Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - REPLAY: Modest Isn't Hottest ... But Is It Biblical?

Episode Date: May 25, 2022

Today we're talking about modesty, what the Bible says about it, and the "controversy" surrounding Matthew West's "Modest Is Hottest" video. West caused quite a stir on social media with the now-deleted video and reignited the ongoing debate about modesty and purity culture. Although there are certainly some harmful aspects to purity culture as many of us experience it, the Bible gives clear examples of what God's expectations are regarding modesty. --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise- use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort.

We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us. Hello, hello. Welcome to Relatable. Happy Monday. Hope everyone had a wonderful weekend today, not as I'm recording this, but as you are listening to this, I'm actually in Nashville for the Candace Owen show. So make sure that you look out for that. Super exciting. But today, we are going to discuss a controversial topic that many of you have asked me to discuss. And I've honestly been kind of avoiding talking about it. It's not really because it's controversial. You guys know that I don't avoid controversial subjects,

but because I haven't really decided how to properly articulate what I think about it. But with so many requests on this and so many conversations about this topic, which is modesty circulating on social media, especially in what's considered ex-vangelicalism and progressive Christianity. I thought it might be time to bite the bullet and just go for it. So that's what we're going to do. We're going to discuss what modesty means, what the Bible says about it, what it looks like for Christian women and even men. There's no way, though, for me to cover every part of this topic. But we're going to do our best to hit the important points. And I want to kick this off.

This is part of why I thought it was a good idea to talk about this right now because there was some drama that went on online centering on the subject of modesty when Christian singer Matthew West released a song called Modest is Hottest on Father's Day where he talks about encouraging his two daughters to dress appropriately. I watched it on Instagram when it came out, knew immediately what the reaction was going to be I from some people. But I mean, I laughed. I got what he was doing. It was obviously tongue and cheek. He might have been aiming to convey a serious message that he wants to protect his daughters, but it was obviously lighthearted, a little satirical just trying to jokingly show that, you know,

he is a protective dad of his girls. Here's an example of some of the lyrics. I'm just going to read it to you. Modest is hottest. The latest fashion trend is a little more Amish, a little less Kardashian. What the boys really love is a turtleneck and a sensible pair of slacks. Honey, modest is hottest, sincerely, your dad. I mean, that's funny. That's cute. I mean, it's supposed to be a joke. Ten years ago, no one would have batted an eye at that kind of thing, because at one point, we all knew that most dads don't want their daughters leaving a house with most of their body exposed, but some people took issue with this song. And I'm going to read you some of those responses and a little bit of the backlash in just one second.

All right, let's look at a little bit of the backlash, some negative responses to this song by Matthew West that I think tells us a little bit about what popular culture and also those who consider themselves maybe on the more progressive side of Christianity have to say about this particular topic and the idea that was sung in the song. Singer Audrey Assad said on Twitter, Modest is Hot is still. centers men and their preferences in how women should look. Still sets being found hot by men as the ultimate goal for women and positions all men as creeps who can't handle seeing a woman's bear skin without turning into out of control monsters. Author Sheila Gregore quote tweeted the song and said

this, the age-old struggle is actually women feeling responsible for men's sins. I know many think this is cute and fun, but obsessing over girls' bodies without making reference to boys' responsibility is part of the problem. Let's raise girls and boys in a healthy way instead. So those are pretty balanced and I think reasonable responses from people that didn't agree with the message. Here is what one mom told today. So this was picked up by some secular outlets as well. Colorado mom Lisa Kruitsinger 30 told today parents that she grew up listening to Christian music and enjoyed it, but the narrative of the song is not something she would want her daughter, Audrey Bell, to hear. What a girl wears does not.

equal her worth. Kruitsinger said, Girls don't wear clothes because it's what the boys really love. If you're comfortable and modest clothing, rock it. And if you want to dance on TikTok in the clothes you love, don't let people like Matthew West tell you that's, quote, bad. There was also an Oklahoma worship pastor named Jeremy Coleman. He parodied some of the song on TikTok. So Matthew West's version says this in one of the lines,

if I get you doing dances on TikTok in a crop top, so help me God, you'll be grounded until the world stops. Coleman's version goes like this. Well, if I catch you doing dances on the TikTok, wear what you want, girl just go off. Hold your head up so your crown doesn't fall off. You're a queen if you forgot. Here's the Newsweek right up about that. It says Coleman, who has three daughters, told Newsweek his concern with West Song was the same concerned with purity culture as a whole.

