Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 900 | How to Reach Gen Z with the Gospel | Guest: Dr. Sean McDowell (Part One)

Episode Date: November 1, 2023

Today we’re joined by professor and apologist Dr. Sean McDowell to discuss his work as a professor and how to share the truth of the gospel with the younger generations. First we discuss some of the challenges of living and teaching in a place like Southern California that is seen as a hub of secularism and progressivism. Dr. McDowell explains how in our culture, the voices from outside Christianity are encroaching more and more, and when young people aren't ready to defend their faith, it's even worse. We talk about how to approach LGBTQ issues with younger generations and why starting by asking questions is so important. We explain why, despite the importance of feelings, they don't trump truth and morality. Then, what is actual freedom, and does it mean we need more boundaries or fewer? --- Timecodes: (01:10) Intro (01:49) Challenges of living & teaching in California (04:40) Young peoples' preparedness as Christians (06:22) Biggest questions from young people (08:30) LGBTQ issues & feelings from theological perspective (14:12) Asking questions and listening before you speak (20:20) Why feelings don't trump truth (22:15) Freedom (32:30) Defining justice --- Today's Sponsors: A'Del — go to adelnaturalcosmetics.com and enter promo code "ALLIE" for 25% off your first order! CrowdHealth — get your first 6 months for just $99/month. Use promo code 'ALLIE' when you sign up at JoinCrowdHealth.com. --- Relevant Episodes: Ep 679 | Busting Atheism’s Biggest Myths | Guest: Dr. Neil Shenvi https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-679-busting-atheisms-biggest-myths-guest-dr-neil-shenvi/id1359249098?i=1000579610722 Ep 784 | Did the Resurrection Really Happen? | Guest: Jeremiah Johnston https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-784-did-the-resurrection-really-happen-guest/id1359249098?i=1000607756837 --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day Show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Today we are talking to Dr. Sean McDowell. He is an author as well as a professor of Christian apologetics at Biola University. And this is the first part of a two-part series. In this first conversation, we will be talking about how to approach apologetics issues with young people. He deals with this every day and the questions that they have is Christianity good. How do we deal with matters of identity? How much do feelings matter versus truth? How do we approach these very sensitive topics like LGBTQ issues?

He is going to prepare us today for those conversations that we have with the next generation in this first part of this two-part series. This episode is brought to by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to good ranchers.com. use code Alley at checkout. That's good ranchers.com code Alley. Dr. McDowell, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. For those who maybe haven't read your many, many books or seen your videos and all the awesome content that you put out, could you just tell us a little bit about who you are and

what you do? Yeah, honored to be here with you. You've been following your stuff for a while, so it's great to connect. I teach full time at Biola University of Christian School in Southern California, and I'm in the Department of Apologetics. And we can maybe get into that, but basically my job and my task is to defend the Christian faith as best that I can. So I'm an author. I'm a speaker. I have a YouTube channel like you do. I basically speak. I am a communicator with a heart on defending the Christian faith and also trying to reach the next generation. All right. So you're in an interesting spot for an apologist and someone who teaches apologetics. You are one at a university.

and two, you're at a Southern California University. And so you're at a different position than a lot of people are, certainly people in the Bible Belt, where you have most people around you are kind of familiar, or not you, but the general you of the people who live in the South, are familiar with Christianity, kind of even have a Christian basis, a little bit of a Christian worldview.

I have never lived in Southern California, but I've been to Southern California many times. So I imagine the students that you are interacting with and trying to equip, they face a lot of challenges in an area that is more hostile, I think, it seems like, to Christian view, certainly on marriage and gender and sexuality and abortion, then say you would find maybe in Georgia or Alabama or Texas. So tell us a little bit about what that's like. How do you navigate those fears?

