Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 86 | Woke Christianity

Episode Date: March 15, 2019

I chat with Darrell Harrison of the "Just Thinking" podcast about the problems with the recent trend of woke Christianity. Copyright Blaze Media All Rights Reserved.

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Hello, Relatable listeners. Happy Friday. Our first relatable episode on a Friday. I hope that you guys have had a great week.

We are going to have a conversation today. I don't usually do conversations or interviews on relatable, but I'm going to start to do that on Friday. we're going to kind of alternate between that and probably Q&A. Sometimes the conversations will be with experts like it is today. And sometimes it'll be with my husband, my friends who are also trashed people, just like you and me. But today we are going to talk to a man named Daryl Harrison who hosts a podcast, who co-hosts a podcast with someone else called the Just Thinking podcast. And there are a theological podcast. they kind of approach culture from a reformed theological perspective,

and they really take on this social justice, Marxist stuff that we are seeing in the church really well. So today we are going to talk about this kind of woke theology trend that we're seeing within Christianity, where it came from, what it is and how we combat it, what our role is as Christians who know and believe in and love the Bible, what our role is in pushing back on that. So I'm really excited about that conversation. Hey, this is Steve Day.

If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity. over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this T-Day show right here on Blaze TV

or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Okay. Now that we've talked about that into our conversation with Daryl, Daryl, thank you so much for joining me. Absolutely, Ali. You are very welcome. Thanks for having me on. So I have listened to probably every episode of the Just Thinking podcast, and there are so many things that I want to. to talk to you about. But one thing that I know my audience is interested in and loves hearing more of in something that I really think that you are an expert on is the wokeness that has taken over or seems to be starting to take over parts of the evangelical community, even parts that previously we thought were theologically conservative. So I kind of, I want to hear from you where that came from

and why we kind of seem to be moving in that strange, progressive, woke direction? Yeah, well, you know, that's a great question, Ali. And my personal opinion is that we who comprises the church have lost sight of the fact that God has called his church, that is, you and me, to be holy. The bottom line there, you know, I think about a text such as Deuteronomy 1144, where God chooses the word holiness to describe Him, himself to his people. And I think we've forgotten that. You know, in that text, God says, for I am the Lord your God, concentrate yourselves, therefore, and be holy, for I am holy.

And that commandment is echoed in the New Testament as well in First Peter 116, where Peter says, you should be holy for I am holy. So what that means from the standpoint of practical application for us in the churches that we're to have such an awe and reverence for the holiness and purity of God that we aspire to live lives of wholeness and purity as well. Now, a case in this point, and yet, you know, when you think about the whole digression that the church is making towards this whole woke theology movement, I think bottom line, that is the root cause of it. The church has lost sight of the fact that we are to live holy lives. You look at what John, the apostle says in 1 John 21st, John 214, 14, where, you know,

where we are not to love the world, nor the things in the world. And I think the church has gotten so caught up into loving the world. We are so enamored now with the things of the world, such as being woke, as opposed to being enamored with the things of God, that the church has gotten captured into that movement. And I think that's a root cause of where we are right now. We basically have lost sight of what God intends for his church to do, what he intends for us to be. So what would you say to someone who says, well, Daryl, I can be woke and be holy at the same time. Being woke just means, you know, I'm aware of racial issues or I'm aware of social justice issues.

This would be someone who considers themselves a woke Christian. Why are, why is being holy and being woke mutually exclusive? Well, you know, I kind of want to go back and answer that question and sort of dovetel on what I was just saying. You know, when we, when you look at the whole woke theology movement, I mean, being woke itself from the standpoint of terminology and vernacular, that's just a phrase. That's just a term, and it's nothing more than that from a worldly standpoint. When you look at how we got here, though, how this movement sort of snuck up, if you will, and just captured the church.

My argument would be that we got here by virtue of our affections being misplaced. And what I mean by that, our hearts are so oriented toward the things of the world, rather than the things of God, this whole woke theology movement, it has sort of embraced us unawares. Now, when you look at what's going on with this whole woke movement, the problem is that when you say these racial issues and everybody says that there are issues here, issues is just another word for the sins that the Bible already deals with. The woke theology movement is an example.

