Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 904 | My Response to Andy Stanley's LGBTQ Sermon

Episode Date: November 8, 2023

Today is the long-awaited response to Andy Stanley's LGBTQ sermon at the Unconditional Conference. We go in-depth with what exactly Stanley said in his sermon about Christianity in relation to LGBTQ issues and "identities" and his statement that Rosaria Butterfield and Dr. Christopher Yuan, who have an abundance of wisdom on this topic, have nothing to say to parents struggling with their kids' LGBTQ "identities." But what does Stanley get wrong by claiming that homosexuality is an identity, and why does it matter? We answer these questions and underline one of LGBTQ-affirming Christianity's biggest faults. --- Timecodes: (03:43) Background (07:36) Dr. Al Mohler's WORLD (12:59) Reaction to Unconditional Conference (18:32) Response to Stanley's sermon (38:29) Laure Perry, Christopher Yuan, Rosaria Butterfield, Becket Cook (52:02) Dr. Michael Brown & Andy Stanley (56:40) Gender confusion: Stanley vs. the Bible (01:03:00) God's definition of marriage --- Today's Sponsors: A'Del — go to adelnaturalcosmetics.com and enter promo code "ALLIE" for 25% off your first order! Carly Jean Los Angeles — use promo code 'ALLIEBASICS' to save 25% off your first order at CarlyJeanLosAngeles.com! My Patriot Supply — prepare yourself for anything with long-term emergency food storage. Get $200 of survival gear when you buy a Four-Month Emergency Food Kit when you go to MyPatriotSupply.com. Holy Pals — Get your child pajamas that help make the Bible a regular part of their life at home. Go to HolyPals.com and use promo code ALLIE at checkout for a discount. Samaritan's Purse — demonstrate God's love in a tangle way by providing a Christmas shoebox to a child. Visit SamaritansPurse.org/OCC to learn how to pack a shoebox or build one online. --- Links: WORLD: "Go and sin no more" https://wng.org/opinions/go-and-sin-no-more-1696305138 --- Relevant Episodes: Ep 896 | From 'Trans Man' to Transformed by Christ | Guest: Laura Perry Smalts (Part One) https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-896-from-trans-man-to-transformed-by-christ-guest/id1359249098?i=1000632613519 Ep 897 | A Detransitioner on the Lie of Trans ‘Joy’ | Guest: Laura Perry Smalts (Part Two) https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-897-a-detransitioner-on-the-lie-of-trans/id1359249098?i=1000632747460 Ep 859 | Why You Can't Be a Gay Christian | Guest: Dr. Christopher Yuan https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-859-why-you-cant-be-a-gay-christian-guest-dr/id1359249098?i=1000625169321 Ep 796 | Former Lesbian Activist Calls “Soft” Christians to Repentance | Guest: Rosaria Butterfield https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-796-former-lesbian-activist-calls-soft-christians/id1359249098?i=1000610921016 --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Pastor Andy Stanley hosted a conference called the Unconditional Conference that Minnie Arsane was gay affirming. I am finally giving you my thoughts, my commentary on this conference and also Andy Stanley's explanation of this conference. This episode is brought to you by our friends at GoodRanchers. Go to GoodRanchers.com. Use Code Alley. That's good ranchers.com. Code Alley. Hey guys, welcome to relatable. Happy Wednesday. Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far.

Okay, we're finally getting into this Andy Stanley LGBTQ sermon. I said several weeks ago on Instagram that I was going to give you my response on it. And then I just ran out of time. I just didn't have time. I'm a busy girl. And so I'm kind of glad I did wait, though. because now I've really had time to think about it and I'm able to give a proper thoughtful, more thoughtful response on the podcast. And so I know I'm a little behind. There have been so many Christians, so many people that have reacted to it and have given really good responses. So I'm not sure that I'm going to say anything that you haven't already heard, but for a lot of you, this is the only podcast that you listen to.

And you've been waiting on my reaction to the sermon. and so I wanted to be sure to give you my thoughts. And just so you know, a couple things, I want to say, I have listened to this sermon now three times. And so I'm not attempting to take anything out of context. I didn't not listen. I listened very thoroughly. And I was hoping to be pleasantly surprised by the sermon.

As you will hear, I was not pleasantly surprised. I was very saddened by what I heard, and I'll explain why. but I really listened to it from a place of hoping to be able to understand and hoping that the crux of the message would be something that I would be able to agree with. As you will hear, there are parts of this sermon that I did agree with. Absolutely. And I will talk about that. But I really think it missed the mark in a very, very big and eternal way, actually. And just so you know, I have reached out to Pastor Andy Stanley. We reached out. Our team did. in the hopes that he would come on the show and he was not available to do so, that's fine.

I have no hard feelings. I certainly don't accept every interview invitation that I receive. And so he wasn't able to come on, but I genuinely did want to have a conversation with him because I like a lot of what Andy Stanley says. I mean, let's just acknowledge that he is an excellent communicator. I think there is a lot that we can learn from him when it comes to communication. He might be one of the best communicators that I know. his father was a great communicator too. I think that there are many pastors that can learn from Andy Stanley's communication style

and the way he is able to simplify very complex ideas. Not everyone has that skill. Not everyone has that talent. Andy Stanley does. And I very much appreciate that. As someone who was always seeking to do that myself to simply and concisely and, well, maybe not concisely, but clearly explain something that's complicated. I very much appreciate that about him.

