Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 881 | Scientology, Rape Cover-Ups, & Forced Abortions | Guests: Jeremiah Roberts & Andrew Soncrant of 'Cultish' (Part Two)

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

Starting point is 00:00:19 We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. What are some of the conspiracies within Scientology? The wife of the leader of Scientology has been missing since 2006. No one knows her whereabouts. There are a lot of stories like this within Scientology as well as tales of abuse, mistreatment, neglect, We need to peel back the layers on this and look at what's really going on. And again, why it really matters and how Christianity and Christianity alone offers the true freedom that people are trying but failing to find in cults like Scientology. We're back with Jeremiah Roberts and Andrew Sankrant. This is part two of the two-part series on Scientology.

Starting point is 00:01:21 They're the host of the cultish podcast, which I highly recommend. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Goodrecent. Ranchers, go to Good Ranchers.com. Use code Alley. Check out. That's good ranchers.com. Code Allie. So this is going to be the moment we're going to maybe jump in and kind of get a little tinfoil hat. I just kind of, you know, get into the conspiracy world. Let's do it. Yes. That's where I was about to go anyway. So that's perfect. Awesome. And so when you look at, so it was around 1967 after Ron Elin Hubbard had established the Church of Scientology, the IRS had revoked its tax exam status. And this would, I think this would have been a slap in the face

Starting point is 00:02:06 Al Ron Hubbard giving what he had very on a matter of public records, seeing he wanted to utilize a religion as a way to obtain wealth, to be rich, you know, whatever his motives, true motives were. And so what ends up happening is because of the fact that they have their IRS tax exam status, you basically had a period of years where you had multiple, you think about Watergate, you had just a small little, like, maybe like 12 or so people who, you know, spied on another campaign and you think everything that happened with the Nixon administration, you had roughly around 5,000, I think 5,000 members of the Church of Scientology who are actively involved on multiple different fronts in the government, not just the internal revenue service, but just trying to

Starting point is 00:02:50 obtain documents, trying to forge documents, basically everything to take revenge, lash back, and do whatever needs necessary to get their tax-exempt status back. It's a pretty wild story of infiltration. In fact, when I was initially doing my research, I was thinking, how are they not made a movie about this? If they did make a movie, it probably wouldn't be starring Tom Cruise for sure.

Starting point is 00:03:15 But, yeah, Andrew, how would you describe a very cliff-nodes version of this? Because you did some research on this. How do you kind of describe very cliff-nodes what happened? Because it's connected to some of the other issues with Scientology and the tax-exempt status. Yeah, I think that you did a pretty good job actually examining the cliff notes. But what I find interesting is that first there is a,

Starting point is 00:03:36 there was something written by El Ron Hubbard in terms of a doctrine that was put forth that from this doctrine, they extrapolated the, the operation snow white to occur. And what's actually funny from it is that Elron Hubbard's wife kind of took the fall for it. And he kind of threw it under the bus being like, I didn't tell them to go do this. I just actually just created this doctrine that they extrapolated from. I think you actually did a really good job with that Cliff Notes version.

Starting point is 00:04:03 But when we're even talking about terms of conspiracy, we're not referring to conspiracies with no verifiable evidence. We're talking like conspiracies in terms of how Joseph's brothers conspired against him to throw him into a pit, actual historical conspiracies where the Church of Scientology conspired against the United States government. And this is things that actually did happen. It's important to understand that distinction as well. Yeah, and so what ends up, really what ends up happen at the very pinnacle of the whole story of Operation Snow White, and people can definitely look at. There's other podcasts that go into this in-depth. Essentially, you had two main characters who were doing the most of the primary infiltration, and by the time they were at the top level and they were even being interrogated by the FBI because people were suspicious about these two people that were Scientologists who had infiltrated the government. Essentially, there was one person who, one of the two people, who wanted to come forward and be a whistleblower on the Church of Scientology. The Church of Scientology got word of that, and they actually held this person in solitary confinement under, which is illegal. It's kidnapping. And this is something that has been a regular basis

