Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 873 | Is 'Emotional Abuse' Cause for Divorce? | Guest: June Hunt

Episode Date: September 14, 2023

Today we're joined again by June Hunt, author, singer, and founder of Hope for the Heart, a worldwide biblical counseling ministry, for part two of our discussion on forgiveness. We start off explaining forgiveness in Jesus' context and how we should emulate him. Then we discuss the seriousness of domestic abuse and how emotional abuse is the end result of all abuse. June explains that God did not create us to be abused and it’s not healthy for people to get way with wrongdoing. We also talk about the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation and share the first step toward forgiveness. Stay tuned until the end, when June treats us to a song! --- Timecodes: (01:17) Jesus' forgiveness (08:36) Forgiveness vs. tolerance of abuse (11:05) Domestic violence (16:58) Consequences of abuse (18:15) Forgiveness vs. reconciliation (25:37) What is the first step of forgiveness? (32:43) June sings --- Today's Sponsors: Good Ranchers — get $30 OFF your box today at GoodRanchers.com – make sure to use code 'ALLIE' when you subscribe. You'll also lock in your price for two full years with a subscription to Good Ranchers! Birch Gold — protect your future with gold. Text 'ALLIE' to 989898 for a free, zero obligation info kit on diversifying and protecting your savings with gold. Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage — Focus on the Family's new marriage podcast is a voice you can trust. Dr. Greg and Erin Smalley host the show each episode dives into something really relevant, like communication, intimacy, money issues, or daily stress. You can find Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage on Apple, Spotify or your favorite listening source. Magic Spoon — get your next delicious bowl of high-protein cereal at magicspoon.com/RELATABLE! Be sure to use promo code RELATABLE at checkout to save five dollars off your order! --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed. You can watch

this D-Day Show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. How do we forgive those who have betrayed us, those who have heard us without being a dormant? How do we balance justice and accountability with forgiveness and biblical reconciliation? Author, speaker, founder of Hope for the Heart of Biblical Counseling Ministry, June Hunt is with us today for part two of this two-part conversation. Go back, listen to yesterday's episode to listen to her amazing testimony if you haven't done that already. Also at the end of the episode, you are going to get a treat. Ms. June is going to play us this beautiful song. She's going to play on her guitar and sing for us. Such an encouraging and just a heartwarming episode,

even as we talk about things that are really difficult, like domestic violence and things like physical and emotional abuse, but so crucial for Christians to know biblical answers to questions about these very tough and sensitive subjects and to find our comfort and solace in Christ. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use Code Alley at checkout. That's good ranchers.com. Code Allie.

When I began to see, okay, I have held on to unforgiveness. I think the hardest part for me was I had all these thoughts of what forgiveness is, but it's not. Like I thought it was letting somebody off a hook. And again, logically, that did not make sense to me. So I remember one time I did a conference on forgiveness and I asked all these people, I said, what do you think forgiveness means? That was my first question. One of the first answers was it means being a doormat.

Well, if that's a case, Jesus would have been the biggest doormat in the world because when he was being crucified on the cross, His crucifiers did not come to him and say, oh, we're so sorry, we really shouldn't be doing this to you. No, they were laughing at him and mocking him. So for him to say, Father, forgive them, they know not what they do. He exhibited a forgiveness that was not, but to say he's being a doeret, No, that's not being a dormant. Well, another person said it means being a weak martyr.

And I thought, a weak martyr. No, it's being strong enough to be Christ-like. So there are these things that I began to be aware of that I had thought and others had thought. Some people say, well, I don't feel like it. Well, forgiveness is not a feeling. It's a choice. It's an act of the will. And I think the most important is to grasp that it's like here is a meat hook and it can hold a lot.

