Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 880 | The Truth About Scientology | Guests: Jeremiah Roberts & Andrew Soncrant of 'Cultish' (Part One)

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

Starting point is 00:00:19 We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. What is Scientology? What does Scientologists believe? How did this belief system, this cult, becomes so powerful, filled with such prominent people. And why does it matter? We're going to talk about all of these things and so much more in this two-part series that we've got on. Scientology. We've got Jeremiah Roberts and Andrew Sankrant from the cultish podcast. You guys love these guys. I love these guys. And they are, of course, as they always do, going to bring the gospel every step of the way. I learned so much from this two-part series. I know that you will too. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com.

Starting point is 00:01:21 Use code Alley at checkout. That's good ranchers.com. Code Alley. Jeremiah, Andrew, thank so much for coming back and joining us on Relatable. We've got a lot to talk about, a lot to talk about. I want to talk about in this episode, Scientology. And this is just kind of, I want a basic rundown of what Scientology is. We tend to see it in the news. We see it as kind of like this crazy, kooky thing off to the side. But the truth is that the people in Scientology have a whole lot of power and seemingly a lot of influence.

Starting point is 00:02:01 So whoever wants to answer, can we like back up from the beginning? What is Scientology? Like, is there any relation to Christianity, Christian science? What the heck is it? Yeah, that's a great question. And so when you, I want to maybe hit this on different levels because it really depends on the entry point at which you find out about Scientology. For us, like I said, probably looking at something going on in the news. Like there's some news going on in California about the guy from that 70 show.

Starting point is 00:02:28 Or if you look at, you know, something going on with Tom Cruise or perhaps with John Travolta, There's a lot of different vantage points, but when you kind of look at Scientology from just a general interest point, if you go to their website, it kind of looks like a Tony Robbins sort of personal development course, but maybe on the Las Vegas strip. That's the way I would describe it. And so when you kind of look at it from that vantage point, it's more of like, hey, this is how I, how can I improve myself? How can I improve myself confidence? Are you having struggles with, you know, people approval? And I think this is also, has been one of the appeal to science. in the Hollywood world just because there's a lot of nervousness when it comes to trying to get auditions. And there's just a big part of it just is a big self-improvement point. But it would be very different from somebody who would grow up in Scientology from growing up in it. Or if you have somebody, for example, who is going through a personal problem and they go into it. So it really depends on which angle that you take. But if we go back to the very, very beginning, it was founded by someone named El Ron Hubbard.

Starting point is 00:03:35 And the precursor to him prior to the Church of Scientology, and there's going to be a couple of, there's a unique relationship of swords. Sometimes a Stockholm syndrome when it comes between Scientology and the U.S. government, specifically on whether or not they are religion or whether or not they can get tax exempt status. So you really looked at Elron Hubbard prior to this. He actually holds the Guinness Book of World Records for the most amount of books written specifically on science fiction. In fact, if you go into the last couple times I've been to a used bookstore, you can actually find books written by Elron Hubbard. In fact, one of the book, there's actually a movie that came out is probably one of the worst reviewed movies of all time called Battlefield Earth with John Travolta. And that's actually a book based off of a science fiction book written by El Ron Hubbard. So really, the idea is that a lot of people really don't know, like, what was Erron Hubbard's true motive for starting Scientology, for what a lot of people say, and this is articulated in the documentary in Lawrence Wright's book going clear, is that he initially wanted to see, how can I find a way to make the most amount of money? And that was to start his own religion, which would have given them tax-exempt status. So on the surface level, Scientology has an idea.

Starting point is 00:04:54 of being this self-improvement, very much dealing with mental health issues. So, Andrew, why don't you kind of jump in, talk about the beginning of Dianetics and about Dianetics and how that kind of relates to the initial appeal of Scientology, being kind of that, having that self-improvement, personal development aesthetic. Right. So Elron Hubbard posited a thesis within a book called Dianetics in 1950. It's called Dianetics, the Modern Science of Mental Health. in that he was making a position against modern psychology. He didn't like modern psychology.

Starting point is 00:05:28 You can actually look up a YouTube video of Tom Cruise talking with, I forget who the anchor person is. Matt Lauer. Yeah, he starts going off on psychology. It's actually pretty. Yes, I remember that and antidepressants and things like that, which some of the things that he was saying, true. Right, right, right.

