Reptile Fight Club - 4 life or Rehome with Billy Sveen

Episode Date: August 4, 2023

Justin and Chuck tackle the most controversial topics in herpetoculture. The co-hosts or guests take one side of the issue and try to hold their own in a no-holds-barred contest of intellect. Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the topic of keeping reptiles for life vs. rehoming them with Billy Sveen.Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

all right welcome to hotel fight club we're back again for another episode, and this time we've got a friend. An old friend that we've had on here before, Dr. Billy Sven. How you doing, man? Pretty good. Happy to be back. Good to have you back. Yeah. Oh, Chuck disappeared. Oh, no. Well, I guess nothing like that to start out a show and have your co-host disappear.

But what's going on with you? I'm doing well, yeah. Enjoying the summer. Nice. Yeah, it's been a pretty good summer for me as well. It's been really rainy and mild for summers in Utah. So can't complain about that. Got some good herping going on and can't, can't beat that either. So you keeping busy? Uh, yeah. Work's been busy and then young kid during the summer is busy too. They can't entertain

themselves very well so um less work in that regard so spending more time at home with them but it's good how old are the uh five and seven okay yeah gotta keep them entertained huh yeah yeah that's a that's a fun time though for sure yeah it is yeah mine mine are all teenagers and above so i get a lot of feedback feedback that's a good word oh yeah last night was a doozy but oh no it's been fun nice my my youngest she was just you know just this little angel and all of a sudden she's become a full-blown teenager so yeah getting through uh the fun with that so that she's she's i mean she's still a sweetheart but you know the teenager brain damage sets in yeah what do you do i like i like how how much i forgot

how much of an expert i was when i was a teenager yeah on everything like i said it was certainty it was all true i knew it to. I was right as right could be. Yeah, not really. So that Dunning-Kruger syndrome is strong with teens, right? Yes. Yes. You don't know how smart you are until you find out you're not very smart. Yeah.

All right. Well, things good for you, Chuck? Yeah. Besides your injuries? Yeah. I'm good besides my injuries. I'm hobbling around. Yeah. That martial arts, that'll get you. Yeah. Well, yeah. My fault. My bad. Took the two youngest girls out uh herping the other night and nice we found a found a couple gopher snakes they're you know crossing the road so that was

fun and then um came across a mother raccoon and her two cubs and so she took off like i don't know where she went or where she was but she left the babies and bailed and so we sat and uh videoed and checked them out for a bit yeah they're pretty that's pretty cool yeah it's a little baby raccoon so maybe she'd uh mama bear up on you and come after you or something i was watching my back because i didn't want her to sneak up and like yeah rabies attack or something i was charged by a raccoon as a teenager and i'm not gonna to lie, I punted that fucking thing. Dude, it was full on, Mike. Those are scary

if they... Dude, I was freaked out. I just like, fight or flight, you know, just boom, kicked the thing when it got close enough. But yeah, it was tearing ass coming at me. I was scared. If they're that bold, it's probably rabies or something.

Yeah, man. You don't want to mess with rabies. Dude. Any virus that has 100% mortality rate if untreated is not a good virus to get. Yeah, and probably not fun to get treated once you've contracted it. Once you have been exposed. I think it's gotten a little better. Maybe you would know better, Billy.

I'm no rabies expert, but there's some interesting stuff about, if I'm remembering correctly, hypothermia and treating rabies in some people that have survived in Wisconsin people, I'm going to butcher some of this, but in South America that have antibodies that suggest that they've been infected with potentially a slightly different strain. But the idea that somehow some populations do survive. But yes, it is horrible disease. Yeah. do survive. But yes, it is horrible disease. Get your animals vaccinated and stay away from any animals that would be potentially infected. And if you get bit by a bat, by a raccoon in particular,

get your injections. It's not worth messing around with. For sure. Well said. That's a scary one. Crazy trash pandas. I walked out to the reptile room and i got a nice surprise of another litter of blue tongue skinks so nice first time female i wasn't sure if she was a female or not i thought maybe it was a male but yeah it's nice to be surprised by that i almost sold her uh last uh reptile show so i guess i'm glad i held on to her and i got the babies look

nice they're you know it's got some nice color on them right out of the out of the female so that's been good the uh osmers uh skinks the osmers piney tail skinks are doing well the little babies i did did lose one um it was kind of weaker when it came out. And so, um, didn't, uh, didn't quite thrive from the beginning, but, um, the other two are going strong and looking good. Um, one lost its tail tip though. So that was, I don't know if I told that on here, but I didn't, I didn't think that the Hosmer skinks could lose their tails tails and so i was showing people the skinks right and so i reached down and grab grab one of them and i kind of used its tail a little bit to to pull it out and show it and whatever and then all of a sudden the tail just came right off in

my hands i'm like what the heck i didn't think this could happen and so i'm like oh man so i grabbed the other one and he you know i'm pulling the mail up and and he starts flipping his tail and it just comes off like he he basically just flicked his tail at me and so both my skinks are there with stumpy i'm like i felt like the biggest idiot like i'm just a moron here you know i just i did i just didn't think the you know the spiny tail the gurney has lost their tails and i i don't think the you know like the depressa and things it takes a lot to to get them to lose their tails like pretty much biting it off or something for a predator but um yeah i found out the the sad way that the uh hostamers can lose their tails and that they readily do lose their tails if they're stressed out by a bunch

of people in the reptile room. Lesson learned. PSA for y'all. So don't show off your shy egernia to visitors unless, you know, they're not going to lose their tails. But, yeah, those babies are sure cute, though. Little spots on them and stuff. They're awesome. So pretty stoked to add another species to the list of having bred in captivity. So they're pretty cool.

And my California kingsnake eggs are going strong. Nice. So that's kind of a fun little thing. I'm excited to see them hatch out. I guess I can't really count that one because she came in and grabbed it. Right. So that's a little cheating there. But, yeah, it'll be fun

to see it still counts it's just cheating counts you know it's like for sure yeah so yeah it's been been cool um you see dustin uh gron found a massasauga in no i didn't southeastern arizona so added i think that was the last uh species for him or something now he's seen all the snake species in arizona or something like that what's he gonna do move i guess you know that's his only choice start again he's gotta start again yeah he's reset his list go find it all over again yeah i'm not sure if that was just for croats or was if that was for everything but and i'm not sure if he's counting those loots that he found in utah because you know that was in arizona so that's fair that doesn't count that's below the belt yeah yeah that's or above the belt i don't know how you're gonna call that i guess yeah i would be above the

belt because it's you know what it's north of the belt. You get the drift, you know? Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah, what else is happening? Gearing up for the Tinley Show. I'm excited about that. If you haven't gotten your tickets for the Gecko Symposium on thursday do so go come see us talk about geckos it should be a fun little deal so i'm excited is that is that like a separate is that uh can you buy those like on the website or how does it's a separate

website yeah like it's separate probably should know the the right name for that. I'm sorry if I just totally set you up because you don't know yet. No, I mean, it is kind of loosely associated. I mean, it's at the same place as the Tinley Show. Yeah. But it's on Thursday, so the day before the vendors set up and all that kind of stuff. So, you know, I know a few people are coming, kind of making a weekend of it, staying, you know, going Thursday for the talks. And it's pretty much all day for the talks on Thursday.

