Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - REPLAY: Holy Sexuality with Dr. Christopher Yuan

Episode Date: January 17, 2020

Dr. Christopher Yuan tells his story of transformation from an agnostic gay man to a redeemed Bible professor. Not only did God turn his unbelief into belief, but God also freed him from the bondage of drugs and promiscuity. Our interview includes discussion of sexual identity, drug addiction, incarceration, and HIV. Dr. Yuan gives insight into the biblical definition of sexuality and how Christians can lovingly approach this topic with others. Afterward, I give my takes on North Korea and the epidemic of suicide. Also: Another "Thing I Don't Get."

Hey guys, it's Allie with CRTV's Relatable, where I am every Wednesday. I hope that y'all are having a great week. I'm super excited about today's podcast. You guys are going to hear me interview Dr. Christopher Yuan, who is a Christian scholar, teacher, speaker, and author who was previously a practicing gay man as well as a convicted drug dealer. And needless to say, his journey to Christ is an extremely powerful testimony. So you're not only going to hear his story, but he is going to give us insight into what the Bible truly says about homosexuality, how the church is dealing with homosexuality, and how we as Christians can minister to our homosexual friends. You guys have been asking me a lot about this particular subject, but I thought it would be better that you could hear someone who has firsthand experience in

this, who has a very compassionate, empathetic, biblical take on sexuality. So I'm so excited for you to hear that. And then after that, this is kind of a long podcast. After that, I'm going to briefly touch on North Korea, what I think about, everything that's been happening, the suicides of Kate Spade and Anthony Bourdain, and then a thing that I just don't get, which is a section that I sometimes put it into my podcast. I haven't done that one in a while. Like I said, this is going to be a little bit of a longer podcast. So you are welcome to those of you who have asked for a longer format, and I am sorry to those of you who only want like a 30 minute podcast. You can listen to this in chunks. It'll last you all week. Okay, here we go with the interview with Dr. Christopher Yuan.

Christopher, thank you so much for joining me. If you could first tell us who you are and what you do. Sure. My name's Christopher Yuan. And I speak on the topic of faith and sexuality, specifically on homosexuality, on reaching the gay community, how do we minister better? on this topic and especially how do we help those who are Christian and yet experience St. Texas attractions. Wow. That is a really big and really relevant and very hot topic right now, especially with all of the changes in the church and changes really in the sexual and moral revolution that

we seem to be happening having right now. How did you get into this specific niche of theology and Christianity? Well, it's kind of like not my choice. You know, that's the way God works. A lot of it is actually through my own personal experience. I wasn't raised in a Christian home. My parents raised with very traditional Chinese values. If you ever notice, I am Chinese.

And my parents immigrated here from Taiwan. They were born in China, raised in Taiwan. They came here to the U.S. with graduate school. And, you know, as a Chinese American, we have strong family values, but kind of void of really any faith at all, didn't own a Bible. But I had a secret that I kept hidden through high school college, human the Marine Corps reserves. I went to dental school in my early 20s, and it was there that I finally came out of the closet. I began living openly as a gay man. So I decided to go home, break the news to my parents, and I told them I'm gay.

my mom kind of being your typical Asian mother wanted to control the situation I know have you ever heard of Tiger Moms so control the situation gave me an ultimatum she said you must either choose the family or choose that and for me this wasn't a choice this is who I am I mean that's what the world

told me then this is the world that's telling us now your sexuality is who you are and I bought that right so I told my mom this is not a choice this is who I am and I thought well if you can't accept me I have no other choice but to leave, left home, devastated my mom. And it's so amazing how God used crisis in our lives to turn us to him. My parents who weren't searching for God turned to him and they became Christians through that crisis. Wow. And when did you realize that you were gay? And what was that initial

process like? Well, you know, I was about nine years old when I first realized I had these attractions. I actually came across pornography at that time when I was nine at a friend's house, of all things. A trusted friend's house that my parents knew. So it wasn't like one of my friends. It was actually my parents' friends. And it was then that I realized that I had these desires. I didn't know what to do with it. And I just, I didn't tell anyone. I was afraid to really tell anyone. This is back in the 70s. So I just kept it hidden. And I really didn't tell anyone. And then as you grew up, you kind of realized, okay, this is the lifestyle that I am going to live. Like you said, that's who I am.

And how did you decide, okay, I'm going to tell my parents no matter what it costs me and this is the path that I'm going to take. Was that really difficult? Yeah. I mean, so after realizing, you know, so I kind of nuanced a little bit about identifying as gay. I first realized that I had these desires, and it wasn't until my 20s that I thought, oh, this is who I am. And, you know, it was, you know, difficult coming to grasp with all these things. And it wasn't until later on that I realized, well, this isn't going away.

And I didn't have any framework to think through these things. That's why, you know, we have all these questions. Well, someone has these desires for as long as they remember and they didn't choose them. And this is why I think it's so important that we, I often tell them, this is in my next book coming up, that I said, human sexuality can't be understood apart from theological anthropology. And I know that sounds really big, but what that really means is simply that we're created in the image of God. And of course, that's good. We have value, dignity. So that means that we shouldn't demean anyone.

