Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 869 | Does the Right Need More Atheism? | Dr. Colin Wright (Part Two)

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

Starting point is 00:00:19 We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. From where do morality and rights come from the atheist perspective? That's what I'm trying to get at today with my guest, evolutionary biologist, Dr. Colin Wright. This is the second part of our two-part conversation will also be discussing. Can the Christian write and atheists link arms when we can't really agree on where our values are actually derived? I think you're going to get a lot out of this.

Starting point is 00:01:08 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use Code Alley. Check out that's good ranchers.com. Code Alley. So this part of the conversation is going to kind of transition us into the more discussing worldview, Christianity versus atheism. and I'll kind of explain the bridge that I at least see in my mind.

Starting point is 00:01:37 But why can't we say, okay, sex is fixed, fine. You know better than I do, but gender is fluid. And there is such thing as a way to identify according to how you feel, according to how you think. And that really is a spectrum. That really is fluid. Even if you're biologically male or female, we should be able to be to present as the opposite sex and live is the opposite sex because that is truly how we feel. So why does physical reality matter more than how someone says they sincerely feel in their heart and mind?

Starting point is 00:02:20 Yeah. So I think that sex, you know, it matters, but it really only matters in certain contexts. Like I don't think we should consider someone's sex if we're trying to decide whether they should get a promotion, whether we're going to hire them. You know, there's very few. aspects in society, I think, where we need to really be vetting people based on their biological sex. It's only in certain areas like sports and changing rooms, who prisons you go to, you know, all the things that are currently being debated in society right now. Those are the areas where, you know, it's really important for reasons of safety or fairness. So in most contexts, yes, sex probably shouldn't matter. And I think that a lot of, well, what a lot of people are referring to is

Starting point is 00:03:01 gender identity is really just a your self-assessed position along some imaginary spectrum of masculine or feminine stereotypes. So most people sort of can conceive of themselves as encompassing varying degrees of stereotypical masculinity or femininity. This isn't really a gender identity. This is just sort of recognizing facts about yourself regarding just the way that you feel. You know, there are some women who are very masculine. There are some men who are naturally very feminine. This doesn't mean they're born in the wrong body. This doesn't mean they have a gender identity of a female if you happen to be male.

Starting point is 00:03:42 This just means that your gender nonconforming. I mean, part of evolutionary biology is that we have variation within and between categories in almost every category in nature. It's natural for men to be effeminate. It's natural for females to be masculine to some degree. even if it's not typical for their sex. Sex atypicality is a thing. This shouldn't be shunned.

Starting point is 00:04:08 I think if somebody wants to express themselves in more feminine ways than they're a boy or a man, then they should, by and large, be able to express themselves like this. But we need to be able to keep this line between how you choose to express yourself and the way that you feel internally and want to wear clothes and makeup to whatever degree. with your actual biological sex and in the areas where that matters.

Starting point is 00:04:33 Because your gender identity doesn't really matter. I think in any other context, I think most people should just be, you know, yeah, you can be a masculine woman or a feminine boy. That's fine. I don't see anything wrong with that. I think that's just part of natural human variation that we should all sort of just get over. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:04:50 You know, it's a real thing. But identity, when it comes to pronouns, when it comes to spaces, when it comes to athletic teams you believe, as I do, should be in accordance with someone's sex. Absolutely, yeah. Do you believe, I'm curious, like, do you believe in using someone's preferred pronouns if you know that they're really the opposite sex? So no. I only make an exception for people who are like my close friends who identify as trans and

Starting point is 00:05:23 who I know aren't actually delusional about their biological sex. So I'm friends with Buck Angel, for instance. Buck Angel is the first who identifies as a trans man, a biological female. Buck is the first person to tell everyone that they're biologically female. They just present as masculine because it helps them feel better and move through the world appearing this way. So I refer to Buck with he-him pronouns, partly because Buck honestly just looks like a man. so it's not difficult to do. And Buck's my good friend, and I know that I'm not participating in a delusion with Buck,

Starting point is 00:06:05 because Buck is not delusional. I won't use opposite sex pronouns for children ever. I won't use it for people I don't know. I'll just use their name, things like that. But I do have sort of a personal friend exception so long as I know that they're not personally delusional and I'm not participating in a delusion. Hey, this is Steve Daste. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand.

