Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 960 | Unraveling Cru’s Troubling LGBTQ Curriculum

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

Starting point is 00:00:19 We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Campus Crusade for Christ, also known as crew, continues to wrestle over divisions because of its controversial and very troubling, mandatory gender and sexuality curriculum. We've got all the details on that today on this episode of Relatable, which is. is brought to you by our friends at Goode Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use code Alley at checkout.

Starting point is 00:01:02 That's good ranchers.com. Code Alley. Hey guys, welcome to relatable. Happy Thursday. Hope everyone is having a wonderful week. Go back and listen to yesterday's episode or watch it on YouTube. If you haven't already, it was such a good wellness Wednesday, talking about hormones and how we can eat to optimize our hormone health

Starting point is 00:01:32 in different times of the year, different times of our cycle. women, very interesting conversation, probably more specifically for the related gals yesterday, but go listen to that. So many of you have told me that what she shared about birth control in particular, how it affects even who we are attracted to, that that just blew your mind. And it helped you a lot. So go listen to. Go watch that. If you haven't already, we've got some other very interesting wellness Wednesdays coming up soon that I know you guys are going to enjoy. One more announcement before we get into it.

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Starting point is 00:02:35 and both of them know so much about church history and the differences between Protestantism and Catholicism. You guys are going to learn so much from this two-hour conversation that is only available for Blaze subscribers. If you go to BlazeTV.com slash Allie, you can use My Code Alley for $30 off your subscription. You'll have access to all kinds of content that is just for Blaze subscribers. Go to BlazeTV.com slash Allie and use code Allie for that. All right. Let's go ahead and get into it. I want to talk about crew and their sexuality curriculum. Crew Campus Crusade for Christ is an organization, a Christian organization that has been on campuses across the country and has also launched evangelism efforts around the world now for decades. And they

Starting point is 00:03:28 were recently caught sharing to their staff, certain person. perspectives on gender and on sexuality that are not actually biblical. They are culturally popular, but they are not Christian in any sense. And we covered this after Dr. Rosaria Butterfield, whom we have had on this podcast, called Out Crew in a speech that she gave to Liberty University several weeks ago. That was a relatable episode 908. So you can go listen to that if you want to hear some of her talk and hear our analysis of it. But on the Vibbent she said in front of this 10,000 person audience at Liberty that organizations like crew, people like Preston Sprinkle are spreading a lie about homosexuality and about so-called gender identity that is deceiving young people in particular into thinking that there is some kind of extra-biblical third way to approach the issue. issue of gender and sexuality. And so we wanted to dive into it ourselves and to see what was actually specifically being taught to crew staff. We think that you have a right to know that. If your kid is

Starting point is 00:04:50 a part of crew, they're a college student or you know someone who is a working with crew, it's very important to know what is going on behind the scenes. And the curriculum that we cited in our previous episode was, or rather the points made from crew that we cited in our last episode, they were from a curriculum that was only available to crew staffers. So some of you tried to look online and find it yourself, but we were able to gain access to this staff member only content. And we got to see what was actually being taught to members of crew. And we will go into some of that today.

Starting point is 00:05:29 and we have new developments now that are being reported about what crew is actually doing in the way of gender and sexuality. So just to recap in 2021, crew started developing its new sexuality training called Compassionate and Faithful to Help Equip Staff to navigate challenges around the LGBTQ issues. Now, the other reason why this matters, this isn't just like a random tiny organization. This is a huge organization. They have a huge impact on the next generation. of believers and how we approach these very important issues of the heart, mind, body, and soul. And so it's really important that we know the kinds of perspectives that are influencing

Starting point is 00:06:15 young people in the name of being compassionate and faithful Christians. Crew insists that it wants to meet the challenges that the LGBTQ issue brings while remaining faithful to the Bible, but some current and former crew staff of question crews reliance on prominent Christian voices like Preston Sprinkle, who advocate for a biblical sexual ethic, which means sexual activity reserved for one man and one woman within marriage, but also support professing Christians using LGBTQ labels as long as they remain celibate. So this position is often referred to as side B, which over the past few years has emerged as an alternative. alternative to side A, which argues that Bible supports monogamous same-sex marriage only.

Starting point is 00:07:05 Now, like I will say, just to give Preston Sprinkle some credit, he has been clear that the Bible only supports this kind of marriage. He will say that. And yet, he does advocate for some things like so-called pronoun politeness in the name of evangelism and compassion that neither I nor someone like Rosaria Butterfield would ever support. And the Bible is pretty clear that bearing false witness to someone is a sin. And that aiding and abetting someone's confusion and deception is not going to show them the cross of Christ. It's not going to show them the gospel. It's not going to ingratiate them in any way to Christianity because we are just affirming the thing that is actually harming them and killing them. So now more people are discussing this after Rosaria Butterfield called it out.

Starting point is 00:07:57 and after new details are now coming to light about what is really going on behind the scenes. An article in World Magazine is discussing these things. World Magazine is a Christian news outlet. I've written for them several times, a very trustworthy source. This article is by Mary Jackson, and it's titled Crew wrestles with divisions over sexuality. The article highlights the story of Uriah and Marissa Mundell. They've served in various roles at Crew for the last 12. 23 years. Uriah proposed during a crew mission trip. They adopted two of their five children from

Starting point is 00:08:32 regions around the world where they served through crew. And after completing a new sexuality training program mandated by crew, Uriah voiced objections. His boss said that he was arguing over semantics. So when he raised his concerns and he said, hey, I don't think that this curriculum that we are being forced to learn from that's telling us how to deal with sexuality and gender out in the world, I just don't think it's biblical. Well, his boss at Cruz said, you're arguing over semantics. And if you can't let it go, you'll just need to find another job. Wow. So this person wanting to actually be faithful to scripture raised his concerns and said, hey, I'm not so sure that this curriculum is in

Starting point is 00:09:20 alignment with scripture. And his boss said, okay, well, then you can leave. Wow. When Uriah told his supervisor that he couldn't support quote-unquote pronoun hospitality. That's pronoun politeness, same thing, what I just described to you a couple minutes ago that people like Preston Sprinkle advocate for. The supervisor said he wasn't being winsome. Winsomeness has unfortunately become an idol of some evangelicals who think that by being nice enough that a dying world that hates God will finally come to an understanding of and belief in the gospel. Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't ever be onesome and we should never be kind and we should never be persuasive and we shouldn't be effective communicators.