Like if I were to put it around me, now typically I put it around somebody else, not me. I do it and do it this way and then I have a burlap bag. Yes. And I put the burlap bag on the meat hook, and it hangs because I've asked how many of you know what it's like where you cannot forgive someone? And that would have been me at one time. And I'm looking. And the other night I did this. And with, I do this at prisons.

except they won't let me take in a meat hook in a prison. But I do this. And what I say is forgiveness is not letting a person off the hook. And by the way, when I'm asking someone with me, the other night, it was somebody said, my husband allowed my daughter to die and then took my other child and he had money. I did not have money and I lost

custody of my little boy and she was crushed you know, weeping and these things that this man had done and so every time she said anything I would put a rock

a these are boulders of bitterness they're big boulders of bitterness. They're big boulders of bitterness and rocks of resentment. And it got so heavy. She said, oh, this is really heavy. And I said, well, God did not create you to carry that weight.

So you have a choice. You can take that person, your former husband, off of your hook. But you're not letting him off the hook. You're putting him onto God's hook. You take him off of your hook. putting them onto God's hook. He says, it is mine to avenge, I will repay. So you're not letting him off the hook.

That was my biggest objection to forgiveness. And I saw I was wrong. We don't let them off the hook. We take them off of our hook, so the battle is not with us. But if we put them, give all the pain to the Lord to release all that pain into God's hands. And then we literally allow the Lord to deal with that person

because now you're going to release that person to God and he says, it's mine to avenge, I will repay. So now God will be dealing with that person because he's not fighting you. He can still be cruel, the other person. He or she can be cruel. but we need to continue to release that pain to the Lord and to release the person to the Lord. Hey, this is Steve Day.

If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts.

I hope you'll join us. What is the difference between forgiving someone, kind of releasing yourself of these boulders of bitterness and rocks of resentment? and unhealthily tolerating abuse. So if a woman is in a situation where she's being physically or, you know, emotionally abused, she wants to forgive, but at the same time,

that doesn't necessarily mean tolerating the treatment that you're receiving, correct? Well, first of all, the Bible is very clear about wrong treatment. Like, for example, the Bible is very explicit do not make friends with a hot-tempered man do not associate with one easily angered. So that person has a biblical right to move out of harm's way. If we read, do not associate with one easily angered, there is no reason that is,

is justifiable to be in an angry situation. We're told bad company corrupts good character. The Bible says, I think this is a very interesting scripture. Proverbs 1919 says, do not make friends with the, let's see, sorry, 1990. Okay, I'll give the reference to the one I mentioned a moment ago. Proverbs 2224 is do not make friends with the hot-tempered man. Do not associate with one easily angered.

Again, that's Proverbs 22-24. And then Proverbs 19-19 says, A hot-tempered man must pay the penalty. Listen to this. Must pay the penalty. If you rescue him, you'll have to do it again. It's simply a cycle. And there's a classic cycle of abuse.

And as you and I were at the same event speaking, I spoke, the theme was going to be suffering. This is at the Ark Encounter. And I called and I asked, may I speak on domestic violence? Because one in three women are victims worldwide. of domestic violence. And that statistic is true even today in the United States. One and three women.

And so they said, well, we've not had anyone ever speak on that topic. Well, after I spoke, it was continually people coming up to me saying, and they would sometimes just do this. In fact, you and I were on the plane

when I was ready to disembark, to get off the plane. A woman on your row, you were a row behind me, and over to your right was a woman. And she said June, and I turned, and I was in the aisle, and she said, thank you for your presentation.

I am one, the one in three. And she said it was so helpful what you shared. And so we have people all around us. We don't know are victims of domestic violence. And therefore, there are many things that we need to take seriously. So if you're not to stay and be in a violent home, if you're being treated wrong, it can be verbal and emotional abuse, which can be verbal. is devastating because, you know, emotional abuse is the end result of any type of abuse.

It could be sexual, can be domestic, it's all the different types. It will impact people emotionally. And therefore, we need to realize that God did not create us to be abused. He has a plan and purpose for us. And so there are times when we need to make healthy choices. You say, well, I don't have a choice here. In my situation, I don't have a choice. Life is a series of choices.

There are people in place to help when abuse is taking place. There's not one place in the Bible that you'll ever find the word violence. right, meaning I looked up because I was in the former USSR after the fall of communism, the fall of the Iron Curtain. And I was speaking at a large conference with people from 23 regions of the former Soviet Union, and all of a sudden here were these women yelling at these other women. And I thought, had that happen, had never seen it since. And so I turned to my translator.