Starting point is 00:06:32 that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer

Starting point is 00:06:48 false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day Show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever

Starting point is 00:07:06 you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. I wonder also if you see a difference between, so someone like Buck who is a female, definitely looks male. So I agree with you on that. But we're not really concerned. I think most people aren't really concerned with like the safety and fairness aspect of a female who tries to present as a male, you know, going into the men's bathroom or going, you know,

Starting point is 00:07:42 trying to compete against men, even though I believe that to be morally wrong to try to gender bend and all of these things, like, we're not as concerned about men's rights being violated by these women who want to identify as men. So I think it's, there's like a little less sympathy, it seems. I mean, even from me, a little less sympathy for even someone who is like, you know what, I know. I know. I'm biologically male. If they say, I know I'm biologically male, but I still want to present as a woman. And so I am going to go into your bathroom. Like, I am going to go into your locker room. I am going to be in your spaces because, I mean, it's kind of like Caitlin Jenner, who I think acknowledges the reality of male and female and even the distinctions and male female sports, but still considers himself fully a woman and would enter women's spaces. Like, that is still participating in a delusion, even if they understand their sex. It's like, well, you're still trying to categorize yourself as something that you're not, and I don't want a man in my spaces.

Starting point is 00:08:42 Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. I mean, I would not support any of, you know, any women, or sorry, any of my friends who identify as trans women from entering female spaces. I definitely do not support. Yeah, going into female spaces if they're male. So, yeah. I totally agree there.

Starting point is 00:09:00 I want to transition to a conversation about atheism versus Christianity. And the reason why I ask. why? Like, why is sex more important than how someone identifies? And I think that you've explained it very well from a scientific perspective that identities don't compete, bodies compete. There are contexts in which, like, the body is just important and the identity really, the stated identity, really doesn't matter. But still, I understand from someone's perspective who kind of how, in my language, I would say, sees themselves as God. So sees themselves as the definer and the arbiter of all things. If they say, I really am a woman because what I feel on the inside is authenticity, is authentic

Starting point is 00:09:47 to who I am. And I get to determine my own truth. I get to determine my own reality. And of course, I am going to go into these spaces that align with how I really truly feel. And this body is just kind of a clump of cells. It's just kind of a bunch of matter. And I get to dress it up. and call it whatever I want to because who I really am is how I feel on the inside. Like to me, that is an anti-Christian belief that I can understand from someone who is godless, who believes that biology can kind of be dictated by, or like reality can be dictated by how we feel. And so that is like, that's where I'm coming from. At the end of the day, the reason why biology matters, the reason why sex matters is because there is someone who says so.

Starting point is 00:10:34 an authority that's higher than me, that's higher than you, that's higher than biology, who says he created us male and female. So it doesn't matter really how you feel. From your perspective, obviously, you're coming from an evolutionary perspective. You don't believe in any kind of intelligent designer. And you've said before,

Starting point is 00:10:50 you actually think atheism is an important aspect of this debate, correct? I think it's an important aspect of a lot of debates. And, you know, I wouldn't know if it's, I wouldn't say it's an important aspect of, Of this specific debate, I tend to be closer to the, you know, my Christian friends, because they at least tend to acknowledge the reality of biological sex. We might disagree on how the sexes were created and how we got to the position that we are. But we agree on the facts and the shared reality that we're staring at to that degree. You know, whereas when I talk to people who are sort of more on the woke side of things, you know, they don't even think there's a shared reality.