Starting point is 00:10:04 I obviously believe all of those things are very true, but very often winsomeness does become an idol because it is placed on a higher pedestal than being obedient to God. So in the name of winsomeness, we have to lie to people call a man, she, or a one. woman, he, in the name of winsomeness, we have to not be very truthful about what God says super clearly about gender and sexuality. The name of winsomeness, we basically have to publicly compromise even if we are privately obedient. That is this kind of idolatry of winsomeness that we are seeing growing in evangelicalism. And can it even be called evangelicalism if you are not evangelizing for the gospel? I'm not sure.

Starting point is 00:10:53 watching Rosaria Butterfield's comments at Liberty University brought both sadness for the ministry they loved and relief because Rosaria's theological objections mirrored their own so they felt, okay, I'm not alone. I'm not alone. Rosaria Butterfield, who has been very strong on this, has repented herself of believing in pronoun hospitality. She mirrored their concerns. So they felt validated in that. So there's more on this that I want to get into in just a second. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself.

Starting point is 00:11:37 On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. This is not the first time that crew has been accused of departing from its original mission and kind of leaving the Bible behind in its approach to cultural issues. For example, in 2021, crew closed its race ministry.

Starting point is 00:12:28 I don't even like that terminology. the Linz's Institute after a staff report revealed growing internal concern over the promotion of critical race theory. And we'll talk about that a little bit more later. But also, that's why Bree, producer Bree, she used to work for crew. That's part of why she left staff because of this concern that this completely unbiblical worldview was driving this Christian organization's view of an approach to the issue of race. ethnic divide and that is extremely troubling. Also, as we already noted in 2021, that's when crew started developing this new sexuality training that Rosaria Butterfield called out several

Starting point is 00:13:14 weeks ago, several months ago. Now, Mary Jackson interviewed Rosaria Butterfield for this article and Rosaria said that among other false teachings, crew and Preston Sprinkle, basically assert that same-sex attraction is a sinless temptation unless you act on it and that it's acceptable for Christians to call themselves gay as long as they are celibate and people with same-sex attraction rarely if ever change and sex and gender are different so God doesn't mind if men live as women in vice versa. Now I'm sure that Preston Sprinkle would take issue particularly with that last one. However, this is a very common mode of thinking within evangelicalism today. That same sex attraction is not a sinful temptation in itself and that it is not innately

Starting point is 00:14:19 disordered. It's only sinful when you act on it and that it's acceptable for Christians to call themselves gay as long as they are not actively sleeping with someone of the same sex. But here's the problem with that mentality, that desires are not, cannot be innately sinful or they cannot be innately disordered. If we go to Romans 1, and this is one of the most clear prohibitions of homosexuality in the Bible. Starting in verse 26. Actually, you could really, there's a lot of places you could start. Let's start. Yeah, let's start in verse 26. For this reason, God gave them up to dishonorable passions, to dishonorable passions. So the passion itself is dishonorable. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature and the men likewise gave up

Starting point is 00:15:24 natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. So yes, the passion itself, the desire itself is disordered. Now, does that mean that that person cannot be saved? Does that mean that that person cannot be sanctified? Does that mean that person can never struggle with those temptations or with those feelings. Look, all of us throughout our lives until we go to glory are going to struggle with sinful temptations and with sinful feelings and the desire to do something that is wrong, that is against God's commands, that is against God's order. But that doesn't mean that those desires or temptations are neutral or good

Starting point is 00:16:15 and telling someone to identify as gay or transgender just because it's all right if they're celibate is also not biblical. If we look at 1st Corinthians 611, for example, let's see. Let me do a little bit more context than I was originally going to do. One of the most difficult parts of my job is to continue talking. why I am also thinking about a particular scripture reference and looking it up on BibleGaithway.com, which is what I was just trying to do. All right. Let's start in verse 9 of 1 Corinthians 6. Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived.

Starting point is 00:17:08 Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor the greedy, nor drunkards nor revilers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of god and such were some of you and such were some of you but you were washed you were sanctified you were justified in the name of the lord jesus christ and by the spirit of our god that is good good news such were some of you you no longer identify by your disordered passions you no longer identify by your carnal desires. You are not a gay Christian. You are not a so-called trans Christian. You are a Christian if you have been saved by grace through faith,

Starting point is 00:17:57 who is taking up their cross on a daily basis for the power of the Holy Spirit. We are resisting any disordered or sinful desires. We are given the grace, the mercy, the love to be able to do so. but we do not identify by that which God calls disordered wrong and even an abomination. 2 Corinthians 517. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed. The new has come.

