Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 936 | 'We Recommend Termination': Defying Doctors & Choosing Life | Guests: Daniel & Kelly Crawford

Episode Date: January 18, 2024

Today we're joined by Daniel and Kelly Crawford of Abel Speaks, an organization that supports families who have chosen to carry a child with a life-limiting diagnosis. They share their own story of finding out their baby son Abel had trisomy 18 and how doctors were quick to suggest abortion, deeming their son incompatible with life. We discuss how they processed the news and how important community grounded in compassion and truth was for them during this time. Kelly explains the birth experience and how much time they were given with baby Abel beyond what they were told to expect. We also discuss their motivation to help other families in similar situations and what the gaps in support are for families of children with life-limiting diagnoses. --- Timecodes: (01:16) Abel's story (06:08) What is Trisomy 18? (16:30) Finding support (26:40) Finding a provider they trusted (29:08) Abel's birth and last days (44:40) 'Abel Speaks' (01:06:05) Allie's VBAC --- Today's Sponsors: Range Leather — highest quality leather, age-old techniques and all backed up with a “forever guarantee." Go to rangeleather.com and use coupon code "ALLIE" to receive 15% off your first order. Patriot Mobile — go to PatriotMobile.com/ALLIE or call 972-PATRIOT and use promo code 'FRIDAY76' to get a free smart phone with activation! Netsuite — gain visibility and control of your financials, planning, budgeting, and inventory so you can manage risk, get reliable forecasts, and improve margins. Go to NetSuite.com/ALLIE to get your one-of-a-kind flexible financing program. --- Links: Abel Speaks: https://abelspeaks.org/ --- Relevant Episodes: Ep 921 | To the Texas Mom Suing to Abort Her Baby https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-921-to-the-texas-mom-suing-to-abort-her-baby/id1359249098?i=1000638357091 --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Babies in the womb who are given life-limiting diagnoses like trisomy 18 are often aborted with doctors and activists insisting that this is the easiest and most compassionate choice. But the truly loving and healing and redemptive option is to allow these babies. to be born, whole, and to live. But parents in the situation, they need support.

They need information. They need community. They need help. And that is why Abel Speaks exist. This is a Christian nonprofit organization that helps families who are pregnant with a child that has been given a life limiting diagnosis. You are going to be so encouraged and touched by the testimony of the founders of able speaks, the Crawfords, who are here today to talk about their baby boy, ABLE, and to talk about

this organization and everything that it offers for families. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use code Allie at checkout. That's good ranchers.com. Code Allie. Okay, guys, thanks so much for joining Relatable. Could you tell us a little bit about who y'all are and what she do? Yeah. Sure. We're Daniel and Kelly Crawford. We are the founders of an organization called Abel Speaks that exist to support families who have chosen to carry a child with a life-limiting diagnosis, just with the hope and the vision that each family in that scenario, every parent can choose to cherish that child's life and experience hope and joy, even in the midst of sorrow and potential grief and loss. And so that mission and that organization stems from our kind of on ramp into parenthood, our journey with our firstborn that we can certainly share more about. But that's certainly what led us to get connected with you and be here today.

Yes. So Abel speaks. Tell me about the name of the organization and why it's called that. Sure. Yeah. So it comes from Hebrews 11. 4. Abel is our first son, like Daniel mentioned, and had a life-limiting diagnosis.

And so we didn't even know that was necessarily in the scriptures until we picked his name. And then actually at his celebration of life, the pastor read that verse. And it just really obviously stuck out to us that even though his life looked different than we had hoped or imagined, that the Lord was like using it in profound ways in our journey, but also. the ripple effects of his life with the people around us and the people that we shared his story with. Yeah. Like had read Hebrews obviously and even like had the memory of like, oh yeah, Hebrews 11. That's where they list like a lot of the examples of faith from the Old Testament, but had not read through Hebrews 11 at the time where we were like thinking through names.

We were like, always like for people that are like, oh, we chose this name, which means this. When you break it down. And we're always just like, here's just the. names on our list, we liked them. So we didn't overthink it. But in the long run, yes, as we were getting to a point in our journey where we had thought about formalizing the kind of support that we now provide, that popped out as an opportunity and something that really embodied the essence of what we hope to do. And let's go back to finding out that you were pregnant with Abel.

What year is this? It was the summer of 2015. Okay, summer of 2015. and normal pregnancy, I assume, and then at what point did you get Abel's diagnosis? Yeah, so we are people of little patients, and so we wanted to find out gender as soon as possible. Especially with your first. It's just fun to know. It is.

It's fun. And so we decided to do the blood work at 10 weeks to find out gender. And we're like vaguely aware that they were testing for other abnormalities, but it really was like not. on our radar. Right. And you don't even know. They're like, oh, we're testing for genetic stuff. Yeah, yeah.

I was like, yeah, okay, okay. And then we waited two weeks to get the results back. And so our OB called. I was at lunch with some friends, actually, and she just said, hey, we got the results back. And you're having a little boy. And he also has risk markers for something called trisomy 18. And I said, okay, well, what does that mean?

and she said, if the diagnosis holds true, then he's considered incompatible with life. And I was like, okay. And I was asking all these questions, like, how accurate is the test? And which she wasn't really familiar with, how the test worked and how accurate it was. And then just didn't know a lot about the diagnosis. And so she just said you'll have to go to a maternal fetal medicine specialist to get more information. And so we did that about a week later and saw a specialist who said, hey, based on what I see on ultrasound, I'm 99% sure your son has tracet from 18. And so you guys can just terminate the pregnancy and try again for a better one.

Wow. And you said, how far along did you say that you were at this? I was about 12 weeks. About 12 weeks. Wow. And so you saw your baby on the ultrasound. She said, yep, those indicators look correct. And what did she tell you?

about trisomy 18 you know really not much and it was just like this is what the diagnosis is based on what we see and um he's not going to survive and so um there's really no reason to like continue the pregnancy and what and what is it what is tricomy 18 what is it affect yeah yeah it's it's you have a third copy of the 18th chromosome so 26 from mom 26 from dad sometimes a third copy you'll go in trisomy 21, we know is Down syndrome, which is, you know, associated with a disability that can be life limiting, but oftentimes is not, whereas trisomy 18 and trisomy 13 typically are, they're life limiting in the sense that you're probably not looking at a normal lifespan.

