Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - REPLAY: DEBATE: Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice Christian | Guest: Brandan Robertson

Episode Date: October 6, 2022

Today we're happy to welcome Pastor Brandan Robertson to the show to discuss and debate the issue of abortion. Brandan represents the pro-choice side of things and gives his thoughts on Roe v. Wade being overturned as well as what he thinks laws regarding abortion should look like. We end up debating the theological and scientific question of when life begins, and although things get a little intense at times, it's so important that Christians with differing views are able to come together for civil discussion and debate. Note: There are times in the conversation when Brandan tried to interject but his audio did not come through due to Skype settings. This was not intentional on our part. We pause halfway through the interview to fix this. --- Resources for anyone facing an unplanned pregnancy, looking for free & confidential options: Find a clinic near you: MyChoiceNetwork.org Need to talk to someone right now? Visit OptionLine.org or call 1-800-712-HELP or text 'HELPLINE' to 313131 anytime **You are not alone!** --- Show Links: Desiring God: "Ten Reasons Why It Is Wrong to Take the Life of Unborn Children" by John Piper: https://bit.ly/3w6totA QUIZ: How well do you understand Roe v. Wade? https://bit.ly/3OYlV8p ---- Previous Episodes Mentioned: Ep 113: What Can Christians Do About Abortion? | Guest: Virgil Walker https://apple.co/3OY2kFr Ep 141: Abortion https://apple.co/3LIvuq5 Ep 289: Trump vs. Biden 2020: Abortion https://apple.co/3w6mBQG Ep 310: Do Democrats Decrease Abortion? https://apple.co/390oLcM Ep 527: Healing From Abortion & Using Your Story for Good | Guest: Victoria Robinson https://apple.co/39yQukN Ep 594: The Pro-Choice Movement Takes Its Dying Breath | Guest: Lila Rose https://apple.co/3P32hZ6 Ep 610: If Roe Ends, the Fight Over Abortion Just Begins | Guest: Josh Hammer https://apple.co/3MWLNzB --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Thursday. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers, American Meat delivered right to your front door. Go to Good Ranchers.com slash All right, guys.

I've got an episode for you today, a fiery episode. I just recorded an interview, a debate with Brandon J. Robertson. He is a progressive. He calls himself a progressive Christian, a pastor of Metanoia Church. He calls himself a public theologian. Now, you might know his name and you might know his face and voice if you listen to this podcast or if you watch some of my videos on Instagram because I have reacted to a previous video that he did saying that Lazarus coming out of the tomb was Jesus calling gay people to

come out of the closet. And so that's who we're talking to today. He is pro-choice. And so we are debating abortion. Now, I would call that pro-abortion. He refers to himself as pro-choice. And so we had a very, you guys know how passionate I am about this subject. And so it did get very intense at times. But I am very appreciative of Brandon being willing to come on because most people that we ask, that conservative shows in general, ask to debate, especially the subject say no. He was very respectful. So guys, if you disagree with him, especially on YouTube, please leave respectful comments. There should be absolutely no ad hominem attacks. Be as respectful in your disagreement and your dialogue is possible. That's what we're looking

for. We can be very passionate. You will hear in this conversation. I get extremely riled up about the arguments that were being made. And that's fine. That's fine. But we should resist any kind of personal attacks because it's good that we have this kind of dialogue. Before we get into the conversation, I just want to address that a lot of you guys have been sending me messages over the past few days just with the ridiculous posts that your friends are sharing that you didn't even realize that your friends were pro-choice. You didn't realize that they supported abortion and the legal right to abortion. And they have been posting about women's rights and how scary this is and how terrible this is over the past few days. And you have asked me several times to respond

to the popular post that you are seeing circulated by Brunea Brown, by Glennon Doyle, by several other even professing Christian influencers. Or you have pointed out that a lot of your favorite female Christian influencers who are so quick to talk about social justice or police brutality, even alleged police brutality or what's happening at the border have nothing to say about abortion, even though they call themselves pro-life. And unfortunately, I have not been able to respond to every scene. single argument out there, every single post that you guys have sent me in every single message

over the past few days. This reminds me a lot of June of 2020 when a lot of your friends were posting things about race and police and social justice that were simply not backed up, either by biblical theology or by facts and data. And you guys were just asking me for help, for arguments for clarity and insanity because it kind of can feel like we're just going crazy when it feels like we are in the minority. I just want to encourage you guys with a few things. And I posted this on Instagram and I'll say it again here. In every conversation that you have with someone, what you can do if you don't know what to say, if you've never heard that argument before, just bring it back to the baby. Bring it back to what an abortion is. Every story that you hear,

every anecdote that you're offered, every argument, however nuanced and complex it is, bring it back to. But why is that a justification for? killing a human being. Now, what you will often hear, and you'll hear that, I don't want to give too much away, but you'll hear a lot of this conversation in today's discussion. What is a human? When does life begin? And look, science says conception. And so the question is, when does someone get rights? And if it's any time after conception, it becomes arbitrary, right? And arbitrary assignment of rights to certain groups of people based on the whims and desires of people and power have been the mark of every human rights atrocity from slavery to genocide for

all of history. And so just go back to the baby. Go back to this innocent human life that is being victimized. Go back to what the abortion procedure entails, which we have discussed so much. I will link some of my most popular abortion episodes in the description of this show. I've done, we've done so many, so many. So you can just look up, relatable abortion, wherever you listen to your podcast or on YouTube. They will all come up. We have addressed pretty much every argument under the sun when it comes to abortion. And the second thing that I want to say, for all of you who are dealing with these conversations and dialogue and debates and just anger, or maybe from some of your friends or family members who are on the other side of this,

