I came out and I was like her last way of. hope. So she was going to end her life. And so on May 15th, 1993, she remembers that she was taking a train back from Chicago to Louisville to end her life and say goodbye to me and then end her life. And she got this little tract from a minister that we knew and it shared with her the gospel, which is amazing. Tracks, some tracks actually do work. Yeah. And so for her, it was just instantaneous. She knew from, she stepped on that train, dead in her sins and she came off that train alive in Christ. She knows it was one day.

For me, it was not one day. Like, and I think it's just because I'm so hardheaded. And it was in prison that it was this time. I needed, maybe it was, I necessarily needed it because it was, I had so many hardened layers to peel away that it was this time in prison of this, maybe the first year of God growing me. So when I saw that verse, Jeremiah 29, 11, I had always known there was a God coming back to like what we talked about.

Not only did God put in us a conscience, but he put in us the knowledge that there is a God. Unfortunately, again, we suppressed that. So I knew ever since I was a little kid that there was a God, but, you know, God made us in his own image. And then we returned the favor and we created God in our own image. So I had a concept of God, but I made him into my own likeness. I made him into this a you do you type of God. And that's not God. So I knew there was a God.

So when I saw that verse, I was like, oh, yeah. And then this is, you know, there is a God. I knew that. But I still was thinking this you do you. And it took this where God had to correct me and to and to rework, kind of do damage control, and to all I had kind of put these lies into my mind. of who I thought God was. And it took a year of that first year where it was me releasing all these things of my

false beliefs of who God was and who I was because I still, I had so many idols. You know, I, not just drugs. That was the most obvious. But it took that time of that first year where God began to convict me that this is an idol. You need to let it go. That was the drugs. You need to let go. of another idol is was just the party sing i thought okay i won't do drugs here again this is so funny

when i think about it you know justification i was like okay i won't do the drugs but i love music you know and that was kind of the the crazy kind of the trance music which i don't know i mean i think there has to be research out there that that trans dance music needs to just make you dumber it is it's classical music will make you smarter that type of music and others i'm not going to name the others we'll just i think will just make you dumber And so I really, really thought that I could not do drugs, but, you know, still kind of go out to the clubs and have fun. You know, you hang out with dogs. Guess what you're going to catch, fleas.

And God need to convict me. You know, I need to let that idle go. And there's a lot of other things in life. And I went through this in my first book. I asked myself, what is it that I feel like I can't live without? that's an idol and it was so many things that I felt like I couldn't live without and that last one that God really needed to deal with me was my sexuality and my sexual identity so I would say and so interesting I shared this with a chaplain I was not open about my sexuality because I saw

others who had been open and they were just super flamboyant and that was not me that was not all gay men are flamboyant some are but I was not most of my friends are, were, when you go to the checkout counter and you see all those men's fitness magazines, those buff men, they're all gay. I knew many of them. I sold drugs to them, which is so funny when I see these men who don't struggle with saying such attractions, looking and flipping through this. And I'm thinking, you're just looking at a magazine of gay men.

You know, it's all vanity. And so that was my world. But, you know, there's when I was, you know, being convicted of this and during this time, I knew I need to let go of this idol. And this idol of this identity, this is who I am, was the last longest part. This chaplain gave me this book. He said this, you know, the Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality. And everything inside of me wanted to just seize that book. The chaplain told you the Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality.

Even gave me a book. Wow. I just look back on my story and I count it. There's so many miracles and I count that as one miracle. There are, according to just logic, everything pointed inside of me and all logic outside, I should have just embraced that and ran with it. I spent time reading it and praise the Lord that as I read that book, I had that book in one hand and the Word of God and the other.

