Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - REPLAY | Is Public School the Best Choice for Christians?

Episode Date: July 8, 2024

Today we're reacting to Jen Wilkin and Jonathan Pennington's debate on public education vs. private education (hosted by the Gospel Coalition). We present this argument with its full context but break down some of what Jen Wilkin, who represents the pro-public-school side, says specifically. In response to Wilkin's claim that woke curriculum can be a fear-mongering tactic, we take a look at what's happening in schools even in red states. Wilkin also mentions that our decision on where to send our kids to school impacts our communities, but is that a fair argument for public schools, and does that put our own children at risk for the "good of community"? We cover other school choice considerations such as finances and at-home discipleship, then look at Wilkin's response on Twitter to some of the backlash against her position. Lastly, we look at the perspective of a show favorite, Voddie Baucham, who offers words of caution about sending children to public school. --- Links: The Gospel Coalition: "Should Christian Parents Send Their Children to Public Schools?" https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/video/good-faith-debates-public-schools/ The Dallas Express: "Parent Confronts Richardson ISD Over Sexual Content in Jr High Reading" https://dallasexpress.com/education/parent-confronts-richardson-isd-over-sexual-content-in-jr-high-reading/ Exodus Mandate: “Top Five Reasons NOT to Send Your Kids Back to Public School” https://exodusmandate.org/public-schools/top-five-reasons-not-to-send-your-kids-back-to-public-school --- Relevant Episodes: Ep 495 | The Truth About ‘Social Emotional Learning’ & What Your Kids Are Reading | Guest: Sherry Clemens https://apple.co/3ZojXCD Ep 279 | The Corruption of Public Education & the Need for School Choice | Guest: Corey A. DeAngelis https://apple.co/3KD6cvX Ep 642 | DEBATE: Is Public School 'Grooming' a Conspiracy Theory? | Guest: Dr. Scott Coley https://apple.co/3EIMFGt Ep 639 | The Queerification of American Kids | Guest: James Lindsay https://apple.co/3xXDeiK --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. The Gospel Coalition hosted a debate in which Bible teacher Jen Wilkin argues in favor of public education. You guys had a lot of thoughts about that. And as you can imagine, so do I. I know this is a long episode as you can see, but it is worth it.

Trust me. This episode is brought to you by our friends. at Good Ranchers. Go to Goodranchers.com. Use promo code Alley at checkout. That's good ranchers.com promo code Alley. Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Hope everyone had a wonderful week. Man, oh man. There's so much to talk about so much that I want to talk about today and this week. But this entire episode will be dedicated to one subject because of the volume of messages that I've received from you guys over the past week asking me to talk about this very thing. So today we are talking about the recent public school versus Christian education debate

hosted by the gospel coalition representing each side was Dr. Jonathan Pennington. He's a father of six, professor at Southern Seminary, who homeschooled his children as well as sent them to a Christian private school at a different point in their lives. And then Jen Wilkin, mother of five, an author, Bible teacher who sent her kids to public school all the way through. So both offers. So both offer in this debate convictions for why they chose the education options that they did if you're not familiar with who these people are. They have some influence in the evangelical world, especially Jen Wilkin. She has taught many women through her Bible studies and through various teaching avenues. So I think that's part of why these people were chosen. And the reason I'm

discussing this debate on my show is because, like I said, many of you, when the debate, aired was published last week, asked me my thoughts on Jen Wilkins' perspective, knowing how much I've talked about and others have talked about on my show the importance of Christian education, not just private school, whether that be homeschool or private school or some kind of hybrid. The debate also generated a lot of butts on Christian social media, especially from those who are big proponents of Christian education and critics of our public education system. So Jin Wilkin has received some backlash, some I think is very fair, some maybe not so fair, maybe blatant misrepresentations of what she said.

But some of that I think, a lot of it, I think is very legitimate and very called for. She responded to the backlash and I will address her response later after we kind of go through the debate and I share my thoughts. I will share my responses to some of the arguments that Jen Wilkin made. I will play some clips and I will be very careful to give you the full context of what is being said. Careful, never to decontextualize or intentionally misrepresent her argument. I will give you my thoughts. If you have not watched the full debate, which I simply don't have time to play here.

I will, like I said, do my best to give the full context of everything she's saying, but I can't play the full debate here. I encourage you to go watch it at some point. Don't rely on me or what on anyone else says to get a full picture of what was discussed. Go watch it for yourself. I've done so twice at this point. I've watched the excerpts multiple times just to make sure that I understand what is really being said. Before I get into it, I want to say some things up front.

I kind of have a long preamble. So just get ready for that. Now, if you want to skip this part, we will put the time codes for when I'm talking about what in the description of this episode, whether you're watching on YouTube or whether you are listening, go to the description and you can click on that. You can skip this. You can go right to my responses to the video itself. However, however, I will warn you that if you skip my introduction, or even if you don't skip this part, and then you accuse me of not saying something that I did say in this or of not providing a caveat or a perspective that I did actually provide in this part, I will buy you a ticket on Elon Musk's next ride to the moon. Just kidding. I won't actually do that, but I will block and report you on Instagram.

I'm kidding. Also kidding. I also kidding. I also won't. do that, but I will probably block you. Okay, I probably won't block you, but I will probably just ignore you. Or I will respond to you and say in all caps, come back to me when you've actually listened to the episode. So that is my warning. You can skip ahead. But if you tell me that I didn't say something that I did say and what I'm about to say, I will be upset. But seriously, I welcome your feedback. And I welcome your alternate perspectives. A lot of you have engaged with me in that way on Instagram so you know that I welcome your respectful yet passionate disagreement with what I say. But please don't message me and tell me I said something that I did not say or that I

did not say something that I did say. I understand. I totally understand that this is an emotional. I don't say that in a degrading way. An understandably emotional contentious topic. People feel justifiably in a lot of ways defensive about the choices that they have made for their family as far as education goes. And it is hard to hear someone say that they think that you've perhaps made the wrong choice. I get it. But listen, this podcast is where I share my stance on things. And you are not going to agree with everything I say. Just like I wouldn't agree with everything that you said. If you had a podcast, you might not like everything that I say. Maybe sometimes you think I can. You know, could have said it differently or you wish that I had included something that I didn't.

That's okay. Either you can let it slide and you can stick around or not. That's totally up to you. But I will just say here's what you will not get from my podcast that I think is a little uncomfortable for some in the world in which we live and especially the Christian world in which we live and perhaps especially the female evangelical world and which most of you and I occupy. You will not often hear me say that two options are morally equivalent.

You will not typically hear me say, well, whatever works for you, whatever you feel like, or both sides of this argument are equally valid. Whatever you decide is just fine. Now, before you accuse me, after hearing that of legalism, because I'm actually much closer to a rule questioner than a rule follower have been my whole life, I do believe that there are lots of things that occupy that free personal choice realm, lots and lots of things. But regarding the important cultural, political, moral, theological things we discuss on this podcast, I typically land on one side or the other based on conviction, which means necessarily

that I don't think the other side of the argument hold as much water as the one that I've chosen. and I will passionately argue for my side. I mean, that's part of why I have a podcast. That's part of why you guys follow me. I enjoy that. I really do. I enjoy others doing that too. People publicly respond to my public arguments all the time.

And even when they're snarky, which they very often are, I don't take that as a personal attack. I might not like their argument. I might not even like how they said it. But whatever, that is what being in the public square is. I am choosing to say something publicly, state and opinion publicly, give my perspective and stance publicly. I expect people to publicly and hopefully respectfully, hopefully accurately respond to those

things. I mean, there are such things as personal attacks. I've definitely received those, those kind of ad hominem below the belt attacks. That never feels good or purposeful public misrepresentations of something that you said, just deceit and lie, decontextualization. That's never good. I don't like that. But public debate and public disagreement with what someone says publicly, I think is not only

fine, but I think can be very healthy. I think that vigorous debate, both in secular culture and in the church, that's the really sad part, is actually lacking today. Because so many people, women especially, I think, see passionate disagreement as attack. So we kind of embrace this moral relativism. And the most that we'll say when it comes to these contingentous topics is, well, I feel like this and then we'll finish it with, but I don't know. I mean, sometimes that's my response to things too. I mean, sometimes that's the most you can muster and that's fine when that's honest.