I just want to encourage you that you're doing a good job. I have gotten so many messages saying, you know, because you listen to a relatable podcast or because we've talked about this so much or maybe you've listened to other pro-life advocates for a long time, you have felt the courage in a lot of cases for the first time to speak up on behalf of unborn children, to speak up on behalf of this vulnerable, class of people. And I just want to commend you for your courage. I just want to commend you for your boldness. And I want to tell you that even if the person's mind didn't change who you messaged,

who you talked to, who you texted with, that does not negate the significance of your obedience. All right? That does not negate or minimize in any way the significance of your obedience. You have no idea what seed that you have planted. You have no idea what God is going to do with that conversation. You have no idea what other conversations that person is having, how God is working in their heart and their mind. I mean, think about all of us in the different ways that we have changed our minds on theological or moral things since we became a Christian. Like, there are probably some faulty things that all of us believed a few years ago that we no longer believe. And it was a process. It was because of conversations. It was because of things we read. It was because of God working

on our hearts. So understand that. When you're having the conversations and the arguments that you're having that your job is to be obedient. Your job is to say what is true. Your job is to speak the truth in love about what abortion is. And God is sovereign over that person. Like God is in charge of changing that person's heart and mind ultimately. You are just playing a role. Your job is to be obedient. Your job is to be clear. Your job is to be courageous. Your job is to speak up for the person that is completely forgotten when it comes to pro abortion arguments. And that is the child that is being victimized, killed, slaughtered, dismembered because of abortion. If the church cannot stand up for this, if this is not an issue that the church can care about that we can't be clear on, then we have

completely dropped the ball. Because as we've talked about since the inception of Christianity, we have been a refuge for the most vulnerable, namely children, who have in a million different ways been victims of child sacrifice and exploitation almost since the beginning of human history. has to stand against that, including abortion. This is, this is a biblical issue. This is a Genesis one issue that we are made in his image. As R.C. Sproll has said, and I've said many times, if he knows anything about God, it's that God hates abortion. And let me just say, before we get into the conversation, I always want to reiterate this when I talk about just the wickedness and brutality of abortion, I just want to tell you that if you have had an abortion, if you are thinking

about an abortion right now, don't do this alone. I know it might feel lonely. You feel like your shame is crushing you, your fear, your anxiety, whatever, your guilt that is just tearing you apart on the inside because you're thinking about this or have already done this. Listen, you are no worse than any other sinner on earth, all right? You are no less of a candidate for God's grace and forgiveness and mercy and compassion than anyone else. Ephesians. Efficient, two says we are all dead in sin apart from Christ. There are not different levels of dead. We are all dead in sin apart from Christ. If you have had an abortion and it is a secret that has been weighing on your heart, you need to go to a pro-life pregnancy center, you need to go to someone

within your church, you need to go to a trusted Christian friend and tell them. Bring that to light. Let God heal you. Let God show you how good he is, how much he loves you, that he sent his son to die for that sin to cover it up to pay every single debt that we have every single sin that we have committed there is no sin too big too secret too dark too grave that god cannot forgive that jesus's blood does not cover there is hope for you and god can use your testimony your life as a testament to his grace and to help people and to show people who he is what he's done for you and to save the lives of other unborn children and to help women who are considering the same thing that you have done. And if you are a woman who is pregnant, you don't know how you're going to do it.

Maybe you're considering an abortion. There are people to help you. I want you to go to your local pro-life pregnancy center. You can look up pregnancy resource center in your area. I'll try to find a link that shows where these pregnancy resource centers exist. Message me if you can. I pray to God that I will see it and I will connect you to the right people that would not be the first time that that has happened behind the scenes. There will be no shame or judgment in our conversation.

I just want you to know that you are not alone. You are not alone. And there are options for you. And we will help you however we can. And so I just want to make sure that we have that. And look, if you are someone who is pro choice or you are someone who considers yourself pro abortion or maybe personally pro life or politically pro abortion, I hope that you will go back and listen to some abortion episodes that we've had or some or some of the conversation that we're about to have today and that you would reconsider your position. And remember that these are people made in the image of God that we're talking about and

we're talking about legally murdering them. This is a matter of life and death. And there's not really a question of which side Christian should be on. Of course, my guest today, he disagrees. And we will get into that fiery disagreement in a second. But I just kind of wanted to give some context and a precursor for all. of that. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe

is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for comment, grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed. You can watch this D-Day Show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.