And everything inside of me wanted to affirm that human written book. But I know now, I look back now, it was the Holy Spirit convicting me that it was just distorting so clearly. If I had just read that book without the Bible open with it, I don't, I think I would have gone with that. I'll be like, oh yeah, yes, yes, yes. But as I, as this author mentioned Romans 1, I would go back and I would read the Word of God. And it was just, I was like, that's not what this author is claiming. That's just plain reading of scripture. That's the Holy Spirit convicted me. I couldn't get through that book and I gave it back to the chaplain. So I turned to the Bible alone, going through every verse. The chaplain was like, oh, the Bible doesn't condemn it.

So I was like, well, let me see where the Bible would actually bless it. Does any verse actually affirm this? I went through every verse, every chapter, every page looking for justification. You wanted to find it. And I couldn't find it. Exactly. I wanted everything inside of me and I couldn't find it. You know, I think that's one of the hardest things today, not just for people who are struggling with their sexuality, but for everyone else who is told, well, the Bible really doesn't condemn it.

Jesus never talked about homosexuality, and you hear story after story. I mean, I see this all the time, and it's usually appeals to women in my demographic. And it's these testimonies, so-called, of people who suppressed their sexuality, their whole lives. They were, typically, they were raised in the evangelical church. And so their testimony is one of realizing that they can reconcile being a Christian with being gay or being transgender or being non-binary. And they finally had this revelation. that God just wants them to be who they are. That's typically the language that they use. And then they cast everyone else who disagrees with that is these like kind of antiquated

bigots. You talked about Oprahism. There's a clip that goes around every so often from decades ago where a young woman in the audience is saying to Oprah, you know, this is against God's design. You say that you're a Christian and how can you affirm this? And Oprah basically says, look, I believe that, you know, God is love and God has big enough that he can accept all kinds of people. That is the revelation of the day. That is the story of the day. And it sounds really good. No one wants to be called a bigot. No one wants to be

called a phob. No one wants to be seen as narrow-minded. No one wants to be seen as legalistic or a Pharisee or overly religious. And Jesus is castes on the side of the oppressed and the marginalized and the misunderstood that must include LGBTQ people. You don't want to be on the other side of that. And so that is the story. That is the emotional manipulation. I call it like empathy extortion that I think a lot of Christians undergo and deal with. And it is tough. It is tough to stand against that and to be told constantly you are hateful if you don't accept that. So tell us about that for like is it possible you and I know, but is it possible to be be a practicing gay person, a practicing transgender whatever person, and follow Christ.

Well, you know, just like you said, the, I need to be myself. I'm finally able to be myself, embrace who I am, and be happy. And, you know, since the time I've come to know Christ, which is over 20 years, which I still feel like I'm a brand new Christian. I have searched the pages of scripture, looking for where God calls us to be yourself, to embrace who you are. It's not there.

Rather, Jesus is calling every Christian, not just people like myself who've come from that past. He's calling every Christian to do what? Deny himself, deny herself. Pick up your cross and follow me. That's so key. And here's where I think Christians and people who hold to a biblical view of sexuality, what I think, where we understand this is sinful behavior, what we sometimes don't fully grasp when we're trying to understand where the world is, when we're trying to understand where our loved ones are coming from who have rejected Christianity, historic biblical Christianity, and now embracing themselves and embracing their sexuality. and embracing their sexuality or gender,

it's this. The world has conflated sexuality with personhood, that we treat our desires to be who we are. The term gay, straight, by, heterosexual, homosexual, don't define people. This is so important. The term gay, straight by,

heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, don't define people. They define our desires. They define our behaviors. They define our attractions. No logic can ever say that a desire is a person, even if a desire is strong or unchosen. So there's no gay people.

There's gay desires. There's no lesbian women. It's lesbian relationships. It's we have to, a relationship is not equivalent to a person, nor is an action equivalent to our self or our essence. And this is where, this is why people said, oh, you're so hateful or they see this as offensive. Even Oprah, like you say, oh, I view a God who accepts all people. God accepts people.