But I talk about the things here that I have really thought about, that I've read about, that I've read about, that I've prayed about that I've talked to many other people about who agree with me and don't agree with me. Listen to other people talk about who agree with me and don't agree with me. And I have typically come to a conclusion on the things I talk about. That doesn't mean that I don't change my mind in the future. That doesn't mean that I've never made mistakes. Obviously, I'm extremely fallible. But I'm going to give you like a strong case or try my best to give you a strong case for

what I think. And that makes in my experience a certain time. type of Christian woman upset. I can usually pinpoint exactly who this person is and who she follows based on the kinds of messages that she sends me. It is the quote unquote, do badder, constant tone policing type who ironically actually tend to carry in their own words, a lot of judgment and resentment. And they don't like that I present an argument that they don't like with conviction. Even if I go out of my way to respect the other side, even when I offer necessary caveats. They will say that to state my position so firmly is wrong, simple, dangerous

to the Christian community, whatever. And the funny thing is, though, that I've noticed. And I'm saying all this because I think it matters. I think it sets up this, what we're about to talk about. But I also know that a lot of you have experienced this as well. And I just am trying to put words to what you've seen and how you feel and to let you know that you're not alone. That's what the name of this show is about. The funny thing is, though, is that this type of Christian woman is actually very dogmatic themselves in their own way. These are Christian women who are often very dogmatic on, for example, the vaccine being a sign of loving your neighbor or wearing a mask, being a sign of loving your neighbor, systemic racism

being an ongoing plague in this country, Trump being harmful, et cetera. So what I usually find is that they're uncomfortable, not with just the fact that I have a clear stance on something, but that I have clearly stated a conservative stance on something or a stance that they don't like. They prefer either a form of, I feel like this, but I don't know, or embracing the more left-leaning position, what they would call not the left-leaning position, what they would call the empathetic position or the moderate position. But a stance that I usually see as not empathic at all, but simply as feelings driven and incorrect. like not based on fact.

And they don't like that I feel that way. And that I talk about these things. I mean, these are people who are so mad that I would not go along with while riots are the voice of the unheard and all of the violence and the recklessness that we're seeing in the wake of George Floyd is just totally justified. And we should just listen and learn. And they think that I'm divisive for not going along with a lot of the ideologies that we are seeing professing Christians push forward in the name of racial, reconciliation and social justice. They are so angry that I did not believe that taking the vaccine or wearing a mask is a biblical sign necessarily of loving your neighbor. And so these people, because I don't agree with them on those things, will call me unloving or divisive or whatever.

And it's really just because I am not dogmatic in the way that they are. And these people will say, you know what, you, the reason that you have the opinions that you do or you talk about the things that you do or you say the things I don't like is because you just want to make money or you just want to get clicks. It's always the same kind of person who says this exact thing. It's like they all get together. They're on an email chain. They're like, yes, this is what we're going to say to the conservatives that we don't agree with. And it just kind of makes me laugh. I mean, it makes me sad. I'll be honest. It does. That makes me sad. But it makes me laugh in a sad way, how ignorant in accusation this is. One, because I know where it's coming from. This person doesn't like me and

it makes them feel better to believe that I'm tricking other people into liking me. And two, because it is so incredibly incorrect. I have two considerations. Two considerations when deciding on what to talk about every day. One, do I think it's important? And two, do you think it's important? Do I think it's important? Do I think it's important?

Most of what I discuss, I discuss because a bunch of you have asked me to talk about it. And when I see something as generating interest and a lot of you guys are like, gosh, I need clarity on this. I need courage on this. I need an explanation on this. Sometimes I rely on a guess because I'm like, well, that's out of my realm of expertise. I have no idea if we're going to nuclear war. Can someone smarter than me? Please come tell my audience what the deal is. But a lot of times these are things like the debate today that I'm thinking about too. And I'm like, you know what? Yeah, I think that I can help my audience navigate through this because I really, I really care about this. And I see that they really care about this. There are so. many controversies actually on the show that we avoid so much drama that we do not talk about because we don't want to get in the middle of it that we know would probably get us a lot of clicks would probably get us a lot of attention that we just avoid because it's I don't want to get in the drama I don't I don't want to like call out that person there's so many things so many people that we do not talk about because even if it generated a lot of attention it wouldn't be

worth it to me and it's just not something that I want to discuss. There is so much effort. You have no idea behind the scenes that we put into making sure that we don't have clickbait titles or that that don't match the content of what we're actually saying. So much time ensuring that I am accurately representing the other side of the argument. I am obviously imperfect at this as we all are, but that is always our goal. It doesn't help me. It doesn't help anyone. Doesn't help you if I am purposely and consistently misrepresenting someone or their arguments. Like, that doesn't help me in any way. Like, if I were just trying to get as many followers as possible by talking about these things like we're talking about today, do you think that I

would talk about the things that I do? Like, think about some of the people with really big platforms, especially the Christians with really big platforms. You often do not see them talking about the things that I do because it makes segments of their audience mad. And now I'm not saying that they're that's bad that that's it that they should weigh into you know all of these controversies. That's not their platform. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. But they often will avoid these kind of controversial things because it's it's not worth it to them. And so if that were me like if I were just trying to appeal to as many people as possible, I would avoid the private school public school debate. I wouldn't talk about reformed theology versus Catholic theology.

I would not have interviewed an ex-Morman. I wouldn't call for the banning of pit bulls. I am constantly talking about things that probably cut out like a potential portion of an audience. I have decided this is the narrow audience and potential audience that I am trying to reach. And I'm going to talk about the things that they care about and that I care about. And I'm going to call it relatable because I am part of this group of thousands of Christian, women who often feel neglected by mainstream evangelicalism, certainly by mainstream culture, certainly by mainstream media. And so we're going to relate about the things that we're concerned

about and how we're thinking through all of this. This podcast is not for everyone. I am talking about what I care about and what you care about, period. I have always wanted to cast a deep net in this segment of the world, not a wide net, which is exactly why the show is called what it is, exactly why by the grace of God we have the community that we do here exactly why whenever we meet in person the first thing you say is I feel like I know you yeah me too that's what this is about so all that to say take it or leave it I am here to give you my fallible yet thought out perspective on things and you are here to listen we don't need to agree on everything to get along my iRL friends and i disagree on things and i still love them very much we can do that now I would not still be

friends with them if they were constantly sending me messages saying, do better. Disappointed, but not surprised that you're against masks, that you won't be for gun confiscation. This person always claims, by the way, oh, I'm a conservative Christian too. I'm conservative too. And yet they're constantly school-warming me, chastising me on not agreeing with them on things. So, like, no, we probably can't be friends if you're constantly doing that. But if you want to respectfully disagree with me, as I have with a lot of people, especially over the past few days about this public school thing, open to that. Please stick around. As I said, I enjoy debate. I always have. I do not see vigorous disagreement as attack. And it's the oddest and saddest thing to me when people accuse me

or anyone else of quote unquote attacking someone because we publicly disagree with someone's public argument. Again, that is what the public square is for. That's healthy, that's productive, that's edifying. That's how we learn. Look at the Reformation, the Great Awakening, even the 20th century debates on the inerrancy of scripture. Look at the New Testament. We see debate. We see calling out. We see rebuke. We see public admonition. Yes, done from love, but we see these things. I'm not talking about Matthew 5, personal qualms. I'm talking about publicly responding to public ideas and or public error. I think that's not only okay. I think it's good. I think it's how we figure out what the truth is. It's part of how we sharpen each other. And we can do that without imputing

someone's motives or calling names. That's why I'm extremely careful about using terms like false teacher. I'm extremely hesitant always to tell people not to follow someone or read any of their books. In fact, I almost never knew that unless it's really obvious. Someone like Jen Hatmaker, Glennon Doyle, I will go out of my way to compliment the person with whom I'm disagreeing. But I will still disagree. I think, and what will some with my preamble? I think the church needs more public hashing out of theological, political, and cultural issues. Less, well, this is what so-and-so said, or this is what the gospel coalition. published, so it must be right. Anything outside of that is extreme and fear mongering. That's not

healthy unity. Healthy unity is worked out through debate, discussion, disagreement with the same goal in mind of following and glorifying Christ. I think more division. Here we go. I think more division is caused by lack of vigorous debate than by the presence of it. And I personally, here we go. We're shifting into this actual public school Christian education debate. I personally did not think this debate published by the Gospel Coalition was very vigorous at all. That's why I'm responding to it rather than just saying, yep, the other guy covered it.

