Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 96 | Wayward Wokeness

Episode Date: April 8, 2019

We've been talking about it for months: Progressivism is infiltrating the evangelical church hidden in the Trojan horse of "social justice." Today we discuss yet another example. Ekemini Uwan was a speaker at the recent Sparrow Women's Conference, where she argued that "whiteness is wicked." We dive into what we know about Uwan's theology and weigh it against God's Word.    Copyright Blaze Media All Rights Reserved.

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Hey, guys. Welcome to Relatable. I hope that everyone had a wonderful weekend. So we have a really big episode.

If you are watching this on YouTube, by the way, if you're listening to this, you should subscribe to YouTube so you can watch my episodes. but if you are watching this on YouTube right now, you are going to notice that I'm looking down at my computer a lot, a lot more than usual. A lot of times I just kind of look at it for reference, for notes, and I riff, I kind of go off what's happening in my brain. But this is a very specific episode. And I don't want to, I don't want to just riff. I don't want to just do this extemporaneously. I really need to follow my notes closely because what we're talking about is not only important. Everything we talk about is important, but it's very specific. And it took a lot of research and a lot of writing and actually took me a really long time to prepare this one because it's such a

big and it's such a weighty subject and it deserves a lot of nuance. But it's also, it's really, really crucial to where the world is right now as far as race relations go, as far as where we are as a church theologically, and I'm going to do my very best to address this with compassion and with clarity and, of course, with biblical truth. It might not be perfect, and I look forward to hearing your feedback, as I always do, and I look forward to having honest dialogue with you about this very complicated subject. Hey, this is Steve Deast. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day's

show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary, grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Okay, now that we've got that, let's talk about what we're actually going to discuss today. I want to set up the context for this and tell you why we're talking about it at this specific

time. So we're going to kind of get into identity politics and specifically black theology and something called a black liberation theology. Now you might be asking, Ali, you're a white girl. Why are you talking about this? Well, because it's a theological subject and it happens to be very popular. It happens to be something that a lot of people are talking about right now. And I don't think the color of your skin or the amount of melanin that you have in your skin either qualifies or disqualifies you from talking about something that the word of God has something to say about. And so like I said, I'm going to approach this with nuance. I'm going to approach this in a spirit of understanding and even a spirit of teachability, knowing that I don't

know everything about not only this, but anything. I don't know everything about anything. And so I'm always open to dialogue, especially if, or really only if we're talking between Christians, our ultimate source of truth is the Word of God. If it's not, if our ultimate source of truth is ourselves or our emotions or some other subjective standard, then the conversation that we're going to have is going to be completely fruitless because we're going to be on different pages, literally. So the reason that we are talking about this is because this is something that was brought up at a very popular conference called the Sparrow Conference that happened in Dallas a couple weeks ago

as an evangelical women's conference. There were a lot of popular speakers that spoke at it. I was unable to go, but I actually received a text from one of my friends who had another friend who attended, who reached out to her and said, hey, I'm really concerned about what was taught at this particular conference and here are my thoughts about it. And so I heard the concerns and then I dug a little bit deeper into it. This friend, by the way, who came and talked to me about this is not white. So before anyone says out there, oh, this is just a bunch of white girls complaining about black theology at a conference that they didn't attend.

No, that's actually not an accurate description. But like I said, I'm just trying to understand as best I can. I will go ahead and say that this particular episode is not about the Sparrow Conference. I wasn't there. I can't judge everyone that spoke, nor do I want to judge everyone. everyone that spoke or anyone that spoke. All I can do is judge based on what I have and what I know for sure was said and then use that as a jumping off point to talk about this very important topic. But I did want to mention Sparrow Conference because it points to why we're talking about

this right now and why this came into my radar. So I want to read you first a quote from a white Christian teacher at this conference a couple weeks ago talking to black women. So the quote is, the thing for black women to do is to divest from blackness. Blackness is wicked. You must divest from blackness. Blackness kills black people too. So you're listening to that and you're probably like, okay, that's racist. Yep, that is racist. That person definitely isn't going to be asked to speak again. I would be asking, did they not check on this person? like you're going to tell black women to divest from blackness, that blackness is wicked? Like, are you kidding me? You want to talk about bigotry? Like, that is bigotry. Now, what if this person,

what if this person, this white person who said this quote said, no, no, no, no, I'm not saying that black people are evil. What if she said, I'm just saying that blackness is a social construct is evil, that the social construct of blackness is characterized by things like fatherless homes or or black on black violence. So that's evil, not black people. What if, what if she said that? You would probably still say, no, I'm not going to take that. That's still pretty racist. Because, why? Because you are generalizing a whole group of people based on the color of their skin and calling the social construct that is associated with the color of their skin wicked. That is racist, right? I mean, you're denigrating an entire group of people based on an immutable characteristic. And you would be right. I would agree with you. But, but let's, let's see what happens when we read the quote a different way.

So let's read this quote like this. The thing for white women to do here is to divest from whiteness. Whiteness is wicked. You must divest from whiteness. Whiteness kills white people too. Now all of a sudden, that changes it a little bit. Now some of you, maybe, might say, okay, that's not racist. That's just woke. So now all of a sudden, if you argue with that statement, it's not because you think it's racist. It's because you're fragile, right? You're just ignorant. Well, the version of the quote that we just read is actually the real quote. This was spoken by Ecimini.

I'm not totally sure how to pronounce her name. It's really pretty name. I just can't, I don't know for sure, how to pronounce it. Ecumini, Uwan at the Sparrow Conference, which is, like I said, the evangelical woman's conference in Dallas. And so the quote that white women need to divest from whiteness, that whiteness is wicked, that whiteness kills white people too. That is a direct quote coming from this speaker at the Sparrow Conference. Now, this conference included people like Lauren Chandler, who is the wife of Matt Chandler.

