Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - REPLAY | Ex-Witch Reveals LA’s Dark World of Sex Cults and Blood Offerings | Guest: Jac Marino Chen

Episode Date: March 18, 2025

Today we hear the powerful testimony of Jac Marino Chen, who shares her incredible journey from the darkness of the occult to the light of the gospel. Jac opens up about her early experiences with trauma and supernatural encounters, which led her to New Age practices and, eventually, the occult. She describes the deep darkness she lived in while practicing ritual magic and how the love and power of Jesus Christ saved her. Jack’s story is a testament to the fact that no one is ever too far gone to be reached by the grace of God.  Share the Arrows 2025 is on October 11 in Dallas, Texas! Go to sharethearrows.com for tickets now! Buy Allie's new book, "Toxic Empathy: How Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion": https://a.co/d/4COtBxy --- Relevant Episodes: Ep 1046 | Ex-Psychic on Demonic Possession & Taylor Swift | Guest: Jenn Nizza https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1046-ex-psychic-reveals-truth-about-taylor-swift/id1359249098?i=1000664520231 --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

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That's fellowship homelones.com slash alley, term supply, see site for details, fellowship home loans, mortgage lending by the book, nationwide mortgage bankers, DBA Fellowship Home Loans, equal housing lender, NMLS, number 819382. We are playing a replay episode of a very popular episode of Relatable today because the Relatable team is traveling to a very fun location to have a special exclusive interview with Nicole Shanahan. You'll remember that name because she was RFK Jr's running mate when he was running for president. She recently had a conversion experience. She shared about her conversion to Christianity and her. her baptism on social media a few weeks ago, and I knew I had to try to talk to her. She was

gracious enough to meet with us, and that episode will be out tomorrow. Until then, enjoy this replay of Relatable. Jack Marino Chen came out of the occult and met Christ, and her testimony from the time she was a child and feeling like she was connected to these transcendent entities that she thought were aliens into the New Age and then into the occult. and then out of that very dark world and into the light of the gospel, you are going to be so encouraged by the details of her story and just reminded of the power of Jesus to save us from absolutely anything. You are never too far gone, and Jack's testimony is such a good example of that powerful truth. Today's episode of Relatables brought to you by Friends at Good

ranchers go to good at good ranchers.com. Use code alley at checkout. That's good ranchers.com code Ali. Jack, thanks so much for joining us. If you could tell everyone who you are. Well, my name is Jack, and I grew up thinking I was a Christian, was sexually abused as a child that left me very confused in a lot of ways and suppressing that. And then I had a supernatural experience with what I originally thought were angels, but then later learned about aliens and really, grasped onto that as an identity and found an escape from stuffing down the abuse in the supernatural experiences. And then that led to escaping myself through alcohol, drugs, self-harm. And I ended up getting in very unhealthy relationships, abusive relationships, and was introduced

more to new age ideology. In high school, I read the book The Secret, which opened my eyes. eyes, so a law of attraction, and it was very an exciting thought that I could control my reality. And another bad relationship led me deeper into the new age until when that crumbled down and I really had to be alone with myself. I just thought I really need to get control. And I started being influenced by these entities, believing that I was led. One thing led to another led to another until I joined an end. a cult order called the Golden Dawn where we practiced ritual magic in a Freemason Lodge. And it was there that Jesus Christ met me in that darkness and saved me. And I've been sober now for coming up, or seven

years actually, wow, seven years and I'm married. And it's been amazing that I never thought that I would smile or laugh again in the deep darkness that I was in. And the Lord has completely redeemed my life. Okay, let's back up to the beginning. You said that you thought that you were a Christian when you were growing up. And so what was the religious belief of your parents? Well, we thought, I thought that we were Christians kind of like you're American. You're just born into it. And so I went to a Methodist preschool. I don't remember hearing the gospel, but then again, I was very young. Yeah. And my idea of Jesus was someone that you imagine when you're afraid. just a picture of a man that I would imagine. So I really didn't understand what it meant to be a Christian, but really thought that I was. And the sexual abuse happened at a very young age, and I really stuffed it down and didn't want anyone to find out about it.

Was this a family member? Yes. Okay. And how old were you? It's hard to say. My earliest memories are of the abuse, But for sure when I was five, it can be. I'm so sorry.

Thank you. That's so young. I mean, any age, it's tragic and a nightmare. But when you're five years old, you don't even have the words, the mentality to wrap your mind around what's happening. And of course, you don't have the power to defend yourself either. Right. Right. And I definitely experienced that.

And when I was around seven, the person who abused me was caught, abusing a toddler. and was sent away. And I just told myself, if I never think about this again, I can just believe my lie that this didn't happen. I was so afraid of being caught or it being found out I didn't have the mental wherewithal really to understand what had happened. And I felt a lot of guilt and shame. You thought it was kind of your fault. Exactly. And did you talk to your parents about it? No. I just totally denied it, said nothing ever happened, and really thought if I believe that enough. I could create my own reality, you know, the Disney fairy tale kind of. I can make my dreams come true. And if I believe this, I could make that happen. Yeah. It was your way of escape.