Yeah, let me get some more I'm definitely planning to go. Are you? Yeah. We're going to drive down from Minneapolis. Nice. It'll be good to meet you in person then. Yeah, this is the time where I'm like, ah, should've gone.

Should've gone. you know what I mean yeah it's not good it's not good timing for me but I still feel that when everybody starts making the plans oh man I'm going to miss out

that sucks I know what you're saying it's just the gecko sympmposium at NARBC, so I guess it is associated. So, Tinley Park. So Thursday, October 5th, 2023, 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. So, full day of Gecko Madness. Gecko! Gecko Madness!

I like it. There's a registration fee, but you can get a shirt if you register before September 1st. Get that free Gecko shirt. Yeah, there should be some good talkers there. I don't know if I can include myself in that, but there's a lot of

good stuff. You're a good talker. I really like... We had one a few years back, and that was some really cool talks. I don't know. I had some favorites in there, but I don't know them. I thought Frank Colachico gave a really inspiring talk about going out and herping and stuff. So that was kind of cool.

Would you say that was an earlier on inspiration for you to get out and hurt more? Well, I'd already been out. I mean, I'm saying, but, you know, like. Maybe more in the United States. I think that kind of happened after that a little bit. But I'd already been kind of excited about going places. Yeah, yeah. I don't mean like in general.

I'm just saying like. I bought into the whole mindset of like save your money from buying something you know some animal a new animal and go out and use that money to go herping yeah okay that was kind of one of his big lines was like don't go buy that leachianus use that money and go to a go see where they're from i super agree with that yeah it's kind of a cool cool uh and then he had a ton of pictures and showed all these adventures that he'd been on multiple continents and countries and that's the way to sell that oh yeah it was pretty cool so yep um but yeah should be some some stuff there's there's pretty uh some some heavyters there, especially in the gecko world. You got Joe

Hopp and Frank Payne, our old buddy Frank. Yeah. And Steve Sykes. I mean, Philippe, the godfather of herpticulture, is going to be one of the headliners, I'm sure. So that'll be awesome. Yeah, so go check it out. If you don't have your tickets, get some

today. Okay. Okay. Okay. And then I'll also be speaking in Australia. Hawkesbury Herp Society meeting the week after Tinley. So that's going to be a busy month of travel going from Tinley back home and then out to Australia. Does that mean that we're going to go on another podcast hiatus, an episode hiatus? I don't know.

I might convince the guys to record with me in the car or something. Okay. I'm going to go herp with old Pete Birch. I'm hoping some of the other guys can make it, too. So we'll see who can. Peter will be amiable to podcast. Yeah, I think he's in for sure. I'm hoping some of the other guys can make it too. So we'll, we'll see who can, Peter will be amiable to. Yeah,

I think he's in for sure. I think Chris Cupper's in as well. So that'll be fine. Cool. We're meeting up with Steve Crawford, Steve Crawford, Steve. I'm sorry.

What is it? Steve? Oh my gosh. My brain is, I don't know how it works, but maybe a doctor's friend can help me with that. I am in trouble here. Yeah, it is Steve Crawford. I just second-guessed myself. Anyway, we can go meet up with him in South Australia and go find some more geckos and hopefully a carpet python.

That would be nice to see one out there in the wild but yeah it was um oh man who is it uh it's uh is it south coast uh snake catchers the asking me i know what eric and yeah yeah he does like the rescue man he pulled a really cool coastal uh out on video and it was just like oh look it's a brisbane it's a brisbane coastal right there there it is that's the brisbane coastal so it was funny yeah there's nice variability out of that yeah definitely no because most of the coastals that he pulls out are you know in the pretty blah blah you know they're not they're not uh they didn't you know that's the first one that i've seen that really had that nice kind of you know yeah carmelish you know brisbane look to it for sure yeah i wouldn't mind keeping some brisbane uh coastals down the road

only had experience with the northern northern variety of coastal or jungle or whatever you want to call them. Yeah. Whatever now. I mean, is it even a thing? Like do people even care anymore once you drop a bomb? I don't know if anybody cares at all about it. I see a lot of people not even going along with it. Well, yeah, because it throws enough of a wrench in their lineage charts and all this shit that they built that's like, hey, it's cool and this is what I'm talking about.

It's a nice guide, but maybe it doesn't mean as much shit as you think it does. Right. Like it gives you a good roadmap of like where, how you got there, but it doesn't maybe taxonomically mean anything. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's true. It's, uh, it's, I mean, I don't know. I was listening to the Schmitty on his podcast and he said, taxonomy is fake. So I don't know.

I mean, you know, look, I don't think it's fake. I think you need a system to classify things. It's just a system. It's just a system. But like any system, it's not perfect. It's like it was created by the federal government. It doesn't really work. It's not perfect, but it's kind of what we got.

And it's been around long enough that we're not getting rid of it. The edges are murky. Yes, very much so. Yeah, and that's probably a good way to say it, right? You know, I would say the stuff that's probably not in the edges is pretty well sorted out. But yeah. And I think it depends on what, what system you, uh, subscribe to, you know, what, uh, taxon, how you define a species or how you, you know, the, the static or, or not static, but, uh, variable nature of things and how things are in flux and yeah what what right now is is one thing

may change and turn into something else i don't it's hard to hard to pin it down i think for sure but and you know we're just kind of looking at snapshots and yeah what what things well and i think that's why you know if you're a taxonomist you probably need to be an expert in if you're a bird taxonomist you need to be an expert in, if you're a bird taxonomist, you need to be an expert in birds because you have to have that context because you don't necessarily evaluate everything the same way. You know what I mean? It's kind of like, well, in this case, we look at this, this, and this because of these things. And in this case, we look at this, this, and this because of those things right and so i mean

and i get it you know some groups evolve quicker than others and yeah so you know you need so for all of us so for me and you looking in it's like what the fuck are these guys are just making this shit like like they're just pulling this stuff out of like okay i see maybe how they get there but like it's all over the place. Well, yeah, sure, because we're not experts. The consistency thing, though, that's what bugs me. And I agree. And, you know.

Between different groups, it's just a different, almost a different mechanism of classifications. I don't know, man. I'm just saying that as a federal government employee, taxonomy gives me the same kind of vibe. I think we need a word from our sponsor to get us out of this. Mutton lifting power gloves. If you ain't got your mutton lifting power gloves, you're not shit. All right. Thank you. Brought to you by Nick Mutton Power Lifting Gloves. Mutton's Choice. Mutton's Choice Power Lifting Gloves. Come on, Nick. We got to get it right. We don't want to anger by Nick Mutton Powerlifting Clips. Mutton's Choice. Mutton's Choice Powerlifting Clips.

Come on, Nick. We've got to get it right. We don't want to anger Mr. Mutton. Yeah. We appreciate his sponsorship, though. It really helps out. You really threw the sponsorship thing in there real quick, so I just had to go. My bad.

It works. It works. All right. Well, what's going on with you, Billy? What you got cooking lately? I got my first clutch of poison dart frog eggs ever. Nice. Just earlier this week.