Starting point is 00:05:10 all throughout the history of the Church of Scientology. It happened to Mike Rinder. It happened to multiple other people who were held in a facility against their will. A lot of people think that's what's currently happening to Shelley Mischavage, and we'll definitely jump into that in a second. But really what ended up happening is that spies usually are good at a couple things. They're good at spying and they're also good at escaping. So this person, even though they're held in confines by the Church of Scientology, this person ended up escaping. And he went to the government, spilled all the beans. And essentially, you had a raid done by the FBI with a roughly about 150 agents who went into a couple different Scientology headquarters facilities. They filled up probably a U-Haul moving truck worth of documents. and it was a very, it was a very bad PR issue for the Church of Scientology. What ended up happening, how that's connected is that if you move forward a couple decades, Elron Hubbard passed away. David Muscabbage was roughly around 21 years old at the time,

Starting point is 00:06:08 and he really took over Scientology and really ruled with an iron fist. I mean, he really, anybody that was in any sort of, any, was slightly opposed to him. He threw them to the wayside, had them pretty much destroyed, and he really rose to power. and he still is the head of Scientology to this day. And where this goes, what this goes from here was the issue of Scientology's tax exempt status.

Starting point is 00:06:33 There's a moment, I'm not exactly, I can't remember exactly what year it was, but essentially because Scientology had their tax exempt status revote, they had a tax bill that was bigger than all of their assets put together. So you put two and two together. That's an accounting issue. That means the Scientology is not sustainable. So Scientology waged a war with the IRS.

Starting point is 00:06:58 And you think about, you know, you get a letter from the IRS and just the initial anxiety. Oh, no, you're getting audited. You know, we had the story. You think about the story that just broke was about a year ago about the IRS, 70,000 new IRS agents. And you think about how people are like, oh, my gosh, that's so nervous. Well, Scientology, like, we're going after the IRS. And they, you had roughly about 2,000 lawsuits from individual people all against the IRS. But they didn't stop there.

Starting point is 00:07:24 They thought, well, no, we're not going to sue the IRS. We are going to find out who the agents are, and we're going to sue them. So you had personal suits against people for all sorts of different reasons. So you had people who are IRS agents who are just, this is their nine to five, right? This is how I can provide for my family. And all of a sudden, you have people outside of your window who are spying on you, who are going through your garbage, who are finding every little thing about you. And now it's hitting you from all of these different angles. So in summary, eventually they were told the head of the IRS, I can't remember his name, but he was basically told that they just renew Scientology's tax exempt status. This will just all go away. And they did. And you'll see it. You can actually look this up online. There's this Scientology convention. You should watch just a little bit of video. It shows you the culture. It's very similar to North Korea with how everyone just applauds on command. I mean, it's hard to even describe. You'd have to see it. But there's this pinnacle moment.

Starting point is 00:08:22 And Mike Rinder talks about it in his book, where Miscavits basically says, the war is over and all these fireworks go off and everyone does this crazy thunderous applause. And so they got their tax exempt status back. And so ever since, their tax bill went away. But not only that, every bit of money that they made sense then when it comes to the bridge to total freedom, when it comes to all the different real estate purchases around the world, which is how they moved a lot of their money around, all they. that is currently tax-free under the guise of a religious institution. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political.

Starting point is 00:09:08 They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos.

Starting point is 00:09:30 If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Tell us a little bit more. You mentioned Shelley. I don't know if it's Ms. Kavage, Miscavage. So basically there is not even a conspiracy, but I guess questions about Shelley because this is the wife of David, who you said, is the head of Scientology, has been for a very long.

Starting point is 00:10:03 long time. Basically, she disappeared from public life in 2006. People haven't seen her. You mentioned Leah Romini. She was someone who is in Scientology now speaks out about the toxicity, the dangers of Scientology. And she tweeted earlier this year, she said, today is Shelly Miscavage's 60-second birthday. The last time She was seen in public, she was 43. I hope I can with Shelly happy birthday in person one day until then I will keep fighting for my friend's freedom no matter what. So what do we think is going on here? Andrew, what do you thought to that? Yeah, I honestly have no idea.

