Reptile Fight Club - Am I a herpetologist or a herpetoculturalist?

Episode Date: August 18, 2023

Justin and Chuck tackle the most controversial topics in herpetoculture. The co-hosts or guests take one side of the issue and try to hold their own in a no-holds-barred contest of intellect. Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the question, Am I a herpetologist or a herpetoculturalist?Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to Red Top High Court, it is me, Justin June, your host. I'm here in the digital space with me, Mr. Chuck Poland. What is up? Not much. How are you? Doing well. Doing much better today. I got my proposal off, out of my hands. So, hopefully some more funding coming my way to keep me employed for another who are you proposing to uh the nih and my true love uh they keep me keep me in in a job so yeah gotta love

them it kind of is your alley yep i'm part of that broken system that's just, you know. I mean, you're not a government employee. I'm at least a government employee. Oh, wow. If you're going to talk participant in a broken system. I'm going to take that system down. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Calm down, man.

As a government employee, I can neither support or dissent on anything that has been said in this broadcast. Thank you. The opinions expressed by Chuck are his alone and do not represent the U.S. government. That is correct. Well, how's life treating you? You guys warming up out there? Yeah, it's hot. It's hot here too.

Yeah, it got really hot pretty quick. It was such a mild spring and summer, and then it just went back to how it usually is. So it's not a big surprise. It's almost August, and it's hot as fucking san diego that's yeah pretty much how it goes so yeah yeah yeah do you i guess uh i guess are you far enough away from the ocean that you don't get the the kind of 70 degrees so i'm yeah so i'm west side of the mountains but i'm still inland of the ocean so the kind of the area we're at kind of i feel like gets kind of a corridor breeze but no it's not like

um it's not like uh like when i when i drive onto the island when i when i go over the bridge i mean it's like if you have the windows down it's like instant like 10 degree temp drop yeah you know it's just like it's the second you hit it yeah yeah yeah so um so yeah so it's funny because like i would say like the island is 10 degrees cooler than chula vista and chula vista is probably 20 degrees cooler than over the mountains, which is like, you know, Campo, Delzura, Borrego, all that stuff. Yeah. So it's all desert on the other side. I love that place. But man, that will melt you.

Oh, yeah. And in the summer, like, yeah, well, I love Borrego in the spring when it's not, you know, sweltering, horrible. I mean, deserts are horribly hot and horribly cold. Yeah. So. Yeah. Extreme. Yeah.

And catching them at their extremes is no fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. It bakes your brain. But that can be a good thing sometimes. I like to get, you know. Baked by the desert.

That did not work out. I tried. I tried. Desperately, I tried. So, oh, man, I'm excited to get back out herping sometime, but I don't know how soon. It was overcast the other day. I was really tempted, but I spent time with Heidi instead. So, yep. sometimes you got to make

that choice right that's correct that's correct i was watching the uh the on youtube um the catch it guys have you seen their stuff catch it like i'm pretty sure that's what their their name is on youtube but anyway they um they came to utah Like, they found everything, like, in the more montane stuff, like, further north. So we found everything in St. George, so I can't complain. But they found, like, in the same day, they got, like, a milk, a ring neck. I think they got a couple milks, including one with this bright red head um that my buddy uh got you know that uh he he flipped but oh it was incredible looking and yeah i'm like dang it i need to find that freaking i mean neck and and they found a couple mountain kings further south like and you know they had

they had some pretty good guides i think but i think yeah they were driving along and found a spot and said we're're going to look here. And they found a couple milks. And I think that might have been where they found the ring next. And they were saying, oh, this is a county that's not well known for these. And you could hear cars driving by pretty quickly. Busy. Yeah, I hear the traffic going by.

