Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - REPLAY | Kat Von D on Becoming a Christian

Episode Date: July 9, 2024

Today we’re joined by tattoo artist and entrepreneur Kat Von D to discuss her incredible testimony of coming to faith in Christ and her ongoing faith journey. Kat explains her upbringing and how she initially rebelled against going to church because it was only something she was told to do. We take a look at her rise to fame through the shows "Miami Ink" and "LA Ink" and her interest in spiritual practices that were just methods of putting Band-Aids on a sinking ship. She recalls her journey to sobriety and how her husband helped her readjust her thinking on not just her faith but also some political topics. We discuss her viral baptism video, some of the backlash she’s gotten from both non-Christians and Christians, and how she can actually use certain aspects of her life and style to reach those who may feel ostracized by Christianity or “Christian culture.” Then, what would Kat tell those who have questions about Christianity as she did? --- Relevant Episodes: Ep 170 | Is It OK to Celebrate Halloween? https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-170-is-it-ok-to-celebrate-halloween/id1359249098?i=1000452267090 Ep 514 | Halloween: Satanic Trick or Harmless Treat? https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-514-halloween-satanic-trick-or-harmless-treat/id1359249098?i=1000540050585 Ep 697 | Revealing the Real Origins of Halloween | Guests: Jeremiah Roberts & Andrew Soncrant (Cultish) https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-697-revealing-the-real-origins-of-halloween/id1359249098?i=1000583868843 --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

We are back from maternity leave, relatable listeners. We have a very special guest for you today. We've got Kat Von D. The famous tattoo artist and musician. She is here to share her testimony of how she recently in the last few years became a Christian. She shared this beautiful video of her baptism, which received so much attention, mostly positive attention, but a little bit of negative criticism as well. Let me play you a clip from the video that she posted. by our friends at Good Ranchers.

Go to Good Ranchers.com and use code Alley for a discount. That's Good Ranchers.com code Alley. Okay, without further ado, here is Kat Von Dee. Kat Von Dee, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. Yeah, thanks for having me. Okay, your full name. Can you pronounce your last name for us? Yeah, so my full name is Catherine von Drachenberg

or Drachenberg. Oh, I like that. I like that. It's very Dracula. But a long time ago, a friend of mine just, you know, kind of dumbed it down because it's very hard to pronounce. It's hard to read. So Kat Mondi was a lot easier for people. So it kind of stuck and became a bit of a nickname. Yeah. It's worked out. It's worked out. Okay. So a lot of people, most people watching, know who you are. They know you maybe from LA Inc. That's what I

originally know you from. Watching it on TLC a long time ago. They know you from your makeup line, they know you from your music, lots of things. Yeah. They may be surprised that you are on the relatable podcast with Allie Beth Suckie. So first, before we get into your story, can you talk about how we got connected? Yeah, sure. And I will say, you know, the reason I wanted to come and talk to you is because I just assumed that a majority of your followers and stuff might not know who I am either.

And I love that you have like a very large, like Christian, like faith-based following. and that's who I want to talk to right now versus like, you know, talking to my usual fans that I always talk to. But yeah, we met, well, I've been following you for a long time, which you probably don't know, just stalking you on Instagram. But I love your podcast and been listening to it a lot. And you actually, like, helped me find a lot of the answers that I was looking for at the time. And then I remember I DM'd you a few times about like looking for a specific, I saw a

of like a debate that you had or a conversation that you had regarding like Catholicism versus baptism baptism baptist or protestant and so I was like oh I really want to see that and I'm going to see if she'll she'll see my DM and then you did and then you you know you recommended a Bible which I got and I'm so grateful for because it's really helped in my Bible studies so so I feel like you know we just kind of connected through that yeah yes the ESV study Bible and also helps me so much with all the questions that I have. Yeah. Yeah. So when you did your Instagram live, a lot of people reached out to me and was like, oh my gosh, you know cat. And I was so thankful that you messaged me and I loved your baptism video, which we'll talk a little bit more about. And I really,

I don't think you know this, but I really wanted to ask you to come on the show after that, but I didn't want you to think that I just wanted you for a guest on my show and really like I cared about our friendship and our back and forth that we were having. And so I reached out to Bree and I was like, I really want to ask her, but I just don't want her to think that I just want her for relatable. I want her to know that I really care about her faith and her story just like from a friend perspective. Yeah. And so I had the same feelings too. I was like, I want to ask her, but you know, I know she's on maternity leave and I know what it was like. Like I took 40 days off after I had my baby. I was like, I didn't talk to anybody. Yeah. So it was like, I was very strict about that.

And I'm like, I don't want to be like, hey, I know you've got like bigger fish to fry, but like, can we talk? And so I was just so grateful that you were, you even made this happen. Yes. And then, well, you reached out to me. Yeah. You said something about it because I'm sure after the baptism video that you got a lot of requests for interviews. Did you? Yeah, I did.

I'm sure from conservative and Christian media. And so that's the same thing. I was thinking the same thing. I'm like, oh, my gosh, you probably has so many interview requests. So I feel like God really did just bring it together. Yeah. reached out to me. And as to come on the show, I was like, oh my gosh. Yes, absolutely. So I'm so glad that we made it happen and people are so excited. So excited to hear the story. So before we even get into

how you became a Christian, I kind of want to go all the way back. So who is Kat Von D? How were you raised? Well, I was born in Mexico in 1982 and my parents are, they're missionary Christians. They're both from Argentina, from South America. And so at the time of the birth of me and my siblings, my dad was on a mission in a very tiny Pueblito in the middle of nowhere in Mexico called Monte Morelos. It's in the state of Nuevo Leon, which is about seven hours south of Texas.

And he was building clinics in places that just didn't have them. And my dad's a pretty inspiring guy. And so we were born in a literal third world country environment and had no idea. And it was one of the most abundant times in our lives. You know, like our, I remember, like, the floors in our house were just packed dirt. We had no running water, no electricity. And I remember spending a crisp, like my first memory of my first Christmas was on those dirt floors,

opening up like a little homemade present that my parents got us. And it was just an amazing time for me. When I think about those years, it's like there's some of the best, best years of my child and and hopefully I can kind of somehow give something like that to my son in this crazy, wonky world we live in now. But so we were brought up, obviously, with God in our household. You know, my parents were quite strict with that. And, you know, we moved to America by the time I was six years old in Southern California.

