Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 866 | Why Christians Don't Need Jewish Traditions | Guests: Jeremiah Roberts & Andrew Soncrant of 'Cultish' (Part Two)

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.

Starting point is 00:00:39 The Hebrew roots movement, the insistence by a growing number of Christians upon abiding by Old Testament rules and regulations, is a reaction to the paganism that has overtaken American culture. But reacting to paganism or secularism is not synonymous with Christianity. This is part two of a two-part conversation with the hosts of cultish, Jeremiah Roberts and Andrew Sondkrant, warning about a segment of Christianity or professing Christianity that has taken captive mini in the church today. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use code alley at checkout. That's good ranchers.com Code Allie. As you all were explaining the anti-Trinitarian aspects of some of the beliefs of some of the people who adhere to the Hebrew Roots movement, not celebrating Christmas and Easter. I was like, this sounds a lot like Jehovah's Witnesses. And I was just interested if you guys had seen any crossover or if it just kind of happens that this is, this is how it goes. When you step outside of Orthodox Christianity and step into some form of legalism, now it's obviously different. because as you said, there are people who adhere to parts of Hebrew roots who do really love Jesus and they're sincere in what they're trying to do.

Starting point is 00:02:09 They might just be misled, whereas Jehovah's Witness is not Christianity at all. But it's interesting that there is some crossover there. Yeah, absolutely, because it comes from like what Jerry was saying earlier about the restoration movement. We see that taking place in the 1800s because there's a belief during that time during the second, quote-unquote, great awakening where there is a great apostasy, essentially, Mormonism holds the belief. Jehovah's witnesses hold that belief that there was the truth of God in the gospel, Jesus Christ, was lost after the apostles. And then now, in these last days, that it is being restored to us. And typically the presuppositions behind those arguments is that the Council of Nicaea was pagan, Constantine, paganized Christianity,

Starting point is 00:02:56 things of that nature. A lot of these movements take place on attacking. the historic creeds of Christianity that that happened long ago, that there was a truth that was lost and now it's restored. And so since they're saying that these things were paganized, then you can logically follow that holidays must be pagan as well. We can't trust history, things of that nature. I mean, that's where we see pretty much every cult coming from the United States of America or cult-like movement, shall I say, starts during this period of time during the restoration

Starting point is 00:03:29 is pretty incredible if you think about it. It's sad also, but you can go Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Millerites, and the beginning roots of Seventh-day Adventism. All of these things have foundational presuppositions, which is you can't trust history. The gospel has been lost, and now it's going to be restored, even Alexander Campbell and the Campbellites in the early Church of Christ. So all of it takes place then. And what's interesting as well is Alexander Histonson, is Alexander Histons.

Starting point is 00:03:59 up's book on the mythologies of essentially reconstructed history of holidays also was written around the time of the early to mid-1800s. And that's where we get a lot of this mythological arguments against Halloween and Christmas, which have been debunked by, you know, real historians. Okay. I just had a thought, as you were saying that. I was like, wow, yeah, that's so true. They all kind of share this premise of, we are the, we are going to be the,

Starting point is 00:04:29 ones, the central figure, Joseph Smith, or whatever, we are going to be the ones to restore the real gospel. This is not new. This is how it was always supposed to be. Now, that sounds a little bit like the Reformation. Obviously, I am a reformed Protestant, but I could see how a Catholic friend listening to this would say, well, isn't that kind of what Martin Luther did, which I think we all know our arguments, but I could see someone saying that's kind of similar. No, this is how it was always supposed to be the real gospel has been lost, the real scripture has been lost. Don't trust these councils. Don't trust the Catholic Church.

Starting point is 00:05:05 Don't trust some of these church fathers. Martin Luther, I have the real gospel. What would you say to that? That was just a thought that I had as you were explaining it. Jerry, you want to go first? Well, my authority is not Martin Luther. Yeah. Like, that's not, that's not, Martin Luther's not the standard.