So I'm like, that's that's cool you know more power to them i love it when people like just say yeah that looks good i'm gonna look there and they find stuff you know yeah yeah so this this year was a good year for that kind of stuff i think a lot of people found mountain kings except me and a lot of people found like milk snakes except me um stuff like that so crazy stuff yeah they found a green snake smooth green i think it's smooth maybe it's rough but yeah one of the green snakes that occurs here um cool stuff it makes me uh wish but not you lasted three or four months yeah i haven't found a green yet either i i have seen a green when i was a kid i found one in a tree when i was little but it's been a long time since been a while find another one yeah but i need to spend more time

in the area where they're from because i haven't really done any herping in those areas so yep can't can't be can't be uh hating on anyone else's finds when you're not out there looking huh exactly yeah we spent a lot of time down in southern southwestern utah and found some good stuff so that yeah i'm happy with that yeah no that's i mean you grudge any other finds and be sad about not finding stuff but it gives you motivation well i mean if you had to make big finds where would you rather do it northern or southern utah oh i love the desert stuff so see yeah me too and i think that's kind of what's what's you know been a major hindrance to me finding some of this stuff is i i never thought about mountains when i thought about herping like i always wanted to

go to the desert like desert stuff that's my jam my jam, you know, like I like it. But now lately I'm starting to get more into the mountain stuff after doing those trips down to Southern Arizona, finding the montane rattlesnakes, you know? Yeah. I'm like, okay, maybe the mountains aren't so bad. And then I, you know, I'll see all the people finding mountain Kings. I'm like, yeah, that would be cool to find one here. And I, you know, I did look a little bit, but you know, that would be cool to find one here and i you know i did look a little bit but you know not not enough to find one yet i guess so fair yeah what do you do i'm thinking maybe you know september october maybe getting out there i don't know if i'll have time in october but september potentially for a trip kind of central utah looking for mountain kings. Nice. Yeah. So last eggs hatched out. I actually sexed out the inlands yesterday, and it's a pretty even split, males to females.

Nice. Nice. Holy smokes. So hopefully they get feeding as easily as last year's. They did pretty well. And then got pretty much all the anteresia separated out i think i have one more clutch that i gotta get separated out there they're all together for a little while longer and then yeah um start getting them all feeding i so far so good

except for the pygmies like pretty much all this uh the uh children's and spotted's that i've set up have taken food first try like now there's a couple that maybe be their holdouts but pretty much all of them have eaten in your in your breeding succession uh over time do you feel like they've gotten easier you know the clutches successively have gotten easier for you to get going for, for those species? Like, do you feel like once you kind of lock a species on, it kind of like gets a little easier? I, I think so. I mean, I think, you know, at least with the, the Westerns, um, the, the Western stems, um, seems like there was, uh, you know, where I, where I had some, some stuff that was, you know, less established or whatever, you know, whatever you want to say

there. And the first, uh, you know, first years for F1 generation, they, they did better than the parents. And then the second generation did better than the F1. So, yeah, it just keeps improving. And maybe that's, I don't know. Yeah, it's hard to quantify, I guess, and say, yeah, they're better. Maybe I just don't remember. But it seems like I struggled pretty hard. But, you know,. You know, we can talk about, um, domestication or, you know, if things get easier as you get established in captivity, or if that's just a local thing where they're used to your set up, set up and, you know, they do better. But if you'd ship them to somebody else, maybe they'd revert. I don't know. It's hard to some of those things. And then what's the other one? Um, uh, how to, how to do that properly or how to, you know, determine that in a realistic manner. You know, how to set up an experiment. I don't know.

I've been thinking about that a little bit. I don't know how to make a Fight Club topic out of it yet, but maybe we'll get back to that. Yeah. And then there was another one in there, but it's lost my, it's fled from my brain. Bye. So long. Farewell. Yeah. one in there but it's lost my it's fled from my brain bye so long for real yeah so we'll see it again i i hope so yeah yeah it's in there it's somewhere somewhere rattling around that's right if i don't write it down it'll buzz you you just have to almost step on it. You got to have a dream and wake up and write it down. Ah.

Whoa, that's what it was. That's right. Yeah. So. But yeah, it was cool to see people finding some cool stuff in Utah. And, you know, herping in Utah, it's a great place to herp. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's been pretty good.