And, you know, I talk to my pastor about it now because I, I, I understand. ended up straying. I ended up like being a pretty wild teenager and leaving home at the age of 14 running away and putting my parents through through a literal hell that I've made amends for now. But yeah, I had a lot of questions as a kid and I don't think my parents were equipped with the answers. And so that's like one of the things that I really, as a parent now that I really want to be able to do with my son when he asks questions and I don't want to just be like, oh, well, well, we just believe, you know, or it's just, like, that's what faith is, you just got to believe. And it's like, yeah, but I have legit questions, like, whether it's, you know, elementary

school level of dinosaur questions to, like, what the resurrection was. And they didn't really have that. So I did go to Bible studies as, like, a child. Like, I remember up until my early teens, I had read the Bible twice, but I read it not really, like, understanding or I just read words, you know, front to back. And so, yeah, sorry if I jump around, you can always stop me. That's okay. But I ended up, you know, going astray in a way.

Like, I think I discovered punk rock music at a very early age. And I don't want to blame that for my decision to, like, walk away from God. But because in reality, I think that's what actually brought me back to God. But was just this free-thinking mentality. is like to question everything, especially authority. And this was when you were kind of early teen, because you said you ran away when you were how old 14. Yeah.

And so was this right around that time, but you kind of started questioning things? Yeah. The punk rock world. Yeah. And I kind of actually like resented it too because, again, I didn't really have certain understandings. I just went to church because that's what you do.

Yeah. If you look different than you don't belong here, like there which is not, which is not how it should be. And so, yeah. So it's not that I went around thinking about it, like going like, I'm an atheist or I'm a this or anything. I just didn't care. I was just like, I don't believe in this. I don't like, you know.

And then as I got into my 20s, I guess, like I started looking without knowing into like new age stuff, I guess. I will say this that like after I posted my baptism video, I saw like a lot of headlines and things. and I think people like to, especially the media, they like to sensationalize stories and make them a lot more extreme than they really are. Like I was never in a cult. I was never in a, I was never a witch, like a self, like a self-proclaimed witch or anything like that. I was definitely not a Satanist, you know, but I think it kind of reads more enticing when you see like an extremeness of something. I definitely, I know I look and dress like a villain, so it's easy to like be like, oh, well, this is an exceptional story, but I don't really have like, a testimony that's like, I don't know, I've heard a lot more inspiring testimonies in my own, but it's not that crazy, you know? But I think that I was just searching for answers and meaning

in so many of the wrong places like most people do. And I, I, uh, yeah, I think, I mean, I don't know if I should just jump to where we are now because it. You can back up, let me back up a little bit. So you ran away when you were 14. You put your parents through a lot as all teenagers do, but running away is obviously a big deal. Yeah, it's awful. And I read that you were sent to boarding school when you were 15, correct?

Kind of. Are you talking about like the Utah thing? So I ran away when I was 14. I came back and tried to work it out with my parents. And you have to understand, you know, I had like a Mohawk at the time. I shaved my head. I started getting tattooed at the time. So they were worried. This was a shock. And not to mention, like, my poor parents, they're not Americanized by any means at this time.

Like, they're coming from a completely different culture. They're really, they really believe like their child has been possessed by a demon, you know? And which is not the case. I tried to explain that to my parents, but they, you know, it's, it's a different generation. And, and, you know, I think there could have been conversations that could have been had to help. But at the same time, I wouldn't change anything because it's really what brought me to where I am now anyway. So, so yeah. And then at one point, my parents were pretty desperate to like fix me, you know, or fix whatever they thought was wrong.

Or help you. They probably thought that they were just trying to help you. Of course. Of course. Yeah. Or just worried. You know, I mean, like at the time you had to understand there wasn't any like TV shows that normalized tattoos or anything like that. The only people getting tattooed back then were like you

were a gang member or a prostitute or a drug addict. So like you know. And this was like mid 90s. Right. Whatever you're that. Yeah. Yeah. Uh huh. And so, uh, you know, my poor parents. And so they sent me off to a school and I, I don't really consider a school. I think it was, it's like, um, I don't understand why these institutions are even still legally, you know, available to parents, but I think that's like for another podcast and basically it's just, you know, this, these, how would you describe it? It's a, I call it a lockdown facility, you know, it's a, it's a place where parents write off their rights to their child and put them in the hands of people with no supervision and there was just a lot of abuse, not to me that,

thankfully, I didn't have to endure some of it. I think there was some mental abuse, obviously, but nothing physical that I saw with other people there. Was it a religious institution or no? It was, I wouldn't say it was religious, but the people that worked there were all, it was in Utah, so they're all Mormons. But they didn't make us go to their church or anything like that. No, it was just, I think honestly it's like a big scam

where they just scam like scared parents out of money. And I was there for about six months. I lied my way out of there and then was taken to like, another like like kind of like a transitional boarding school like situation by at that point I started drinking um you're about 16 17 yeah and so I started drinking not for fun I was for uh to cope with probably some of the trauma and I didn't understand that that was like kind of the beginning of my addiction and I came back home trying to work it out didn't really work out at that point both my parents and I like agreed this isn't good for any of us you should

probably go on your own. And so I had already started tattooing at that point. And I was making a lot of good money for a teenager and living in really rough areas. Were you in L.A.? Yeah, I was outside of L.A. in San Bernardino, which was about an hour and a half, two hours with traffic. And, and yeah, so, and then I fell in love with tattooing. You know, I really saw that as a calling. I was good at it. I was good at people. was a good listener and I was an artist so it just you know worked worked out and and then I just like started quickly kind of outgrowing the the little ponds that I was in and so I jumped to like another tattoo shop with more experienced artists and and then I made my way towards Los Angeles and yeah and I guess yeah from there I just I got on TV I guess and when did you knew that you had

artistic talent? Since I was, I can remember. Yeah. Yeah. My parents, we were very, you know, we were not well off at all. I don't come from money. So I remember going to church and like being bored out of my mind and like during the sermon, you know, as a child on the floor, just drawing. I would take the tie of the envelopes and open them up and take the little pencils that were in the pews. Yeah, and just start drawing. And I really gravitated towards realism. I loved drawing people. Like I would draw my family members or if I saw a pretty girl in a magazine, I would, I loved facial structure and kind of try to reproduce that with my human abilities. Yeah. And you're also a classically trained pianist, right? Yeah. My grandmother was a pianist, so she started trading us when I was five.