So that was exciting. Dendropedes leucomelus. So a nice, real, good uh poison dart frog cool yeah and they're got they're not five eggs and uh one was like one was a dud and the other four are clearly developing tadpoles so pretty cool i've only had experience with the uh um tinctorious Yeah, very similar to that. Okay. It was just a long, like it just takes forever to hatch and morph into a froglet and stuff. Yeah. From what I'm reading and hearing from people I talk to, it's like about a couple weeks to hatch and then a few months to morph.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Just seemed like it took forever. I'm kind of an impatient guy. Yeah, that congratulations thanks yeah no i'm excited about it i love being able to especially at this stage like every day they look different yeah and so it's pretty cool to see so they're all they're moving forward and yeah i like it stuff cool yeah that's fun um yeah What are your plans? Are you looking to look for holdbacks? Are you these and sell them and so i trust him as a reliable person um that will find good homes for them and it will take at least at this point because the only thing that i'm breeding

um make it so i don't have to try to find good homes for a really common frog if i couldn't find them i would just get rid of the eggs or as what happens is the females just tend to eat them like the other females eat them yeah um so they're i mean they're a pretty common frog so if i don't have a good homes for them they don't need to be bred yeah from my standpoint but it sure is fun at least so far right yeah that's it's such a such a balance like a high wire act to you know do i do I read them? Do I just keep them? Do it, you know, that's a, it is sure fun to see baby reptiles or amphibians, you know? So I, yeah, I have a hard time. Yeah. I would have a hard time if I couldn't breed them, you know? Yeah. Yeah. But at the same time, it's like, once you do breed them, then you're like, okay, now I got to find good homes for all of this. And it becomes another sort of headache so i end up

holding on to stuff way too long anyway so i get to get to hang out with it for a while but yeah i'm horrible at doing ads and trying to move stuff out so it's like i either need to chill out breathing or or uh i don't know you know yeah yep that's uh that's the razor's edge we walk, I guess. For sure, for sure. You know, it's nice to do a few shows every year, and I can kind of meet and talk with people face-to-face and kind of get to know them and make sure it's a good fit for them and things like that.

It helps alleviate a little bit of those concerns you have, you know, selling animals. But, yeah, it's fun. Yeah, those baby skinks today were very cute. I got a nice hatch right out of my inlands as well, so that was good. Nice. Had those all hatched out and looking good. So waiting for their first shed. One female?

One female this year? Yeah, just one female this year, just one female this year just one clutch so that's the way it goes i guess yeah i mean i think i only brought a bad problem males and yeah yeah so i just one's fine that's probably exactly how you want something like that to go right like breed them both and hopefully one of them goes but not both yeah i mean yeah the pygmies look good so nice sorry i i went back to my stuff so sorry about that bill so no problem dart frog eggs and the rest of the collection doing well dart frog eggs yeah i got a couple more of those cameroon dwarf geckos um so hopefully we'll have a pair or something somewhere

in there and um but still probably a year or two away from something happening as far as actual eggs um and then making plans to get my second species of dart frogs getting the phylobetes terribilis orange blackfoot actually making plans to get my second species of dart frogs, getting the Phyllobates terribilis, orange blackfoot. Actually making plans to get them in the Chicago area when I'm down at Tinley is the hope. Cool. What do those look like? Really, like, bright orange. Really bold orange.

And then they have black feet and kind of like a black like mask and jowls okay but it's very orange like striking orange right yeah and they're big they're i mean they're like yeah aren't they one of the larger species yeah so they're like a big tinctorius size yeah and then they're stockier though yeah a little more round a little more frog like and they've got reputation for being the boldest of dart frogs and depending on how

you measure toxicity they are one of the most toxic poison dart frogs and so that's you know whether it's the real story or just like a correlation that they're so toxic that like nothing scares them is kind of the way they get described in herpetoculture. And so, but like people just, it looks like open the door of the enclosure and stick their camera in there and they don't jump around. So it'd be cool if that ends up being the case.

Yeah. camera in there and they don't jump around so it'll be cool if that ends up being the case yeah they have some of those at our local uh aquarium and and you know the big multi-species tank you know that's like 12 feet long and you know four feet deep and you just sit and see how many you can find you know i love the dart frogs they're they're really fun to sit and watch you know i kind of miss having them in my office. It's been a few years since I had those. But yeah, they're the teak dogs. Dark frogs are fun. They're super fun.

That's cool. Well, yeah, hopefully you can get some nice ones. Yes. I guess they don't know they're not toxic in captivity either exactly good they keep that bold nature yeah they're kind of like perfect

the whole dendrobated complex like perfect display pets for that reason hopping around in the bright green background with their bright jewel colors. Yeah. Can't really go wrong. Yep.

Definitely not. How do you have them set up? Was it Loco? Yeah. Is that a Loco MLS? I mean, the other people won't be able to see, but it's just right here. Okay. Yeah.

I mean, it's just, it's like a two foot wide, 18-inch deep, 2-feet tall, Euro style sliding glass doors. I made it myself. Troy Goldberg is kind of a DIY dart frog guru on YouTube. Gotcha. I modified it slightly so it could fit perfectly in the corner of my desk, but I followed his instructions pretty closely. Nice.

Yeah. I love those YouTube videos that kind of just walk you through it. Yeah, it's wonderful. It really changed everything. Yeah. And then you can fill in the gaps by going on forums

and finding very specific little things. Compared to, like, I'll go on Dendroboard and see a build detailed from a decade ago, and the amount of time and details it takes you to read their steps, and then I still have questions. Versus you watch someone do it, and even if they don't say something specifically, you're like, oh, yeah, it's overlapping on the outside, not the inside of the wood or of the glass. You know, it's like that's why that number is slightly different. You know, it all makes more sense when you see it.

Yeah, I agree. That's cool. It's fun, too, to kind of have a hand in creating that environment for them and kind of seeing the finished product and enjoying it. Yeah. Really customizable then. And then it feels empowering because truly with glass, especially if you have a glass cutter, cut the glass for you. Yeah. You don't really need tools. It's just silicone and it's quite easy to do. And then, but then gave me the idea to build the, um, P PVC enclosure for my ball python. And then I needed to borrow some tools for that and have my father-in-law help me quite a bit. But it was doable, and it was a fraction of the cost of buying it.

And I could make it exactly the way I want it. That's cool. Yeah. Glass has kind of gone up in price a bit. Everything has. Everything, yeah. That's an everything problem. I was looking at sliding doors for some cages, and I found some shelves from Ikea that were the right size, and so I'm getting those to work. But, yeah, the glass, just buying cut glass was ridiculous. It was crazy. Yeah. That's cool stuff. the glass just buying cut glass was ridiculous. It was crazy. So, you know,

ah, that's, that's cool stuff. All right. Well, um, we ready to do some fighting? Yeah. What are we fighting about? Um, we're going to talk about, uh, kind of our responsibility as keepers, you know, for the longterm care of our, our snakes or you know if it's it's cool to move them on after we've kind of uh they've lost our interest or they've run their course or whatever however you want to say it or whatever reason you have to to move an animal on you know as an adult or as a something you've had for a long time so what's our responsibility i guess in that regard is that kind of sum it up? Do you have anything to add to that, Billy?

No, that sounds good. When you get an animal, are you making a life commitment to the animal versus go ahead and rehome it as you wish? Yeah, yeah. Sounds good. Well, I guess, Chuck, we're going to go ahead and do the first toss and see who gets to fight. It is heads. Are you going to fight or are're going to go ahead and do the first toss and see who gets to fight. It is heads.