Braden, thank you so much for joining us. And like I said, before the camera started rolling, for being willing to dialogue across the aisle about this important subject. So first, I'm just going to open it up to you. If you could just briefly kind of summarize why you consider yourself pro-choice, why you believe that abortion should be at least. option for women? Yeah, I think abortion is a morally complex issue. And one thing that I always have said about abortion is that I don't know any progressive

person that wants to see abortion increased. We all want to see it decreased. I think the question is about how we do that. And so I believe that there are many instances in which women should have the right to access abortion care. There are many instances, both from a faith perspective historically and from modern scientific perspective when about why women should have access to abortions and so I think overturning Roe v. Wade is an attempt to completely ban abortion in many states across this country and that's

a net negative that results in we know statistically women doing harm to themselves because they can't access healthy abortions you can't ban legal abortion or you can't ban abortion you can only ban legal abortions and so my whole point is I want to see abortions made available. And then through comprehensive sex education, through contraception, through other means, we can work on reducing abortions together. But I think overturning Robey Wade and banning abortion altogether is just not an effective way to deal with this issue.

Okay. So there's a lot in there that I want to address. First, I do think that it is incorrect to say that there is no one on the progressive side that believes that abortion is good. There was an article, a kind of infamous article. at least from my perspective in New York Magazine, which is a very mainstream outlet in 2019, titled Abortion is a moral good. I've testified before Congress and I heard the women next to me who consider themselves reproductive justice advocates who talk about not just that abortion is a necessary

evil, but that is actually good for society. It is good for women, especially economically. There's an organization called Shout Your Abortion, which has been touted by people like Oprah that is trying to destigmatize abortion. So, yes, there are many people on the progressive side that are not actually interested in reducing abortion. This whole trope of safe, legal, and rare, it might have been something that was popular in the Democratic Party 10, 15 years ago, even by the current president of the United States. That is not the current mission or the platform or the idea that is predominantly perpetuated on the left side. It is that abortion should be accessible without apology. for any reason through nine months and subsidized by the taxpayer.

So let's start there. That is the current position of the Democratic Party, that abortion is not evil, that it doesn't necessarily need to be reduced, but that it just needs to be accessed and even free. So I disagree. I think that what I think there are definitely extremes on both sides. I think there are extreme pro-life and pro-choice people that I as a Christian minister would disagree with. However, I do think the vast majority of Americans, the 70 percent, that support the right to access abortion, want to see abortions decreased through these other

means that I've named and that Democrats and progressives have been naming for many years. And I do think, yeah, you're right. Sure, there are people on the extremes who want to just say abortions for everyone up to nine months, I think that is a minority position. And I don't think you could find in the Democratic platform where that would be explicitly endorsed by any mainstream Democratic Party platform. I actually think it would be very different, or it would be very different, or it would be very difficult to find a mainstream Democrat who today would say, here's what I believe should be the limit on abortion.

Really, what you hear is that, well, it should just be a choice. I mean, this is the legislation that we're seeing in California, that we're seeing in New Jersey, that we're seeing in Maryland. We are actually seeing the decriminalization of fatal negligence of babies even after they're born and if they survive an abortion. I mean, you saw the Born Alive Survivors Act that Republicans in the Senate tried to pass. a couple years ago, and no Democrats voted yes on it. This was simply saying that doctors should be required to provide life-saving care to babies

who survived an abortion. Okay. So that's not even limiting an abortion. No Democrat voted yes on that. So it is a mainstream extremist position on the left. I'm not saying you represent it, but it is a mainstream position on the left that there should be absolutely no limits to abortion. So I just think that you're wrong that no progressives think that there should be.

you know, no limits to abortion. That is the mainstream position today. I think of those. And of course, I'm not saying no progressives. I say by and large, most progressives that I know of would say that about 20 weeks is the general limit on when we would talk about when an abortion can take place. And that's based on viability. That's based on what we know scientifically, viability of the fetus to be able to actually grow into a fullborn baby. Okay, well, let's wait. I want to hear more about that because 24 weeks is viability. Babies as youngest 21 weeks have survived outside the womb. 24 weeks is actually viability where they have more than a 50% chance to survive outside the womb. So let's hear a little bit more about your

reasoning. Why should abortion be allowed before 20 weeks but not after? Well, simply because of viability, simply because... They're not viable at 20 weeks. No, exactly. So the moral question here, for me as a pastor, is when does life begin? And this is the question that Christians and people of all faith have been debating for thousands of years in different traditions. There are are different answers to this question. I think scientifically we can say today up to 24 weeks is when a fetus becomes viable. So I think that timeframe between 20 to 24 weeks is the time that we then can start talking about restrictions on abortion. I do think there are instances when the mother's life is at risk that we have to talk more broadly about this. This is where

it gets morally complex. But I think abortion likes so many moral issues. We want to make this just black and white. It either is completely legal forever. or it's completely banned for everyone. And I think these are highly individualized situations and it doesn't do good for our polarization. It doesn't do good for the health of anyone in our country when we simply make this black and white in or out good or bad because it's not that simple. So human beings, we become human beings technically scientifically at the moment of conception. That's when we have our unique DNA. Now listen, what you are arguing is, and a lot of people have argued it.

You're right. Different traditions say different things. The argument is not whether a person is a human as a human at conception. We have everything that we need and just need time in order to develop into a baby that is able to survive outside the womb. We are all human beings at conception. The question is that you are bringing up is when does a human being become a person? When does a human being get rights?