However, there are some major theological things that I disagree with him on, and one of them is how he talks about the issue, if you will, of LGBTQ. Before we actually get into the sermon, let me back up a little bit and explain to you why we're talking about this, why he even gave the sermon that he did. So several months ago, there were headlines that were published. I first saw it, I think, in the Christian Post, that there was a conference that Andy Stanley's Church, North Point Community Church, major church in Atlanta has campuses in different areas, that they would be hosting a conference called the unconditional conference. And the unconditional conference was supposed to be for parents of those who identify as LGBTQ. So this was to provide resources for them.

community for them in a way that was meant to ensure that these parents could maintain or restore relationships with their children. The stated purpose was also to make sure that these parents were equipped to show the children, their children, the love of God, the love of Christ. It says to build bridges between LGBTQ plus individuals, their families and the church, not in spite of the Bible, but because of the Bible, drawing parents and children into a deeper relationship with each other and vertically with God. So this is by embracing the journey, which is a ministry that was founded by people named Greg and Lynn McDonald, and they have experiences, as we will talk about, Andy Stanley explained, as Christian parents with a son who came out as gay. And so their ministry

kind of initiated this conference, helped build this conference, and so their mission was also the mission of the unconditional conference. Now, the reason why this was making headlines was because of some of the people who were invited. And I will get into this a little bit more, but some of the people were seen as very controversial. Even Greg and Lynn McDonald themselves were seen by many people as controversial because they have a son who has come out as gay, and this son is now I believe still engaged to be married or maybe in what they would call a marriage relationship. They have a picture with their entire family, including the fiancé, on the website of the ministry that says, you know, this is a picture of our family, including our son's fiance.

And so it caused a lot of people to raise their eyebrows and ask the question, is this couple affirming the LGBTQ lifestyle or not? And then someone that people have fewer questions about, but more concerned about was a person named Justin Lee, who is in what some would call a gay marriage. He is actively gay. He is in a romantic relationship with a man. He professes Christianity. He runs an organization that seeks to reconcile Christianity and particularly evangelicals with LGBTQ people. And so, of course, people looked at some of these speakers, in particular, Justin.

Lee and his partner, Brian, and said, well, is this a gay affirming conferences? Andy Stanley gay affirming? This is a little bit troubling for someone who says that he holds to the definition of biblical marriage. And so that's why this was making headlines. This is why I originally talked about it. There were a couple more speakers that were speaking and then pulled out of the conference that I was troubled by.

but I was particularly troubled, disturbed by the invitation or the platforming of a man who claims to be an active Christian and is living an active gay lifestyle. Apparently he was seen as a trusted, good, reputable, even biblical resource for Christian parents whose kids have come out as gay or confused about their gender. This prompted Dr. Al Muller. He's been on this podcast before. I really respect Dr. Mueller. And he is the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville. He is a big name. And the SBC has been for a very long time. And he wrote an article for World Magazine that says, Go and Sin No More. Andy Stanley doubles down on his departure from biblical Christianity. He wrote an article on September 18th called The Train is Leaving the Station, Andy Stanley's departure from biblical Christianity. He starts the article like this. It's not like we have not seen this coming.

It's not like we have not seen this coming. In the coming days, Andy Stanley is set to host the unconditional conference at a campus of North Point Community Church in the Metro Atlanta area, and the website for the conference bills it as a two-day premier event, especially designed for parents of, quote, LGBTQ plus children and ministry leaders. you'll be equipped, refreshed, inspired, as you hear from leading communicators on topics that speak to your heart, soul, and mind. And then they promised a quote-unquote quieter middle space. And Mueller says this might appear attractive given the volatility of cultural discourse on LGBTQ issues and a conference designed to help parents of these children and ministry leaders work through these issues and clearly biblical terms would be a welcome development. But Mueller says, the advertising for the unconditional conference

indicates clearly that this event is designed as a platform for normalizing the LGBTQ revolution while claiming that the conference represents the quieter middle space. In truth, there is no middle space on these issues, and it is no longer plausible to claim that such middle space exists. Then he goes on to talk about some of these speakers, one of whom I just described to you, Justin Lee, and what he would call his husband, Brian Nietzell, that he also says another major speaker is David Gushy, a prompt. prominent intellectual who has been honest about his own change of mind on the moral status of

LGBTQ plus behaviors and relationships. In the definitive edition of his book, Changing Our Mind, subtitled as a landmark call for inclusion of LGBT Christians, he traces his own pilgrimage to eager LGBTQ advocacy. So that was another speaker at this event hosted by Andy Stanley and his church. And so he is concerned about this. Is this really a middle space? from what we see, at least on the roster of speakers, there weren't anyone who would actually represent. I don't even know if I would call it the conservative theological position on marriage, but just the historic belief of marriage, the biblical definition of marriage. It was an affirming conference, at least what we could see from the website.

And then Albert Miller goes on to say that Andy Stanley is one of the most influential pastors in the United States. and that he goes through some of the controversies that he's been embroiled in over the years based on some of the things that he has said. One of the quotes that I thought was interesting that Albert Mueller pulled was, if your theology gets in the way of ministry, like if there's somebody you can't minister to because of your theology, you have the wrong theology. I think that's an important quote to remember as we look at some of the things that Andy Stanley said

in his sermon that we're about to get into. And so Albert Miller goes on to say, that, you know, maybe we can give the benefit of the doubt. Maybe the conference won't actually be affirming. Maybe it's something totally different than it's being advertised, but that would be a really big change from what we are actually seeing at the website. So the sermon that Andy Stanley preached is in response to this article. It's in response to this article.

So we'll get in to that as well as what actually happened at the conference, which happened before Andy Stanley gave his sermon response. to this Albert Mueller article. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself.