Starting point is 00:05:44 So what's interesting, though, about what is positive within Dianetics is essentially that El Ron Hubbard makes a distinction between what is called, the analytical mind and the reactive mind. So the analytical mind in Dianetics is controlling of conscious awareness, rationality and reasoning, memory and retrieval of that memory, created creativity and imagination and problem solving and planning. But then there's the reactive mind, which is the subconscious mind. This is where things can be stored from past traumatic experiences, things that they call Ngrams within Scientology, which influence behavior, give you triggers, and that impacts the analytical mind. So the goal.

Starting point is 00:06:23 of Dianetics is through auditing, right, is when you go to a, what they would say is like a certified auditor where you're holding those two like metal cans and it's giving you a little meter, the e-meter that's going off. They ask you a series of questions and when it's triggering correctly, they locate an Ngram and then you can get rid of these Ngrams through a series of auditing. So that was the initial class that was given in order to get people kind of hooked. And this came out in the 1950s, but there's a whole worldview that's even behind Ngrams, presuppositions, the origin of what we would call is a human, right, in terms of how they view

Starting point is 00:07:01 what the soul is or what a person even is. It's pretty intense. It gets pretty deep, but these are things that actually you don't even learn in Scientology until you become an operating Thayton level three. So there's something called the bridge to total freedom within Scientology. And this is essentially, it's the classes that you have to take. Right. And each class you have to pay for. I forgot how much it costs, but I think it's somewhere around 150 to almost $300,000 just to become an operating Thayton level three. And I can go into the discussions of what even a Thayton is or what does it mean to be an operating Thayton. But essentially, just to even find out the origins of our world and who we are, you already have to pay at least $200 to $300,000, meaning that Scientology is like being a frog in a boiling pot of water, right? So you get in with Dianetics and you start taking these classes and the water is slowly being turned up.

Starting point is 00:07:53 You're going to be so far invested into Scientology by the time you learn about the origins of the universe. It's craziness, as far-fetched as they are, that you're probably just going to believe it. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against, first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

Starting point is 00:08:28 We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this T-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. So I'm going to say something really controversial.

Starting point is 00:08:57 and I'm look because I'm looking at Hubbard's statement about why he created Scientology. As you said, it was founded in 1953. He said, make money, make more money, make others produce so as to make money. Now, that is not all that different from a lot of the slogans of multi-level marketing companies, which I'm not saying are all cults. Like I'm not saying it's the same thing of Scientology. That's not what I'm saying. What I do think, think is interesting is that you do see the rise of certain kinds of cult-like business practices, multi-level marketing practices, also happen in the 1950s. And I'm just kind of wondering, like I'm wondering if there is any correlation there, because even this idea of the power of positive thinking, which some of that is biblical, that we're supposed to dwell on that, which is like lovely and excellent and true and all of that. But there does seem to be some crossover with like the prosperity gospel, Scientology, a lot of the rise in certain kinds of marketing and business practices in like mid-century America. I don't know. I just wonder kind of why all of these

Starting point is 00:10:12 things happened at the same time. And even the self-help movement really started to pick up the 1950s, 60s, 80s, of course, was like a big boom for all of this. And I just wonder if there's any connection or what was kind of going on in America that caused all of these things to boom around the same time? Yeah, that's a good question. I think from a, as far as the MLM standpoint, we just did a crossover with our friends from a sheelogens. And the marketing standpoint of MLM, just as a state real quickly, was really, you kind of think of like the madmen era where the men went to work, you had all the women who were staying home. And most of the time for a lot of companies, and this is also a lot of things like washer machines, vacuum, just there's a lot of

Starting point is 00:10:53 automation when it came to being a homemaker and they're trying to figure out how can I get these products into the household? Well, a lot of times, you know, women would make the, that would help would really be a catalyst for making the decisions of what purchases were made. So the thought was, like, how can I make women who are staying at home a distributor in comparison to a traveling salesman like a madman like character, like a John Hamm character knocking on the door? Well, if someone is just one of your girlfriends knocking on the door, door, hey, that's a great idea. I think there's a similarity in Scientology in the sense to where even then or even today, in order to go up a company and become a top earner or an ambassador, you kind of have to become your own personality.