He does not accept sin. And when, see, as a Christian now. Now, I can hate my sin without hating myself. Before I knew Christ, I could not do that. I could not hate my sin without hating myself because I equated my sexual desires and my sexual behaviors with who I was. And these were unchosen temptations and enduring and strong struggles. but regardless of whether how strong or unchosen an attraction is,

it never should be who we are. So should a person, can a person be gay and Christian? Can a person be lesbian and Christian? Let's actually broaden that question out. Can a person be an adulterist Christian? Can a person be a lying Christian? I'm not talking about that they struggle with it. I'm not talking about, for example, even like King David,

Was he committing adultery? Absolutely. Was he a murder? Absolutely. But when time came and he was confronted with his sin, he repented. What we're talking about is continuous unrepentanted sin. So can a person be in continuous unrepentantant sin as a fornicator or as a gossiper as a liar? No.

And maybe if so, it shouldn't be for long because the Holy Spirit. is to convict us of sin as scripture teaches us. And if we see a person in continuous unrepentant sin, that's evidence that the Holy Spirit isn't abiding in this person, and this person actually isn't truly saved. So none of us should identify with our sin. We have Christians today who are trying to justify and say, well, no, I'm just gay.

It's okay to use these terms. we're just quibbling over words. It's not. This is quibbling over the blood of Jesus. This is quibbling over, does the blood of Jesus cover just our actions, as some so-called gay-selebrate Christians are trying to say, or does the blood of Jesus actually transform the whole person

so that the old is gone, the new is come? People who continue to use this terminology of their old dead man aren't living in their new self in Christ. This is not just quibbling over words. This is quibbling over the blood of Jesus. And it's so freeing. It really is so liberating to separate your desires from your identity. And for some reason, I think when it's sexual desires, it's more difficult to do.

People understand that when you maybe have a desire to binge drink or have a desire to do drugs. Most people don't put that as their identity. they don't want to. They don't say, well, I am an alcoholic and I can't change. Say this is something that I do that I do. This is something I'm addicted to. And so they do separate it. But when it comes to sexuality, it's different and it's more difficult because it's not just dealing with the body. It's not just a physical desire. It can also turn into an emotional desire and even like a spiritual mingling. There is something different about the sexual act than, you know, drinking. too much liquor or taking drugs. There is a relationship there. Even with hookups, there's something happening in your heart and your soul and your mind. And I think that's why it's difficult to separate identity and desire when it comes

to your sexuality because God designed sex. He designed our bodies to not be these like separate things. Like this is just your body. This is what it does. This is your mind and this is your heart and this is what it does. these things are intermingled. And so I can see why it's difficult for someone to detach their sexual desires from their identity because there's so much wrapped up in that.

Yeah, there's only one thing that God uses this metaphor or, you know, talking about one flesh. And one flesh is more than a metaphor because it is reality. One flesh also is more than just physical. There is a physical and non-physical union of two people together. The sex act is also spiritual. It involves our soul as well. This is why when we have these serial relationships going from one to another, like you were saying, the hookups, why is that so detrimental to us emotionally and psychologically?

Because it's not just physical. There is this non-physical that is even more than just emotional. and psychological, but even a spiritual coming together. Why are all the pagan religions that we know of that sex is involved in that? Because there's something much, much more than what we see, this physical union of two people coming together that it does point to, as actually Paul communicates in Ephesians 5, that the union of husband and wife is actually pointing to a spiritual reality. and what Paul talks about the mystery in Greek, it's the Mysterian, and that mystery is the beautiful union on the last day of Christ in the church.

So actually, all marriages are supposed to point to that reality. And that's a good reminder for couples, husbands and wives, especially Christian ones, who know God's word, that our marriages should point to a spiritual reality. And that is the beauty of Christ in the church. And I talk about these things in my video series, especially lesson seven. That's kind of the pinnacle, actually, of this series where I'm talking about the beauty of marriage and also how it points to the on the last day, that reality of all marriages on earth are going to actually be fulfilled in the reality of that on the last day, all these marriages, are just a shadow of the eternal reality of Christ in the church.