On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over. for chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this T-Day Show right here on Blaze TV or listen

wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. All right. So Andy Stanley was not happy about this article published in September by Al Mueller. So he responded to it. But he responded to it after this unconditional conference that Al-Muller wrote his article about. So let me tell you a little bit about that conference. I did not attend that conference. I had just had a child. I wasn't planning to attend to the conference just to be perfectly honest. But I can tell you some of the reaction to that conference by people who were there. And I think that's probably as close as we can get to a proper understanding of what actually went down. And so there was an attendee who talked about his experience on Twitter. His name is Zach Lambert, and he is a progressive. I believe he's a

pastor, but he gives a lot of progressive commentary on Twitter or X, and his biblical interpretation is very progressive, very liberal. He is very LGBT affirming. He attended the conference because he wanted to see what it was about. So here's what he had to say about Andy Stanley's Unconditional Conference. He said, I was at the now infamous Unconditional Conference last week at Andy Stanley's North Point Church put on by embracing the journey. I went to be with them dear friends, but more than that, I want to see if this conference would be yet another bait and switch, a space that claimed to be safe and supportive of LGBTQ plus folks, but was actually all about telling them they need to leave behind their

sexual orientation and or gender identity to fully follow Jesus. He said this was not a bait and switch. It was safe, supportive, and affirming. They explicitly communicated that they were not trying to change anyone's theology, and they didn't. But every speaker, video, book, and breakout I saw fully affirmed LGBTQ folks. Okay? That's what this attendee said. I saw pastors advocating for inclusion, parents welcoming their children, same-sex partners, and the family, trans folks sharing their transition stories and queer people leading at literally every level. So it's interesting because, as we'll

talk about, Andy says, this was not a conference to change people's minds, to debate, to change people's theology and yet it was. I'm sure that if a conservative person walked into that room or someone who held to the tenets of biblical sexuality and all they heard was affirmation, affirmation, what is that but an attempt to persuade in a particular direction? You can say that's just shepherding, you can say that's just pastoring, but if everyone is coming from a particular perspective, that is persuasion, even if someone is not pointing their finger at you and saying you must believe this. I mean, Andy Stanley knows this. He knows the power of communication and persuasion. And of course, if you have everyone presenting one particular position that is going to be persuasive.

So he's right. It wasn't a debate there. It wasn't something where they were having an interesting and nuanced discussion about what position to take, apparently, according to this person. It was just one position, one perspective, which is that of according to this person affirmation. And then he said on Sunday, Andy preached a sermon explaining why North Point hosts to the conference. The sermon was compiled of one minute I completely disagreed with. He said North Point still teaches that biblical marriage is between one man and one woman. Andy Stanley does say that in his sermon that we're about to get into in 48 minutes of advocating

for full inclusion of LGBTQ plus folks in the church. Andy said this is an issue where they don't want to draw lines that exclude, but circles that fully include everyone, married, gay folks, trans folks, and everyone. else. So that is someone who attended the conference, who was a progressive, who was very happy with the conference that everyone was affirming. Now, one of the conference speakers, Brian Nitzel, he is the guy who was a quote unquote husband to Justin Lee, another conference speaker who Andy Stanley platforms and actually says in his sermon that Brian and Justin have talked multiple times at North Point Church. Here's something that he says in a tweet thread.

And after the conference, he said this. He quoted a gay affirming pastor in his thread that says, I've come to realize that LGBTQ plus people are the ones who are going after the sheep that lost their way. As a pastor, I'm the sheep that needed saving. Consider that LGBTQ plus people may be our rescuers, that they are the ones who can help us back to God's love by showing us where we have gone wrong. So this was one of the conference speakers. This is what he believes.

That was not his quote. He's quoting someone else saying that, but he put that in his tweet as something that he appreciates and believes. This was someone who spoke at Andy Stanley's conference, someone who is in a quote unquote gay marriage. There's so much wrong with this quote replacing Jesus, who is supposed to be the shepherd that finds the lost sheep with gay people. Jesus shouldn't be replaced with anyone.

But you are saying that people who are living in act of sin and rebellion against God's word that they are actually the shepherd going after the lost sheep who are the non-affirming people. This is the kind of person that spoke at this conference. Okay, let's get in to the actual sermon by Andy Stanley, responding to all the criticism, talking about the conference, responding in particular to Al Muller. So he talks about, he just brings up, he doesn't say Dr. Mueller's name. He just says there's a very influential Christian leader who wrote this article about me that I think is so terrible. And it's called The Train is Leaving the Station, Andy Stanley's departure from biblical Christianity. And that's how he kind of starts the sermon. He says,

it's absolutely wrong. And then here's what he has to say about Albert Mueller and the article. His version of biblical Christianity is the problem. His version, this version of biblical is why people are leaving Christianity unnecessarily. It's the version that causes people to resist the Christian faith because they can't find Jesus in the midst of all the other stuff and all the other theology and all the other complexity that gets globed on. Wow. Wow.

That's a really big statement. He goes on to say that Jesus did not draw lines. He drew circles. That he and Dr. Mueller do not have the same version of Christianity. and that Dr. Mueller's version of Christianity is actually what is pushing people away. So what's ironic about this is that he accuses Dr. Mueller of being divisive. He accuses Dr. Mueller of drawing lines. He accuses Dr. Mueller of creating fault lines, I guess, where there shouldn't be and, you know,

punching below the belt. And yet he does the same thing here. He's drawing a really big line. He's drawing a big line, not just between himself and Dr. Mueller. He is apparently drawing a really big line. line between himself and everyone who believes the same thing the Dr. Mueller does, which is, of course, the biblical definition of sexuality and gender and marriage.

I mean, talk about drawing a line by saying that someone who does not subscribe to the same doctrines that you do, the same beliefs that you do is repelling people from Christianity. That's, quote, unquote, divisive, isn't it? Isn't that a dividing line? so you draw circles, but Dr. Mueller is the one who stands outside of the circle. That's really, that's really interesting. That's a really intense thing to say. He goes on to basically explain why they had this unconditional conference. He goes all the way back to 2014, then he goes back to 2011, where he says that there was an issue that the church was facing, that middle school and high school

leaders, that the ministry leaders of the middle school and high school ministries at North Point community church came to Andy and said, look, our small group leaders don't know how to deal, don't know how to deal with students who are coming out to them. They don't know what to say. They don't know what their response is. So can we create some kind of curriculum, some kind of toolkit to give these kids so they know how to respond to these students who are coming out to them? And Andy Stanley said, yes, we should absolutely, that we should absolutely do this. and he goes on to explain, which I think is true, how difficult it is for a young Christian kid to realize that they have feelings of same-sex attraction. He goes on to explain that a lot of these kids do not want this, that they're terrified by the feelings that they find themselves having, that they pray it away and they hope that God changes them.

