Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 878 | Why Does Social Justice Divide the Church? | Guest: Voddie Baucham

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

Starting point is 00:00:19 We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day Show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Dr. Voddy Bakum is a cultural apologist and author, the dean of the School of Divinity at African Christian University in Lusaka, Zambia. He has written several books. His most recent book is called Fault Lines, the Social Justice Movement, and evangelicalisms. looming catastrophe. Now he has developed a curriculum for churches based on fault lines to help us navigate as Christians what social justice versus real justice really looks like. How do we deal with this divisive issue of ethnicity and partiality? So we're going to get into all of that and more

Starting point is 00:01:18 today on this episode of Relatable, which is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use code alia at checkout. That's good ranchers.com. Code Alley. Dr. Baccom, thanks so much for joining us all the way from Zambia. Absolutely. It's my pleasure. Always enjoyed being with you. Yeah. So I know people have been on the edge of their seats since the last time we talked because, or the last time we were supposed to have an interview because as we were talking, you had to go address an emergency in your family. Everything is okay. But I've gotten so many messages since then saying, okay, but when are you doing the interview? When are you doing the

Starting point is 00:02:03 conversation? Because people, yeah, people love hearing from you. So let's talk about, let's talk about first, this new curriculum, the 10-part video curriculum series, fault lines. Obviously, this is the same name as your book that came out, I think, a couple of years ago now. I think it came, did it come out in 2022 or 2021? Yeah, the book actually came out in 2021. So it has been a couple of years. It's been a world win, but it has been a couple of years. And this curriculum is just kind of a follow-up on that, really a way for people who haven't been introduced to the book, to be introduced to it, for people who are familiar with it to either delve deeper into the material, to revisit the material, or to introduce the materials of others. And just give us a

Starting point is 00:02:52 refresher. A lot of people in this audience have already read it and they know what it is. Some people haven't though they don't know what are you talking about fault lines social justice why is all of this so important yeah you know the the subtitle is the social justice movement and evangelicalism's looming catastrophe and the whole idea was that there was this divide and there continues to be to a lesser degree this divide within evangelicalism over the broader issues of social justice the broader issues of the ideas of equity and racial justice and so on and so forth. Really this sort of neo-Marxist idea of justice, if you will. And what I'm doing in that is sort of laying out what's happening,

Starting point is 00:03:45 sort of defining terms, identifying the players and the sides, and really trying to dissect this movement in a way that helps. people think about it biblically. And what I love about this curriculum is that you define so many terms that we hear all of the time very explicitly and specifically like white privilege, whiteness, equality versus equity. Why was it important for you, both in the book and in this curriculum, to really distill and make explicit what these terms actually mean? A couple of reasons.

Starting point is 00:04:26 One is that in many instances, Christians were talking past each other, right? You'd be having a conversation and using terminology, but two people would be using it different ways. So that was one reason. I wanted to help people get on the same page. Another reason is there are some people who intentionally use these terms because they are deceptive. They know exactly what they mean. They know exactly what they're after. and they know that Christians, for example, are all about justice.

Starting point is 00:04:59 Christians are all about equality and so on and so forth. And so they use terms like racial justice and, you know, other terms like equity that, you know, sound innocent enough. But they're trying to communicate a different ideology and at the end of the day, another gospel. So I wanted to sort of help people have these discussions, both with folks who are honest, who just need to define terms, but also with people who are less than honest so that we can smoke them out. Yeah. You know, this is a really tough, and I mean, as you explained through the title, divisive debate

Starting point is 00:05:41 for Christians, even Christians who agree seemingly on most other issues, agree theologically in a lot of ways. Agree on social issues. We agree on gender and abortion. And yet when it comes to this, I saw this in 2020, I still see it today with discussions around things like affirmative action or black history curriculum and things like that. Christians not being able to get on the same page when it comes to the issue of justice, when it comes to the issue of oppressor versus oppression, what is the legacy of slavery?