That is really the debate that you are raising. There is no question in embryology or biology when a human being is. is a human being. I mean, if you have ever seen a baby in a first trimaster sonogram, that's a baby. That is a baby. That's not just a blob. That is a baby with not just a heart and a brain and ribs and lungs and fingers and toes,

moving and kicking and teeth that you can see and lungs that are developing. I mean, you see a fully formed human being at just 10 weeks gestation inside the womb. And so why? Why do you say that that clearly human being that we can see, why is that not a human? Who decided that why all the sudden at 20 weeks gestation does that person become a human? Like, when did that happen? And why do you have the authority to say that they're not a human before that? I've never claimed to have any authority on this issue.

I'm speaking for my person. Apparently you do because you believe that people should be able to kill that human being before that. So why? Because it's not a human being. I don't think any water. I don't think modern science would say that just when a baby is conceived that that is now a human being, that is a potential life. I will give you that life. It's alive. If it's not alive, then the woman isn't pregnant. Then the woman has had what happens in a miscarriage if that human being is not alive in the womb. Biability is the standard by which we know a fetus can become a fully alive human being. They are fully alive. I know that you've never been pregnant. I know that the left is confused about whether men or women can actually carry a child. But. But that human being is alive.

You can feel that baby kicking at 16 weeks. You can see the baby in the sonogram moving and kicking around. They can recognize their mother's voice before the time you say that they are an actual human being. Science does tell us they're a human being. You are saying that some human beings don't have rights. That is what modern science says. Yours is a superstitious philosophical position, not a scientific one.

Well, I am primarily a pastor and theologian. So yes, I'm going to talk from a theological and philosophical perspective, primarily. Okay. Give me the theological support for a baby all of a sudden becoming a human at 20 weeks. The earliest Jewish tradition in the Hebrew Bible says that a person doesn't become a person until first breath. Now I reject that. But here's the thing. There is ancient tradition.

There is ancient religious tradition. You would even say there's ancient Judeo-Christian tradition that has disagreed about when exactly life begins. And that is the complex moral question. So I think it's important to go with what the science actually says. I've never read any scientific report in all my studies of abortion over the past. eight to 10 years that I've been talking about this topic that says when a baby is conceived that that is a human being. I don't think any. What else is it? Okay, okay, here, what else is it? If it's not a human being, is it a summer squash? Is it a Turvis Tumblr? No, but that doesn't

actually exist. We're not potential. We're not potential. That doesn't even make sense. Okay, tell me then what happens in a miscarriage. That's a potential human life that was ending. That's a horrible. A potential human life that was into. Do you not hear that that doesn't make any sense? A human life can exist because potential means it doesn't exist yet. Potential by definition means that it does not exist yet. So a potential something cannot end. It has to exist for it to end. It has to live for it to die. That's a completely illogical argument. Potential can be. Let's break it down. Let's break it down. Tell me how something that does not exist ceases to exist. I didn't say it doesn't exist. I said it has the potential to exist and you can stop the potential of that life from becoming real. But it does, but it does exist or else it can't die. I did it's a the potential ends the potential for that fetus to become a fully so when a woman is pregnant she's not actually pregnant with anything when she sees in the ultrasound at eight weeks that beating heart that's a potential potential what a potential what potential what potential then then what is it at the time you can't if you see something if something tangibly exists this is not a potential this is not a potential microphone this is an actual microphone when you put a seed in the ground is it a tree or is it a It is a potential tree. It is a potential tree. This is how growth. Listen, it's not just a seed. It's not just a seed that we're talking about. We are talking about all of the cells, all of the cells that are necessary to grow into a fully formed baby. But it is a human being at conception. You simply believe that it is okay to kill certain human beings because they're not big enough yet. That is the debate. There's no scientific debate about whether or not a human is a human at conception. The whole debate is whether or not that human being has rights. And you believe that human beings, some human beings don't have rights. That's what you believe.

But as a Christian, I think that what you're doing is unethical by jumping the gun and taking words that I'm not saying and making the words that sound good to your audience. A potential human life is a potential human life. I think scientifically I stand with the majority of the science today. I'm very confident in that. And again, I'm not, my primary objective is to simply say we want to see abortions reduced. And the way we're going to do that is not by banning abortions. We can get into the technical conversation, but it's a complex moral conversation that's been going on in our country for a very long time. And there are not clear answers.

I want to talk about what is the best way to ensure that women stay healthy, to ensure that our country continues to move forward in a way that protects everyone, including the least vulnerable. And I don't think that is through banning and criminalizing abortion, which is what a number of these Republican states want to do if Roe v. way it is overturned. And that will we know statistically that that will cause great harm to women and that will cause great harm to many people across the country disproportionately affecting communities of color and communities

that are already disadvantaged in our society. Well, unfortunately, people of color are already disproportionately affected by abortion. In New York City, several years in a row, more black babies were aborted than born. A highly disproportionate number of

black babies are aborted every year. of course that goes back to the history and the origins of Planned Parenthood, which was started by a white supremacist eugenicist. It's carrying on that legacy today by disproportionately killing unborn children. And so if you want to talk about harm from our perspective, if you want to talk about harm, if you want to talk about danger, like we can talk about poisoning and dismembering and purposely stopping the heartbeat of living human beings while they are in the womb. And if you just want to focus on a post-viability, abortions, unfortunately, that happens at least 10,000 times a year. These are brutal procedures, really from conception onward, abortion is a brutal, violent procedure of human beings that are made in the image of God. So if you want to talk about danger, if you want to talk about violence, if you want to talk about things that are harming, like let's talk about the abortion procedure, which is killing people, which I just can't find in all of my study of scripture, that the God who made us in our mother's womb fearfully and wonderfully and purposely with specificity,

that the Jesus who invited the children to come to him, that the God who says in Jeremiah won that before he formed us in our womb, that he knew us, I cannot find anywhere in Leviticus when God calls for the death penalty of the Israelites who were sacrificing their children to Molek. I cannot find anywhere in scripture that that God who purposely creates us, who made us all in his image, who hates the shedding of innocent blood. I cannot find anywhere in Scripture that there would be any justification for killing, for example, a 19 and a half week baby, but not a 20 week baby. That's arbitrary.