Exactly. Yeah. And it was around that same age of seven that I first had that supernatural experience. Just seeing lights in the sky that felt very, not just like lights, but these familiar, personal, powerful presences. And my only way of understanding that was, oh, they must be angels, but then to learn about aliens, I think I really latched on to that because I believe that they saw me, they knew me, they accepted me, and they knew what had happened to me. And so you were outside. Yes. And it was just one moment where you were outside and you looked up and you saw these lights. You thought, these are angels communicating with me, letting me know that I'm okay and that they know what has happened to me. Yes, I was looking out over a canyon and it was just, it's kind of hard to put

in words, but it felt so powerful, like the most powerful thing I'd experienced. Like out of body experience almost. Yes. And I really, I truly made that my identity because it was so exciting for me and I felt special to them. And so I held on to that experience. And once that I continued having, that were similar than this fascination with aliens throughout my life. So you said that you were seven at this time and that became your identity and that then you learned about aliens. So tell me what that looked like. It's such a young age.

How did that become your identity? That's a great question. I really started enjoying kind of being different and I started feeling like I was more influenced towards the more devious things, things that I knew were wrong. There was a lot of confusion that comes with childhood sexual abuse. I gravitated towards friends who I later learned were also being abused in many cases, but I started teaching my friends and they'd teach me what was happening with them sexually. And so there was just so much guilt and shame and anger and things stuck pushed down

that these escapes, these powerful moments of experience as that child. gave me something to hope in to look forward to and that very small amount that I knew about Christianity I started giving a way to embrace a worldview that had a place for these beings who I was special to them is what I received from that and that meant something so much to me in a world where I felt like no one really knew who I was and you had access to the internet at this point where you using the internet to try to figure out what these powers were in your life? Yeah, I didn't really get access to the internet until later on. But once I did definitely, really was reading things or hearing other people talk about UFOs or

gray aliens. That would kind of give me the little bit here and there that I latched on to with those experiences. Yeah. And when did you learn about aliens and how did you come to feel that these lights that you had interacted with or that you felt like you had. reacted with were aliens, at least according to your belief that? Yeah. I, it was a family member who was also very influenced with the UFO idea that I was very close to. And so it just kind of made sense to me. Like something clicked that the whole angel thing was just a vague idea, the only context that I

had for it. But the idea of aliens visiting and there's this mystery behind it. And it's alluring and exciting really drew me in. Okay. And talk a little bit more about how that became your identity and kind of grew to be such a dominant part of your life when you were, I'm guessing, preteen teenage years. I just really thought I was special to them. And so I would kind of seek out those experiences. I made my own Ouija boards, really wanting to have more contact with these beings again, which I really thought were my friends. Other people had imaginary friends. I didn't get that because with these beings, I felt like they were. were actual experience. Yes. And I would try to have imaginary friends, but it was just different. So to me, these were my friends who saw me, who knew me, who loved me. And so growing up, again, I continued trying to escape myself. I had developed an eating disorder in eighth grade. I was self-harming.

I was just really becoming devious. I really was. And when I got to high school, I wanted to fit in with people. I really just kept making other things my idol. I truly, didn't know who I was inside. I didn't, the truth is, like, I didn't know who God was. I didn't know that in that pain of my abuse and what was going on and the confusion and the things that I was doing, that there was a good God that I could run to and that Jesus isn't just someone to imagine, but that he is this perfect savior who went to the cross. And he was tempted as I am, and he was tempted as we are yet without sin, and that on the cross he died. bearing God's wrath and my sin in my place died rose again and now is ascended to the right hand of

God as the one mediator between God and man like I had no understanding that there was a savior that I could go to that I could run to that I could cast my anxieties on because he cares for me there was no one to go to I thought I was afraid of anyone finding out who I was so these beings knowing me in addition to escaping myself through any means possible and even in idolatrous, very confused friendships. And then I realized that if I didn't start drinking and doing drugs, I would lose those friendships because that's what they were doing. I forgot to mention that my dad, who was very close to my mom separated from him when I was five

because he had a meth addiction and an alcohol addiction. And so it was unsafe for us to be with him. And so that was very hard for me. There had a lot of turbulence. Yes. And a lot of confusion about who you were, who was your caretaker, like who really cared about you. And you're just trying to find your identity. So it kind of, I mean, it makes sense to me that a child, as young as seven, would latch on to something that they feel is a power bigger than them.

And that is steady and sees them as special because that's how you wanted to feel. And you wanted to feel known without having to tell the people around you because of the guilt that you. felt like you bore. You talked about trying to communicate to these entities through like a Ouija board. What other ways were you trying to communicate to them and have a relationship with them? Yeah. It was really when I got older. It was more when I was young. I was kind of afraid at some points. It felt like they were visiting me. I wasn't doing a whole lot of reaching out to them. but in high school starting to take on these more new age beliefs without knowing that that was what it was with the book The Secret and Law of Attraction and oh, the universe is so big, wow,

this is really making sense for what I've experienced and diving into that. And then once I was in a relationship that was very confusing, I believed this person was my twin flame. Actually more than my twin flame, he taught me that. We lived hundreds of lives. And we were each other and that in some of them, we sadly were sent on different quests, but we were the same being ultimately. Yeah.

And so is this teenage years or early 20s? This is late teens. Okay. Yes. And that relationship was very painful. But all that to say, being more introduced to these new age ideologies. I started using now the drugs. I was specifically taking to contact these entities.