Starting point is 00:10:37 I think she was last seen in public in 2007. I think 2013 there's like a welfare check done by the Los Angeles Police Department. Honestly, I have no idea where she is in terms the fair game doctrine given by Scientology that if someone is a threat to Scientology or the Church of Scientology, there's essentially no restrictions, right? Intimidate, do what you can in order to keep them quiet. I don't know. I can only surmise maybe she knows something that could be extremely damaging. And she's hidden somewhere.

Starting point is 00:11:09 Yeah. Maybe she's dead. I don't know. I really hope she isn't dead. Yeah. But no one really knows. But that's scary to think there's been like a lack of intent investigation into the disappearance of someone who was public. I mean, that's a little strange, right? Absolutely. I mean, there's history of that within Scientology. Like people don't even know where El Ron.

Starting point is 00:11:33 was for the longest time. Was he living here in California? Was he living there? He was living on a ship. He was evading tax situations. Like, I mean, who knows what the Church of Scientology is telling people. They could just be saying, oh, she's fine. She just doesn't want to talk. But yeah, there should be an intense investigation because this is someone who's made in the image of God and God since thou shalt not murder. And if someone murders a human being, there needs to be justice. So even if we don't know, though, in this life what happened to her. I know, and I have faith in God. God that at the consummation of all things, that justice will occur for Shelley Miscarvich. And those who hurt her, they will actually have to stand and hold an account before God.

Starting point is 00:12:14 And that's a terrifying thing to behold. But that is something that will happen one day. And we actually, as Christians, have faith in that. So I pray, though, that justice occurs in this life, but regardless, it will occur one day. Yeah. Tell us a little bit more about some of the tactics by Scientologists to kind of, uh, intimidate people to torment people into silence. I don't know how much y'all know about this, but I've just heard there's also just with the controlling nature of its own members,

Starting point is 00:12:46 I think I saw it in that Netflix documentary that you were talking about, basically forcing parents to abandon their children, leave them in the care of strangers that they don't know. They're always trying to try to divide these relationships that might end up being a threat, even if it's parent-child relationship or, excuse me, they will encourage abortion or I've even heard stories of forced abortion in some cases. I'm not sure if that's in the name of some kind of threat to this person's membership or in the name of success or what it is. But there's a lot of coercion. And it seems like a lot of criminality and violence that goes on within Scientology. Yeah. Well, it's injuring. You mentioned the forced abortion.

Starting point is 00:13:31 the actors who plays the lead role in the Handmaid's Tale. Yes. I can't remember her name off the top of my head. Yes, she isn't, it's funny because that whole premise, you know, you think about people who protest an abortion law, they always get in a handmaid's tail office. They're always feeling those evil Christians who want to force women in red cloaks. But when you look in reality is that she's an act of Scientologist, and there's numerous accounts, publicly independent lines of testimony, witness verified records of women who are in. the C-org, they end up getting pregnant, and the Scientology, like, they get forced to have an abortion. So literally, it's one of the ultimate examples, too, of projecting, hey, I want to go ahead and

Starting point is 00:14:13 articulate this idea to demonize one group when it's the fact the very religion that I'm doing is forcing women to get abortions. And I think, too, a lot of it just comes down to worldview. When you look at even a lot of the cases of abuse, of people who, of children who grew up in Scientology, again, it's a worldview issue. is how do Scientology view children? They view them as grown-up adults who are trapped in children's bodies.

Starting point is 00:14:39 That's how they view their own children. And so that would go very part and parcel to how you deal with them, how you punish them, how you train them. There's sort of no, you're not really allowed to be a child. There's no level of innocence are growing up, and that's really articulated in a lot of the episodes of Scientology, the aftermath.

Starting point is 00:14:57 But honestly, you even see this, too, articulated in the relationship that Tom Cruise has had with the media. So Tom Cruise initially, everyone knows he was married to Nicole Kidman. He met her on the set of Days of Thunder. That's when the NASCAR movie, and that's when their relationship really flourished. Well, really, Miscavich at that time was really nervous about that relationship because one, Nicole Kidman was not a Scientologist. And what ended up really even derailing that relationship was the fact that,

Starting point is 00:15:29 believe Nicole Kibman's father was on the board of some sort of psychiatry institution, which that would have put into the fair game tactic, and that would call for disconnection because there is even a loose association. This is not, you know, Nicole Kippman isn't like a specific on publicly collaborating with her dad. It just so happens her dad is that. She's an actress, right? You think all this news that would lead up to that. So that would be also in a very public eye, how disconnection would happen. But even on the most personal level, anyone has watched Scientology at the aftermath, you would see just the devastation of just everyday people.