The insinuation at the time was it's basically impossible. These babies don't survive outside of the womb, and oftentimes they don't make it full term. And so there's just not even a blip of hope as it's presented. And so we've obviously, and there's plenty more we could share about this, is that there is certainly a range of time outside of the womb that parents can still experience with their children who have diagnoses like trisomy 18 or trisomy 13. But yeah, at that time in that room, it was, you know,

sucks the air out of the room. Of course. you're in a place where it's really the only thing that's presented is, here's what this is, here's what that means, and here's what you do next. Right. And so naturally. She didn't ask, she didn't say, what do you want to do or how do you feel about this, but we recommend, which is a euphemism terminating your pregnancy.

And this was in Texas. And at this point, this was before the fall of Roe. So this was legal to do. Yeah. What was your reaction when you heard that? I mean, I can't imagine. the whiplash. Yeah.

You know, he actually just said, I'm going to step out of the room. And the nurse actually came in. She was an older lady? And sometimes I'm like, was she even real? Or was she like an angel? But she just said, you don't have to make that decision today. And I was like, wow, okay. Which I was shocked that someone working for that provider with the direction that he was

giving us, you know, would be so open about that. But, you know, we just, so we talked with her mostly, the nurse, and just said, hey, that's not something that we're open to considering. And, you know, she just said, yeah, I think, I think that's wise just to wait. And so the appointment was pretty abrupt after that. And we, you know, quickly went home, tried to, like, learn more about the diagnosis and really what we could expect. And I think at that point we were trying just to get our minds around the fact that he really did have a diagnosis that was going to shorten his life. You know, I think it takes like time to process that information. Right.

And Daniel, I think I might have cut you off earlier. But what were you thinking through all of this? I mean, obviously it's emotional. I imagine maybe there was even like a period of denial. I mean, I think that's how I would feel like maybe they're wrong or maybe this is the child who does defy the odds. What were you thinking? Yeah, I think a few things in that moment. And even a quick caveat before I answer that is like it is the prevailing and predominant worldview of most medical providers to give that counsel and that advice.

And I think that it can be taken and run with to the extent of like, like, oh, they're all like these, you know, evil, rabidly pro abortion, which I'm sure some are. Oftentimes, though, they're just like, hey, here's what's best for everybody. Like, I think genuinely in this specialist was actually a male, but in his heart of hearts, it's like, I bet you just think you're actually like helping us and sparing us from a hard experience and, hey, what's the point if this is the inevitable outcome? And so I think you think you're doing us a favor, which I just like to point out. And that goes down to like education and equipping and which is why before we felt the need to create a nonprofit supporting families with journeys like ours.

There was a burden and a component of, you know, I feel like we need to share our story and our perspective, which Kelly in particular has done like at grand rounds at hospitals and stuff just to like create a category and a shelf in the minds of providers of like, oh, here's a parent that got the news moved forward, had the time. cherish that journey and here's how she's doing after the fact here's the sentiment she can still share which we haven't gotten to that point and sharing here yet but um i think most people just can't fathom that or it seems impossible and so um you know that was one thing in that room another thing was just being thankful in hindsight that we had been at a church um a church that did their best you know to balance the grace and the truth but not be a full of to lean into difficult, controversial topics, such as the life conversation, abortion, and try to equip its members around that conversation.

And so we went into that season kind of having formulated some of our theology and some of our views, which is just I can't say enough, not waiting until you're in the moment to like filter through. What do I think and believe? Heart versus head. And so that was helpful in hindsight. And I think a part of the Lord's provision, which was abundant at every phase of the journey, was going into it. We had some kind of, you know, we knew that wasn't something that we were going to consider.

And yet I understand how a parent, not only because of what I said earlier of it's really not like, do you want to do this or do you want to do that? Here's the pros and cons. It's just like, here's what you do. And to where most people that don't have that equipping or, you're. don't have that. And their world just got flipped up so down, okay, like you're the doctor. Okay. Yeah.

So with all of that said, yeah, I think that as we think about grief, oftentimes we think about that moment of finality and there's now a resolution there is, whether it's death or whatever is we're talking about. This is, that's when the grief starts. I think in these contexts, it's really in receiving and letting the diagnosis sink in. We didn't know how the Lord was going to write Abel's story. We didn't know the rest of that pregnancy or what time outside of the moon would look like. But we started grieving in that, not because we embrace like, oh, it's this inevitable thing.

And so let's just start preparing now to say goodbye. There's some component of that that's really tender and hard to put word. on but there's there was a sense of the first thing i started thinking is like however it plays out it's this is going to look different than i thought when kelly shared with me for the first time hey we're pregnant we're going to be parents because it's like moms and dads there's a lot of differences you know for dads it's like i'm thinking about throwing baseballs with five-year-olds I'm not necessarily thinking about, you know, the pregnancy, that season of newborn where the maternal instincts versus the paternal stuff. Yeah.

So I think that's the stuff that I remember. It's like in a vacuum, I might cry like once a decade. Like it's a problem. I need to work on it and be more in touch and familiar with my emotions and feel things. But I remember that's when it just started catching up to me. And those were the first things that were inducing those emotions and those tears was the sense of like, I'm not going to get to do that, probably. And I don't know what this is going to look like, but it's probably not going to look like that. And that's pretty crushing.