So up until about two or three years ago, whenever I would travel and tell somebody I was from California, there was kind of a sense of like, wow, that's cool. I wish I lived in California. Now when I tell people, there's almost a sense of like pity and people look at me like, why do you still live there? What's a matter? That has shifted. You're right. There's unique challenges to being in California. Now, I do live in Orange County. So things are far more secular and liberal to the north in California and far more secular and liberal to the south in San Diego. But there's a ton of churches and influence of kind of conservative theological and political ideas in Orange County where I live. But bottom line, in some ways, it doesn't matter where a kid lives anymore today because

really the influence is coming through YouTube. It's coming through TikTok. It's coming through Twitter, you name it. So the kids in Southern California really have the same challenges when I go and talk to young people in Oklahoma. I go talk to young people in Texas. I think social, media has really leveled the playing field. Now, the data does show that parents are the most primary influencers of the next generation, but a lot of parents don't know how to capitalize this and speak into their kids. And there's so many endless voices coming to this generation that I think they're actually far more, and I mean Christian young people, far more secular in the way that they think than even biblical in the way that they think. How long have you been in the university system?

So I'm finishing up two decades of teaching high school. I taught high school 10 years full time. And then I've been doing it part time for the past 10 years. And I'm also just finished up, actually turning my grades last week, I finished up 10 years at Biola University. Wow. Okay. So has there been any kind of change for the better or for the worst that you've seen these young people coming up when it comes to their preparedness as Christians? to kind of face the different questions and challenges that people have for Christianity?

That's an interesting way to put it. I'm not sure that there's been a great change in the preparedness of this generation. I think what's happening is the voices from the outside are encroaching more and more. And then when young people aren't ready to defend their faith, it costs them more. So there's always been a challenge. I mean, my dad was teaching Christians to defend the faith starting in the 60s, the 70s and the 80s, we have never been great as a Christian community, knowing what we believe and why we believe it. But broadly speaking, Christian beliefs, you might say, I know there's

exceptions to this, but if you told someone you're a Christian, people might not follow those beliefs, but you'd kind of get a pat on the back like, good for you. But now with this generation, what happens is if you hold Christian beliefs, and in particular when it comes to issues of sexuality. You are bigoted, you are hateful, you are homophobic, and you are intolerant. And many people will shame you. So I don't know that it's more or less that we have a generation that's able to defend their faith. We've never been great at this, but it's personal with their friends. It's everywhere on social media. So you might say it costs this generation more than it has previous generations if they don't know what they believe and why they believe it.

What are some of the biggest questions that you get when you're talking to these students and they come to you and they say, I just don't know how to answer X. What is that typically? So this might be a helpful way to frame it. I think there's timeless questions and there's timely questions. So there's certain timeless questions every generation is going to ask. things like, why is there evil and suffering? Does God exist? Is there a purpose to my life? These kind of questions, people have always asked, and this generation in the right setting and the right way, is asking them too. But I also think there's certain timely questions that this generation is wrestling with. And I'd put him in a few big categories. One is I would say something about the

exclusiveness of Christianity. I mean, some of the biggest, what you might say, virtues that are pushed today on this generation. are things like diversity and inclusiveness. And Christianity, at the heart of it is Jesus, who claims to be the only way that can feel very exclusive. So there's kind of questions on that level. There's questions about the goodness of Christianity. I think some of the questions have shifted. For example, again, when my father was debating on college campuses in the 70s, 80s, 90s, there was kind of an assumption that there's such a thing as truth. Truth mattered. We could discover it. Give me the evidence for it. Now some of the key questions are about the goodness of

Christianity. It's not infrequent to hear many young people think, you know what, even if it is true, I don't want to believe it or follow it if it's not good. So there's questions about the uniqueness and exclusiveness Christianity, questions about the goodness of Christianity. There's a lot of questions about science and faith. And this could be the age of the earth, but even more so, there's science still is a kind of authority, I think, within our culture in this generation,

even though things are shifting towards feelings in some way. Yeah. But there's a sense amongst many young people that's like, if I follow Christianity, do I have to give up science? There's a lot of tension there. And then the last one, which in many ways is the elephant in the room,

are questions of LGBTQ and sexuality. If I open up for questions with this generation, These are always the top five about sexuality, about gender, about marriage. That question is probably some of the leading questions that I get. Yeah. And that last one about issues of identity and sexuality, I would guess is kind of paired with the first one or they kind of go hand in hand. You mentioned that the values that are kind of, that we're told are paramount today

are diversity and inclusion. And I would also say that empathy seems to be one. And that empathy is the best and the biggest thing for which a person should strive. And that is kind of, it seems, linked with this idea of needing to affirm in the name of empathy or some kind of new, fingled definition of love, people's choices when it comes to so-called gender identity or so-called sexual orientation. So tell me how you walk students through that. I mean, obviously, all students are all people everywhere, no matter what part of the world or America you're in, you're dealing with those questions, but especially where y'all are. It's just, I don't know if it's necessarily more common. It seems to be more flagrant, kind of more in your face.