Starting point is 00:11:34 think the reality is constructed through language, et cetera, et cetera. So I have way more in common with my Christian friends who believe that, you know, God created man and woman and that's the end of it, than I do with the people who don't even think truth is a real thing to be, that we're looking at. We can't even look at the same thing and agree that we're looking at the same thing. Right. And you responded recently to an interview, I think it was between Charlie Kirk and Tucker Carlson. And Tucker said, you know, he just doesn't have any tolerance anymore for atheism. He said, my tolerance for atheism has really dwindled to nothing. And, or I guess maybe this is Charlie Kirk actually saying this. But the idea that people who are completely certain as a matter

Starting point is 00:12:16 of religious faith, that there's no God, I just find it hilarious and so childish that I can't take it seriously. I can't tell who is actually saying what. I think that was Tucker. Okay, Tucker. Yeah, it kind of sounds like Tucker now that I'm reading it. So, and you responded to this saying, You know what? The right needs more atheism. Like you don't need to alienate us is kind of what you said. We already feel in large part politically homeless. So what do you mean by you think kind of the right actually needs more atheism than it has right now? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:12:50 So what I don't mean is that I think the people on the right are Christians need to convert to atheism and denounce their God. You know, I'm an atheist. I lack the belief in a God. And, you know, as a position I'm willing to defend in conversations, and I think I think it's true. But that doesn't necessarily mean that I want everyone who are on the right to then just, you know, convert and that they need to or any degree or anything like that. What I mean is that I think that there are a lot of atheists who are disaffected from the left because I used to be part of the new atheist movement, if you want to call it that, that was taken over by a lot of the woke ideology. It's kind of a canary in the coal mine for a lot of the takeover of institutions that we're seeing right now. Atheism was one of the first to fall to this ideology.

Starting point is 00:13:42 And me and a lot of other people who were in the movement, including a lot of prominent figures like Richard Dawkins and Stephen Pinker, you know, they're very much opposed to that woke takeover that happened to that organization. So a lot of us feel politically homeless. and we feel more affinity to the values that we see that are over on the right that are shared by many Christians, even though if we're not Christian ourselves. So I guess what my plea, when I say that the right needs more atheism, means that they need to, I think, make their tent large enough where what they're organizing around isn't necessarily saying that you need to believe in the source of these values that we have. We need to share the same ideas of where these values came from, but rather we should be focusing on, well, first and foremost, do we have shared values? So if we just have a values first requirement to join this coalition,

Starting point is 00:14:42 then I think we can then later debate about where these came from, whether that's important. I think that's actually secondary to whether or not we agree on just sort of some core principal values related to free speech. you know, sort of freedom, the limits of certain governments. You know, these are the things that I think matter most in terms of morality and connecting with people. Then, you know, was this the result of evolution or was this, you know, done by divine

Starting point is 00:15:15 creator? So, so yeah, I think that, I hope that makes sense. This is, uh, yeah. We need to have a values first approach because I find myself having more affinity to the values of the right than I do with a lot of people on on the left right now. Do you feel that atheism is like a good antidote to what has become basically a woke religion on the left? I don't think atheism in itself is really, it's not a moral code.

Starting point is 00:16:02 So it's just sort of, in the way I conceive of atheism, it is a lack of belief in a god or a gods, and then there are other sort of moral worldviews and frameworks that you need to take on to give your life meaning, for instance. I think that it's probably true that we can peg a lot of the disillusionment, a lot of the radicalism, a lot of this embracing of woke ideology with sort of a decrease in religiosity. But that doesn't mean, I think, that atheism is therefore, needs to be equated with being woke or it's a necessary consequence because there's a lot of atheists who

Starting point is 00:16:42 didn't go that direction. I think a major mishap of new atheism, and I'll actually, I'll blame Dawkins for some of this too, because I remember agreeing with Dawkins before when he would be asked a question like, well, when you get rid of religion, what do you replace it with? And I think Dawkins, I think this is Dawkins. If it wasn't him, I apologize, Dawkins, but he would say something like, what do you replace a tumor with when you remove it from you know, a body, you know, just sort of saying, you know, don't need to replace with anything. We just live our lives and read books and poetry and, you know, be in awe at the stars and that type of thing. I think that's probably fundamentally wrong and that we do need to actually put

Starting point is 00:17:24 something in its place and advance a sort of a set of morals and values that we can abide by that are rooted in evidence and reason that create meaning in our lives. I don't know exactly how that would look, but I think that it's possible. And I think that is something that needs to be really focused on among people who are sort of non-believers, because otherwise, you know, the vacuum will be filled by things that, well, like woke ideology, which is they're denying as a religion, but has all of the, all the hallmarks of being one without any of the forgiveness. Yeah. I think the issue with that, well, I agree with you. I see what you're saying about, okay, we can agree on a certain set of values, a certain set of principles that we're going to