They don't want to talk to anyone. And when they do finally work up the courage to tell someone that they're telling these small group leaders and these small group leaders don't know what to say, but they should know what to say. all of that I agree with I agree with that I do think kids that wrestle with these feelings are terrified they do feel isolated they do feel alone and that Satan wants them to stay alone Satan wants them to remain in the darkness Satan wants them to not tell anyone I do think it is wonderful that they felt safe enough that they felt secure enough at their church that they were coming to their smog group leaders that they were coming to church leaders and saying hey here's what's going on in my heart and mind and body help me I don't know

what to do with this. I agree with that. I think we can empathize with those feelings of confusion and those feelings of fear and isolation. And I also agree with what Andy Stanley says when he says, the church should be the safest place for students to talk about anything, including same-sex attraction. I agree with that, except I would ask, what is actually meant by the word safe? What is meant by the word safe? By safe do you mean that they, are going to receive love, biblical love, which is inextricably intertwined with truth? Is that what you mean by safe? Or do you mean affirming? Do you mean it's okay? It's okay to embrace feelings of same-sex attraction. It's okay to embrace a different identity that is the opposite of your biological

sex. What is meant by safe? If you just mean that yes, they are going to receive kindness, they are going to receive love and gentle admonition and truth and someone to walk alongside them and disciple them as they learn to walk in repentance as we all must do no matter what our struggles are then I agree with that but if by safe you mean affirming then I cannot agree with that because it is not loving ever to affirm the thing that is going to kill someone which is sin which is sin all sin um here's what he has to say when he is explaining kind of the plight of these students who are struggling with sexuality. Depending on the church that they attend, they are literally afraid they are going to hell.

Not because of anything they've done, but because of who they are. Because of the message, not of culture, the message of the church. I have a lot to say to those last few words. So Andy Stanley right there. And this is something that he says. in a few different ways, a few times throughout this sermon that I think is the fundamental flaw of all of this and is actually upstream from a lot of the other things he says that I just disagree with. They feel shame not for something that they've done, but for who they are.

No. No. You are not your attractions. You are not your feelings. You are not your temptations. you are not your sin and yes thoughts lust desire for same-sex attraction that is a sin it is sinful romans one actually explains that very well that these are sinful desires and so no these students are not ashamed of who they are because they are not their thoughts they are not their lust they are not their attraction. These are sinful inclinations that they all have because we all have sinful thoughts. We all have sinful attractions to some things or sinful temptations. But no, this is not who they are. This is not their identity. Because if you say that this is their identity, then you tell them that this is inescapable, that this is a core part of you and your identity. And that is simply not biblical.

we are not our feelings what they are ashamed of they are ashamed of their temptations they're ashamed of they're scared of these things they're scared of their feelings they're scared of their temptations and yes that is very normal that is a very scary and fearful feeling absolutely but it is not who they are and that is so important i think to separate our identity from the sexual feelings that we have from the sexual attraction that we have, from whatever confusion that we have, that is not their identity. Someone who is in Christ, someone who is a Christian, has been bought with a price by him and is a new creation. I mean, 1st Corinthians 619 through 20 is very relevant here. Or do you not know that your body, your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you,

whom you have from God? You are not your own. you were bought with a price, so glorify God in your body. That is the good news. For whatever struggle you have, for whatever temptation you have, whatever feelings or attractions you have, that you are not those things. That you are in Christ, if you are a Christian, bought with a price. You are indeweled by the Holy Spirit that God has graciously given you. And you are no longer your own.

You are no longer mastered by those desires, mastered by those feelings because you were bought with a price, which is the blood of Christ. So you can, you have the power to with the Holy Spirit that is in you, glorify God in your body. Yes, you can do that. All of us can through the power of the Holy Spirit. No, this is not who you are. This is a struggle and we are all ashamed in one way or another

of maybe the struggles we have had in the past or the temptations that we face today. But no, Andy Stanley, your attraction is not who you are. I also notice that in this vein, he often says LGBTQ plus, and he states that as an identity. It's very, like, that's very progressive to say LGBTQ plus. What does the plus even means? I mean, the plus really means infinity, right? The plus really means that it can be anything because we're not even putting the letters after that. We're not even specifying. So what do you mean by plus? I think that we have to be very careful using our language. What do we mean by plus? Are you really saying? that everything in the plus falls under this umbrella of someone's identity of who they are. So anyway, I think that's the premise that he's starting from. And that is why there are so many, I think, really big theological errors in what he says.

So he talks about parent connect because of this problem, which I think is a real issue and a real thing that churches do have to confront honestly. And biblically, though, is that there are going to be students wrestling with same-sex attraction. They're going to be students confused about their gender. And now more than ever, there are going to be students who do not see any problem with this. And I agree that ministry leaders absolutely have to be equipped to talk to these kids in love and kindness. And biblical truth, by the way. And they started a parent-connect and they wanted to equip parents to talk about these issues with their kids.

Christian parents talk about these issues with their kids. And he applauds his church for doing this. And maybe a lot of this is good. I haven't been to these ministries myself. I haven't been to these meetings. I'm not saying that everything that has ever been said there has been bad and unbiblical. And so I'm sure there is a benefit to it. He does say something that I agree with that parents, Christian parents of kids who come out to them as trans or gay or whatever, that they do need community.