I think the point that you made about why theology matters and why knowing what you believe matters, I think a lot of times we think of these issues, issues like abortion as kind of secondary or tertiary devices. of issues that we don't really want to think about because we don't think that they will ever affect us. Or we think of theological debates as things that Christians really shouldn't be focused on. And maybe to some extent that's true. But when it comes down to it, what you believe in those moments acutely matters. It really matters, especially when you have someone who is in a position of authority, who is in a position to care for you and tell you what's best for you to present this is really

the only way to go. And as you said, someone who doesn't have that foundation of knowing, wait, this baby no matter what, is made in the image of God, is thinking, wow, it's really that easy. I can just be done with this next week and then start over and have a great pregnancy. I'll never think about it again. Of course, that's not reality. But in those highly emotional moments, you could see why that option is appealing to some people. So tell me, after you left the room, you knew that that wasn't going to be the path that you took. But what did it look like after that? How did you find the support that you needed?

Yeah, you know, like Daniel said, I think the theology piece, but also surrounding like what an abortion actually is, I think our church really equipped us on that. And so I think as we, it wasn't an option for both of those reasons, right? So I think it's important to know like what God's word says and then to also have an understanding of what an abortion is. But yeah, after we left the hospital, Daniel was on staff at the church that we went to at the time. And so it was really the first time in my life that I experienced like God's people really like being the church for me, personally. And so a lot of that just looked like people that we had known for a long time

or people that we barely knew at all, caring for us, loving us. Some of that was just like, hey, I dropped coffee off on your front porch. And it's like, good, I'm getting out of bed for that. You know? And just knowing that so many people were like praying for us, I think it was really the first time I experienced in such a personal, tangible way. the power of like prayer and how that was like impacting my heart and mind on a daily basis. And so a lot of the services that we provide through able speaks are because those were things that people did for us and they were things that we like didn't even know we needed, you know. And I think my favorite thing about the way that people cared for us during that season was that

people really just got to use the gifts that God's given them to bless us, you know? And so to see, which a lot of people ask us, like, how do we, like, support families that are in this situation? And I'm like, hey, what are the gifts and skills that God's given you? Just use those, you know? And other people that are caring for them get to do the same. and altogether that, you know, forms really solid care and support. And so, and now that of it was like super profound, you know, some of it was just like texting us. Some of it was just giving us connections for providers if we needed them or giving us, like I said, coffee on our front porch or just like small things that made us feel less alone, you know.

Yeah, we at one point invited folks obviously to pray for us and for ABLE throughout that journey, which really was just the walking into and through the unknown because, again, we're like late first trimester at that point. It's like, that's a long time. If this goes full term, we're talking like several months of sitting in this, we don't know what lies ahead moment, which is incredibly vulnerable. And we in this day and age have such a high ability to control so many different facets of our life, where to have one glaring thing that is like you really, you can prepare yourself mentally, spiritually, emotionally, you can have good community, you can have all these things. But there's a finite point where it's like you can't really do much more other than weight.

And we don't like that, right? Yeah. And so in that stretch, you know, I think that. as we talk about suffering, which at this point in age, you know, as Kelly said, it was probably the first really profound stretch of hardship of a circumstance that had entered our lives. And nobody like opts for that and pursues that and seeks that. And yet we got to see not only through God's people,

through God's word, as we talked about, through His spirit. but just the way that he draws near to the brokenhearted. And just the things that maybe stories that you're familiar with, you know, if you've been around church or the scriptures that just took on color and like new light and like the notion of like collecting manna one day at a time. Yeah. And it's like that's all we can do is take it day by day

and trust that he's going to provide tomorrow. And we don't get a week's worth, we don't get a month's worth. We don't know what is coming down the stretch. but there's this daily sense of abiding and trusting on our end and then providing and sustaining on his end. And so that whole stretch, you know, as we invited people to pray, we picked just a time.

Originally his due date was January 29th. We had him on January 22nd. So we're coming up on his eighth birthday like next week. Oh, goodness. This was 2015. And so that was another just really special, profound thing is folks set their alarm for his original due date. They just symbolized this, you know, here's what we're going for is that's, you know,

carry this baby full term and he's going to be born and we're going to get time with him, whatever that time looks like. And if the Lord wills, you know, shock us, do something miraculous, you know. You can do whatever you want to. And yet we also know that you love this child more than we even do. And you created him with purpose and intention. so prepare our hearts for whatever lies ahead, but also we feel freedom to ask you for what we want to ask you for.

Yeah. You know? And so there was all that. But when our alarms would go off every day at 129, it was this, we're thinking about at 24-7. So it wasn't like, oh, yeah, able. Let's pray real quick. It was a daily reminder for us that it got to the point where hundreds,

potentially thousands of alarms were going off every day at that time. And so for us, it was. like that was a reminder every day of like hey for the next minute two minutes five minutes i don't know but in this moment there are hundreds of prayers right now right and so many people would text us like at that time every day and like hey this is what i've been praying for you guys for specifically for today which was like such a gift i think too people um challenged us a lot in that season so even like daniel talking about like truly asking god for what we wanted you know um um um and friends ask, like, hey, do you feel freedom to ask for what you want? And are you actually doing it?

You know? Because in those moments, of course, what we wanted was for him to be healed. But I think even asking God for what you really want is vulnerable, you know? Because it's like we also know that that might not be our story. And so I think some of the greatest gifts that people gave us were really leaning in and saying, hey, this is what God's word. says, you know, do you feel freedom to do that or ask that? And I think that really blessed our journey in just like keeping us focused, you know, on like, hey, we can. And I think allowed us to look back on that time with like no regrets. Yeah. It was like the biggest gift they gave us. In a way that emphasized like just the authenticity and intimacy that can come from praying

whatever you got, whatever's on your heart. Not some of the stuff. stuff because people well intended can do the like, hey, if you pray hard enough or if you pray this way or if you have enough faith. If you believe that it's going to happen. Yeah, like the balls in your court. And then you'll basically like coax that blessing and that healing out of him, which is, there's so much to say about that of how painful. I mean, I can't imagine wholeheartedly embracing and believing that.