of how mistract we've gotten as a church, because it endeavors to bring about a society that operates on principles found in the gospel, but that are apart from the kind of heart change that occurs only by means of the transforming power of the gospel. Now, if I could quote one of my favorite theologians, I think I can bring this into more of a sharper context. Dr. D. Martin Lloyd-Jones once said, and I think rightly so, that the church has been trying to preach morality and ethics without the gospel, as a basis. And that's really what the woke movement is all about. They want society to reflect one of biblical ethics without preaching the gospel that changes hearts so that we are inclined to practice those kinds of ethics. Right. So do you think that's part of why people who, people

who advocate for that, why they've kind of put government in place of God or government in place of the church because someone's got to do it. And if God is in the center of your theology, it's really more social justice woke theology, there is someone who is going to be in power in any kind of theology. So do you see people kind of latching on to this idea that in order to truly be compassionate, in order to truly be godly, we've got to get the government involved in this work of social justice and reconciliation, whatever you want to call it? Yeah, I think you're, I have two parts to, two responses to that. Number one, you're absolutely right.

And I think the reason that is the case is because the church is attributing to government the mistaken attributes that they have about God. And what I mean by that is that the sovereignty of God is what's getting lost in all this. So the church has now developed a mindset by which we think that no one should suffer, no one should have any needs. the church is involved in meeting every single conceivable need that anyone has, whether it be inside the church or outside the church. But when we really understand God and his nature, then we realize that, number one, God is sovereign.

Then number two, God, his goal is to bring glory to himself, not to us. And a lot of times he brings glory to himself through suffering. He brings glory to himself through one. but we're not satisfied with that because we don't understand that aspect of God's character. So not understanding that, we look to government to do for us what God has said no to in our lives. So we sort of assuaged God, rather we relieve God of his sovereignty, and then we impart his sovereignty to government. And then we've developed this sort of paternalistic, maternalistic view of government that, well, if God won't give me what I want, I'll just look at. to the government to do it. And that's wrong for the church to do. I also think it's a case of

mistaken identity. It seems like over the past, I mean, it's probably existed longer, but especially over the past 10 years, this idea of intersectionality and the politics of grievance and really the gospel of grievance has kind of taken over of instead of seeing ourselves as Christians, as new creations, our identity being in Christ, being more than conquerors in Christ, we first identify ourselves by the way that we have been oppressed. So, and this is the world of intersectionality. I'm a woman. So I have to see the world through the eyes of a woman who has been systemically

oppressed at one point. And so it's important for me to be a Christian feminist. And then you've got people in, or you've got people of color saying, well, I'm an immigrant or I'm a black person. And so I'm a black Christian. I'm an immigrant. I'm an immigrant Christian. And we see.

the world and we see justice through eyes of how we have been maybe oppressed, maybe not, maybe just someone that we know has been oppressed. And we kind of fixate our theology around that, around perceived oppression. That's where you kind of get this argument for racial reparations and things like that. Tell me why that is misguided. Well, first of all, it's misguided because I don't want to take too long a response to this questions, but it does have many, many facets. Number one, none of us is self-created. Each of us was created by God, and by virtue of our not being self-created, we have no say-so, nor can we take any credit with respect to whatever attributes we may possess. With respect to ethnicity, with respect to our sex.

The Apostle Paul says in one of his epistles, you know, what do you have? that you have not received, where our very identity, every single aspect of who we are from an identity standpoint was sovereignly created for us by God himself. And to whatever extent, and oppression is such a subjective term, I don't even know if there's an objective definition for how that term is being defined because it's being tossed around so frivolously. But to whatever extent someone does suffer oppression. Number one, we should expect that in a sinful world. I really don't understand why oppression is so surprising as a reality to so many people. We live in a sinful world. This world is populated by sinners. You and I are two sinners who are talking to one another

here. So to whatever degree oppression still exists, whether it's ethnic or some other type, we should not be surprised by that, which is why we need the gospel so much, because the gospel changes hearts. Changing laws doesn't do a thing to change a heart. It has nothing to do with that. We can put all kind of laws on the books. But what makes a law effective, what makes laws effectual are hearts that are inclined

to obey them. If your heart isn't inclined to obey the law, you get absolutely no benefit from that law. But the hyphenations that we just keep coming with, it's as if there's a new term, a new hyphenation, uh, every day. The church should never be divided along those lines. The church is comprised of believers in Christ. So, so essentially there's two types of people.