I was getting into psychedelic drugs. To do that, I was going into trances, using binaural beats. What's that? It's kind of like these different frequencies or ways that you can trigger your mind allegedly to go into altered states of consciousness, similar to a guided meditation, but just to try to already get your mind somewhere else. And again, this was very alluring to me because it was escaping myself now in much more powerful ways. You know, you've talked about before that some of the friendships that you had had with, I believe they're mostly girls, right?

Yes. As a young person, that they were also being sexually abused and you felt from an early age that you also had to be sexual and that it caused a lot of sexual confusion in your life, which really plays a part in that. this escapism and seeking to have communication with the other side. Can you talk about some of that confusion about your own identity? Yeah. I was really, shame was such a huge part. Shame and guilt. I felt so much shame and so much guilt. And there is some confusion around like what is true, what is sexual orientation confusion? What is just lust? What is? And in my case, I think, especially later on, there was just a general depravity and misunderstanding about what sexuality is. But I would go through these friendships and just really hope that I'd never be found out.

That you had been sexually abused? Sexual abuse and that there had been sexual things going on in these friendships. There was so much shame in that. And I had a friendship where the person who was, I saw as a friend, but there had been that intimacy, for lack of better words, started having feelings for me. And that... This is a girl.

This is a girl. And there's a lot of fear that that being public would then expose to me. Yeah, exactly. Not just the one thing, but everything that I, you know, then people will really see me. And that was terrifying to think about. And so that confusion and just pushing it down, really just confusion about sexuality and all together who I am as a person was driving those confusions. Yeah. I mean, your first introduction to sexuality was so disordered.

Right. And I mean, there's a lot of data out there that the earlier child is introduced to sex inappropriately like that the more likely they are to be confused down the line. about sexuality, attractions, lust. I mean, disorder kind of breeds disorder. Sin can breed sin. And it's interesting that even though you didn't grow up in a traditional Christian home, that you still had this feeling that this is not right. Things are messed up inside of me.

You weren't seeking the Savior to save you from those things yet, but you were seeking some kind of salvation from that. Yes. And I think there was just this real false gospel being preached to me, although I wouldn't have seen it then through these beings that was like, you are special, you have a purpose, and you can be, you know, liberated from this because we have this plan for you was really enticing and exciting. And I think that's why I found so much identity in it. Yeah. So you mentioned that you kind of got into the new age, the secret, the law

of attraction. Not everyone knows that book, The Secret. I mean, it's very famous or maybe infamous. Tell us a little bit about what that is and what revelations you felt that you had when you were reading that, I think, in your early 20s. I actually read this in high school. In high school. Okay. So was it right around that time of that really unhealthy relationship with the twin flame guy? This was one relationship before that and more, yeah, in a different abusive relationship. But when I read that, it talks about basically you can make your dreams come true. You can, your thoughts, create your reality. Guess what? You actually have the power to create whatever life you want and you are the most important being in the universe because you can manifest whatever life

you want. But it was very packaged like Barnes and Noble and not Barnes and Noble now, but packaged in a way that it was palatable for many people. It didn't appear occultic. It didn't appear at New Age. It was kind of self-empowerment and this is great. And I really saw it that way. It was interesting. Looking back, seeing on the first page now, it says, as above, so below the emerald tablets of Thoth, who later in my story is the entity that I was following that got me, or that I believed was the entity that I was following that got me deep, deep into the occult. It's pure darkness. And it's just hidden on the front page. But again, it's sold as this very glittery, beautiful girl boss. You can create your own life. Isn't that great? Yes. Oh my goodness.

Okay. So that's how that started. Law of Attraction. Basically, you attract what you are. You attract what you say, you can manifest your success by just declaring it. And did you believe that at the time? I did. Which is interesting because when it doesn't work, it's your fault because you must have thought a negative thought somewhere along the line. So it really does become this thing that puts you in bondage, but it sounded very freeing that, hey, I really don't like my life. I mean, there were good parts of it, but generally I didn't. And I can actually make my life be whatever it is because I have the power to be my own God and create my own reality. It really goes back to Genesis and just promising that the power of knowing the difference between, you know, the knowledge of good and evil,

eating from that tree will give Eve godlike powers that will free her and then obviously led to bondage. So you got into this relationship with someone who said that you were twin flames. And you kind of already explained it. But basically, what that means that there is like this internal flame between you and this other person that was always meant to be. It was eternal, as you said, like lived a lot of different lives. And it really doesn't matter if my understanding is correct. Like twin flames could be married to different people, but they're just in the wrong

relationship. And if you meet, you have to get together because it is almost this external, powerful, transcendent force that is pulling you together. Yeah. Like a soul tie. Yes. Yeah, you're exactly right. That's how it's explained and really what I believed. And it was so ultimately I had, I made this man my God. Like he became my religion, teaching me about the new age. I believed that we were each other. The first time that I saw him, I felt that same familiar feeling that I saw that I felt when I first saw those entities. And so it was this deep connection of in a world of a lot of darkness and pain in my world, it was like, Here's this person with color and with answers and with beautiful things to say that I hadn't heard before. And I really dove into that until I became just a follower of him.