We should view every person. I mean, even the worst criminal is created in God's image. But then the second part that is so important is that that image has been distorted. So that in that criminal, even though he has that image, he has a sin nature. And the reality is we all have that sin nature. And when I realize now that that helps me to think through not only all my behaviors and thoughts, but that really helps me to understand my sexuality. But at the time, when you came out to your parents, like you said,

you had no biblical framework through which you were analyzing this. So you weren't thinking about a sin nature. Tell me about those first few years after you decided to leave home and live openly as a gay man, what that was like. Yeah, I was in dental school, so I was in my 20s. And I think I just did what most people in their 20-year-olds do when they don't know Christ. And that was, have fun, enjoy life. And I partied. I would go out with my friends.

It just happened that the dental school was about three blocks away from the gay clubs, and I went there every weekend. And to be honest, I made some of the greatest friends there. The people in the gay community, my gay friends, are some of the most loving, nice people. And that's why I get really frustrated when we treat all people in the gay community like the gay activists, the angry gay activists that hate us. and or that, I mean, sometimes we're cynical, unfortunately. But we need to realize that actually a majority of gays and lesbians are not like that. And these were just really wonderful people that just cried with me when I cried, had fun, laugh when I laughed, and they were just really good, dear friends of mine.

And they accepted me. And I think sometimes that feeling of acceptance and belonging, should be coming from the body of Christ. And I think sometimes we have some things to learn from the gay community in their love. So they accepted me. I was going out to the gay clubs. Unfortunately, at the gay clubs, I started doing drugs, which meant I'd have to pay for my habit somehow as a poor dental student.

So I did that by selling drugs. And I sold to friends, classmates, even a professor. Eventually, I actually was expelled from dental school just three months before I was received my doctorate. I then moved to Atlanta, Georgia, and I kept doing what I knew, how to do best with just sell drugs. And my parents really had no clue that I was doing drugs, but they knew my biggest need was no Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. So they tried to reach out with me. I wanted nothing to do with it. My parents came to visit me one time. I told them to get out.

And my dad, before he left, gave me his very first Bible. And they left, he left on our kitchen counter, and I threw in the trash can, which just really shows. how much I hated God, I hated a religion, I wanted nothing to do with the Bible. And it was really obvious after that visit that my parents knew that I was totally hopeless and completely unreachable. And tell me what changed. Tell me what changed. The amazing thing was that they didn't focus upon that hopelessness.

You know, oftentimes parents, and I don't blame them. It's just things are getting worse and worse and worse with their kids. They're prodigal, whatever it is. And it's so easy to give up on hope. And I just praise the Lord that our God is not a God of hopelessness. Our God is a God of hope. And they clung to that hope. And even when things were just getting worse,

and they enlisted over 100 prayer warriors to pray for me from their church, from the Bible study fellowship group. And my mother began to pray bold prayer, which was, God, do whatever it takes, whatever it takes. That's a scary prayer for Mother to make. But she was desperate. In her desperation, she fasted every Monday for seven years. She passed it 39 days on my behalf. She knew she could take nothing short of a miracle. She spent hours in a prayer closet and she knew it was going to take a miracle. So tell me what happened. How did those prayers manifest itself in your life?

Well, you know, it's a scary prayer for Mother to pray to do whatever it takes. I think oftentimes we will pray, God just, you know, whatever it takes, but, like we add that but, right? You know, but then we add our little caveat, you know, keep my loved one safe, keep them, you know, off the street, keep them out of prison. But you know what? It might be, and sometimes, especially in those extreme cases, it probably does mean maybe being homeless or being put in prison to get our attention. I mean, look through the Bible.

how many times God used prison to awaken, to get someone's attention, or to really sharpen and grow someone. I mean, it's just amazing. And so my mom was, she was scared, but she just said, I don't know God, but whatever. And God answered her prayer with a bang on my door, open up my door and on my front doorstep for 12 federal drug enforcement agents. Wow. some two separate Shepherd dogs. So I found myself in jail.

Oh my gosh. I called home. You know, that's probably the last place you want to call. And, you know, I just,

I was still expecting my parents like their old, old person, you know, and ones of, you know, how my mom probably would have responded

in the past, like, you know, what did you do or you deserve it or whatever. And her first words to me,

when she picked up the phone was, are you okay? No words of condemnation, just words of unconditional love and grace. And I'm reminded what Paul says in Romans chapter 2, verse 4, that it's God's kindness that leads us. That's exactly the verse that came to mind for me. It's not his anger.

You know, it's not God's judgment that brings us to repentance. It's his kindness. And that's such a good lesson for us, not just parents, It's for every one of us as Christians that in the midst of our duty and calling to the clenarian voice and to stand for truth, it's still God's kindness and it should be our kindness that leads people to Christ, that leads people to repentance. Exactly.