Starting point is 00:18:27 And actually, let me back up a little bit more. Verse 16 of 2 Corinthians 5. From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. We regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer therefore if anyone is in christ he is a new creation the oldest past behold the new has come all of this is from god who through christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation is that not better news than saying part of your identity is still stuck in the flesh is still stuck in your temptation is still stuck in your sin

Starting point is 00:19:04 how is that the gospel? How is that good news? The good news is that we are no longer a slave to our desires. They no longer define us. So, I mean, crew unfortunately, has fallen into this trap that so many other churches, pastors, Christian organizations have fallen into that compassion equals affirmation of sin. That in order to be empathetic, in order to be loving, we have to affirm even slightly, even partly someone's sin to try to get them to finally one day see the good news of the gospel that comes to comes with repentance. But that's not what's going on here. What's going on here is that you are actually enabling someone to stay stuck in their past and to stay stuck in the enslavement of their sin. Remember what Romans 2 tells us that it is God's kindness that

Starting point is 00:19:56 leads us to repentance. God's kindness doesn't lead us to the affirmation of sin. It's God's kindness that leads us to repentance. So, continuing in this World Magazine article, crew has not responded to Butterfield's allegations, even as it has taken steps behind the scenes to clarify its position and tweak its training materials in response. When contacted for an interview on this topic, Patrick Martin, Cruz, Director of Communications, told the reporter in an email that the organization would not participate in interviews on the topic. There are a number of issues surrounding sexuality and gender that we feel are best addressed in the context of relationships.

Starting point is 00:20:43 And so they're not willing to just be very clear and say, we believe that God's Word is sufficient. We believe that God's word is good enough. I mean, that's a very clear statement. And I think a really good message would be, we believe that God's Word is the most compassionate response that we can give to these very complicated and personal issues of sexuality and gender. And we are doing everything we can to ensure that every single form of every single bit of material and content and curriculum that we have, both public and privately for our staff aligned with God's Word. By withholding from an entire generation, Rosaria Butterfield says, the opportunity to repent and mortify a sin while it is still small, we have set them up to be clobbered by their sin when it is large. And of course, I agree with that commentary on some of the wavering stances that Crew apparently has on gender and sexuality. So I would just want to give you some specific examples of what's going on behind the scenes at Crew.

Starting point is 00:21:49 This is not hyperbole. I don't wish to take down campus crusade for Christ at all. I want them to be strong in the Lord and the strength of his might. I want them to continue to do great work. I know that there are great people at Crew. Crew is a huge organization. There are people there who love the Lord, who take his word seriously, who have a right and righteous view of gender and sexuality and all of these different topics. And so I don't want it to sound like I'm trying to indict an entire organization. I don't want it to sound like I'm just trying to tear them down. No, I want them to actually do the good work that God has called them to do. They cannot do that if they are not relying on God's word. Because what it tells me about true, some of the people there, some of the people in charge,

Starting point is 00:22:36 is that they don't actually believe that God's word is compassionate enough, that they, like so many Christians have been deluded into thinking this, that they really have to let God off the hook, that God's word is a little bit too harsh. It's. It's, It's a little bit too black and white. It's a little bit too clear that we, oh, compassionate and wise and merciful Christians, we have to kind of do PR for God. So we have to soften it a little bit. We have to caveat it and nuance it beyond what the Bible actually says to make it more palatable to the world.

Starting point is 00:23:06 As if we live in this unique time where all the sudden God's anerrant word is insufficient, where all the sudden the gospel is just a little bit too harsh, where all the sudden there is a unique distaste for a message of repentance. Look, people have always loved their sin. They've always loved to follow their flesh. We all were that. Such were some of you. We were all at one point dead in our sin apart from Christ, as Ephesians 2 tells us. So we can all relate to that. No one likes to be told that what you're doing is wrong and it's even, I think, more difficult when it comes to issues of gender and sexuality because it sounds like, it sounds like from their perspective, you're saying, who you are is wrong, who you are, who you love, how you feel you genuinely are,

Starting point is 00:24:02 that is wrong. And so actually Christians, like those in crew who are doing this, are doing a disservice to those people by affirming that enslaving message. that yeah, this is who you are. This is your identity. Another great resource on this, in addition to Rosaria Butterfield, is Christopher Juan. We've had him on a couple times,

Starting point is 00:24:23 and he really has helped me think through this. As I talk about this, the beauty and the freedom, the liberation that comes with separating someone's sexual feelings from their identity. That is such a freeing detachment that the gospel gives us, and we place burdens in a head. heavy yoke on someone by actually encouraging the attachment of identity to sinful feeling. So

Starting point is 00:24:50 that's where crew is getting it wrong. We'll get into to the specifics of what they're telling their people in just a second. So here are some highlights from the curriculum. This is via that world article and also some crew staff resources. Now, this is an internal document, but it has now been leaked and I think rightfully so by people who are concerned. And remember, like, crew is sustained by donations. So the people who are donating to crew, they need to know what is being taught to the staff that they are paying for. And they should not be donating to an organization that is not teaching the Bible when it comes to these topics. So here's what it reads. Here's some of the guidelines. As followers of Christ, we want to navigate

Starting point is 00:25:49 LGBT plus questions in a way that is compassionate toward people. our posture and faithful to scripture our position. That, of course, I agree with. And that's, you know, how a lot of these curricula typically start out by saying something that everyone agrees with. And then you just assume that everything thereafter is going to align with that statement. And you kind of start questioning yourself. Well, they said they want to stay faithful to scripture. They say they want to be compassionate to people. Maybe if I disagree with this, I'm not compassionate to people or I'm not faithful to scripture. And so it's very, it's effective.