That's why I think it is good, that others are talking about it and that it has sparked public dialogue, passionate public dialogue. I thought Wilkin did a better job than Dr. Pennington of presenting her side persuasively and confidently. Dr. Pennington seems awesome. He seems great. But nearly every answer you will see as you watch it and as we talk about it in just a second he gave was caveated by acknowledging first the validity of her point. There was a lot there that was unsad too. I don't blame him for that.

I've been in discussions and where I leave wishing I had said something that I didn't say. but there was so much to be desired after this. I know you guys felt like that too. He did make good point that I will highlight, but overall, I wished that the Christian education position was presented more confidently. Oh, there was so much to say. So before I start playing the clips,

I do have a few, just a few things to say, but it's not part of my preamble. It's just part of the debate that we are about to enter into that will probably answer some of the questions that you have. this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives

and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. All right. So let me say just a couple things. And again, if you tell me that I did not say one of these things, I will, I don't even, I don't know. I don't know. I will call your mom. And I will tell. her to ground you for not listening. I know she taught you better than that. Okay, so number one,

before I get into these responses, I have absolutely nothing against Jen Wilkin. I don't know her personally. I have never done her Bible studies. I've never heard a full talk that she's given. I know many women, many of you out there who have greatly benefited from Wilkins' Bible studies. It seems to me that she loves scripture. She has a gift for teaching. That's obvious. Now, I know that there are differing opinions, just like there is of everything. Some of you out there are wary of her teaching. You've sent me things that she has said that you think are off or maybe progressive. I can't comment on these things because I haven't watched them in full context. I am simply acknowledging that there are those of you who have told me that yes, you love her and she's helped me so much. Others have said, I heard her speak and I was really disappointed by blank. Got it. You should be using discernment, as I know all of you are. With all people, including with me, compare what is said to scripture. always, no matter who is saying it. I personally know only a little about her and I'm sure that she's a very nice person. And if I were to guess, she and I probably agree. Like if we were to line up

our doctrine, line up our theology and maybe line up even what we believe about politics and social issues, like we probably agree on most things. Along those lines, while you will hear me disagree with her, I am not questioning her abilities as a mom or whether her family is amazing. I'm sure her kids They're wonderful. She talks about her kids. They sound awesome. Also, here's my next thing. I am not questioning your abilities as a mother or whether your kids are amazing. If you choose or did choose public school, you may or may not feel convicted or convinced by what I say, but it is not my intention to make you feel condemned just because I feel very strongly about my position. Now, Jen Wilkins, children,

are grown up. They're out of school. They have been for a while. A lot of you have reached out to me and said, you know what? I don't feel like I can take her opinion because she doesn't know what it's like to have a kindergartner in these schools right now and what they're teaching. Like things have shifted a lot in the past 10 to 15 years. But listen, my kids are not yet in school. So for those of some of you, for those of you who who massaged me and sad that you feel like Jen's opinions aren't is relevant. There are some of you who might think that my opinion is irrelevant because I don't have kids at school yet. And if you think both of our opinions are irrelevant, you should probably go just turn this podcast off and go get a margarita or something. However, I am coming out this openly

as someone who is considering schooling options for our kids who will be there before we know it. So this is something I'm thinking about a lot. This is something that I've thought about for a long time even before kids, but even more so now. So someone who grew up close to where Jen Wilkins kids grew up. I went to a Christian school, someone who studies our public education system a lot, who talked to a lot of different people about this. And I am trying to make sense of all of that from my vantage point, trying to make sense of all of the chaos of all of this and navigate it with you.

So I just want to be up front about what my experience is here, my lack of experiences and where I'm coming from. Another last thing. I understand that everyone's circumstance is different. Okay? I understand that everyone's circumstance is different. I don't know where you live, your financial situation, your marital status, or your child's special needs. Even though, as you will hear, I am very pro-Christian education, I do understand that there may be situations in which public school is your only or best option.

I think this is the exception, not even close to the rule, but I acknowledge that it is possible that this situation exists. Really, my opinion, my position is the exact opposite of Jens, which as you will hear, is that she believes Christian parents should, if possible, send their kids to public school for the good of their community. I believe Christian parents should, if possible, give their kids a Christian education for the good of their kids and consequently. for the good of the community. So that's it. That's my preamble. Those are some of my caveats. Now I will play you some clips from the show.

Some of them are on the little longer side. We typically play like 30 seconds of clips, but I really just like want you to want to make sure that I'm giving you the full picture of what she's saying without playing you the entire, you know, debate. So here is, What she says in kind of her introductory explanation of her position on public education. We did choose public school out of conviction, but I always like to make clear up front that we did not have any special considerations in that.

Our kids did not have learning disabilities. There were no special concerns that might have played into that decision for us. And I'm very sensitive to that. Not only that, we always lived near excellent schools. So I would never say everyone should choose public school, but I would say that we should try really hard to, if at all possible, because we believe in the public school ideal. We believe that education is a right. It's necessary for human flourishing.

It's good for society. It's a mark of civilization that you have an educated citizenry. And so if that is something that you can see, then you would value that you would have quality education for everyone, if at all possible. And we believed that our participation in the public school system was directly related to loving our neighbors.

And so if we could opt in at all, then we absolutely wanted to. Okay, so I just wanna kind of make clear what was said there. She does say some people push back on me when I said that she said this. She does say right there that she believes that Christian parents should, considering all factors,

she does give a caveat there, should, if at all, possible, go to public schools because she believes this makes the public education system better, which then makes the community better. And then she says this was directly related to loving our neighbors. So that is her stance. Before this,

she was saying that her stance on homeschool, is highly autobiographical. She comes from a long line of educators. There are a lot of people in her family involved in the public education system. And she then after this says the worldview starts at home. She talks about the importance of parental involvement in your child's education and their life, which of course I agree with. She talked about she said that they talked about everything that her child was learning

in the classroom. She allowed, they allowed them to kind of navigate their way through these social issues with their help, something that she didn't feel probably would be the case if they went to private schools because they were exposed to so many different kinds of different kinds of people in public schools. She does talk about, which I thought was an interesting point. She says, you know, issues like so-called gender identity, or I'm adding the so-called gender identity or sexual orientation, they weren't just issues for her kids because they attended a public school with people of all different kinds of backgrounds, but they were actually people. These were embodied issues. And so she feels like

they were able to talk through these things in a humanizing way rather than in an abstract way. She said that she also loved the involvement that her kids were able to have with special needs kids. And she appreciated the exposure to different family types and socioeconomic backgrounds. So that's kind of the gist of the beginning of her argument. She connects it to loving her community, investing in her community, making the education system better. And yes, loving her neighbor. Now, I have a response to those things, but I just wanted to make sure that you set it up and that you heard what she said there, really the basis of her argument. And then I'm going to play the next part of what she says.

And I agree with a lot of what she says here about kids being missionaries in the public education setting. I do think one of the misconceptions about Christian parents who send children to public school is that we've sent them there to be missionaries, to be salt and light. But we were not trying to send a second grader into a secular space to share the good news. We wanted to trade our kids into that so that anywhere they went that became something that was intuitive. And I appreciated her saying this because you do hear this a lot. This is a debate that I've had with some of my followers, is that while my kids, kids, my kindergartner, my second grader, my middle schooler, they're, you know, they're salt

enlightened these schools and they are the ones who are sharing the gospel with their friends. Like they're responsible for being the good example. Look, they are not actually responsible as a first grader to be the missionaries to their fellow students or for their teachers. Now, that may naturally happen as your child grows in Christ and they do set a good example for their friends. that's going to happen wherever they go by the way. But you don't put a soldier on the front lines who is not even big enough to hold up his shield.

Like your child, and this is not a direct quote, this is not a quote from me. I've heard a lot of Christians say this. Your child is not a missionary in the public school system. Your child is your mission field. Like they are going to be disciples. Okay. They're going to be disciples by the person. they spend the most time with. And so they are not actually as a first grader going in and

discipling other people. They are being disciples by other people. They are being disciples by the predominant worldview in whatever space they occupy for a large amount of time. And so I appreciate that she acknowledges that she did not send her kids into the public education system to be missionaries. However, I will say, I get a little confused. about her stated convictions here based on something that she later says, which I'll explain in a bit. She then talks about, she talks about fearmongering and how there's a lot of information and misinformation out there about what is actually being taught in the public school system. So here's what she has to say about that.