Starting point is 00:11:33 And there is sort of this lifestyle or bridge to total freedom that's marketed specifically. And a lot of times what is propagated is not what you end up getting on the other end up end. So there'd be a similar aesthetic to that. Yeah, I think, well, every generation is unique where there's nothing new. of the sun, I think people are always wanting to go, like, the Lord has put eternity in the hearts of men. And so regardless of what era is around, there's always going to be that unique interest about finding more about ourselves and the world and the universe and all that, which is very interesting. So when Elron Hubbard published Dianetics, it was one of those instances of something going viral.

Starting point is 00:12:15 Elron Hubbard didn't really plan to have it be as popular as it was. In fact, it was a New York time's best sell for quite a bit of time. In fact, people were starting their own independent Dianetics groups. And so when he realized that was happening, that's when he's tried to put more of his teaching out there, try and compartmentalize and also compensate and get compensation. And eventually, there's a point where it kind of went big and kind of died off. And that's where Ron Hubbard really like, okay, well, what can I actually do to kind of rebound and make this about me and really get, because there's my, what I've, what I've wrote has a lot of appeal to a lot of people. And so that's where he came up with the idea to

Starting point is 00:12:56 formulate the religion of Scientology. And so that's what you end up seeing. There's a huge interest in self-improvement that must have just been what was going on in the culture at the time. But I do see, I guess I see somewhat of a similar aesthetic because when we look at having this bridge to total freedom, which we're going to talk about, it is somewhat similar. What are your thoughts, Andrew? Yeah, I'd say it's going to be. something that's peaked the American people from the 50s into the 60s because at that time we have a rise of the infiltration of new age and new thought and theosophy into our society in terms of MLMs. We got to distinguish between like there are legitimate MLMs in America and where it gets bad is when there's pyramid schemes and it's very easy for a pyramid scheme to develop from an MLM. We can think about it in terms of Keith Reneer and nexium.

Starting point is 00:13:47 Nexium is very much so based off of I'd say like the bridge to total. freedom. But it gets different with Elron Hubbard because what happens like Jerry's explaining is that over time it developed into a religious system. It wasn't even until I believe 1967 until the term operating Thaeton was even termed by El Ron Hubbard. So as he slowly started getting people to go through these processes, the theology of Scientology developed over time. Like they're still waiting for new operating Thaeton levels to be developed now. It's what keeps them, uh, many people who have paid X amount of money still on the path to the bridge of total freedom. They're still waiting for new information to develop.

Starting point is 00:14:28 So in terms of the American, yeah, in terms of the American society, I would say part of the reason why people got so interested in things like this is because they started falling away from biblical truth. And that happened very shortly after World War II. And people started looking for other things elsewhere with the infiltration of the new age, new thought, theosophy into our society. So to El Ron Hubbard, these things looked very attractive. Because if you look at the history of El Ron Hubbard and the things that he taught and the places he went, he was very much so a proponent of Hinduism. He even dabbled in a cultism.

Starting point is 00:15:04 So he's somebody with very unique history, very, very unique. Yeah. This is, and even, oh, go ahead. Yeah, so even his theology, and you look at just the, his basic view of like, what is man? When you look at there's nothing new under the sun is that, If you look at ancient Gnosticism, what was their fundamental presupposition? Is that there's a duality between the flesh and the spirit, where the flesh is bad, but we're mostly spiritual beings, right? And you always see that depicted in paganism one way or the other. And that's really, when you boil it down, that's what Scientology articulates, is that you are fundamentally a spiritual being that is trapped inside in your body. So there's a duality between the flesh and the spirit.

Starting point is 00:15:52 And this is also just part of cultism, is that when you are being recruited, when you are entry level, you're being told, hey, this is just a personality test. This is the way to help self-confidence. This is just a way to improve. There's nothing about, you being and operating Thayton or on another planet. There was an attempt to depopulate the planet, and these planets, I believe, were put into caskets or put into human bombs that were dropped in. two volcanoes and those volcanoes that exploded created disembodied spirits which are now individual Andrew Wilson determined they're the that they're the Thaitons right there yeah yeah let me go over this do you want me to go over the cosmological okay so this is something uh termed and known as the

Starting point is 00:16:38 wall of fire within Scientology again it's not something that people know until they're in operating Thayton level three so the story involves the existence of a cosmic ruler known as Zinu who is believed to have lived approximately 75 million years ago. And again, this is something that people learn. Just keep this in your mind after they're so far deep. So what I'm going to tell you right now, you may sit back and you're going to go, this is hilarious or I don't understand how anyone believes this. Well, you got to understand and put yourself in the position of the person who believes this