So tell us how you walk students through those issues. So the first thing I would say is I love that you brought up the idea of empathy because sometimes adults and the older we get, we look at this new generation through a name. negative lens and are critical. I ask parents, teachers, youth workers, pastors to describe this generation. And some of the first words that come out are like entitled, coddled, disconnected. And then I'll ask people, I'll say, okay, we're the words that you use positive or negative. And then you'll see the eyes opening up of the audience and they realize, wow, I have a really negative view of this generation. And I'll say the way you view this generation is going to shape the way you relate to them. So I do have concerns about our culture. I do have concerns about

Gen Z, but to me, it's an opportunity to minister to and relate to this younger generation. Now, how do I approach it? One of the first things I do is I just want to listen to somebody. I mean, in the back of somebody's mind so often is, if you're a Christian, you're bigoted, you're tarant, you're hateful, God doesn't like gays, is the understanding. And I think one of the ways to start turning this is to just be the kind of person that says, you know what, I love you, I care about you. I want to hear out your story first. So if somebody comes out to me and that's happened many times or somebody wants to have a debate

about these issues, I'll just take a step back and say, tell me you think. Tell me why you think that. Help me understand where you are coming from and hear their story and make sure they understand that I care, then I'm a safe person, not in the sense that I'm a safe person, not in the sense that I won't challenge ideas, but I'm not going to judge them, and I'm up for a conversation with them. So that's step number one is don't freak out, just ask questions, enter into a relationship, because I'd like to have an ongoing conversation with this young person for a long time. And then the second thing I found I have to do is just slightly deconstruct certain assumptions

about what Jesus taught about sexuality and about why the Bible has certain teachings that it has. So I found whether it's non-Christians or Christian kids, they don't have a clue why the Bible teaches what it teaches. So I would help young people understand. Yeah, God's given us certain commandments. But these commandments are not to steal your fun, not to oppress you. These commandments are actually to set you free. They're for your good.

And they're to help you flourish as an individual. That's where I want to shift the conversation to, if possible. So we talk a lot on this podcast about what the Bible says about marriage, about sexuality, about gender and things like that. But when you're talking in a one-on-one conversation, you said that you've got students who tell you, look, I'm same-sex attracted or whatever. And they hear you say, look, God says that he made us male and female, brought male and female together in the bonds of marriage for your good. I imagine that that is really difficult for someone to hear. If your feelings feel like your reality, they even feel like your identity and to be told that how you feel and what you think defines you is actually sin, I imagine that that's

a difficult thing to hear and it's difficult to understand, but why? Like why would I have these feelings? Why does God say that one thing is good and one thing is wrong when it comes to this? So how do you approach that from a personal and relational level? Well, one of the main things I'm going to do is I'm going to ask a lot of questions to understand exactly where this young person is coming from. So if it's somebody who has same-sex attraction, tell me the first time you experienced same-sex attraction. Tell me who you came out to first and why. Tell me how they treated you.

How do this affect the way you think about God? There's a whole lot in the Bible that talks about listening before you speak. It's in James 1. It's all over the Proverbs. So I'm going to listen a whole lot to this person and just try to understand their worldview where they're coming from. Then I'll probably shift and I'll say, do you understand what the Bible teaches about this? A lot of people don't even understand what the Bible actually teaches about sexuality.

And then I'm going to simply ask questions. Like, why do you think the Bible teaches this? Have you ever thought through why the Bible says marriage is one man? and one woman for life. Why do you think God set it up this way? And I'm going to listen and I'm just going to push back to God's design and God's intent. Now, in one sense, all of us, the biblical message is that we are all sinners and fallen short. So the biblical message on this issue or any issue is offensive.