Starting point is 00:26:25 It's an effective kind of rhetorical tactic, I think, to say, we're saying faithful and compassionate because every Christian, of course, can agree with that. So training addresses questions such as, what does it mean to follow Christ faithfully if I experience same-sex attraction or gender dysphoria? And is it possible to warmly invite people in the LGBT plus community to consider Christ while remaining faithful to the teaching of scripture on sexuality? In one of the seven modules, there's a crew intern that described breaking off a same-sex relationship as she took her obedience to God more seriously, emphasizing the need to create

Starting point is 00:27:01 a space of vulnerability and humility. She said equating same-sex attraction to sin and speaking judgmentally against those in the LGBT-plus community doesn't prove conducive to sharing the gospel with non-believers, especially those who are in same-sex relationships. So what she's saying basically is that you cannot share the truth with someone who is same-sex attracted if you want to share the gospel with them. Equating same-sex attraction to sin, she's saying is wrong. And speaking judgmentally against those in the LGBT-plus community, I don't even like

Starting point is 00:27:43 LGBT-plus community. I try to do whatever I can not to use that language. I'm not saying I've been perfect on it. but that is secular language that doesn't really give us a clear indication or biblical indication of what we're really talking about because they're not a community. I think that actually makes it seem a lot more palatable and, again, more like innate part of their identity than what is actually true. It's not conducive to sharing the gospel with nonbelievers. Now, here's what I'll say. I am not in favor of if you see a gay person that doesn't know the Lord, I don't think that the

Starting point is 00:28:18 first order of business is to tell them that homosexuality is a sin. That's not the highest priority because that person who is living an active homosexual lifestyle, if they are, who is not a believer, and obviously those two things go hand in hand, but the most important thing, the most important thing is that they repent of their non-belief. That's the first order of business. The first order of business is that their beliefs are disordered. Their first order of business is that they do not believe in the gospel, and that needs to change. That is the highest priority. The highest priority is not that they become straight. The highest priority is not even that they renounce their homosexuality. We trust the power of the Holy Spirit, the truth of God's word, is going to sanctify us of these

Starting point is 00:29:11 sinful desires, but the most important thing, yes, in building a relationship with a non-believer is to share the gospel with them. That does include conversations about sin and holiness and repentance, absolutely, but we just have to make sure that we have our priorities in line. The most important thing is that that person believes that by grace through faith, they must be made alive in Christ. So that I can understand. But what she is saying is that it is wrong ever to equate homosexual desire with sin. When again, as we already read in Romans 1, that is a dishonorable, sinful passion. And to say that it's not really actually puts a burden on someone.

Starting point is 00:30:02 Here's what how Denny Burke comments on this belief, and I thought that this was really good. He's an author, professor of biblical studies at Boyce College. He said, the circumstances are going to dictate that you can't not have a position when a kid comes to you and says, I feel same-sex attraction. He says, you're either going to tell him that his same-sex attraction is an expression of the sinful nature that by God's grace can be mortified. Or you are going to tell him, which seems to be Cruz's position, that he doesn't need to be concerned about same-sex attraction or feel guilt over it so long as it's not acted upon. I'm not sure that that is sustainable. To tell a kid, yeah, this is who you are. This is how you are born.

Starting point is 00:30:44 You can't change this about yourself. This is the one sin that God is not powerful enough to sanctify you of. And this sin is totally fine. Or this desire is totally fine, rather. It's completely neutral and then not expect them to follow that. That doesn't make sense. If the desire is not bad, then why would it be wrong for someone to pursue it? that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Starting point is 00:31:10 That creates a lot of dissonance in a person. Again, I think that that idea, that same-sex attraction is not sinful, but acting upon it is sinful. I actually think that creates a really heavy burden for people who struggle with this kind of attraction. This training also includes 13 videos from President Sprinkle, who was also singled out by Butterfield in her address at Liberty. He has written several books.

Starting point is 00:31:35 Sprinkle has written several books on LGBTQ issue. He has a podcast called Theology in the Raw runs the Center for Fate Sexuality and Gender. He has kind of been a proponent of this Side B theology, as we explained earlier. In one Q&A session referenced in the crew material from his digital leaders forum videos, Sprinkles said he thinks someone can still be a Christian, even if he or she holds to an affirming view of same-sex marriage. I would say being same-sex attracted while being a part of. of one's fallen nature is not a morally culpable sin that one needs to repent for.

Starting point is 00:32:14 Gosh, that makes me sad. He added during a separate podcast on November 27th. Wow. So I'm wondering again, so what other desires do we not need to pray to be sanctified from? Does that mean that pride, feelings of pride are not a sin? feelings of self-sufficiency? Does that mean lust is not a sin? Like we see throughout Jesus's ministry, that was what he doubled down on while he was here, is saying it's not enough just to follow the law by the letter. It's not enough to just do these things. It's really about what goes on in the heart.

Starting point is 00:32:57 So it's not enough, he said, not to commit adultery. You also can't have any lust in your heart. If you have lust in your heart, then you've committed adultery already, Jesus said. It's not enough, not just to not murder someone. If you have anger in your heart towards someone, you have murdered him already. So it is actually the ministry of Jesus that takes the law and takes our behavior to another level by saying, no, it actually starts here. This is where repentance starts. That is where Jesus begins to free us from sin. It's not just about legalism.

Starting point is 00:33:39 It's not just about our outward behavior. It starts with these desires that Jesus says, I want you to kill those sinful desires. I want you to be able to resist that temptation starting in the heart, starting in the mind. The God who created us, the God who sent his son to die for us because he loves us so much, He says that sin and disordered and dishonorable desires start in here. Yet we think that we can be more compassionate than God by saying, no, that's not a sin that you need to mortify.

Starting point is 00:34:12 That's not a sin that you need to repent of. You would rather someone be enslaved to the sin inside their heart and mind than then be free of it through the power of the Holy Spirit. That's what's being told here. This is a man-made gospel that is only going to lead people. into more sadness and to more misery. And it's being done, of course, in the name of love and compassion. Sprinkle in his center, along with a re-voice conference, very problematic conference, have helped proliferate this side.