And it has been that arbitrary assignment of personhood and rights has been the logical justification for every single dehumanization and genocide throughout history. there is nowhere in scripture that would do anything but condemn it. You're simply incorrect. Scientifically, we know up to the moment of viability. That thing that you're calling a baby is not yet a baby. I fundamentally disagree. It is a baby.

You have never, maybe one day when there is a scientific development where you can carry a child and you look at the sonogram and you see that child inside of you. There's no difference. There's no difference between a 19 and a half week baby and a 20 week baby. That is a human being that has. has been kicking the walls of your uterus for several weeks at that point. They don't suddenly become a baby. That is a superstitious, unscientific view that is not backed by embryology or any biological

knowledge of fetal development at all. You have given in to a dogmatic, superstitious view of human life. It is arbitrary. Your view is arbitrary. Deleting, deleting organizations in our country like the CDC. CITs and with us. I have, I can cite things for you. We have, let me pull up, up to 23 weeks, the CDC says that is when the moment of viability is.

Viability. Yes, viability is not the same thing as humanity. And you just said that you are for abortion only until 20 weeks, 20 weeks isn't viability. So why? Because up to that point, it is just a potential human life. Why? Why 20 weeks? 20 weeks is not viability.

So why? The CDC says 23 weeks. biologically, that's when it becomes fully able to live outside. Not 20 weeks. Babies at 20 weeks cannot live outside the womb. So why are you saying that, why are you saying? Three weeks. I just quote it 23 weeks from the CDC.

Earlier you said 20. So now we're getting a little bit more radical. Okay. So now 23 weeks, only when a baby can survive outside the womb. And so people who, for example, outside of the womb, who are entirely dependent on a machine to live, who are not able to survive without the help of other people. Are those people, should we be able to legally murder them too?

I'm just trying to figure out your definition or your standard of what humanity is because you haven't been able to cite the science on it. I have, actually. You're bringing in external arguments to emotionalize this, which is the problem with this entire debate. No, it's called logic, and you haven't been able to support it. The CDC says the viability starts at 23 weeks, not humanity. Tell me, cite the scientific literature that says humanity starts at 23 weeks.

Both extremes want to make this a hyper-emotional argument. I'm not willing to do that. I believe this is a complex moral issue. I'm going to continue to stand with the millions of people, the majority of people in our country who believe that abortion should be able to be accessed in order to protect both the health of the mother and a lot of these, a lot of abortions are taking place their general health practices. This is to be for the well-being of the mother for people.

The point is, I think the emotionalization of this argument is not helping us in this country move forward in any way. I think if we overturn Roe v. Wade, I think we are going to see drastically negative consequences. We're going to see not abortion end. We're going to see legal abortion end. And that's going to result in people doing things that are going to harm themselves and be very unhealthy for them because they're going to find alternative means to get access to abortion.

The way we decrease abortion is through increased sexual education, increased contraception Contraceptives, increased women's health. That is what we need to do. We've seen that over the past decade. We've seen abortions decrease under such policies. If we overturn Rovers Wade, we can only expect that abortion numbers are actually going to increase just not in the legal ways. And it's going to put undue burden on women. This is not the best for our country.

This is not the direction we should be heading. And that's why I'm opposing this action, this potential draft opinion by Justice Aligo. Okay, let me pause for a second. they're telling me two things that one your phone is shaking or your tape your tape you might have like your hands on your table so it might be shaking two Skype because it does this it is blocking like I can't hear you if you're interjecting on what I'm saying it's blocking it so do you have headphones just so it doesn't seem like we're trying to silence you it's okay yep 10 10 seconds that's fine pulling in the old-fashioned iPhone headphones let's see those are the best

ones, so that's totally fine. Gotcha. According to the Gutmacher Institute, what you probably know is a pro-choice, pro-abortion research institute, they actually say that they cannot find a causal relationship between some of the progressive policies that you're talking about and a reduction in abortion. Now, to be fair, they also say that they can't find a causal relationship between restrictions on abortion and reducing abortion. However, a lot of the time, the argument is made that, okay, when Democrats are president, then you see abortion rates lower.