Starting point is 00:06:16 How should we talk about slavery? how should we talk about ethnicity? Like, why is this the issue that drives not just like the world and Christians apart, not just so-called progressive Christians and theologically conservative Christians, but even those of us all in the same kind of theological camp, like this seems to be race, ethnicity, justice, all that seems to be the issue that just drives us apart. Why is that? I think it's because people know that,

Starting point is 00:06:48 it's a sensitive point for America and for Americans, right? It's part of our history that haunts us unlike most people or unlike anybody else, really, in the world. It's interesting that slavery is, it's universal. Slavery existed in every culture known to man, right? What's unique about American slavery is, you know, the, the manner in which we ended it within one lifetime after our founding. But people know that because Americans are very sensitive about that history, it's a way to get in, right?

Starting point is 00:07:37 It's a way to earn points. It's a way to get a hearing. And it's also a way to stop people in their tracks because of this sort of lingering guilt over the history of slavery. You can always just point at that and say, oh, yeah, well, you know, the history of slavery, you're not being honest about slavery. You're trying to, you know, whitewash slavery.

Starting point is 00:08:01 And Americans just, they don't want that to be the case. We're still very sensitive about it. And so it's a way to score points. Yeah, I think that that's the case. And then I think that there's also people who, Especially, I mean, I see just like a lot of white Christian women who are sincere. They think that by posting the black square or by talking or reading white fragility or doing the be the bridge curriculum, whatever it is, talking about racial reconciliation, that they truly are humbling themselves in a godly and Christ-like way, kind of like repenting for not just necessarily the sins of their ancestors, but internalized white supremacy, the sins of people who once lived. lived in the same general geographic region as them who may have had a similar melanin count

Starting point is 00:08:51 than them, they think they're doing the right thing by, you know, just talking about the stories in which a black person is killed by the police and not a white person. But tell us, like, tell us why that's not actually godly humility that is going to lead to a place of unity within the body of Christ. Yeah, partly because it's not repentance. It's actually penance. You know, repentance is about my sin, right? Repentance is about me acknowledging sins that I have committed and sin as it's defined by God, not as it's defined by my culture. Sin that came from me, not sin that came from my ancestors.

Starting point is 00:09:37 The other thing is, when you buy into this ideology, when you buy into this white fragility, be the bridge, you know, so on and so forth. anti-racist ideology, you buy into an ideology that is about doing the work of anti-racism. And that work of anti-racism is not repentance, it's penance. It's continually paying for sins that will never fully be atoned for. It's antithetical to the gospel, and it gets us nowhere in the end. Hey, this is Steve Deast. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day

Starting point is 00:10:28 and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed. You can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. And why do you think, like, again, I just keep going back to the people who I know are not stupid. I know really love the Lord. Like, why do you think this is one thing? Even beyond just scoring points, this is the thing that

Starting point is 00:11:17 trips people up, black and white Christians alike. And it's almost like, you can't even really have a conversation with some of them. Like there's a debate going on right now as we're recording this about like the Florida curriculum saying that some slaves after they were freed benefited from some of the skills that they learned while enslaved. Does not say slavery was good. Doesn't say slavery was justified or anything like that. It notes that fact.

Starting point is 00:11:41 And I'm seeing Christians, conservatives just, I mean not just talk past each other and not even be able to get on the same page here. It's just really baffling to me how on this. thing, it seems like we can't talk objectively, we can't talk truthfully, and we can't talk biblically. You know, I'm tired of it, to be honest with you. I don't have patience for it. Listen, I have lived for the last eight years in Lusaka, Zambia. And I know for a fact that God used that horrible time and

Starting point is 00:12:23 period of history to bring me to a place of blessing. And I can acknowledge that. I have absolutely no shame in acknowledging that. I'm able to be here and to be a blessing in a large part because of God's providence in my life generationally that took me away from here, mainly because my black ancestors sold me, right? And I'm able to acknowledge that. And I think what we have to do is we've got to just stop, right? We've got to say enough. We've got to call people to account.

Starting point is 00:13:09 And we've got to stop letting people make us feel guilty about things that we haven't done, about things that we've had no part in, about things that nobody. we know had any part in. Enough already. Yeah. Yeah, I'm tired of it too. I'm tired. I thought that we kind of had moved past it after 2020, but that's why I'm thankful for this curriculum, because this is something that people continue to get confused about and just, as you said, talk past each other without having the same definitions of things and the same perspective on things. Session two of this curriculum talks about someone who was killed by the police. And you say that you remember where you were or how you're.