And he started to teach me. It's with him that I started trying psychedelic drugs, getting more. And we went to New Age festivals similar to Burning Man, but on smaller scales where I'm learning more about sexual liberation and polyamory and all these different new age. new age ideas and practices like charging my crystals in the moonlight and and I again having no not knowing who I was finding my identity in this new thing that promised me power to create my own reality and ultimately uh because I was serving this person so much to work off karma and become closer together yeah and sorry to back up a little bit because I believe this was the previous relationship, but I'm interested in how this played a role. The person that you had dated before

this, that was also an abusive relationship, he was Native American. And with that, I'm guessing there came, you know, a set of beliefs that he had that also influenced kind of your paganism and your belief in the new age. Is that right? Yes. Yeah, my main, quote unquote, good memories of with him that weren't violent, were staying up all night on drugs, on the reservation, talking about aliens and ancestors and elements and just different things that I was learning and being taught. And again, what's amazing is I still would have said I was a Christian, even in high school through drug abuse, alcohol abuse, living for myself, living in sin. I would have said I was a Christian because I really didn't know what that meant. And if someone said,

if someone confronted me, which by God's grace a couple people did, I would have thought, you can't judge my heart, you don't know me. You don't know me. But in this relationship, I still would have said I was a Christian, but the reality was I never knew Christ. But also the little truth that I did know, I was giving more and more a way to embrace these ideas that, you know, it's judgmental to not embrace this new Native American idea because they, you know, maybe they were here first or just starting to think that maybe everything is right. I just need to look at it the right way. And tell me how you kind of graduated, if that's even the right word or got into what is the occult. Because the occult and the new age aren't necessarily the same things, right, if you're able to explain that. Yeah, I personally would say that the occult is where the new age roots are. If you follow the new age, you'll find the occult. And when the relationship with this twin, quote unquote, twin flame and it was very awful. I'm sure. You felt like your whole self was wrapped up in this person.

Yes. Yes. And I had just moved to Hollywood and got in a studio apartment to be closer to him. And then I got the call that it was over, but he was coming back for me. And I was left with in it like a spiritual sense or like I'm breaking up with you. But because we're twin flames will find our way back to each other kind of thing. Yes. It was very confusing.

Yes. And it was it was both the spiritual and the physical I'm coming back for you just need to make something of myself You should you know keep doing drugs to wait for me so that it'll pass faster and just these These things but I really believe them to the extent that now that I'm married to be honest Or I guess I should say to be completely vulnerable It was really hard for me to take that step because there was still this lie that I'd harbored for years like he's coming back for me So there was a lot of it was hard for you to take the step of marriage because, you know, Satan had just embedded that twin flame idea

in your mind. Wow, that's such, such bondage. Yes. And so graduating when it did end being, I mean, I really snapped, which I already was pretty deep in it, but I snapped thinking I, at this time, my dad was homeless on the streets in L.A. And when it would rain, it would just destroy me thinking about him because I was his responsible party and there's a lot of pain and this isn't working by God's grace when I was in the new age and at these festivals, you know, there would be tantra yoga tents and basically like pagan orgy kind of things going on and the idea that you need to embrace your sexual liberation, sexual freedom. And there were just some things that I couldn't do. There was a restraint there that I just felt.

so wrong to me that I couldn't do it. And that made me really upset because I thought that my Christian dogma, Christian dogma was holding me back from being truly free and truly liberated. So I'd be so upset with myself that I couldn't be who my twin flame wanted me to be or who I thought I would fit in more with these people if I could be. But when the relationship ended, I just thought I need to, ultimately, I wanted to see your conscience. I wanted to push it all down and just go in. and find where the real power was because manifesting my reality wasn't working out so well. And so that really looked like me locking myself in the studio apartment, using drugs, spending all of my time researching, whatever I was led to in that Twin Flame relationship. I had really believed that these entities wanted to see through my eyes, not thinking of that as possession, just thinking, you know, I've known these entities.

They're my friends. They're so familiar throughout childhood, and I'm just special, and they just want to use my body and see through my eyes. Wow. It's interesting because if you had just dropped in there, it sounds so clearly bad, but having been my whole life kind of working up to this, it just made the next logical step, made sense. And so diving into all that then now, just diving into it more, I got into something called lucid dreaming, where I was very. practicing waking up in my dreams so that I could control my dreams and go on these astral planes and meet my spirit guides and learn more knowledge and something called by yourself mostly yes I was very isolated um would have a hard time having conversations with people I was not in my

right mind at all yeah um something called I'm so sorry no go ahead go ahead um something called astral projection also doing similar kind of things and I also was led to this entity called Thoth and something called the Emerald Tablets of Thoth and I'd strung a clothesline across my studio apartment and painted the words on it. And I was just so obsessed trying to find the secret knowledge and the next key to unlock the powers to the universe. And you said that these entities that you still thought were aliens at this point, they wanted to see through your eyes. You felt like they were telling you that. Yeah. And did that happen? Like, did you ever have a moment where you felt like, okay, they're in?