Are you going to fight or are you going to? I will let you fight this one. I have very strong feelings on this. I already know which side I would take. And, I mean, this goes to my dogs, to my reptiles. You know, I've. And to me as a person, I'm a, loyalty is a huge thing for me as a person. So I, I need to shut the hell up and let you guys talk about it. All right. It's heads. I'm sorry.

Let's see. I might go on the check side and be like a long-termer. I know you probably feel the same way, so I'm going to have you battle the other side. Sounds good. I'm prepared to wait. I figured you would be. I'll let you go ahead and lead us out. Excellent. Yeah. So I'm going to argue that we're not obligated to keep these animals for their entire lifespan.

So I think the first thing is reptiles live a really long time. So even with the best of intention, if you're getting frogs that live two decades or snakes that live three, four decades or turtles that live eight to 10 decades, right? Um, you're opening yourself up for a lot of things changing, right? Like you're potentially going through being single to having a family, to jobs to moving across the country to retiring to getting sick there's all kinds of things that change over the course of multiple decades and so you could have a very reasonable um group of animals that you're taking care of that you at some point something's going to change and you feel like you have to move them on.

And so you need to think about how to do that responsibly. Um, and, um, if, as long as you have the ability to rehome them and find good homes for them, I, I think that sounds like an okay thing to do.

That would be an opening argument. Yeah,. Yeah, I can see that. Things change. I guess the converse of that is also true, that if you're planning on getting a certain reptile species, you should first off know how long it's going to live and you should try to plan and schedule, you know, or make sure that you can keep that animal for the entirety of its lifetime. And so, you know, that's tricky because a lot of reptiles kind of fall under the impulse buy. I know you've shown that not all keepers are that way, right? You have a very good, uh, mindset and planning. And I really like what, what'd you call them? Your, your theses or your, your, uh, my tenants, your tenants. Yep. Yeah. So I, I, and I think, you know, that needs to be

more widespread in the hobby where we, we don't just buy a baby reticulated Python cause we can house it for now. You know, we need to look, you know, maybe even just a couple of years into the future when they get almost unmanageably large, um, to, are we going to have a room size enclosure for the snake? You know, not just wishful thinking like, Oh yeah, I can probably do that by the time it's big enough, you know. So I think if we had more conscientious planning when buying any animal, you know, I think it goes for our furry friends as well. But, you know, that we have that in mind when we're making a purchase to be able to keep that animal for the rest of its life. Because, you know, things could change and maybe nobody wants that animal. You know, what are you going to do then? You know, it's really difficult to find a good home because nobody wants your, you know, giant sulcata or your giant

reticulated python, you know, and it's just going to kind of languish away somewhere or be in a rescue or something like that. And that's never a good situation. So I think more conscientious purchases and more planning. I don't have anything against somebody getting a reticulated python or a sulcata tortoise, but they should have that at the forefront of their mind. How am I going to keep this animal for 20, 30, or 100 years in the case, in the case of the tortoise, potentially. So that's, I guess, how I'd counter initially. Yeah, and I think there's a difference between people getting an animal not knowing what they're getting, or people getting an animal and saying exactly what you said, like, oh, I'll put them in a four-foot enclosure now,

and then by the time they're six foot i'll be able to get a six foot enclosure by the time they're 12 foot i'll find a 12 foot and they don't actually know how they're going to do that while they're you know living in an apartment or still living with their parents or whatever right um versus like i think about myself and i've been keeping reptiles for a couple decades now but never at very high quantities and so as i'm looking around thinking about what i want next there's a whole bunch of question marks because i've never actually experienced them and so unless i go and have an opportunity to be with someone locally that has those things at some point I have to say

you know what I know how I'm going to care for this animal I know how much space that they are going to take I know what um I know what they eat and how I'm going to provide for this animal and then I get it and I'm probably going to get one to start with, but then I might get a couple pretty quickly because I'd want to breed them and I want to make sure I'm sourcing from good places. And then if they're not, if they're not the most interesting for me, which is hard, super hard to tell before you get into it. Um, and I get, you know, so like I'm thinking about

like these poison dart frogs I'm getting, I'm pretty confident about that. But then, because I love the ones I already have and these have slightly different characteristics that I'm really looking forward to, versus, you know, if I get thumbnail dart frog, whichever those tiny little ones, if they really freak me out because every time I open the enclosure, I'm afraid they're jumping out.

And it's stressful every time. Two years into that, am I obligated to keep them for the rest of their life versus finding another person around me that would want them? And then I think about some of the other gecko species i'm interested in getting and i hear people say such great things about them like i'm specifically thinking about like urodactyloides and gonierosaurus geckos so the like chameleon geckos and the cave geckos is what often they're called and i'm hoping to get some or both of them over the next few years, but I've never had anything exactly like those. I guess I've had leopard geckos, which are kind of cave gecko like, but so what if I, what if they don't interact in my room in my limited amount of space that I have the

way I thought they would. It seems like if they're not bringing joy to me and they could bring joy to somebody else because they're a species that clearly lots of people like, why am I therefore obligated to take care of them forever? Yeah. Yeah, and I guess the sad part of that is that human nature usually once you lose interest in something or they're not doing it for you, their their care starts to decline in a lot of cases. And so then you see, you know, cases of animal neglect or, you know, the kind of the dark side of the hobby, I guess you'd say. So, yeah, I definitely can.

It's kind of counterintuitive, right? The more of the blah, blah, blah, blah, like if I'm not into it, move them on may actually be the more empathetic way to be with the animal. You know what I mean? It's kind of counterintuitive. Yeah. it's kind of counterintuitive yeah and and you know i guess i guess um i'm not saying you're necessarily obligated to keep a species you don't like for the rest of your life but when you're purchasing an animal that's kind of when you're you're saying can i keep this for the rest of its life if i love it and it's that's a distinct question for me yeah and so i i guess that kind

of forethought and and things because i mean yeah a lot of things look really cool and i i've heard uh owen talk about like well he likes all the crazy stuff that people get sick of or something but i've heard maybe it's eric saying you know he didn't enjoy keeping like ring pythons or white lip pythons you know that were you know liked it really wet and and had you know like were kind, you know, liked it really wet and, and had, you know, like we're kind of feisty, like bite a lot and they crap and, you know, you know, pee all over you every time you come up. Yeah, exactly.

So it's like, you may not know that when you're just looking at Instagram and you see a beautiful white lip python with all its iridescent, you know, on display and you're just like, oh, that's a cool snake. You know, I would love to keep one of those. So, so I think it's good to, like you said, you know, to, to visit with people who keep them and maybe even go over and see them kind of in action and say, Hey, can you pull this snake out and let me handle it or let me see it. You know, that's not always possible. And, you know, I think, and even if you know the reputation, like you did the homework, it's different when it's your 24 7 like it's always your responsibility yeah and so you know

you're in you're in a dry environment like i am where you know keeping a thing on a moist substrate is very difficult because things dry out so quickly especially during the summer when you have to run the ac unit and it's just pulling all the moisture out of your reptile room, you know, and then you got to kind of counterbalance that with, you know, other ways, you know, foggers or humidifiers or whatever, but, you know, it can be kind of a pain. Sorry, Chuck, you were going to say something. Oh, no. I was just saying, you know, kind of to maybe to, you know, to your side, Justin, my cattle dogs, which isn't reptiles, but they're kind of high-strung. They're not an everybody dog, right?