So how long were you in jail and when did you actually accept Christ? Yeah, you know, it's so funny because, like, my mother, I didn't tell my story here. we don't have enough time, but in my first book, The Memoir, out of a far country, a gay stern journey, the God of Broken Mother's Word for Hope, we kind of tell our stories, alternating chapters. She wrote chapter one, I chapter two, she wrote chapter three, but she tells her story of how she was going to end her life,

and God just amazingly used that and brought her to Christ. But for me, so hers was like a 180, changed from dark to lightness, from unbelief to belief, like in one day, for me, I kind of say I was pretty hard-headed, so it took a while, and I think that's why God put me in prison because he knew that I was going to fight, I was going to resist, and my heart was so hardened. So it was prison, and you think, well, can things get any worse? So I will, before I get to that, three days after I was in prison, I was walking on the cell block and I passed my garbage can and I thought, this is my life. I went closer and there was something right on top of the trash.

I bent over and picked it up and it was a Gideon's New Testament. Wow. Back to my cell and I began reading it. That's a creep. So it came full circle from you throwing the Bible away to there being a Bible by a trash can, right? So humorous. And so I took it, began reading it. and, you know, we call the Bible the gospel good news, which it is, but as I was reading it,

it was not good news for me because I was being convicted of my sin and my rebellion against my parents against the government, against God, and I thought, this is not good. Does it feel good? This does not feel good. It's so funny. God under sovereignty before the day before I was to be sentenced, I was. I was reading and I just happened to read, happened to read Psalm 52, which is when David was so convicted and he was saying, God, against you alone have I sinned? And I'm like, that's my worst.

It was just amazing, I mean, amazing that God was doing that. But for me, it wasn't good news. And I thought, man, this is not good news. I thought things going to get worse. Well, I was wrong. So a couple weeks after I was incarcerated, I was brought to the nurse's office. And the nurse, I just knew something. wasn't right. She wrote something out of, she was like, she couldn't even speak almost. She wrote

something on a piece of paper, slitters across the destiny. And on this piece of paper, I saw three letters and a symbol, and it read H-I-V-Poskid. The days after we're dark. I mean, I couldn't even go back to the cell block and cry. I mean, I had to be hard like the other inmates. And I had to, you know, I just remember that night after that whole day of, you know, trying to stay strong. I just wept in my bed and a couple days later they moved me to another cell or another cell block on my way to transition to transfer to the prison where I was going to do time and they put me in a cell with no one else. I was in a cell all by myself and I remember it clear as the other. I was lying there and they have metal bunks so I was lying there and I look at the

cold metal bunk above me and there was just graffiti profanity and somebody had to script or something in the corner, and it read, if you're bored, read Jeremiah 29-11. What? For I know the plans that I have for you, declares the Lord, plans to prosper you, not to harm you. Plants give you hope and a future. And, you know, I mean, there could have been any verse in the whole Bible. And God used that verse penned by prophet thousands of years ago to a rebellious nation,

Israel, who was in exile that God was saying, I'm going to take you out of exile. I have a plan for you. And God was telling me that he also had a plan for me. And, you know, Ali, I had no clue, no clue where that plan was going to take me. But God just simply gave you enough faith to get through that one day and the next and the next. Wow. So, you know, it was the transformation was gradually. You asked, when did I become a Christian?

Well, I don't think it was at that point, but it was definitely God was working on me. So the year after, I had all this time on my hands. So I was reading the Bible, and I was just growing in Christ, and I came across some passages that seemed to condemn that core part of who I thought, oh, I was my sexuality. So I went to a chaplain, asked him his opinion, and to my surprise, this chapel told me that the Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality. And he gave me a book explaining that view.

This book explains that view, and he gave it to me. And so I'm thinking, man, this is great. I can have my cake, and I can eat it too. I mean, who wants to change, right? I mean, if this is who I am, God has to accept me as who I am. I took that book, and I had that book in one hand and the Bible and the other. And, Ali, let me tell you, from a human perspective, I had every reason in the world to accept what that book is claiming to justify the way I had been living.

Yeah. This is the other miracle. It was God's indwelling Holy Spirit that convicted me that those assertions were a clear distortion of God, His Word, and his unmistakable condemnations against same-sex relationships. I couldn't even finish the book and I gave it back to the chapter. That in and of itself is amazing because how many people have I heard of even that have been in your same position and when they have the Bible and they have a book that feels good to them and caters to what they want to feel and who they think they are, how many people end up putting the Bible down and say, no, this book is correct.

So it's amazing and it really is just a testament to the relentlessness of the Holy Spirit in your life. that even in the early stages of your faith, even if maybe you weren't even fully a Christian yet, that the Holy Spirit put on your heart that, no, this is the way. Walk in it. Exactly. Exactly. It's just, I mean, that's a Holy Spirit's job. I tell, you know, it's his, the Holy Spirit's job is to convict us of sin.

And, you know, sometimes, you know, people ask, well, can a gay person be gay and a Christian? And, you know, are they going to heaven or are they going to hell? And it's like, I don't know the eternal answer, the answer to this, that person's eternity, because honestly, that person's story isn't finished yet. Exactly. So God can still work. I mean, tomorrow next year. But I can say that they are still living in sin, and there will be consequences for that.