I think now the question that I get most frequently is like, but you wouldn't do that now, right? Like knowing what you know now. And my answer would be that, yes, I would because I know what our school district is and isn't teaching. And what I see happening now around this conversation is a great deal of misinformation and fear-mongering. Some of the things even in our own district that parents will say are being taught, I know are

I know are not being taught. And what I think is happening is people read an article about something that happened somewhere else or they hear a story. There's a lot of hearsay that travels around about what is or isn't going on. And because we live in a time where fear is something that is leveraged at every turn, it takes root

and they end up making a fear-based decision instead of an educated decision. So what I found interesting here is that she doesn't actually give credence to the legitimate concerns that parents have about what is being taught. Like she she does say, okay, yes, there are some concerns out there that might be happening somewhere. But she doesn't really talk about how these problems seem to have accelerated so much and become so much more pervasive in the past few years. I don't know if she

just didn't say that or if she doesn't really believe that. But I just want to make sure that you out there who have concerns about the public education system in general or the district in your area that you are not gaslit that you are not convinced by this that your legitimate concerns your valid concerns and yes in some cases like justified fear i'm not saying that you're running scared that you're paranoid that you're filled with anxiety but that you kind of like have a healthy fear and healthy concern when it comes to the upbringing of your child and the influences that you're child has in their life, I just don't want you to be gaslit. I don't want you to be gaslit into thinking that you're just being paranoid or that you're being sinfully fearful because you don't

want your child introduced to some of the things that you know that your friend's children have been introduced to. Or you're not even, you're not being a victim of propaganda because you heard that the next district over or a district in another conservative area have started pushing, for example, racially divisive curriculum. or gender ideology to the elementary schoolers and wondering, you know what, is that going to come down the pipeline for me? Is that going to be something that is introduced to my child next year? Maybe I just want to avoid that entirely. Maybe I don't even want my child to be introduced to that at all.

That's not a bad basis for your decisions when your responsibility as a parent is to steward their hearts and mind well. That doesn't mean that you're shielding them from all of those things, but you are ensuring that you're, you maintain your rightful position as the authority on those things in their life, as the authority on all things, morality and identity and theology. Just remember that public schools are teaching theology too. They're just not teaching biblical theology because there's no such thing as neutrality. Everyone has a worldview. Everything is taught typically. I can't say everything, but most things are taught from a particular perspective and a particular worldview. You are not, buying into fear mongering by saying, you know what? I just want to make sure that the worldview

that from which my kids are being taught, eight hours a day for five days a week, lines up with my worldview and not a secular progressive world deal. That's not you being scared. To me, that is simply you being wise. And like, I'll just remind you that this kind of stuff is happening in conservative districts. Now, I agree with her. You should check to see if these things are happening in your district. I'm not saying that everything that happens in every other district is happening in your school. You need to be really aware of what is going on in your district, whether you have kids in public school or not. But I'll just remind you of a woman named Sherry Clements who came on my show a couple of years ago when she had gone viral for a speech that she gave.

This is a Christian woman. This is a woman who has the same convictions that you and I do. And she was from Richardson, Texas, which is a pretty conservative area. It's probably very similar to the area in which Jen Wilkin grew up and sent her kids to public school. And she is, Sherry Clemens is a big proponent of public school. She ran for school board, unfortunately. She lost. Shouldn't have happened, but she did because actually all of the people, a lot of the people, even like in her church and Christians who say that they're like pro public school, they didn't even like rally to support her race, unfortunately. And so she should have won that. But she's very pro public school. This is a largely conservative area. She knows a lot of the teachers. She is very involved in her community. And she was

shocked by what her middle schooler was learning and the kinds of books that he was receiving. So this is part of what she said. She gave a speech to the board of trustees of the Richardson Independent School district and she said this, September 20th, 2021, there is sexually explicit content in seven out of the 10 books that were recommended to her explicitly by her child's teacher, one of them having 53 incidences of sex. Example from Burn Baby Burn. This is a book that her child was given. Angel was my first experience with a guy, a fact that I try to forget daily. One minute we were kissing in Angel's room and a little while later, he was driving me home, my shirt buttoned, my shirt button wrong and a lot of toilet paper and my underwear to catch the blood.

She said, there's no approved book list and teachers are given full autonomy as to what books they select. How can every teacher be responsible to know the appropriateness of every book? How is it that my daughter, so this is actually your daughter in eighth grade, could be reading books with major profanity and sexual content because it's the goal of RISD to reach all students. I demand better for my children. Now, they did apologize for this, but she had a lot more complaints. She said books that her middle schoolers were reading also. provided ways, and these were some of these were required books, required or included ways in which they could commit suicide.

Look, there are problems in private schools Christian education. That's not something that you are seeing. That kind of thing is not something that you are seeing in Christian education. Sure, you can talk your child through those things if you have the kind of relationship and the kind of time in which you can. And that could be a good opportunity. That's not what I would prefer. I would prefer to be the one to first talk to my child about things like sex and things like identity and things like so-called orientation, things like suicide.

Maybe I don't want them to encounter those things under the authority of a teacher whose worldview is completely opposed to mine. Look, that's not fearmongering. That is showing you, look, this is what is happening in some conservative school districts. Make sure, check to see if it's happening in yours. But this is one example of a conservative school district. is presenting kids with the kind of thing that is so depraved and so disruptive to their healthy development that I think it is simply wise for parents to care to care and to say maybe and this is not going to be the choice for everyone maybe I don't want my kid to encounter that in that way

at all and I don't have time actually we have so many examples I wanted to show you examples from conservative school districts of this same kind of thing happening in Montana in Florida in Georgia, in different parts of Texas, in Oklahoma, in Alabama. Okay, I know because I hear it so much. Well, this kind of stuff, the racially divisive curriculum in which white kids are told that they're oppressors, black kids are told that they're oppressed, gender ideology, hiding stuff from parents where kids are socially transitioning and parents don't know. Talking about pronoun, that would never happen at my school because I know the

teachers, their Christian teachers, whatever. And then so often I get messages from those very same people who say, I never thought that it would happen here. And it has. And maybe you still convicted, you still feel convicted to stay there. I'm just saying that if you have concerns about those things happening in your district or even the next district over, that is an okay justification for you to say, that's not something that I want to be involved in. Or I want my kid to be involved in. Maybe you're still involved in a lot of different ways because you care about your community and you're already making an investment in these schools through your tax dollars, but it is okay. It's not just fearmongering for you to say, yeah, our public education system in general doesn't seem to be going the way that I wanted

to go. And if I'm making disciples of my kids, it's not the strategy that I'm going to take. I just want to make sure you know that that is okay. And I personally think good reasoning to say, yeah, my kids aren't going to be a part of the public education system today. And I don't think that's the only reason. I don't actually think that should be your central motivation. And I'll talk about that in a second. But I do think that's okay if that's part of it. Okay, don't think that you're just being like naive and believing Fox News propaganda

because you see these things. I mean, lips of TikTok is not lying when she's posting the evidence of what is happening at public schools. That doesn't mean that that's happening in your district. But it's okay for you to say, hmm, I wonder if that's coming down the pipeline for me. Again, I don't think that that is the primary reason not to public school. I think that there's bigger and a better reason not to send your kids to public school. But I don't want you to be gaslit.

I don't want you to feel bad because it sometimes sounds like people think that you're just some kind of paranoid freak for being worried about the things that you're seeing in public schools. I agree that we shouldn't be misinformed or we shouldn't exaggerate things or we shouldn't say something's going. on that is not going on, absolutely agree with that. But your concerns are valid. All right, this next part is the part that I think really kind of, I don't know, worked me up the most that I have probably the biggest response to when she talks about that really families should not make their education decisions based on this is best for my family because the Bible tells us to put others before ourselves. I have a big response, a big response to that. And again, like respect or her position where she's coming from or respect her as a person, adamantly, adamantly disagree with that

and I will explain why. The moment that we've all been waiting for, the clip that has probably circulated the most that has made people the most angry. Let me, let me play this for you, and then I will respond. While I cannot tell you to put your children in public school and certainly never would because there are so many factors that are at play, that it is important for us to understand that our decision regarding this and even our demeanor toward this has an impact on our community. It doesn't just impact our family. The most common phrase I hear thrown out in these conversations is, well, I just need to do what's best for my family. And I think that's something that as Christians we have to push back on. Philippians tells us each of you should look,

not just to your own interests, but to the interests of others. Okay, so she does, does say though, like she says here, I would never tell you to put your kids in public school, but she does in the very beginning to say that Christian parents should try if at all possible to go to public school. And she does, you know, acknowledge the, acknowledge some caveos there, but she does say, try if at all possible to go to public school. And then she links that to love of neighbor and the good of your community, which is I will read later. She says that she did not say in her response. But in the first 30 seconds, you can go back and listen, watch the whole thing for yourself. She does argue the Christian parents who can't send their kids to public school should.