We are telling our daughters and young women that their body image should be defined by someone else's opinion. Women should feel confident, comfortable, and free to dress and express themselves however they want. There were several other TikTok parodies that were similar to his, lots of mini influencers on Instagram and YouTube talking about how toxic this idea is, how damaging it is. There were a lot more less balanced and I would say a lot meaner responses from some people to even professing Christians towards this. So there was a good bit of negative media and social media attention for something that probably, like I said, a few years ago, no one would have really noticed. Now, Matthew West ended up taking it down, and he issued this statement. He said, I'm blessed to be the father of two amazing daughters. I wrote a song poking fun at myself for being an overprotective dad, and my family thought

it was funny. The song was created as satire, and I realized that some people did not receive it as it was intended. I've taken the feedback to heart. The last thing I want is to distract from the real reason why I make music, to spread a message of hope and love to the world, proud hashtag girl dad. So he doesn't exactly apologize, which people were upset about. And I want to try to offer a sympathetic as summary as I can of the position of people who were upset that he posted the video and then were upset that he didn't apologize

about the video. And I'm going to get to that in just one second. So here's what I believe the dissenters, the people who are pushing back against this and not just against this particular song, but really the whole Christian concept of modesty in general or the larger purity culture in general. We've talked about purity culture on this podcast. What the Bible actually says about purity and some of the negative parts about purity culture because people even within the church are fallible. And so they make mistakes that sometimes have unfortunately damaging consequences. I think that's true of so-called purity

culture. We'll talk a little bit about that. But to try to sympathetically and as generously as I can, describe what I think people's feelings are about this song and about this subject. I would say that the argument goes something like this. So by telling girls to be modest, they would say, we are making them feel that the responsibility to control men's lusts and predatory behaviors is theirs. Rather than telling men to behave purity culture, they say, makes women bear the burden of men's sinful and sexual thoughts. It therefore encourages a mentality. of shame and even self-objectification for women and girls who are being at least implicitly told

that their bodies are dangerous or to blame for men's behaviors, which then I think the logic goes leads to what some might call rape culture because women are taught that men can't control their sexual urges. And if they give in to those sexual urges in the form of predatory victimizing behavior, it's because of what the girl or woman did or said or war. So I think that that is how the thinking goes of the people who are pushing back on this kind of stuff. And I truly tried to be as accurate as possible in that. And I hear a lot of that. I really do. Like, I really understand it. I agree that ultimately, of course, men are responsible. We all are responsible for our thoughts and actions. Absolutely. No matter what a woman is wearing,

a man is responsible for what he does and how he reacts. I agree that there are problems with so-called purity culture. I've talked about a book that I read called Datable in high school, which I now realize, or I realize several years later, is so toxic and damaging and wrong that compared people, young people to used cars losing value, the more it was driven. Of course, comparing that to the sexual experience that you have when you're younger before you get married. Or maybe you've heard of the analogy that was, you know, kind of taught in some churches growing up of a rose that's been handled. by a bunch of people, then it looks all, you know, torn up and wilted. No one would want the rose

right. Like you've probably heard that kind of thing. They're terrible analogies. They're terrible. I'll never forget watching a Matt Chandler sermon in, I don't know, 2010, 2011. I'm not sure when it was from, but I remember watching it on YouTube when he talked about, when he was younger, listening to a pastor giving that rose analogy. And his response in this sermon was, Jesus wants the rose. And that's exactly right. Thank the Lord. Our value and our wantedness is not diminished by how many guys we made out with in high school or even by someone getting pregnant out of wedlock or someone being a prostitute. Jesus made a point to interact with women who had been sexually immoral in whom polite society and religious legalists had cast aside. God seeks and saves the lost. He reaches and heals the sick

and the hurting. And I could see how creating shame around the body and sex can lead a young person, especially a girl, to have a distorted view of herself and even maybe to blame herself for inappropriate male advances and to maybe not speak up about them because she's been told that that kind of behavior is caused by what she wears and that maybe she might have done something to make this man give in to his loss. So I can see all of that. But, But here's here's my disagreement or at least my pushback to the pushback. I cannot go so far as to say that a parent just shouldn't have anything to say about what their children. And yes, in particular, their daughters wear.

And to the Christians responding to this song saying, well, girls should just be able to wear whatever they want to wear. Do you really believe that? Like, you really think it's good parenting to allow your 13, 14, 15 year old daughter to wear whatever she wants dancing on TikTok? Like you're telling me that there's no standard whatsoever that you would ask your daughter to reach when it comes to wear clothing. So if she wants to go to the mall with her friends and she comes downstairs and clothes that basically amount to underwear, you as a parent wouldn't say something about that. And if you do have any rules at all for what your daughter wears, those of you who push back against, you know, something like Matthew West Song, my question would be, well, why do you have those rules?