He is the pastor of the village church in the DFW area. Matt Chandler actually was a huge part of my story and my coming into the faith and really realizing the intellectual part of Christianity that really is part and parcel with the Christian faith. His sermons, probably back in 2009, 2010, had a huge effect on me in a very positive way, this radical idea that you do not graduate from the gospel. You just move deeper into the gospel. The more that we read the Bible, the more that we study theology, the more beautiful and rich and big the gospel becomes not smaller.

And so I attribute a lot of my spiritual growth early on in my walk to Matt Chandler. So I don't want it to seem like I'm denigrating him and his entire family. There are things that I disagree with him on now. I think that he has approached racial reconciliation the wrong way. It makes me sad to hear him talking about things like white privilege and the church being woke. I really disagree with him on how he has approached those things. But I also appreciate a lot of his ministry and a lot of. of the truth that he brings. He changed the game in a lot of ways, not just for me, but also

for a lot of young Christians when he was really becoming, I don't want to say famous, but kind of really becoming well known on the Christian stage. Now, his wife, Lauren Chandler, has been kind of known to be a little bit more progressive than him when it comes to how she has at least talked about her theology. Again, I'm not calling either of these people false teachers, but these are the people that was there, not Matt Chandler, but Lauren Chandler. But Lauren and also Jin Wilkin, who is also part of the village church in the DFW area that's Dallas-Fort Worth, if you don't know. And this is a reformed Baptist church. This is an evangelical church. This is a mainstream church, a church that at one point probably would have been considered theologically

conservative might still, might still be considered theologically conservative in a lot of ways, but certainly have allowed the social justice doctrine that I believe is secular to be trickled in. So like I said, this is a mainstream conference with mainstream people. They hosted a very wide variety of progressive female Bible teachers. You can go to sparrowwomen.com. You can click on their 2019 teachers. I researched every single speaker that was listed publicly on the site. And the majority of what I found, not all of them, not all of them, but the majority of

what I found have a social justice left-leaning bit, at least in what they publicize on their websites, on social media, on some of the things that they've said during podcast. They are very concerned with social justice. This does not negate their faith. It doesn't negate all of their credibility. It doesn't make them bad people. This is just an observation. And it's important, I think it's pertinent to the discussions that we have been having

about how progressivism and about how social justice are kind of reaching into previously what we're considered theologically conservative circles. It's important that we recognize that trend is actually. actually happening. So like I said, a friend reached out to me about this who had a friend herself, and I have since connected with this friend a little bit who had concerns about the conference. And then so I started digging in. That's when I started looking at these speakers. And then I came across an article on a website called The Witness. And you can go to, I think it's thewitness.com. Let's see. It is The WitnessbBC.com. And so you can go and you can look at this article

that is called captive audience, a black woman's reflection on the Sparrow Conference. So I always want to tell you whenever I remember to the source because I want you guys to be able to fact check me. I never want you guys to sit there and wonder, well, is Ali, is she exaggerating this? Is she not telling me the truth? Well, I want you to do the research for yourself. I want you to come to your own conclusions. I can supplement your own critical, supplement, your own critical thinking and your own analysis and your own research, but I can't do it for you and nor do I want to think for you. And I want to be held to a high account of truth and being factual.

So go to the WitnessbBC.com if you would like to look at this particular article. But I read this article about the conference that highlighted an interview with Ecumini Uwan, the lady that we just quoted at the very beginning of this podcast. She is a self-proclaimed theologian. I don't say self-proclaimed to denigrate her, but she does proclaim herself a theologian whose main focus seems to be on deconstructing white supremacy in anti-black racism. I wanted to actually watch the interview, but unfortunately, there is a link to the interview in this article, but sadly, Sparrow Conference has taken the video off of YouTube.

It is nowhere to be found on the internet. I search high and low for it. If you are able to find it, please let me know. And I think that we will see quickly as we keep talking why they took down that. interview and why it is causing a lot of controversy, not just at the conference itself, but also in the reaction after the conference. So some of that reaction is coming from Uwan herself, who tweeted, after Sparrow Conference, took the YouTube video of her interview down. She said, this is not an apology. This is a terrible PR cleanup job and a terrible one at that. I went into that racist

space talking about Sparrow Conference and did what I was supposed to do, tell the truth, to fully embody black in all caps woman. Instead of being thanked for truth I shared in grace and love, Rachel Joy, director of Sparrow, has chosen to withhold my pictures. She goes on about that. She nor her racist organization are sorry for their mistreatment. She says, understand these three things about me. It is impossible to silence me.

I cannot and shall not ever be erased. And if you come for the queen, you best not miss. And then she includes a gif of Rihanna putting on a crown. And Jackie Hill Perry, who has an awesome book that is called Gay Girl Good God, who has just an incredible testimony. She tweeted out in support of Uwan saying that she fully supported everything that Uwan said, that she had nothing but amen. And that honestly, the white people that had any bad reaction to anything that she said, who were offended by this, it was because they were being confronted with idols and their identities. And it's because they're prideful.

She apparently doesn't feel like Yuan had anything wrong or theologically off to say, and that it's really just kind of white people's fault for being offended. So that's where we are on kind of either side of this. So first, like I said, I'm not going to speak to Sparrow Conference as a whole. I didn't go. I'm sure that there were wonderful, godly, biblical, gospel-centered things that were said at the conference, done at the conference. I'm not making judgments.

I just don't know about the motives of all the people who put on. the conference. I'm not saying that everyone there was a was a false teacher or anything like that. But again, the reason why the Sparrow Conference is relevant is because it is mainstream, because it is evangelical, because it is in the Protestant Reformed Circle in the Dallas, Texas area. I mean, that is like the hub or what a lot of people consider the hub of like mainstream evangelicalism. And what I mean my mainstream is I don't mean, I mean that it's not far left. It's not like coming out of nowhere. It's not coming out of the margins.