Starting point is 00:34:44 Be theology, especially in non-denominational churches. And again, they use LGBTQ labels such as gay Christian. And again, the reason why this is relevant is because Preston Sprinkle, and a lot of his resources are relied upon in the crew curriculum that they are disseminating to their staff members. Crew also allows leeway for staffers to use this label, quote unquote, gay Christian. The compassionate and faithful curriculum presents two opposing viewpoints in one paper, Rachel Gilson. A former lesbian who is now married to a man and serves as director of theological development for Crew Northeast, explains why she chooses the term same-sex attracted to describe her, quote,

Starting point is 00:35:29 unquote inner pulls. And another Greg Cole's an author and senior research fellow at Sprinkles's organization describes why he refers the label gay to describe his experience even as he has chosen celibacy. Again, I think scripture makes clear the verses that we've already referenced that we should not be identifying by our carnal, sinful, abominable desires, not just people who have a temptation to be attracted to the same sex, but all of us, they go on to say if somebody wants to identify as gay, and that's a turn that's helpful for them and it makes sense of their experience, then I'm okay with that. Preston, Sprinkle, says, is that our standard? What makes sense to someone? What makes sense with their experience? What they say is helpful for

Starting point is 00:36:20 them or do we identify how scripture tells us to identify once we have been once we have a died to our sin and taken up our cross and followed Christ? Again, what good news that we no longer have to identify by our sin or our sinful desires that is such good news. All right, we've got some more on this, including about pronouns, pronoun politeness and things like that. And so we were actually able to get some access into the curriculum that is available to cruise staffers to verify some of the commentary that we're seeing from people like Rosaria Butterfield, seeing reported in places like World Magazine. And so here is some more from compassionate and faithful navigating LGBTQ plus questions and

Starting point is 00:37:07 ministry cruise curriculum. Let me just show you some screenshots here. We've got this person that was interviewed. This is from one story in the training series. If you notice what's called the lower thirds, this is crew. This is crew labeling these people, giving them this label. So we have one person. They have her name and then under it, it says transgender.

Starting point is 00:37:35 This person is wearing a cross necklace. This person is wearing cross earrings. And then you've got another person. And her lower third label says same sex. attracted cisgender female. So that's the part that I really, I am shocked that they are using that language. cisgender. Do you know that that term cisgender was created by an autogynophilic pervert several decades ago? That is not language that any Christian needs to use. Not only because of its foundation and where it actually comes from, I mean, that is part of

Starting point is 00:38:15 queer theory, which is demonic ideology that is anti-Christian in every sense, but also just without even knowing any of that, there's no such thing as cisgender. Christians know that. I mean, scientifically that's true, but biblically that's true. There's no such thing as cisgender. There's no such thing as transgender. That's a problem with these labeling is you are affirming these wrong ideas about gender. The Christian knows there are two categories. There are two categories. that you can fall into. Male or female. And no intersex, which are disorders, have nothing to do with transgenderism.

Starting point is 00:38:55 They have nothing to do with gender at all. These are disorders that actually still affect either a male or a female. They have nothing to do with someone identifying as the opposite sex. It's a completely different conversation and category and a part of living in a fallen world. that yes, there are sometimes anomalies and disorders. They don't have anything to do with someone's stated identity. And so basically, Cruz affirming this idea that gender and sex are different, that you can have a sex that you might have been born with,

Starting point is 00:39:26 but that how you identify is your gender. And that could be the same as your sex. That could be different than your sex. If it's different than your sex, then you are transgender. If it's the same as your sex, then it's cisgender. That's not what the Bible teaches. The Bible is very clear. And actually it was so important to God that it was,

Starting point is 00:39:42 in the creation account. And the very first chapter of the first book of the Bible, Genesis 1.27, God created them in his image, male and female. He created them. He could have just said he created people. He could have just said he created man, but he designated male and female. He created us with purpose and with intention.

Starting point is 00:40:08 In his image, he created us male and female. Those are the only two categories that we have. Now, I know there's a debate. Is there such thing as gender? No, some people say there's no such thing as gender. It's only sex. Look, I'm okay with this term gender. If you look at the etymology of gender, it's not like it was founded in queer theory or

Starting point is 00:40:31 modern progressive speak. It's just that sex and gender are interchangeable. They're the same, this idea that you can identify as something other than what you biologically are. That's wrong. That's completely unscientific. That's pseudo-religious, Gnostic nonsense that has no place in Christian curriculum, has no place in the Christian worldview at all. If we stand for anything, as Christians, we must stand for truth. We have to stand for clarity. We owe the world that. In a culture of chaos and confusion, the church must be a refuge of clarity and courage. And that starts with the language.

Starting point is 00:41:11 that we use. You know, the words that we use as Christians, they're so important. That's why we are an evangelistic faith. We're not like the Buddhists who prize silence. No, we are told in the Great Commission to go out and make disciples of all nations. We are inherently word-based, evangelistic faith. And so it matters the words that we use, the language that we use. We've been given the word of God as our guide. Jesus is the word made flesh that dwelt among us. It matters what words we use as Christians. We're not always going to get it right. It's not always going to be perfect, but our words should be in alignment with what God's word says. You don't need to be using things like cisgender. And even when I say, I very rarely, I'm so, I try to be so careful