And if we're living in sin and there is, sorry, that was my mom. That's okay. Don't worry. Yeah. And if there is, you know, if there is the holy, Spirit is abiding in you and there's conviction of sin, then, you know, he's going to convict you of that sin. And if there isn't that conviction of sin, that there's a possibility that the Holy Spirit might not be abiding in that person, which, so we need to be praying for that. We need to be

praying for the Holy Spirit. We need to be praying for conversion. We need to be praying for conviction. Exactly. So how long, when did you get out of jail? So it was, you know, actually, so it was after that, so I was sentenced to six years. Okay. And it was while, it was during that first year. So after, you know, I gave the book, I just started studying God's word. I turned to the Bible alone. And, you know, I went through every verse, every chapter, every scripture looking for justification.

Right. I want to find any type of positive affirmation for monogamous, same, sex, relationship. And honestly, Ali, I couldn't find anything that was a positive affirmation. So I was at a turning point. Either abandon God in his word, live as a gay man, pursue a monogamous same-sex relationship by allowing my desire. See, that's the important thing. By allowing my sexual desires, sexual detractions to dictate not only who I was, but also how I lived.

Or abandon pursuing a same-sex relationship by the same-sex relationship by the same-sex relationship by, free myself from my sexuality by not allowing my sexual desires to control who I am and live as a follower of Jesus Christ. My decision was clear and obvious. I followed Jesus. The days, weeks, and the months of accidents passed, and I realized that my sexuality shouldn't be the core of who I am. Because I told myself before God loves me unconditionally, and that's true. But as a sinner, don't we like to add to God's truth? I added, so therefore, God doesn't want me to change. But I realize that unconditional love is not the same thing as unconditional approval of my behavior.

Right. My identity shouldn't be defined by my sexuality. My identity shouldn't be defined by my sexual desires. My identity is not gay, ex-gay, or even heterosexual for that matter. Because my identity as a child of the living God must be in Jesus Christ alone. Right. God says be holy for I am holy. And, you know, I had thought, and I think the church, I felt like the church was telling me in the past, before I became a Christian, that if I were to become a Christian, that if I were to become heterosexual, that the more sexually attracted to women, the more Christian I would be.

I realize that even if I had opposite sex attractions, I would still need to flee temptation. I would still need to put to death my sin nature every day. So heterosexuality isn't the goal. And God never says be heterosexual, for I am heterosexual. but neither did he say be homosexual for I am homosexual. God said be holy for I am only. So I always tell people the opposite of homosexuality is not heterosexuality, but the opposite of homosexuality is holiness.

As a fact, the opposite of any sin struggle is holiness. And I would say it was at this point after about a year of my time in prison that God really convicted me and showed me that it's not just about belief, it's not just about knowledge, but it's about surrender. And that meant surrendering everything about me. You know, Jesus says, you know, if anyone will come after me, he must pick up his cross, you know, and deny himself. Pick up his cross daily and follow me.

And for me, that meant denying everything about me that I had identified in the past, including my sexuality. And I think I was at that time that I can say that after I realized that the surrender during that time, that is when I really surrendered my life fully. to the Lord Jesus Christ. Wow. So if that happened, God did another miracle, so many miracles, and he shortened my sentence from six years to three years, which is really unheard of in the federal system.

And about that time, I had a little over a year left in my prison sentence, so it was about two years into my sentence. And I knew that God was calling me to full-time vocational ministry, and I need to learn more about the Bible. So I called on to my parents and I told them, send me an application to the Bible College that I only ever heard of, which is in our whole time of Chicago called Booty Bible Institute, but they were signs on the other line because I think they both dropped their phones. They made an obligation to me to prison.

I filled it out, and I was so excited until I realized I needed references, not from anybody, but people who knew me as a Christian for at least one year. And I was only being able to persuade a prison chapel and a prison guard and another prison inmate to write my references to Moody's. He simply Booty accepted me, and I always tell people, imagine just the prison. the surprise of my classmates when I answered their question, what did you do this summer? Well, how long do you have? Wow, that's amazing. And you didn't just go to Moody Bible and State. Where else did you go after Moody? Yeah, I went to Wheaton for my graduate school,

got my master's in exegesis, and then I got my doctor to ministry from Bethel Seminary in St. Paul. Wow, that's such an amazing transformation. And like you've said over and over again speaks to God's kindness, his relentless pursuit of us, that there is not a single one of us that are too far off for God to save, that that's exactly why Jesus came, not to save the healthy, but to save the sick. And your testimony is such a powerful example of that. And I love that you have firsthand experience in empathy, not just sympathy, but empathy for one of the most contested topics that we have today. So my question to you is why is this so controversial? Why is it so much easier to talk about the sinful effects of alcoholism or any other sin,

but in speaking of homosexuality, it feels like an affront to someone's entire being? Yeah, I think it's a really important question that you asked, Allie, and I think if we can really grasp the answer to this, I think we'll do a much better job in engaging our neighbors, our coworkers, our loved ones, our friends who identify as gay or lesbian. I think the core issue is identity, as I mentioned earlier. I think as Christians, the way when we approach an unbeliever on this topic of sexuality or we approach a person who identify as gay and most of them are, you know, identify as unbelievers as well as non-Christians. We often approach it, thinking of it, strictly as sinful behavior, which it is.