Starting point is 00:18:10 uphold free speech, things like that, that sex is real, and that we, it's kind of a secondary debate in your mind about, like, where do these come from? Why do we believe these things? Like, I think it's interesting that you mentioned meaning. Why do they give human beings meaning? Why is it even important to have meaning? Like, what is meaning? All these things, of course, can't be answered by biology. Beauty can't be answered by biology. Morality can't even be answered, exclusively by evolution. There is just such a lack of substance for the why of anything. Like the why. Yes, there is biology. Yes, we can agree on the facts. But why and from where does something come? Without being able to answer that, you do get what is, in my opinion, like very grotesque moral

Starting point is 00:18:54 conclusions because human beings don't really have any innate value according to atheism. We can't be anything other than clumps of cells and balls of matter. And so it's hard for me to understand like how I would really come together with an atheist and say, yes, this is our set of values. Like, what even is a value if not something that's derived from like a set of principles that's transcendent? And so, yeah, I think that's probably why. I think that's probably why they said what they said and why it's hard for a lot of Christian conservatives on the right to be like, yes, you know, atheism because we're not coming from the same place. Usually we don't come to the same conclusions, either, don't you think?

Starting point is 00:19:38 Yeah, I totally agree that often we don't arrive at the same conclusions. And I would also agree that, you know, there's going to be a wide range of conclusions that atheists come to that are going to be at odds with Christians. But then I would say that there's also a lot of conclusions that atheists would come to that are at a wide disagreement with other atheists. And I think there's a lot of conclusions that Christians would come to that are at odds with a lot of Christians as well. I think there's aspects of the Bible, I would say, that a lot of Christians tend to ignore that are bad, you know, stoning people for homosexuality or trying to take you away from your gods or whatever, things like that.

Starting point is 00:20:21 There's a lot of things that are glanced over. And I think they're glanced over because there's been sort of a given take with secularism that is sort of attenuated a lot of some of the more. extremes that have come from Christianity and Judaism. And it's sort of, I think it is sort of this given take that we have where the ideas that a lot of atheists and a lot of Christians tend to agree on, we agree on them because they sort of point at something that is that is sort of shared by our common humanity rather than our common belief system. But then, yeah, there's going to be, I just want to emphasize the disagreement within and

Starting point is 00:21:01 between all of these worldviews and on certain important questions as well. I see what you mean. I mean, certainly there's plenty of like deep disagreements within people who, um, identify as Christian and who may all say that we believe in the Bible, but different interpretations and things like that. And so I definitely take your point. Before we in, I am, I am curious. Like I always ask atheists this.

Starting point is 00:21:37 Like, is there really, is there really a good and an evil? Like, where, where does? morality come from according to the atheists? Because you do, you have like a moral compass. You believe that there is a right and a wrong. Beyond biology, like you believe that it's wrong for a man to compete against a woman. You use the word unfair. What does unfair even mean? Like, where does that come from? Why is it wrong for the person who is most powerful to just beat out everyone else? So like what would be your answer to that? Mine would be a biblical answer. What's your answer for like, what is injustice? What is unfairness? How do we determine that? Yeah. It's an incredibly

Starting point is 00:22:14 complicated question. You know, I think our morality is the product of evolution. I think that we have sort of these moral sentiments that we've had that are useful in different contexts, and we're constantly trying to sort of figure out what they are and how they shape our view of right and wrong. I think there are objective standards we can look at in the world about, you know, looking at ourselves and what causes suffering in us and extrapolating that to other people and saying, well, you know, I wouldn't want to be, you know, tortured. So, you know, committing torture on someone else is is not good because it's not something that I would want to have done to myself. I think you can recapitulate a lot of sort of Christian rules like the golden rule from secular principles. But I ultimately, you know, I don't tend to look in the world in terms of good and evil.