Starting point is 00:17:06 because of what they've been going through. This is indoctrination. Okay. So here's the narrative. Zeno was the rule of a galactic confederacy and an ancient intergalactic civilization facing severe overpopulation like Jerry was saying. To address the problem, Zeno devised a plan. So what he did is he brought billions of

Starting point is 00:17:21 beings referred to as Thaitons to the planet Earth. Then known as TIGI, these beings were allegedly frozen and transported in spacecraft to various volcanoes in Earth. And then there's an explosion, right? And Zeno dropped hydrogen bombs into the volcanoes and triggered a massive explosion, killing the Thetons. The spirit

Starting point is 00:17:39 of these Thetans, known as body Thetans, were released from their physical forms. Now, these spirit Thetons went to then implant stations. And in these implant stations, essentially false narratives were implanted into the Thayton's minds. So one example of a false narrative that was implanted into these Thetan's mind was Jesus. Okay. That was a false story implanted by Zinu in order to create a certain type of manipulation over the people. So that would be something that we can call as a formation of an N-gram according to Scientology. Jesus was just an implantation of a narrative into the

Starting point is 00:18:14 Thaeton mind and Thaetons essentially house our human body. So when Jerry's talking about Nostasis, and that's essentially what it is. We have to overcome what is ailing us in this physical form to become an operating Thaeton so we can master and manipulate matter, energy, space, and time. And that's what they believe that an operating Thayton can do. And that's right. Yeah, that's really not just everything that you're saying, which I felt like this before when we're talking about different kinds of cults. It's really not. that different than what a lot of women are fed in the form of self-help and self-love, this idea that as a Thayton, we're not originally from this planet. We have to free ourselves

Starting point is 00:18:54 from like the chains of matter and, you know, energy and things like that to truly be liberated, to go on that path to freedom. That is essentially what women are told in a less, I mean, religious context, but it's basically like, look, inside you is trapped like this inner goddess that just needs to be released through the power of self-love. And, all of these societal standards and advertising and the patriarchy and, you know, your toxic relationships, your husband, your kids, all of these things are holding you back. But when you throw those things off and go on this radical self-love, self-understanding journey, then you will finally be free of all of these chains, truly find who you are and really be happy,

Starting point is 00:19:35 really be successful, really afford that new car and all this stuff. It's not Scientology. I mean, in some cases we're told it's theology. Like we're actually told that that's like a form of Christianity some women are or certainly a form of therapy. And so it's really similar. It's so interesting how all of these cults kind of share those characteristics. Yeah. No, no, definitely.

Starting point is 00:19:58 In fact, just when you talk about just like the cult-like characteristics, when you understand the worldview and also how it's being boiled like a frog, but what their beliefs are on the higher levels. And this is a case with any, whether it's Mormonism, where they talk about what goes on, the temple or if you think about what actually goes on with behind the policy decision making within the watchtower Bible and track society these things in the high levels this is never communicated to a potential convert at all but however you do see that applied on very minuscule levels even on the very on the entry levels or the are the very lower levels of scientology for example so when somebody is holding on to the e-meters if you ever if you've ever seen those if you look at any of scientology video. They're holding on to these two canisters and there's this and there's this dial going back and

Starting point is 00:20:48 forth. And the idea is everything that happens, most of your personal problems are related to something going on in your quote-unquote reactive mind. So think about social media. Let's use an example so you can, maybe our audience can understand. So on this video and other videos that you've done that have been controversial, there's a YouTube comment section. And we know that it's so easy to go there and someone says something about you or someone to replies you on social media. there's that you have that ability sometimes to emotionally sort of knee-jerk react to a comment, right? So that would be an example.

Starting point is 00:21:21 A Scientology would, a Scientologist would say, that's your reactive mind, you reacting to that. So the idea is to go in these sessions of auditing, whether, and they'll talk about something from your childhood or even maybe even a previous life once you start going further up, and ask, well, why are you reacting to that? So the idea is to keep on saying things they would get you to react, but then allow you to detach the emotion from whatever this is. And in that process, eventually you'll pass one level and you'll go up to being O21, doing O T2, which is operating Thayton. And so, yeah, that's what you end up. That's what the initial process is. But then you find out

Starting point is 00:22:01 later on that, you find out later on on the higher levels about a lot of the strange beliefs about you know, Zeno and dropping bombs into volcanoes and things like that. But it is until later, and the whole process, there's this love bombing where you were told you were the most amazing person. Every single level in which you achieve, you're just completely applauded and you think so much of yourself. So even the idea of beginning to question, even you don't, no one has to sort of initially force you like not to question.