But I think we need to step back and recognize before we address behavior, we need to address who we are, identity. And again, I'm going to mention this next book that one of my chapters I wrote is is on identity and it's one of my first chapters because I think that's the core issue is identity. That book is called Holy Sexuality in the Gospel, Sex, Design, Relationships, Shaped by God's Grand Story. And the issue is, I know of no other sin issue or simple behavior where it is so closely linked with identity. This is who I am. So let's say adultery. There's there's you know society is not divided on i would say most unbelievers don't have that much of an issue with identity or maybe instead of adultery think of uh sex before marriage yeah i would say

most unbelievers have nothing they have no issue with with sex before marriage as christians um and maybe as other judo-christian um you know religions would would agree that and i'm muslims would probably agree with this that this is sex before marriage is not is a sin It is not right. But that's not associated with who you are. It's still associated with an action. Drinking alcoholism is really associated with an action, which is, well, now, this is a little bit why I'm a little bit, sometimes when people just identify as an alcoholic. I don't agree with that.

That's what I do. That might be what I struggle with. But in general, sexuality has become such an integral aspect of who we are. I mean, if you think about it, Ali, if you have any of your friends that are gay, when I talk about their sexuality, you almost never hear, this is how I am, or this is what I'm attracted to, this is what I feel or this is what I do. It's always now, this is who I am. So this shift from what I feel to who I am, or this shift from how I am to who I am has created a radically distorted view of personhood. And that is why when we talk about homosexuality as a sin, and honestly, I don't, to be more nuanced when I talk with my gay friends, I don't use that phrase anymore because that's too vague. Because when I say that, they hear that as saying, you view my whole person, everything about me as sin.

As wrong. Yeah. Yeah. So I need to help them first be able to separate sexuality and me. Yes, sexuality my influence is an aspect of what I experience, but I would argue and not say that sexuality is an aspect of who I am. And I think as Christians, we often have fallen into that as well. I know many people who walk around say, I'm a straight Christian. I'm like, no, you're not, you're a Christian.

Your sexual desires and your propensity, even for sexual desires, should not be a part of who you are. That's how we are, not who we are. There's a big difference between that. How I am is the distortion of sin and even my desires and whatever that is. That's how I am, you know, the direction of my sexual desires. But that's not who I am. So the question, of course, then, is who am I? And so clear in Genesis, God created us in his own image.

That's who we are. That image that was distorted in Genesis 3, but then we get Jesus Christ in the New Testament, as we get in Colossians 1, that says that, he is the image of living God, and he is the perfect image of God. And so when we come to Christ, what Christ is doing is he's redeeming us, but also restoring the image that has been distorted by sin. What do you say to people? This is something that I am hearing a lot is that, okay,

so the Bible doesn't have any specific affirmation of homosexuality, but, you know, God is love. Love is important. And if two men or two women love each other, unconditionally, why isn't that okay? Is God really against love? We should just be loving each other. I think that's another reason, too, why it's a hard conversation to have because you're not just talking about lust. You could be talking about two married men that have loved each other for 25 years who they very much are a part of each other's life and spirit and being. And you're saying

that that's wrong in God's eyes. How do you break down that kind of redefinition? of love that even some of the churches latched on to. Yeah, I think that's one of the core issues. Love is love. I think that's usually what we hear all the time. Love is love and let people love who they want to love. And I agree with that statement. Love is love.

We need to let people love who they want to love. But I would argue love does not equal sex. Love does not equal even romance. And if we look at scripture, I mean, even in the New Testament, which was written in Greek, love has different words. So there's actually different categories of love. We find the brotherly love, sisterly love, friendship love, that's Phileo. We find the erotic form of love, which is eras.

We have love that is unconditional, that's the agape love. But we also have instances in the Old Testament where they talk about. about love, there's only one word in Hebrew for love, Ahava. And that word, love in the New Testament generally is good, but we have some instances that talk about that love is not good. We have Judah loved Tamar, and that was not good, you know, and so we have these instances of love that is actually not good. So love isn't always love. The right form of love is always good, but I think we need to help people to understand love. So, for example, there's a brother and a sister.

They love each other. That's good. But does that then mean that they should marry one another, right? I mean, that's what I would kind of push back. A father loves his daughter. That's good, right? But does that mean then that the father should marry his daughter or have sex with his daughter? So I think we need to help people to tease that out a little bit more, I think.