Fleeting moments, I think that sometimes, especially in meditative states, I would feel more connected with them in that way. But there was, as I got deeper and deeper into it, I remember looking at my eyes in the mirror, like just meeting my gaze and just my blood running cold with fear of like, I just. not recognize whatever is behind my eyes. That's not me. But still thinking, I need to go into the darkness and shine the light of knowledge and all these words that I'd learned to feel the fear and do it anyway. So I kept pressing on in that. And yeah, there were, I started channeling. I would write things like I'm an alien watching through the eyes of a girl and just very dark things, really getting more and more depraved as well. Yeah. And then what led you into the occult? I continued. It was, it's kind of strange, but it was like every, the next thing would glow, physically glow, because I was so out of my mind. I didn't know what was physical reality

and what was just me seeing things, you know, that weren't really there. And so things, things would glow. I was walking down the street and I saw a Freemason Lodge and that glowed. So that got me more into the Masonic texts, Kabbalistic texts. And I don't know. I don't really know what Freemason is or what Masonic texts are. So can you give us just a brief explainer? Yeah. So Freemasonry, I get a lot of pushback when I talk about Freemasonry because Freemasonry is for men. They do have other orders that I actually reached out to the Freemason Lodge. It's a I think they would call themselves more of a fraternity like a brotherhood

but it is a secret society ultimately I think that it has a lot to do with idolatry and Gnosticism but secret society and when I reached out to them they recommended me to the Eastern Star which is their order for women that also goes into very secret teachings there but the order that I

I ended up getting involved in called the Golden Dawn was started by three master mason's and brought a lot of Masonic ideas and symbolism because Freemasonry can be very ritualistic and theatrical. Also brought in Rosicrucianism, which is another philosophy kind of taking, it's an esoteric philosophy. So I've heard it said that what Rosicrucians kind of think about or use as a philosophy, the Golden Dawn would practice. And so I ended up being led to the Golden Dawn, which took a lot of, really I ended up being led there because I saw these tarot cards that were glowing and they ended up being the thoth tarot deck by a man named Alistair Crowley. And he's known as the most wicked man to have ever lived. He is, he actually popularized

a lot of wicked things here in America. Like what? Well, bringing the occult over here, but Alistair Crowley's form of magic and was so gross, a lot to do with the belief that sexual fluids have more magical power. Is this sex magic? This would be, but he would even take that to the nth degree, including children. very, very awful things that are said about him. And he brought that here to the United States.

Yeah, at least popularized it. Yeah. And I believe he was on the Beatles cover, Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club band. And he was very pushed by the music industry at one point. So Alistair Crowley, you said that's his name. you saw these tarot cards or tarot cards. Where did you see them? I was just at a metaphysical shop.

Okay. You saw them. You felt like they started glowing. As you said, you thought that these entities were kind of showing you the direction to go, the things to buy, what to focus on based on glowing. You saw the Freemasonry Lodge, which was glowing. So you felt like, okay, I got to go that direction. That's how you found the Golden Dawn occult.

One thing led to another. And then you found these tarot cards, which you saw. said were tarot cards of Thoth, which was the entity that was at the beginning of that secret book, right? Yes. It feels like one of those weird, like, kind of full-time. I'm just making sure that everyone has it kind of mapped because, yeah, Satan uses these things and pieces them together and kind of like an upside down of what can be like a beautiful

testimony of redemption is also like a testimony of darkness for those that he's trying to lead astray. And so that's how all of those pieces kind of. came together. So you're in this metaphysical shop. You see these tarot cards. You feel like they're glowing. They're created by this very, very evil, pedophilic, sexually predatory, so-called magician, Alistair Crowley. You buy the tarot cards? Yes. And then what happens from there? Yeah. I just spent almost all of my time trying to take the images into my psyche, trying to really take this tarot deck in and started dreaming about them, started practicing tarot. And from that deck and the Alistair Crowley information is how I learned about the Golden Dawn really, how I got introduced

and felt that definitely played a big part in me feeling like this was the next step, was joining this Golden Dawn. And Alistair Crowley was in the Golden Dawn, the original Golden Dawn. And so I I really thought, okay, this is the most wicked man to ever live. I tried to make my own justifications of what is good and what is evil and trying to say, well, I was going to join the Eastern Star. I have family members that were involved in Freemasonry, and that was one of the things they were involved in. So that sounds good, but their symbol is of an upside-down pentagram. So that's bad. But the Golden Dawn has a cross symbol. at least a cross involved in the symbol, so that must be good.

But I kept just... Interesting. Yes. Thinking that I just... It took me a while and a lot of back and forth before really reaching out. And I... There was an order in my area. The original Golden Dawn ended a long time ago, but now there are people who have orders.

And I was living in L.A. at the time that had an order where they practiced the same magical system. And so reached out to them. and a man asked me to meet him at a coffee shop in Silver Lake. And when we started talking everything that he was saying to me was exactly what I'd been led to from astrology, Kabbalah, the Egyptian deities, taro, all these things was exactly what I had been being led to. So it was like, wow, this man speaking my language. I can actually have a conversation with this person.

And I was really excited. and the words like you were called to this were used. So it just felt like I was about to get in on the secret club that my alien entities, my friends had been preparing me before. What were some other things that he was saying that resonated with you? It was really the way that he spoke in a very deep, esoteric way, talking about the great work. I had been practicing alchemy, which has to do with the great work.

What's the great work? It's kind of what they call the work of being in this magical order. You're doing the great work. Alchemy is also called the great work. And it has a lot to do with something called transmuting where you're taking gross matter and it's being transmitted to gold. But more in a your soul allegedly is going from being on this lower level to you go through transmutation until you become basically gold. It's like demonic sanctification. Yes. Yes. Okay. And so it was really exciting for someone to be talking about the things that I so deeply believed was my next step. So this is the moment that you felt finally all that I've been working toward that I've been listening to, all of the, even the drugs that I've been doing, the painting in my apartment, that has led me to this moment. It felt like divine providence. Yes. And so what happened from there? I was asked to go to a Freemason Lodge to be initiated and I was so excited and I remember I was listening to the soundtrack for Fantasmic on the way there because I felt like all the sorcery and the themes in Disney I finally understood what they meant and I was going to go live it out for real though. Wow.