My father went home to be with the Lord about a year ago. My mom is now single, a widow, not by choice. Their marriage has been fulfilled. On the last day, Jesus says Matthew chapter 22 that there's not going to be any marriage in heaven. And I know that might sound dreary or I don't know, might sound bad, But there's nothing bad about that. The beauty is that all of us that are the elect, all of us that are called to Christ

are going to be corporately wed to the Lamb of God. That is what marriage is pointing to. So there is definitely this spiritual reality of the beauty of marriages on earth, pointing to that spiritual reality. And sex is definitely not just a physical union of, merely a physical union of two people coming together. but there is as it meant to be of one flesh of husband and wife one man one woman for life coming together physically emotionally psychologically and spiritually and that is the beauty of marriage

and so when we distort it it's a distortion of so many things and also when this is what's so beautiful and fascinating and a mystery that Jesus, when he was questioned about divorce in Matthew 19 in Mark chapter 10, which by the way, I believe, is the strongest apologetic for why marriage is between a man and a woman. You mentioned the myth. And again, in my video series, I dispel four myths. And one of those myths is Jesus' silence. But Jesus, when he talks about marriage, because he was questioned by the Pharisees about whether divorce is okay. This is Matthew 19 in Mark chapter 10. He gives an answer.

And Jesus, who's never constrained by the questioner, in other words, just because they ask about divorce, Jesus is going to answer not only that question, but the broader question. And he answers it by going back, not to the law, but goes even before the law, which is Genesis. And he goes to Genesis 1 and Genesis 2, where he says, the creator made the male and female,

then the two shall become one. one flesh, what God has put together, let man not separate. So he was not only refuting their distortion of divorce, that divorce is wrong because what God has put together, let man not separate. But he also adds that God made them male and female and the two shall become one flesh. He didn't say any two. He wanted to make sure that they knew that it was one man, one woman, and God, Jesus, God knew that we would be struggling with that, with that definition of marriage and put that

right there in the first century and answered it and told us he was not only schooling the Pharisees on divorce, he was also schooling them on the definition of marriage. So if we have an issue with what is marriage, whether it could be with all, you know, all people or whether it's between a man and woman, this is having an issue with Jesus and we need to take that up with him. Yes, and we usually use an alliteration to talk about this because, and you brought up such a poignant point, too, in your own testimony, it's an amazing, I mean, testament to the Holy Spirit, because this is only wisdom that can be given from God that when you are looking at that book that the chaplain gave you, that affirmed homosexuality in Christianity, and then the Bible,

that you are not just looking for the specific places where the Bible said this is wrong, but you are also looking for God to bless it. And that is an argument that I hear a lot from so-called affirming Christians saying, well, you know, Jesus didn't specifically ever say, do not be gay or do not be transgender or whatever. There are so many logical problems, I think, with that argument. But we don't, as Christians, we don't look to the Bible and say, well, not only what does God tell me not to do, although the Bible does explicitly condemn homosexuality multiple

times. But also, what does God say glorifies him? What does God say pleases him? That is our posture. So we often say that the definition of marriage is between a man and a woman is rooted in creation. It's reiterated throughout scripture. It's repeated by Jesus himself, as you said in Matthew 19. It is representative of the gospel, which you just laid out so beautifully as we read in Ephesians 5. And therefore, it is representative of Christ in the church. And then it's therefore reflective of the gospel. I think people a lot of they put aside this kind of LGBTQ issue, if you well, as peripheral. It's not really that important. You can get everything right and not really, you know, not really know where you stand or, you know, be tolerant of the idea that you can be actively gay and Christian at the same time.