What do you know I love because I mean I love chocolate, you know, I love my cat. You know, people will say I love whatever. I love spaghetti. So should you marry spaghetti? Yeah. So love is we can't just, when we say love is love, that sounds great from a service level, but let's let's just recognize, first of all, that love is so multifaceted. We use love in so many different ways. And unfortunately, we have increasingly, we have increasingly, the deepest form of love to be marriage or the deepest form of love to be sex. And I kind of pushed back on that a little bit. And especially Christians, sort of, they're surprised because we hold the traditional marriage,

which of course I do. But then I push back and I said, actually, marriage is not the highest form of love. You know, I'm sure, Ellie, you're really familiar with Justice Kennedy, who wrote the majority opinion for the Obergefell decision. And if you look and your listeners and watchers can look online, the very last paragraph of the decision of Obergefell. 2015, he wrote something that was so profound. He said marriage is the highest ideal of love. And honestly, I think that hit the nail on the head for the way that the world distorts

love and marriage. Marriage is good. It's very good. And it's an expression of love, but it is certainly not the highest ideal of love goddess. If you think about it, all the world religions can claim that their God is love. I'm sorry, their God is loving. But no religion, no book claims that their God is love. But our God is, Jehovah, Yahweh is love. He embodies love. Yeah.

He is, it's an ontological reality of our God. So I think having this discussion, pressing deeper, not arguing, but just having people think through, you know, this definition of love, first of all, when we use love, it's many layers to it. There's many meanings. But also like, well, let's say, I'm not, I'm totally for love. We should, I should love you, Ali.

But that doesn't mean that I should have a romantic relationship with you. I mean, that's, that's love does not equal sex. Love does not equal romance. God calls us all to love. Love your neighbors yourself is the second greatest commandment. But that doesn't mean I should marry my neighbor. Right. And there are different forms.

There are different forms of love that like you said are good in certain. context and quite honestly the argument that love is love is a circular it's a circular argument um because actually love isn't necessarily love if your definition of love isn't what god says love is love is love is the biblical version of love love love is what god says that it is and i can understand why someone who's not a believer would say love is love and say okay that's great but i've actually never thought that that was a great argument to begin with and you make a good point about Because if love is love, then does that mean that you can love your family member the same way that you would love your boyfriend? Or does that mean you can love your pet the same way that you can?

Of course not. And they would say no. But if love is love, who's to say that it's not? Which is why, like you said, it's so important for us as Christians to say, no, love isn't love. Love is what God says that it is. And God is not only love, but love is also God. So you know what I mean by that. not in an idolatrous way, but God defines what love is.

And I think that's, you know, that's the charge that we have as Christians to be ambassadors of that love, but it's difficult. And I know that you've encountered that as well, but I am so encouraged by your story. If you could tell everyone about your book that's coming out, I think, in November. And if they, can they pre-order it? Yes. Okay, so tell us all about that. Sure.

Yeah, so my next book is called Holy Sexuality in the Gospel, Sex, Design, and Relationships, shaped by God's Grand Story. It's actually available now on Amazon. It will be released November 20th, so you can pre-order now, but you won't get it until November 20th or maybe the week before. I'm really excited about it. I've worked out over the past four years. I feel like it's my labor of love, you know, like set sweat and tears. It's probably one of the hardest things I've done.

but I feel like it's one of the most necessary things of the church right now. And basically what it is is a theology of sexuality. And I know people get really scared by that, but it's basically looking at the breadth of scripture, not just the particular passage that say right and wrong, which I think is important, but I think other authors have done a good job of that. But this is looking at what does it mean to be human?

What does it mean to be created in God's image? What does it mean to have a sinful nature? And how does that impact on understanding of sex-designed relationships? I have a couple chapters on marriage, A couple chapters on singleness, a couple chapters on holiness and discipleship. So I'm really excited about it. And if people want to know more about my ministry, just my website is Christopher Yuan.com. And, you know, I'm also on social media as well if they want to follow me there.

Yes. Where can they find you on social media? Yeah, so Twitter is at Christopher Yuan.com. And Facebook, my ministry page is Facebook.com slash Christopher Yuan. Pretty simple. Perfect. Well, I'm really excited for my audience to hear this. I know that they are really going to appreciate it.

You did a great job of giving us perspective. And thank you for your vulnerability and sharing your story and for all of the lives that I know that you're touching just by showing them what crisis done in your life. Well, thank you, Allie, so much for having me on. Yes, thank you. Okay, I hope that you guys enjoyed that. If you have questions for Dr. Yuan, please email them to me,

Allie at the conservative millennial blog.com. I, or I mean, you can reach out to him directly if you want to do that as well. He gave his information in the interview. But I would love to see if Dr. Yuan would indulge us by answering some of our further questions. I actually realized after I interviewed him that there are a few things that I just wish that I had asked him. So I would love to ask him some more questions.