Starting point is 00:05:25 Like, I've, the only thing, honestly, I've read by Martin Luther, there's a way. website that's actually kind of funny. It's called Luther's Insults. So he was very brash with a lot of the things that he would say. Yes. He would say, I don't know if I want to even paraphrase your quote you might have to believe it out. But it's very, it's called the you click on this website and it says insult me Luther. It'll just have some random quote against calling, you know, some very colorful names to somebody, you know, he believed was a heretic. But honestly, our authority when it comes to this is scripture. We look at what was what was articulated in the first century. when the Apostle Paul was writing to the Romans, like, what is he talking about justification by faith? I get the fact that, you know, Luther and his Reformation, they're looking to reform the church. They thought the church had lost its ways, but we have sources. Our standard is scripture, which comes from the first century when the canon was accumulated. So that's what we're going to.

Starting point is 00:06:24 We're not looking at Luther or Calvin or any of these refra. you know, for those of us who adhere to a reform reform theology, like, I've never read a book by John Calvin. I know of the books. But when it comes to even my convictions regarding, you know, so teriology when it comes to that, like, I have convictions what scriptures, what scripture says of what that is. That's not the primary authority. So that's how I would say in contrast to that. And again, that's a whole, that's actually a topic we are going to do explore in a probably future episode of Cultures as well, too. Andrew, what are your thoughts on that too? Yeah, I'm going to echo that on authorities.

Starting point is 00:06:58 So with regards to the Protestant Reformation and the Roman Catholic Church and let's say Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness, parts of the Hebrew Roos movement, worldwide church of God, we have to think about what the authority is. So what Martin Luther was telling people is like this is what the Roman Catholic Church doesn't have the authority to interpret the Bible for you in terms of penance, things of that nature were justified by faith, not by a pope who's telling us, exactly how we are supposed to be justified by God. We need to develop our doctrine solely through the Word of God. So what's going on within restorationist movements is you see that they do the very same thing as, let's say, the Roman Catholic Church, for example. It's that we have a person. Let's say the Watchtower Track Society. You can't necessarily read the Bible for yourself.

Starting point is 00:07:48 You also have to go through the Watchtower Track Society. That's your witness is for people who don't know. Exactly. I'm sorry. Yeah, for you in order to understand the scripture. So with Mormonism, well, then we have Joseph Smith. I'm a prophet of God. And I am writing the book of Mormon.

Starting point is 00:08:02 And you have to go through the book of Mormon, go through me in order to understand what the Bible is actually teaching. We have a separate standard other than the Bible. With Hebrew roots movements, we can understand as well. There's so many diverse views that are actually in conflict with one another inside the movement because you need a guru. You need this person with special knowledge to tell you exactly what you need to follow, not necessarily read the Bible. for yourself and follow it that way. So in terms of Martin Luther and within historic Christianity, even looking at the early church fathers and their writings, we can find that the Bible is the sole infallible rule of faith and practice. It's not an extra counsel of men or people who develop

Starting point is 00:08:41 what the Bible says. It's just the councils were developed like the Council of Nicaea in order to combat those things from occurring because there were people, for example, the Council of Nicaea, which happened in 325 AD, who were denying the deity of Jesus Christ. And we're denying the deity of Jesus Christ. They were saying that he was not the eternal God, that he was a created being. And that's a big deal because the Bible itself, not the men, the Bible is showing you that no Jesus Christ is the eternal God. So it was a correction occurring within time. So the Protestant Reformation has nothing to do with what was going on in the restoration because it's the Bible. It's the sole, the fallible rule of faith and practice, not a counsel or a single person. That's a beautiful thing about Jesus too. And his church, he says, go make disciples. of all nations. And it's a beautiful thing that we can have denominational differences in that the Word of God is our standard. And the differences that we have are audio opera, meaning there's small differences.

Starting point is 00:09:36 They're not gospel issues like, what is the gospel? How are you justified? Who is Jesus? But minor sub-issues. Whereas if you look at the restorationist movement, because they have an external standard through all of these cult-like movements, every difference that they have is astronomical, because you have someone who's making changes to what the word of God says and you must go through them first instead of going directly to God's word. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political.

Starting point is 00:10:12 They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. we ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this T-Day Show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.