I mean, this is in the thick of the reformed, reformed evangelical world. So this conference or this, yeah, this conference hosted people like Yuan and other social justicians. And that is important to know that there is this kind of change happening and this willingness to share a stage with people like Yuan who says something like whiteness is wicked. And if you want to know why I believe, because I'm not going to get into this entirely, I'll get into it a little bit, but if you want to know why I believe according to the Bible, that social justice theology is wrong. There are six episodes that I would like you to listen to. You can listen

to episode 19, social justice isn't justice. Episode 45, You're Not a Victim. Episode 58, The Religion of Progressivism. Episode 86, Wote Christianity. Episode 87, suburban white women and episode 90, the gospel of grievance. So we really have covered this a lot because it's, it's so important. And I believe it runs counter to what the gospel says. And it's important that we kind of take the blinders off and we're able to see this very popular doctrine for what it is. So I'm going to use quotes from this article, the captive audience article on witnessbbc.com that's making the rounds. And I'm also going to use quotes from the interview with Uwan and things that she has also written and use that as kind of our jumping off point to talk

about identity politics and theology, particularly as we are seeing it manifested in something called black theology or black liberation theology. We're not even going to be able to get into all of what black theology is. We don't we don't even have time to do all of that. There's so much in this. Maybe I'll even do like a few part series. I am learning this. I am researching this. I am trying to be as thorough as possible. So there's always going to be more to uncover more that we know. I hope to have people on the podcast to be able to talk about this from both sides of the issue. So this episode is really just kind of a primer of it all. So here, here is part of the article. First, the author of this article, she bemoans what she calls the quote monolithic culture of the

conference, which she says was centered on whiteness from the get-go. That's what she noticed from the very beginning. She said that she felt welcome, but she didn't really feel like she was a part of things. This wasn't for lack of representation. I think that's important to point out. So if you do go to sparrowwomen.com and you look at the list of speakers from 2019, you will see that they were extremely racially diverse. But the author of this article felt that most of the conference centered on whiteness and catered to white women until Uwan spoke. And like I said, I wish that I could show the interview. I wish I could watch the interview, but Sparrow Conference has taken it off YouTube. Now, according to this article, Uwan said in her interview at this conference, she said, quote,

Jesus rose bodily as a brown-skinned Palestinian godman. She then reminds the audience, though, the gospel is offensive. She also said, quote, race is a social construct that was organized around strife, difference, and racial stratification. White people on the top, black people on the bottom. She also said whiteness is rooted in plunder, theft, enslavement of Africans, and the genocide of Native Americans. Whiteness is a power structure.

The thing for white women to do here is to divest from whiteness. Okay, so the author says that the white women around her were visibly angry, that one of them apparently whispered that she was going to tell someone about this or someone was going to hear about this. Apparently at one point, Yuan said that those who voted for Donald Trump are to blame for all of this. And also reportedly women got up and walked out. I heard that from multiple sources.

This article also says, quote, Uwan touched on the recent college admission scandal, the 2016 presidential election, detention camps in Texas, calling the modern day concentration camps, all products of whiteness. Now, the funny thing right off the bat, the ironic thing about this is that Sparrow's theme, at least this year, I don't know if it's in general or just this year, is peacemaking. The conference was said to be about making peace. Maybe the other speakers accomplished that, and that's great. that we all need to learn about, especially me. I need to be a much better peacemaker. I need to hear

some sermons about peacemaking. And that's something that we all need to apply to our lives. Now, Uwan's defense might be my defense a lot of times that speaking truth is not the same thing as not making peace. I talk about very divisive things. And Uwan is absolutely correct to say that the gospel is offensive. The gospel is offensive. But what she is preaching, at least here, at least exemplified in these quotes, is not the gospel. The gospel is not that whiteness as either a skin color or a social construct is wicked or a social structure is wicked. The gospel does not compel you to divest of your whiteness or your blackness or your Asianness, whatever it is. The gospel is not even, it's not even centrally the freedom from worldly oppression.

that is not the good news. That is not what makes the gospel offensive. The gospel is that you, no matter who you are or what you are, black, white, Hispanic, illegal immigrant, citizen, rich, poor, slave, free, oppressed, unoppressed, disabled, able-bodied are a wicked, depraved, sinner in need of a savior. Romans 322 through 23, for there is no distinction, for all have sinned, short of the glory of God and are justified by His grace as a gift through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. All have sent, the Bible says, all, all, every single one of us. We don't read that certain people who have benefited from the social structures according to their skin color have sin more than others. There is no distinction, Roman says. It says, all have sent, all have fallen short.

All are justified by the same grace, the same gift, the same redemption, the same atoning work of Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2-1 through 5, and you were dead in the trespasses and sins of which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience, among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature, children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ. By grace, you have been saved. The Greek word for all means all, each and every. It's

pass. I don't really even know how to pronounce it. It's P-A-S. It means the whole of it, each and every, of all types. Okay, so we've all fallen short. We are all dead in sin apart from Christ. By definition, there are no varying degrees of death. Your heart is beating, your brain is functioning or they're not. So the Bible says in Ephesians too that we are dead apart from Christ. That means that there are not good people, bad people, and people in the middle. There are not oppressors and unoppressors. When it comes to the kingdom of God, there are dead people bound for hell and alive people bound for heaven. So it would seem a little odd for us to look at an entire group of people and say, you need to divest of this immutable characteristic

and the social structure that it represents in order to be more like Christ, in order to understand this so-called offensive gospel. Well, the gospel is offensive for the exact opposite reason that Yuan is saying it is offensive. The gospel is offensive because it does not discriminate. It is indiscriminatory in its condemnation of sins and sinners. Neither slave nor free, nor Jew, nor Greek, nor male, nor female is free from the eternal consequences of sin, and nor are any barred from eternal life based on their earthly station or their ethnicity. So that means that neither whiteness nor blackness is the root of our problems, neither liberals nor conservatives, neither Trump supporters nor Trump haters. Sin. Sin is the cause of the problem

for all of us, both systemic and individual. And the gospel is the only light that shines on the darkness of sin and dries it all up till it crumbles and dissipates. Now, you might say, Allie, this is the only thing that you've heard from this person. You are taking her out of context. Well, yes, that is partly right. What she is saying is not in context because I cannot watch the video, which is why I can't make a holistic statement about this woman's entire theology. That's not what I want to do.