And if you don't have any rules for what your daughter wears, you're telling me that you would be okay with absolutely anything that she wears in public or posting on social media. Because here's the truth. If that's you, like you really just don't care in whatever setting she wears absolutely whatever she wants your 13-year-old daughter. The truth is there are, like whether we want to admit this or not, whether you think it's patriarchal to say this, there are creepy.

predatory men on social media, watching your kids videos, whether you want to admit it or not. The vast majority of online sexual predators, harassers, assaulters, people who are rapist, groomers are men. And they seek out, unfortunately, underage girls on these social media platforms. That is a fact. So are you honestly telling me, those of you who are saying, well, girls should just be able to wear whatever they want without judgment. and it doesn't matter if your daughter wants to wear whatever she wants dancing on TikTok.

You're telling me as a dad or as a mom who has been given the responsibility by God to protect your children that you don't care if your underage scantily clad daughter is dancing on TikTok where you know there are probably gross men watching her. Now, it is not her fault that those men are creepy, that those men are predatory and that they are looking for videos of underage girls. That's not her fault, but those men do exist. I said, that's a fact. And even off of social media, are there no standards of decency and dress that you hold your kids to as far as covering parts of their body? I mean, of course there are.

Of course there are. You wouldn't let your kids walk outside. I mean, you know, walk somewhere in public, like the mall or somewhere in their underwear. Why not? Because it's inappropriate. So if you will admit that, can you also admit that having rules for what your children and teens wear, with an aim toward protection and decency is okay. I'm just saying anyone who says that parents shouldn't tell their daughters or just your kids in general what to wear or not to wear at all, you're either terribly irresponsible as a parent, which I don't think that you are. I don't think that's true of many of the people complaining about this particular song.

But the other option is that you're being disingenuous because most parents are going to have some kind of regulations around what their kids can wear in public and. on social media. The question is, what should those regulations be? Not just for our kids, but also for ourselves. And more importantly, why? Because for the Christian, it's about more than just rules. It's about more than creepy guys on social media. For the Christian, we have to seek what God says about how we dress. And I'm going to get into the theological aspect of modesty in just one second. So like I said, for us, it's the why that matters the most. That is the thing that we must understand before we talk about, you know, how long your skirt should be or how high your neckline

should be. We have to know why there is even a conversation about modesty. Should there be a conversation about modesty and what we wear or what we don't wear? I think there should be because the same God who pours out grace and forgiveness on us, no matter what we've done, the same God who wants the rose, who sees his children as righteous and holy and good, not because of what we've done or who we are, but because of who he is and what he's done through Jesus on the cross does have something to say about how we present ourselves and how we dress. This God, who as 1 John 4.8 tells us is love, who loves us so much as John 316 says, that he sent his son to die for us so that we could be reconciled to him and spend forever with him

also says that how we dress and what we do with our bodies matter. I grew up going to a Southern Baptist church, went to church camp where we were always told the importance of waiting to have sex until we get married, not putting ourselves in situations with the opposite sex where things could go too far, dressing in a way that doesn't cause guys to love, And so I'm familiar with all of this. And I will just say for me personally, though I can't see how some of these things and how they were taught could have negatively affected people, it didn't lead me to be embarrassed about my body or into the mentality that sexual assault could be somehow my

fault or afraid of having sex one day. There's a lot of people who say that being told sex is bad until marriage makes sex difficult once you get married and that's probably true for those people, but it really wasn't difficult to flip that switch. It was just, okay, sex before marriage shouldn't do it. Sex after marriage should do it. Cool. A lot of the shame that I know some people feel from what they say as a result of purity culture just wasn't the case for me or for any of my friends that I know who grew up in the same world. And I'm not invalidating what other people felt or experienced. I'm just saying for a lot of people, it was okay.

Like it wasn't perfect, but it was okay. And then for a lot of people also, like the whole true love weights campaign actually was super helpful for them and changed their mentality about sex and dating and their bodies for the better. But here is my big beef with most of what we learned about abstaining from sex and what leads up to it, growing up, even though I didn't experience any. trauma from it. My problem is, I don't remember very often hearing why what we wear and how we conduct ourselves sexually matters. I don't remember hearing it tied to the gospel and to God's