So you, like you said, you jumped to bigger and bigger ponds, got closer to L.A. as a tattoo artist. At this point, you're like late teens, early 20s. Yeah. Yeah. And when, how old were you when L.A. Inc. started. So I first got on a show called Miami Inc. And I was 20, barely 21 or so. And I was at this point, a full-blown alcoholic. I was drinking all the time. I was, I got introduced to drugs at that point. But I was functioning. So like somehow I miraculously like showed up to work every day and I did a great job, you know? And then, but behind that was just, you know, this growing addiction. And I did Miami Inc. for as long as I could,

as long as I contractually had to, because it was a very miserable experience. And I had signed the contract while I was drunk without a lawyer or anything like that. And I had no idea that I had signed away the rights to my name and my likeness and my art and everything I created. And so to nullify that contract, I was offered,

I was offered to do LA Inc. And so I, I didn't want to. I just wanted to get away from whatever that whole process. I never, I wasn't the type of person that was like, I want to be on TV and I want to be famous. I just like love tattooing and I wanted to be a good representation of the industry that I was in. And but the people that, you know, I was casted with, we just didn't get along. And so I was like kind of forced to be with people that didn't respect me or whatever. Yeah. So I signed the contract for LA Inc.

And opened up my shop in L.A. And I had that shop for about 12 years. But we filmed the show for another 39 episodes or something like that. Yeah. And you said at this time, mid-20s, you kind of got into the new age. You were still an alcoholic at this point, right? Yeah. And I wasn't like full blown into it, but I was like, you know, I think I was a seeker.

So, but nothing, I wasn't really actively pursuing any. belief system. Yeah. I just was sad. You know, I was drinking and I was trying to find answers in the wrong places. And it wasn't until I got sober, which is, it'll be 17 years ago in July, that I, you know, really opened up my eyes to wanting to fix myself. And that's when I started getting into a lot of the new age stuff. Like a lot of self-help books, you know, that's kind of, that was kind of like the gateway. to it. Like law of attraction stuff or not really? No, I was like into and I mean I don't want to obviously like

diss any like authors or anything but just like like into meditation a lot of meditation and spiritual yeah yeah but so yeah it wasn't it wasn't like I was like I'm going to go sell my soul or anything like that. I honestly like Satan is not on the radar for me. So yeah when I got sober I didn't go to AA. I read the big book, which I loved, and I still love that book. I feel like I do have notes, but like, you know, I think, I think in general, like, doing a 12-step for everybody, everybody would benefit from, you know, doing your inventory and making amends and doing all that stuff. That was very helpful for me. You know, they really talk about having a higher power.

And that's the part where I'm like, oh, I feel like you're missing the God part because, like, you know, they won't, like, have a, like, they don't ever talk about, you're, you're high. higher power can be this cactus in the corner, you know? It can be Ozzy Osbourne or something. You know, it's not, whereas like for me, I feel like, I've been sober for a long time, but I don't feel like I was free from all it until I found God, you know? And I feel like that would be so cool. I mean, whatever, I'm not going to really diss on the AA program because it helps a lot of people. But so, yeah, I think that's when I just started looking into that type of literature.

and then I started learning about Transcendental Meditation. And I was like, oh, like, it was always these very, like, short-lived band-aids on a sinking ship. You know, that's kind of how I see it. Yeah. It's like, oh, this feels really good. And I'm, like, so at peace. And I've, like, been able to, like, you know, I'd have anxiety at the airport. I'd go into the bathroom and, like, say my mantra and then, and that'll be fine.

It's like, but it was these crutches, you know. Right. So now I'm going to fast forward to like the first post that I ever made about talking about like throwing away my cult books. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that everybody kind of honed in my fans included on the witchcraft books because there was a lot more of those and there was the others. But I actually threw away all my meditation books, all my books on yoga. Like it wasn't just the the stuff that people considered spooky, which, you know, I don't think some of it is. but um and and i think that it's easier to look at like a story like what i wrote and and mind you i

prayed a lot about that post prior to doing it um like i spent time on writing that caption because i knew the intentions behind it were to like start being able to talk about where i'm at in life you know and that was what 2020 yeah i think so yeah and uh and it was such an so so i posted this post on Instagram where I just took a picture of a good chunk of these books that I took from my library. I have a library of like three to 500 books. And so this was a very small, like a small amount of books out of that collection that I just wanted to get rid of. Like it, I don't want to say that they were haunting me, but it's like I already knew they were

there. I have my son who's growing up and is becoming curious. And it's like, you know, there are some art books I threw away too that weren't in that picture that were like, I don't know if I want my kid to look at that, you know? like um and but to me it was like i came to this really awesome realization that the that night that i that i um decided to post that was that like i don't want these crutches in my life anymore you know and that's what i really saw them as is like okay like um i just want jesus and it's a very narrow a narrow road right like i feel like all these other like these breathing techniques or

these um or like spellwork or whatever like um nature worship all these things it's like um they're just crutches they're not really like my answer and so for me i would rather eliminate any distractions and this is just for what works for me you know so that was like it was a symbolic gesture i guess in a way but it was it was my first like proclaiming of where i stand with certain things and it was crazy to watch the reaction because in the comments it was like I literally I feel like you could see literal demons hissing at each other and and it was coming from both sides you know from people that were like oh I don't think Alistair Crowley's evil or or hey like why would you throw this away you should give them to people like that's so wasteful or whatever or there's nothing wrong with

what I see in these pictures and then there would be the Christians that are like attacking and kind of saying saying equally as evil things too. you know, that weren't helping anybody. And that night, I feel two people came to my house. So at the time we lived in L.A., and we had a gated house. And I was upstairs with my son, and the doorbell rang, and we had like a security system. And my husband looks, and it was, he screenshotsed it. And it was just this possessed person, you know, who just was like, hi.

You know, I don't want to freak you out. but I just want to know if I could please have those books. You know, like I really need those books. I need those books. And it was just like, and you could see the darkness in this eye. And like, why I think like when I say things, I definitely think that people over, over, over spiritual eyes.

No, I just, I just think a lot of people, especially in the Christian community, like call everything demonic. And I don't think everything is demonic. Like, but in this case, I was like, I think this is a definition of a demon. Like this person is possessed and is no longer in control of what they would normally do because a, they're possessed either with fame or with the desire to, to bring certain evils into your life, you know? I think that's crazy. You know, my, my husband ushered him away.

Then the second person came and they tried to break into our trash cans. Wow. Which I already throw. Huh? To get the books. Yeah. Yeah. Which were all readily available online anyway.