They do need to see that there are other Christian parents who are going through the same thing. They do need to know that they can find community. and prayer and encouragement and steadfastness and faithfulness from their Christian friends. They shouldn't be isolated. Satan loves to keep us isolated. That's how he robs us of our hope and of our joy and even our determination to obey the Lord. So I agree with that, that there needs to be community for parents who are going through the same thing, which is their child coming out to them in a certain way. Now, he does say this. He says, you shouldn't be criticizing us, all these people out here, probably myself included, you should be learning from us. Maybe that's

true in some ways. I think that there are churches that should get better about being able to talk about this openly that should be a safe place, a biblically safe place for people to talk about these struggles that can absolutely feel very shameful. And he says this helps parents, not feel isolated and unequipped. Agree with that. He talks more about Lynn and Greg McDonald. Again, I'm sure that there are a lot of things Lening Greg McDonald, the people who started

embracing the journey. I'm sure that there's a lot of things that we agree on. He describes them as Christian conservatives or conservative Christians. I'm not saying that everything that they say or everything that they've done has been wrong or harmful or anything like that. But it does seem, based on what people have said about this conference, based on what people say about their ministry, that it leans affirming. And so you can tell me if you're out there and you

think that's absolutely wrong and they are 100% steadfast on the biblical definition of marriage and gender and they are very clear about sin and the importance of repentance from sin. You can tell me if I am wrong about that, about my assessment. He said the purpose of the conference wasn't to equip parents to debate with kids, but to connect with them and to keep their kids connected to Jesus. Of course, I am all for that. I absolutely believe in trying to as much as you can maintain relationships with your kids who are wayward in any way or who do or say anything that you disagree with as insofar as you are obeying the Lord in so far as you are obeying the Lord insofar as you are not compromising on the truth because when you see some of the stories that were

platformed people who are affirming who are in relationships that are gay parents who have embraced same-sex relationship, not just tolerated, but like embraced and celebrated the same-sex relationships of their kids. These are the stories that were platformed at this, at this conference reportedly. That's actually, these are stories of sadness and hopelessness for a lot of Christians. Like, understand that. Like, these are, these are not happy stories for a lot of Christians who are being told basically as parents that, look, either you affirm and accept and you celebrate the choices, the lifestyle that your child is made. or you are going to ruin your relationship with them, and that's absolutely the last thing that

you want to do. No, the last thing that we want to do is disobey God. The last thing that we want to do is displeased God. Now, the ideal, of course, is to maintain forever a loving and a close relationship with your kids and obey the Lord. That's every parent's help. That's every Christian parent's hope. But if one has to give, which I pray and ever does, worse nightmare. worse than I'm air for parents. Do you have to choose between these things? If one has to give, either it's obey the Lord or get my child to like me and to be okay with my perspective.

And you've got to go with obeying the Lord. That's the call for the Christian. That's part of the dying to self. I think one of the most difficult things that Jesus says that if you're not willing to hate your father or mother, your brother or sister, if you're not, willing to hate these people, then you are not worthy of following me. Now, of course, again, the hope is that it never comes to that. I do believe in trying to maintain those relationships as much as possible, but if something has to give, if you're going to go with one or the other,

it has to be obeying the Lord who is kinder and better and wiser than we are. The message seems to be from Andy Stanley that homosexuality, sexual gender issues are something that cannot be fully repented of, that you cannot be fully sanctified from these things. It just seems to me, and I'll talk about this more in a second, that Andy Stanley thinks that these sexual and gender issues are unique, that they are, and they are unique in a sense, and that sexual sin is a sin against your, is a sin against yourself. That's biblical.

But that they can't be fully repented of, which is why I think he platforms people like Justin Lee and his, his partner, and why they've spoken at their church several times. And this is what Andy Stanley has to say about that. This is why Justin and Brian were invited, the two married gay men at the center of all the Congress, and I'm sure that you've read all about that.

And here's the thing about Brian and Justin. Their stories and their journeys of growing up in church and maintaining their faith in Christ and their commitment to follow Christ all through their high school and college and singles and all up to the time that they were married, their story is so powerful for parents of gay, especially kids, that it's the story gay parents with gay kids need to hear. Again, that's not encouraging for Christian parents who desperately want their children to hold to a sexual ethic because they know that God's way is better.

So what he's saying is that two men who are in a romantic relationship, one of whom leads an organization aimed at encouraging Christians to be LGBTQ affirming. These are the examples to set before the church to encourage Christian parents. That's what Andy Stanley is saying. As far as we can tell from the state of their relationship currently, these two men are unrepentant. So that means that they reject God's authority when it comes to sex, marriage, gender, their relationships, completely reject it and say, no, thank you, Jesus. I think that I know best. I'm going to go my own way, do my own thing. As all of us sinners, by the way, have done at one point, as all of us did before Christ. But this, Andy Stanley says, is supposed to be equipping and encouraging to Christian parents.

This is the best outcome that Christian parents can hope for that their children profess to love a God whose parameters and boundaries and definitions that they reject and rebel against? Again, not encouraging for Christians who believe that God is wiser and better and more compassionate and that his ways actually have a purpose. And therefore, the longing of their hearts is for their children to know and to follow that God with their whole lives, as difficult as it may be. He says that they can offer a perspective for straight parents on what their gay kids in church are thinking. I have no doubt about that. But you know what? so can other Christian men and women who decided not to reject God in his word, but instead to abide by it. And I just think about what about some of the incredible guests that I've had on this show?

I've had the privilege of talking to. I think of Laura Perry. She was a maternity leave episode. So this came out just a couple weeks ago. She wandered, as you heard probably in her testimony, so far from the Lord and her parents while she transitioned, quote unquote, try to be a man, and then because of God's kindness, and because of her parents' relentlessness in praying for her, and speaking truth to her, she was brought back to a place of repentance and restoration. Go listen to that testimony, if you haven't already. Her parents never wavered.