Starting point is 00:13:50 felt when you heard that this person was killed by the police and that this person wasn't receiving justice. But you're not talking about George Floyd. You're not talking about some of the other names that we hear, you know, paraded out by activists and by the media. You're talking about someone named Tony Tempa. Why do you bring up Tony Tempa's name in this curriculum? I do bring it up. And several people have talked to me about that. And they say, you got me. because, you know, the way I tell the story, it sounds like I'm talking about George Floyd. Right. But I'm actually talking about Tony Tempa, a man whose name most people don't know,

Starting point is 00:14:31 who was killed by the police in a way very similar to what happened to George Floyd, but was actually much more sinister and vicious than what happened to George Floyd. than what happened to George Floyd. But, of course, we don't know his name because Tony Temple's White. And that's the point that I make in the book. And also I'm able to make in a very different way in the video curriculum that I hope sort of brings it home for people. The fact of the matter is, you know, every one of these instances that we talk about,

Starting point is 00:15:08 I mean, you know, you name it, Tamir Rice, George Floyd, You know, you name them. And I can point to at least one and probably multiple non-black people and multiple white people to whom the same thing has happened. Yeah, and people forget about that. And when you bring it up, a lot of people just don't, they don't know. They don't realize that. They kind of bought into the media narrative that this only happens to black people. I think of Justine Damon, too.

Starting point is 00:15:40 She was also in Minneapolis. list. She came out to talk to a policeman. She was, you know, just a young white woman from Australia. She walked out to talk to the police officer in her pajamas about a report that she had just made. And the police officer, who was a black police officer, shot her point blank, killed her, only got 12 years in prison, obviously a lot less than what Derek Chauvin got. And most people, as you said, don't know the story of Tony Temple. They don't know the story of Justine Damon. And in a lot of cases, they don't feel the same compassion. And they don't want to bring it up, I guess, scoring points out of fear, whatever. But at the end of the day, that's the kind of partiality

Starting point is 00:16:22 that God says that he hates. Like, that's the kind of discrimination and justice that God abhors, right? Exactly. That's unequal weights and measures. You know, when we have a narrative that we're committed to when we have a picture in our mind and when we are convinced of it. And we decide that anything to the contrary has to be dismissed. And anybody who brings up anything to the contrary has to be dismissed. That's not an honest discussion, which is ironic, because I keep hearing, you know, we need to have a conversation about race, which, I mean, what, else have we been having a conversation about my whole lifetime, right? And so you bring things like

Starting point is 00:17:13 this up and all of a sudden it's like, well, well, not a conversation that includes that. You know, and so again, I'm done with it. It's time to just tell the truth. It's time to have honest discussions with honest people and call out those who are not being honest. I'm curious. Just your experience, you grew up in South Carolina, right? No, I grew up in Los Angeles. I did spend a year in South Carolina. Okay, maybe that's where I got older. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:17:46 So when I got old enough to find a little trouble in South Central Los Angeles, my mother shipped me out and I went and lived for a year with her oldest brother, the retired drill instructor in the Marine Corps. Right. Okay, I knew there was a South Carolina tie in there. So South Carolina, California, growing up, you've talked about your story on a previous episode of this podcast that we can listen to if people want to hear about it. And as you said, you lived the last eight years in Zambia. I'm just curious, before I get into some other things in

Starting point is 00:18:17 this curriculum, like, can you compare and contrast a little bit? Like, what is the perspective of oppression and justice and things like that from the people that you know in Zambia, actual Africans, from the conversation about race and oppression and history here in the United States and privilege and all of those things. I mean, it's got to be pretty different, I would guess. It's very different because this is a very homogeneous culture. It's interesting, you know, being an American and not only an American, but a Houstonian, right? I spent most of my life in Houston.