And then not having that prayer answered. and then the only thing to point to and look back on is I must have did something wrong because they said if I did it this way. So anyways, without going down that rabbit trail, it was a profound time of, you know, that literal like Psalm 23 idea of walking through the valley of the shadow of death and trusting the good shepherd and having other people, you know, whose voices and whose presence were there with you to shepherd and point you back and just take it a step at a time, a day at a time,

to where we'll say often, like, that period of intimacy and connection with the Lord was unprecedented up to that point. And then really even looking back, you know, our story and journey with Abel has now changed everything about our lives, including what we do vocationally. But even, like, replicating what those months felt like

when we were navigating the unknown is hard to do and hard to describe. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary, grounded, in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed. You can watch this D-Day Show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. How did you find a provider that you were comfortable with given the situation and what path you decided to take? Yeah.

So we called her OB and said we didn't love that experience with the specialist. Do you have another recommendation? and she said, yeah, hey, I think this person might be a little bit better fit for you guys. So we went to see him probably two weeks after that. And it was a totally different experience. And he played a huge role in our story. He was really the first person that said, hey, your son's alive today. And that matters.

And it's worth celebrating. And so for us, we really took that and we're like, hey, we are going to celebrate every day that we have with him, even if it's just in the womb, you know. And so he really, yeah, valued Abel's life and valued what our desires for what his life could look like and valued that we were his parents. And so we get to make those choices, you know. Helped humanize him too, like especially as a dad who wasn't actively pregnant. that there's that challenge of like connection and everything so for him to like hey let me see your hand like put it right there and like give it a little poke it's fine it's not going to hurt him and see on the screen like you interacting and it's like wow dang and so it really was this

powerful picture and dichotomy of like what sort of sway and influence and impact people in that role can have and we're so grateful because they're out there yeah the providers that take that approach to their care and to their patients, they're out there. And you can find them. We can help you find them. And it's a game changer. And that's one of the resources we provide through Able Speaks is just medical connections, just because we've seen the like spectrum. We've had not great providers. And then we've had some that have had a huge impact on our story and journey. And so, and that's what I get to say when we get to meet with medical professionals is just like you like have so much power to like impact someone's journey

and you get to choose if that's for good or not you know and so let us help you know some maybe better practices to support them in a way that they would really feel cared for and tell me about the days leading up to Abel's birth and then what it was like when he was born. Yeah. Yeah I think The days leading up feel like a blur kind of, you know. He was our first, so we didn't have any other kids running around. And so, again, like Daniel said, I think we just tried to take it a day at a time. And the week before, I think, which is funny, like Daniel said, we're like a week before his birthday now.

He'd be turning eight years old, which is crazy. But, you know, I think it's just like this weird emotion of like, I want to meet my son, but I also know that meeting him might also mean him passing. And so that's like a really, it's a really strange place to be. And so, but we really did, you know, a couple weeks before he was born, it was just like, man, we're ready. And whatever the Lord has for us, like, we're going to trust that that's going to be good. And we can't wait to meet him.

And so that's true of all of our children, you know, like the excitement and anticipation of getting to know them is just like one of the greatest gifts in life. And so that was true of him, too, even though it looked a lot different than we had hoped. We did not feel that way the whole pregnancy. You know, the waiting is like excruciating all the unknowns that you're, you know, facing. Feel just overwhelming. Did you know that you would have to have a scheduled C-section? No, so I advocated for that. Our provider didn't want to do a C-section.

She said it wasn't worth it because he wasn't going to survive. And so I just said, hey, like, that's what I think is going to be best for him and for our family. He had a heart condition that we were concerned he might not survive the labor. And so that was like one of my first experiences, as a mom of like, oh, okay, I've actually got to like stand up for what I, you know, what I think is best. Basically, she was saying because of the difficulty that a C-section would be for you, it's not worth doing something that would be better for him. Right. Because he's not going to survive any long term.

Right. That's right. And so we went back and forth on that for several months. And then she ended up agreeing to do it. And so, yeah, we scheduled a C-section for 39 weeks. and we weren't sure that we would even make it to that day, but we did. And so, yeah, you know, I think we went into his birth, just trying to hold it as loosely as we could. And what we often say is that it really felt like holy ground that day. You know, the Lord was so present and it was just

like palpable his presence in that operating room. And he was born and we didn't know if we'd get minutes with him outside of the womb or hours. That's what we were told. And so he was born and stabilized pretty quickly, which was like a surprise to everybody. And then they were like, maybe he doesn't have trisomy 18. And we were like, okay. So, you know, there's like all these things going on all at once. But did you get to hold him immediately? Yeah, we immediately did skin to skin. And, um, And then, yeah, we went back to just like the post-stop room. And Daniel and I had decided to spend like the first few hours with him just as a family of three,

which was like such a gift. But he was doing like remarkably well. And so our like friends and family were in the waiting room and got to come back, which also was something we weren't sure that he would get to meet him alive. And so the fact that they did was such a gift to us, even now, because they get to say, remember when Abel did this or remember when he looked like that or he had a long toe like your brother or like all the things, you know, that we get to talk about when we have babies is a part of like his story too. And so, and it just humanized him, you know, where other people get to talk about him when he was actually alive. But yeah, his birthday was such a great day. It really was. I mean, and that's what we tell families that we get to walk with. Abel Speaks is like it's hard. to get your mind around it right now, and that is okay. But I promise, like, meeting our children is unlike any other life experience, and that's going to be true of your child, even if they

have a life-limiting diagnosis. And so, but yeah, that first day, you know, it was lots of family and friends coming in and getting to hold him and meet him. And it was just such an unexpected gift to get that time with him. We weren't expecting that. Right. Yeah, I would say also to a degree, and I hope I speak to it like tenderly, but even the families with the hundreds of families that we've walked with at this point, you know, a percentage of them, you know, will experience stillbirth and the sentiment still holds.

To a degree that candidly, I, because we prayed for that often, like, everybody's different and has these different things. I'm like, oh, man, that's really a longing on our heart. but we were very hopeful and wanted to do whatever we could to try and meet him alive and have time with him outside of the whim. And so not everybody approaches it the same way. But even for the families that don't get that time with their child outside of the womb, they say the same thing, which is, man, what a beautiful day. And it's that, you know, bittersweet mixture of emotions because there's obviously pain and grief that comes with loss. and death.