I said, what are they upset about? Because we had just finished whatever I was teaching on. And they said, well, the women on the left, they are saying that women must accept abuse. And these others are saying, no, that's wrong. they should not accept abuse. And so the head of the seminary came up and finally he raised his hands and said, June will meet with the men. These are all pastors, meet with the men on Saturday from 9 to 12 and address the topic of wife abuse.

And that wasn't scheduled. And so the night before I looked up every single verse in the Bible on violence. Now, one time is the word violence ever approved, ever right in God's side. So whenever there's treatment such as domestic violence, then we have a biblical right to move out of harm's way. And, you know, if we just stay in it, all that does is confirm to the person who's being the abuser that, okay, I can do this without any consequence. So it's possible also to seek, you know, legal accountability and legal justice and still forgive someone? Yes. It sees not healthy for people to get away with wrongdoing.

That's not good for anyone. You don't allow that for a child. Even if a child is stealing cookies from the cookie jar, they learn to steal more expensive items besides cookies. And it's not healthy for children to get away with wrongdoing. and every conscientious parent, a father and a mother, would know that that would be the case. Because if you let them continue on, that is the wrong message you're giving to just permit that which is not right in God's sight. And it actually prepares them to be receptive to the Lord who has for us the way to live.

And so the more we uphold what God says is true, then we are actually in the long run taking a stand to help people by example. And you can also forgive someone without being completely reconciled to them. Is that right? Wow. You hit, that's a fantastic question. I wrote a book called How to Forgive When You Don't Feel Like It. because I didn't feel like it. And there were, there was a, I'm trying to remember what they, he called himself, but he would write reviews. This man wrote reviews for all new books.

And he said, I want you to know, I did not think that much about, okay, I saw the title of the book and I just started to end and didn't think it'd be that helpful to, me personally. And then he said, but it changed my life. And I'm reading this. I don't know this man at all. And then he said, what I saw, in fact, he said, I was stunned at one section of your book. And it's what's the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation, because many people use those terms almost interchangeably as though, well, if you forgive, then you must reconcile. No, forgiveness takes place with only one person, the one who is choosing to forgive. Reconciliation requires two people. Said another way, forgiveness is a free gift you

give to one who is broken trust. Reconciliation is a restored relationship based on restored trust. So forgiveness is extended, even if it's never, ever earned. Reconciliation is extended because it has been earned. And so, and I'll be very specific. Let's say there is a, an abuser. there are times when a person has moved out of harm's way. Well, the question is, has that, you know, it's like, well, you should, you should reconcile. You must, or you must come back together. No, not if there has not been a change. And that's the whole point.

forgiveness is just unconditional regardless of a lack of repentance. Reconciliation is conditional based on repentance. Repentance is, imagine you're driving on a one-way street. I'm sure you've driven on one-way streets. I don't know if this has ever happened to you, but have you ever happened to realize, oh my goodness, I didn't expect this. I'm on a one-way street going the wrong direction, and there are cars coming toward me. Is that ever happened to you?

Yes, unfortunately. Yeah, well, it's typically happened to everyone. Well, now, once you realize you're going the wrong way on a one-way street, for your own good, you need to turn. Well, there are people who are rebellious, and they're not going to turn. but there are those who are willing to not be rebellious and to turn, and they're wise to do that. And the Bible has a lot to say about when we need to repent and go the other direction. It's a change of mind with a change of direction.

So the point is, I'll give a different illustration. Let's say, and you have a little girl, I know that. And let's say there's a neighbor who, at back at this couple, and the couple is so nice, because they'll keep your child in case you need help for a particular situation. You can't get back at your home at a particular time. And there's been a good relationship. later, you tragically learn that this man is a pedophile. Now, he acted nice to you.

Is there any way that you would then allow him to have access to your daughter? No. No. You would not be a conscientious mom if you allowed that. And the point is, you would not read. reconcile with that man. Now, you can choose, and that will be challenging. You can choose to forgive him.