And I like them, and there's aspects I really like about the dog, but I recognize that they're just being a herding dog. They're high strung they you know they can be nippy they're there are a lot of things that like if if i was just like i don't this isn't working for me move them on they may not have a good outcome because they're you know i you know if i'm not willing to so i like the dog i'm willing to take maybe some of the more negative aspects of the dog on because I know if I don't, if I don't take them on, probably no one else is going to take them on either if I give them up. So I'm probably the last line for that kind of goofball, neurotic dog that just is bred that way. That's how they are. I got one cattle dog that runs

for his kennel when he hears a walk and i got the other one who freaks out and just can't wait to get outside so like i literally have both spectrums and that's totally cattle dog both both ends of that is totally cattle dog so anyway just you know kind of to your point like how do you let something like that go when you know, you know, just just like my anything pretty much that I got from Carrie and Todd, that's absolutely psychotic. And I'm like, man, if I if I move this on, somebody's really, I mean, bite the shit out of them and they're going to be like, I don't like this, you know, So like kind of the same thing, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think so. I think that could, could go along with that. And I mean, yeah, I, you know, of course, if, if you're, if you're going, if things are going to go downhill for you in regards to that,

I mean, you're not interested in my definitely move them on. Yeah, for sure. Don't let them languish in your, in your house. Just cause you feel obligated or Yeah, unarguably so. Absolutely. So I mean that's definitely to Billy's side. But just that – you can't do all – you can't know everything about them in the beginning or if they're going to work in your situation. But give it a best faith effort. Don't just –

I think you have to have your goals and expectations set very, very strongly. How far are you willing to go? And evaluate all of those things before you actually put the wheels of problem in motion for yourself by getting the animal. I think that goes for a lot of things yeah i remember one guy back in the day that was uh i think he got the first albino carpets or head albinos in the country he produced the what you remember that guy what was he lived in utah and uh i can't remember his name. Anyway, I heard he produced an albino. Everybody was excited.

And then he tried to sell it for big money. Then he sold the parents. And then he got into falconry the next week, just completely bouncing around. What was that guy's name, man? Hobby to Hobby. It was crazy. It wasn't Chris Proctor, was it? Was it Chris Proctor?

Yeah, it was Proctor. Chris Proctor. Good job. Yeah, I met the guy. He was a nice enough guy, it? Was it Chris Proctor? Yeah, it was Proctor. Chris Proctor. Good job. Yeah. I met the guy. He was a nice, nice enough guy, but just kind of bounced around from hobby to hobby. Well, but I mean, you know how some people do. Short attention span or something. Yeah. It's kind of crazy. And I guess, you know, like a hobbyist, we kind of have an opportunity to have kind of a flagship species that may not be popular, may not be that mainstream. That people may not even know exists, but, you know, you can kind of popularize and make them well known and maybe even kind of be kind of a reservoir for, for that, uh, group of animals, you know,

maybe they're imported heavily and, and all of a sudden the imports stop. And then all of a sudden you're the only person breeding them, you know? So I think there's, there's some aspects. And I think it was Yasser that the first one that I kind of noticed making that plea is like work with something that's less appreciated or that's you know not worth any commercial value but that you find cool you know i think that's a really cool concept you know because i think we get into this monoculture uh aspect of herpetoculture where everybody just wants to keep ball pythons boas leopard geckos crested gecko you know all the all the same things and then it just becomes a little bit boring.

You go to a reptile show and it's just you don't know when one table ends and the other begins because it's all the same stuff. So, you know, if you have something really cool that catches people's eye or that nobody's working with, I mean, that's kind of, you know, variety is the spice of life. I kind of hope I see a little of both at a reptile show right like yeah and i mean i guess they have their novelty of you know new morphs or different combinations or whatever and you know that floats some people's boat a lot and i i used to get a little more excited

about that but i'm kind of finding myself being less interested in all the genetic mutations and combinations than I was a decade ago. But yeah, I think the other side of people with unusual or rare species as breeding projects is, um, the, you know, if it's not working for you, right? So say you have those white-lipped pythons and you can't get them to reproduce in your settings, probably the best thing for the survival of that species in herpetoculture would be to move them on to someone who is doing a

better job with them um and let them have an opportunity to uh use them as a different line and and keep the keep the genetics good instead of saying oh i you know i pick these out and uh you know i'm just going to give it another four years here. Are you saying that reptiles are not a nut to be cracked? What? How dare you, sir? How dare you? Sorry, on behalf of all the listeners, I had to say that.

Yeah, I mean, we have a good friend, Keith McPeak, that just moved on his bull andna that he had for many years. You know, prime pairs that were doing great for him otherwise, but just, you know, they just weren't reproducing for him. And so he moved those on to somebody who would be able to, you know, maybe have a bigger group or whatnot, you know. And he got some Lanthanotis, some of the earless monitors and, and, uh, he's playing with those now. So yeah, I can definitely see like for the betterment, for the better, you know, for the good of the species, um, finding somebody that, you know, may have more success or may have a better chance of, of doing what you might not have been able to do. But I mean, and definitely Keith gave it his best effort and was passionate about it for,

for a very long time. And it still is passionate about it. You know, he still cares about the species. And I think that's kind of the main reason he moved those on was exactly what you said. So I would agree. That's a good reason to move something on, especially if you, if you got an animal just for Instagram likes, you know, you, you you had you're a youtuber and you had an extra 10 grand and so you got a bull and i or two and and uh and uh you know just have them for for the the shock and awe of i i spent 20 grand on a pair of snakes not because you really care about the species but you want the the likes you know

that's probably not a very good faith purchase. Yeah. Exactly, yeah. And so moving those on to somebody who can't afford them, maybe can't afford a $20,000 pair of snakes, but would potentially reproduce them and maybe make them more available is definitely a noble cause. It's a very expensive bunch of likes.

Yes. And that's tricky. I mean, you know, anytime something goes up in price like that, it's really a tricky thing. It becomes, once money's involved. And I think that's, you know, maybe, I don't know, I guess that could work either way, right?

Either side. If the animals are worth a lot of money, you know, and you can reproduce them and, uh, keep them healthy and happy and give them the space and care they need, um, you're going to be able to move those offspring and, and potentially make money that will, that will perpetuate your hobby and allow you to, you know, care for them even better. Get them, get them. It wouldn't be a show without an interruption from Ruby, right? So, um, so, you know, I think, you know, there's definitely those, those, uh, aspects of it. You know, if you can be successful with a species that maybe other people have a hard time with, or that you've kind of dedicated your time and effort

and focus to, um, you know, you can, you can definitely make that a good thing for yourself as well as others that are interested in it. And if you have that excitement for it it's kind of it's kind of uh a uh contagious thing right you get excited about a species and you're gung-ho about them and talking about them all the time putting out content or whatever about this species other people tend to notice that and and i think there's you know some really good examples of that in the hobby for sure. Frank Payne, you know, he's really good at kind of getting those lesser seen, lesser known projects and making them appeal to a wide variety of people. So, yeah, I think there is some benefit to kind of having those long-term projects because there is a lot of fluct nobody was was thinking about them then you know i get it you know trying to compete with import prices can be maddening and that's not very fun

but um i think for the most part people pay a little extra or a lot extra for a captive bred animal versus a wild caught especially with the prices some of these wildcats are coming in under but so i yeah i guess i make that point yeah um no i hard to argue with some of those i would say since you brought up frank pain i heard him on the uh reptile entrepreneur podcast this week um talking about the project it's good it's good You should listen to it. It's Bill Strand with the Chameleon Academy. It's one of his kind of like side podcasts. Oh, cool.