But really, like, when you look at the definition of marriage, as you just said, was defined by Jesus so clearly in Matthew 19 and Jesus being God also created it that way. And then Ephesians 5, Like, we see that that marriage supper is not gender neutral. It is a bride and a bride groom. It is a bride and a bride groom. And we're told that the earthly relationship, as the husband is the head of the wife, loving his wife as Christ loved the church. And the wife respecting her husband, submitting to her husband as to the Lord, we see that there is gospel, spiritual, eternal significance to the definition of marriage that. the relationship between two men or two women simply cannot fulfill because there isn't that

bride bridegroom dynamic. There isn't a reflection of that so-called marriage in eternity. And so it's not just about Romans 1. It's not just about Leviticus. It's not just about 1st Corinthians 6. It's also about Genesis 1. It's also about Revelation 22. It's also about everything in between that, and I think that's also a reason that when people start waffling or wavering when it comes to sexuality and stuff, typically you see eventually they forsake the fundamentals. They forsake John 146, that Jesus is the only way truth in life and that no one can come to the father except through him. Of course, because they are actually rejecting part of the gospel when they start rejecting

the definition of marriage. It's much more than just one or two verses. Yeah, when we tried so hard to, you know, Jesus didn't say, I mean, Jesus didn't say anything about incest, then let's use the same logic that he's okay with insis. He didn't say anything about bestiality. Then he's okay with that. Yeah. But, you know, when Jesus goes back to Genesis, the Pharisees were expecting him to then, you know,

to talk about the law, the law of Moses. He goes back to Genesis. And he quotes from Genesis 224, which is the two shall become one flesh. but he also quotes from Genesis 127. And what Christians, the people in the first century, they knew this, that that verse that Jesus just quoted is, even though they didn't have verses back then, but that's the verse about the image of God. And so when we talk about this distortion of marriage and you listed all those really good

things that's, you know, it's not only distorting Genesis, it's not only destroying this, not only distorting Jesus' own words, but Jesus was connecting marriage. with actually this image of God verse. So that is what makes it even more. We need to add another reason that it actually is also distorting God's image. As marriage and male and female has this correlation, clear correlation,

that Jesus is making himself that's pointed to human beings created in the image of God. that there's this inseparable link of correlation that we have there. So when we distort it, you know, it's not only pointing to the beginning, but pointing to the end. Just like how you said, it's this mystery of Christ in the church. We don't see that the church is married to the church. We don't see that Christ is married to himself. We see that Christ is married to the church, which is not only talking about,

what male and female is as that's reflecting to that eternal reality. But it's even talking about our roles. And this is where it gets really controversial. You know, Jesus is Lord. The church is under Christ. Doesn't mean that we are, you know, invaluable. Doesn't mean that that's, but that is what, you know, that reality. And in the same way, that's the beauty of how things work.

Now, of course, when we see that reflected on earth in humanity, we love to distort that. We are just human beings. And there are a lot of men that are not godly, servant-loving men like Christ or husbands, that are loving as husbands are called to love. How? As Christ love the church, which is what? Domineering? No, which is oppressive?

No. You know, Christ love the church. How? by laying his life down for her. I got to admit, to me, that's the harder calling. You know, to lay your life down for your wife. Yeah. I'm, and I want to be clear, I'm a single man.

I am open to getting married because I believe that God is bigger than my desire. When people say, I could never get married, people who have my past, who have seen such attraction, they say, no, I could never marry, I could never get married to the opposite sex. I feel like do they not believe that God raised Lazarus from the dead? I believe that. You know, if he can do that, this little thing of the desires that I have that might seem so overwhelming for me ain't a thing for the God that we believe that can do anything. So, you know, I'm open to that. And we should, you know, view that.

But this beauty of marriage is bound up in, you know, image of God. and when we distort it, it's pointing away from what God intended and that reality of how God created us, not only Jesus and the bride, but also how we are created to be as men and women that are distinct, not only biologically, physiologically, genetically, genetically, but even in the beautiful roles that God has called us to do. And I'm open to that option, whatever God has for me. My life is kind of like this, an open hand. God, have your way with me.

Right now, I'm a single man. I'm open to getting typically married. God, you need to do that miracle, and I know you're able. But if that ever happens, I know my role, that I need to love my wife as Christ love the church. And that's going to be hard. Lay my life down for her. That's not easy. But that's what God is communicating.