Starting point is 00:10:52 I would say that Martin Luther and the reformers were doing the exact opposite of what some of these cultish leaders were doing during that time period. because rather than saying, I have special knowledge that has not been written down that just comes from me and I'm going to tell you something new, he actually says, no, I want the knowledge that has already been written down to be made for everyone. I want it to be accessible to you. He actually felt like almost the Catholic Church was holding this special knowledge. Well, only we know the Bible. Only we can interpret the Bible. Only we can tell you what the Bible says. And oh, by the way, you need to pay these indulgences because it's going to help your loved ones get out of purgatory.

Starting point is 00:11:34 And so it was really the opposite. Rather than saying there's special knowledge that only certain people can access, no, he believed that the average peasant should be able to access the gospel and the Word of God. He was totally unafraid of the truth being completely unleashed. And that's what distinguishes Christianity. But in particular, the reformation from these kind of Gnostic sects. that say, oh, no, no, no, no, don't trust what's written down and what you can easily understand.

Starting point is 00:12:04 I'm going to give you something far more complex, therefore far more sophisticated, and therefore more salvific than anything that you've heard so far. That's right. And in fact, one of the areas when you talk about, you know, by what standard, by how to even judge these movements. So a lot of times, whether it's Hebrew roots, whether it's any sort of restorationist group, there is sort of this aesthetic of like, you need to come to me and understand my special teaching and my special knowledge. And one of the primary refutations of that is scripture being self-authenticating,

Starting point is 00:12:38 which is in 1st John 2, 26 and 27. And the apostle John says, I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you by the anointing that you have received from him abides in you. And you have no need for anyone to teach you, but his anointing teaches you about everything. true and no lie. Just as he taught you, abide in him. So what you see is that one of the primary rules of the Holy Spirit, which is something that Jesus gave at Pentecost to all believers in Jesus Christ, is the gift of the Holy Spirit. So the Holy Spirit, for example, brings conviction of sin. That's one of the primary things that happens when a new believer in Jesus Christ is born again. But another thing, too, is that the Holy Spirit works to sort of illuminate the text of

Starting point is 00:13:23 Scripture and to make it come alive. Now, obviously, you know, scripture does talk about having, you know, pastors, rulers that you need, authorities that you need to submit to, and there's places for that. But the primary role between the meteor between God and man is the man Christ Jesus, and the primary pastors obviously who exposes the Word of God, but there's checks and balances where the Holy Spirit is the one who illuminates the text. And so a good pastor would say, don't judge what I'm saying. I'm not the final authority. Scripture. is. And judge what I'm saying, that's what our pastors teach. And what's also just interesting as well, too, when it comes to the Hebrew roots movement, is that the movement isn't primarily about reaching

Starting point is 00:14:04 non-believers. It's really focused in on sort of targeted towards Christians, people who are in churches. And a lot of times people have understandable grievances, whether it's church hypocrisy. You have pastors, for example, who are, you know, they're unfaithful towards their wife and they have to step down. It's wrecks people. There's been tons of stories of churches that have fallen apart and people who experience church hurt or just all sorts of issues with you. You can talk about the commercialized church. I mean, what was the pastor that did that crazy Easter service? Mike Todd.

Starting point is 00:14:40 Mike Todd, that was insane. I can only imagine somebody who's in the Hebrew roots would take a look at something like that. that's just bananas. Like what one earth were they thinking? And they only shut the social media down. I think when they got the backlash. But that's, it's an example where you see they are trying to reach out in many ways to Christians who have grievances and say,

Starting point is 00:15:02 hey, the reason is, is because the church has lost its way. We need to, the only true way to follow him is through this Torah observance. Now you need to, and it's not just about observing these things. This is now your new identity.

Starting point is 00:15:17 where now you can either, you know, study with me. A lot of times people, they'll pull people away from churches into house churches. And this is where a lot where a lot of these things get emphasized. And again, there's always some sort of gateway. It could be an issue of people having, you know, looking at the current version of Halloween, which now when you look at, you know, the LGBT, how we talk about how Halloween always incorporates the culture at large. And so you're probably going to see in this upcoming Halloween because of this, the influx of paganism here in the West. now the LGBT explosion, which is really a byproduct of just the explosion of paganism where

Starting point is 00:15:52 mask and feminine get distorted, but you're going to see people who will say, well, the reason is is because Halloween is pagan, we need to celebrate the feast. So that could be another way in which they go into. But again, when you go to the primary sources behind this movement, a lot of it is based in the 19th century. And usually restorationism, one of the ways they try and the appeal to it as a whole, It's a nice caveat and get around from scores and scores of church history. And one of the primary refutations, too, of the idea that the church would fall away is that this is what Jesus Christ said upon his church.