I don't know that she truly doesn't understand the gospel herself. I hope that she does. And this was just maybe she misspoke or maybe she said, all of this later and these just happen to be very, very unfortunate quotes that completely contradict the gospel. I'm not judging her salvation. I can't judge the motives entirely of her heart, but her publicized words do beg a response from scripture. All of our words should be scrutinized under scripture. And I am not navigating these waters blindly. This is not someone who has not said similar things in public. She is a public figure who has made her views known. She wrote an article

last year for her website called Sista. So Sistamatictheology.com called decolonized discipleship. And again, I encourage you to go to this website and actually look at this blog post where she argues that Christianity in America has been colonized by white people. This is manifested, she said, in urban areas that resemble colonies. I do not know what she means by that. I really don't. She doesn't actually explain it specifically in this article.

She tries to, and we're going to get to that. But she doesn't talk about exactly what that looks like. Side note about that, this is very typical. It's a typical technique of social justicians. They fill their arguments with kind of pseudo intellectual, academic, sophisticated words so that if you ask them to clarify, they can just claim that you're ignorant, tell you to Google it, tell you that you are just fragile and avoid revealing that they don't actually know what they're talking about either.

Very typical. So here is a quote from this article. What kinds of disciples are being made? Do the minds in the lives of these urban disciples reflect a baptism of faith in the marginalized brown-skinned Palestinian godman, Jesus Christ, who was bludgeoned and hung naked on that rugged cross at Calvary? Or does their baptism reflect in a capitalist white Jesus clothed in a polo blazer, khakis, and loafers?

There are grave consequences for worshiping the latter, which is no more than an idol. and disciplining people of color to do the same. Okay, let's unpack this for a second. So number one, Jesus was not Palestinian. He wasn't. It would be fine if he was, but he wasn't. That is a historically erroneous statement. And it's made in an effort to fit Jesus into our current political arguments about Israel and Palestine and to align Jesus with yet another group that the left sees as marginalized and oppressed. That's what she is trying to do here, and it's wrong. So Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea, which is now in what is the geographical region considered Palestine. But in the Bible, Palestine was not known as Palestine. Okay. So it's completely inaccurate to say

that Jesus was born in Palestine, and much less that he was a Palestinian. Palestine as a geographical region didn't actually exist until 135 AD. So that's 135 years after Jesus' death. Plus, let's also include here, Jesus was a Jew. It would have been much more biblically and historically accurate to say that this Jewish godman, Jesus Christ. So right away with this description, we have to question, and we have the right to question whether or not we should be taking Uwan seriously as an expositor of the word. Because already we see that she's attempting to fit Jesus into her current political views rather than the historical and socio-political context of Jesus' time. Already, she is bending what God's word says to her political worldview. Because her goal here, again, is to give Jesus

as many intersectionality points as possible, as is considered intersectional in 2019. She is trying to make him look like the most marginalized person in America today. rather than who he actually was. Okay, so second point, her quote, or does their baptism reflect faith in a capitalist white Jesus clothes and a polo blazer khakis and loafers? She calls this Jesus an idol. And I would say true.

I mean, I don't know personally who is doing this, but I don't doubt, I don't doubt her at all, that this happens in churches. I don't doubt that there are people who have wanted to make Jesus more like them. I mean, it is documented that Jesus used to kind of be painted sometimes is this blonde-haired, blue-eyed guy, which is absolutely ridiculous, by the way. That is ridiculous. And I agreed that that's an idol because that's not who Jesus was. And so it says a lot about someone's heart who would depict Jesus to look more like them rather than who he actually was.

So no doubt about that. People have been doing this since Jesus lived on Earth because they're uncomfortable with his divinity. And so in a lot of different ways, not just physical ways, they have tried to make Jesus more like him. Like you see, there is a whole subsection, not the entirety of the LGBT community, but there's a subsection of the LGBT community who wants to say that Jesus was feminine, that maybe he was gay. People have been doing this since the beginning of time trying to make Jesus more like them so that they can be more comfortable with him and they can be represented by him.

And I agree with her that that is wrong. We've talked about that on this podcast, not making God, into someone who fits your own expectation. So God is not your boyfriend. God is not your gal pal. God is not here to tell you how awesome you are. God, Jesus is the great I am, the beginning and the end, the alpha and the omega. That's not up for negotiation. That's not up for interpretation. But what I would say to Uwan, while we agree on that point that this apparently, that this Jesus that is apparently being propagated by people as white wearing a polo blazer khakis and loafers, again, I haven't seen that, but I would agree that that Jesus is wrong. But in the same way that

that Jesus is wrong, so is Palestinian Jesus. Because again, this is an attempt to make Jesus look like the people that we deem oppressed in 2019 in order to make an extra biblical point. That is an idol. By calling Jesus Palestinian to support your politics, you have just created an idol. Not because it really matters that much that whether or not he was born in the geographical region of Palestine. Of course, it does matter, but it's not like a salvation issue. But when you look at why you're actually doing that, why you're doing it, it's the same thing with people saying like America is God's chosen nation or it would be the same thing as saying Jesus was born in a place other than Judea. You're making an idol out of him because you are trying to fit God,