Starting point is 00:22:34 You sort of do it on your own. And so a lot of people, when we talk with Mike Rinder from A&A Scientology of the Aftermath, he really described it in his book. And even on a podcast, the interview we did with him, it's really just a mind prison that gets created for yourself. And so you're actually thinking you are achieving total freedom. And that's what's propagated, spiritual freedom. But in reality, it ends up being a prison, both spiritually, theological, mentally, mentally. psychologically, and it goes on too. Like you only associate with people who are in Scientology, and then you end up having

Starting point is 00:23:15 something called disconnection, which is part of Ron Hubbard's fair game tactics. It's related to that, where if you begin to question or you think about leaving, you end up being disconnected. So a huge majority of what you would see, if anyone's seen the show, Scientology of the aftermath, with that Leah Remney from the King of Queensland, you saw just the emotional devastation of people who grew up believing this thing. And this is honestly one of the challenges that people on the outside, it's very easy to make fun of Scientology.

Starting point is 00:23:49 You look at like a South Park episode or just a lot of the pop culture depictions of it. But we have to realize that all of us are so incredibly susceptible to false beliefs. We are incredibly suggestible. If you look up Steve Hassan, who wrote the book Combating Cult Mind Control, he talks about what is called undue influence. Because brainwashing, that tends to be something that the idea of that is being, you're being forced against your will. So if you think of like a prisoner of war like John McCain when he was captured in Vietnam and how he was broken down and eventually had to articulate communist propaganda, that went through, went by way of torture and sleep deprivation and all these things. when it comes to undue influence, it's very simple. It's easy for us to have a conversation when we are about, for example, like gender and how transgenderism is wrong and all that.

Starting point is 00:24:44 But if you are in a college classroom, if you're not at say you're doing that at church, but say that all of a sudden you're at a classroom with a gender studies professor, and every single person in that class except you is a social justice warrior who completely believes in this ideology, it's going to be a lot harder for you to raise your hand if you disagree. So you kind of see it on the very minuscule level, but that really is what happens in Scientology. And so when you see someone who leaves, who is abused, who is disconnected, in that show, there's levels of, like, embarrassment, shame that I was duped, that I believe these things. And then in the process of having to realize that in order for me to not believe this, I have to lose everything. I have to be cut off by my brothers, by my, you know, whether it's my older parents and you do look at a grand. parents who've been separated from their children or vice versa. And that show, honestly, was just heartbreaking. And in fact, you know, I think we articulated bad theology hurts people. It's actually one of our shirts that we have. Like, that show, like, in many ways, was a huge sort of

Starting point is 00:25:59 inspiration for us to even, like, do this podcast when it came out. Yeah. Yeah, it was a huge inspiration. Andrew, what are your thoughts? Yeah. I want to add some, like, biblical perspective to the conversation real quick with regards to self-help culture and even Scientology, right? Like we're born into a fallen world. There's something within us that knows that there's something wrong, that there's something wrong. And so the Bible clearly states that where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And it also says people, unless they're freed by God, don't like the things of the spirit. So we're either a slave to Christ or a slave to sin. We submit to something. Okay. So with regards to self-help culture or Scientology, what's going on is they're looking for a solution to a problem, but it's all the elementary principles of men. It's not actually the freedom that God gives because they tell you to do X, Y, in Z. It says in Colossians, too, it says, if you have died with Christ, so the elementary principles of the world, why is if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, do not handle, you not taste, do not touch, which deal with everything destined to perish with use, which are in accordance with the commands and teachings of the world.

Starting point is 00:27:06 men which are manners having to be sure a word of wisdom and self-made religion and self-abasement severe treatment of the body but are of no value in stopping the indulgence against the flesh. So if anyone is submitting to a self-help culture in order to solve their problems and not relying on the sacrifice of Christ on the cross to absolve our sins, you're never going to be satisfied. The bridge is going to continue to get longer and longer you're going to look for the next object, to the next material to satisfy your desires, but you're never going to be satisfied because there's a disconnect between you and God. And that bridge can only be gapped by Jesus Christ, who is God in the flesh, who died on the cross for our sins.