Starting point is 00:42:05 about this. I don't call someone transgender. I might say someone who calls themselves transgender or someone who is pretending to be the opposite sex or someone who thinks they're the opposite sex or someone who identifies as transgender. But I'm very big on the scare quotes and the so-called and the quote-unquote because I just want to be very clear that these are not real concepts that are based in reality or based in the Bible. Okay. So that's part of the curriculum. Okay. So when it comes to same sex, attraction. Under the section regarding the fall, crew lists 15 different forms of sexual brokenness, including same-sex sexual relations, but does not include same-sex attraction. So somehow, I wish someone would like square that circle for me, somehow the desire is okay,

Starting point is 00:43:08 but the manifestation of that desire is not. I'm still just not totally sure how an apparently neutral. Is there such thing as a neutral desire? A neutral desire, because they probably wouldn't say a good desire, but a neutral desire can somehow lead to, can be, all of a sudden becomes sin when it is actually acted upon. Sexual brokenness takes many forms. They say pornography, sexual addiction, sexual objectification, sexual violence, I believe in all of that. They say prostitution, polyamory, adultery, premarital or casual sex, same-sex sexual relations, sexual neglect of a spouse or sexual apathy in marriage, and they go on and on. And here's what's interesting.

Starting point is 00:43:54 You know what they do here? They say lust and sexual fantasy. So sometimes sexual desires can be disordered. Sometimes it does start in the mind and the heart apparently, and sometimes that is sinful. but not when it comes to same-sex attraction. So if someone is just attracted to, actively attracted to, or thinking about someone who is not their spouse, that is categorizes less, not just thinking that that person is pretty or something like that, but thinking about them in a sexual way, that is considered. lust and sinful, but another kind of feeling and desire that the Bible says is dishonorable and disordered apparently isn't. So specifically about same-sex attraction, here's what crew is saying.

Starting point is 00:44:52 On the one hand, we must recognize that same-sex attraction is contrary to God's design for human sexuality. Okay. It represents the disordering of sexual desire in our fallen condition, yes, and is neither morally neutral nor morally good. Okay. On the other hand, from a pastoral perspective, it is also important to distinguish the experience of same-sex attraction from acting on it in thought, word, or deed. Some of us have spent hundreds of hours praying for God to remove these attractions to no avail. And some of us have experienced such animosity from other Christians that it has felt like we were not welcome in God's family. Compassion must go hand in hand with theological clarity, which I don't even disagree with that. I don't disagree that there are many Christians who or many people who have tried to pray away their homosexual desires and that that must feel very alienating and isolated and must be difficult and they probably have been mistreated in some way by people who profess to be Christians and that's wrong.

Starting point is 00:45:52 And so I'm glad for them to say that that sexual desire is disordered, that it's not morally neutral or more. morally good. But at the same time, there is such reticence and avoidance and other parts of this curriculum for crew to say that it is actually sinful. And I think that they seem to contradict themselves throughout this curriculum by having someone like Preston Sprinkles say that, well, I'm not so sure that we can call that kind of attraction, that kind of orientation, that kind of desire sin, while also saying at the same time, well, it actually is disorder. So again, we're just adding to and compounding the confusion that the world is already given us. Brie, I don't know if you have anything to say about the apparent kind of contradictions that we're seeing here.

Starting point is 00:46:45 That on the one hand, it does sound like they're trying to say, yeah, this is disorder. This is not good. But at the same time, we need to distinguish between the desire and the acting upon it. Yes, there is a difference in, you know, thinking about something. and then not actually doing it, resisting the temptation. So there is some good there. But at the same time, they've got someone like Preston Sprinkles saying, I'm not so sure if I can say that's a sin.

Starting point is 00:47:09 Yeah. What confuses me, I think, is where they draw the line. Because later in this, it says dwelling on immoral sexual thoughts or acting on them is sin. But at one point, is it dwelling on them versus they never make a distinction. There's never a line at which when does it become sin then, if you're saying it's not sin to begin with. And so it's just confusing, I think, overall, which is not helpful for crew staff who clearly want some answers and clarity on issues like this because they're important. And I think that's one of my biggest issues with this, is this doesn't help at all.

Starting point is 00:47:50 It hurts a lot because it's confusing. Yeah. And I will. Okay, I'll give the devil's advocate position here, like in defense of them. That. that maybe, it's hard for me to do this, but maybe they're saying, okay, someone who does not dwell on their desires, they're not lusting, they're not having fantasies about these kinds of relations. They're not acting on these relations. They are doing everything they can to sanctify themselves with the word of God. They are doing everything they can to be disciplined. But they just find that they think one sex is more attractive than the other.

Starting point is 00:48:28 The same sex is more attractive than the other sex. They don't want to feel that way, but they do feel that way, but they are committed to aligning themselves with God's word. I can understand that. I still think it's wrong to say that the attraction itself is not disordered because, again, I think that helps someone identify as something that is disordered. It helps them say, well, that is neutral. That's fine.

Starting point is 00:48:55 That's okay. when really we do need to recognize it as something that is wrong. But I can understand, I don't know if you agree, Bree, and can give your opinion if you want to, but I can understand that. And I don't think they're making it clear. I think I'm kind of like letting them off the hook a little bit. They're trying to say someone might be naturally drawn to the same sex, but they truly are doing everything to submit every thought and desire that they have to the,

Starting point is 00:49:26 obedience of Christ. They just happen to be drawn to the same sex over the other. That person they're trying to say is not necessarily in sin because of that. Maybe that's what they're trying to say. I think giving them the benefit of the doubt that would be exactly what they're trying to say. I think they're doing a terrible job at it like you said, though. Yeah. And again, using the language of like the secular left of cisgender, transgender, gay Christian, that's where the contradiction comes. Like, is it sin that we have to die to or not? That's really what it comes down to.