So that must mean that Democratic policies are reducing abortions. For example, when Barack Obama was president, the abortion rate was lower than, I believe, when George W. Bush was president. However, if you look a little bit more closely at that, presidents are not the ones that are making abortion policy. The state legislatures are making abortion policy. And when Barack Obama was president, Republicans dominated state legislatures and passed more anti-abortion. abortion bills and they had in all of history. And so, like, if you want to surmise that maybe there's a causal relationship between one thing and the abortion rate, you would have to look at the fact that the actual people who are making abortion policy, which is not the president, which is typically

not the federal government, their state governments, they were passing anti-abortion pro-life legislation while Barack Obama was president. So I just find this idea that, oh, we need all these progressive policies and then we'll reduce abortion. I understand. the assumption that that would be the case, but I don't think there's very much, much research that is supporting that. In addition, even if we did have discussions about, okay, what policies can we put in place that will help women, that will help children, that will kind of take away the felt need of abortion? I still don't think that is a justification for taking away the rights of pre-born children simply because they're defenseless, simply because they're not politically useful,

simply because they're young or smaller exist inside the womb. That's not a least. legal justification for killing anyone, including babies inside the womb. But you know that's a straw man. Nobody is saying that we're people don't support abortion because we don't think these potential lives are politically useful. My question for you is, do you support Roe v. Wade completely being overturned and abortion being banned maybe legal across the country in any in any form? Oh, so you don't.

Oh, okay. So that is not what happens when Roe v. Wade is overturned. So. No, but it is what's happening in a lot of these states that have trigger laws. You just asked if I, you just asked if Roe v. Wade is overturned and abortion is banned across the board, but that's not going to happen. That's not what overturning Roe v. Wade does. I'm asking you what you believe. I'm asking you what you want to see.

Yes. I definitely want to see Roewey Wade overturned. 100% want to see Roewey Wade overturned. No. Do you want to see abortion banned across the country? Yes or no. Yes. I believe that we should be able to legally recognize the rights of unborn children because they're people just like anyone else.

You're not answering the question. Should abortion be illegal across the country under all certain circumstances? Yes, yes, I've already said that. All circumstances. Yeah, abortion should be illegal because these are human beings. They're human beings. I think that's an insane policy. I think it's out of sync with almost all Christian theology. I think it's insane to kill children simply because you have decided that at one week in gestation, completely arbitrarily, that they all of a sudden become human beings and all of a sudden become people with rights just because we say so. Yes, absolutely. Now, listen, I know a lot of people are saying, well, this is going to ban the treatment of miscarriages. This is going to ban the treatment of ectopic pregnancies. This is going to stop women whose lives are at risk from receiving care. That's not true. In all of those situations, I understand a baby has to be removed. That is different

than purposely stopping the heartbeat of and poisoning a child. I do understand that there are some complex questions and some hard decisions that have to be made if the physical life of a woman is truly at risk with the continuation of their pregnancy. Now, any time after viability, as we've already talked about is 23 weeks. That baby has to be removed anyway so that baby should be delivered, not purposely killed. The baby's coming out anyway. Now, before that, I do believe everything should be done to try to protect the life of both the mother and the child. If the baby sadly, tragically, has to be removed, that's what has to happen. But we're talking about the intentional killing of a child. And I always think that that is wrong. I always think that that should

be illegal. Yes, I've saved it that many times, so I'm certainly not afraid to say that. and our fundamental disagreement and the fundamental disagreement with my side of the aisle on this argument is that potential life is not life. And I think you're going to keep pushing back on that. And I think we fundamentally disagree and I think we stand on the side of the science. And that's where this disagreement comes down to. Yeah. And I just really want you to cite the science that says a human is not a human until 20 weeks. Because and cite the science that says a viability is the science. Viability is not humanity. Viability is not the same thing as you. No, it's not. No, it is not.

Because then, again, you could apply that outside of the womb. Viability means that they can survive without the help of the mother. Outside of the womb. There are plenty of people who cannot survive without the help of, for example, a machine. And so your standard is arbitrary. Your standard is arbitrary. Those are two very different things. How?

How? Tell me how. People that need to survive with a machine is very different than an infant. We know the skin. The skin of a fetus before viability. can barely survive being touched outside of the womb. Okay. It takes the chances of that potential life becoming an actual life are almost none.

We know that to be true. They're alive in the womb. What does it mean when they're breathing? What is life? What does alive mean? What does alive mean? They're alive from the point of conception because again, otherwise,

a miscarriage or an abortion wouldn't do anything. No, you cannot logically explain how a potential thing. No, you can't. You haven't been able to do. do it. How something that potentially exists can then stop existing. If it potentially exists, potential existence is not existed. That it exactly. So we can't cease to exist. It's growing. This is how biology works. No. I'm sorry that you're denying biology. Yes, when growth, when anything grows biologically, it is a potential until it becomes the full thing.

We can use an argument that as we did earlier, that is not quite as charged. Take any biological plant that is growing. As it's growing, it is not the full thing. A tree is not a tree until it's fully grown into a tree. It is a potential for that. There's a seed. There's a sapling. There are different stages of being a tree. It's never less of a tree. There are different stages of human life. There are different stages of an organism's development in the same way that an infant is not an adult. It's still a human being. But we call an infant a child in the same way that we call a fetus a baby. It's just a different stage of human development. So the ambiguity that's being highlighted.

Just because a person is less developed does not mean that they are not as much of a human as someone who is more developed. That's basically your argument. And again, my argument is that it's not a human at all. There's no science backing that. I'm telling you, dude. There's no science backing your perspective either.

Yes, there is. No, there isn't. Okay, cite it. Cite it, man. Cite your science man. Cite it because every piece of embryology. No. You can't just say every piece of embryology.