Starting point is 00:18:54 I was born in Los Angeles and ended up, you know, went to high school in Texas and college in Texas, spent my adult life in Texas, and so most of my life in Houston before moving here. And a lot of people don't know this, but Houston is the most ethnically diverse city in America. And so going from the most ethnically diverse city in one of, if not the most ethnically diverse countries in the world, to a place that is anything but diverse. It was really quite shocking for me. And so those kind of discussions are very different. Now here, you hear more discussions about globalism and, you know, post-colonialism and

Starting point is 00:19:44 those sorts of things. And you hear a lot more classical Marxism here as well, as opposed to the kind of, you know, neo-Marxist, someone would say cultural Marxist ideologies that are being dealt with there. You hear a lot more sort of classical Marxism here holding sway with people. There's a Fidel Castro Street. You see pictures of Che Guevara on the back of, you know, the buses here. I know this is kind of maybe off topic, but, you know, that's strange. Where does that come from?

Starting point is 00:20:18 Yeah, especially when you know how our racist against black people, for example, Che Guevara was. you know, whenever people have experienced any kind of real oppression, a lot of African countries, Zambia, for example, only got its independence from Great Britain in 1964. Whenever that happens, you know, Marxism sounds really good when you first sort of break free from something like that. And the Marxists are always very quick to get their foot in the door. And so, you know, places like Russia and, you know, other places like that are very quick to sort of get their foot in the door in places like this. So, you know, I mean, there are a lot of reasons for it. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:21:14 A lot of the background here. A lot of sort of tribal and collectivist ideas as well that find more Marxist ideal. more similar. There's a lot of reasons for it, but it's here. That's interesting. You know, I think about we have friends from Zimbabwe who became citizens a couple years ago. And of course, she lived there under Robert Mugabe, who was, I mean, he was a communist. And a lot of the things that he told the people of Zimbabwe are very similar to like the things we hear today that the white people here, you know, they stole your land.

Starting point is 00:22:07 They're the reason you're poor. They're the reason that you're oppressed. And so we need to basically get rid of these white immigrants who are here and commercially farming. And so they did. They shut down a lot of the farms that were run by white people. And in a lot of cases, that included violence. But the problem was that Zimbabwe went from the breadbasket of Africa and this very

Starting point is 00:22:30 industrious place with a lot of commercial farming to almost no commercial farming and going even more deeply into poverty. Robert Magabe, of course, using all the resources that he had to enrich himself and to not share it with the people at all. And yet he came into power promising that he is going to enact vengeance and justice on behalf of the indigenous Zimbabwean people

Starting point is 00:22:51 and to get the colonizers out and to give them health care and to, you know, get the indigenous people health care. I'm like, wow, that sounds like America. And now we see where Zimbabwe is. tons and tons of oppression and corruption and poverty, the idea is always into the same way. There are neighbors to the south. We live just to the north of Zimbabwe. And you're you're telling that story and I'm sitting here thinking two legs bad, four legs good. Right? It's animal farm. It's animal farm

Starting point is 00:23:24 all over again. I tell people all the time, you know, the two most, or the three most important books you can be reading right now are the Bible, animal farm, and nice. 1984, right? I mean, we're seeing those things. This movie, this movie has played before, right? We know, we know where this ends. Yep, totally. Another book that people need to read, and this is the title of one of the sessions,

Starting point is 00:23:51 the session number, well, I guess it's, yeah, session number four, that discrimination or disparities do not equal. They don't automatically prove discrimination. Thomas Sol wrote a book, discrimination and disparities, which I highly recommend people read. But this is also like a quick and easy way for people to get also what Thomas Sol is said and what a lot of people said. So what does this mean that disparities don't equal discrimination. This blows people's mind. Yeah, it really does.

Starting point is 00:24:24 And it shouldn't because there are disparities everywhere, right? When we talk about equality, we're talking about people having equal value and equal worth and equal dignity before God. And in the U.S., for example, in the West, before the law as well. But we're not talking about people having equal gifts, talents, and abilities, and therefore expecting equal outcomes. There are disparities, and there are disparities everywhere. There are disparities in achievements, academic achievements, and economic achievements between firstborn children and secondborn children, in the same family, in the same household. So, yeah, there are a lot of reasons for disparities.