Starting point is 00:16:08 Like, I got, there's multiple times in that show, like, I'm, even people who aren't Christian, like, you see the hurt and the devastation. Like, there's times I'm watching that show, like, just with tears down my eyes. I feel like I'm getting emotional just talking about it. But that's when you show, like, these are people who are made in the image of God. And when you see this counterfeit, like, as a Christian, like, it makes me angry. agree because there's levels where you see like a scripture that says like the gods those who have gone the sorrows of those who have gone after another god will multiply and so you see that on like a theological

Starting point is 00:16:40 issue but when you see people actually dealing with it it's you can all your heart can only break for them and in fact there's a guy Aaron Smith he was on the Lex Friedman podcast not too long ago just sort of talking in Scientology when he gives his own story of how he lost the relationship with his brother. Like, I've heard that story multiple times, and there's this moment where all of a sudden I'm listening to the podcast and all of a sudden it goes silent. I'm like, what, is there something wrong in my volume?

Starting point is 00:17:08 I'm like, oh, no, he's telling the story like with his brother again about how he lost the relationship with his brother. And yeah, I mean, it's definitely heartbreaking. I think, honestly, this is where as a ministry, as Christians where we differ from people like

Starting point is 00:17:23 Leah and Mike Rinder and guys like Karen Smith. Like, I have so much appreciation for what they do, for what they do, exposing the abuses of Scientology. I think because they aren't beginning with the fundamental presupposition that these people are made in the image of God, they're the Mago Day, and that ultimately Jesus Christ is the hope of the world and the hope for those who are both in Scientology, for those who have come out of Scientology, you can't, like, how do you give an ultimate accounting? Like, what's your fundamental presupposition or starting point to even point out spiritual abuse to begin with.

Starting point is 00:17:58 The existence of a counterfeit predicates the authenticity of an original. And so what you end up seeing is that what people are longing for and what they end up getting is a result of investing into a counterfeit. And that's why it's important we see a prominent not to approach the subjects of the cults from a point of neutrality, but from the presupposition that Jesus Christ is king of kings, Lord of Lords. He is the hope of the world. He is the hope for all those who put their faith in him. He's the hope for all those who have experienced spiritual trauma and the abuse. He is the he is the authentic in the replacement to the counterfeit. And so one of the things,

Starting point is 00:18:37 Andrew, let's jump in here a second. The reason why I was kind of mentioning the issue of tax exempt status, I believe this is where Leah, Mike, those who are advocating right now. And Mike talked about this on the podcast where he, his real mission and motivation right now is to try and get the IRS to revoke Scientology's tax exempt status again. And I think what happens is that a lot of people who are secular who deal with the issue of the cult, they tend to sort of look to the state as the main arbiter between to kind of arbitrate and deal with these things out. What ends up happening is that if you're more at the position of morality ends with the state. then you are ultimately leaving up to the state to decide what is loving your neighbor, what is telling the truth, what is bearing false witness? And there's been multiple accounts, too, where you've seen the state involved, where they have not handled, they have not spoken in justice. They haven't really sought out justice for people who are victims of cults.

Starting point is 00:19:41 There is a, there's a HBO documentary. I'm trying to think of the name of the cult. It was Luz Del Mundo, I think. think it was called. And it was this cult that was based out of Mexico, that and all these women were child brides. And they came forward and exposed the abuses of just really the predatory nature of these quote-unquote apostles. And they were told during this trial that this person would receive justice. They would not get a plea bargain. And at the very end of this case, the state changed their mind, the state of California, and said, nope, actually we're going to give this apostle a plea bargain. So you constantly see those who leave the arbitration for dealing with cult abuse in the