You don't have any science to back your perspective. The question is not when human life begins. That is not an argument. That is the precise question. For pastors, for theologians, it is about when life begins. That is the question I'm interested in. You're avoiding that because you want to be pro-choice, because you want to be pro-abortion. I don't want to be pro-choice.

I didn't start off saying I want to be pro-choice. I started off studying my tradition, studying scripture, talking to women in my congregation, and I arrived at this conclusion because of the science, because of my own philosophical reasoning and theological reasoning, this is what I believe is the right thing for our country. This is what I believe based on all the evidence I've seen and read. This is the perspective, I believe, most helps the most people in our country that protects the rights of women. And that's where I'm going to stand. Okay. Well, I don't know if I'm going to be able to change your position. I still think that your position is extremely, is extremely arbitrary,

Like I believe that it's conception, but of course there are people who believe, okay, well, it's when the heart beats and that's about 18 days after conception. There are some people believe that there it's when there's brain waves, which is about six weeks and two days after conception. There's independent. All arbitrary. Eight to ten. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Oh, you make such a good point. It is all completely arbitrary unless you start when life actually begins. With viability. No, unless you start at conception, but not all babies are viable at 24 weeks. See, so it's arbitrary. Unless you start. In last. You're not. It's arbitrary. Unless you start at. It's arbitrary. It's you start when life actually begins, which is conception. That's when we have separate DNA, distinct DNA. That is when, by the way, gender is decided. X, X, or X, Y, at the moment of conception. That's sex, not gender, but we can have another conversation about that. Oh, yes, we can't. Can I just say one thing before this comes to it?

I think the one thing that I am most passionate about as a follower of Jesus Christ is that we need to be able to have the ability to have these conversations without demonizing the other side. And since posting my TikTok video on your feed asking for interviews yesterday, the vitriol from your side, and I acknowledge there's vitriol on my side, has been nonstop. This is not the way we're going to move forward on this conversation. Demonizing each other is not the way we're going to move forward on this conversation. People on my side aren't supporting and being pro-choice because we hate babies. That's all that's demonizing.

That's untrue. And we need to be able to have reasonable, rational conversations, not emotional conversations. about this. And then perhaps we can change each other's hearts and minds. Then perhaps we can actually make progress in this country. And I think the demonization that takes place, again, on both sides, is completely unhelpful and is preventing our nation from leaning in to the best values that we have and to actually making progress in whatever direction on these policies. Now, I would agree with you there. And I do, and I just want to tell anyone who is listening to this, watching this. I'm looking at you, YouTube commenters, because YouTube is a totally different

field. It seems like that there should absolutely be no hate. There can be passionate disagreement, which I think is a great thing, but any kind of personal attacks is wrong and never something that I would support. Yes, I do see a lot. And I know we have our own perspectives and bias. Of course, from my perspective, I see like the vitriol and just threats to people's lives coming from the pro-choice side when I posted the other day that the person who leaked the Roe v. decision that they want to see the lives of conservative justices being threatened in their children because that's what's going to happen. What I got from blue checkmark, journalists, journalists were saying, good, they shouldn't have made this decision then. They shouldn't have

done it. Good. I'm not saying there's no vitriol on the anti-abortion side, but man, like you're talking about demonization. I am looking at threats to people's lives because they are pro-life. I agree with you. That's a problem. That's indefensible. And I've got many tweets over the past that says my mom should have aborted me because of my perspective. It's terrible. Yeah. So it's, we need to stop that. We need to be able to have a reasonable conversation.

And I do appreciate you willing to dialogue across the divide about this. So thank you. Well, for the record, I am glad that you are here. And I'm glad that your mom chose life. I am glad that you are a person made in the image of God who I believe in as much as we disagree on theology and on the gospel, you know, I believe that Jesus, died for our sins and by grace through faith, we can be made alive through him. And gosh, I really do hope and pray that he changes your heart and your mind on this. Maybe not, but maybe we can have

another conversation in the future about some more fundamental disagreements that we have, because I enjoyed it. Well, likewise. Again, thank you. And I'm grateful for the opportunity. Thanks very much. Have a good day. You too. Peace. All right, guys, I told you. It was going to be a fiery, a fiery conversation. Again, I appreciate him coming on and I hope that you appreciated that conversation. Maybe I will have him back. We've got some very fundamental disagreements about the Bible. For example, he doesn't believe that the Bible is the word of God. I would say that that is a very fundamental disagreement that we have. And so it would be really interesting to have him back on, as I said in the beginning, it's rare to have a progressive willing to debate these issues

with a conservative. And so maybe this can be some kind of series that we have. have. And I appreciate you guys listening as well. I just kind of want to reiterate because, you know, I wasn't expecting that we would kind of get stuck on the when life begins. I kind of just, he has made the argument in the past that God has given people autonomy, women autonomy over their bodies and that that is sacred and they get to decide what to do with their bodies. And so I kind of thought we would get more into that and we didn't. What I would say to that argument is that your autonomy, your liberty, your rights, your choices end where another person's right to life begins.

And so there are a lot of things that you have autonomy over as a human being. There are a lot of things that you can do with your body. You can do anything with your body, but you can't use your body to punch me. That's assault. And you will get in trouble because of that. And so we understand this principle that your autonomy has limits depending on how it infringes upon the rights, not just the desires, but the rights of someone else. And so we didn't get into that argument, but that's what.