I mean, I did have like. first editions of stuff, but like, but it's like, what is it in you that's like so, um, desperate for, you know, like again, trying to find these answers in the wrong places, a literal trash can. Yeah. You know, and it, it kind of was like a very like sobering moment for me because I was like, man, like this, I don't want to have anything to do with this, you know, anymore. So in 2020, when you posted that, you said that you saw those as crutches and all you wanted was was Jesus. So at that point, you were a Christian. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay, so when did that? Probably a year before that. A year before that. So let's talk about that a little bit. How did how did you become a

Christian out of the world of just kind of spiritualism? So funny it was funny enough, I kind of blame my husband or give him the credit. He, it was during like right before, right when the lockdowns happened was, I came downstairs and he just said, hey, baby, I think we got it wrong. You know, I think we got a lot of things wrong. And I was like, no, no, you know. And I was never like a politically charged person. I would say like ignorant political things just out of like, you know, because I don't watch TV. I don't like really know.

I mean, I would see like whatever my friends would post or things like that. But I was never like I couldn't tell you who's an office or anything like that, you know, at the time. And then so my husband was like, hey, like I want to show you some stuff, you know. like it would be some articles and some videos and stuff and I was like oh man like I really got to start rethinking a lot of things that I thought were true you know and that was kind of the first step into questioning everything I had been doing yeah was it mostly we don't have to get into the details on this but like the stuff that he was showing you did it because you said it was around the lockdowns yeah was it mostly regarding that kind of thing or was it more theological

in nature the things that he was talking about I no it was like revolving more around like like political things. And, um, and, you know, you have to understand at that time, like, like, BLM was going hard and in LA. And I was in the middle of it. Like I lived three doors down from the mayor of LA. So yeah, we had Antifa like on our front yard. Yeah. You know, after they threatened to like do the Molf Toff cocktails and stuff like that. And like, you know, so we were just like seeing things in real time and, and they were much worse in real life than I think what people even put on TV. And so, so I was like, man, maybe like, you know, So I started just kind of like reevaluating, kind of going down the list of what I'm doing with my life and like what my perspectives are.

And then it got to the part of like my spirituality. And that's where I started really rethinking a lot of things. And so I think a friend had sent me a sermon from Pastor Jack Hibbs. And I loved it. Like it really spoke to me and like it answered a lot of questions that I had. And so then I started that my my son at the time was like still a baby. So I wasn't going to church. But I would, we would watch like sermons every Sunday.

And and so that was kind of like I just desired more and more and more. And so I just started studying the Bible. And it was like I think it was, it's it's so cool to be able to do it as an adult. You know? I think like I was very lucky that I had parents that were Christian and enforced. certain things at a time when I couldn't understand things, even though it wasn't as effective, like I do credit my dad for everything because I remember finding myself in very dark moments and like intuitively I was praying. Yeah. You know, and it wasn't because my dad made me. Like,

it was because he was, because he'd been waiting. That's all, you know? And so like when you can fall in love and learn as an adult, it's so much more meaningful and real than it is when you're a child just doing it because this is what we do, you know, and this is how we do it, you know. So, I mean, I'm like, I'm on fire for Jesus. Like, I don't plan on this dimming out. Like, the more and more I learn, the more and more excited I get about things and the more at ease I am about what's happening in this world and what's happening. like in my marriage or in, you know, and all of it. So, so I do want to go back, though, to like the, the occult stuff because,

I don't want to say occult stuff, but like, you know, just like the, like the tarot cards and all that stuff. Like, you know, not to diss any of my friends because I have a lot of friends that are into that stuff. And I love them so much, you know. I have actually more empathy and understanding than I think an average person because I've been there. But like, but I will say that my husband and I, we look at the role decks of friends that we have. And the ones that are dictating their life through that and they're making life decisions through taro or through, you know, some of the witchcraft stuff. Like even the meditations. Or like, you know, and I'm going to definitely offend a lot of people, but like the ayahuasca trips or the meditation caps and silent retreats, all the things that I used to do except.

I never did iwasco, but like, they're also miserable. Yeah. And like, they're the most broke people. Usually most of them are single. They don't have stability. And I'm talking about like both financial and like the love around them. Right. There's always this, this drama and dread and doom and gloom.

And I was one of them, you know? And it's like, that's one thing that I would look around at my Christian friends. And I'm like, they're not perfect by any means. Yeah. But I want what you have, you know? Like, I love. the light that you have and it's like um so so you know we're like let's not be dummies anymore and let's just like figure out with this like this like this obviously hasn't worked for us you know let's like

explore this and so that's kind of like my whole perspective on it i don't you know i think um again like i have no intentions of cutting off my friends that i don't necessarily agree with or um you know don't see things the same way i don't think jesus would either and so it's like because i do I got a lot of criticism after I posted that baptism video. And I think that like Christians, you know, when you do that, you don't realize how much harm you're doing. You know, like I would look at a lot of the comments that I got. And they were really cruel and very, very annoyingly holier than now. And I would look at some of them and say, okay, let's look at like, what is,

to be gained from this comment. Like who does it help to be a know at all? Like who does it help? Does it help? Does it help all my other followers following and like witnessing the judgment and the criticism? And definitely of not knowing the other person. You know, like everyone's like, oh, well, she's a baby Christian.

So you know, you should cut her some slack. It's like, I'm not a baby Christian. I mean, yeah, I just recently got baptized. But like, I'm not like, this didn't happen yesterday. Like I have an understanding of a lot of the things that people are talking about. Like I'm not going to dress like how you think I'm going to dress. Like nothing's changing in that department. Like even like with like the, you know, the music that I make or or some of the content that I make, it's like it's not for you.

You know, it's not for you. You have no idea how many DMs that I got from like other got kids that are in the same boat as I was. They're going, man, I'm at this crossroad and I want to go back to church. But like I don't have a church to go to. or I feel like like even within my own family unit, people have like, I'm an outcast and like, and I'm trying to make my way back to Jesus, but like these people, you know, like, thank you for doing that, you know? And it's like, so I don't have any intention on like conforming to what somebody's like uniform or what their idea of darkness is, you know, because I don't, I don't think I'm a dark person. I have, I wear dark clothes, but like,

I like people's like definition of darkness is a lot different you know like like what's dark to you might not be to me like I'm not I don't I'm not scared of death like I talk about all the time my entire career was based on that you know I tattooed portraits of dead people on their loved ones for decades and like so I've read every grieving book I've read every bereavement book I've read like you know that's I think death is something that like we should be able to talk about and you know when I see a skull I don't think like, oh, that's demonic. I just, this is not for me. But if it triggers you spiritually, then keep scrolling, you know, like, or don't listen to my music or whatever it is. But I think that, like, the amount of, like, critical Christians on my Instagram now have become such a turnoff to people who are actually seeking God that, like, I had to just block and delete.