That's her position. Okay, that's her position. But here argues that it is out of selflessness in love that we should do so. And she's referencing Philippians 2, 3 through 4 that says this, do nothing from selfish ambition or concede, but in humility, count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. So she is arguing that looking out for the interest, of others may mean sending your kids to public school because everyone being invested in the public education system is better for the community. But a couple things here. One, and this is just like

a peave of mine because I've seen this a lot recently and I just like want to scream out sometimes to Christians, your children are others. Your family. They are others. They are not you. And I think that Jen agrees with this because she wrote an article about our children being our neighbor several years ago, I think eight years ago. So I'm sure that she aligns with that statement, which is why I found this a little confusing and a little troubling. Listen, again, because I know I got a message from someone telling me that they watched this and because they understandably, they admire Jen Wilkins so much, they started feeling guilty about sending their kids to private Christian school or homeschooling their kids. I don't think that was her intention, so I'm not putting that on her, but I just,

want to speak to that person. Listen, you are putting the interest of your children above yourself when you choose to homeschool or go to Christian school. I'm not saying the parents who choose to go to public school are also not sacrificing something for their kids, but I'm speaking to the person who maybe you started to feel guilty or you're worried about that. You are putting the interest of your kids, the interests of others who are your kids above yourself by sending them to a private Christian school, hybrid option, homeschool, whatever. it is giving them a Christian education. It is in your financial interest. In your time and energy and convenience interest to send your kids to public school. Parents who choose to homeschool or a

Christian school, they make so many sacrifices for that. They're not thinking about themselves at all. Gosh, I can think of so many kids that I grew up with, so many families that come to mind right now who have to work so hard to make sure that their kids have a Christian education. They are not rich. Like, do you know most homeschooling families? They're not rich. They're not privileged. And yet, they work hard and they trust God to equip them to give their kids the education they know they need. I just don't want any of you to have heard that and think that you're making a selfish or unloving or a biblical choice by using what's best for my family as the deciding factor in your child's education. Yes, that is what you should be asking. Really is how can I help my kids best love and glorify God?

but of course that is best for your kids and it is okay and i think right to think that these kids that god has specifically given you you should be asking yourself how can i best steward their hearts and minds how can i disciple them the best how can i give them the best education with the most christ-centered values possible how can i show them as often and as best as i can the true and the beautiful recognizing that when they are in their educating years, they are not spending most of their time with you, but with other people who are also, again, teaching them a worldview. There is nothing your neighbors, your community, your city, your country benefits more from than kind, wise, virtuous, loving children who grow up to be kind, wise, virtuous, brave,

loving adults who know their Bibles. that is not to say that that can't happen when a kid graduates from public school. I'm not saying that. I know amazing Christians who graduated from public school. I know apostates and heretics that graduated from Christian school. I see their Facebook posts or their tweets. And I'm like, what in the world? But to me, to me, that is not a good argument for public school.

I see that a lot. Well, I know bad kids that go to private school. I know great kids that go to public school. Look, I don't think that's a good argument because to me the ins don't justify the means. The question is not whether, ooh, how do I think that they could end up? Of course, we all hope that our kids end up loving Christ and on fire for him and loving the word and being smart and educate all those things. But the question I have right now is whether I want my kids to hear the Bible taught every

day for 13 plus years at school or not. That's it. I personally do. My husband and I personally do. If that is an option for people where you live and it. in your circumstance, I think that is the best option. I just don't buy the idea that I have to sacrifice my kids for the sake of some vague idea of the common good. Because I actually believe that I am contributing to actual common good by being light in the darkness by ensuring that my kid is

disciples and equipped the best possible for as much time as possible before they were released into the world. Now, I am sure that Jen Wilkin didn't see it as sacrificing her kids at all, but from my vantage point, I do. And this is an increasingly popular argument in general that we're seeing, oh, to be selfless and to put others above yourself means disadvantaging kind of in a lot of ways your family, not from her necessarily, but you see it a lot when it comes to like the vaccine. Get the vaccine to love your neighbor. Wear a mask to love your neighbor. Give up your guns to love your neighbor. I've never thought that those were good arguments. I never thought that there was any credence to the idea that we should do something that could be very bad for our children, for our family.

And by the way, isn't actually backed by the science in order to say that we are loving our neighbor. I just didn't see biblical support for that. And the same way that I don't think a law abiding person giving up their guns. is in any way tangibly loving your neighbor. Like there's no correlation. There's no correlation between that. And I just see the spirit of that argument here that, well, I'm not going to give my kids a Christian education because some other people don't have a Christian education.

And I think that my kids not having a Christian education like the other kids who don't have a Christian education is somehow going to help everyone be better. I just don't see a whole lot of credence to that argument. Now, I also, she says she's coming from personal experience and she'll talk a little bit more about that and I'll mention it in a second. But I am also coming from personal experience because I know what a Christian education did for me. I went to a private Christian school, kindergarten through 12th grade. It wasn't perfect. I don't think any education option is perfect, by the way.

There were years that I hated it. I didn't like this school. I didn't like the setup, whatever. Honestly, I didn't really fit the mold completely. I made decent grades. I always excelled at certain subjects. You can probably guess which ones did mediocre in others, like science, did great in English. But the problem was I could never keep my mouth shut kindergarten through 12th grade.

That was my problem. Always talking in class. I know it's shocking that I have a career talking for long periods of time. I was always late to class because I was talking in between class. I was bored in class. I was distracted in class. I had some teachers who helped me find my students. drinks along the way. But I had a lot of teachers, especially elementary school, middle school,

who simply punished me and would say things like, you're so smart, why don't you apply yourself more? And, you know, and I didn't, I didn't excel every year. I'm not sure that I would send my kids there if that were an option today. There just, in my opinion, wasn't enough latitude for kids who learned even slightly differently. And there was, as there is, I think at all schools, public or private, politics, clicks, things like that. However, even with my not perfect experience at a Christian private school, we will still, with every fiber of our being, be pursuing Christian education for our kids. Because even with its imperfections, what I got as far as a theological foundation is absolutely irreplaceable. And this is so important.

Again, probably not a perfect theological foundation, but you guys ask me all the time, hey, how do you know so many Bible verses? How does it seem like you're able to recall scripture from memory and then incorporate that into what you're talking about? I hope you don't hear this, by the way, is any kind of like arrogance or braggadociousness because that's not what this is at all. It has very little to do with me and a lot to do with hearing the Bible read and talked about every single day of my life at home and at church and at school from the time I was five until I was

18. You just can't argue with what a difference that makes in a person's worldview and their theological foundation. It just does. Now that and we had a stellar English department that could probably rival most college English departments today. It was a great combination for me as far as laying a foundation for understanding the world. from a biblical worldview. My fourth grade teacher, my junior year Bible teacher, my senior year English teacher, they didn't just show me Christ, as you often hear in public schools, by being kind of like covert Christians, but by showing us how the gospel is interwoven in everything in our world, in literature, in history, in science. That's what I got from a Christian education

for 13 years of my life. This is my father's world, is my favorite hymn for many reasons, especially nowadays. But one of them is because my education. was characterized by that belief. This, all of it, is God's world, every number, every discovery, every letter, every idea. It is all his. My parents didn't have to squeeze that idea in when they got a spare moment with us before going to bed at night. They knew it was reiterated every day. Sure, parents can make sure their kids are reading their Bible and reading Christian books at home that they're part of youth group. Of course, at home discipleship, I agree with Gin Wilkin, is the most important thing. But what about knowing that they're discussing and debating the Bible and apologetics

and theology with their peers every day? I got my first predestination debate in sixth grade. That education, it was invaluable to me. And my husband and I will literally do anything. We'll do anything to give our kids the gift that our parents gave us. My parents gave me so much growing up, but that, a 13-year Bible-centered education might be, it might be the best one. It's the one that I use the most. I use it every day. I wouldn't be able to do this job without it. There is no way.

So for us, it's simple. When we look at the options between, well, I can send my kids that God is so graciously given me as gifts to steward and to care for and disciple and to raise up in what is good and right and true. I can send them 40 hours a week to a place that at best, teaches them no worldview at all, which I don't really think is possible, but tries really hard to be neutral, and at worst teaches one that is directly opposed to a biblical worldview. Or I can send them somewhere or teach them at home in a way that is continuing the work

that my husband and I are doing as parents. If those are our two options, then we're going to pick the last one. We're going to choose the latter. And I don't know yet exactly what that will look like. If I need to quit this podcast a full-time homeschool, I will do it. That will be hard. I promise you that I will be putting the interests of other people above myself if we radically shift our lives to do that.