Starting point is 00:16:29 He said, upon this rock, I will establish my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. And that's not even a defensive position. That's talking about offensive when you're trying to breach the gates. So you have that aspect. But then you see at the end of Ephesians how the Apostle Paul talks about how the glory of Christ and the Church of Christ would be a beacon throughout all generations. There's not going to be sort of this pure version in the first century. And all of a sudden it disappears for 1,800 years. And, oh, look at me.

Starting point is 00:17:01 I've got it. Because guess what? For every huge Roost movement, there's a Joseph Smith. And it's almost like you've seen the animation of the Spider-Man's, you'll all point at each other. You know, say, like, you're the real Spider-Man, you're the caveat. Yeah. All these restorationists are also pointing at each other. So, no, I'm the real one. I'm the real slim shady. Yeah. No, no, you're not. No, it's not. And because the reality is that scripture says that Christ's church is always going to stand. And there's always issues of where we need to reform ourselves. We need to think about how we're conducting ourselves as pastors, how we're dealing with different conflicts. There's always, the church is very imperfect. And I've had my own era of like problems growing up in church. But they're like, what do you do with that? You need. to go back to the text and understand the existence of a counterfeit predicates the authenticity

Starting point is 00:17:47 of an original. And the problem is that the Hebrew roots movement, again, very sweet people, like I really, I've had conversations with a few of them, is that they take what are real and understandable, tangible problems that the church needs to deal with and shouldn't shy away from. But then they use a catalyst to really put in a burden or a yoke. And in some cases, depending on who the movement is, they go to challenge. essentials of the faith that puts you back out of the realm of 1st John where you start to deny that Jesus is God come in the flesh. And that's where it goes in the realm of no longer

Starting point is 00:18:21 being an Orthodox conversation, someone who's an heir of someone who is a wolf because they are denying the very truth of who Jesus Christ is. Right. I think we see this in a lot of aspects of the church. And again, it's understandable. Like as someone who is a conservative, I understand, for example, a reaction to feminism because feminism has wrought a lot of of destruction, but then you swing all the way over here maybe to whatever form it is, if it's condescension of women, believing that women shouldn't talk at all, period, whatever it is. So you take an equally unbiblical view, but that feels better because it's stricter and it's the opposite of feminism.

Starting point is 00:18:59 It's the opposite of liberalism. And so it feels more biblical. But the opposite of something is not necessarily the biblical option, whether you're talking about following the law or whatever it is, grace and law, there's a difference between legalism and holiness. There's a difference between the pendulum swinging in the opposite direction of liberalism and actually being biblical. I think a lot of people who swing in reaction to the depravity of the culture think that they are doing so in the name of sanctification when really, and all of us have fall and pray to this in some way, when really they are also just being affected by secular culture.

Starting point is 00:19:45 Because no matter what issue it is, we are all to be led by the spirit. That's how we're sanctified. We're not sanctified in reaction to the culture. We are sanctified by the leading of the Holy Spirit. So I think all of us need to be careful in that. And we need to make sure that like the direction that we're going is closer towards truth through the revealed wisdom that we have in the word, not just because we want to be anti whatever the world is. I think that there's a difference there. Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think one of the other refutations as well, too, and we're on Zoom, so I'll let you jump in here a second, is really when you look at what was really taking place in the first century, even the first couple of centuries after the church, with, as Rome was

Starting point is 00:20:30 expanding and also Christianity was expanding as well, too, there's an amazing series that's probably about 30 years old. I think you can find out on Amazon Prime called the Church. trial and testimony of the early church. And what you see is that one of the things that Christianity stood out, which was so distinctive and why it just exploded in Rome, because Rome was so, they had expanded so quickly that they really gave people a lot of room to kind of worship and their own gods and practice their own culture in their own specific way. They just had to give a pinch on the essence to Caesar. And that's obviously, if you know the whole story, that's why Christians were persecuted and killed because they would not say,