I truly wasn't afraid. I was just excited and they had me. Yeah. When I got there, there was a woman on the top of the stairs waiting for me in a full black robe with a hood. Did that scare you at all? Or were you kind of used to that kind of imagery? Yeah. It made sense given all the things I'd been studying and pouring my life into.

I wasn't working at the time other than DoorDash here and there. I was being supported by my family. So all my time went into obsessively studying these things. So it just made sense. And I was put in a real. room. I was also put in a black robe. I had to wear red socks. And I was told not so much to pray, but to meditate, to prepare myself for this, for this ritual. And the ritual itself, I was hoodwinked, so I couldn't see. And it was very dark. A lot of it had to do with taking John 1-5 out of

context, the idea that you're going into the darkness to shine the light of knowledge in it, the secret knowledge. A lot of symbolism to do with duality, darkness and light, and ancient Egyptian hermeticism. And there was a sword put to my neck swearing that I would never share what I learned. A lot of scary, very scary. I didn't think it was scary at the time. You thought it was sacred. Yes.

I thought it was serious. Yes. And I'd also been in a sorority where they're similar like theatrics and don't tell anyone. And so I remember telling one of them like, oh, I'm not scared of. I went through something similar. But to me, again, it made sense. There was a heaviness to it. Like it felt like you're saying sacred.

But yeah, so I was initiated. I took a lot of pride in thinking that I was, again, special, had been called to this. And I continued going to the Masonic Lodge to do, to practice, to learn. and there was a time where we spent like 12-hour days for a couple days, all just doing invocation rituals, sigils, learning hermetic magic. And I would have still said I was a Christian, which is amazing. I would bow down to a golden idol before entering this room. I would, these invocations of these demonic entities were bowing

my face down before golden idols and we'd take communion, it makes me emotional, but we'd take communion, or they call it Eucharist to Osiris, who's an Egyptian deity with bread and wine. And I thought I was getting closer to Christ because that's what we were told. We would use the name Jesus Christ, but Jesus was someone that you become, someone that you attain to. I just thought I had a deeper understanding of what it meant to be Christian, but I was worshiping demons and I was becoming more and more depraved sexually. And in every other way, my gender, or not my gender, but my sexual identity I got involved in sex magic, which really came with it, my belief, which is taught that the height of sexual, you know, pleasure is a more powerful time to manifest.

So it was still the law of attraction. It's just if you go down to its core, how the original teaching is more so to practice it. Just absolutely wicked. Are they like orgies with people of all different kinds of genders? I personally didn't partake in in them with other people, but in my own, in my own practice. Right. Was practicing that. So because the thought is that like orgasm gives you greater access to the supernatural and you can more effectively manifest. Yes. What you want. Yeah.

It's seen as a very powerful energy that at that point, if you hold in your mind the thing that you're trying to manifest that that moment is the most powerful moment to manifest that. Also I was very unhealthy from the drug use and all that, so I didn't personally have a cycle, but I really wanted to because the idea of menstrual blood is seen as powerful, powerful for releasing and powerful blood in general, powerful for magical practices. So when I see people doing things like abortion rituals or releasing, you know, seeing it as a practice, as a something magical, it makes sense with the lies that I was believing back then, which is so upsetting. But when you really get into the occult and you see like the belief system regarding blood, regarding sexual things, regarding duality and fluidity and none of what I'm seeing in the culture. is surprising. Talk a little bit more about that abortion ritual because, shockingly, I saw a post

by Cosmopolitan on Instagram that was basically talking about abortion like a satanic ritual. And yeah, we have it up right there. Satanic abortion ceremony. We've actually seen the Satanic Temple try to carve out exceptions in states that have passed pro-life legislation, carve out exceptions for religious freedom for them to say, well, it is part of our religious freedom to sacrifice basically unborn babies. And so you're saying that that whole thing doesn't surprise you because they see blood as powerful. And also, I guess, child sacrifice. So is that something you saw and experienced? Yeah. It was more something that I believed and saw in terms of what I was learning and more as a philosophy, I didn't get to the point where it was being practiced, but if it had

started to, praise God that I was saved before then, but if it had started to, it would have made sense to me. Yeah, based on what I was fully believing and thought was good. I didn't think it was wrong. I thought it was good. That can be so disturbing about this. I thought it was good that you're, you know, you are God of your own body and your, you're, you know, you are God of your own body and you're, why would you let a man tell you that there's something wrong with using your own blood for magical practices or using your body autonomously was seen as a way to conduct magic? And it was also glorified that, you know, we're going back to our pagan roots. And just this scene almost hand in hand with woman empowerment, self empowerment,

ultimately again, making yourself out to be God. Yeah. And it just reminds me that it is once again a subversion, a perversion of, of what Jesus said because Jesus spilled his own blood. He gave his own flesh as a sacrifice once and for all that covers our sin. But the occult is saying you have to spill your blood. You have to give your body to make a sacrifice to whatever deity it is in that you will receive the power to be your own God.