I don't want to soften that and pretend that God doesn't have certain standards on sexuality. One way to do this is I do think we owe it to people to be very clear what the Bible says. We can't sidestep that. But in many conversations, I've framed this as somebody, I've said, look, if there were a God who loved you and he gave certain design for sexuality and relationships, would you be willing to listen to and follow what that God said? Now, that's a very revealing question because it reveals whether the person says, I don't care what God says. I'm going to live however I want to, then that person is not really even open to it. If they say, yes, I would follow what God says. I'd say, okay, let's look at what God says.

Let's look at the person of Jesus as much as I can, Allie. I try to get to the person of Jesus and ask the question, who is Jesus? Because I think he speaks to every generation, but in particular this generation. He cries out against hypocrisy. Jesus loved those who are marginalized. And of course, when we use the word marginalized, that has a little bit of a different understanding today than it did in the time of Jesus,

but he valued those who were hurting that were not valued by society. I want to draw it to the love and compassion and person of Jesus. And then say, what did Jesus view about marriage and why? Now, if the person is open to it, here's kind of an exercise that I will try to do. This is oftentimes more kind of in a classroom. But if an individual is open to it, I've asked them this question a few times.

I'll say something like, how do you think the world would be if everybody lived out the sexual ethic of Jesus? Would it be better? Would it be the same? Or would it be worse? Now, before I ask him to answer that, and you know this, Allie, I'm going to have to define what the sexual ethic of Jesus is. And very simply, there's two ways to live in God honoring relationships. Number one is being single and number two is being married. Now, if you are single, Jesus was single, Paul was single, Jeremiah was likely single,

then you're not sexually active. If you are married, it's one person of the opposite sex you become one flesh for one lifetime. Then I'll just ask, I'll say, imagine if everybody who was single was not sexually active, and those who are married to somebody the opposite sex were only sexually active with their spouse, how would that affect society? And very quickly, people start to realize, wow, there'd be no crude sexual humor. There'd be no need for the Me Too movement. There'd be no abortion and the dead unborn babies, not to mention the hurt in the lives of women.

There'd be no pornography. There'd be no divorce. The point in that question is to try to challenge a young person to think without just pointing to the Bible as powerful as that is, is that maybe God has a design for sex and sexuality that is for our objective good. That's where I want to move things if a young person is open to it. Yes. And then just the conversation about what we feel, whether it's sexuality or anything, because all of our feelings drive us at some point, really all sin, anytime we disobey God, it is self-worship. It's saying we know better than God. I know God says this.

I'm going to do something else because my feelings are so strong and I would rather follow them than follow the God of the universe. How do you approach that conversation, especially as you mentioned earlier, with a generation, again, we're all guilty of this to some extent, but with a generation that has placed so much emphasis on feelings where feelings really have become God. You mentioned that at one point there was at least some kind of general assumption in society that truth exists. Now, of course, as you've heard, it's my truth and it's your truth, and it's really based on just how you feel.

Everything is subjective. So how do you approach that conversation, whether it's about sexuality, whether it's about gender, just morality and truth in general. Why don't feelings trump objective reality or some kind of universal morality? So one thing I don't want to do is downplay the importance and value and beauty of feelings. Sometimes apologists and Christian thinkers will just push it down. Don't ever follow your feelings. You can't trust. I think, well, maybe we're swinging a little bit too far to the other direction.

But I will just ask simple questions like, do you think it's wise to live a life based solely or entirely or primarily upon how you feel? Would that set you more free or would that invite more problems into your life? one of my biggest strategies, Ali, is I just ask questions. Jesus told stories and he asked questions. He asked 339 questions. We have 262 questions from Paul. So in interacting with anybody, and especially with the younger person, I want to put the burden of proof upon them and just make them think. So if I say it's a bad idea to live your life on feelings, up comes the defense from an adult telling a young person how to live. And I was that way too. But if I just say, hey, think about your life.

How do you think your diet or your job or anything in life would be if you based it upon your feelings? And I think young people can start to unravel and realize that it's not going to work out. Now, lurking behind this, I think, is one of the biggest confusions that this generation has. It's about the nature of freedom. I think one of the biggest lies this generation is tempted to believe is about what freedom is. So when you ask almost any young person, really not just a young person, how would you define freedom? Essentially freedom is, here's the definition that I've been given many times, doing whatever you want without restraint. You be you.