Like, even if it's good stuff, I just, like, if people talk about, I just, this is not for you, you know? And it's like, you end up pushing people away. And like, the one person that I think about through all this is my husband, you know, because when we got together, we were both not Christian, you know, we got married and then he's really helped me without knowing find my way. And he's not necessarily on the same page. I mean, in some ways he is, you know, he's very supportive. We go to church together, you know, every Sunday. He always supports me. We prayed together. But there's parts of him that's still questioning.

And like after that getting so much grief from people that spilled over into my husband, he was like, I remember the next morning, he was like, babe, I don't want to be a part of that. Yeah. You know, and it like, I'm trying not to get emotional because it's like, I've been working for years, like trying to like lead by example and share what I, you know, the step, my own stepping stones with him to like, Hopefully one day he can come to me and say, hey, guess what? Like, I've given my heart to Jesus. That hasn't happened yet.

But when you, when you have, like, an entire community of people, like, attacking you, like, man, like, you're, you know, not to say that my husband is, like, you know, going to do something based on a comment on Instagram, but when it's getting amplified so much, like, it turns people off, you know? And not everyone's like that, you know, like our church is amazing. Like, the first day we went, you know, my husband didn't want to go. he's like, do I have to go? And I'm like, yeah, you have to go. Like, that's going to be a rule now, you know? And, you know, when we moved to Indiana, I was like, our first mission is to find our church, you know? And like, it might take us a year.

It might take us a week, but we got to just try. And I had a list of Baptist churches that I wanted to explore. And the first one. And why Baptist? Sorry to interrupt you, but I'm just curious about that. Well, I mean, I'm not too much into denominations either, but I feel like when I look at the breakdown of, like, there. their approach to scripture is just like aligns with what, you know, like, yeah, what I feel.

So, yeah. I mean, I'm for it, obviously. I'm supportive as a lifelong Baptist myself. Yeah, I just was curious about that. Okay. Yeah. And I wasn't born into a baptister. So it's like, you know, I think like to me, it's cool to be able to, like I said, as an adult have an understanding.

And I looked at things like there's things about, you know, uh, you know, uh, you know, I'm seeking more traditionalism. Like I don't, like when it comes to my worship, and this is just for me, it's like, I want to worship. Like, I don't want to go to a concert. I don't want to, I don't like, like, we all dress nice when we go to church. That's just our own personal thing. Like, this is a sacred space.

And like, I, like, that's how I do it. And I feel like other, other, other outlets and stuff like just didn't really align with, um, with what, what, what I'm looking for, you know? But so, so I feel like God just like spit me out in on the doorsteps of the most perfect church for us. And we go in there and there's, you know, it's a very small congregation. It's a lot of old people. And they, my parents were always late as a kid. So I have anxiety about being late. I do not like being late. And so I was like, all right, well, I got there too early. and we interrupted their prayer circle.

And these people just stood up and embraced us. And they were just, they didn't really care about who people think we are. You know, they were just like, oh, yeah, you're the lady that bought the house down the street. And we've been, we've actually been praying for you. And like, and so then I was like, okay, well, let's try this out because it's like, you know, I want to see if what the pastor's all about pretty much. Like I want to learn about the Bible. Like I don't want like necessarily feel.

feel good stories or, you know, like, like I'm here to learn. And so and then, you know, Pastor Brian is like, um, that's, that's what he's all about. So, so I was like, man, I can't believe that, you know, we got lucky and found this place so quickly. And we love it. And so my husband responds to that and like, you know, we, um, he's, he's learning in his, in his own, you know, on his own path and his own way and our, you know, um, so that's, been good but then I feel like when we step out of that our that place like that's when it becomes like triggering for him you know and you're in a unique position because you have such a large audience yeah that you are going to attract yeah the you know extremes of anything just by being a person

on the internet yeah I do want to talk about the baptism video a little bit just for some people who may have missed that and we talked about it a little bit in the introduction but you posted this beautiful, beautifully artistic baptism video. Is that your actual church? Yeah. The building. It's beautiful. Thank you. Um, it is beautiful. And like you said, you received, well, you received a lot of, um, positivity, a lot of positivity, but then you said that you received some criticism. And you talked a little bit about the whole year than now kind of self, righteous comments that you got. But specifically, what were they criticizing you for? Was it like, this is not genuine? Yeah. So there's a lot of it. There was a lot of it. There was a

I mean, like, it went from, well, her hand wasn't like completely submerged into water, so this is fake. Or it doesn't count. That kind of stuff. I've never heard that. Yeah. Like, you have to be fully submerged. But like, you know, I was holding on to Pastor Brian's hands when, you know, and I weigh 150 pounds. Like he's like an older gentleman.

Like I was like, thankful he didn't drop me or whatever, you know. So but and then other people were like, um, she's faking it. This is just for a PR stunt. And like, you know, I didn't, you weren't there, you know, it's like people weren't there. And like, there was one recently that I saw that was. And I, like I said, I typically do not respond to just block and delete. But one of them I responded to recently because it was just so crappy, just the, like, who would say this?

But right before I went into the water, my, so, so I joined the. the church choir and I wanted to sing my tribute, the song called My Tribute, and on that day. And so I sang that with my choir. And my dad plays the trumpet and he ended up doing a trumpet version of my tribute when I was in the back getting ready to go in the water. So I was already crying before we even went in. And so the whole entire time, you know, I'm listening to Pastor Brian when he's saying. And the whole world was disappeared and I'm in this water with my pastor and then he calls me a sister in Christ and I just the whole time I was just fighting tears you know and so in the video I'm doing this like

you know and somebody's like look she's just laughing the whole time like it's fake and I was like man you know you're no fun like I just like people like what do you guys because I don't have that within me when I'm when I'm on Instagram like I see plenty of stuff that that I don't like or that I don't agree with or that I think is silly or crazy. I just scroll on past it. Yeah. But to somebody to like rain on somebody's like,

I like you don't, it's so. Looking for something. It's so crazy. But you know, I also, I'm not an idiot. I knew that when I posted that video that people would have questions. And I also knew like the moments leading up to it. It wasn't like, it wasn't planned. You know, I strategically like, um,

you know, I hired a camera guy. You know, I wanted to, to me, this, I've been documenting my life since I was 20. And I, this was one of the most important days of my life, like, I want to document it, just like I would document my wedding, you know? And to share it with, with the world, it was intentional, you know? It's like, I've, I mean, there's, there's the symbolic gesture of baptism, but there's also a part for me is like, a bit of a making amends with my followers because for so many years I've been putting out a certain message that that makes me sad that I was ever even a part of. And so to publicly proclaim this

was was me setting some things right, you know, and this just is for me. You know, it has nothing to do with, you know, my church isn't involved in that thought process, you know. But it was important to me to share that, you know, because I could have just kept it to myself and just kept going on, but I was like, no, this is something I want to celebrate and I want to be, like, open and honest about it. And I don't plan on being evangelical in a sense of, like, posting about my faith or, you know, like, to be honest, that outside of talking to you, I really don't plan too much to talk about it and that's just my own like where I'm at with it you know I feel like like there are some people that that have the gift of that you know like like my pastor or like you and um like

pastor Jack Gibbs or whatever and I think that there's some people that like can be quiet witnesses and that's me you know like I do better like one-on-one with people and I feel like now that I've like come out and shared where I stand with my faith, like, if somebody DMs me or if someone on the street comes up to me or talks to me or one of my friends, which this has already happened, says, hey, like, I want to know more about this. Like, totally cool. But I'm not going to be, like, you know, pounding on everybody's, like, front door. It's just not, that's just not, I'm Amish about it. Yeah. Okay. So I do want to ask a couple questions that some people might have. And this is just as someone who has never been in the punk rock world, not his tattooing world.