But then there's this sense of, man, we've been thinking about, talking about, praying about, anticipating, and like, there you are. And, like, we get an idea on ultrasound of like, oh, I think you might have your nose. But it's like, there's just nothing like it. And so we'll say that to folks, you know, often that we're serving because that's, of course, everybody's thinking through that. And there is for a good chunk most probably of the pregnancies. there's this sense of like, oh, that just feels daunting, you know.

And I'm like having to gear up and prepare for potentially saying goodbye. But then, as Kelly said earlier, when you get closer and closer, I think that does in a way that's just God's kindness on display. Like it gets not replaced totally, but you feel this sense of joy and anticipation in the positive sense. of like, okay, he's about to be here. And so nobody can take that away and you wouldn't trade it for anything.

And again, these are sentiments that over 400 families now that we've walked with, that is a prevailing universal sentiment, is that sense of we wouldn't trade that day and that experience for anything. And, you know, if we were God, we would have written it differently. And we can say that.

And we have permission to say that. And yet, even in that, we see his hand. We see his redemptive components. And we just see the gospel-infused reality of life in this present world, that joy and sorrow, they can go together and they can go exist. And oftentimes greater depths of one is paired with greater depths of the other. And that's what it is to love something, right? is the greater depths of love and joy that you experience in association with something,

the greater depths of pain that comes with losing that something. But that doesn't negate the joy. I remember reading a quote years ago now, and I don't remember who it's by, but something along the lines of anxiety is imagining the future without God's grace in it. And you really only feel God's grace in the present moment. moment. So when we picture whatever scary day it is that we're imagining whether we know what's going to happen, like the birth of a child, we won't survive long after birth or something that we think is going to happen, when anxiety takes over, it's because we forget that God's grace is going

to be there. And going back to what you said about taking the daily bread of each day, taking the manate of each day, we're not supposed to know tomorrow. We're not supposed to take tomorrow's bread. We're not supposed to understand how it's going to feel when God's grace meets us in that moment. We're supposed to trust that it will. And I've never heard, as you said, I haven't talked to as many parents as you guys have, but I've never heard of family regret that experience and regret being able to meet their child, whether the child had already passed in the womb or whether the child lived minutes, hours after birth.

God's grace has always met them there, and they've always been so grateful for that experience. And I think that's an important piece too, because this even, like, if you step outside of sharing the same faith convictions and worldview that we share, you know, there's secular, you know, Duke University did a study that basically tracked, like, hey, parents who get a life-limiting diagnosis, those who terminate versus those who continue, like, what are the longer term outcomes, like psychologically, emotionally, like who fares? Better, is there a different? difference and the study found that those that carry and continue fare better in the long run. And it's because of, you know, all of the things of like, hey, there's, of course, we're going

to find stats that back up God's universal truths. But I think that because there was this, hey, we resisted the temptation to take matters into our own hands to do what was right in our own eyes. and we saw this through that as you're talking about regrets, I do think there's far less regrets associated because it's like, hey, we let this play out. And we tried to be as informed as we could be, know our options, know the possibilities,

and not just walk through with the blindfold, but at the same time, I think that absolutely contributes to the long-term sense of peace and the absence of regrets as opposed to, we talk about this often, like choosing to set the date that Abel was going to pass and end the pregnancy and have the abortion, it really wouldn't have spared any of the sense of loss or suffering

or it would have shortened the season of unknowns and all of those things. But you essentially get all of the hard stuff and all of the sad stuff. And you've just forfeited all of, the joyful, redemptive stuff. Yeah. And that's not going to go well long term for anybody. And that's more than anything, rather than,

because we've walked with folks of all different religions, no religion, you know, single moms. Like, name the circumstance. That has been transcendent. And I think that's what it's rooted in, ultimately. Yeah.

And how long did Abel live? Yeah. So he lived for 50. 15 days outside of the womb. Were you able to take him home? Yeah, we were, which was like one of Daniel's like prayers was that we would get to take him home. And I was like, oh, man, I don't know if we can take home a child that is, you know, and it felt like so overwhelming to me.

But, yeah, you quickly like learn all the medical things and how to do, you know, what you need to do to take care of your child. So we got to take him home on day four. and got to spend the rest of his time at home, which was like such a gift. And just to get to be a family in our own home, you know, was something that we never could have imagined getting to do with him. And having people get to come see him and see us and things like that. And just go to our favorite park around the corner and watch a movie that we love or, you know, things that are just like,

mundane things of life that we were never, we couldn't even like get our minds around the possibility of getting to do those things with him. And so, yeah, we, we didn't, I think, again, like I said, we went into his birth just super open-handed and we're hoping just for hours. And so I feel like the Lord gave us more than we could have imagined or expected. And then, yeah, I think on the piece about, like, grace. You know, I think that that is something that God used Abel's life to totally change the way that we approach our day to day, you know, in the best of ways, I think, of just, and we really do, there's so much freedom in just going, you know what, like, we have the next 24 hours and we can trust that God's going to give us what we need today. And that's

really what Abel's 15 days looked like was just one day at a time, we're going to do what is before us and trust that God's going to give us the strength to do that. And then he's going to give it for the next day and the next day. And even on the day that Abel passed away, you know, it's odd, but it really was like such a peaceful day for us. I mean, it's the hardest day of our lives too. But, but yeah, you know, I think getting to see,

getting to know that Abel's like last breath on earth with us was like getting to meet our creator face to face. And that being your child is like unlike, and trying to get your mind around like, what is that like? What is he actually experiencing? I think it was the worst day for us in a lot of ways, but the best day for him.

But yeah, even on the day that he passed, you know, I think that, again, the Lord's presence was, like, just felt so, he was so near to us. And we just trusted like, hey, that, this is the time that God wrote for him, you know. And of course, like Daniel said, if we were God, he'd still be here. And those two things can hold true, you know, at the same time, which I think sometimes people have a hard time getting their minds around. Definitely. And then how long after his birth and his death did you realize that you were being led to create this organization for other families? Because a lot of families have been through similar experiences, but not every family says, okay, there needs to be something else for families who have gone through this. So tell me about that.