Starting point is 00:25:18 And there are a lot of disparities that we don't really care about. For example, the NFL and the NBA are, what, 65 and 75% black, respectively? That's a disparity, but it's a disparity that we're okay with. So we don't automatically say that that is the result of discrimination. But, you know, we need to recognize things like this that are obviously false if you just take a few seconds to think about them. Yeah, a lot of people I've realized don't want to take a few seconds to think about. Here's the uncomfortable thing. And I got into a conversation with a Christian, like a prominent Christian that everyone would know if I said their name about this a few years ago. And I

Starting point is 00:26:05 brought this up that discrimination or disparities don't automatically mean discrimination. So people say that a lot. Oh, the graduation rate, the test score, whatever. There are disparities between black and white Americans that and that proves systemic racism and oppression and things like that. And when you say, well, it doesn't necessarily prove racism. There could be a variety of factors for that and the same way that there are a variety of factors for the disparities between Asian Americans and white Americans, Asian Americans being on average wealthier, higher test scores and all that than white Americans.

Starting point is 00:26:40 They will say- And Nigerians, by the way. Yes. And Nigerian Americans, yes. Tons of like non-white Americans are doing better overall than white Americans on average. But again, as you were saying, it's only the disparity between white Americans and black Americans that we're supposed to focus on and assume that it has to do a discrimination and racism.

Starting point is 00:27:01 And then the question that I got, which then it gets into this kind of like emotional thing, is, well, if it's not racism, if it's not the system, then you must be saying that there are like innate vulnerabilities or innate incapabilities in black people that prevent them from being as successful as white people. So if it's not discrimination, you must just think that black people are inherently inferior. But to me, I mean, that's a false choice, right? There are a lot of factors that are coming to play. Falacy of the excluded middle, right? There are other possible answers. it doesn't have to be innate. In fact, in most of these things,

Starting point is 00:27:48 these disparities aren't necessarily innate. When you look at cultures, and this is something that people don't want to do, which is ironic again, right? All this talk about cultures. We have to respect cultures. We can't appropriate cultures. We have to acknowledge cultures and so on and so forth.

Starting point is 00:28:07 And then when you talk about the differences between cultures because of the way that cultures function and the things that cultures emphasize, now all of a sudden people don't want to have that discussion. Again, let's have that serious discussion about race. Okay, fine. Let's talk about these issues. No, not that serious discussion. Only the serious discussion that plays by the ground rules that says everything has to be explained by racism.

Starting point is 00:28:39 Yep. Yep, it does because you, if you start talking about those uncomfortable things, then that is basically saying that black people have agency. And that's, I realize you're not allowed to say. You're not allowed to say that black people have agency, that they are individuals, just like the rest of us, that they have autonomy, that they have the ability to make choices. I realize like that that is the blasphemous thing that you are never even allowed to imply in these conversations. That first, yeah, go ahead. But you are not only allowed but expected to imply them when you talk about athletes and entertainers. When you talk about black athletes and entertainers, then people want to say, no, no, no, we're the best because we work harder. The last thing they want you to say is that it's innate, right? No, no, no, no, no, we work harder. We put in more time, you know, so on and so forth. then it's okay to have those discussions. And it's ironic because all you have to do is just change the setting.

Starting point is 00:29:48 And all of a sudden, the rules change as well. I really, really encourage people to get this curriculum, get this curriculum for your Bible study for your entire church. This is a tough thing to talk about. And not everyone has the time to be equipped with all of this vocabulary and all of the stuff. And that's okay. That's why you've done this. But this needs to be something that people are on the same page about when it comes to

Starting point is 00:30:24 their church. I've seen this divide churches really painfully. And so let's just look at what the Bible, what history, what facts have to say about it. And that's what this curriculum does. So before I talk to you about the last thing that we're going to be the bad guy. Yeah. Yeah. It's mean old Voddy Bakum.

Starting point is 00:30:42 You don't have to take responsibility for it. So where can people, where can people get it? Salem Now. Okay. Go to SalemNow. Thatorg and you can find it there. Watch. com.