It's a totally different world than most of my audience is familiar with and me too. So like you said, your style is your style. The kind of music that you play is the kind of music that you play. Some people who are just totally outside of that world, they will look at something like vampires or black or whatever it is. or Marilyn Manson or things like that. And it's scary. Yeah. And it does feel dark.

Yeah. And so I think some people have the question of like, oh, how can you hang out? How can you like run in these circles and like be promoting things that do seem ghastly or, you know, deathly or whatever? And so kind of how do you approach that? Yeah. I mean, there's different. So there's a few parts to that.

I think like, you know, like I've listened to all of your episodes on, um, like Halloween and stuff like that. I think like as somebody like this is an easy way to explain it for me. It's like I'm sober. You know, I used to do drugs and drink and I no longer do that. I can be around it and not be tempted, but I choose not to be around it. Like especially the drug stuff, you know, like I like if you're doing drugs in front of me, I'll, I'll leave. Like it's just not my thing.

It's a it's a trigger for me or whatever. I don't even like that word. but you know, whereas there's, I have friends of mine that they can have a glass of wine on the weekend and they're still in control of themselves. Like, and they're not, you know, abusing it like I was. You know, like I personally cannot have one drink, one drop of tequila or I will destroy my life and everything around it. That's just how it is for me. And so I think like when it comes to things like Halloween or like, you know, like I said, I don't like using the term dark stuff because I don't. really consider it dark, but, um, but like if it triggers you, then just don't participate in it. Like, you know, if it doesn't trigger you, I feel very sound in my faith. Like, I don't, I'm not going to be swayed by my neighbor to, um, become, to join a cult. I'm just, I'm just not, you know, um, but I think when it comes to music, and I've been thinking so much about this lately,

because I don't, you know, you have to bear with me because I'm still kind of, um, refining how I think about it, but like, like secular music. you know, like I listen to secular music. I do not listen to worship music. Like, I like to sing it in church. And when I'm singing hymns at church, like I, it's a whole different experience than when I listen to, you know, The Cure or whoever,

Depeche Mode, whoever I'm listening to, you know. It's like a different process, you know. So I went to like a big church when I was in California, recently and I'd never been to a church like that before and I loved the sermon. I love the message. The people were so nice and great and everything, but I will say I didn't like, I couldn't enjoy the song part of it, you know, like both my husband, I looked at was like it just didn't feel, it feels weird to us. Like it feels like we're watching a concert. I'm watching somebody sing a song and because I know how to write a pop song, I'm like, all I'm thinking of is the

songwriting session that it took to get to this and like the emotional cues and, and, like, the emotional cues, and then the repetitiveness of it, the drop, and then here comes this. And it's just like, I don't, it doesn't, and everybody was singing along. I'm like, okay, so they listen to that in their cars. Like, that's what they listen to. And that's, that's totally cool. It's just not for me, you know? Like, I just want to listen to like the old stuff, you know?

And that, so, so I'm like, should I stop listening to love songs? You know, because that's, that's my genre is like, I just write love songs. And a lot of them are reflection, they're sad love songs, you know, they're like, or like reflections of experiences I've had or feelings I've had when my husband and I get into fight or whatever it is. You know, like these are expressions of my experience. And I think, like, is it wrong? And you can help me maybe figure this out.

Is it wrong that not everything is about God in a sense or Jesus? Like, is it wrong that like some people like listen to the Bee Gees sometimes or Holland? my dad likes hall notes, you know, or whatever. Like, should we only listen to at all time? And to me, I'm like, I don't know. I don't think Jesus would be bummed at me for listening to The Cure. I don't. Like, I think about sports.

I don't know anything about sports at all, but people like to watch sports. They're obsessed with it. I think where I live right now, everybody's wearing orange t-shirts. I'm assuming because there's like an orange, like, football team or something. And it's like, is that wrong? Yeah. Like, I don't know, you know. Yeah.

But they're enjoying it. Or is eating, like, food that's not good for us? Like, that's not about Jesus, but we enjoy it. We enjoy this form of entertainment that, you know, at the end of the day, I just know I'm not going to listen to something that doesn't sit right with my heart, with my faith, with whatever, you know, like, there's certain things that I won't listen to. Like, and those are my own boundaries, you know, but so I don't know. I don't have the answer to that, you know.

So there's that part with the music, but maybe you can talk about that more. Yeah, well, I certainly wouldn't say that I have all the answers because those are really good questions. The thing that comes to mind is that God is the source of all truth and all beauty. So all truth is God's truth. Just because something that is mathematically true isn't necessarily something that you would find in the Bible, doesn't mean that it's outside of Christianity or not of God. God created it. God created all beauty. he created all truth. So something can glorify him, even if it's not, I think, specifically about Jesus

or quoting the Bible because he created that person to have artistic talent. He created those words. He created poetry. He created literature. And so, yes, I listen to secular music too. But here's an example. Yeah. And I've got my producers as Swiftie, so I don't know if she'll be offended by this. But, okay, so there are Taylor Swift songs that I really like and I can listen to. There are lots of songs. like this, but then there are some songs that I hear it and I'm like, I just can't listen to this without it feeling convicted. One of the songs that I just cannot listen to by Taylor Swift is Karma. I don't know any Taylor Swift song. Yeah, well, just the whole concept of karma. You know, you're familiar with it. People are familiar with it. But she's basically talking about how karma is

on her side because of all these good things that she's done. It's against this person who is against her. I can't listen to that because like I think about the millions of girls who are taking in the theology of that song and getting so confused and so miserable like you were saying people caught in the new age. But that doesn't mean that I can't listen to I don't know love story by Taylor Swift or like my husband and I love watching the office. It's entertaining. Is every single part of it God glorifying? No. Is every single part of it biblical? No.