But we will also be doing that if we choose some kind of private school option. We will simply do what it takes to give our kids a Christian education because, gosh, I can't even describe how thankful I am to have that foundation that will be paying. off for the rest of my life. And I also want to note something that she says in this, that you can involve yourself or something that she says, I can't remember she said it in this clip or she said after. She talks about involving yourself if you don't have kids there, that you still need to be making that investment.

I totally agree with that. Like when we can, different stages of life are different. So maybe you don't have time right now to go to all the school board meetings, but paying attention to what's being taught. I agree with that. We're taxpayers. We're part of the community. We've a vested interest in what our kids, like future peers and colleagues are learning. But if we can involve ourselves as adults in our public school system by knowing what's going on, volunteering, why do my kids need to go there? Like, if they're not the missionaries, which she acknowledges, and we are, then why should I deprive my kids of a Christian

education in order to have an impact? I mean, she acknowledges that there are other ways to get involved. So why do my kids need to go to public school in order to make a difference. Why can't I give my kids a Christian education and still be involved in other ways? Like, doesn't that count as loving your neighbor? So I'm a little confused then. Like, what is the argument for not giving my kids a Christian education and sending them to public school? So to me, there is a little inconsistency there. All right, let's bring in some arguments or I'm not even going to play it because we just don't have time. We're already over an hour. I knew this was going to be long. I knew it was going to be long. I knew it was going to be a mega episode because I have a lot to say. That's what happens when you have such a long preamble, but also when you

have to respond to a lot of these clips. So Dr. Pennington, as I said, six kids. He sent his kids to private school, but he also homeschooled them. I think it sounds like when he was younger. And even though, like, I just felt like he caveated too much of what he said and just wasn't strong enough. It seemed to me like they were afraid of hurting her feelings or of, um, of like dog piling on her because both the host and Dr. Pennington said their kids, like gave their kids a Christian education. So it just seemed like in a lot of ways they were kind of tiptoeing. But he did make some good points undoubtedly. And I think the best point that he made was the first point that he made when he asked the simple question,

but what is an education? Like why do we educate our children? He talks about the Greek word Pidea and how this kind of education is taking people from childishness to maturity, help them love what is true, good, and beautiful. I love that definition of education, taking people from childishness to maturity to help them love what is true, good, and beautiful. That's what education should be. And we should just honestly ask ourselves, like, do you think public schools, even the best public schools are doing that? Most public schools can't, by law, even openly define what is objectively good, true, and beautiful. So I just think, I think that's a

really good question. Like, I love defining our terms. What is education? And he argues or he talks about that this idea of education is actually what Christians spearheaded and used to shape Western civilization. When they pioneered education and academia to be this, education hasn't always been this kind of secular, progressive endeavor like it is today. I mean, it's always been an endeavor in conformity. If you go back to the beginning of really the public school system, I'm not just talking about like schoolhouses and homeschooling, is really kind of what it used to be. But the public education system in the United States has always been about conformity. It's always been about implementing a particular worldview, imposing it onto the children to make them behave a certain way and think a certain way for the good of society.

And now it's not the worldview that it was then, which was a form of a Protestant worldview, trying to make the Catholics more Protestant, trying to make the immigrants more American. but the worldview today is a secular progressive worldview. Again, there is no such thing as neutrality. Our public school system is not neutral. I think you have lots of wonderful teachers out there who are doing their very best to teach well and to not implement some kind of secular progressive worldview, but you can't deny that that is the worldview of the teachers unions. And the education department and most of the bureaucracy,

the administrative bloat that kind of guides our education system, There are certainly outliers of schools that may not be teaching the full scope of secular progressivism, but that is the dominant worldview. I think we can probably agree on that, right? If you have come to the realization that really there is no such thing as a worldview neutrality here. And so I think he's just making the argument, look, Christians used to understand really what education was. They were not thinking about giving their kids over to a discipleship program, which is also what education. education is that is actively opposing their values. I mean, he doesn't say this, but I'm like, but I'm thinking, again, not trying to be offensive. I'm like, why would you do that if you have the

option? Like you work so hard for the first six years of their life to disciple them. Now you are giving them to a different discipleship program that is saying, oh, what's your parents say, either we're just not going to talk about it at all or we're going to talk about something that directly opposes them, hope you can make it six year old. And I think this is a lot worse today than it was 15 to 20 years ago. I mean, would you allow your kid to go to a church that you knew was preaching a false gospel every week for two hours? Like, if you knew that, like, there was some youth group or something that every Sunday was teaching kids about, like, pronouns and changing your gender, like, would you send your kids to that? and yet a lot of parents send their kids to a school 40 hours a week that is at least some of that time teaching those things and they're surrounded by peers who support it so i know a lot of you aren't going to like what i just said but that is like how i'm kind of thinking through some of this um he also brings up deuteronomy six

and um he's referring to juderonomy six five through six and he's talking about like what education has been for god's people since the beginning God says, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children and shall talk of them when you sit in your house. And when you walk by the way, when you lie down and when you rise. Jen Wilkin, you know, would probably say, well, this starts in the home, which I absolutely agree with. I absolutely agree that it starts with the home and that it ultimately ends with the home. But you can see the spirit of these words here.

it's not just okay the maybe two hours of time that you have with them in between homework and extracurriculars and dinner and all of that stuff that you get to spend time with your kids and talk to them about the Bible it's not just weekends like you can see that the spirit of this verse is that it's constant it's constant it's as constant as possible that they are being disciples and these things the host mentions there's 15,000 hours of education in an adolescence life that's a lot of time. That's a lot of time to be inundated with an opposing worldview or a worldview that aligns with your own. One thing that I, that she said that I really liked is that she limited extracurriculars that her family did and that that kind of made them countercultural. Totally agree.

I think that's an awesome idea. She talks about like a lot of students have alternate identities, like in their athletics or whatever it is and then you never have time together. I think that's true of a lot of students who probably go to Christian private schools too, maybe even more so because they feel like their athletic department isn't strong enough. And so they have to do all these club sports. I'm not saying all of that is bad. But I think that she makes a good point that, you know, she made sure, she and her husband made sure that their kids did not have an identity in those extracurriculars that they spent a lot of shared time together. I think that's really important. I took something away from that because I'm already starting to feel the pressure of like, oh my gosh, what do I need to get my kids all involved in?

And how do I make sure that they're doing all of these things to ensure that I'm, you know, building up their strengths and they know who they are? And so I love that she created like peace and community in her home in that way. The host talks about the concern of diversity. How do you make sure in a private school that they're exposed to different kinds of people? Here's also the thing with this is that that I think is interesting is that public school proponents will say we lived by excellent schools. And typically they will. Most people who are attending public schools who have the ability to do this are moving to districts that have good academics that are excellent schools.

Typically, you can hate on me for this, but this is typically true. They are typically less diverse depending on how you define diversity than the schools that are not doing very well. And yet you don't see a lot of these like Christian public school proponents say, yeah, you know, I'm going to send my kids to the inner city Chicago schools to love our neighbor. Like, yeah, or, you know, in Jen Wilkins case, I'm going to send my kids to the South Dallas schools to like to love our community very often. Like, yes, they talk about diversity, diversity of viewpoints, but they understandably do what a lot of parents do that are sending their kids to a different kind of education. And that is choose the schools that are best and choose the schools that, um, offer the best opportunities. And so I don't know that it's really sincere for,

I'm not even saying Jen Wilkins, for anyone to say, oh yeah, we're choosing public school for the sake of diversity. Are you going to the most diverse school in your area? Are you choosing to do that? Or are you choosing the best school in your area? The school with like the wealthiest people, the school that has the most conservative values. Because if so, then you're simply doing like the same thing that parents are doing who give their kids a Christian education. except you're not taking that other step. Like, you are looking for like the best environment for your children, right? I mean, there's a reason why you're probably not sitting your kids to the inner city

schools and you're sitting your kids to the safer community. Like you are thinking about the well-being of your kids before you're thinking about, okay, well, would it help if I went to these inner city schools? So I think we just need to be honest with this. And by the way, I'm not as concerned about. the diversity aspect in education as I am with as I am with the exposure of wrong ideas at public school like life is diverse and like she talked about the importance of talking about things at home I think that there are plenty of lessons that we can learn in everyday life and again I don't

think that's a worthy sacrifice for my kids to make just because they may get a little bit more exposure to different people of different backgrounds at public school. To me, that's not worth not giving them a Christian education for. Okay, here's an interesting point that Jen Wilkin makes about she doesn't want Christians to necessarily take over public schools. I'll hear a lot from parents who will say, well, it's a public school, but all the teachers are Christians. And I'm like, well, I want my children to be exposed to all different kinds of teachers. And then I can parent them through whatever those are. So I don't want to covertly take over the public schools and make them Christian schools, although I value, you know, the ethics that that would involve

being in place in the public schools. But I think that because they're public schools, they need to serve a general population in a way that a Christian school doesn't. So I think this is, I think this is interesting because, again, this goes back. to the lack of neutrality argument. So what worldview is a better one to teach kids of all kinds? Like, what's the better set of values? What's the better set of morals than the ones that Christianity offers? That would do a better job of accommodating people of all different kinds of beliefs.