Starting point is 00:21:09 that Caesar is Lord. But what you saw, which was so amazing, is that you had tribes from every background, whether it was Greek, Roman, Nordic. So you think of like a Leonidas, a Ragnar Lothbrook, you know, all these different cultures that have been killing each other, murdering each other for centuries that hated each other. And all of a sudden, they're all coming together, taking at the Lord's table. And they have this unity. And that's what you see, like in Ephesians, where it talks about how Christ has broken down the barrier between Jew and Gentile, thus becoming one. And so what you end up seeing, even this movement, you see this overcorrection where as someone who's been overseas and on mission trips and I've talked with out of missionary is the most amazing thing of seeing someone from a very different culture than you is that there's obviously a culture shock when you go there. But when someone over there gets saved, like Christ saves them their purpose.

Starting point is 00:22:09 person, but their identity is still embedded within their culture. There isn't a different culture they have to adapt to versus Islam, where you convert and you now have to, you know, you have to give the adherence in Arabic, regardless of what language that you speak with. Like, Christ changes that person within the confines of their culture. And then they become a light to other people in their culture. So if someone is saved in the projects, that doesn't mean you have to wear a suit, a tie, and comb your hair in a specific way. No, you have, you now get to talk about Jesus, regeneration. I miss the old Lecrae, by the way.

Starting point is 00:22:45 And this is something I think about. But like, when you look at his earlier content, like, that's a lot of what he was doing. No one said, he had to, he was articulating the gospel in that way. And the error that the Hebrew roots takes is that they say, no, you need to sort of, regards to what tribe or culture you come from, you need to sort of adhere to sort of this arbitrary Jewishness. When in the reality, even if you look at the new text, Testament in the book of Hebrews, it was really talking about what the forefathers were looking towards to, that's the whole book of Hebrews is about, knowing, namely that Jesus is the Messiah,

Starting point is 00:23:20 and he was going to bring people from every tongue tribe and nation to himself. So that's just something that is an unfortunate grave error in my belief that the Hebrew Roots movement has, but I think one of the counteracts is to understand what the original is. I had some thoughts on what Ali was saying in terms of reactionary, how we can fall into these traps, the church being reactionary to the culture around us. I forget who said this, but it's a pastor, I believe, who said the culture is the report card of the church. Right. So as Christians, which I think we can echo out through the situation, is that Jesus Christ,

Starting point is 00:24:13 and through the power of the gospel, we have the ability to magnify culture, whether it be different, to make it find meaning. in the incarnation. Jesus Christ is the light and the life of all men. He makes the meaning of life through the incarnation, the God man. And then even death has meaning through the resurrection, the conquering of death. And this changes all cultures. This happened in space, in time. The Vikings gave up what they gave to what follow Christ. Right. This is real because there was a point in time where Christians were not reactionary, right? They were storming the gates of hell. On this rock, I'll establish my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. So I think the lesson that we can learn today as Christians is we should not be reactionary

Starting point is 00:24:56 to the culture instead. When we're not letting the river of living water flow from us as the church, what we're doing is we're actually bringing a drought to the nations, right? We should be preaching the word of God, the gospel, to free people, the Holy Spirit, to convict the world of sin and righteousness and tell the world, not reactionary. But this is what the king of kings and the Lord of Lord says. We need to obey him. Psalm 2, kiss the sun lest you perish in his way.

Starting point is 00:25:23 And then acting as Christ is truly king, we can see that theology formed from the Bible proper and the Word of God. We wouldn't be reactionary to the culture. Instead, we would understand that the culture and its development is because of Christians and how they speak. The culture is not in charge of the church. It should never be in charge of the church. but we have this weird misunderstanding today that the secular culture at large has some form of power that it doesn't actually have. In Psalm 10, Psalm 1101, the Lord said to my Lord, sit in my right hand until I make all of your enemies a footstool for your feet. It's echoed in Hebrews, even chapter 1.