Starting point is 00:50:02 I can appreciate nuance where it's needed and obviously compassion and a pastoral lens and building relationships and having those conversations. But it has to be always through the lens of truth and wanting this person to be free of their sin and, yes, sinful desires. I do think that we can say, look, like the Christian life is grace-filled. struggle against sin. But I just don't want us to minimize the importance of dying to our sin, no matter how innate and tied to our identity, they may feel. Okay, so they talk about also preferred names, preferred pronouns. And they give a variety of positions again. They say position

Starting point is 00:50:47 one is that we should never use preferred names or pronouns in evangelism. I definitely feel that way about pronouns that we should never call a man, she, or a woman, he, not to be purposely offensive, but because we believe that God is good and God created them purposely a particular way. I don't feel as strongly about names, although I have kind of become less lenient on that in recent years. I've seen people make the good point. Well, you know that a man is not called Caitlin. And so it is also kind of lying. But I don't know. There's, I think that there actually could be some discussion on that. I think I've heard John Piper make that position that, yeah, you might be able to call someone by their name because that's arbitrary or you could say

Starting point is 00:51:43 that it's arbitrary, but the pronouns are not. The pronouns are linked to a biological reality. So then they say there's position two that we should never use, okay, what I just explained, we should never use preferred pronouns. It may be acceptable to use someone's preferred name. Position three used a preferred pronouns is acceptable but not required. In evangelism, they say proponents of this position take seriously the reality that a person's experience of being welcomed and respected is an important aspect of sharing the gospel with them. Effectively, this position seeks to meet the lost right where they are. Tell me how you really feel, crew.

Starting point is 00:52:15 Just as when each of us encountered Christ. But Christ didn't say, I'm going to meet you right where you. are and affirm your sin, I'm going to meet you right where you are. And you know what, Matthew? Yeah, you should have, you should have taken too many, too much money from those people as a tax collector. I totally get why you do that. Let me just validate your greed a little bit, Matthew. That's all what he did. He called Matthew to repentance. He calls his disciples to repentance. And they immediately turned from the sinful things that they were doing and began to live for Christ. That's the power of the gospel. That's what he can do. So we don't need to affirm the very

Starting point is 00:52:59 sin that is killing someone and could be leading them down a path of bodily mutilation in order to ingratiate them to Christ. And then position, let's see, I thought that was position four. Okay, no, position four is we should always use preferred pronouns in evangelism. They say, they claim that this is a valid position that can be held by sincere Christians, that we should always use preferred pronouns in evangelism. So they're not like saying one is right, one is wrong. They're saying that these are totally fine. If you want to always use preferred pronouns,

Starting point is 00:53:41 if you want to always call a man she for the purpose of evangelism, that you can do that. This position says it's always loving and appropriate to use someone's preferred pronouns. A challenge of using someone's preferred pronouns or name is that you may unintentionally communicate a position that crew does not hold and scripture does not teach, which would be that it's fine to identify as the opposite sex. Crew doesn't believe that it's just fine to identify as the opposite sex, to be fair. A challenge of not using someone's preferred name or pronouns is that this may put a barrier between you and them, offending them and limiting your ability to gain a relationship

Starting point is 00:54:14 or share Christ. Look, I do think that it can be offensive, understandably so. But, like, I I can tell you from experience, I can tell you from personal experience that speaking the truth in love, both of those things are important. Both of those things must be there. Can't absolutely change someone's heart and mind. I think about sweet Daisy Strongen. We just talked about her recently who sat on this couch and told us that God used this podcast to help change her mind on transgenderism. And you know we don't mince words when it comes to that. And I'm not saying everyone has to speak exactly like I do on the subject, but I do think that we owe image bearers of God truth and that God absolutely uses his word and uses the truth

Starting point is 00:55:04 to change hearts and minds. And that I think affirming someone's deception is, again, it's just placing a greater burden on them. And so basically, this kind of reminds me of, you know, like when you get on a plane nowadays, how they say like masks are not required, but whether you choose to wear a mask or not, be respectful of your neighbor's choices. It kind of reminds me of that. That's basically what crew is doing here, that if you want to lie to someone and use their preferred pronouns in the name of evangelism, that's fine. If you don't, that's fine too. The Bible really does it afford us those options,

Starting point is 00:55:45 though, as Rosario Butterfield has so clearly laid out for us, as she has repented publicly. She used to believe in pronoun politeness too. She used to be of that mind. And she realized that she was basically believing that the gospel wasn't good enough. And far be it from us to believe that. Also, an internal document that previously said that using someone's preferred name and pronouns is an issue of conscience now lists four positions on the preferred pronoun.

Starting point is 00:56:17 So things have changed after Rosaria Butterfield's address. In response to the updates Butterfield noted that the organization's quiet change in tone and tune, but that the changes stopped short of calling same-sex attraction sin. And if you don't know who Dr. Rosaria Butterfield is, like she lived as a lesbian in a committed relationship for years of her life. She was a professor of queer theory before she became a Christian. And she became a Christian. And of course, she renounced her unbelief in Christ. and then he sanctified her into letting go of that relationship that she knew was not of God and didn't align with his word.

Starting point is 00:56:56 And now she has such a powerful voice for the gospel, such a powerful voice for hospitality of speaking the truth and love. And I'm just so thankful for her courage on this. And so I trust her. I trust her. I trust her. I trust her for Yuan. I trust Beckett Cook, all of these people who once were in this category of sexual immorality when it came to homosexual relations. who are so clear on what God's word says, not just about same-sex behavior, but also the desire underneath it. And I just want to remind you that God absolutely can save anyone, that no one is too

Starting point is 00:57:32 far off, no one has too strong of desires, no one has too innate of an orientation or too fixed of an identity for God to save them through the power of Christ. That that gospel is a very very available to you. It doesn't matter what you've been through, what's been done to you, or what you have done. God can absolutely save you. And that is good news. And he can rid you of the burden of your sin because Jesus's burden is light and his yoke is easy. And that is the message that we need to be preaching to lost people of all different kinds of stated identities and desires. Okay, I'm going to get some of Bree's commentary on this in just a second as someone who worked for Crew for a long time and then we'll close this out. All right, Bree.