That means you're releasing him to God. You're releasing him from you to God. And not holding that against him continually. but you would be right to report this because he could be a pedophile harming other children. And that you would not want that. So there can be still consequences. Just because there's forgiveness doesn't mean that there are no consequences to the person who has wronged. I think there are a lot of lessons packed in there. I mean, I'm sure there are people thinking, I'm thinking, I've never been in the situations that you described with any kind of domestic abuse, but there are people in my life who I know that I haven't forgiven in my past, not because of kind of the abuse that you just talked about, but either real betrayal or perceived betrayal by me, things that they have done that I deem unforgivable. And sometimes when I think about it, even though I know that I'm supposed to be.

to forgive. Sometimes I don't really even know how. Like I don't even know what prayer to pray or what to say. So if someone is in that situation all along the spectrum of either really, really being on the receiving end of some kind of abuse or just someone who feels like they've been slided or offended by someone. Like what's the first step that we take to really, truly releasing that? Well, I'll tell you what the Lord says. Pray for those who persecute you. Now, how do you pray? Some people think that means you're supposed to ask God to bless that person. No, with my dad, I prayed that he would have a changed life.

I later learned that his father beat his mother and the kids would escape. A relative told me he would either sleep on a church pew or sleep at his house in Illinois. I never heard any of this, and I didn't know why was my dad the way he was. What I can say is he had a rough upbringing. And before that, though, I had, because I saw the scripture pray for those who persecute you, the Bible actually says, love your enemies, and I thought, nobody could do that. Here I am, you know, a new Christian. I'm a teenager and I'm reading,

Love your enemies. I thought, that must be some ideal. And I just kind of put it over there with the forgiveness thing that I couldn't understand. But then I learned the word love actually is the, there are different words for love. There's Storgay. natural human affection. There's eros, which is passion. There is filo. That's the love of liking. You like someone. It's a friendship, wonderful type of love. And then there's agape.

Agape love when we read that God is love. We read that we are to love our enemies. It's agape. Agape means giving a person a gift they don't deserve. It is literally doing what is in their best interest. So consider if we love our enemies, what is in the best interest? I remember thinking, what do I do with that? And I remember, here I am. still in high school, I'm a new Christian. And I think instead of me being an opposition, continually, in opposition to Dad, because I would initially look at him like this with daggers in my eyes.

I thought somebody's got to let him know how wrong he is. Nobody is approaching him. Nobody's confronting him. And yet he has this lifestyle with these other women. And so I, then later I become a Christian. And I think, what do I mean, love your enemies? And I thought, okay, love doing what's in his best interest. I thought, well, what does he, what would be helpful? And so I go home and I think, all right, he has this fat address book with all of these names. Because as a president of a company, he would call people to do different things at night. and so but he would in the middle of dinner

where's my address book where's my address book he'd bark out these orders and so I remember going finding that address book this fat vinyl you know book of addresses and so sure enough that night

where's my address book and I said I know where it is dad I'll go get it very soft I just slipped out of my chair, went to his bedroom, picked it up, and then I just came back and laid it to his side. And he looked like, it's almost like his feet, his teeth fell out of his mouth because my attitude was different. And I began to look for ways that could be helpful. and my and I was praying that he would have since the Bible says love your enemies pray for those who persecute you it's my Matthew 544 and you know I'm just new at learning the Bible and and I I felt differently my focus was

what could I do to express the love of Christ because I was finding myself changing It took me a while on the forgiveness part, but I did learn to focus not on his fault. That was what I had been doing, but to focus on his need, and he needed a change life through Christ. Well, I could spend many, many hours talking to you, Miss June, but I want you to close us out with a song. Not everyone knows this, but you sing beautifully. You can play the guitar. You've inspired me. Maybe I'll take guitar lessons now.

But if you could just close us out with that song. I'd love to. Change my heart, oh God, make it ever true. Change my heart, oh God, may I be like you. Change my heart, oh God. Make it ever true. Change my heart, oh God. May I be like you?

You are the pot. The clay. This is what I pray. Change my heart, oh God, make it ever true. Change my heart, oh God. May I be like you. I am the clay. Mold me and make me. This is what I pray. Change my heart, oh God, make it ever true. Change my heart, oh God. May I be like...

Hey guys, if you love this podcast, please leave us a five-star review wherever you listen on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify. And if you haven't yet, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself.

On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.