There's believers and there's unbelievers. And our job as believers is to get the gospel out to unbelievers so that they don't spend an eternity separated from God. That's the bottom line. Yeah. Is there a place, do you think, for Christians to fight for legislation that is, is just, for example, abortion. We know that abortion is morally wrong. And so I'm a pro-life advocate, and I'm sure like you, actually I know because I heard you talk about it, something like the Born Alive Survivors Protection Act or the third term abortion that has been legalized and even glorified on the left. Of course, Christians feel called to say, okay, this is wrong. And we need to enact legislation to take care of the least of these. Tell me how that is different from someone

from a woke Christian who would say, well, it's the same thing when I'm trying to push for social justice legislation. I don't think it's the same thing, but some people might argue that it is. Yeah, I don't think it's the same thing either. I think one of my most dogmatic arguments against this whole social justice walk movement is that scripture does not place adjectives in front of the word justice. When you read through scripture, there's either justice or there's injustice. When we obey God, there's justice. When we disobey God, there's injustice. So with regard to justice, or I'll just use it for the sake of conversation, social justice and abortion, the answer is the same. If there's a scriptural basis for those things, and there is, we must, first of all, I don't like the word

fight because the scripture doesn't tell us to fight for anything. It tells us to do justice. It tells us to not kill the innocent, including children, through abortion. So scripture is clear on that. So with respect to what scripture says about pursuing justice, pursuing legislation, I would say those things are secondary to sharing and preaching the gospel, which changes hearts so that they are inclined to, number one, support candidates who support those biblical mandates. The truth is, Ali, we have Christians out here right now who are voting for candidates who support the murder of unborn children, not understanding what the Bible says about that.

So their motive for going to the polls and voting is not a biblical or theological motive to begin with. It's more political. It's more social. It's more cultural. So I think it's important for us to use biblical terminology when we're talking about justice and things of these nature. Nowhere in scripture does it tell us to fight for justice. But to the extent that that phraseology is used, Christians are to line up behind candidates who are biblical in their worldview.

And it's a biblical worldview that shapes within you a biblical political ideology. and we should vote for candidates whose lives align with that worldview. So would you say their personal lives align with that worldview? Because that's also, you know, that's also hard for a lot of Christians on the Republican side because there are certain Republican politicians who advocate for the policies that we believe in, but whose personal lives do not align with the Bible at all. Do you think that, so where do you think that are, let me rephrase, that how do you think Christians should approach that?

You've got a candidate that you know, is it Christ like, but he's going to fight for the things that you believe should be fought for, like pro-life legislation. How do you think Christians should approach that? Yeah, I can answer that question from a personal perspective.

My personal ethos on that is that I would not support a candidate who aligned with every single political position I happen to hold, but his personal life is a wreck. If his personal life is fraught with sin, unrepented sin, and there's objective evidence to substantiate that. I really don't care what his political positions are because his primary, if this is a professing Christian, his primary responsibility is to live his life personally as a testament

to what Christ has done in his heart. Whatever he does politically is secondary to that. So if there's fruit in his life that denies his profession, it really doesn't matter to me what his political positions are at that point. Yeah. I think that can be very difficult. There seems to be a line between, okay, this person is a professing Christian and his life generally aligns with it. But there is that one thing over here that I'm not so sure is Christlike. And then because you do have people saying, well, okay, this guy over here.

Actually, I heard a Christian teacher say recently that they were talking about, someone asked him about Trump. And he said, you know, Trump is a very immoral person. But then someone asked him about Barack Obama. And he said, great guy, great guy. Now, this is a guy who is outspokenly pro-life. And so I think it can be very difficult for Christians to find that balance. You know, do you have to pick and choose?

Do you have to ever compromise? Is not voting an option? it's a hard thing to work through. Do you think so? Yeah, I don't think not voting is ever an option for a Christian. I don't think not, but I think you bring up a great point. Sometimes there's a line we have to, we have cross. But in crossing that line, however, we have to trust God, again, that he is sovereign because the scripture is clear, right, that those who rule over us in government

are sovereignly appointed to those positions by God. Right. And God is watching over everything that happens within the entirety of his universe. So in those situations, yeah, there can be certain times where we feel we have to compromise, but we have to do so trusting God to do that. I'm glad to hear you bring up Obama because it was, you know, I don't know the man personally. I've never met him, but it was through my biblical worldview that I chose not to support him. To me, if a candidate does not hold to a biblical worldview, I cannot support that person.