Starting point is 00:20:25 hand of the state. The state has been a terrible and inconsistent unequal waists and just, unequal just and weights really arbitrary when it comes to dealing with the cult. I want to just kick it back just a little bit in terms of what Ali was asking with family separation or even forced abortions. You mentioned the C-org, Jerry, and I think that's a distinction that we have to help the listeners understand. So there's a something called the C organization, which is a religious order within the Church of Scientology, which is their working arm essentially. Remember we talked about the bridge of total freedom. The bridge of total freedom costs so much money. So if you can't pay for it, you might as sign what is

Starting point is 00:21:12 called the billion year contract and devote your life at the Church of Scientology so that you can work the whole time in order to pay for those auditing sessions so you can go up the bridge of total freedom. And they pay these people very slim, mainly just living, right? You can go and look at places in Clearwater, Florida. There's videos on YouTube where there's apartment building. where people are just, they're fully bought by the Church of Scientology and they're sitting there living inside these buildings, not in good conditions. If you listen to our episode that we did with Mike Rinder, he clearly describes in his book a billion years and in the interview what it was like living aboard. I believe it was the Apollo, what he was on, the same boat that Elron

Starting point is 00:21:48 Hubbard was on, what the living quarters were like for the members of the Sea Org. But essentially, in order for the Church of Scientology to function, it functions off of the people in the C.org. And so when people in the C.org engage in sexual relation and people get pregnant, the organization doesn't like that because it takes time away from the organization. You want total devotion to the organization. And those within the C.org also want to devote themselves. I mean, these people end up working over 100 hours a week. They get worked down to the grave. So essentially what happens is families are split. There's even children from children from the C.org that just go into specific schools for the Church of Scientology. And these people never see their parents again.

Starting point is 00:22:24 and they're raised essentially by a cult. Like that's the reality of what's going on. And these children are put even to like forced labor building in specific things. Like Jerry said, there are these like full grown reincarnated beings trapped in just sided little child's body. So that's the reality of what is going on. And like Jerry said, we live in a society today where since we've gone so far from the word of God, we don't actually have a standard in order to actually bring justice to what is

Starting point is 00:22:53 happening to these little image bears. We said that they're protected under a form of religious freedom. But according to the Bible, that is something that these children should be free from a cult that is destroying their lives. And Mike Rinder even said it in a billion years. He wrote that book. It's right in the beginning. He says he wrote it so that if his children ever want to know about him even after he's dead, like that's his plea to them. Like this is what my story is. They have animosity for him. Yeah. And he wrote that just. So maybe one day they could pick it up. And I believe they're still in within Scientology.

Starting point is 00:23:27 They can pick it up. They can read it. And hopefully they can know him a little bit better. So that just gives you an idea. Just that right there. And Mike Rinder's struggle to get his connection back with his family of what happens within the family unit in the Corg. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:23:41 And in church of psychology. Yeah. I just want to read this story that I found. It was reported by ABC, this woman who joined Scientology at a very young age sued Scientology for forcing her to have an abortion. And the case ended up being settled. But her name was Laura DeCrizzanso. And this was reported in 2018. DeCreschenzo signed Scientology's billion year contract when she was just 12 years old, moving out of her parents' home in New Mexico. I don't even know how in the world this could happen. But an into Scientology's pack base in

Starting point is 00:24:23 Hollywood de Creschino alleged in her lawsuit that she was falsely imprisoned, isolated from her family at time, subjected to rigid discipline in the rehabilitation project force, and forced to have an abortion when she became pregnant as a teenager. In court papers, attorneys for Scientology denied each and every allegation. She joined the C.org, she married another member of the C.org at 16, became pregnant at 17. And these stories. stories really aren't that uncommon. She certainly isn't the only one to make these accusations. Was there anything in there that you guys feel like you need to break down? I know you, you talked about the C.org and the billion year contract. Is there anything else in there that people need to