Oh my goodness. Of course I want my kids' teachers to be Christian. Christians. We can talk about different religions. We can meet people of different religions. We can talk about that kindness and respect, all of that. I think that's important. But again, education is discipleship. Why would I want someone who does not believe Jesus is the way, the truth in life, to disciple my child? And again, there's always a worldview in education. Why would I want to not just introduce them to, but inundate them with a worldview that is directly a to the one that I've worked very hard to ensure that they're implemented. That doesn't mean

lack of exposure. That doesn't mean putting them in a bubble altogether. So they don't ever know that anyone else exists. But again, I would ask like, what set of values is a better one to teach pupils with, to teach the larger community within the Christian one? Is it the Hindu one? Is it the Muslim one? Is it the secular progressive one? Is it the atheist one? Is it some a mysterious neutral worldview that is somehow out there? Like, is there some alternative between God's truth and a lie? I've never seen it. They talk about the financial aspect too. Many people just can't do it. But I would just say, look, we spend a lot of money on a lot of things. People go into debt for a mortgage. I'm not saying that I'm not recommending debt. I'm just saying we spend a lot of money on a lot of

things and also homeschool parents are not rich. I think there are a lot of people who probably could homeschool. They say that they couldn't, but really they just don't want to. And okay, that's fine. You don't want to. But most homeschool families that I know are not wealthy. Dr. Pennington talks about what about single moms who can't spend time discipling kids or for different reasons? People can't spend time discipling her kids. Jen, she pivots to expense, but I think he makes a good point that parents who don't have time to disciple their kids and they're sending their kids to public school, when are they supposed to get that like at home involvement and disciples shit that she says is necessary if you send your kids to public school? Now, I will say that I think it's more important to have parents involved than to send your kids to a Christian school. I do. And that's, I mean, obviously, I think that's a false choice.

I think that you should have involved parents discipling your kids and that they should be disciples through Christian education. But if there were a choice out there between parents who are absent because they have to work so much and they're sending their kids to private school and they never have any time with them versus parents who are present and are disciplining their kids and sending them to get kids to public school, yeah, I would choose the last one. I don't, I think that is very rarely like a true binary, but I think parental presence and involvement is so important that I would choose that. All right, let's talk about, I think this is, yeah, this is the, this is the last clip. My exposure to the Christian schools that I know of is not overly positive. I think when you're charging a premium to educate children, you have a vested interest in trumpeting the value of what you're doing in a way that doesn't always translate into outcomes. I'm not saying that's the way every Christian school is.

My daughter actually had an overwhelmingly positive experience in a Christian school that was that didn't come out of desegregation. You know, it was just a really sweet place to teach. And it was good for me to see that positive expression of Christian education because my mother had taught in Christian schools and had a negative experience. I had some baggage. So I do know it can be a great environment for kids, but it's never going to be a widespread solution for people just due to the necessary expense that it requires.

Yeah, and she's absolutely right about the expense, and I don't want to minimize that at all. To send your kids to a Christian private school can be over the course of their lives, hundreds of thousands of dollars that a lot of people don't have. And look, I do wish also that it was more affordable. Like, what can we do to make it a more widespread option? I've actually seen churches get really creative in this and they have created charter schools. And so they are free of charge and they're not necessarily, they're not necessarily teaching outright theology, but they are following a classical model and they're not following a lot of the secular progressivism that you're seeing in public schools. So she said it's not a widespread option. Let's not leave it there.

Like Christians have been in the business of building institutions, changing culture, and building refuges for the most vulnerable since the beginning. Like, what can we do to make education better that doesn't involve like sacrificing our kids and robbing them of a 13-year discipleship opportunity by giving them a Christian education? I see Christians doing this a lot. And I think that's amazing. And I'm thinking like, how can I? How can I get involved in something like that? Because I do want that to be a widespread solution for more people. And you did hear her say segregation. She actually mentions this earlier too. Or she implies it. She said, you know, we can look back in history and see what happens when Christians pull their kids out of school and the people that's left behind. And what she's talking about is segregation that some Christian schools were created because white parents didn't want their kids going to school with with black kids after integration happened look I don't know if she's trying to use it in this way but I don't think that that is a good argument at all against Christian education we can talk about the origins of a lot of things again we can talk about the origins of public education in this country we got a lot of problematic things there when we are looking at

the history of public education in this country and so again the question isn't whether isn't about like why private education started or why private school started. My question is like, what is it today? And again, what gives my kid the best discipleship opportunity? What pushes them more towards what is good, true, and beautiful and gospel centered and what pulls them further away from it? Like those, those are my, those are my questions. And there are a lot of other things that are talked about. Dr. Pennington says that each child's unique capabilities and development were really worked on when they were children because of the focus that they had and because of just the knowledge and the intimate, you know, the intimate knowledge they had of their child

and their strengths and their weaknesses. And he does talk about he makes a really good point that you help the community and bless the world by developing your child well. And I think that's absolutely, absolutely true. Now, Jen, Wilkins, she had a response to the criticism and I will read that and then I'll just talk about just a couple other things in my closing argument that other, much wiser and older Christians have said about education just kind of as a period, exclamation mark on this whole conversation. Gin Wilkins' response to the criticism. And actually, let's see, it was on Instagram too.

Let's see. I have it. I want to read the caption too. I have it pulled up on this document, which is the Twitter version, but I want to, I want to read her caption too, because I think that's important. All right. So she says this. Thread. It seems my recent remarks on public school are being misrepresented, so I'd like to clarify. I get it. It was an hour-long debate in an age of short attention spans, clips, and tweets can too easily obscure the flow of a longer argument. So a lot of people take issue with that first.

tweet that they read is kind of condescending that and I don't know if she meant it like this, but a lot of you have told me and I saw this on Twitter people saying that she seems to assume that the only reason people might really disagree with her argument is because they didn't watch the full thing and they just saw some de contextualized tweet or a clip or something and they responded to it and they misrepresented it. But all of you who have talked to me about it, you watched the full thing and then you gave me your response or your thoughts for better and for worse. She said, I did not say Christian should send their kids to public school to love their neighbor. Well, in the first answer that she gave, she does say that her choice to send her kids to

public school is linked to love of neighbor. She does say in her first response that she believes parents who can should send their kids to public school for the better of the community, the betterment of the community. She said, and we believe that our. participation in the public school system was directly related to loving our neighbors. And so if we could opt in, we absolutely wanted to. And so I don't know what to say. That is something that she said. I don't think that she said that you can't love your neighbor if you don't go to public school, but she does link it to love of neighbor. She said, I did not say Christian should send their kids

to public school to love their neighbor. This is a mischaracterization of my point. I did say what's best for my family is only one lens for families who have a choice in education. She didn't did link it to love neighbor. Again, I don't know. I just quoted exactly what she said. You can go back and listen for yourself. And yes, she does say what's best for my family is only one lens for families who have a choice in education. She actually said that we should push back on that because Philippians 2-4 says that we should think of the interest of others before ourselves. And she includes like her family in that. We should look to the interest of others before you just look for the interest of your families. She said, I suggested considering additional lens, the impact withdrawing

public schools has on our communities, particularly on families, without a choice in education. I did not say the love of neighbor means we must choose public school. Okay, you can go back and you can listen to her first answer and you can see if you deduce that. She might not have said that verbatim, but it's not really difficult to see why people picked up on that. Like I've said things that I don't need to say. I've said things that were taken the wrong way. Like personally, I think the best thing is say, I could see how people thought that because that's what I said, but that's not what I meant and here's why. She said, I did say that it's good for the community for those who opt out of public school to to find ways to support them through mentoring programs, supply, drive, service products,