I like that. So Frank Payne talking about his criteria for the animals that he chooses and then how he decides to move on projects, which I thought was really interesting. And so describing in particular, and he has very different objectives than me, for example, where I don't really care about making money on these animals. And if eventually I make some and could even cover the cost of some of my supplies,

that would be amazing. But that's not even really my goal, versus how he provides a big chunk of income for his family um but he was talking about having his um uh spiny iguanas i think um banana pectinata um iguanas um and how much space they took up only having a few pairs and deciding that he needed to move them on so that he could continue with some of the smaller species that he was doing. Like talking about beauty anoles being one of the other, you know, slightly bigger species, but being able to fit dozens of them into the same amount of space that he wanted to have those iguanas in. Um, and so he moved the, he moved the project on and he moved it on,

you know, together for someone else to, to use instead of, you know, chopping it up and profiteering on it as much as possible. Um, and so to me, that seems like a really good example of someone like, you know, I have no doubt in my mind, he knew exactly what he was getting into. And then a couple of years in decided this isn't working and this isn't the way forward. Um, and then described taking in a few other animals where he gets a few pairs in to figure out which ones are going to be the next big projects.

Um, and so not very many people are going to be the next big projects. Um, and so not very many people are going to be Frank Payne's, you know, like that many of us are going to have a real full-time job, but I think in a smaller scale, cause I, yeah, I was thinking about it. Like if I get something and it's not exactly what I was hoping for a few years in, um, the ability to move it on somebody else. I, um, but yeah, I think you said it earlier, like the difference between getting it, knowing the possibilities and getting it and knowing, um, everything like exactly and how it's going to be for you perfectly.

Yeah. I think maybe a little different twist on that too is thinking about once you buy into a project, you usually get them as juveniles and sometimes if you buy a group, you can get a pretty, you know, you usually get them as, as, uh, juveniles. And sometimes if you buy a group, you can get a pretty good deal or something. But, um, usually when you sell an adult animal, that's, you know, potentially reproductive and ready to go, you're probably going to lose money, you know, in some way, or you're not going to get what you think you probably should get out of that animal. So, um, I think a lot of people, and, and sometimes that kind of messes up, uh, the pricing structure, whatever, for whatever that's worth, I guess. I don't know how, how excited I am about pricing

structures at all, but, um, you know, a lot of times if people are getting out of adult projects and they have to sell them for less or have to sell them quickly or something, they're usually going to take a loss or sell it to the highest bidder, the first one to ask for them. And so that can be somewhat problematic as well. And so, you know, I guess keep that in mind. If you do have to move on a project, maybe, you know, don't expect that you're going to get every last cent project maybe you know don't expect that you're gonna get every last cent out of them and don't expect that you know everybody's gonna be excited to buy adult animals especially if you haven't been able to prove them out now i know some people can take

animals like i've got a friend that can take animals like that and and he'll reproduce them in the first year you know when the person had them for 15 years and couldn't get any offspring out of them so some people just kind of have that midas touch i guess when it comes to certain species or animals in general but um you know i i think uh don't don't just dump them on the market you know don't just put them in your local classifieds and look for the first person with the checkbook to show up you know like make sure you're you're trying to do good for the animals find a good home for them find somebody who might be successful with them even if it means taking a little bit more of a loss um you know potentially this is more of a point for you but potentially keeping them together two versus you know depending on how big the group is, like if it's just a trio,

something that's relatively rare, trying to find someone that can take a trio versus like if you're getting out of your collection of like locality keen snakes and you got 50 of them or something, maybe dividing them up in ways that are reasonable, but still that's so projects can continue. So you don't break projects and break lineages. Even if you could get you know 20 more money if you were to sell them individually to the highest bidder yeah yeah and it's probably not the right way to do it yeah that is kind of i mean it seems like a lot of there is kind of a lot of that uh noah's ark type keeping and And I'm guilty of that to some extent

where I have small groups of a lot of species rather than one large group. I guess I would compare that with like Ron St. Pierre where he buys 30 of a certain species and sets up a large group and sets them up in large enclosures outdoors in Florida or something like that, you know, compared to getting just a pair or two of a, of a certain species. So, um, you know, I'm definitely guilty of that, but yeah, these, these large projects where I do have

a few of those large projects where I have multiple animals and multiple breeders of the same species. And, and I, I want to, you know, have a reservoir of those as well for myself. So I, you know, I need to move or I have moved a lot of those on. So in case, you know, some catastrophic event, like a fire takes out my whole collection, I can, you know, have a source of those in the, in the future, you know, I've, I've produced enough that they're out there and hopefully people are breeding them, you know, but there is no guarantee. I, you know, I, I always, I always go back to, uh, um, Bert Langewerf and when he passed away and, you know, that, that I think they were trying to sell the whole, uh, his whole Agama international ranch is, you know, the property, the lizards, everything together. And I don't think they, I think

somebody bought it, but I don't remember if they kept like certain species or if those went somewhere else, but cause all of a sudden Australian water dragons kind of disappeared. You know, you had a few people that are producing them pretty well, but for the most part, like he was the main guy for the Australian water dragons. And, and I get it, you know, everybody has different, um, ideas of what, what the, and, and I don't think they were, he wasn't selling them for very much per per animal. And so people thought, well, you can't make money on that project. So I'm going to pass, but I guess that, you know, being hobbyists, we have kind of a little bit of a more flexibility in that regard.

We don't have to make a ton of money. You know, most hobbies don't make any money. They cost a lot of money. So, you know, we're kind of fortunate in one way where we can kind of recoup our losses by selling some offspring to good homes. But, you know, I think if we have more of that attitude of like, this is not, this is not a business, this is a hobby. And, you know, I want to do the best thing I can for the animals that I choose to keep and, you know, move towards that goal. Uh, that's probably a good way to do it. And I think a lot of us got kind of caught up in the, you know, the, the giant, uh, rows of Rubbermaid,

uh, uh, you know, tubs and, and the, the Brian Barczyk, you know, warehouse idea of being a reptile breeder. And, and, you know, granted there may be a place for that as far as supplying, um, pet shops with a large number of, uh know captive bred animals and i i guess there there could be some some positives to that but for the most part getting everybody excited about being a giant rack breeder you know the the walmart of reptiles is probably not a good thing and looking back on it it's pretty grotesque isn't it yeah exactly and and i guess hindsight is 2020 so worse always yeah and and i feel like you know i i i was a little excited about that i i admit it you know seeing that and being like wow that's that's a lot of snakes how cool is that you know