Each person must vote according to their own conscience. But for the Christian, there are clear scriptural guidelines and precepts that we should and must follow in deciding which candidates we support. And Barack Obama was absolutely one of the candidates where it was just overtly clear that no country. Christian. No genuine Christians should ever have supported this man. Okay, there's one more thing I want to talk to you about, but I don't want to ruin this subject for listeners who need to go listen to your podcast from this week. But you did a podcast called Theology of Socialism. And I would love to hear you talk about that a little bit. Like I said, I don't want to spoil it for everyone. But with AOC and the popularization of socialism, particularly among millennials, and

among millennial evangelicals. I have friends who have said, you know, the typical thing, Jesus was a socialist. Well, you and I know that's not true, but tell me, tell me why socialism is unbiblical, if you would say that. Yeah, so socialism is basically just legalized theft. And biblically speaking, everyone knows that stealing is wrong. scripture is very, very clear with respect to the principle of private property, private ownership of property, hence the Eighth Commandment, Thou Shall not steal. So intrinsic with that commandment is the idea of private property.

There are certain things that belong to you, Allie, that don't belong to me or anyone else. So, you know, you take Christ's interaction with the rich young ruler. when the rich young ruler was asked by Christ to sell all of all of his possessions and give to the poor. So even Christ acknowledged that the wealth that the ruler had was his wealth. And even after the rich young ruler declined, Jesus' invitation to come follow him, Jesus didn't force or coerce the ruler to go and sell his possessions. So yes, socialism is inherently unbiblical because it is legalized theft. And in the podcast episode that we did on the biblical theology of socialism, we took almost two hours to unpack reasons why that's the case.

Yeah. And I think that that's a hard thing for people to hear because it's easy. It's easy to believe that socialism is the compassionate thing to do. One, because most millennials, younger millennials, have no concept of money and taxes and redistribution. They're just kind of politically and financially ignorant. but you've got a lot of young people. I know that you've covered kind of the theological trends in this country. You've got a lot of young people that also don't know theology. So they don't know politics. They don't know theology.

But what they do know is their feelings. And it feels really good to say, I'm willing to pay for someone else's health care. Of course, I'm willing to pay for someone else's college. Or at least I want someone to pay for mine. That would be great. I've always said that socialism and social justice allows millennials to feel virtuous without ever having to get off the couch. And I think that's why you have a lot of, you know,

a lot of support around that ideology as well as around people like Bernie Sanders and AOC and even Beto O'Rourke because it feels good. Yeah, and you actually mentioned the contradiction that is unavoidable with folks who subscribe to a socialist worldview. So for that millennial who wants to feel virtuous, without leaving the couch. You see, the Bible also talks much about the sin of laziness. So you can't have it both ways.

You can't have the benefits of socialism without contributing to what makes socialism possible. See, that's just such a contradiction within socialism, is that you need capitalism in order to have socialism. But how do you get socialism without producers? If everyone would take that attitude of that particular millennial and just say, I'm just going to lay here on the couch, I mean, everyone would starve to death. So somebody's got to work. Somebody's got to work.

Somebody's got to work for profit. Somebody has to work for profit. If that's not the reality, then socialism just disappears. But it is inherently unbiblical. And the reason why, I'm glad you mentioned this, is because we don't know theology. We don't know what the Bible says about these things, which is why we took so long to exposit that subject within the framework of what the Bible. does say about it. Yeah. I think everyone who has questions about the subject, confused about the subject should go to the Just Thinking podcast and listen to this episode. Maybe you have to take

two commutes to listen to it since you said it's two hours long. But I think that that is a good step that people can take. Also, what I tell people whenever they say, how do I fight against this kind of like woke theology that sounds so good? I say, read your Bible. Read your Bible. And understand your Bible. That's really, I think, what is missing in so much of this. Yeah, I would agree, Ellie. And that's all I do. That's all I do in my social media, post, my blog. That's all we do on the podcast.

We open the Word of God and we exposit what the Word of God has to say about these subjects. And as I've often said, there's not a single subject that we face in our lives today that the Bible does not speak to. The Bible speaks to every single topic, every single issue that the church encounters today is in there. took the time to become better students, better theologians, better apologists. Every person who professes the name of Christ is a theologian. Every person who professes to believe in Jesus Christ is an apologist. And we must be more disciplined, more diligent to spend time in the study of gospel

so that we can be better defenders of his truths against these heretical worldviews that are going to come against us, such as woke theology, socialism, and you know what's next around the corner is communism. That's going to be the next wave. And the church is not immune to that. The only way we can be immune to that is to know what the Word of God says about these issues. And unfortunately, you have people who purport to know the Word of God well, who are, if they're not all out supporting these kind of socialistic, communistic ideas, they are at least they are warm to them and they're silent to them and they don't see how social justice is actually connected to all of it.

So, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, and just on that note, Al, you know, one of my, when the whole social justice, whenever I'm in a discussion around social justice and someone who is a Christian, is sort of dog mad they brought into the whole social justice movement. I like to bring up the encounter between Jesus and John the Baptist, where John the Baptist was unjustly in prison, right?