Starting point is 00:26:02 Although we don't see all things in subjection to him, we will one day. And it's happening in this very moment. So in order to not be reactionary, we actually have to believe in Jesus as the fulfillment of all the feast. right Jesus as the fulfillment of the law in the spirit of the Lord is there is freedom and we need to express that freedom to the nations as being that river that outfloats from the garden of our religion true religion undefiled like it says in James in order to make that difference in the world and if we don't do that the secular culture suffers at large because you have to first love God in order to love neighbor so I think as the church we see LGBTQ issues when we're seeing the rise of

Starting point is 00:26:44 hostility in the world. The first thing I would want to take a look at is how are we doing? How are we doing? I do believe that the culture is the report card of the church. It's the gospel that changes the hearts and minds of men. So that's one thing to remember. And also, I want to plug this too, because Josh Robinson, we interviewed him with the exorcism of Kristen Bellamy. He's recently wrote a book and it's kind of talks about this stuff. It's called Reenchanting Time. And it's talking about how Christians had this mindset throughout millennia, right? Creating holidays. taking dominion, exercising the authority in which Christ had given us in controlling and taking dominion of the things around us. And we've lost that within the last two centuries. I mean,

Starting point is 00:27:24 our country itself was founded upon the principles of exercising the freedom of Christ into the world. And we've lost that in the last two centuries going back even to the restorationist movement and the claims that were made. So I think that stuff is really important. Yeah. And just one last thing too when it comes to that book by the way you should definitely look at it because i think one of the problems with reactionary and so it's all just has to do with social media as much as it's a blessing to be able to connect with your audience if you get we all get sort of forced and card mentalized it put on a jersey to find out you know whose team are you on right so that and it's usually overnight this happened in 2020 i call it the harambe effect where all of a sudden the thing happened

Starting point is 00:28:02 with harambe everyone also became an overnight expert on what zoo zookeepers shouldn't shouldn't do is laughing here. And so whether or not it's Black Lives Matter, whether or not it's Ukraine, whatever the issue is, we're all forced to take these sides. And you have to embrace a certain specific narrative. And I think also some of the reactionary comes to what is or is not pagan. And I think people regard before we even address that, as Christians, the most holistic view is to ask, what does, is the earth the Lord's, when you look, look at, when it talks in scripture, when it talks about the earth, the earth is the Lord and the fullness thereof. To what extent does that truly belong to the pagans? And so just because

Starting point is 00:28:47 pagans are the ones currently who run social media, who are sort of running, you know, who are just really ruling the Twitterverse with an iron fist up until Elon Musk came along and kind of cleared things up a little bit. And it's kind of interesting to see where that goes. But so if the pagans create something, does that mean we don't, we don't touch it? We just go off of social media, we don't engage in the public sphere. If you have a city that's created by, that's founded by pagans, you don't go there to try and start a business, to try and be salt and light because you don't want to be part of the world. I think Christians really need to ask themselves, what are they truly afraid of? And I think one of the problems, too, with

Starting point is 00:29:27 overcorrections is that obviously we are going through a very strange time right now. It's probably the strangest of times I've seen. And especially a lot of it has to do with the influence. of paganism here in the West, we are a post-Christian culture in every sense of the term. And the more you're seeing evil just being portrayed, whether it's in the music industry, or whether it's being in movies or the normalization of Satan in many different ways, there's this tendency to look at that and be fearful and be afraid of that. And this huge emphasis on demons, what is or isn't pagan, and how somehow this is going to get on you. when in reality, as Christians, we need to look at the victory that Christ did on the cross.