fit Jesus into your current definition of who you want him to be. And that is idolatrous. So as Matthew 73 says, I would say, why do you see the spec that is in your own brother, that is in your brother's eye, but you do not notice the log that is in your own eye, because she just accused white people of doing the very same thing that she is doing by calling Jesus a Palestinian godman. He was not Palestinian. Also, I think it's interesting, the use of the word capitalist. We also see that her political views are dominating her view of Jesus. Capitalism is apparently part of this idolatry that she's seen in white. to her, which denotes to me that she probably, I don't know for sure, but she probably might

would say that Jesus is a socialist, which is the opposite of capitalism, which we also know that's not true, because I would say that Jesus is neither. There's no evidence that he was either, that he transcends all economic systems. I, of course, would say, though, just as a side note, that as far as worldly systems go, capitalism has been the greatest force to eradicate poverty and suffering that has ever existed. And there's just no factual question on that. that. That's not to say Jesus was a capitalist or a socialist, but to latch capitalism onto this white idolatry doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me again, but we're seeing that political ideology coming through in how she characterizes Jesus. She goes on to say, quote,

given the ubiquity of white supremacy in this nation and the church's role in perpetuating it in the past and present, the time has arrived for the church to implement decolonized discipleship, rescuing people of color from contempt for their skin, hair, body, and culture, and bringing them into the delight in and love of who God created them to be ontologically. So ontologically can have a few different meanings, but it's typically related to the nature of being or like what is existence. She goes on to explain how white supremacy, what she says is everywhere in the United States and the American church is taking place through the colonization of churches in urban areas. She says that black men and women are kind of told to hate themselves, to resent themselves,

to hate who and how they are, what they look like, how they talk, how they dress, how they worship. She says, quote, one way this manifests itself in the church is in the onslaught of biblical manhood and womanhood teachings. These teachings are extra biblical and center on white middle upper class norms, communicating to male singles that they should look for desire and pursue a marriage partner who embodies the characteristics of a biblical woman as a consequence of this legalistic teaching. Black women are implicitly taught to assimilate an aspire to whiteness. Okay, well, let's break this down for a second. So black men are told that they should look for and pursue a marriage partner

who embodies the characteristics of a biblical woman in that somehow makes black women aspire to whiteness. I'm going to need some examples of that. She puts biblical womanhood in quotes, but she doesn't explain what that version of biblical womanhood is that is making black women feel like they need to be more white. And I would love to hear about that. Truly, I'm not being sarcastic. I would love to learn more about that. What are you talking about? I want to know what kind of sermons you're talking about. What kind of doctrine are you talking about? What verses are being misused in order to direct males to desire someone that is more white than black? Like, I want to know what definition of biblical womanhood is being propagated by these, what would seem to be false teachers that is leading people in

this direction. But it's just this very vague. very, again, academic-sounding sentence that we are just supposed to say, yep, that happens. I just, I need to know a little bit more of what that looks like. Are you saying that biblical womanhood is inherently white? Because that's not right. I mean, both of us, if we care about God's word, should be able to go into God's word and say, okay, well, this is what God says that biblical womanhood looks like. And it has nothing to do with race.

It has nothing to do with ethnicity. this is the word of God that is true for everyone everywhere. And so we should be able to agree on that, right? But that's not where she ends up here. We're kind of left hanging with, well, what were these teachings that made people believe that? We don't know. And if this was true, if this was true, then I think that it's bad and we need to have a conversation about it, but it needs to be based on the Bible and it needs to be based on fact. But what happens is when I push back, when I ask for specifics, the response that is gotten, and you can see this all over social, media. I've seen this happen in the past week or so. If people have discussed this specific article,

the response is trust black women. Trust black women. That's the three-word mantra that you are going to see when you question this. White people, we will get accused of white fragility. That is honestly just a logical fallacy of ad hominem. And fallacies are typically used to avoid actual engagement, which typically means that they don't really have anything to back up what they're saying, but you're just told that you're fragile, you're ignorant, that you just need to trust black women. Kind of like we were told to believe all women during the Kavanaugh hearings. We are to let go of reason. We're to let go of doubt.

We're to let go of any questions that we have. We're supposed to reserve any wondering that we have about the veracity of these statements or even just about the specifics of these statements. we are just told to not in agreement and understanding. She says that black women and men have been indoctrinated with this colonization, and a lot of them have believed this false theology and a false gospel. The people, she says that there are people who have kind of just fallen into this and they aspire to this whiteness. Well, that's how she is avoiding the question of, okay, well, what about the black people who don't feel oppressed by the church?

what about the people who haven't lived your experience and feel comfortable in a mostly white church or feel comfortable in these urban churches that you say are violently. She uses the word violently violently, violently colonizing the people around. She would probably say, well, they've been so colonized that they don't even know. They're brainwashed, basically. I'm guessing that's probably what she would say deducing from what she said in this article. Yeah, I mean, I get, yeah, I think that that's pretty much just, that's just a cop out. that she's just a cop out to basically say,

to basically say that I don't want to contend with outliers. Like, I don't want to contend with people or who she would consider outliers. And there's nothing you could say. I mean, that's like what I would say. I would say, okay, I mean, there's nothing you can say to that. And I think that she would probably know that. That's how she avoids that question to say that anyone who is in the church, who is black who disagrees with her is just basically brainwashed.