Starting point is 00:30:58 We'll link it in the description of this episode so people can get it easily. Highly encourage everyone to get it. And then I do want to talk to you about the new, kind of new book that's coming out September 26th. The Everloving Truth can faith survive in a post-Christian culture. So this originally came out in 2004 coming out again. So why are we, why is it being republished? Yeah, it's almost 20 years later. And it's amazing how many of these things are still with us.

Starting point is 00:31:32 And how many of these things have just sort of grown up and manifested themselves in ways that we never could have imagined back then? This was my first book, actually. And so it's kind of a mix of classical apologetics and cultural apologetics. You know, I deal, for example, with questions like, you know, why I choose to believe the Bible, as well as some of these sort of broader cultural issues. Back then in 2004, I was mainly talking about secular humanism. And, you know, we're still dealing with secular humanism in many ways, but not. now it's more neo-Marxism, but making some of the same kinds of arguments from different

Starting point is 00:32:20 angles. And so that's why the decision was made to update and re-release this book. And I'm really excited about that. Yeah, you know, it is crazy. How many of these apologetics to finning your faith questions are just kind of, I mean, they're resounding throughout history, going all the way back to the church fathers, but then you even look at C.S. Lewis and then your book in 2004 and how they just kind of become repackaged with whatever cultural moment that we're in. We keep on coming up to the same kind of obstacles, and we do need people to be equipped to address them. So they can get that or we'll be able to get that wherever books are sold, right? Yeah, absolutely. Okay, perfect. Of course, Well, I almost say something there.

Starting point is 00:33:12 Yes, wherever books are sold. Okay. Although sometimes my books are not sold wherever books are sold. Yeah. Sometimes you have to go search and ask for my books. They're kind of hidden in the back of some places. I can't imagine why. I'm sure it's just, I'm sure it's just a coincidence.

Starting point is 00:33:30 And yet, fault lines incredibly popular, this book incredibly popular. I know that the curriculum will be too. People are like starving for clarity. and that's what these books offer. So thank you so much for being a refuge of clarity for so many people who just don't want to deal with it or don't know how. All right, Dr. Bacom, where can people follow you, find you, all that good stuff? Voddybockum.org is a place that I can be found.

Starting point is 00:33:59 So it's V-O-D-D-I-E-B-A-U-C-H-A-M dot ORG. And you've written lots of books and have a lot of work out there, a lot of sermons out there. So if people want to find those, they can go to vodybockham.org and find them all. Thank you so much, Dr. Bacham, for taking the time to come on. Absolutely. Thank you. God bless you.

Starting point is 00:34:21 Thanks, you too. All right, guys, hope you enjoyed that conversation. Right now I'm going to play a little clip from the promo of the curriculum about two minutes of this promo, just so you get a sense for. what this curriculum will be. So here's that. The Bible is very clear about the issue of justice. What does the Lord require of you to do justice, love mercy, and walk comely with your God. We know this from Micah 6-8. And so justice is not optional for the people of God. That's why it's so critical that we understand what justice is.

Starting point is 00:35:14 one of the dangers of the social justice movement is that it uses terminology that on the surface sounds like it ought to be what we as Christians are about. Social justice. Am I against justice? Of course not. I'm for justice.

Starting point is 00:35:36 Anti-racism. Am I pro-racism? Of course not. So what we need to do is get behind these terms. Get behind these words and look at two things. Number one, look at what people mean when they use them in this cultural moment. And number two, evaluate that in light of what the Bible says about the same issues. So, for example, when we talk about justice from a biblical perspective,

Starting point is 00:36:10 justice means the righteous application the impartial application of the law of God in a given circumstance. We're told that we're not to be impartial to the poor or to the rich. We have to apply God's law equally across the board. Social justice means something very different. And so if we're going to have conversations about justice, if we're going to have conversations about contemporary issues of our day, we're going to have to do so in light of what the Word of God has to teach about all of these

Starting point is 00:36:51 issues and while evaluating the cultural moment. Thanks y'all so much for listening. I really appreciate it. We will be back soon with more. Hey, this is Steve Deist. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

Starting point is 00:37:31 We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this Steve Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 878 | Why Does Social Justice Divide the Church? | Guest: Voddie Baucham

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