But it's kind of like one of those things like you were talking. talking about. Some of this individual. And then obviously, I do think there are objective standards of sin in the Bible, too. There are some things we definitely shouldn't be listening to, definitely shouldn't be watching because they glorify sin. Yeah. Yeah. So that's like a very general answer. So vampires, for me, it's like, the vampires aren't real. I like, to me, I like, I think it's entertaining to think about certain things, you know, like, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, when you're kid you're like, what if I could fly or what if I was invisible? What would be, you know, like,

these are just thoughts. Like, I, I always thought like this weird fascinate people's fascination with wanting to live forever, which to me would be like such a curse, you know? And it's like, so, and how we wrote, people romanticize that, you know, but, or like exorcism movies. Like, I used to, that was my favorite genre before. I don't watch horror movies anymore, just, not for any other reason. I just, I just don't want to get scared anymore. But, but, but, some of my favorite movies to this day are about exorcisms and like there was like one specifically about um the exorcism of emily rose which was more it wasn't a horror movie as more of like a court case movie about like a real and it happened in real life like where a lady a girl got um supposedly possessed by a

demon and the church didn't you know there was a court case between the church and the medical field like trying to figure out like what was would have been the right way to help this person and i reflect on that in such a biblical way. Like I see like, like I see demonic possessions, like I say, especially in addiction and in like the guy who came to my door like that night. Like so when I do watch some of that stuff, like I do think about, you know, my faith. I don't think about like, well, this is so great and gory. That's not, that's not my approach.

I'm thinking in a more, you know, I don't want to say philosophical, philosophical, but like I'm thinking about it in a different way than just like getting off on darkness, you know? So and that, but that's just for me. Like a lot of people don't like talking about death or demons and things like that. Like to me, it's not, I don't have a problem with that. But to go back to answer your other question about like people like Merrill Manson in my life or my husband, for example, you know, he writes extremely dark lyrics, which, you know, now that we're at a certain point, you know, he does plan on retiring a lot of songs that he won't. sing anymore like people change you know like I've said some really cringy and awful things in my past interviews that I'm like oh I hope nobody ever looks that up or even the books I've written in the past I'm like oh I was a 20 year old dumb kid like you know that's not who I am anymore you know I met Merrill Manson through sobriety you know he I think he I believe he just celebrated two years of sobriety now and that what like I said that was a little bit of a gateway for me to like find my way back to God. And so I happily facilitated a friendship

over that. You know, I believe that all people have the ability to change. You know, Ted Bundy on his like last, you know, in her final interview before being killed, had turned his life to God. And and so I just feel like, like, why would I turn away my friends who, who know where I stand on things and know that I will always be an open door if ever the time comes that they have a question because that happened for me, you know, like when I made my way back, like, I remember I called my friend Tara. Like my friend Tara never like, you know, banished me, you know, because of the dumb things that I said and did, you know, and we're still very close now because of it, you know? And so I feel like when people say things like that, like, oh, how could you be friends with

them? It's like, what do you think I should do? Should I just, leave this guy with a bad taste of what Christianity looks like. Yeah. You know, like, no, I'm not. And I'm still going to love my friends who are, who are, you know, I have friends who are prostitutes. I have friends who are drug addicts. I have friends who are, you know, going through really rough times or, you know,

people who are cheating on their spouses. This is not all of my friends, obviously. But I have, I have people that go through things and, like, you know, and I pray for them just as much. And I wish that, like, I think that's what I wish the most was like, if these people genuinely cared about me or my husband, And instead of like picking us apart or picking him apart, like I would hope that you would just pray for us instead, you know, because it's already like hard enough in real life to like, you know, live through through a lot of this stuff, you know, and like then to just publicly like harass or humiliate you, you know. Yeah.

Yeah. And also too, like, I don't know. I don't know. When I look at people, I just don't understand what you're going through, you know. Like I remember tattooing a man who like, I. accidentally killed his only son, you know, and he got a portrait of, you know, that was paying homage. And it's like, how are you still here, you know? And like, I remember that day I was like pulling out of my tattoo shop and I was leaving and I saw him, you know, bandaged up and he was crossing the street to go

back to his car. And I'm at the stoplight and he's just passing people. I'm like, the people that are passing him have no idea what this man's carrying right now. And it's like, I'm, I'm, I'm I mean, it's like, and we just treat each other so poorly all the time, you know? Just like, like, look what it's wearing. Look at, you know, it's like, man, you just don't know, you know? Yeah. Like, even the people that hate me, I'm like, oh, man, they got to be miserable in their own life. Like, I'm not going to just be like, let me go look at your profile because you're probably pretty easy to break down too, you know?

But I just think like, oh, man, like, you must not have a fun life. You just don't know. Yeah, you just don't know. So, yeah, I'm, I love Merrill Manson. I think he's a good guy and I think he's actually like, you know, making a lot of deep, meaningful changes that it's not my place to talk about that for him. But like if you knew you'd feel bad about criticizing, you know? Yeah. So I don't know.

Yeah. I think a lot of people are just very unfamiliar. Yeah. Like with the world. And I just, I listen to your story and I think about people that are in your circles, like the ones that you listed, who don't know Christ at all or are looking. Like we all did at one point for that happiness and satisfaction. Like everyone's just looking for that thing that lasts. Like will something just keep me stable forever?

Yeah. And it can't be found outside of Christ. It's so obvious to me like that the Lord is going to use you and your testimony for these friends that you have. That maybe the outside world does look at someone like Marilyn Manson or other people in your circle and think, wow, like, you know, they're my enemy or they hate me and what I stand for or they can't be redeemed. but you know personally that we're all just people. They're all just people all looking for the same things that we're all looking for. And I just think that you're in such a unique position that a lot of people are not to help show those people like where the love is that actually lasts and satisfies.

Or just to even see it as an option. Like because I didn't really have anybody other than Alice Cooper, to be honest. Like, and I remember like after after I posted that baptism video, and I was getting all this heat. I was like, I wonder how Alice like deals with this, you know? And I just Googled like Alice Cooper like Faith, like YouTube, whatever. Yeah. And I saw some of his interviews and I was like, man, that's so cool.