They never compromised. And because of that, because they continued to tell her God's word and to tell her the gospel and to tell her God's truth while also being kind to her and loving her and all of their church friends did, she was brought back to a place of repentance. I think of Christopher Yuan, whom we've had on this podcast a couple times. He's a former drug dealer. He was reveling at the time in the promiscuous gay lifestyle. He was saved in prison thanks to the Holy Spirit and the prayers of his newly converted Christian parents. He is not married to a woman now, but has, by God's grace, chosen to live a life of sexual purity that honors the Lord. The same is true of Beckett Cook. Or what about Rosaria

Butterfield, and I'll get to her response to all this in a second. She's the former queer theory professor, former lesbian, who tried every way she could, you know, 20 plus years ago to unite her homosexuality with her Christianity. But the Holy Spirit, because this is what he does, he wouldn't let her do it. Because when Christ takes over, he takes over everything. Over time, he kills sin he kills sin and he kills sin and he sanctifies and he molds and he changes he's a king taking dominion over your heart and your mind and your soul and yes your sexuality and this is just as true in all of us as it is true with people who wrestle with same-sex attraction or gender confusion we are all being rid of our sin we are all being called to die to self we are all called to repentance

we are all called sexual purity. That doesn't mean that we will never sin again. That doesn't mean that we will never have sinful feelings, that we will never have sinful attractions. That doesn't mean that we will never be tempted. Of course, that is true from now until glory. But Jesus is sanctifying us and helping us to resist sin. That is the calling of every single Christian.

So he responded to a question, Andy Stanley did, about why he chose not to include someone like Rosaria Butterfield at this conference. Why was it only from one perspective? Like, why didn't you talk to Christopher Yuan or Beckett Cook or these people? Why weren't they invited? Obviously, they've experienced this. And he has a very interesting response that I'll get to. So in a public Q&A session, he was asked to this.

He was asked about, I guess, Beckett Cook, Christopher Yuan, Rosaria Butterfield. Stan, this is according to churchleaders.com. Stanley criticized the three authors claiming that they're advice. vice isn't quote pastoral, adding that they only spoke about the issue from a 30,000 foot view. Stanley explained that he decided to reference those three because of the criticism he received for not inviting any of them to speak at the conference. Why were they invited? He said, because in my opinion, they have nothing helpful to say to parents. Now, if you have heard Christopher Yuan's story, you will know that his story,

is wrapped up in his mom's story, that their testimonies are intertwined. I mean, he wrote a book with his mom about this. And I think his mom would be an excellent person to share her wisdom. I mean, how she prayed for him and just wanted him so badly to repent of his sin and to know Christ and to hear the gospel and to understand it. I think that she would offer a lot of wisdom. Beckett Cook also talks a lot about his parents. Now Rosaria Butterfield, she came out. later in life, so maybe that's a little bit different, but they certainly have a lot of wisdom to share. It's really hard not to think that the only reason they weren't invited is because they don't affirm it. I mean, you see that. Andy Stanley, right? Like, you see why people would think that? That you only didn't

invite them, not because they don't have something to say. Of course they have something to say. Of course they have something to say. They're Christians who have struggled with same-sex attraction, who all lived actively gay lifestyles. Of course they have something to say. Don't you see how people would maybe see their exclusion and think, wow, you just didn't want to include them because they're not gay affirming. You didn't want to include them because they talk about repentance. Rosaria Butterfield had something to say to that. She said this in a podcast with Josh Dawes, the Great Awakening podcast. She said this. You just kind of wonder whether any of these people ever took a logic class, she added, saying that the teaching presented at the Unconditional

Conference was based on emotional manipulative analogies. You need to be shepherded by a shepherd who is actually doing battle against the forces of darkness, not inviting the forces of darkness into your church for tea. No one says it like Rosario Potterfield. She's so good. I'm here to tell you that there's only one person who doesn't want people to repent of their sin, and that's Satan. Well, I would say there's a lot of people. And I'm sure she would. agree with this. There's a lot of people who don't want you to repent of your sin, but it's all motivated by Satan. Absolutely. Butterfield went on to rebut the idea that the unconditional conference offered anything that could be commended, saying you can't wrench some kind of a good

application from a Satan-drenched theology. Like she is so, she's so sharp. Go back and listen to my conversation with her, where she refutes some of the things said by people who use pronunciable. pronoun politeness who are, who say that it's respectful to use the preferred pronouns of someone, even though you know that they are not biologically accurate. She's just, she's so good. And even her original response to Jen Hatmaker, when Gin Hatmaker came out as gay affirming back in 2014 or 15, and her response to Rosario Butterfield's response in the gospel coalition, she's so good.

She's so good at just so clearly explaining the gospel. And then there was a pastor and author Sam Albury is same sex attracted but adheres to a traditional sexual ethic. Here's in part what he said for Christianity today, which I was proud of Christianity today for publishing this because it's not normal. The problem at the unconditional conference is not just that inappropriate speakers were platformer that Stanley gave at best mixed messaging about sexual sin. North Point as a whole is implicated. So he just goes on to talk about how it was completely unbelled. biblical conference that affirmed sin rather than calling people to repentance, which is the most loving thing that you can possibly do. Okay, here is another snippet of what Andy Stanley said,

and I'll respond to it. Many are convinced that traditional marriage is not an option for them. So they commit to living chaste life, an old-fashioned word. And for many men and men, women who put their faith in Christ, they just decide, okay, I'm just going to buckle down, I'm just going to bear down, I'm just going to be by myself, I'm not going to have family, I'm going to be sexually pure. And many, many, many, many do that for long seasons of time. And for some, for some, it's, it's their whole life. But for many, that is not sustainable. And so they choose a same-sex marriage. Not because they're convinced it's biblical. They read the Bible we do. They chose to marry for the same reason many of us did. Love, companionship, and family.