So maybe we can get him back for a Q&A. So if you have any specific questions, if you don't want to reach him, shout to him directly, send them to me, and then I'll have a log of questions, and hopefully I can get him back for another interview, and we can do a kind of Q&A thing. I think that would be really fun. Okay. Next on the docket, North Korea. I have a not so popular conservative take on this, meaning that most Trump voters probably disagree with me. So in case you didn't know, President Trump met with Kim Jong-un, the dictator of North Korea, they met in Singapore this week to discuss denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula, which is unprecedented. He was the first sitting president to meet with

the North Korean ruler, with the North Korean ruler. The meeting apparently went very well. They signed this document that culminated what the U.S. called comprehensive and very productive talks. And here are the four things they apparently agreed upon. The United States and the DPRK commit to establish new U.S. DPRK relations in accordance with the desire of the peoples of the two countries for peace and prosperity. That's number one. Number two, the United States and the DPRK will join their efforts to build a lasting and stable peace regime on the Korean Peninsula. Number three, reaffirming the April 27th, 2018, Panmunjohn declaration. The DPRK commits to work toward complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula. Number four, the

United States and the DPRK commit to recovering P.O.W.M.I.A. remains, including the immediate repatriation of those already identified. So, okay, that all sounds great, but to me, it also sounds pretty vague. Now, I'm not a foreign policy expert, but I didn't see a lot of specificity in that. Let's also remember that North Korea has been promising denuclearization forever, and they haven't actually done it. So I just can't say quite yet that this was this huge gigantic wind that most conservatives and Trump supporters are saying that it was. Now, I hope that it is. I hope President Trump is extremely successful in this. But the other issue I have is how President Trump is now talking about and treating Kim Jong-un. Every conservative media outlet today and yesterday had a

heyday making fun of the outlets like CNN and MSNBC. for having any problem whatsoever with this meeting. They were making fun of these liberal outlets for criticizing the American flag being next to the North Korean flag. But you know what? Maybe for the first time in my life, I actually agree with the liberal media on this, at least in part, in that I absolutely cringed seeing the American flag by the North Korean flag.

I cringed watching President Trump all chummy with Kim Jong-un. I hate everything that he has said about Kim Jong-un. that he's this great guy, that he's a smart guy, that Kim Jong-un loves his people, loves his country. Okay, this is a guy and a nation who has hundreds of thousands of North Koreans in prison camps, who forces his own people to fertilize their crops with human feces, starves his own people, allows no freedom of speech, no freedom of religion at all. People are executed for speaking or worshiping in a way that doesn't comply with the state. If you look at an aerial view of North and South Korea at night, you will see that

South Korea is lit up because, you know, it's a normal country because its cities actually have lights. And then you will see that North Korea is completely dark except for the capital where Kim Jong-un himself is. He is the only one with noticeable electricity. This is a guy who has brutally murdered his own family members. Remember, this is also a guy who sent back one of our own auto-worn beer, a 22-year-old kid, deformed, incapacitated, unable to see or speak, tortured to the brink of death, sit him back to his family to die a few days later. He murdered a citizen of the United States, someone who could have been any one of our friends. And now Kim Jong-un is a good guy who loves his country. Now, I hear that the Warren Bears released some really nice statement about

it all, which great for them. Honestly, God bless them and God be with them. But I cannot imagine that this is easy for them to watch if it's not easy for me to watch. Kim Jong-un is evil. is satanic. He is not a stitch nicer than Hitler. If we were making a deal with Hitler or Stalin or Mao, would we call him a great guy? Would we say, wow, not too many people could have accomplished what Mao has accomplished. That Stalin, he really loves his country. Hitler sure loves his people. I have a special bond with Hitler now. No, no, we wouldn't. When DeVille Chamberlain of UK acquiesce to Germany and flattered Hitler through the Munich Agreement in 1938. How did that go for everyone?

Not that well. Germany got Czechoslovakia, then invaded Poland a year later, leading the UK to declare war on Germany. You don't appease terrorists. They're all the same. They're rats. You don't have to make them feel good about themselves. Now, I'm not saying that this deal is exactly like Neville Chamberlain and Hitler.

It's not. It's more like Reagan and Gorbachev of the Soviet Union. But even though Reagan, and Gorbachev did eventually become friends, Reagan still call the Soviet Union the evil empire. Reagan still was clear about his hatred of communism. And I understand that this is probably Trump flattering him in order to make denuclearization more plausible. I mean, that's exactly what he's trying to do. I understand that he's buttering him up to make sure he actually follows through on his end of the deal. But in my opinion, it's just too much. I just don't think that America,

The greatest superpower in the world needs to kiss the you know what of a nation who we could literally obliterate with one push of a button if we wanted to. Now, all this to say, I hope that this works. I hope that I'm wrong. If by stroking the ego of Kim Jong-un, if by placing the American flag next to the North Korean flag denuclearization happens, if the egregious human rights violations stop. If we can honestly keep the North Korea in check and the people of North Korea are freed, then all of this will be worth it. All of it.

If liberation happens in North Korea, then I won't care about any of this. And I will say, wow, all that stuff that I worried about and complained about was petty nonsense. I just don't know if that's going to be the case, considering how many times they've promised peace but have failed to fulfill that promise. So we will see. I would say that my feelings are of cautious optimism, whereas it seems like a lot of conservatives are just completely optimistic. And I just don't know if we have the logical or historical grounds to be that optimistic. Okay, one thing to say, actually probably kind of a few things to

say about the horrific and very tragic suicides of Anthony Bourdain and Kate Spade. I am so sad for them, their families, their kids, everyone who, loves them, the trend of increasing suicides, especially in this country, is really troubling. And there are all kinds of different explanations for it. And it's always interesting as Christians to watch a non-Christian world grapple with questions that Christians have had the answer to since Christ came to earth. I've heard people say that it's mental health. I've heard people say that it's loneliness. It's copycat syndrome where you hear someone who committed suicide and you're kind of obsessed with it and so you follow through yourself. I think all of these things are part of it.