Starting point is 00:25:09 understand? I would say just, uh, just worldview. I mean, if you are grown up teaching and you know, if you're parents and if you are true, if you have a, you know, husband and wife and you are true believers in Scientology, like you really believe that your child is just an adult trapped in this body. So if you're 12 years old, you think about what sort of decisions do you have to make independently when you're 12 years old in a perfect world, right? Definitely not signing any sort of contract that's worth a billion years. I mean, 12 divided by a billion. I don't know, my math is old but rusty at the moment. But the reality is that this is what they believe. And again, it's very easy, you know, to hear something like that. Like, you're crazy. How could you let your child sign this

Starting point is 00:25:58 contract and all this sort of stuff happen? But this is what happens when, whether Scientology or any of these groups where you become a true believer and get radicalized, like you don't think about this sort of thing until you get on the outside. And then when you actually wake up, there's, imagine like the parents, imagine coming out of Scientology. If they're the parents and they come out of Scientology, you know, if they're not Christian and say they're in a focus group with, you know, Leah and Mike and say they're on Scientology, The Aftermath, the Reunion episode, if that happens. Imagine them having to explain, I let all this happen to my child, and I thought this was a good thing. Can you imagine the guilt and the imagine the shame? That's just one thing you have to do

Starting point is 00:26:39 was definitely just that fundamental worldview issue. That would be the primary thing. And it just, again, this is just people are just, they're, they, it's very cut and dry, black and white. This is Elron Hubbard's policy, doesn't matter with the relationship, whether it's child to parent, parent to child, parent to grandparent, any sort of relationship, sometimes even with pets, that they enact the fair game and disconnection. What are your thoughts real quickly, Andrew? Yeah, because we, once we deny biblical principles, our society goes down a slippery slope. And what I mean by that is the family government is something instituted by God,

Starting point is 00:27:18 where your children are yours, essentially, that. you are to raise them in the fear and admonition of the Lord. So if you think, if you deny biblical principles and if you think Scientology is weird, well, what we have to understand is if our government isn't founded upon biblical principles and your children aren't yours, then they then belong to the state. You can look at China. Very similar things are happening. The children aren't necessarily belonging to their parents. They're indoctrinated through specific communist schools with communist ideology. So that's the reality of this situation is that the reason why we're angry about Scientology and the things that are going on is because we live in a nation that is built upon Christian principles, but those are slowly dissolving. I mean, we interviewed De Anmi Park and she gave us very chilling warnings from her book while time remains. And she's saying we're headed down a very similar path, right, where you can't say this, you can't say that. You've got to believe this. You got to believe that. Certain things are being taught through public school systems that influence the way people are relating to one another, creating forms of conflict through intersectionality, taking away rights of individuals.

Starting point is 00:28:21 and soon maybe even taking away the rights of the family in order to raise their children in the fear and admonition of the Lord. So the reality of the world that we're living in is that our government isn't too far off from Scientology. The only thing that's keeping our government at bay, I'd say, is the hand of Christ and the blessings that we have inherited through the principles of a biblical nation from the beginning of our society. So if it bothers you, we need to do something about it as Christians. We can't stay silent. We should be, you know, be vocal, act as the rod to the state. bearing the truth to our local magistrates and telling them, we need to repent of the things that we're doing and follow God in A, B, and C, for our society to flourish. Yeah, even though that would be a

Starting point is 00:29:01 really good place to end, I still have another question that I've been hanging on to. And probably it will be my last question, but we'll just see. What is it, do you think about Scientology, that is so attractive for people who are already rich and powerful? I understand the appeal for people who want to be rich and powerful, who maybe are struggling in their acting, career. But it's a two-part question, kind of. But because you see, okay, Tom Cruise and you see John Travolta, Elizabeth Moss, why are they attracted to Scientology and not just self-help or not just some other kind of like, you know, self-promotion self-improvement program? Why are they in Scientology? I'll just let you answer that first part of the question and then

Starting point is 00:29:47 I'll get to my second part. Andrew, go for that, man. Okay, yeah. So the reason why is because Scientology and then Mike Rinder talks about it in his book, he was also telling us in the interview is Scientology like headhunts people. Like they go to them. They want, they're very pragmatic like I was saying earlier. They want people who are in positions of quote unquote power in order to be spokesperson for Scientology. Like John Travolta is a good example that's used in the billion years book where this guy was not even really a full believer in Scientology. Yet they kept going after him and going after him trying to headhunt him down. Even David Beckham, guys, they tried to get David Beckham to be part of the Church of Scientology at their headquarters. They had to built a soccer stadium just for him. And he never ended up showing. Like a soccer field or whatever. He ended never up showing. He's like, I don't want to be a part of this.