that's a business right there but then you know as you grow and learn and you're like, wait a second, maybe that isn't a great thing to do for everybody. You know, like I said, you know, some people certainly certainly shouldn't have been the the the model dream for, you know, keepers like. Yeah, I don't know how that got to be the we want everybody to scheme. Right. It was it was like you can make money too just buy these two and put them in a tub and soon you'll have 30 and you can sell them for this much and make this much money and you too can be a rich reptile breeder you know that's it's kind of how how how they sold sold us on the dream i guess or that nightmare whatever you want to call it. Yeah. Yep, that's a tricky one, I guess, is when you have to move on, and you see a lot of divorce or having to sell off collections

to kind of settle that in a divorce. And it's really sad to see some really cool projects kind of go down the tubes pretty quick when that happens. So I don't know what the answer is, but, you know. So are you saying that if you would have moved some stuff on strategically earlier, you would have saved the project? That's the question, you know. And I don't know what, I mean, because I guess people would look at Burt Langworth and say,

oh, he's the guy, he's doing it. I don't need to do it. Right. There's no incentive. I can't compete with him. Yeah, I think that. He's doing it. I don't need to do it. There's no incentive. I can't compete with Ron. That's a problem that I don't know what to do about. Yeah, that's a trick. It's not the case that he wasn't selling tons of dragons. He sold tons of them.

They were out there. And I guess, I'm sure some of the offspring did survive, and those are the people that are producing them today. And I talked to Ron about that. He was breeding them for a while. And he's like, they just weren't my thing. So I moved over, you know.

So he could have been producing. He could have been the next Bert in that regard. And also if it's not your thing and it's not really a thing at the time, it's easy to see where, you know, they just disappear because people are like, well, I can't sell these or, you know, they're not really my thing or whatever. But it's, you know, all of a sudden it's like, you know, where do they go? Where do they go? Yeah. I want these now.

I really want these now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's hard. You know. For sure. Yeah.

And I mean, I don't know. There's a lot of reptiles that I would love to keep. But I've learned that it's so much better to limit yourself and just really be really selective and really sure of what you want and that you're going to be able to house them properly and all that good stuff from the get-go. It's a lot easier to do it at the front end rather than the back end and have a large collection. And all of a sudden I feel bad, you know, I'm keeping them in, in a rack and now I need to move them to cages, but I've got to, now I've got to buy a bunch of cages or find room to set them all up or, you know, move on some and get rid of some that I really like, even just to, to give them a better home, things like that. So I think that, uh, that can

be a tricky thing. So, you know, if you're, if you're just getting into it, I mean, it's a real big, um, it's a real, real big temptation just to dive in and get all that you can as fast as you can and, and those kinds of things. And's where billy's tenants come in and you know we need to kind of do it with forethought and with planning and things like that i think you know if you can maintain some of the flexibility in your life um however that is you know whether that's just keeping a couple animals long term you know one or two and just this is this is what i like and this is what i you know i'm keeping or if you you know, one or two, and just this is what I like and this is what I'm keeping. Or if you do it with a modest-sized collection that maybe you're moving a little bit more often

as stuff, picking stuff up, taking stuff that you're not interested, depending upon how you're kind of doing it. I think one of my biggest things that I feel is the weight of being tied down by a big collection and, and like with all the great points that you guys brought up about, you know, mortality and, and just how things change year to year, much less decade to decade and, and all of that. It's, it's, it's such a, such a good idea to travel light. And I think that you can still travel light and still, you know, kind of have it either way. Right. Like, isn't that the awesomest part? And like, if you want to go out herping,

yeah, you don't have a huge collection to take care of. And you know, you're free to do that. Or if you want to fly to Australia, you're're not burdening your family or whatever you know what i mean i just i think there's just some real benefit to that anyway i digress yeah yeah no i think it's something i've been thinking about a fair amount um like to speak from my own experience as like so i had not a big collection like a half a dozen or so animals in high school and going off to college had to rehome most of them and so um and thinking back on it i don't know if i did a good job right like i put in like a craigslist ad and someone came by and took, uh, all my geckos and I have no idea what happened. Um, and then throughout the, in like four years of school and then 10 years of medical,

uh, training, I knew I didn't want to do that again. And so I just had my one bearded dragon. And then when he died into his, I think it was around 14, 15, then I got my ball python that I still have. And so now it's just been these last two years that I finally am done with training, got my first job, first real job, bought a house and have like space to actually do something. And it's like, oh, I have all this opportunity, but how do I actually want to do it? And I'm doing it much differently than 16 year old me would have done it. But at the same time, it's like, oh, if I make a wrong decision and I get, you know, like, God forbid, a tortoise, you know, like, do I have it? Like, now I'm, like, it's for my children, you know, for, you know. And, yeah, so it's a thing I'm thinking about of, like, if I get something that's not – despite all of my learning about it, not the thing I want, what do I do with that?

And what's the obligation? Yeah. And I mean we do learn the hard way a lot of times like you said, and I think, you know, our good friend Steve Sharp, he got out of keeping entirely because he couldn't, you know, kind of get over that, you know, the feeling of I'm putting these animals are having a potentially having a miserable life because of me. You know, I'm bringing him into the world by breeding these animals, selling them to people who might let them languish or, you know, so, you know, that, that, uh, aspect of it just, you know, really weighed on his, his soul, you know? So, yeah. I mean, even if you're keeping great care of your animals, if you're moving some along, whether that's rehoming or, uh, selling offspring, that's out of your control.

And some, and, and, you know, don't get it twisted. Life is out of your control and some and and you know don't get it twisted life is out of our control i mean there's so much is that out of our control that we would like to say that we establish some control over but we don't so i mean you know i i think you act ethically you act morally but in the end like you know you kind of got to be real with like shit happens yeah well and two in the wild i mean how many are making it you know out of the first few days of life you know a lot of things are getting eaten pretty quickly or having a savage end you know that they're meeting or or a long drawn out you know prolonged i mean i'm sure we've all seen those animals in the wild that are just, you know, just barely hanging on.

And they're going to die soon. And, you know, it's tragic. But life's pretty rough, you know. So I think in a lot of ways, you know, animals in captivity have it pretty good. And sometimes we kill them with kindness, you know. We're giving them too much and too good of a life. And that's not great for some reptiles either. So, yeah, I mean the ethics, you know, ethics aside, that's a, that's

a, that's a big can of worms for sure. But, you know, I, I definitely think we need to consider those ethics and think about those things when we're, when we're taking on and supporting life in our garage or in our house or whatever, you know? So that's, uh, that's definitely a consideration we made. Well, we, uh, covered it. Anything else you can think of or any other points you want to make? Um, I think we, we, we discussed some pretty good topics, but I think there's also, this is a point for you, not for me, so switching sides. The idea that the stress of moving an animal, too. And so paradoxically, it does seem like sometimes that's the stress that makes them breed.

Yeah. But clearly them leaving the situation that they feel is their home environment is stressful to a lot of them. And so I think that's, you know, we're not dealing with inanimate merchandise. You know, we're dealing with living creatures. And so I think that's another reason to have your mindset when you're going into getting them

that you're getting them for their natural life. Yeah. I mean, that is kind of a paradox, right? Some animals do much better once they're shipped somewhere else and that stimulates them to eat better or breathe or whatever it's kind of crazy and yeah they like go into like a uh fight or flight type situation or something i don't know yeah yeah i mean and and even like you know poor chuck trying to you know with the helm of harris moving him to a different cage could potentially reset him for you know know, five years or something. So, like, it can be rough.