So it's this kind of, as you said, self-deification. and self-worship and being your own savior, which we hear that language a lot in non-occult spaces and very, like, beautiful female empowerment spaces. We hear that from people like Glennon Doyle. We hear that from people like Rachel Hollis. We hear that from people like Bray Brown, all these beautiful, blonde, wealthy, successful women

who seem to, at least in some cases, have these great relationships that, whether they're saying those words or not, they are saying the same message that you can get what you want by loving yourself enough and by being your own leader, being your own God, following your heart, you can basically manifest the life that you want. And if you love yourself enough, it will unlock all of these inner powers that you have inside to manifest good things. Is that a parallel that you see in the mainstream? Yes, absolutely. And knowing where it comes from so disturbing because, well, one, you know where it comes from. It goes back to Genesis

3. It is that lie that, you know, you can be your own God. And for me, learning the knowledge of both good and evil, your eyes will be opened and you'll become like God. And also to what you're saying, again, the teaching was Jesus is a type to become. It diminishes Jesus. It cuts away his deity or that he's preeminent or the truth about who he is. And instead, it's self-empowerment. And even whether it's your blood or someone else's, blood, again, stripping from the Bible, that it has power. And so much of what we're doing in that Freemason ritual room was taking the Bible. Like we would during rituals use like a Psalm, Psalm 51, I believe, but in Latin or Kabbalah and Gemitria basically says, you know, the Bible, yes, but you have to read it in a code. and the Hebrew letters have numerical value,

and it's all the secret, the Bible becomes secret knowledge. And doing banishing rituals, saying the names of God, the Hebrew names of God, and the Lord's prayer to perform occult rituals, trying to take as though also the ritual room was set up like the tabernacle. So it's like taking from the Bible

and trying to suck power for me. Like I want to make my own will be done there's power here and then totally perverting the Bible again to make you God it's truly Luciferianism at heart and was so entrapping because thinking no we are using the Bible and learning the names of God and Hebrew and all these things I am a Christian I just have the secret knowledge that you don't and so again if you would have I would have talked about Jesus God the Bible being a Christian but my definitions of all those terms and And the way that I was practicing it was opposed to God and completely different.

Talk about Christ consciousness. Yes. That, yeah, that goes into the same idea. That word tends to be more with the new age, but the idea that Christ is like this consciousness, like almost that he had, he attained this level of consciousness that you can to and step into that power. And almost the idea of as Christ was you can be if you just are. as he is and ascend to that level and a lot of the time it has to do with your higher power and awakening. But usually those awakening ways are very new age, very eastern. And again, cutting away who Jesus is, he's no longer the savior. You are because you can be him, which is a total lie

and could have never saved me. I was getting deeper and deeper into darkness. Yes. And I've seeing people who would say that they're Christians, but then I see that language of Christ consciousness or becoming Christ, not becoming like Christ, but taking on, becoming the mind of Christ, which really doesn't mean following after his words in scripture. It really means, as you said, becoming a little God and attaining to the highest form of humanity or even transcending that. How did you get out of the occult and come to Christ? Yeah. Well, I was deep into practicing that. It was my whole life. And I just had moments of realizing how depraved I was. There's a moment where I looked in the mirror again and I heard this voice saying, it's crazy how evil becomes

you, but it was this voice that was not my own. And it was very upsetting to say the least. But I had thought, this might be evil what I'm doing. I don't really know, but I can just go back to doing what's right later. Like I thought there's a difference between doing something that might be evil and being evil, but it was in that moment I realized, like, who I am inside, like, constantly doing evil things. Like, this is way worse than I thought. And again, in the order, we were practicing things that involve the Bible. And I just read the Bhagavad Gita, which is a Hindu text as it is, which is, very long, basically their scripture with commentary. So I was very prideful thinking, I read that. I might as well read the Bible. It's just another, it's just another one of sacred text.

And there must be something to it because that's what we're using here. And I read that you can tell a tree by its fruit. I probably was in Matthew 7. And I didn't really know what that meant, but I knew it pierced me that the fruit of the people in this order, including me, but even the highest up in the order, they're just as depraved as me. They're taking cigarette breaks, not like that has anything to do with salvation, but if they can control the universe, like, why are they addicted to cigarettes? Just little things that didn't quite add up. And also just knowing that they're just as broken as me kind of gave me pause. And then another thing was I read in 2 Corinthians 1114 that Satan masquerades as an angel of life.

light. And I kept thinking, how can this be bad? It's light work or making excuses. But when I read that, I realized, no, Satan is behind this. I always felt that deep down, but I wanted to find out for myself. I didn't mention this, but I had these abduction experiences. Well, one abduction experience, multiple contact experiences, and the abduction was the first time that I thought maybe these are evil. very scary things. So there had been that little bit of doubt that made me think maybe evil was behind this. And reading that verse again, pierced my heart where I realized, no, Satan is behind what I'm doing. But I was still so prideful that I didn't turn from what I was doing. And then one night, I remembered Genesis 3. I just remembered that the lie, the lie in the garden was that if you eat

from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, your eyes will be opened and you'll be like God knowing good and evil. And I just knew that Satan is behind this. It led to the fall. It wasn't actually a good thing. And it's leading to a great fall in my life. I was so lost. But still, I didn't turn. I just thought, I don't know who I am apart from this. I don't know who I am. This is all that I know. So I just kept going. And then one night in my studio apartment, it was just like any other night and I was walking across and I was spiritually attacked, which would happen. And I fell to my knees and it felt like my soul was being sucked out into just utter darkness and I had no control over it. And I cried out, Jesus Christ saved me. And I meant it. And in that moment, just like that,