Starting point is 00:27:38 And the same thing goes with Scientology. That's why they're waiting for the next thing on the bridge to total freedom is because they're not free at all. Yeah. When the subject you are free indeed, that's the biblical perspective in terms of how we should even relate in our life to any form of idolatry. Our heart should break for people who are being held captive to a system of man because it doesn't stop the indulgence of the flesh. instead it actually creates more of an indulgence in the Psalms state that if you worship idols, you eventually become just like them. There are some people who are Scientologists who also claim to be Christians.

Starting point is 00:28:22 Joy Villa, you might remember she kind of made waves in the conservative world when she wore some kind of dress to some of it. I don't even remember a few years ago, maybe 2017-18 that said Make America Great again. She did another one that was pro-life. She was on Fox News a lot. and she's a Scientologist, but she will also say, like, she's a Christian. And so I've seen this from a few people saying, sure, you can be a Christian and a Scientologist. Obviously, we know that's not true, or you can even be a Buddhist and a Scientologist.

Starting point is 00:28:53 But in addition to what you just explained so well, Andrew, like, what are some reasons why Scientology and Christianity are just opposed to each other? And why also would Scientology say that you can do both? That seems a little weird. Yeah, Jerry, you want to go first? Well, yeah, I would refer people back to the interview we did with Mike Rinder from Scientology, The Aftermath. Just because, honestly, even though this is a podcast, Andrew and I do, this is also a ministry that we do, it's our vantage point is from the outside looking in. I've never done a Scientology course.

Starting point is 00:29:29 I've never been audited. And so I'm really from the outside looking in. I think Mike Rinder is one of the most qualified people as far as he's, He's somebody who grew up around. Ron Hubbard, he was on the Apollo with him. If you've ever seen, if anyone watched any of the documentaries going clear, he was actually on the boat. He was part of the C-org. He was pretty much the public spokeperson for Scientology for a very extended amount of time. He was also very much involved with Tom Cruise's public relations and relation to the Church of Scientology. But in the very, very beginning, we asked him just about his thoughts on Scientology in relation to Christianity. And I think it's right. around the 20. If you go to our podcast, Mike Rinder, Inside the Mind Prison Scientology, he basically himself, he, like, Mike Rinder's not a Christian, but he emphatically stated that Scientology is not Christian. The radically, the basic fundamental tenets of Jesus being an actual man who died on the cross, who just the historical figure of Christ, Ron Hubbard adamantly

Starting point is 00:30:34 denied. I believe he said that Christ was a false memory implanted. here. And so you have that aesthetic, but even look at even the actions. You should judge a tree by its fruit. So Ron Hubbard, the only real appeal from what I remember, even like the cross and their symbol, was just to sort of have a marketing appeal. In fact, he did an advertising campaign, which Mike explained to us in the podcast, where he would sort of have these sort of meetings that he would try and market to Christians to talk to them about Scientology. I was saying it's a Christian religion or it's completely compatible and syncretistic but as soon as people attended the meeting he completely flipped switch and it was a straight up Scientology presentation.

Starting point is 00:31:17 And so I would say just from independent eyewitness and testimony of somebody and like Mike's story has been verified by many, aside from the Scientology propaganda outlets, I mean, he has one of the most unique vantage points. And yeah, so just from his vantage point of like what even would Rahmbo, El Robert both taught, believed, and articulated and practice out during the early years of Scientology would say that they are so polar opposites of each other. That would be an understatement to begin with. What are your thoughts, Andrew?