Starting point is 00:30:11 When he talked about how one, as far as our own personal identity, ourselves, that our life is hidden with Christ and God. That Christ has already, for those who are Christians, Christ has already canceled the debt. And he has nailed, of decrees that were nailed against us, that were held to the cross. But then we look at in regards to demons and paganism. Paganism is, it gets its information and source from, demonic entities. There's no, that's incontrovertible. But what does, what does Scripture say about the relation to Christ, about Christ in relation to principalities and powers and the elemental spirits of the world? It says in Colossians chapter 2 that Christ has made

Starting point is 00:30:50 a public spectacle over them, has already triumphed over them, has made a mockery over through them. So I look at the culture and obviously I want to be concerned. I have, I have a baby on the way, and I'm a father to, I'm a father to be, I'm a father to be, and Andrew you have four kids, that we want to obviously be discerning, but also not be fearful, because Christ is victorious. And so even the aesthetic of being scared because this or this is pagan, one, it's, it's in fake, the sources are in fake pseudo history. You don't see any of this paganism as argumentation. It's all source from 19th century pseudo-historians. There's nothing based in fact when it comes to this, but it's also based off of a fear that somehow the unbelieving world can somehow get something onto you from pagan sources when you're already in Christ and your identity is hidden with Christ and God.

Starting point is 00:31:50 People are sort of lot. They're sort of in a sense, looking at, you know, emulating sort of Peter, looking at this storm, being fearful and sinking in fear, rather than seeing Jesus who's right in front of the. So rather being afraid of the culture and all the different agis of paganism that are very real and very tangible. And I can understand why people would want to over correct them pendulum swing to something like the Hebrew roots. They're not looking at the big picture right in front of them, again, that their life is hidden with Christ and God. And that Christ is victorious over even the primary sources of where true paganism comes from. So I think that's one of the major ways to kind of correct something like the Hebrew roots. Yeah, and I think that it's just so gracious of God that he allows us to see our overcorrections and our disobedience in his word, and he always brings us back.

Starting point is 00:32:44 I think we do have the tendency to be reactionary, and I was thinking as you were talking about the different issues that we have in our culture, it's not wrong to build a response to those things. I mean, I certainly have become more solid on issues because I've had. had to respond and react to them that I just didn't have to think about before. I mean, there was a time that really none of us put a whole lot of thought into gender. Can you switch your gender? Why does it, why does biology matter more than what you feel? Are there multiple genders? We all knew the answers, of course, but we would have laughed it off.

Starting point is 00:33:18 We didn't have to think deeply about that 20 to 25 years ago. My parents weren't worried when I just wanted to wear jeans and a t-shirt when I was four years old. It wasn't some existential crisis that we went through as a family. But now that it is, Christians are kind of forced to respond. So it's not wrong to look at the culture and say, whoa, how should I respond to that? And then go into the Word of God and say, okay, thank the Lord that he has given me clarity on this. Now I have an answer because the Word of God has already answered this question for me. It is wrong, though, to take an equally unbiblical position on the other side of the pendulum

Starting point is 00:33:57 just because you want to be anti-secular. There's a difference between anti-secular and biblical. Absolutely. I could not agree more. So I just want to finish with just specifically the Hebrew Roots movement, which I agree with you. I think it is as sincere as some of the people may be. I do think it is perhaps an overcoraction. and the biggest concern with me is not just, oh, that you like traditions or you don't like shellfish.

Starting point is 00:34:36 Okay, whatever. That's fine. I think that's you, you like to celebrate the feast because you think it's a fun historical thing in Jesus did take part in them. But I do think it has the power to diminish the power of the gospel or in your life, your belief in the power of the gospel and create some kind of man-made religion that we know cannot save. So I just want to finish with a couple of, a couple of verses that you have you guys have alluded to a few times so one is ephesians two 13 but now in christ jesus you who once were far off gentiles have been brought near by the blood of christ for he himself is our peace who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances that he might create in himself one new man in place

Starting point is 00:35:30 of the two so making peace. It might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross. So Gentiles don't become Jews, but Gentiles and Jews both become Christians. So we're not, as you said, trading our cultural identity. We are not trading our Jewishness culturally or Gentilness culturally. We are all trading our identity as fleshly people for spiritual people, for Christians. Yeah. And then there's Romans 7, 6, but now we are released from the law, having died to that which

Starting point is 00:36:04 held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the spirit and not in the old way of the written code, which is so clear. And so is Galatians 310. For all who rely on works of the law, again, not just you look to it, you think it's a good idea to abide by some of them, but all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse. For it is written. cursed is every curse be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law and do them now it is evident that no one is justified before god by the law for the righteous shall live by faith christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree and that to me is the verse that really shows that by looking to the law for our salvation anywhere or even our sanctification looking to the old Testament law, it diminishes the work on the cross that Jesus did for us by fulfilling the law and freeing us from the yoke that was placed on us by the law. The law is not salvific at all. And that's what I fear. I fear that people aren't experiencing the freedom that is in the