Like, you know, he was saying, and I'm not quoting because I'm going to butcher it, but he was saying about how like when he had first found Jesus that he was like, do I have to drop this Alice Cooper thing? You know, do I have to like not have a career anymore, not saying like, and he's like, But no, God sent me here as Alice Cooper to be able to like inspire people that would listen to somebody like him versus like somebody that, you know, doesn't. Like I don't feel like I relate to a lot of people in like the, in the Christian realm that, I mean, I do relate on matters of the Bible. And that's what makes me love all my Christian, you know, family that way. but but as far as like understanding where we come from and like what what like what our normal is like you know um it's

I don't know it's just not we don't have a lot of that we have our friends you know like the the people that came out to my baptism like they're they're on the same page and and you wouldn't think that that was like another thing that people criticize is like oh look at all these like witches inside of a church and it's like what are you talking about those people have been Christian longer than I have like yeah you know it's like just because they're wearing something. Yeah. Because a certain way. Yeah. The other thing about like criticizing people's faith on social media, which I think like debates are fine or disagreements or are fine if someone posts

something like some commentator post something that's theologically untrue, I might respond to that. But just like judging a book by its cover and saying, wow, this person is looks like this or is making this mistake, they must not be a Christian. I think people forget so quickly and so easily like their own sanctification journey. What you're seeing in someone's faith on social media is just a snapshot of where they are. But there was a time like when I was younger that I used to listen to the prosperity gospel and I was into that kind of stuff. I used to have a different stance on abortion. I was a lot more liberal on it. I just didn't know. And there were probably people maybe in my life then when I was listening to some of those teachers and having some of those

views in college who would have been like if I'd put that publicly, oh, you're not a real Christian. Yeah. No, I was, but I was still and am still as we all are being sanctified. So no one has perfect wisdom. And so someone sharing their testimony, I think it's really easy to criticize while forgetting like where we all were. Yeah. When we became Christians, not saying that's you, but like all of us are being sanctified and learning and gaining wisdom. Yeah. And are changing for the better. And so, yeah. I think, I think like the important. important change too is like, it's not outward. Because I see a lot of that, you know, I follow like Christian accounts and a lot of the content that I engage with is in that world.

So a lot of the, you know how Instagram the algorithm will show you stuff. So I get a lot of like flashes of people like, oh look, before Christ and it was like somebody dressed a certain way. And it's like after Christ and they're just like modest and stuff. And they're blonde. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, and to be honest, like I've actually been pretty modest like most of my life. I know I don't, but like if you look at like my history, like you won't find naked photos of me. Like I'm just not like generally that that's never been my vibe, you know?

But I think that the more meaningful changes like happen, at least for me, was, I mean, they're just groundbreaking changes that happen internally, you know? And that's what people were like, there's like one annoying comment that people put. And I know it's regarding a verse, something about like, show me the fruits or whatever. Like, we'll see, we'll see if she's really Christian once we should. A tree shall be known by its fruit. Yeah. Yeah. And that, I'm like, block delete.

But it's like, you know, if you would have known my heart and mind before and to where I am now, you would be like, your mind would be blown. Like I told Rafa, my husband, Rafa, my husband, Rafa, I felt one time I was like, do you know that like you you leading me back to where I am now is probably the reason that we're together now, you know? Like I feel like I'm the best wife and the best mother I can be now because of the changes that I've had. I mean, there's been, it's like a deprogramming that has taken place. Things that I used to find attractive are disgusting to me, you know?

And it's like, like, I wish I could put into words, like, how amazing those changes are that I've been able to experience through all this. And it's so cool, you know? Is there an example that you can think of of, like, something that she used to like that you find disgusting? I just think, like, the things that I even, like, would find just attractive in general, like, in people. Like, you know, I used to think it was, like, I don't know, like, I don't, I mean, there's a lot. there's a lot. I think like an easy one is like my life before. Like I would have just been like this career boss babe or whatever it is that they call them. It's like I have no interest in that anymore. I mean I love to be creative and I love to have ideas and make them come to life with my mind and my

hands. But my priorities have shifted like a great deal. You know? And I think like how I see my husband now is just I mean it's just it's just awesome you know so to end what message would you give someone who is watching this who maybe they are in the position to where they're like yeah you know I want to believe that God is real but there are things holding me back whether it's their past or whether it's who they are now or whether it's that they don't like what they see from Christians. It's just not attractive to them.

Like, what would you tell that person? Oh, man, I'm not good at these kinds of giving messages out. What would you have told yourself? I mean, you know, I think what's exciting to me is to look, like, I loved researching, like, the historical aspect of the Bible because then you just start seeing actual truths. And I think a lot of people, when they think of, like, oh it's like you know some guy with a beard in in the clouds and like like miracles didn't

really happen like this kind of but when you start looking at like there's so much evidence that is so undeniable i mean it's so cool that's the part where i was like okay this isn't this isn't just about blind faith oh i just believe because this is like what i was talking about with my childhood it's like i just believe because that's what my parents told me to do it's like no no there's actual like like evidence and information that's like so exciting and inspiring so you know like I said when you um gifted me the idea of getting that Bible like it really helped me out because I go to I have like a little women's Bible study class that I go to on Tuesdays at my church and stuff but we are a little bit of like not the blind leading the blind but we're all figuring it out

together you know and so it's like um you know I I don't know what the advice is you know I got really lucky with a pastor that has like a doctrine and theology and like like is very knowledgeable and I can ask certain questions and we can talk about it and he has like you know opened my my mind to certain things and I don't I don't know how to tell people how to find that you know I mean you're probably better at it than me I just I just know that it's within me and that's what I want to do yeah well I think you answered the question just by giving your testimony of talking about how God draws people and kind of what you did to seek that out and the questions that you ask I think it's just good for people to hear too that it's okay to have questions yeah and that you don't have to have it all figured

out and actually we are all figuring it out whether you've been a Christian for five minutes or 50 years there are going to be questions that are unanswered but there are also like I see a lot of people saying well I can't be a Christian because this question this question this question or whatever it is and I think a lot of people have some arrogance in believing that no one else has ever ever asked the questions or had the doubts that you do when really thankfully like we have thousands of years of very smart very knowledgeable very wise theologians who have wrestled with a lot of those questions so like chances are there are a lot of answers to the questions that we have not perfect in all of them but like you said like you asked people you saw people who knew what they were talking about you

read the Bible you got a study Bible I think that is a good answer yeah like seek the questions that you have. Don't just sit with them. Like, seek the truth about them because chances are there's a lot of wisdom out there for you. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Well, Kat, thank you so much for taking the time. We can talk a lot more. It's already been an hour and seven minutes. So it's a beautiful job sharing your testimony. Oh, thanks. I know it's going to encourage a lot of people. So thank you so much. Oh, no. Thank you. And sorry if I rambled a lot. I tend to do that. You didn't. It was beautiful. It was perfect. Thank you.