grace, but I rather heard it tied to guilt tactics like, you know, you're really not going to want to tell your future husband what you did with this guy you're dating now in high school. Because after you tell him, he might not want to be with you anymore if y'all are engaged or dating. like you're going to be or or something like you're going to be struggling with shame about this for the rest of your life and it's going to make your marriage really hard or for a guy you're going to be thinking about every girl that you ever done stuff with when you're having sex with your wife and then girls hear the same thing about their future husbands and it's just like this whole idea of purity is tied to what your future spouse is going to think and when you're a teenager there's no there's no guarantee that you're even going to get married so what's the motivation for people who aren't going to get married if it's It's just tied to the shame that your future spouse might make you feel. And while I think it's good to know what your spouse has done, it's actually before you get married, especially after they became Christians, how I was told that those hypothetical conversations about the past with my future husband

would go down with tears and sadness and shame and not knowing if we can handle the thought of us having had, you know, been involved with past significant others, it's just not how it happened. Like it doesn't mean it's fun to think about, but we loved and loved each other. So there was understanding, there was grace, there was gratitude that through all of that, that we're together,

there was just happiness that we have each other. And I just don't think that the veiled threat that your future spouse may not want you anymore if you go too far with someone now is a good way to inspire abstinence before marriage. It's just not. That's not a healthy mentality. And I think making modesty primarily about what other people may think is also ineffective. Because these things are not what drive our conduct as Christians. What we do, we do not do from fear but from love. 1 John 419 says, we love because he first loved us. And John 1415 says, if you love me, you will keep my commandments.

So because we love the God that loved us so much that he sent his son to die for us, we seek to do what he says. We seek to follow his commands because we are no longer who we were before we met Christ. We are no longer our own. We are not our own authorities. We don't just do what we want or even wear whatever we want anymore. There are three passages on that that I want to read. Ephesians 2, 1 through 5. And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked following the course of

this world following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience, among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind. And we're by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind, but God being rich in mercy because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 422 through 23, put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds and to put on the new self created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

And then 2 Corinthians 618 through 20, flee from sexual immorality. flee from it. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person commits sins against his own body? Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. So, hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Allie, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe is true about God, humanity, and reality itself.

On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort. We ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this Steve Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts.

I hope you'll join us. If you are a Christian, a follower of Christ, you have accepted by faith that God sent his son as a payment for your sin and you are by faith committing to live in accordance with what God says is good and right and true, then you are no longer your own. Your old self is gone. The God of self that you used to worship is dead. So all of the self-empowerment talk about you doing what you want to do when you want to do it is totally irrelevant in the conversation about what life in Christ looks like.

We're supposed to die to ourselves. Because we are now his, he purchased us with his blood, and he, and he alone has every right to tell us what to do and what not to do, how to dress and not to dress. And he does so, not because he enjoys nitpicking, but because he loves us and is dedicated to our holiness, we obey him. He wants us to be set apart. 1 Timothy 2 8 through 10 says this. I desire then that in every place the men should pray lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling. Likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness with good works. So just for some context, This is a letter from the Apostle Paul to his son in the faith, Timothy, giving pastoral instruction. He gives some theological reminders, but is mostly giving practical advice about orderly worship, proper behavior for the Christians in the church and things like that.

So this verse in chapter 2 is talking about in the context of the church pointing to the importance of not distracting from worship, either by causing other women to envy, flashy clothing or encouraging men to look at them. But because the word for modesty here in the original Greek, which is Ahedos, means humility and reverence and really the opposite of self-focused or the desire for other people to look at you. And because Christians are always called to humility, we understand that the call to modesty also extends beyond the walls of the church. Colossians 312 says, put on then as God's chosen once, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness and patience. So what this tells us is that while there are external signifiers of modesty, first and foremost, it starts in the heart. It starts with a heart that is totally in submission to God, so focused on all the, so focused on the, on all the, the, the, attention and glory going to God, that she will do nothing to distract from that.

Now, we don't read here that women have to wear a potato sack or can't wear makeup or brush their hair or look pretty. We simply read that she dresses herself to point to God and not to point to herself and to herself. And because modesty is first about what comes from within, there may not be hard and fast rules about what women should and shouldn't wear. And I say women because this passage addresses women, not men, about modesty and how we dress. Now, that does not mean that men aren't also called to modesty because,

like we've said, Christian men and women are called to humility at all times. And that means men are also not to dress in a way that intentionally draws eyes to themselves. But either for men or women, it is, of course, subjective. I haven't always gotten this right. That is for sure. I haven't always been as modest as I could be in how I dress. The older you get, I think, like the more mature you are, the less tempted you are to kind of tow the line when it comes to clothing, the more conservative probably your standards become. The appropriateness of dress may depend on the setting. It may depend on the body type. It may depend on who's around you. But it's a little like the legal definition of obscenity. Like you know it when you see it. You know modesty when you see it.