Starting point is 00:37:15 gospel and in Christ because they think that they have to abide by laws that are no longer applicable to Christians today. Yeah, definitely. And just what we do, if you want to understand, we've only really covered the almost the very basic bullet points in a sense because, again, this view is so broad. And they'll probably in the comment section, you know, you have certain people disagreeing on either what we said. You might even have people, certain Hebrew roots people even disagreeing with each other. No, I'm the proper representation. No, I am. No, I am. But we would just say we have some content, if you want to understand on a deeper level. We have a good friend of ours, Andrew Schumacher.

Starting point is 00:37:54 We've done a couple episodes with him, four episodes altogether. encompassing two series. I think the verse one, which is a general overview, the second series goes into specific claims. And then as far as the different scripture and proof text that they try and look at in relation to the law, Torah, the gospel, and something really good because more than likely, again, this is, you can probably, some people will get very passionate and kind of argue about in the Internet land. But in reality, most of anyone who has to deal with us are probably talking with a friend in close proximity to them, a friend that truly care for, a family, maybe somebody in a home church or maybe in a mom's group where someone all of a sudden someone comes to

Starting point is 00:38:37 have these ideas of the feasts and stuff like that. That's where they're going to be really dealing with it. There's another book just called the Hebrew Roots Movement, and it's an author by the name of Ruben Gomez. He's actually a minister from Spain, and he's given a really good general overview of just sort of answering some of these claims. He kind of goes more more in depth on the worldwide church of God, some of what he calls Hebrish, which is sort of the combined mixture of English in Hebrew, and that's where you kind of get those made-up terms like Yahshua or all these kind of weird variations of the name of God that are just have really come about by this movement. And again, I would say the book by Josh Robinson

Starting point is 00:39:15 called Reenchanting Time, that kind of gives a good understanding of the nature in which Christians have where every day belongs to the Lord. And we, and also even the ability as Christians to set apart our own holidays. In fact, the general principle of Christians establishing days in glory to God, that's even where Thanksgiving came from, that there was a very Christian nature behind Thanksgiving that we even celebrate today, a day that was commemorated as a day to give Thanksgiving to God. And even as now, as materialistic as we've gotten, now you refer to it as Turkey Day.

Starting point is 00:39:55 We don't really think of it as truly giving Thanksgiving to God for all the provisions that he's given us, even in the strangest of time. So I would say definitely look at those resources. And hopefully this would give a very good understanding, especially if any of you have a good friend, somebody that you care about, where you kind of see these, you're not sure of how to address them. We definitely encourage you take a look at those sources. Yes, definitely. Go ahead. Last word. Yeah, just another source for everybody, Andrew Schumacher, who we interviewed for those Hebrew Roots, movies.

Starting point is 00:40:25 episodes we did. He actually has a YouTube channel in terms of apologetics and he talks with these people. It's called The Beginning of Wisdom. That's his YouTube channel. I just want to throw that plug out there because it's really helpful. Yes. Well, thank you guys so much for this insight. Again, I mean, this is a subject, like all the subjects we've discussed, that could be talked about for hours and hours. But I do hope that it's giving people an understanding. And the goal always is to point back to the gospel, not to ourselves or our own wisdom or anything, but the gospel really does have the answers for all the things. things that we're discussing. So thank you guys so much. Recommend y'all's podcast, the Coltish podcast. Thanks for taking the time to come on. Absolutely. Thanks for having that,

Starting point is 00:41:06 Soutelle. Hey, Relatable bells and Relato Bros. If you could please leave us a five-star review, wherever you listen to Relatable, that would mean so much to us and it really does help the show. Also, if you haven't subscribed to our YouTube channel, please do. Thanks. This is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they

Starting point is 00:41:57 leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 866 | Why Christians Don't Need Jewish Traditions | Guests: Jeremiah Roberts & Andrew Soncrant of 'Cultish' (Part Two)

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.