the board meetings, et cetera. Yes, I agree. She did say that. I did say not all public school districts are equal by any means. And to learn firsthand what yours is actually teaching versus listening to hearsay. I did not say our kids should be missionaries explicitly said the opposite twice. That is true. I did see some people say that, oh, I don't want my kids to be salt and light. Jen Wilkin, she said explicitly that your kids shouldn't be. Now, I still. I still. see some inconsistency with that because she says your kids shouldn't be missionaries that it's up to the parents to be salt and light. But then she says you can be salt and light without sending your kids to public school. And so I, I again don't know the purpose of sending my kids

public school then. She said, I do recognize our children are first, our neighbors. I've written an article by that title. Yes, she has. It is possible to recognize this and also recognize our neighbor next door. Yes, I absolutely do. But as many people have pointed out, there is an order of our loves. And I know that she knows this. There is, I'm looking it up right now. Okay, First Timothy 5-8, but if anyone does not provide for his relatives and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. Now, I'm not saying that this is true of people who send their kids to public schools. This is not the characterization I'm making, but there is an order of loves. So I don't care about my neighbor's kids as much as I

care about my kids. Like people try to make this argument with immigration too, that we, that putting our country first and our interest in security first is somehow bigoted. It's somehow wrong. It's somehow unchristian. No, God has, God is a God of order. And he has made us to order our loves and societies, families. We are all in kind of these concentric circles. And there is only so much that we can care about. We have to prioritize our loves or else. That's not order that's actually chaos. Yes, I can love my neighbor's kids. But I am not going to to deprive my kids of a meal to feed my neighbor's kids. I'm going to do everything possible. I can to do both. But yes, I love my children more than I love your children. You love your

children more than I love my children. God did not give me your children to steward and to care for and vice versa. And so I am going to first look to the interest and security and well-being of my children. Not to ignore the well-being of everyone else. I absolutely agree with that. But we have to so order our loves in a way that reflects how God created us. And I think what he also says in scripture. And to me, that means, yes, when I'm looking at education and I'm looking at lifelong discipleship for my kids, I am going to first look at, okay, how do I best disciple and shape their minds? How can education be a part of that? She says, I do not think every family with a choice in education has to arrive at the same education choice. I explicitly said this

more than once. To some, my call to those with a choice in education is do your homework on your own district stay if you can, but if you can, be an active source of blessing to teachers, administrators, and students who are in your local schools. And I disagree with the stay if you can part. She says, and resist the urge to vilify your neighbor who sees things differently than you. That's it. And if you read opinions or interpretations, that my thoughts are more than this or different than this, don't buy it. The entire debate is there for watching. You don't have to rely on or amplify someone's someone else's potentially bad faith interpretation of a good faith debate. And disagreement doesn't have to mean denigration. Let's do better.

So let's do better. Do better. I'm sure that there were people who were denigrating her. And I think that that is wrong. I'm sure that there were people who personally attacked maybe and said some things about her that were not true. I didn't see that as much. I saw a lot of people adamantly disagreeing with her. Yes, they shared some clips. Most of the clips that I saw were actually in context. And the context of what she said didn't change what she said. Again, go listen to the hour long debate. I put it on, I sped it up. a little bit so I could listen to the whole thing, did that twice, went back, looked at all the clips before commenting. I had watched it all the way through and looked at the clips to verify what she had said. Some of this response and what she says simply is not, it's not true. So like I would just not even not don't rely on me completely. Don't rely on her response either to look at what she said. And also don't take public disagreement as denigration. Again, we can publicly disagree with public ideas. That is totally okay and I think actually very edifying. All right. I just want to read you some quotes by someone who is much, much more skilled to talk

about this than I am. I wish that the debate had been between him and Jen Welkin or anyone. Vody Bakum is really strong against public schools. And I've had them on my show twice and we talk about on the last time I had them on like the whole public school missionary thing and how a lot of people seem to think that that is a justification for sending your kids to public schools. So he wrote this article that I think makes some really good points at the Exodus Mandate.org. And he talks about some reasons to leave public education, top five reasons not to send your kids back to public school. This is his stance. And he says things like I would say a lot more strongly on this than I do. And he has homeschooled his kids. I believe he has eight children from grown to still school age.

He says one, the Bible commands Christ-centered education. He says, we should be training ourselves and our children intellectually, spiritually, philosophically, and morally. We have numerous warnings against allowing others to influence us intellectually, spiritually, philosophically and morally. Psalm 1, Romans 12, 1, 2, 2, Corinthians 614. Talks about Deuteronomy 6, 6 and 7. Proverbs 1, 7, Ephesion 6.4.

We can link this article, by the way. You can read it for yourself. He says, government education is anti-Christian. Our education is either based on biblical truth or some other alleged truth. There's no such thing as neutrality in this regard. All education is religious in nature, which I think is really important for us to know. Since it is illegal for students in our government schools to be taught from a Christian perspective, then it follows that they must be taught from a non-Christian perspective.

He says, America's schools are morally repugnant. Homeowners are forced under threat of the loss of their property to pay for the education of others' children. How is that appropriate? He says, number four, America's schools are among the law. worst in the industrialized world. America's students continually rank at the bottom in math, science, and reading compared to other industrialized nations. That's right. Our educational system is among the world's worst. We are the richest country in the world. Our education system is among the world's worst. That's something that Jen Wilkins talks about a lot, is that

the main priority for her was getting a world-class education. Look, I'm sure that there are a lot of public schools that do well academically and give excellent academics. I also happen to know that in that area, there are some of the best and strongest and most academically excellent Christian private schools in the world that probably like are not even on the same level as a lot of the even good public schools in their area. So I just think that that's something to consider. In general, like our public education system does not do well. That doesn't mean your district, but in general. So that's something that he's saying. And he says, look, the last reason is you don't have to. Your children are yours. They do not belong to Caesar. You don't have to take

them back to the local government indoctrination center next semester. That's what he says. He often says, if you send your kids to Caesar, don't be surprised if they come back Romans. That's not a guarantee. Your kids could come back Romans after Christian education. They could be indoctrinated in a million in different ways. They could come out of public education being very strong believers. That's true. He understands that they're exceptions to that rule. But he also understands that public education systems, just like all schools, are training soldiers in a particular worldview and ideology. It is discipleship. All education is a form of indoctrination. All education is a form of discipleship. He says, if someone asks me, should I give my child a Christ honoring education or should I have my

child be an influence on people who are unbelievers? Yes, why do we assume that the only way a child can have an impact and influence on unbelievers is if they give up a Christ honoring Christ-centered education? So I think that's a categorical error. He talks a lot more about this. And then there's, I don't have time to get into it. Gosh, this is so long. This might be one of my longest episodes ever. I'm sorry.

It's so much to say. So much to say. But the Puritans and the early reformers all the way up to Charles Spurgeon and then of course still Christians today had a lot to say about education. One thing that Martin Luther said, he said, I am afraid that the schools will prove the very gates of hell unless they diligently labor and explaining the Holy Scriptures and engraving them in the heart of the youth. Is that not biblical? Is that not? Deuteronomy 6? The Puritans cared a lot about education, building education and making sure that education was Christ-centered because they understood that nothing is neutral. Everything that is true is God's truth. Education is discipleship. If there is an option, if there is an option. between giving my kids an education that is characterized by a biblical worldview and an education that is not. If that is an option, if that is a choice, then we will do everything that we can. We will do everything that we can to pick the first one because, gosh, their little lives and their little mind and their little hearts, they're so malleable, they're so vulnerable,

they're so precious. We have such a short amount of time with them. Of course, I'm going to take every opportunity possible to make sure they're disciples in what is good and right and true. God is sovereign over them. He's sovereign over their souls and he is sovereign over their salvation and even their sanctification. Yes, but he has given them to me. He has given them to my husband and me to steward the best way that we can. So I'm going to try everything that I can to glorify him by ensuring that they are disciples in the beautiful and the true. All right, we're done. Over an hour and 40 minutes later. Okay, hope you enjoyed that. We'll be back tomorrow. with a bunch of crazy stuff that's going on.

I got plenty of commentary on that. Tomorrow will be a shorter episode. Don't you worry. All right. See you guys back here then. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country

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