There's too short, too tight, too low, too skimpy, showing too much of or getting too close to showing anything that would qualify as indecent exposure if revealed. Those are all possible ways. Something can be immodest, but again, not primarily, not primarily because of the clothing itself, but because of what it does and what it says about our hearts. That's what the Bible says. And it's about to whom we are trying to give attention. And you might say, well, I wear this for me. It's not for other people to look at me. Well, again, I would just say, even if that is true, if you are a Christian, you were still bought with a price. And even if you wear that for you, the question is never, well, what can I get away with? But rather as Christians,

the question is always, how can I most glorify God with what I wear? That may mean setting some rules for yourself. And yes, for the kids to whom God has given you to steward. That is normal and good and responsible and right. That is not teaching kids to be ashamed of themselves or that all men are predators who may be provoked to rape because a girl's skirt is too short. That's not what teaching modesty means to kids. It is saying, look, we are called to glorify God in all that we do.

He tells us to dress modestly and humbly. And in this house, here's what we think that looks like. And as you get older, we'll trust you more and more to make those decisions on your own. I'm just kind of paraphrasing because I know those of you who have walked through the teenage years with your kids would know better than I do, but that's just what I'm imagining based on scripture the conversation might go like that, hey, we will trust you more and more the older you get based on what we've taught you, but we are still here to guide you, to protect you, to set some parameters as long as you are under our care because we love you. And we love the God who made you and the God who made you loves you. And this is what he says in his word. And look, the reality that a lot of progressives don't want to face today is that men and women are different. Like, we think differently. We think about sex and the opposite sex differently. Men are much more visual than women are. They turn to thoughts about sex much more quickly because of a visual than women do.

That does not mean women are responsible for men's thoughts. Again, it's just acknowledging reality. And if we know that lust is a sin, as Jesus tells us that it is, and if we love the men, who are our brothers in Christ, then we should want to do everything we can to help them out. Matthew 527 through 29, Jesus says this. You have heard that it was said, you shall not commit adultery. But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out, and throw it away.

For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole, body be thrown into hell. So here, Jesus clearly does not blame a man's lust or does not lay the blame for a man's lust at the feet of the woman after whom he is lusting. So we shouldn't do that either. But we also take from this passage that lust is a huge deal. It's an important sin. It's a bad sin as all sin is, but it's a sin that Jesus took time to point out. Jesus is saying, that you should take very drastic measures to stop yourself from doing this. So if we as women know that and we know how the male mind works and don't let anyone tell you, it doesn't work that way.

By the way, you'll also notice that Jesus is addressing men in that passage. Isn't it the loving thing to do to within reason dress in a way that is not intentionally distracting? Again, you can't control what someone thinks or does, and I'm not saying that you can. I'm also not saying that you should be ashamed of your body because your body was made by God and is good. I'm not saying that a man that is your husband thinking about you sexually is wrong because God calls that sexual relationship good too. I'm talking about loving the body of Christ by doing what we can to spur them on towards

holiness by conducting ourselves with modesty and humility. Mark 7, 20 through 23, says, Jesus says this, and he said, what comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart, or from within out of the heart of man come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and they defile a person. Jesus said that. I sometimes wonder, like, when people try to paint Jesus as the person who doesn't care about sin, I'm like, what Bible are you reading? These sins are big deals. And they obviously have bad consequences. So love would say that we do what we can to resist these sins ourselves and to help those around us to do the same as much as is within our power. So here's my conclusion. Critics of purity culture

have some good points absolutely. But there is no reason, certainly no biblical reason, to throw the baby out with the bathwater and say that what we wear doesn't matter to God because it does. It does matter to him. And God loves us very much. And I have to trust he absolutely knows what's best for us

and that we will never go wrong if our desire and all that we do is to honor him. And I pray that he gives me the grace to do that better and better and to teach our kids to do the same thing. And I pray that for you guys as well. Tough topic. I hope that I covered it in a way that makes sense and is helpful for you guys. I will see you guys back here tomorrow. Hey, this is Steve Day. If you're listening to Alley, you already understand that the biggest issues facing our country aren't just political. They're moral, spiritual, and rooted in what we believe

is true about God, humanity, and reality itself. On the Steve Day show, we take the news of the day and tested against first principles, faith, truth, and objective reality. We don't don't just chase narratives and we don't offer false comfort, we ask the hard questions and follow the answers wherever they leave, even when it's unpopular. This is a show for people who want honesty over hype and clarity over chaos. If you're looking for commentary grounded in conviction and unwilling to lie to you about where we are or where we're headed, you can watch this D-Day show right here on Blaze TV or listen wherever you get podcasts. I hope you'll join us.