Starting point is 00:23:10 I can see where people get those ideas, and I can see really bad things that I think are happening where I would say, you know, that a Christian might call evil, and I would say this is just a deeply disturbed human being who has no sense of suffering in others. They have no empathy, no sympathy, and explain it in terms of just sort of, you know, the way I would look at a great white shark or a grizzly bear who's attacking someone where there's something. something wrong with their brain that's causing them to wreak havoc on society and they should therefore be jailed because they do that. I think there's some negative aspects of looking at the world, I think, in terms of good and evil, because I think that can contribute to a lot of tribalism of, you know, if you're just going to mark certain people as they're just evil, these people are just good. that sort of black and white thinking, I think, can lead to a lot of atrocities being committed,

Starting point is 00:24:12 where it's just like these people are just irredeemably evil. That's all we need to stop our investigation there. Whereas I think, you know, a more nuanced take would be to look at people who are, to say that a lot of the battles we're doing is sort of a battle between good and good to a lot of, to a large degree where people who are just confused about what the best outcomes are being misled by people. Again, it's enormously complicated. I don't have a very elevator pitch for you of, you know, the complete basis of our morality. But it's definitely something that can be negotiated and talked about.

Starting point is 00:24:53 And I think it's kind of doing that secular moral philosophy is an important part of being a good person, you know, trying to justify the reasons that you have for doing things and not doing things. It's so interesting. Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. You know, like atheists, I hear you use like a lot of moral language, empathy, sympathy, good person, things like that, treat other people, how you want to be treated. I don't know that there is necessarily an evolutionary answer for that. Of course, I would say that it's been written on our hearts as people who are made in the image of God is that we want justice. Like, we're we inherently see something wrong when the big guy is picking on the little guy. Of course, you could argue that evolution has been the big guy picking on the little guy. And that's why those of us who are here are here. And yet we don't like that. When we see that today, like there are laws against that kind of thing. Like, we don't like that kind of victimization. I would say that it's because we're created by that. And I know that atheists really try to grapple with, you know, living a good life and wanting to be moral, not realizing that they've adopted all of their morality, I think, from Christianity.

Starting point is 00:26:03 but like I would just just to say just for the people listening is that Christianity does not believe that anyone is irredeemably evil or that there are people over here who are always good people over here who are always bad maybe there are people who purport to believe that but that's not what Christianity teaches we believe that everyone is evil actually like everyone is sinful everyone is in need of a savior that the only one that is perfectly good that is God and that's why we believe in Christ we believe in the ultimate sacrifice who paid for our imperfections, who paid for our sins, who reconciled us to a holy God, who made us righteous and made us holy. And like Christians should have the utmost humility because we believe

Starting point is 00:26:43 that we understand just how hopeless and just how fallen all of us are. And that everyone, like God can redeem absolutely anyone, I should say, through the blood of Christ. That's what Christians believe, not that any one group is evil over the other. And then I would also say, but we do believe in a standard. We believe that there is evil and that there is wrong and that there is good. That stealing bread from the bakery is wrong. Maybe it doesn't hurt anyone. Like maybe that bakery is fine.

Starting point is 00:27:14 But it is wrong because there is a moral law that is written on our hearts. And that's why laws exist. If there was no greater moral law, then anarchy would be completely justified. I think it would just be survival of the fittest. So that's my take on it. but I appreciate the fact that we can link arms on something as important as sex. I'm very thankful for you that you are tackling this from the biological perspective. For some people, that's the only perspective that they're willing to hear.

Starting point is 00:27:42 And you're speaking up about it, even at great cost to you. So I really appreciate that. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate what you're doing too. And I enjoy having these conversations. You know, part of me being sort of excommunicated from the left has got me a lot closer to people who are on the right and people have. would never have had sort of these conversations with. And it's just been an incredibly humanizing

Starting point is 00:28:03 experience, just talking to a lot of people and connecting in ways that I never thought I could before. So thank you. And I include this conversation as part of that as well. So thank you so much. Definitely. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Wright. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on. Thank you. Hey, Relator Bells and Relator Bros. If you could please leave us a five-star review, wherever you listen to Relatable, that would mean so much to us. And it really does. help the show. Also, if you haven't subscribed to our YouTube channel, please deal. Thanks. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues

Starting point is 00:28:59 facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever. they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 869 | Does the Right Need More Atheism? | Dr. Colin Wright (Part Two)

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