I felt the peace that I'd been longing for my entire life. And I knew that it was the God of the Bible, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit who saved me, who delivered me from that attack and that it was not hard for him. All that darkness that I was tied up in that I thought I would never escape. It was not hard for him to deliver me from. And I was shaking because I realized if the God of the Bible is real, which he is, then he says that sorcery is an abomination. divination, all these practices that I'm doing, this is scary. So I got out my Bible and I started reading it still thinking I had the secret knowledge, but it didn't matter because as I was reading it, it was like I was being filled, like I was actually eating, whereas every other thing that I read

it would leave me hungrier and emptier and I would keep searching and searching and searching, always learning, never coming to the knowledge of the truth. But with this, it was like satisfying me. and I just kept reading it and reading it and really to learn, to learn that God is holy. I didn't understand that. I thought God I could be God. God was just like me, but that God is giving me every good thing that I've ever had. And yet I have sinned against this holy God truly. In my case, it's very clear for me to see that I sinned, but that I'd sinned against God and that there's a just punishment for sin.

I really, I did in a sense have a sense of impending doom like fear, but learning that the punishment for sin is just and it is a very real place called hell, but that God is love and that he sent Jesus Christ, not me, not someone that you can be, but Jesus Christ, God incarnate, coming to earth, living a perfect life that I clearly did not live, even though he was tempted as I was, and then going to the cross, despising the shame, being beaten, mocked, scourge, and crucified, and then dying on that cross. And on that cross, he bore my sin, like me bowing down to those golden idols, me living this lifestyle, he bore that in my place and that he bore God's wrath for that in my place, and that he died and rose again as a one meteorator between God

and man and reading that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. And no one comes to the father, except through him. I'd been trying to find all these back doors. None of them worked, but that when I repented of my sin and turned from my rebellion against this God who, again, has given me every good thing that I've ever received and put my faith in Christ alone for my salvation, that I could be washed white as snow. That reality was stunning to me because I knew that I was dirty and to be made a new creation in Christ, that there's no condemnation in Christ that you're born again, The reality of that was so, I mean, beyond amazing to me. And then I just kept reading it.

I locked myself away. I realized for the first time I could get sober. I'd been addicted for many, many, many years. Thought I would die an addict. I just got sober. I knew that the Lord was with me. He was with me and spoke to me through his word. And I could run to him in prayer.

And then, yeah, I've just been following him. and I'm truly amazed at who God truly is, which is so, he's so much better than I could have never been God. I could have never saved myself. I could have never pulled myself up by the bootstraps. But God truly saved me and has given me new life in him and healed me from so, so many things. And so you left the occult. Yeah.

And you started going to church. Tell us about one of the first churches that you walked into. And you realized, if I remember correctly, that this was actually not a church that she wanted to end up at. And it's interesting to me that you had that discernment. Oh, yeah. Well, I was really hungry. And I'd been reading the word for a while and listening to some sermons before actually taking that step of going to a church. And I was living in Hollywood at the time right in the center of Hollywood in the closest church to me.

I just thought, well, I'll go. All churches are probably the same. It was a Methodist church. And I mean, it was a female pastor and all that she talked about was like how they were going to get more LBGTQ rights in the church. They were going to fight for all these causes. And it just felt like this town hall like social justice meeting. And I was I was starving. Like it took so much for me to walk to that church.

And to be met with that, I was. so confused on like what, what was that? Just deeply confused. So praise God that I found this other church where the pastor, it was a very, very small church, it was a plant and the pastor and his wife so graciously sat with me and walked me through scripture and I had a really hard time with different doctrines and they just walked me through it and were patient with me. And God really use that to grow me as I was involved in that local body. Wow, that's amazing. And also that the Holy Spirit obviously convicted you away from that. And such a good, like, such a good reminder for us that, like, people are walking into our church is hungry for the word of God. Yes.

Hungry for the gospel. And we need to give that. How did you meet your husband? Oh, we met him at my church. And we actually both moved from California at almost the exact same time. we were on the worship team together and it was it's kind of a hilarious story of a lot of friendship and awkwardness and um but it's just been so cool how god has used him and used his love for the lord and his just the way he selflessly serves me and points me to scripture and washes me with the water of the word uh i learned god has taught me so much about what love is especially romantic love through my husband. There, you know, there's,

God uses this marriage in many ways to sanctify me because, you know, childhood sexual abuse, a lifetime of sin, abusive relationships. I'm coming in with so much baggage. And God has been so kind to use this relationship to point me to the character of God and to show me the way that he has designed love to be between a man and a woman and those different roles. And I'm just so blessed and thankful. to be able to walk this out with him by my side.

Yes, that is so beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing your testimony. And if people want to hear more from you, you talk a lot about the differences between the New Age and Christianity, how people need to be on the lookout for that in culture. And also within subsets of the church or even people who call themselves Christians using manifestation, name it and claim it, you talk a lot about all of that.

If people want to hear more about that from you, where can they go? Yeah. You can find me on YouTube, Jack Marino Chen, and the same as on Instagram. And then I also have a podcast with Dorian Virtue and Jen Mesa called New Age to New Heart, which is on YouTube as well as Spotify and Apple. Okay. Thank you so much for joining us and for the courage to share your testimony. I know it's going to encourage so many people. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.