Starting point is 00:30:38 So I'd say they headhunt people. But I think why people are appealed to it is something that we talked about earlier is that because we are sinners, there is a veil, right, between man and God. Jesus Christ destroyed the veil, but only where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. What every other cult seeks to do is say, look, there's a problem with humanity, and this is how you can fix it. So they're appealing to an innate sense within the person that there is something wrong, and this is how I can fix it. And that's why people are appealed to it. There's something that they believe that they can do in order to achieve some form of divinity or godhood. I mean, Satan said it to Eve in the garden.

Starting point is 00:31:19 He said, God doesn't want you to take of that fruit because he knows you will be just like him knowing both good and evil. It appeals to the very innate sense of our fallen nature to say, no, I don't need God to achieve these things. I can actually do it myself through these elementary principles, which are described in Colossians. So I'd say, that's what it is. We're fallen human beings. And that's why they're pulled to it. But Jesus Christ is the only solution. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:31:45 And I'll just say real quickly, as we have up here, Ali, is that it's really an issue. of looking at the starting with the authentic right so it's very easy to be to become there feels like there's this pressure that you have to become an expert on every single cult well not really it's it's good to be it's better to actually be more familiar with the authentic like what does the Bible actually say about this like what's the ultimate foundation of truth so you look at what does it say in the book of James about favoritism it says that if you end up having someone who's a rich person who has all this decor is sitting in the very front of your house church or

Starting point is 00:32:19 or congregation at the time in the first century. But you say to the poor person, the beggar in the back, no, you sit in the back. You sit in the back where no one else can really see you. Like, that's condemned. Like James spoke out against that. But when in Scientology, you have the exact opposite of that. So when you look at how celebrities like Mike,

Starting point is 00:32:37 Tom Cruise, John Travolta, in fact, this is articulated too in the documentary going clear. I think it was Tom Cruise's 42nd birthday where he's on this private yacht. Everyone's applauding his everything. He's got servants beckoning to his every call. It is one of his mansions of Pennell Suites that the Scientology fully funds. That's a very, that treatment of Tom Cruise is polar opposite of somebody like Andrew mentioned who's over in Clearwater, Florida, who's living on whatever the wage is like 50 bucks a week on minuscule things.

Starting point is 00:33:06 You don't see that. In fact, one of the most interesting things, too, is that when I watched the documentary going clear, I rewatched it again, when you see the interactions that Mike Rinder has with this BBC reporter, You look at his face. He looks 20 years older. And this is from 20 years ago. Mike looks 20 years older than he did in our interview with him. Like that's the amount of sleep deprivation, like abuse that people face. So that's one of the distinctions is that there's completely radical unjust weights and measures if you're a rich, powerful person or celebrity versus someone who's just on the outskirts.

Starting point is 00:33:44 And I guess, I mean, this answers my second question is that, okay, I guess I understand. understand, you know, everyone wants to exchange, who is not in Christ, everyone wants to exchange the God of Scripture for the God of self. It manifests itself, I guess, in different ways. Some people through Scientology. And so I understand if you're like going up these wrongs, you're getting more and more power. You attribute that to Scientology, you stay in it. But someone like, someone who is in Scientology, they're guaranteed all of the success and prominence. You know, they're love bombed. But you realize at a certain point that this isn't really working. Like there's this guy, Danny Masterson, he was a part of that.

Starting point is 00:34:29 70 show. Apparently, he is on trial for rape as we're recording this. We don't know the conclusion of all of this of raping multiple women. He relied, according to the AP, on his prominence in the Church of Scientology to avoid consequences for years. This again is another example of what you're talking about. The state just not caring for victims. But, okay, this person, he's high up in Scientology. He's been able to rely on his prominence in Scientology to avoid these consequences. but he's not, no one knows who he is anymore. Like he's obviously hasn't become more successful. He hasn't gained more prominence.