Yeah, you know, we didn't have any grand plans. So I would just say about four months after Abel passed away, We had a friend of a friend reach out and say, you know, we were pretty open with our story when we were pregnant and during his life. And so they just said, hey, I know someone that got a similar diagnosis. Would you be willing to share your story with them? And just like any insight that you have on how to walk through something like this. And so we said yes.

And then that phone call just kind of kept coming every like three or four months. Somebody would reach out and say, hey, would you like connect with this family? And so we just thought it would be like a family ministry for us, you know, just like, hey, this is how we will continue to steward Abel's life. Like, we don't get to parent him on earth in the way that we had hoped, but this is a way that we get to feel like we are still parenting him to some extent, you know? Without the burden of like, we've got to do something. Yeah. Like we've got to preserve his legacy. We've got, like there wasn't that sense of pressure. It was just, yeah, it's hard to even explain it. It was just a,

one step of faithfulness at a time. We want to be open to responding to opportunities that we feel like clearly the Lord's bringing to us to be faithful with. And then over time is you're just picking up patterns. You're like, I don't think we're forcing this thing in trying to make fetch happen here.

I think that it's just like, no, there's not only continuing opportunities in need, but also like pretty clear gaps that we at the time it's like we didn't know what we didn't know and we were learning as we were going so there's some things to like pay forward um but there's also stuff that was present that i think was easy to take for granted that we're like oh that's not that's not normal like in the positive

way of like yeah the support that we had i think in that season as we were walking with other families we began to realize like, oh, that wasn't, our experience is not typical. And so a lot of families, even as they're like trying to decide should they terminate, it's like, oh, the understanding from a theological standpoint and just from a general education of what an abortion is and all of those things, there was just like no foundation there really. And so all the way to like, you know, how do we navigate this with like friends and family that are trying to love and support us, but they don't know what to say they don't know how to say it they don't know what to do you know um maritally how do we like navigate you know going through intense suffering and grief together but also individually and so

there's just so many siblings you know people we didn't have other children but if the families had kids it's like how do we navigate grief with children you know or sometimes people would start with enough of a conviction like hey we're we're catholic like we don't do the abortion thing That's a hard no. But what does it look like to actually follow through? It's like you just kind of grate your teeth and you get through it. And there's like a lack of like, hey, here's like here's not just theology as far as headwise, but just like here's how you can navigate that season and just having that redemptive perspective

and a lot of the stuff we've talked about here for a while, there can be a real deficit. And so that's relationally, meritory. medically sometimes it's like we dread these appointments having such a hard time it's like you know you can find somebody else like just really practical things we're like wow okay we wouldn't have necessarily known to do this if this wasn't our story but to know that there is a different way a better way you do have choices you do have options and to be able to pass those things along and there was just a lot of gaps in care and support for such a niche population you know and even in our own story with able i mean we had some really difficult after he was born um where the medical

team just expected him to die and then when he didn't they didn't really know what to do and it was like and i mean ultimately it came down to like denying care you know are you sure that you want to feed him it's like well he's hungry and You know, and it's like, well, it's just futile. So, or if we, you know, wanted to learn more about how his heart was doing, it's like, that's just a futile thing to do. We don't recommend it. We won't have insurance cover that, you know, like all of those things that we were

totally unprepared for. Yeah. And so as we were walking with families, all of these things, we just saw patterns like Daniel said of like, oh, that's, I think there's a real need here. And so we decided to like formally establish ABLE Speaks in January of 2018 on what would have been ABLE's second birthday. And so we just thought it would be like 10 families a year in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. Didn't think much beyond that. We didn't have like a three-year plan or a 10-year plan or anything like that for the ministry.

I was doing it, you know, part-time. Daniel was helping me on nights and weekends. And so we were just kind of making it work early on. And then in like 18 months, the ministry just like exploded. And so we were kind of looking at each other like, okay, either we need to go all in as a family on this and trust that this is what God's calling us to, if that's what we think. Or we need to like find somebody else to like start running it because we just don't have the margin. And so Daniel left his job in the fall of. of 2019. And we both started working for the ministry full-time. And, and yeah, since then we've

served, like Daniel said, over 400 families, which is just crazy. And in every U.S. state, eight different countries. And, yeah, before, you know, Zoom was a thing. We were already using it, connecting with people, you know, across the world. Real trailblazers. Yeah, that's right. And so. Bring it on COVID. No problem. That's right. We were ready. But yeah, you know, it's, we've just tried to say yes to the next door that the Lord has opened and tried to be as faithful as possible to steward the story that he's given us. And it's been a huge gift to us just to get to, there's something very humbling and profound to get to walk with people through the darkest valleys, you know, and for them to like share that. with you is a huge gift and an honor. And so we really do view it that way. And just the way that the Lord uses the families that we get to walk with in our life. And I think it just keeps in the

forefront of our minds all the time, like what we do keeps, it reminds us just, you know, of how futile life or you know how life is just so um it is like a vapor fleeting it's fleeting and it's just so um short and that um it helps keep an eternal perspective you know um for us and which we see as like a gift yeah yeah and you talked about just not just gaps in care but also a lack of knowledge about these diagnoses and what the true operas and what the true option is. are some people don't even know that there is a redemptive option that you can birth your baby whole and see their face and and love them for their last moments or days of their life when we read stories like we see in the media they're presented as kind of you know

a way to wield the culture war when you hear a story like the woman Kate Cox who traveled from Texas. I think she also, her baby also had trisomy 18 and she wanted to have an abortion. She did have an abortion. And what you hear from the pro-choice side is that of course that's the most compassionate option. Of course that is the best option to take. And it just goes to show like there is a lot of work to be done. For some people, maybe it's not a lack of knowledge. As you said, maybe, you know, for some people, they're just notcially pro abortion and therefore no matter what. For some people, I mean, even those who consider themselves pro-life, they say, well, but in this case, in this case, yeah, I'm pro-life, but it's the exception to the rule, right? Yes. In this case, we have to allow it to happen. I saw that a lot. But you have seen now what it looks like for parents to choose the redemptive and life-giving option. And there's just a lot of work to be done. A lot of knowledge to be shared and wisdom to be shared. Of course, it requires heart change and all.

of that, but some people just don't have the information to know that it's even possible. I think too, not like, I think we just don't understand suffering, you know, and so we don't, as humans, like we want to run away from hard things always. And I think that's just like our human instinct is to move away from it. But I think like what we've learned is like if we sit in it and like trust that God is good. and has a good plan and purpose for our life, I think we get to see the redemptive aspects of the suffering that he's given us. And if nothing else, you know, Abel's life has helped me know my creator more.