Okay. It's just not sustainable. And so they choose to get married. I think he's right that they choose to get married or what they would call marriage. Again, I say that because only God can define marriage and God defines marriage only one way, and that is between one man and one woman. So, I know it's kind of the colloquial turn that we use and legally it is deemed a marriage, but it is not by the real definition of marriage. So it's a union, they have a wedding, they celebrate it, but it is not by God's definition. The God who created marriage, actually a marriage.

And so he says that they choose quote unquote marriage for companionship and love, and I absolutely believe that's true. I do not think it's true that they don't think it's biblical. I absolutely think that people who say, I'm a Christian and I'm going to embrace the gay lifestyle that they do try very hard to reconcile those two things and that there are many many speakers many of whom speak at the unconditional conference that are willing to tell them yes these two things can go together they can be reconciled i take such issue with what he says here that it is not sustainable repentance from sin is not sustainable what's the point of any of this like this is

the one sin that jesus is not powerful enough to sanctify you of that he is going this is the one sin that if you struggle with this sin Jesus is going to let go of your hand he's not going to protect you he's not going to help you that the holy spirit is really powerful but not powerful enough to help you from acting upon your feelings of same-sex attraction that god is not strong enough for that that god's omnipotence is limited by a man being attracted to a man or a woman thinking that she is a man? What kind of God is that? What kind of Holy Spirit is that that is not strong enough to sustain you as you are tempted in your sexuality? How sad. That's not good news, Andy Stanley. That's not good

news. It's not good news. If there is a sin that the Holy Spirit cannot protect me from, cannot convict me of and cannot help me resist if there is a sin out there that is stronger than God, then what's the point of all of this? Like, is that the gospel? Is that the gospel that Jesus died for some of your sins, that you can die to yourself almost, that Jesus can almost help you resist sin, but not this one? It's not good news. It's really bad news.

but it goes back to his erroneous belief, his unbiblical belief that you are your feelings, that you are who you're attracted to, and you're not, that you're not. He says multiple times that if someone's same-sex attraction, that their same-sacraction is who they are. But this is a secular definition of same-sex attraction. Never does the Bible say that our desire, that our feelings that who are attracted to is some immutable, irresistible identity, a central part of who we are that must be placed on a prominent spot in our life. That is not biblical, that is a secular, psychological idea,

that our desires, that our thoughts are feelings, that are wanting, that our attractions are who we are. That's how we get these terms like gender identity or sexual orientation. The world believes that. The world believes that what you feel and whom you want, want is who you are. And the Bible categorically rejects that idea, rejects the idea that same sex attraction is somehow more a part of your core identity than other kinds of sinful attractions or other kinds of thoughts and desires. Stanley, he says, and I'll actually play the clip of him saying this, but I want to say this first. He says that this is a category in and of itself, that this is the one thing, I guess, that Christ cannot help you resist.

Dr. Michael Brown, he tweeted about an interaction that he had with Andy Stanley, and he asked Andy Stanley, is all-same-sex behavior a sin? And Dr. Michael Brown said that he will not say that. He will not say that. But rather, he said that sometimes ministry preempts clarity. that sometimes ministry, according to Dr. Michael Brown, this is what Andy Stanley told him, preempts clarity. That's a problem.

That's a problem. If you really love people and you love God and you believe that God is good and you believe that God is loving, then that means that you believe his word is true. That means that we will trust him when he says that homosexuality is a sin. something that we have to resist, something that we have to be sanctified of. That means we are going to believe him when he gives us the definition of holy sexuality, when he gives us the definition of marriage, that his ways are better and higher than ours. What is ministry if it is not that?

The truth is that people who leave the church, people who leave the church because of sexual sin or sexual confusion or gender identity who say I just can't be a Christian. Maybe they say it's because of a bad experience. Maybe they say it's because the church isn't affirming. Maybe they say it's because my parents want me to repent of my sin and I don't want to or my mom through Bible verses at me and I didn't like that. And maybe that's part of their unattraction to the church. But they are running essentially, ultimately, fundamentally, away from what all sinners are running away from, from what we all ran away from at one point and that is John 146 that Jesus is the way the truth in the life and that no one can come to the father except through him and that following him actually means

dying to ourselves taking up our cross and following Christ that is what every single person no matter your attraction no matter your temptation no matter your sin struggle is essentially running from that is it it's not all of the what Andy Stanley would call clobber verses It is essentially the gospel. It is the call to repentance. That is what all of us are running from when we are running from Christ. Let me play you one last clip from Andy Stanley. All of us have felt shame about things we've done.

All of us have felt shame about things we haven't done. But I bet you've never carried shame about who you are. that's the difference. And when people say to me, well, Andy, it's just like I just stop them. I say, no. This is not like anything. This is an is. It is a category all and to itself.

I got a lot to say to that. The Bible has a lot to say that. So Andy Stanley says that that is, that that's a category in and of itself, that gender confusion or sexual attraction is a category in and of itself that no. no one can relate to it, that no one can compare one sin to this sin. This is the sin, the sin, that Christ cannot help you or a lot of people resist. It's not sustainable to remain in a place of chastity or repentance for many people, he says, many Christians, he says, if they struggle with this, this is its own category, but the Bible does not put this in its own category.

He doesn't. Let's look at 1st Corinthians. six, nine through 11. And I know maybe he would call this a clobber verse, but it is God's word. It's God's word and God is love, first John 4-8. So what he says is always going to be more loving than what we think. So, 1 Corinthians, 6, 9, or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God, do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revereves, nor swindlers who inherit the kingdom of God. Listen, here's the good news. Here's the good news, Andy Stanley. Do not miss this. And such were some of you. Such were some of you. But you were washed,

you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our God. I just want to give hope to anyone who was struggling with any sin, whether it's same-sex attraction or whether you were confused about your gender, whatever it is, whatever sin you struggle with, that this is possible for you, that Christ can save you, that He can save you from your sin, that he can bring you to a place of repentance, that you can walk impurity by the power of the Holy Spirit, and such were some of you, but you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. That is possible. And you know why I know it's possible, not just because of this first, but I look at Ephesians too.