There's so many things that we see what marriage represents, not that it's just male or female, but also the beautiful role that God has called us, that God has put in our DNA, if you will, of how we are created different, beautifully different, and separate. And how beautiful is it that we are all as Christians promised marriage one day, that we are all going to be like given new selves. There's going to be a resurrection of the body. So for people who have either in the past committed sexual sin, which most people have in some regard,

or who have struggled with sexuality, people who have tried to transition their bodies and deal with the scars that come from that. Guess what? Like one day none of us are going to have scars anymore. One day we're all going to be healed. One day we're all going to get to enjoy the marriage. feast. And this is just, I mean, this is just a shadow. Any kind of marriage or satisfaction here

on earth is a shadow of what we all get to enjoy together one day with Christ. Let's talk about your, let's talk about your sexuality project, the Holy Sexuality Project, which I'm so incredibly thankful for. If there's anything that the church needs today, it is clarity. There's so much confusion and the name of empathy and the name of social justice and the name of love, very often Christians are just scared to say what the Bible says about these controversial subjects. So churches need help. And that is part of why you created this Holy Sexuality Project. So tell us about it.

Well, my book, Holy Sexuality in the Gospel, is named 2020 Book of the Year for Social Issues by Outreach Magazine. I wrote that because what I saw were two groups of books, books that were addressing, you know, that same-sex relationships are not God's will. and looking at the biblical passages, and then other books that were a bit more like practical theology. But I think there was a step that was completely missed. After we look at these biblical passages, which is important, and this applies to everything, and we need to do some theology. What does the breadth of scripture, all of scripture, not just these particular passages, but we need to develop a theology.

We need to look at systematic and biblical theology, if we're going to get technical with these terms, before we jump to the practice and application. Because if we try to do right without thinking right, we could end up doing wrong. So our orthodoxy must always precede our orthopraxy. So I wrote this book. It was essentially a theology of sexuality that I really see many people doing. And so it was not answering just what is our God's know because we can't build a Christian life just on God's know. but we need to know what is also God's yes.

So I wrote this book, Holy Sexuality in the Gospel, and Holy Sexuality is simply chastity and singleness or faithfulness in marriage. In other words, when you find yourself single, how are you going to live? You're going to be chased. If you marry and most people will marry, and that's biblical marriage, you need to be faithful to your spouse of the opposite sex. Well, I wrote that book for adults and I thought, we need something for teens.

And instead of doing a book or a curriculum, which I'd, bemoan the fact that many teens aren't reading enough. I thought, let's use a medium that kids are consuming voraciously right now, and that's video. So I created this video series, 12 lessons, 36 videos, 270 minutes of content, along with a parent guide and a grandparent guide. And what I believe is very unique and what makes this kind of a one of a kind is that this specifically was created for moms and dads. The majority of resources out there are often created for youth groups or maybe Christian schools.

And what we wanted to change the paradigm is that biblical sexuality must be primarily taught, not necessarily in the classroom or the youth group room, but in the living room, in the dining room. And we need to put this back as the primary place. Those are secondary in the Christian classroom or in the Christian classroom or in the living room. the youth group, that secondary shouldn't be primary, and yet there's really no resources out there. I mean, there's a few out there that focus upon kind of just abstinence, which I think is important,

but that's just God's know. Some of the newer ones seem very compassionate, but it's just this you do you. You know, whatever your gay loved one wants, just do it, whether it's, you know, go to their gay wedding or use their pronouns or all these different things. And I wanted to be clear that it's not just love. Love, but not just. We need to love people to Christ. If we just love, then that's you do you.