If you want it, do it. That's what the real freedom is. So I've had many conversations with young people and I'll say, okay, do you think it's possible to do what you want and not be free? Even if you feel like it and you want it, is it possible to have that desire and do it and not be free? An example I'll give. I'll say, what if a husband or a wife comes home from work and says, I don't really want to be with my spouse and kids tonight. I just want to go look at pornography alone. And that's what they want to do it and they do it.

are they more free? I think everybody realizes just doing what you feel or doing what you want doesn't necessarily live to freedom. And the reason is because we can have the wrong wants. I want to introduce to this generation, freedom's not do whatever you feel, whatever you want. It's actually cultivating the right wants. And then second, I'll say, is freedom rejecting restraint? Remember again, the definition is do whatever you want without.

restraint. And an example I like to use, I'll say, take a piano. One person takes a bat and just says, I can do whatever I want. No restraint. I feel like this and just bashes a piano. The other person says, wait a minute, I understand what a piano is for its design. And they've cultivated the ability to play. And they sit down and they play Bach or Mozart or beautiful worship music. I'll ask young people, which student is more free? And I think they intuitively understand that freedom is not just rejecting restraint. It's embracing the right restraint. So freedom's not doing whatever you feel like or whatever you want. If your feelings don't match up with what is good, or if you have the wrong wants. Freedom is not rejecting restraint. It actually comes with the right

restraint. I am free in my relationship with my wife because we say no to everybody else. It's actually those restraints that set us free. So I'm unpacking this alley because I think behind these phrases that young people will say things like, you know, freedom is just live your truth. We have to spend far more time clarifying, okay, what is truth? How do we find it? What is freedom? What is the good life? We have to recognize that beneath these simple aphorisms that we hear from young people are just a host of secular ideas that they've imbibed. We've, and we've, we've got to slowly deconstruct them and replace them with the truth. Hey, this is Steve Day.

If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's

unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over our hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day Show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Because I'm a mom of young kids, of toddlers, I always think of these kind of metaphors. And it's so true in different areas of raising young kids. But my kids are a lot freer in the backyard than they are in the front yard. The reason why you don't have to worry as much, they don't have as many

rules, they can run around as much as they want to go as far as they possibly can is because there's a fence there. And the front yard, we're right by the street. And so I am a lot more, I'm a lot quicker to put restrictions on what they do, how, you know, what they can go get, how far they can throw the ball, how far they can run, because there's no boundaries. There's no fences there. So they're actually less free when there are no boundaries and no restrictions than they are in a place where there are boundaries. It's the same thing as true of a crib or a pack-and-play or any of these things, these things actually make our kids not just safer, but more free, because within those boundaries, they can move around as much as they want to. When we remove those boundaries,

there's dangers all around that we actually have to, that they can fall into if there aren't those restrictions. So I think about that, as you're talking, I think that's such a good point. And then I also think about Galatians 5 that talks about the very principle that you are speaking to. of course verse one says for freedom christ is set us free stand firm therefore do not submit again to a yoke of slavery and then he talks about you know the christians falling back into the law and the different forms of legalism that they were told uh would be symbols of holiness and he says no that's that's not that's not what we're doing anymore we're not called to find our holiness and our righteousness in these different kind of external symbols that are uh that are given to us by the law but he says

in verse 16, but I say, walk by the spirit and you will, or, sorry, actually, let me back up a little bit. Verse 13, for you are called the Freedom Brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love, serve one another. So that's what you're talking about. Freedom doesn't mean doing whatever you want without restraint. It means being restrained by something better, right? So I think there's two ways to look at freedom that you're unpacking. Number one is freedom, from. This is what we might call negative freedom. Freedom from fear. Freedom from guilt. Freedom from sin, as Paul talks about in Galatians. That's negative freedom. But there's also freedom for, which is positive freedom. So for example, if I pick up my smartphone, this has been designed by somebody.