So she goes on to say, quote, white supremacy is a global project. consequently, America is a white supremacist nation as a function of this reality. And this means that we people of color have all had our minds colonized to varying degrees. So again, we see her singling out whiteness as the source of evil, which is not only inaccurate, but is also unbiblical, as we have already read. It is the same thing as saying masculinity is the source of evil or femininity is the source of evil. If we want to go back to Eve, I mean, Eve ate the fruit for the first time. Do we really, are we comfortable with saying femininity has caused all evil? Are you comfortable with that?

I'm not comfortable with that. I'm not going to take responsibility for something that Eve done. Of course, I play a part in original sin, but I'm not responsible directly for what she did. I'm not comfortable with saying that all women are to blame or all men are to blame. Are you comfortable with that? You shouldn't be. I mean, so let's just apply this. Let's apply this to other people who are not white.

What if I said, look at the black community in America. Look at the crime rates. Look at the black on black homicide. Look at fatherlessness. Look at the abortion rates. What if I use that to say that blackness is the root of evil or that blackness is evil? What if I said, look at the Muslim majority countries, how havoc is wreaked by fundamentalists

every day. What if I said, look at Africa in the Middle East where slavery exists to this day? What if I use this to say, well, the problem is blackness. The problem is being Arab. What if I said that? that would be wrong, right? That would be racist. Why? Because blackness is not the problem. Is not the reason for the problems in the black community. In the same way, the whiteness is not the problem. Sin is the problem. And sin might manifest itself differently in different countries,

different churches, different regions. But to say that anything other than sin is to blame for division or oppression is, again, replacing the Bible with your political views. She says that we need to look at which theology we are preaching. Quote, does this theology cause me to look in the mirror marvel at God's handiwork instead of despising my reflection? When I close my eyes and picture Jesus, do I see a white man or a brown-skinned Palestinian man? First question, yes, to a degree. I don't think that we need to be too concerned with what we look like, but appreciative of how God made us? Absolutely. I mean, as Romans 9 says, now this is talking about more eternal things, but I think it goes to this too.

Well, the clay say to the potter, why did you make me this way? No, we are to delight in God's creation in the same way that Romans 9 is talking about. We are supposed to delight in God's eternal plan and his predestining plan. But the second question that she asked, when I close my eyes and picture Jesus, do I see a white man or a brown skin Palestinian man? I'm not really totally on board with that. Yes, I think we should see Jesus accurately as he was in flesh, because it might say something about our heart if we are picturing him a wrong way than was depicted

to make ourselves more comfortable. But I still think that she's putting way too much stock in what Jesus looks like. And there she goes with this Palestinian thing again, which to me shows her own idol. Here's the thing. I am really unconcerned with the amount of melanin in Jesus's skin. I am exclusively concerned with the amount of power in his crucifixion. Okay? So we need to put priority on the right thing. She says we need to account for white supremacy in our circles. We need to make sure it's being addressed. Okay, let's do that. Wherever we see racism, you're right. We need to call it out. But the argument from this side would be that it's not always direct, that it's not always tangible, that it's not always personal, it's a system, it's pervasive,

it's ubiquitous, it's everywhere. I read that article multiple times and I still don't really know what she's talking about. And of course, it will be said that it's because I'm not woken off, because I haven't lived her experiences. But I understand that I haven't lived her experiences, and I'm not saying that I know everything, and I'm not saying that I have. But what I want to know is what this stuff really tangibly looks like. Show me the doctrines that are being taught. Show me the false teachings that are being propagated. Show me how these churches are, quote, colonizing urban areas. Show me what that looks like. Show me the word said. Show me the actions taken. I want to know examples. I want to see what this looks like so I can wrap my brain

around it and we can join hands and say, yes, that is wrong. That specific act is wrong. That specific teaching is wrong. But instead, we get these big, generalized academic explanations of how whiteness has colonized and marginalized black people in the church, but we don't know how. We're just supposed to accept it and say, yep, that's right. Like, I want to know the theology that is being put out. there that is denigrating people who are not white, especially in urban areas. And that's not to say it's not there. I just want to know what it is. So we can talk about it. But I can do nothing with this article except point us back to the word and say, what you're saying doesn't line up with what God's word says. And maybe the people that you're talking about, the people that are colonizing these urban areas,

maybe they're not lining up with what God's word says either. And we all need to come together and go back to our objective standards and say, what does God say about this? What is the Bible? Who was Jesus? That's, I mean, when you don't have, when you don't have any kind of tangible grounding or any kind of physical evidence that you're pointing to for your argument, it becomes non-falsifiable, which is kind of, which is almost a logical fallacy. It's almost what these kind of social justicians typically do because they don't want to be proven wrong. And so if you base everything on your own experience, then you can't have any kind of logical or theological discussion about it whatsoever because it's your experience. Well, experience is something, but it's not everything.

I mean, think about how I'm making my own argument. I have stated this premise over and over again, but even in this podcast, Marxist social justice. I know that's a buzzword, but it's accurate. Marxist social justice is overtaking the church. But here's how I back that up. I say, here is how I know. Here are the people preaching it. Here are the words that you will hear used and the messages that you will hear conveyed. Here are the examples of this. I try to prove, I try to bring concrete examples. That's what I'm doing right now. I'm reading from a specific article, a specific person who spoke at a specific conference that is relevant to our conversation. I'm not just saying this is happening and I feel like it's happening or I heard this happen once or these are the experiences

of other people that I've talked to. This is, I am pulling from real words that someone's said, and we've looked at numbers for the past few weeks about this. This is something that is happening that is falsifiable. It's not false, but it's falsifiable. And you can see it depicted. And I'm pointing you to real examples of it. I don't just give you a bunch of concepts and then leave it to you to understand. I say, no, here's what I'm seeing. Here's where I'm seeing it. Here is what it specifically sounds like, and here's what scripture has to say about it all. But when you understand where Uwan and people like her coming from, you understand the lack of specificity that is being used. So Uwan's theology is what is referred to, maybe not in totality, but specifically from this

article, Black liberation theology. So really, it's a theology that claims to focus more on praxis, meaning the physical manifestation of the gospel demonstrated through liberation from oppression, liberation of the poor, liberation of the marginalized. This is a consequence or a product of 19th century social gospel that came from liberal theology that said that the Christian's job is to lift people out of poverty and out of oppression. But the social gospel separated itself from evangelism, separated itself from sharing the gospel and from the central idea of Christianity that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Now, there was a reaction to the social gospel of the 19th century.