We're making love an end in itself, where love needs to be a means to an end that points to Christ. So I wrote this curriculum that is very intentionally Christocentric. You're probably familiar with Jen Hatmaker. She just came up with her own curriculum for LGBTQ plus parents of LGBTQ plus. children. And you know what the name of her curriculum is called? Me course. I thought, I'm so glad that actually she was honest about, she's not honest about the majority of things, but she's honest about what is the focus of this course. It is me centered, which should scare every Christian away. Now, of course, we have a lot of false Christians that are, you know,

promoting it and and buying it. This course, woe to me if the center of this course is human. I want to make it very intentionally that though we're talking about same-sex attractions and sexuality, I'm broadening it out to sexuality in general. The focus is Jesus Christ. Actually, I finish every single lesson with. Now, go and follow Jesus. Follow Jesus.

that's the main thing. And what does that look like? Because, you know, I'm sure, Ali, you know people there. Like, oh, I follow Jesus. Well, let me tell you how Jesus defines what it means. Deny yourself. Take up your cross and follow Jesus. That's what it means. And so that's the heart of this message. And so we start out with my testimony. We talk about false identity. Lesson two, we talk about true identity, image of God, and we're all fallen. Then I talk about attractions, desires, and temptations, and how those are different. And then I talk about, introduce this concept of holy sexuality, chastity and singless, faithfulness, and faithfulness in marriage. We have a whole lesson on singleness, lesson six, a whole lesson on marriage, what it is, what it is not. Then lesson eight, I answer this question that many young adults and teens are asking, what's the big deal? Why is God making such a big deal? He needs to get out of my bedroom. Lesson nine then goes over dispelling these myths.

Lesson 10 talks about sex, gender, and the image of God. then lesson 11 and 12 are practical. How do we help a Christian struggling with sexual temptations? How do we respond to someone else that is living in unrepentant sexual sin? And then lastly, what about me or the person watching the teenager or the parent that's struggling themselves? How do we follow Christ in the midst of trials, the temptations? And I focus on intimacy with Christ and intimacy with the body of Christ. So that's those 12 lessons along with the parent guide.

is also a guide for grandparents as well, this parent guide. We call it a parent slash grandparent guide because it's the parent and grandparent that should have the main responsibility. Look, silence is no longer an option. Just to say, I don't know where to start is not a good excuse anymore. I tell grandparents, all you need to know is how to press play. I think all of your listeners watching and watching, they know how to press play. And that's all you have to do.

Follow the instruction guide, the parent guide, and then press play and go through this. We can't wait another day. This actually was a $1.2 million project because there was high quality animation from animators, illustrators, artists from the Bible project. So very, very expensive. We fortunately didn't pay that much. But our donors wanted so much for every Christian family to have one at home that this should cost $200,300 per license for a two-year license. our donors are actually offering it for $20.

Many people don't even know what a steal that is, but that's how much we know the urgency and the need for parents, Christian parents, who want to have these healthy conversations at home. They're going to talk about it at church, but also do it at home because as much as a youth pastor might love your child, they're not going to be with your child throughout the week. they're not going to be them after high school, through college, through the young adult years. The parents will.

And so what we hope our goal is to empower grandparents, parents, preteens and teens, to understand, embrace, and celebrate biblical sexuality, but also to begin to have these biblical conversations around biblical sexuality and gender that's going to continue on, not just beyond these 12 lessons, but beyond into the conversation. college years into adult years, that's going to set them out, set our kids up for a life. And this really puts the parent and grandparent back in the driver's seat to do the job that God has ordained them to do. Yes, and amen.

Well, thank you so much. I really encourage everyone. Go to holy sexuality.com. We'll link it in the description of this episode too so people can just click on that easily. But gosh, parents, as you said, pastors, individual, if you're just trying to look for clarity yourself. But definitely like in these group settings too where you've got friends who are struggling with this. This could be a great conversation starter too with a friend who may not be on the same page as you, but she's trying to understand what's going on. Go to holy sexuality.com.

Gosh, this is so thorough. It answers so many questions. Give such a firm foundation for us understanding what love really looks like. Truth-filled love that is different than the secular empathy that we're fed today that just says affirm everyone's sin. So thank you so much, Christopher. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on and for creating this curriculum too. I really, really appreciate it. Thanks so much, Allie. We're really grateful to be on your show again. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day

and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people

who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV

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