Stupid things. No, it's, I mean, it's, I cannot express how disappointed I am. Just, and it's like, what do you do, man? Like, you can't even get mad about it, you know? It's like, you're just lucky to have what you have. Shut up. know what i mean so it's like but it is it's frustrating you you thought you you know you thought you really thought you like made a breakthrough and now it's all like did you does it what was that what happened you know and i do you go backwards do you go do you continue to go forwards like i don't

i don't even know which way to go now so yeah all those questions are like did i is this the reason is this you know it's just hard it's almost impossible to figure everything out and you know getting to get into the mind of those animals and maybe some people are better at that and they they uh that's why they're so successful i don't know, but I definitely don't fall into that category most of the time. Yeah. I'm not ready to move them on because I feel unsuccessful. So we're not there yet. Well, and you've got an army of babies.

I know, I know. Pretty soon you're going to be just swimming in them, I'm sure, with Captain Reds. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see. Well, yeah, I really think, you know, that getting in that mindset of, you know, taking on a new species, whether you have to move it on or not, but just having that attitude of I'm going to do the best I can and I'm going to give it the best life possible. And I'm going to help, you know, the offspring that come as a result of these animals, uh, get the best life they can too. So that's, that's not always the easiest thing, but, uh, if we, if we make a concerted effort and strive to really do these animals justice and give them a good, happy life, then, um, we can't do much more than that, I think. I agree. All right.

Well, that was a good discussion topic. Thanks for bringing that on and coming back and fighting with us again. Yeah, good. Thank you. Thanks for inviting me. Of course. Any cool – I mean, you put me on to that podcast, the – was it Reptile Entrepreneur? Yeah. I favorited that in my podcast app it's good

yeah to give it a listen yeah bill strand he's he's done some good shows that um i think rob was the one that turned me on to the chameleon academy podcast uh talking about the um fogging oh those episodes are amazing it was mind- blowing. Really cool stuff. So yeah, that was, that was fun to listen to. And I need to go back and listen to him again and maybe put some of those things into practice or something. Yeah.

Yeah. I feel like there's a whole bunch of, um, you know, niche podcasts and you find the ones that you like because that you're also in that sector. Yeah. I don't have any chameleons.

I don't know if I'll ever have chameleons. And I listen to most of those podcasts because the way he describes things, I find really interesting. And the, like his process, I really like a lot. Yeah. Yeah.

Another one I listened to recently that really got the wheels turning was, uh, Will Filipec. That was, he was on eric and owen with eric and owen and talk well i guess it was eric and rob rob uh rob's a bright guy so it was it's always fun to listen to him on the on the podcast but i'm talking about uh the um what were they talking about again oh whether you could breed pythons year round and that you

know that got kind of some questions and some ideas maybe for some future fight clubs or something. Just talking about, you know, thinking about those topics. Have we had Will on here? If we haven't, I think I was talking to him about coming on. So we need to get him on here. He's the right guy. For sure. Fun to listen to his

make it happen julander i know i know um but uh i don't know if you guys i i listened to the venom exchange radio podcast uh recently oh phil and nipper those guys are great so it's fun to hear uh nippers recap of the utah trip and nice i'll have to check that out it was fun it was a good trip that was uh hard to beat we found all the rare stuff which was you know when you're finding a liar snake and a speckled rattlesnake but you don't see a gopher snake in utah that's a weird trip that is a weird trip pretty epic but and two two gila monsters to. An awesomely weird trip. Yeah, I'll take that trip. Yeah, that's a good trip. In a year.

And, man, the number of mountain kings that are being found in Utah this year is incredible. I've got a friend that's found like a dozen of them. It's like crazy. I need to find one. Yeah, for real. Rubbing salt in your wound. It's like rubbing salt in your yes salt in your wound man to be fair i've only gotten out to look for him a couple times this year so see it all comes

back to yeah and they live in you know he's he lives within their habitat you know within yeah yeah so it's a lot easier to go um you know so he's but he's doing you a favor. He's like, looky, looky here. So you're like, oh, man, I've got to go, right? Yeah, yeah. It's hard, yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, it is what it is. I've gotten out locally and seen, you know, quite a few of the, like, rubber boas, which is fun to see. And some other things.

So I guess I can do my looky, looky here, too. That's awesome. If anybody cares about rubber boas. What cool, weird snakes they are. So, yeah, I don't know. Any other cool things out there? I've been enjoying, speaking of another animal group I don't have anything of, but for turtles, the Let's Talk Turtle podcast.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Ryan DeMoss. Yeah. And Tom. Yeah. Their passion is infectious. I know, right? And then hearing about, like, building outdoor enclosures

and then the intersections of preservation and conservation and the stuff. Like, i do think tourist people are doing it a little differently and so you're um i think there's a lot of things that we could learn from them and so i mean i've learned a lot by listening to them talk yeah yeah i think a lot of times we get in that mindset we need to stick to our niche and you know just focus on the things that talk but once you start crossing the streams and looking at other uh types you see a lot of parallels and you see a lot of things that you can benefit from and that you can actually learn from

and and grow from you know and then you can hold conversations with those people too because you know a little bit about tortoises now because you're listening to these podcasts and you can carry on a conversation with somebody who may have you know disparate uh interests compared to your own so yeah it's kind of kind of fun i i really like that we've had ryan on here a couple times and he's he's he's a good uh good one to fight with he likes he's really funny yeah good there's a a book that I've been reading health and welfare of captive reptiles it's like a textbook that has

some of the people that contribute to it are pretty hostile toward keepers but I think it is a good perspective to have then and to challenge what you're doing can I defend what I'm doing to these people

even if they're maybe using science with a slant for their agenda and so there are parts of it that I've been I get a little upset about, but a lot of it, some of it has opened my eyes and challenged me to do things, uh, to a different level and different standard. Um, but yeah, it's good. I'm like two thirds of the way through it and it's, it's, it's a good one. Cool. Yeah, that's cool. I started reading,

uh, discovering snakes in Places. It's Harvey Lillywhite's book and kind of just his herping adventures kind of thing, you know, encounters with wild reptiles. So I've only just started it, but it kind of has that tone of some of the older school books, you know, the herping adventures. So it's a fun one. I've enjoyed the first few chapters. Nice.

Good stuff. A lot of good, too many good books out there. Yeah. I've got a lot that I still need to get through and read, but yeah, good stuff well I guess that'll do it for us thanks for coming on you want to throw your info out there again?

yeah sure creepersherpeticulture is my Instagram and that's really the best place to find me sounds good well we'll thank the Morelia Pythons Radio Network. I'll put in another plug for Carpet Fest, August 12th, I believe, in Pennsylvania at Eric's house. It should be a good party.

They just put up their Carpet Fest t-shirts on the Morelia Python's Teespring store and so even if you can't attend you can buy a t-shirt and feel like you're part of the group check that out but yeah we're thankful to Eric and Owen and what they

do and the network so we'll catch you again next week for another episode of Reptile Fight Club. I'm just kidding. We're leaving. Bye. Thank you. Bye.