It's not a waffle maker. It's not a scuba tank. It's certainly not a parachute. It's only when I understand what this is for and use it accordingly that somebody is set free. So there's no coincidence that the Bible starts with in the beginning God created. The first thing we're told about God is not that God is love or just or holy or merciful, but that God is a creator. Because if we are created, there's a purpose for us like a smartphone about how we're supposed to operate, so to speak. That's why the issue of creation is so heated and so debated because people realize if there is a creator, then purpose is built into the world. And I'm only free when I understand that purpose. It was G.K. Chesterton, the great British writer, over a century plus ago,

he kind of made the point. He said, there's no freedom without truth. Take, for example, a camel. You can free a camel from the zoo. but don't free a camel from its hump. Having a hump is part of what it means to be a camel. Same with a tiger. You can free a tiger from the zoo, but don't free it from its stripes. It's only when we understand what a camel is.

We understand what a tiger is and help it live according to its design that it's set free. So this raises the question, is there a God who's designed us to live a certain way? If not, then live however you want. follow your feelings, seize the day, so to speak. But if there is a God who's designed us to live a certain way, then just like you read from Galatians, we are only free

when we know the world as God has made it and conform our lives to that truth. That's what brings real freedom. And that brings you back to the example you gave with your kids. God has given us fences and boundaries of marriage. He's given us fences and boundaries of gender. And it's not rejecting those that brings freedom. It's actually following them that brings the most freedom for individuals and for society.

Yes. And that really gets to the heart of everything, as you just mentioned, whether it's gender or sex or abortion. It all goes back to really the first verse of the first chapter of the Bible that God created the heavens in the earth. If you believe that, that really changes everything. That means he not just created it, but if he created it, he is the authority over all of it. He is the definer of all of it. He is the arbiter then of right and wrong, true and false, what is it, male and female, all of that. I mean, there's a lot packed into that.

And it really is a debate over telos. It's a debate over purpose. Like, were we given an intrinsic purpose? Are we human beings made in the image of God with innate value, with an innate purpose? Or are we all just cosmic accidents? Are we all just clumps of cells and balls of matter? If that's the case, why not self-identify? Why not just follow your feelings?

Why not just subject, objective reality to whatever you want and however you feel? Why not just decide that a baby in a womb is not really a human because you don't want it to be? It really all goes back to who is in charge and who created us and why. Don't you think? I do. And I think here's what's important for. people to realize when we debate or discuss abortion or we debate marriage or racial injustice, whatever topic we want to talk about, we tend to think it's just about the facts and it's

about the particular issue at play. What people don't realize is behind it. There are entirely different worldview assumptions at play. Is there a God who made us? Is there a purpose built into the world? Are we actually made in God's image? as male and female. Do human beings have intrinsic value? I mean, for me, at the root of biblical justice, is we should be against racial injustice because every single person, regardless of their skin color,

is made in the image of God. The reason we should care about poverty is because everybody rich or poor is made in the image of God. The reason we should think about marriage is and care about marriage and defend, marriage is because God has made us male and female and built that into the fabric of society. And kids need a mom and kids need a dad. The reason we should care about pro-life is because every single human being, whether in the

womb or out of the womb, rich or poor, black or white, male or female, is made in the image of God and has infinite dignity and value and worth. So behind all these issues are deeper worldview commitments. So if we just discuss on the surface and don't get to some of those deeper worldview commitments, number one, our society is going to get more and more divided, but will not make any headway in our conversations with people. And of course, with all of those things, like something that is kind of as there are so many things packed into a term like racial justice or social justice. Anytime you put an adjective before justice, we have to define our terms. And as Christians, we have to define justice how God defines justice. Of course, I totally agree with your principle.

I just kind of wanted to put that caveat in there that we don't want to just accept what the world says is racial justice or social justice or any of these things, inclusion, diversity, all of that stuff. We have to make sure that we're going back to the definer of all things to make sure that our definitions align with his. Okay, I know that you guys were so encouraged by that conversation. I was too. We talk about these issues a lot and yet I feel like I learned so much from someone who is in these kinds of debates and discussions on a daily basis on a college campus. So I hope that was helpful to you guys.

That was part one. Part two is coming. We're going to talk about creation, Young Earth versus New Earth. What is the support for these kinds of arguments? how should we approach them? How should we approach them in conversations with unbelievers, as well as the evidence that we have for Jesus Christ, for the resurrection, and why those things matter? And then he's also going to give even more encouragement to us too and helping the next generation think through these things. So thanks so much for listening. Stay tuned for part two.

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this

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