Ephesians 2 says that you were dead in sin apart from Christ. You were led by the prince, the power of the air, the spirit that is alive and working in the sons of disobedience. You were dead. But by grace, you have been saved through faith and were made alive in Christ. So you're telling me that this gospel, that this Holy Spirit can make a man who is spiritually dead alive by grace through faith. but it can't help someone resist same-sex attraction. Like, it can raise dead people to life. It can save sinners from hell,

but it cannot sustain a person in a place of repentance for the rest of their lives. I don't know about that. How to know about that? That doesn't sound like good news to me. It doesn't sound like the gospel to me. Now, he talks about a few more things. He talks about a family,

whose son came out to them, sent Andy Stanley an email that they are very thankful for the resources that North Point gave them. And she talks about this is kind of just an aside, but she talks about how she was a NICU nurse and how she saw babies who had ambiguous genitalia and that that has made her feel a lot more understanding for people who struggle with gender confusion. And the fact, this is actually important because the fact that Andy Stanley brought this up shows, it shows that this woman who wrote this email. and Andy Stanley himself, because he read this to his congregation, do not understand. You don't understand what transgenderism is. Has nothing to do with people who are born with ambiguous genitalia, who, by the way, are still male or female. They're still male or female. They're not both.

Their insides, it's not, their DNA is not confused. These are disorders that have nothing to do with gender identity, have nothing to do with transgenderism that is not what the movement is about. That's not what the debate is about. That's not where the threat comes from. It's not where the danger is. That's not where the confusion lies at all. That is a complete red herring that has nothing to do with transgenderism.

It's not part of the LGBT and the LGBTQ plus. Okay? That is completely different than what people are talking about when they are afraid of grown men going into women's bathrooms, which absolutely happens, of being housed in women's prisons and domestic abuse shelters and boys playing against girls in sports and children, minors, young women getting their healthy breast cut off because they think they're the opposite sex. Okay? it's not about babies with ambiguous genitalia.

So to me, that just shows a lot of confusion on the entire issue. And I do think that that matters. There's a lot more that I could talk about when it comes to this. There's a lot more that I could talk about when it comes to this sermon. He does say, just to give him credit, that they do teach that you should live a life of sexual purity that you should not be having sex before marriage or you should not sexualize relationships outside of marriage. Maybe he could talk to some of the people that attend his church who are LGBTQ who affirm that and who are living that lifestyle if they also agree with that because I

haven't seen that. I have not seen someone who was like, yeah, I believe that God thinks that gay marriage is holy and I am also saving all sexuality for marriage. I haven't seen that. They typically go together if you're going to reject something. So, major in the Bible as the definition of marriage, you tend to reject the sexual ethic altogether. But he does, I am glad that he teaches that. I'm glad that he teaches that. I'm glad that his church teach that. He does say that marriage is between a man and a woman. That's great. That deserves, I think, the entire sermon. I think clarity is so important. He says that ministry preempts clarity. I think that clarity is necessary for proper ministry. I mean, in a world of chaos and

confusion, people are desperate for clarity. We are desperate to know what God's word actually says about these very confusing issues, and God is better than us. He's more loving than us. Because Andy Stanley is an amazing communicator, I think that he would probably appreciate the alliteration that we've been using on relatable for probably five years, plus years now. God's definition of marriage, you could probably say it. I feel like a teacher, that everyone out there driving, walking, washing your dishes, that you can repeat what I'm, or that you can tell me what I'm about to say, God's definition of marriage is what rooted in creation as we see. And Genesis 1, it is reiterated throughout scripture as we see in, for example, honor your father and mother. It is

representative of Christ in the church as we read so beautifully in Ephesians 5, and therefore it is reflective of the gospel. The Bible starts with the marriage and ends with a marriage, the marriage between Adam and Eve and the marriage between Christ and his church. That matters. It's not just a verse in Leviticus. It's not just a verse in Romans 1. It's not just a verse in 1st Corinthians 6. All of those verses absolutely do matter. They tell us what not to do. But actually, God paints a beautiful picture of what we are to do. A union between a man and a man cannot reflect Christ in the church. Therefore, it's not a marriage. It's not a marriage between the bridegroom and the bride. Those gender designations are purposeful. They actually have meaning. They have eternal and spiritual value. That is. is what we should be teaching people. Because that's what God created. And again, God is love. We are not, we cannot out love God, Ante Stanley.

You can't out compassion God. You can't out-goodness Him. You can't out-emphathy Him. The God who is love also created us male and female. The only loving thing that we can do is to affirm that over and over again and platforming people that say, yes, you can be a Christian

and actively rebel against God and his design that is not loving. That is not Christ-like ministry. I think that you probably get it right in a lot of different areas, but this is a big one. I think, I think in a lot of ways you have gotten wrong. That's what I have to say about that. Okay, that's all we've got for today. Tomorrow we'll finally talk about Israel, Palestine.

We'll have a gas to kind of break things down for us. But I do just want to encourage you guys to go out and see The Blind. This is the real story of Phil and Kay Robertson, how they came to Christ. And you've heard him tell his testimony on my show. You've probably heard him on his show. The Unashamed podcast. They're amazing people. I love how Phil Robertson shares the gospel.

It is so clear. It's so simple, so compelling. And their story is really amazing. Their testimony is incredible. Go out, support this movie. It's a great way to just send a message that we want these kinds of God glorifying projects, movies. So go to blazedtv.com slash The Blind. You can buy it today for 1999.

That's blazedtv.com slash The Blind. All right. Thanks, guys. much for listening to watching. We'll see you back here tomorrow. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives

and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity. over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.