Starting point is 00:35:05 He hasn't booked all of these jobs. Like at some point, it's a little bit odd. Like don't you look around and say, oh, they promised that I was going to be this huge star. Like Tom Cruise, no one knows who I am since that 70s show or Joy Villa or any of those people. Like, I guess it's just delusional. I don't know. I guess you're just so far in it. that you just are detached from reality.

Starting point is 00:35:32 Yeah, I mean, there's a YouTube channel. I'm just going to give a plug for. I've never talked to this guy, but it's a YouTube channel called Growing Up in Scientology. And the host of that channel does it, he does daily content. He's done a lot of really in-depth analysis of that specific trial.

Starting point is 00:35:47 To be honest, I've only seen it in passing. I've seen occasionally Mike Rinder will tweet or Leo will say, we'll tweet something about that. But I do know a lot of what they are saying is that they are fundamental presuppositions in Scientology, Ron Hubbard's teachings, but also just in general, like what, how going up the bridge, how it changes you psychologically and even mentally, where you sort of think that your actions are in, don't have consequence. And so I believe a lot of what they've articulated is the beliefs of Scientology are a very part and part. parcel to this to this rape case from what I've seen. Andrew, what are your thoughts? Yeah, I just think that there's promises that people are given within any cult-like situation. And within a cult, typically the only people who are really benefiting are at the top of the pyramid, right? We see that all over the place. So other people are going to suffer and their life is not

Starting point is 00:36:51 necessarily going to work out for them. And this man is just one example of that. I mean, sometimes the Lord lets people prosper for a time. And then he takes it all the way from them in form of judgment. So that's something that I see happening with Danny. I didn't even know about this until you just started talking about this, Ali. So, man, I pray that justice occurs, that he goes to court. I don't even know really what's going on with the situation and that justice occurs. So yeah, Yeah, that just happens. There's always empty promises within a cult, but the only people who mainly really benefit from the cult are the people up top. Yeah. Like he wasn't fully up top. He was just being used by the cult as propaganda. Yeah. And again, just like the great distinction between a cult like this and Christianity, that Christianity is so upfront that we say, hey, like, you know what?

Starting point is 00:37:42 You're actually going to lose. You're going to lose a lot of your success and possibly your material wealth. you could possibly lose everything for following Christ. And we're not guaranteeing you success at all. We're not guaranteeing you certainly like a good reputation or power or prominence. In fact, you could lose everything if you follow Christ. We're not promising anything in this life except for forgiveness, freedom from your sins, the joy that comes with chasing after God. That's what you get.

Starting point is 00:38:12 We're not promising you anything else. And Christianity is so upfront about that, that our reward ultimately fully is eternal. And again, just, I mean, every cult, but every form of worshiping the God of self, rather than the God of Scripture, flips the gospel on its head and offers you something temporary in exchange for your soul. And, I mean, we're asked this, what does it profit a man to gain the entire world, whether it's in the form of Scientology, whether it's in the form of worshiping wealth, whatever it is, but lose his soul. So I appreciate this. This was a really great two-part rundown that we did. There's so much more to talk about with Scientology, just like anything else.

Starting point is 00:38:52 But I do hope people will go and listen to y'all's episodes that you've already dedicated to Scientology, listen to some of the people that have had those firsthand experiences. There's always more to learn. And as always, we pray for these people. We pray for, you know, David Miscavage. Like, we pray. He's, you know, made in the image of God. We pray that God would soften his heart that he would turn to Christ. That's what we pray for all these people. So, thank you guys so much. I really appreciate it. Absolutely. Thanks for having us on Alley. Hey, Relatable bells and Relative Bros.

Starting point is 00:39:34 If you could please leave us a five-star review, wherever you listen to Relatable, that would mean so much to us and it really does help the show. Also, if you haven't subscribed to our YouTube channel, please do. Thanks. Hey, this is Steve Dase. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever

Starting point is 00:40:18 they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this Steve Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 881 | Scientology, Rape Cover-Ups, & Forced Abortions | Guests: Jeremiah Roberts & Andrew Soncrant of 'Cultish' (Part Two)

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