I don't think they're completely misguided. I've even heard people say that political correctness and victimhood have something to do with it. And on that one, I just don't see the logical or scientific correlation personally. But regardless, ultimately all of these explanations are mostly grasping at straws. We know that the human heart is sick. It is desperately wicked, the Bible says. There is a void in all of us that can only be filled by something bigger than ourselves. There is a longing in all of us to be attached to a greater purpose, to have meaning beyond making money, becoming famous, being successful at work. Loneliness is a part of it. Tragedy can cause it. Purpicelessness does play a major role, but the human heart will never be satisfied without knowing the love of the one who made it.

And that's Jesus. And as I've said before, I know there are plenty of people who are not Christians who are not depressed or suicidal. And there are people who are Christians who are depressed or suicidal. But if all of us, no matter what our religion is, find in ourselves this longing for something bigger, something transcendent, this feeling of being fully accepted, fully known, fully loved to play a part in the grand story of history. Shouldn't that tell us something? If we all have a longing for something greater, doesn't that point to the fact that there is something greater? I mean, it's like that C.S. Lewis quote, if we find within ourselves a longing for something beyond this world, that means that there is something beyond this world. And that's a

paraphrase. If there was nothing more than this life, then you would think that the people who have gotten the most out of life, like Kate Spade and Anthony Bourdain, would be the happiest people in the world. Why is it that the rich and famous are so consistently dissatisfied? Because they've tasted all the world can offer, and they still know it's not enough. They've gotten to the peak of life. They've looked around and they've said, this is it? This is all we've got. And the answer we Christians know is no.

It's not it. That's the whole point of this life, that this life is not it. The point is Jesus, the maker and satisfier of our souls, the only one who sees our innermost beings and can set it free. Jesus is the only religious figure in all of history who instead of saying, okay, here's how you get to God. He said, no, I am coming down to you. Do you know any other faith in the world that's actually predicated on human weakness rather than human strength that emphasizes what humans cannot do rather than what they can? Do you know another religion whose most famous missionaries and adherents as written about in the Bible are quite as messed up and as rag tag and as unexpected as ours are?

Do you know another religion that celebrates human frailty that offers an eternal solution to everything the heart longs for? That offers peace, purpose, fulfillment, community, healing hope? Jesus is the cure for the sickness of the soul. Jesus is the final answer to all of it. Now, this is not to say that we should reject modern medicine. This is not to say that there are no practical solutions to depression, like being more involved in your community, staying in touch with your family. But it is to say that ultimately not a single one of us will ever be satisfied or saved

without knowing Christ. Okay. One final thing that doesn't have to do with any of this. this is just random, something I've noticed and have been thinking about lately. This is a thing I just don't get, which like I said, has been an ending section of my podcast in the past. But today it's actually just something that annoys me that I think that we can all get better at, including myself.

So there's this trend these days, I think promulgated by celebrities and songs and just pop culture in general. And that's this trend of blocking out the haters. It goes along with a trend of, you know, love. loving yourself and being super self-confident. I think that's good to some degree. You can't listen to all the stupid negativity that people throw your way, especially on the internet or else you will just be in a puddle of insecurity all day.

I know that from firsthand experience. You can't. But I do worry that people use this phrase and use this mentality as an excuse to silence legitimate criticism. Newsflash. not everyone who disagrees with you as a hater and some criticism actually needs to be listened to. So have discernment to know the difference between ignorant hate on the internet and real actual feedback that you might need to take in, you might need to listen to and might need to apply to your life.

I also know firsthand that that is very difficult to do. It is much easier and feels much better to say that anyone who criticizes me is just a hater and just wants to see me fail. Sometimes that's not true. And to perpetually think that way is to stunt your own growth. It's assigned, in my opinion, of immaturity and hardheadedness. It's kind of like how a toddler treats everything that their parents say as preventing them from being happy. We shouldn't think that way if we actually want to grow up and we want to get better at what we do, which we all should want that. Okay, that is all for today. Love y'all so much. Thank you for for listening every week. It's just, it's, it's a joy to do this podcast with you guys. And I love your

feedback. As you guys know, I'm taking a break from social media this week. So I apologize for my lack of Instagram stories. But I will be back next week. I will also be at Turning Point USA's YWLSS Young Women's Leadership Summit this weekend. I'm speaking Saturday morning at 11 a.m. So I really hope that you guys are coming. I'm so excited about it. Follow me also on social media if you want. If you don't, totally cool. Check out my videos on CRTV.com. Email me feedback or any questions that you have. Leave me a positive review if you want. Share this with your friends. If you want. And I think that's it. Okay. Have a great week. Bye.