And so if nothing else, like that is a humbling gift from my son, you know, that God has used his life to allow me to know God more. and so in like a really personal way. And so I think that we just, even as believers, we don't have a good worldview on suffering and like how God uses it. Like I don't think God wants us to suffer, but I also think that he knows our humanity, you know,

and that that's often the best way to draw us into knowing and trusting him more. Yeah, and he didn't exempt himself. I mean, he didn't exempt Christ from that. And so I do think that aversion to suffering or imposing what feels like imposing suffering on somebody else is a huge piece of what fuels that mostly well intended but misguided compassion that you were talking about is because it's people and oftentimes believers that are like, hey, well, here's what is really the kind response. Or here's the most Christlike, you know, here's the most compassionate way to stance to take or way to respond. and it does. It doesn't take long to, in your world class at this, of just like, okay, well, just consider, like, yes, I'm not saying turn off your heart, but I'm saying turn on your mind and just here's a few questions. And can you see the inconsistencies of how that's maybe not actually, it might feel like or seem like on the surface the most compassionate response?

But if A, B, and C are true, then that's actually, that doesn't, that doesn't line up. And so we've tried the best, you know, that we can. At the end of the day, we lead with our story. And like I said, up top, like, you know, I think one of the best apologetics we have as believers as a whole is just like, here's my story and what I've gleaned from it, your testimony. But I think as it applies to, you know, the pro-life movement or the abortion conversation, you know, I think sharing our story and our experience with Abel and,

or work with able speaks, hopefully can just like people like, wow, I've never considered that or thought about that. And the little I did think about it led me to this conclusion. Now that I think about that, it's like, oh. And so that's like where we hang our hat at the end of the day. But we also are like, man, I do think it's important to have those foundational, fundamental, hey, think about these things now so that when the story and the headline that comes out that pulls on your heartstrings, be like, does that line up, though? And how can I balance grace? How can I always have grace, but also balance that with truth, not at the cost of truth? And so we did try and we put together like a quick little kind of short resource called for foundational questions about abortion. And it's on our website and stuff. I think it's on our homepage right now where if you go to ablespeaks.org, it pops up as a free download. just because we do kind of especially recently in light of, you know, our what's normally a very small off the radar niche kind of got pushed to the forefront of some national news with the Cox case the other month in Texas.

That it kind of the responses we saw from people, even as we, you know, would post things. It's like, oh, man, love this. Like agreeing with us. but also I think it's really good that everybody has like the ability and the right to it's like well hold on yeah yeah I think the um the you know exception to the rule that our niche falls into for a lot of people even believers or people that are pro-life I think trying to equip people of like yeah but even in these circumstances you know this is what we can know to be true and um surrounding the abortion conversation but and also like Daniel said you

You know, we try to lead with, man, the things that we would have given up, how we terminated Abel's life, ended his life, you know, by our own accord is we wouldn't have known what he looked like. We wouldn't have been able to hear his cry. We wouldn't have been able to give him a bath, you know. Our friends and family would have never gotten to meet him. I wouldn't have been able to feed him. There's so many things that we got to do with him because he is a human, you know.

and he was alive, you know, and there's things that, memories and things that we got to experience with him, that those are the things that we would have given up had we chosen to end his life prematurely. Yeah. I totally agree that the testimony and the stories really are the counterpoint. Not to say that there isn't a place for, like, argument and debate, obviously. That's part of what I do. I think that's important. but the showing the alternative that there is redemption in the birth and that there is beauty, as you said, that joy and pain can actually co-mingle.

And really when you think about like we're so suffering averse, I mean, that has been true since the garden, whether it's suffering through like just impatience, having to wait for something, suffering through hardship, difficulty, rejection, whatever it is, Satan always says, but this thing that you can have right now is going to taste really good, and he always downplays the consequences to that. It never wants to show you what the joy of faithfulness can be. And so, yeah, it's just a different iteration of the same temptation that humans have always faced, which is to take the easy way out, which easy way. I'm not saying it's easy for parents who go through that, but the seemingly quicker way to avoid more suffering.

And then in the long run, it really does just compound the suffering. So Abel speaks. I just want people in case they're looking and they want to know for sure, you offer mentorship, medical connections. You guys have covered all of this, maternity and birth photography, which I think is really special. And then you also have a podcast where you are answering a lot of commonly asked questions, commemorative keepsakes. You help to create the items that people can, you know, save and be able to look at and remember their child and their birthday. You help with celebrations of life. You also have community retreats.

So it's connecting a lot of people, both professionals and just the, you know, regular people going through it to resources and to each other to make sure that everyone is as informed and as encouraged and supported as possible. right that's correct yeah yeah yeah and then all of those things a common tie is you know ultimately helping families cherish their child um but also just being rooted in relationships and knowing that with whatever tangible practical services and resources we can create and provide because there's just there's nothing like if you're on your own it's like you unless you're taking your own initiative and then it's like okay you're getting the best of what Google has to offer or Facebook groups that can be kind of hit or miss. And so trying to make it practical and helpful in that sense.