Starting point is 00:31:52 Yeah, so I would say with regards to Scientology, they're extremely pragmatic, right? Every single world religion has to do something with Jesus. He's the most important central figure in human history. To appeal to people, of course, they're going to say things like, you can be a Christian and be a Scientologist. I mean, LDS people say that they're Christian, too. I talk to them all the time on the street. There's Muslims who say that they believe in Jesus, right? There's even Jehovah Witnesses. They say that they believe in Jesus. I mean, we have biblical precedent for this. Not only does Jesus tell us, there's going to be many who come in his name, right? But 2 Corinthians 114, Paul tells us, he says,

Starting point is 00:32:24 for if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if we receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted. He's warning the church in Corinth at that time. He's like, I think you'd put up with it. You are putting up with it. And he corrects them. We're told also in 1st John 4. He says, don't believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see that they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out in the world. By this, you know, the spirit of God. Every spirit that confesses that Jesus is the Christ has come in the flesh is from God. And every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. Meaning this, that when Jesus is the Christ,

Starting point is 00:32:57 we're looking back at Isaiah 96, that he is Emmanuel. He is the mighty God. He is the God from everlasting into everlasting who took on flesh and saved his people from his sins, Isaiah 53. And also, like Jerry was saying, we have a historical point, in fact, for the resurrection of Jesus. We have an empty tomb. And if Christ is not dead, it says in 1st Corinthians 15, then we are still in our sins. And we know that Scientology is completely antithetical to the gospel because, number one, when you believe in a different Jesus, say, if you believe in a Jesus, that's a false memory, then he didn't satisfy or atone any form of sin. You're going to have to actually. have to satisfy that requirement for yourself by going through the bridge to

Starting point is 00:33:35 freedom. But again, you'll never be able to satisfy it. Therefore, you get a different gospel like we're warned of in Galatians 1-8. And if anyone comes to the different gospel or with the different Jesus, it's actually not Christianity. And we use the same standard when we're talking to a Jehovah's Witness or we're talking to an LDS person or we're talking even to a Muslim. So we actually have the Bible to protect us from false Jesuses and from false gospels. So I would say that it's not me and my own personal feelings that would tell someone like Joy Villa that they're not a Christian. I'd actually say it's God through the Holy Spirit who says that you're not a Christian because he is God himself. Yeah. And one thing I was thinking

Starting point is 00:34:12 of when you were talking about all the things that you don't even know when you first walk into Scientology, when you're starting to be audited, like you don't even learn about how Elron Hubbard believed that the world was created and all of these different things. And you may never, if you don't, I guess, invest enough money and get to that level and all of that. And that seems true of a lot of these different cults. And you could probably tell us, whether that's a characteristic of all cults. But you have to kind of travel to this like inner sanctum of, you know, closeness to the people who are in charge to really, you know, be revealed all of this stuff.

Starting point is 00:34:47 And that's so different than Christianity where we want to lay it all out there. That doesn't mean that there aren't some theological concepts that are more, difficult to understand than others, but we're like, come to our church, see how we worship, see what we talk about. Here's the entire Bible. Like, we're not going to hide anything from you. There's not some other secret text that has the weird stuff in it that we don't really want to show you quite yet. You don't like get to be one day closer or you shouldn't be able to get to one day be closer to our pastor or leaders if you invest enough money and then we finally reveal to you what it really means to be a Christian. Like it's so out there that

Starting point is 00:35:27 actually the most the central part of Christianity, the most controversial part of Christianity, Jesus Christ himself, he actually became flesh into all the monk people. And was God, declared that he was God, acted as God. And so there's nothing to hide within Christianity. The entirety of the gospel is right there. And we actually desperately want you to know all of it as much as possible. That seems to be one big difference between these kind of Gnostic cults in Christianity. Yeah, definitely. And in fact, one of the fruits, too, which you could kind of jump into as far as Scientology's behavior, both towards the U.S. government and towards those who have defected and spoken out against the Church of Scientology, which would make it not, unfundically not Christian, is the basic teachings of Jesus when you talked about his disciples, said, hey, love those and pray for those who persecute you. So Scientology is the exact polar opposite, where it says, destroy anybody who questions anything regarding the teachings of El Ron Hubber who speaks out against the Church of Scientology.

Starting point is 00:36:35 Okay, we left you on a cliffhanger there. Purposely, you got to tune in for part two. We're going to be talking about some of the mysterious and very disturbing practices within Scientology. And again, talking about the significance of this, obviously, theological. morally, but also politically. Like, there is a lot of, there are a lot of strange connections between the government, between state and local governments and Scientology. So we're going to explore those in the next episode with these guys.

Starting point is 00:37:19 Thanks so much for tuning in. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. on the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular.

Starting point is 00:37:52 This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this Steve Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 880 | The Truth About Scientology | Guests: Jeremiah Roberts & Andrew Soncrant of 'Cultish' (Part One)

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