So he's in prison unjustly, and he sends a couple of his disciples. to Jesus to ask him, listen, Jesus, I know I'm about to die. I know my death is impending. I just need to ask you, are you really the one we've been expecting, or do we need to expect someone else? Well, Jesus sent his answer back to John and said, go back and tell John what you have seen and what you've heard. You've seen the deaf here. You've seen the blind sea. You've seen the lame walk. But lastly of that list, Jesus said, you've also seen that the poor had the gospel preached to them. Now, why do I bring this up?

Because even Jesus realized that you can heal the lame, you can heal the blind, you can heal the death, you can feed the hungry, you can house the homeless. But ultimately, what every person needs more importantly than any of that is to hear the gospel. Because

even the poor died, and even eternity is awaiting the poor. So what Jesus was conveying to us is that more important than anything in this temple, existence is your spiritual condition. Where is your soul headed after you die? And even after responding to John, Jesus didn't free John.

He could have freed John from prison because he was there unjustly. No, he didn't. Jesus chose to allow John to suffer the execution of death, being beheaded. Now, the social justice must argue, well, why didn't Jesus do that? Why didn't he free John? He was there unjustly. But that goes back to my point earlier. God and his sovereignty uses even evil and unjust actions, laws, policies to bring glory

to himself. And our job is to obey God regardless of the situation that we found ourselves in. Right. So to make sure that I have this clear for everyone, just in summary, as we kind of wrap this up, yes, it is good to believe in an advocate for policies, legislation that are actually just, not social justice, but actual justice. So that is depending on the lines of the unborn. But our primary obligation is always to preach the gospel, which changes hearts.

It's not that we shouldn't care about legislation at all or shouldn't care about justice at all. It's that we know that the primary problem is a heart problem, is a sin problem. not a legislation problem, correct? Exactly. That's the primary problem. Listen, that's the root cause of every sin that we encounter. Listen, that's the root cause of adultery and marriage. That's the root cause of child abuse. That's the root cause of biblical injustice. That is the root cause of every single thing that's wrong in this world. But again, we should expect that in a world that is populated by sinners. And the only way to resolve that is for folks' hearts to be transformed by the power of the gospel.

And that is our primary job. And you're doing a fantastic job, for example, through your podcast and getting the gospel out through this means. People's hearts must change. And until then, we should expect what we continue to see happen in our world each and every day, unfortunately. Amen. Well, can you tell everyone where they can find you and anything you want them to know? Yeah, so the podcast, again, is Just Thinking. Whether you have Android or iTunes, you can go out in your podcast app and search for Just Thinking.

You can also go to my blog at Just Thinking. That's one word, justthinking.me. You can read my blog articles, and there's a link there that will connect you to the podcast as well. So there you go. Perfect. Well, Darrell, thank you so much for taking the time. I know you're busy. You've got a lot going on.

But I appreciate everything you do. And I'm excited for my listeners who haven't heard of the podcast quite yet. I'm sure there's a lot that already have. But any who haven't to check you guys out because you guys are an awesome resource. Allie, thanks so much. Stay strong. Congratulations on your pregnancy. Thank you.

I'm praying for you, your husband. And thanks again for having me on today. It was my privilege, seriously. He is so wise, knows his Bible so well. I could listen to him talk all day. There were things that he said that I, hadn't thought about or hadn't considered that I still kind of have to to think about myself and how I apply biblical theology to how I see politics and how I advocate for policies and legislation.

So this is stuff that I'm still learning that we're all kind of working through together. And I appreciate you guys being on this journey with me. If you have any questions about this particular episode or any suggestions about future podcast episodes. As always, feel free to email me, Ali at the Conservative millennial blog.com. Message me on Instagram email. I'm more likely to see it there. I've gotten a lot of great emails from you guys over this past week. I hope that you have enjoyed the first week of Monday, Wednesday, Friday, relatable.

Remember, Monday is going to be a little bit different than it was this week. Instead of being exclusively news, we're going to look at things from a biblical, theological Christian perspective starting on a Monday so you can start fresh. and inspired and motivated by the word of God. And then Wednesday, you'll be more news. And then Friday, of course, will be another conversation. I think I'll bring my husband on the podcast next week. Okay, love you guys.

Hope that you have an awesome, wonderful, beautiful weekend. Thank you for listening. Leave a review if you would like. And happy Friday. Hey, this is Steve Deast. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself.

On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they lead, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this Steve Day show right here on Blaze. TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.