But what transcends all of that is just the connections with other parents that have walked through something similar. And so Kelly's been very, she's our visionary and our executive director. And that's been something that just from the beginning has been a hallmark and always will be is yes to the resources, yes to the helpful things, but not just as like a resource hub of here, print this off or here you go. It's like,

hey, not to dangle the carrot, just because genuinely we think the most impactful, transformative thing is going to be to connect you with other people. And so that informs all of what we do. And so that's us, those 400 families are 400 families that are getting,

you know, personally, relationally connected and being a part of a community and, you know, a cohort that nobody, like,

shoots, hand up to want to be in that club, but to know that you're not the first and you won't be the last and you're not alone is a game changer. Yeah. Well, we often say is that support changes stories. And so that's what we, and we see that through relationships primarily. And so something that we often hear is like pushback is like, hey, that's great that you chose that and you had a good experience.

But I know, you know, my friend chose to continue the pregnancy. and it was a horrible traumatic experience. And for me, what we often say is just like, man, that makes me so sad because all that says to me is that they didn't have proper support. Because we walked with 400 families that all did have proper support. And so they don't regret their decision to continue. And so as Daniel said, we really try to provide every opportunity we can to connect relationally with us, with our staff, as well as like with one another.

because we really have found that that community and that relationship is really what transforms their heart and mind to be able to have a different category and approach to something like this. And it's usually we might be the first people that say to them like, hey, there is a different way and there is a different option and let us show you what it looks like to walk through that. Totally. Totally. Well, thank you guys so much for what you do. And it's ablespeaks.org, abel speaks.org. If anyone just wants to learn more, if you have been through it, maybe you can serve as a resource and a form of support for someone else. Or if you're in this current situation, there are a lot of people who follow me who are in the situation right now, who maybe they saw me post about Able Speaks on Instagram and their lives have been changed for the better because of that.

So and this is a this is generational impact too because it has an effect not just on parents, but also their own parents, the grandparents that are involved, the brothers and sisters. And I mean, this is the kind of thing that carries on. So thank you so much. And just a little fun aside, Kelly is part of the reason, honestly, like part of the reason why I was able to have a V back after two C sections. And so I might have mentioned you not by not by. not by name when I was sharing my birth story, but you had a V-back after three C-sections.

And so I think I saw you post about it. I think I follow Able Speaks. And so I saw Able Speaks maybe repost your post and I was like, I'll be back after three C-sections. And so I reached out to Kelly and she told me who she used, Dula, connected me to all the right people. And then I was able to have a V-back. Well, that's generous. You did it. So, but yeah, it's fun for me to. I get to, you know, it's a journey to be able to have a V-back. So I love sharing with other people. After three C-sections, like that is, for some people, they think that that is unheard of. Oh, yeah.

I mean, I can't tell you how many people said that to me. I've never heard of anyone, you know, even people that are in, like, the birth world and as like their profession. They're like, I've never even heard of that. So, yeah, it was, I'm grateful to have found, you know, live in a city where there were of people that were willing to walk with me through that. But it was really fun to get to share with you and just to get to hear that you did it. I mean, I think people don't fully understand that it is, it's not easy.

It's mentally, I mean, it is hard. I've witnessed some profound like performances in life and feats of human strength. And I don't think any of it trumps that day. Yeah. Well, and I mean, all. all birth, whether it's C-section or whether it's a faginal birth or epidural or not, there are difficulties with all of it. But you having to be back after three C-sections with no epidural is, like, that is worth

celebrating. Absolutely. I don't know how you feel about this. But there were people in my life who were concerned, obviously, with me having to be back, including my parents. But I would always use your story. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

But I love that. There is this woman that I know who had to be back after three C-sections. And she went, you went to almost 43 weeks. And so I would tell everyone my in-laws and everyone around me when I was married 42 weeks, who were all like really worried. I was like, yeah, but I know someone who went to almost 43. I love that so much. And she did the thing of like, hey, with our big kids, like go stay with grandma and grandpa

for this week. Thank you guys. Because at the latest, it'll be that. And it's like, that week came and went. And the kids came. I know. And we still had not had that baby. I totally understand that.

My in-laws came. We were like, yeah, just come at 39 weeks. Yeah. Just, you just never know. It's a third baby. Definitely this baby will come earlier. That's right. And then I'm like, I felt, I mean, they're amazing.

So they never made us feel bad at all. But they were there. I was like, okay. It was fading. 40 weeks. It'll be soon. And then they're still there. They're still there.

And they ended up staying for a long time, which was amazing. Wow. But, yes, that waiting game. And then to. mentally. But you have to overcome so many obstacles, but I'm sure also. And so nuanced, you know, so there's so many things that you're like, I don't know how it's going to go. But honestly, you know what? I felt like Abel's life, I felt like made that journey so much easier for me. Because I was like, you know what, it's one day to time.

And I'm just going to take it one day of time. And I'm not going to worry about the next day. And I trusted the Lord knew what day his birthday was going to be on. And I just kept like reminding myself with that every day, you know, of, especially that last week where I was just like, is this baby ever going to come, you know? I know. And so. And even on that point, like, I hope and trust that like God, you know, uses this conversation of if somebody's made it this far in the recording and this has nothing to do. It's like, I'm not even married. Like, this is not the waters I'm swimming in that you're able to see in God's spirit is able to nudge you just with reminders of like hey your circumstances that i've you know the things that make no sense that are

confusing that are hard to reconcile with my nature that make you want to pull away from me like these are ever present opportunities to be reminded of to to personally in the most undesirable of ways experience the truths and the realities that that transcend our circumstances and our sufferings. And so that's certainly our hope and our prayer is whatever level of equipping and awareness around like, oh, yeah, I've maybe heard of stuff like that loosely. I didn't realize how often it happens that now you can know if a friend or a loved one, you know, ever gets a diagnosis like that. Hey, there is an organization that exists. Even if the doctor mentioned nothing about it, let them know we're out there and exist to support them and walk with them. And then,

and then also just in that transcendent way that the principles and the things that we can share about walking through Abel's life and walking alongside other people in hardship and in the unknown is applicable with whatever it is that you're walking through right now. And so know that, believe that. He sees you. He cares for you. You're not alone and he's not forgotten you. Thank you so much.

Amen. All right. Thanks for having us. Yes. Thank you. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Alley, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself.

On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.