in the 20th century that moved in the other direction saying, hang on a second. Nope, it's all about evangelism. It's all about the gospel. But then that movement kind of started forsaking social responsibility, our responsibility to the least of these. So what we are dealing with now, what we've been dealing with for really over 20 years is the merging of these two things. 19th century, 20th century, 21st century, they're coming together and there is tension. the realization that the gospel is central, that it cannot be forsaken or replaced or deprioritized or watered down, but, and well, not really even but, but, and God does care about justice on earth. The Lord's prayer, may your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. But I would argue that black liberation theology identity, politics theology, is a product of the 19th century social gospel movement that makes the salvation of Christ and the unity offered by. the gospel, less important. And it prioritizes race relations and power dynamics. It's part of something called critical theory. Critical theory is the analysis of the oppressor versus the oppressed.

It ties every individual's identity to a group and then it, based on, you know, their skin color, socioeconomic status, whatever, and then assigns them to either the side of the oppressor or the oppressed. Everything is viewed through that lens. Critical theory is, part of Marxism. Again, that buzzword that people kind of turn off when they hear it. But, I mean, it's a real ideology. It was the ideology, of course, of Karl Marx that pits class against class, the oppressed against the oppressor. He, of course, believed in abolishing capitalism, which is why it shouldn't really surprise us that when we look at all of these things together, that Yuan assigned capitalist to this white idolatrous Jesus, she is pointing to this oppressed

versus oppressor dynamic, which is so central to Marxism, to critical theory, to black liberation theology, which all have, which all kind of go hand in hand. So here are the questions that we need to answer in the midst of all of this. Is Bible believing Christians as if there were any other kinds of Christians that exist? Number one, does racism exist? Yes. Are there white supremacists? Yes. Do they exist in this country? Yes. Has white supremacy been a part of America's history. Yes. Yes. Of course. Yes. And number two, is racism is sin? Yes. Racism is hate. First John has a lot to say about hate. First John 310. By this, it is evident who are the children of God and who are the children of the devil. Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

First John 420. If anyone says, I love God and hates his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. Number three, should we speak up about racism? While in light of number one and number two, I say, yes, I think so individually and where we see it systemically. But there are arguments on what systemic racism looks like in 2019 in America, and if it actually exists, there are real legitimate arguments about this, not just made from white people, but also from black people.

some people say that the criminal justice system is racist. Some people say that the death penalty is racist. Some people say that police brutality is systemic racism. Some people say that welfare is systemic racism. I would say yes to that one, to the welfare. And I would also say that abortion is systemic racism. The majority of babies killed are minorities. And I believe that we have a responsibility as Christians to fight against that. but that doesn't mean that doesn't mean that we shouldn't ask questions. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't look at the facts of police brutality and say, okay, well, there are more white people that are killed by the police every year than black people. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't ask that question or we shouldn't look a little bit deeper into that.

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't dig further into the criminal justice system and look for evidence of racial bias. And when we find evidence, we need to seek justice. as the Bible says, seek justice and love mercy. Number four, racism is a sin problem. It must be confronted with the gospel, just like all sins, just like the sin of abortion, just like the sin of theft, just like any other sin. It has to be confronted with the truth of the gospel, with the power of Christ on the cross, dying for our sins and then rising again to defeat death forever. The gospel does compel us to reconciliation. But here, is gospel-based biblical justice. It has a few characteristics that differ from the justice that it sounds like Uwan is talking about. Number one, it's obviously based on the Bible. So that means a few things. Number two, it is based on evidence. That means it is based on reality. It is based on truth. It is based on facts. We do not abandon reason in exchange for experience or emotion. Jeremiah 179, the heart is wicked. No one can understand it. Matthew 10,

16. Jesus tells us to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. We doves. We are, do not abandon reason. That is something that we often hear from the social justice left, that we have to use people's experiences as the basis for our beliefs. No, not entirely. Experiences are important, but our beliefs have to be backed up on truth, have to be backed up on evidence. And the evidence must be looked at as a whole. We do not abandon our intellectual capacities when it comes to justice. That is part of why God gave us intellectual capacity so that we could reason so that we could have wisdom, so that we could have a discernment that is based on actual truth, not just on an experience. And number three, it is direct. A justice is based on truth

that is based on fact, that is based on the Bible, and it is not general. It is not assigned to entire groups. It is assigned to those involved. We do not have the capacity as finite human beings did integrate an entire group of people for the sins of a few because the equation, as we've discussed, doesn't work out that way. Now, God is a little bit different. We see him condemn all of Israel in the Old Testament. He can condemn the entire world if he wants to apart from Christ. We are all guilty. We are all part of original sin. But justice here on earth doesn't look like that because we don't have that capacity. We don't have the ability to condemn entire groups of people based on the sins of a few people that share their melanin counts. We don't have the ability to do that

that is not just because guess what some people don't fit that generalization this was the problem with racial reparations that we talked about last week that okay if you say all white people have to pay all black people are you going to say that the middle class family who was struggling to get food on the table that they need to pay reparations to biont and conier west is that what you're telling me what about the people who had nothing to do with slavery black and white what about the black people who did sell slaves what about the native americans who sold slaves that's the problem with collectivist justice with social justice as people who are propagating today's social justice are advocating for. That's the problem with it.