I would say to that. Again, once again, it's that principle of bringing it back to the humanity of the life of the child and reminding people what abortion actually is. And by the way, again, open an embryology textbook you will find when human life begins. I personally still think he is confused about what the debate is actually over. The debate is over personhood. That's a philosophical debate, not a scientific debate over when humanity begins. And as you saw, he was unable or unwilling to answer that as appreciative as I am of his willingness to at least try and talk to me about it. I do just want to end. I thought John Piper has given really good, just 10 solid reasons why abortion is wrong. And I appreciate his insight into a lot of these

subjects in particular abortion. So 10 reasons why it is wrong to take the life of unborn children. Number one, God commanded thou shalt not murder, Exodus 2013. Two, the destruction of conceived human life, whether embryonic, fetal, or viable is an assault on the unique person-forming work of God. Three, abording unborn humans falls under the repeated biblical ban against shedding innocent blood. And I didn't see a reference there, but I did write it down. And the command that he is talking about there is Jeremiah 22, 16 through 17. but you have eyes and heart only for your dishonest gain. God is judging Judah here for shedding innocent blood and for practicing oppression and violence. And so this absolutely goes under the category of

oppression and violence. The Bible frequently expresses the high priority number four. God puts on the protection and provision and vindication of the weakest and most helpless and most victimized members of the community, certainly the most helpless members of our community are these babies. inside the womb. And I also wanted to get into with Brandon, what an abortion procedure at 20 weeks, 21 weeks, pre-viability, 22 weeks, what that entails and how violent it is and how that squirming, moving baby is brutally killed at that point in gestation. I mean, there's just no question of whether or not this is evil. Number five, John Piper says, by judging difficult and even tragic human life as a worse evil than taking life. Abortionists contradict the widespread biblical teaching that God loves to show

his gracious power through suffering and not just by helping people avoid suffering. So he is speaking to that point that you often hear on the pro-choice side, well, that their life might be hard, or that they might be unwanted, or they might end up in foster care, or they might be poor, or whatever justification that they give. And he is saying that avoiding suffering in life is is not the goal. It's not the goal and it's not a justification for killing someone. And he points out that God's mercy can work through a person's hardship and suffering. It's not an excuse to kill someone. Number six, this goes along with that. It is a sin of presumption, John Piper says, to justify abortion by taking comfort in the fact that all these little children will go to heaven or even be given

full adult life in the resurrection. That's also what you hear, that these souls are just going back to God. So what's the problem with it? Well, you could argue then, then, then why don't you just murder everyone who is, that would be the justification for murdering anyone who you believe is going to have an outside of the womb too. So that doesn't really hold up. Number seven, John Piper says the Bible commands us to rescue our neighbor who is being unjustly led away to death. Number eight, abhorting unborn children falls under Jesus' rebuke of those who spurned

children is inconvenient and unworthy of the Savior's attention. He is referring to Matthew 19 there. and I can read that passage. Then children were brought to him, Jesus, that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people. But Jesus said, let the little children come to me and do not hinder them. For two such belongs to the kingdom of heaven.

And he laid his hands on them and went away. Number nine, it is the right of God, the maker, to give and to take human life. It is not our individual right to make this choice. Now, I would say that there's a caveat here for the justification of the death penalty in cases of murder, but I am supposing probably that John Piper is talking about innocent life here. Number 10. Finally, saving faith in Jesus Christ brings forgiveness of sins and cleansing of conscience and held through life and hope for eternity. Surrounded by such omnipotent love, every follower of Jesus is free from the greed and fear that might lure a person to forsake these truths in order to gain money or avoid reproach.

So I think those are 10 really good reasons. There's probably 100 more. But it all comes down to the fact that human beings from conception onward are made in the image of God. And therefore, it is murder and therefore a sin to murder them. And if there is anything, if there is anything that a government should do, if there is any job that a government has, even the most limited libertarian government, it is to protect the innocent person. It is to protect the innocent human being. It is to protect their right, the most fundamental right, not to be murdered inside the womb. So I'm proud of you guys.

Again, I just want to reiterate that. Keep on being bold, courage, but gets courage. Politics matter because people matter. Raise a respectful ruckus. This is the hill. Like if you want one hill, of course, in addition to the hill, the gospel, if you want one hill to fight on, let this be it. It's a matter of life and death.

you're doing good work, keep being bold, keep being courageous, keep being obedient. We will be back here on Monday. Who the heck knows what we're going to end up talking about? We have rearranged a lot of stuff this week to continue talking about this important subject. And I truly thank God for the opportunities that I've had over the past couple of weeks to talk about to talk about this. I have thankfully, I've had three media interviews and I had a speech that I gave just yesterday and I got to talk about this in every single situation.

and I'm just, and on here, of course, and I'm just thankful for the platform. I'm thankful for the ability to talk about it. And I just praise the Lord for not just giving me a voice, but giving all of you a voice too. We're in this together. And I am so glad to partner with you in trying to protect the most vulnerable. Our fight is worth it. And expect pushback, but the pushback is worth it too. So thank you guys so much for listening for being here. We will be back here on Monday. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself.

On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this T-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.