Starting point is 00:58:37 So you kind of saw when you left Crew the organization going in what seems like a leftward secular perspective, in particular when it came to race, right? Yeah. Yeah, I was overseas, so I wasn't quite as involved in, well, I didn't know what was happening. And that is one issue with crew is a lot of this is seeping in and a lot of staff don't even know it. I posted this World article on my Instagram and I had crew staff sending me messages like, thank you for posting this. I didn't know this was happening. Wow.

Starting point is 00:59:10 Which is sad because only the U.S. staff are required to do this sexuality curriculum as far as I know. I wouldn't have been overseas. So you just wouldn't know that it was happening at all. But CRT has been a big thing that's been seeping in to crew. It still is, I believe, even though they've walked it back a little bit due to outlast. So basically the belief that white people are on the side of the privileged and that black and brown people are on the side of the oppressed and the marginalized always. Yeah, they had a curriculum or I'm not sure exactly what it was a class called the Lenses Institute that they've now shut down. But it cited white fragility by Robin DiAngelo.

Starting point is 00:59:49 It cited Ibermax Kendi. That was part of that curriculum. and it was meant to teach white people or the majority how to do evangelism in communities of color. So, and that's just sort of a posture that crew has adopted. I've seen it at crew conferences where they invite certain speakers that will perpetuate some of these things. And also just them getting in trouble over and over again with staff coming to them and saying, we don't want this as part of crew. sometimes they listen but most of the time they don't.

Starting point is 01:00:25 And that's what I saw on staff as well. It was perpetually staff asking for reasoning as to why this was being put into crew curriculums and no one responding. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So you said that a lot of people were kind of opposing this. In November 2020, a grassroots group of crew staff members submitted a 176-page document to crew president, Steve Sellers, titled Seeking Clarity and Unity, raising concerns that a victim oppressor worldview had become embedded throughout the organization, dividing staff and detracting from the true gospel. And I just want to say, good job to the staff members raising a respectful ruckus about this. From the document, in pursuing diversity, we have inadvertently adopted a system of unbiblical ideas

Starting point is 01:01:13 that have led us to disunity. These concepts have created distrust, discouragement, and a host of other problems. This is an anti-CRT document that says at least 1,000 staff share the group's concerns of features dozens of staff and donor testimonials, though a majority of them are anonymous. According to Christianity today, since 2015, the ministry is placed a growing emphasis on cultural competency and racial reconciliation. Of course, cultural competency, this is another euphemism that's used, that is one thing, understanding that cultures are different and that peoples are different. And different communities are different. Some different ethnicities are different in some way. And so understanding the context, but not just when it comes to race, socioeconomic class, the states that people live in, the countries that people live in. Okay, that's one thing. But telling white people basically, which is what white fragility and Ibraxcindi do, is that you have to come from a place of basically inferiority in order to reach people and underwemexicindy do, is that you have to come from a place of basically inferiority in order to reach people and underwifiscan

Starting point is 01:02:19 understand you're in eight privilege and you're basically oppressor status and that all these people are marginalized. Again, that is detached from reality. That's just not true that all white people are privileged and on the side of the oppressor and all black and brown people are on the other side. It's also just not a biblically accurate way to look at people. It's just not a biblically accurate way to look at people's melanin count, to look at people of different cultures that will not bring unity. So-called racial reconciliation, I think, has a faulty premise. We don't have, don't have time to get into all of this, but I've talked about it many, many times. As you said, Bree, they encouraged people to read White Fragility, How to Be Anti-Racist,

Starting point is 01:03:00 Reconstructing the Gospel by Jonathan Wilson Hargrove. I'm not familiar with that. The Color of Compromised by Jamar Tisbee, The Heart of Whiteness by Robert Jensen, how the Irish became white. Oh my goodness. Oh, my goodness. I mean, that is just left-wing, secular, anti-biblical nonsense. Mm-hmm. Wow. I'm just some commentary. Ari McIntyre. He's a fellow Blaze host. He said people who love to criticize the church for not standing up strongly enough against or even being complicit in some of the most terrible regimes in history. I have very little to say about it adopting the latest trends of our current totalitarian state. So true. So, so true. Such a good point. I mean, that's basically what a lot of these books are about is that the church didn't stand up enough against things like segregation. And.

Starting point is 01:03:49 didn't stand up enough against slavery, which, by the way, many, many Christians did stand up against those kinds of injustices. But they talk about that, but they don't talk about how Christians today fail to stand up to the regime that is literally mutilating children's bodies in and outside of the womb. So that's interesting. All right. I think that's all we have time to cover. I wanted to get into a bunch of the IVF stuff, politicians like Nikki Haley. Carrie Lake, Donald Trump, RFK Jr., all saying, oh my goodness, the Alabama ruling is so terrible

Starting point is 01:04:28 because it says embryos are human beings and therefore have a right not to be murdered. What does this mean for IVF? Oh, wait, why would this have an effect on IVF when it's just saying that we can't destroy embryos? Hmm. Well, you can go back and listen to last week's episode on the Alabama ruling.

Starting point is 01:04:46 We obviously don't have time today to get caught up on all of that, But we will be back here on Monday. Thanks so much for listening. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality.

Starting point is 01:05:24 We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 960 | Unraveling Cru’s Troubling LGBTQ Curriculum

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