It's not just because it's not based on reality. It is not direct. And the equation doesn't work out because we are finite. And so we are not able to come up with the proper equation for this. This is what Thomas Soul calls cosmic justice. So if we say that all white people are to blame for oppression, that whiteness is wicked, that we need to divest from whiteness, as she said at the Sparrow Conference, then we violate both the truth-based qualification for justice and the basis for directness.

Because black people have had animosity against Asians. Hispanics have animosity against black people. Black people have owned slaves, like I said, and like I said, so did Native Americans. So that doesn't really work. It's not based on truth and it's not direct. So how can we say that that is righteous judgment, that that's righteous justice? Here's a quote by Thomas Soul. To this very moment, slavery continues in parts of Africa in the Islamic world. Very little noise is made about it by those who denounce the slavery of the past in the West because there is no money to be made denouncing it and no political advantages to be gained.

And so, again, we see the selective outrage from critical race theorists and from social justice advocates, leftist social justice advocates, forgetting about oppression that has, existed all over the world in every place of people of all skin colors. And so to say that whiteness is wicked misses the point of the gospel entirely that we are all depraved. It doesn't mean it doesn't manifest itself differently in different places with different people. It does. But to say that whiteness is wicked, that is wrong and it's racist. So biblical justice is true. It is unbiased and it is direct. It does not look at skin color, it's socioeconomic status, it gender, and that goes both ways. So,

it is wrong for a system to favor white rich people. That's not biblical justice, and it is equally wrong to not give justice to white rich people because they are rich and white. That is what social justice seeks to do. They say that these people are privileged. Let us hold them back while we hoist the other up. The problem with that is people, as we have just discussed, are not a part of groups. They are individuals. So saying that all white people are culprits of oppression is not accurate because there are white people who have been oppressed themselves. To say all black people are oppressed isn't accurate because there are black people who are not oppressed and who have, um, who have oppressed other people. Same with people of all types and all skin colors.

And that my friends, my relatable listeners, is the beauty of the gospel. Second Corinthians 517. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed. New has come. That means we have a new identity in Christ. Galatians 3.26. through 29. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek. There is neither slave nor free. There is no male and female for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. So what does that mean? How are we supposed to act? Ephesians 431 through 32. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you along with all malice. Be kind to one

another, tender-hearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you. 1 Corinthians 13, 4 through 7, love is patient and kind. Love does not envy or boast. It is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way. It is not irritable or resentful. It is not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes, all things, hopes, all things, endures all things.

Ephesians 431. Actually, I already said that. I guess it was just really important for me to put into my notes twice. Hebrews 12, 14 through 15, strive for peace with everyone and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord, see to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God and that no root of bitterness springs up and causes trouble and by it many become defiled. So this goes both ways. White, black, oppressed, or not, the oppressed are held to the same standard of holiness as not unoppressed. All races to the same standard of perfection, which Christ obtained for us on our behalf. so that we could look at one another and say, oh, you got it together? You got it? No, okay, me neither.

Okay, then let's do this together. Then let's seek to truly understand each other, realizing, realizing that we are not just a part of our groups, not just our color of our skin. We're not just our gender. We are individuals. And I want to learn from my friends who have experienced racism and sexism in the church. I want to cry with them. I want to hold their hands and say, okay, let's, let's make this right. We are all sinners. We have all fallen short. We've all been given the same amount of grace. We were all dead in our sins apart from Christ. And now we are in Christ. We have a new identity. We are a family now. We are one. We are part of the body of Christ. How can we combat real injustice together in a tangible way? I want to mourn with those who mourn.

I want to rejoice with those who rejoice. I want to be defined by empathy and love. But I am not going to seek a justice or a theology that is not based on truth. And that is not direct. I am not going to assign blame to all men, to all power, to all the rich people, to all the people of any group, I'm not going to stereotype. I will see the body of Christ as my brothers and sisters in Christ, and I will seek peace with them. And I will love them more than I love myself doing what the Bible tells me to do, which is outdoing one another in honor. That is what we are called to do. People call that colorblind. No, not really. I think of, I think people of different backgrounds, I have different experiences that are valuable. And now we should listen to people of

different backgrounds. But if you're asking me to look at you differently or value you differently based on the color of your skin, then yeah, I'm not going to do that. And God's not going to either, quite frankly, no matter what color your skin is. We are all, each of us, made in his image. End of story. And that's it. That's what the Bible says. That's where I land on all of this, on this critical race theory, this, I'm going to pitch you against this person, the oppressed versus the unoppressed or the oppressed versus the oppressor. No, I'm not going to do that because the gospel rids us of grievance. The gospel does not allow us, does not allow us to say, here's what you owe me. And once you pay me this, once you pay me this, then we can be reconciled. Then we can repair this relationship.

You know what God says to people who look at their fellow man and say, you owe me this? You owe me this, especially for something that happened 150 years ago, like people are asking when they ask for racial reparations. just you know what God says? He says, are you kidding me? Do you know what you owed me? And I paid it for you on the cross? Because all of you, no matter what the color of your skin is, you were all in the same place. And none of you owe anyone, anything, except to love one another. That's what the Bible says. You owe me everything. And I paid that debt for you. And so your only responsibility is to love one another and to forgive one another. That does mean eradicating racism. That does mean eradicating injustice where you can, where it is based on truth, where it is based on actuality,

and not just some subjective standard of social cosmic justice that can't actually be actuated in real life. So, anyway, that's my whole story. I told myself I was going to finish in an hour and we're almost there. I hope you guys have a great rest of your day and I'll see you Wednesday. Hey, this is Steve Deast. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political.

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