One of my buddies said it's a great place except for the zion curtain he said that's what may be keeping people out i don't know i don't mind it it's it's it's cool with me but i don't you know i don't know that it impacts things too much but that was uh yeah i still feel like you got plenty of state to share. Oh, yeah, yeah. You're okay. I mean, you can be indignant about Californians moving there. I'm okay with that. Oh, yeah, of course. Everybody's got to yell about Californians moving there.

But at least let us come see your national parks and then go back. Us who shall return from where we came from can come visit. You're not the problem, right? Yeah. I try not to get hassled or harassed if you've got plates, you know, that's fair. That's fair. That's why I trained mixed martial arts, man. Is that a Mr. Miyagi thing? You train so you don't have to fight. That's right. That's's right that's what you true we train like we fight oh yeah well unfortunately we do train like we fight i hurt my calf yeah i strained my calf last week another injury yeah yeah so so that was uh

that was unfortunate but you know it's just i don't know man i'm getting old like i gotta just kind of chalk it up to like yeah i mean so what was i oh i rode my bike to work the other day i'm gonna ride again tomorrow but yeah my butt was feeling like yeah like i even had the padded you know biking shorts and everything but man it's yeah it's not well no i mean and and i strained my calf not so you know you would think somebody kicked the shit out of me or something like no that's not what happened i went to actually kick some tie pads and when i went to throw the kick i felt something in my calf go yeah Yeah. So literally just from pushing off, I, I injured myself. So I injure myself in mixed martial arts. That's how good I am is, is the battle is all internal.

I am my own training partner. Yeah. It's ridiculous. Yeah. After 40, I'm afraid. Yep. So I, I, if nothing nothing else i am just a symbol to my training partners that you need to take care of your body because it will it will fail you in your later years if you don't so yeah i felt i felt pretty good on my ride but then got back and compared my times from 20 what 16 18 last time i was driving riding uh frequently and yeah they were quite a bit slower so i'm like okay yeah well to be fair i mean yeah was that were you comparing the first time you rode to the first time you rode it was like the yeah yeah yeah give yourself some time man a little bit of time. But yeah, I need to be consistent.

Remember, show that young you what the older you is made out of. Can do. You know? That's what it's about. Yeah. That's what it's about. You're so competitive, I got to believe that you're willing to try and beat the younger you. You know what I mean?

I'm trying to get over that a little bit. But yeah, I have a hard time. No, don't do that. I got to be the same speed as You know what I mean? I'm trying to give it like, trying to get over that a little bit, but yeah, I have a hard time. No, don't do that. I gotta be the same speed as I was when I was younger. Yeah. Well,

it's hard. All right. So, uh, yeah, I don't think you, you, I don't think you'll,

that's a successful strategy. Cause I have not been able to do it, but, uh, but definitely, you know, pushing, pushing your,

you know, not, not, uh, succumbing to age, man. That's – do hard stuff. When I did the trip to New Zealand, my cousin brought his friend and he was like probably a good 10 years older than me. But he was like on fire in shape, like walking up trails up straight uphill you know just dusting me

i'm like yeah holy crap i want to be like him when i'm 50 something you know yep yep that's true though take care of your bodies because you know that comes easy when you're young it doesn't come so easy when you're old you think oh i'm just gonna train for it but then you tweak your calf and yeah you think you leave all that dumb shit that you do back in your younger years but no it just accumulates in your body and then shows up later like all at once right yeah yep okay enough talking about yeah about yeah senility and back to snakes or something yeah um my i've got one more clutch incubating The

California king snakes Oh nice So that'll be fun To see those guys What are you doing with that? I want to release Some back into the Where I collected the female from

Just to reduce my impact. Although it's, it's hard. It's a hard call because it's a developed area, you know, so release them back into a developed area with the chance that they're just going to get hit by a car or, you know,

killed by a hoe or something like that. Killed by a hoe. Not that. Damn. What a cold way to go out getting killed by. Oh, oh, Justin. There are a lot of prostitutes in there. That was it. That was it. God damn, you're on fire. You're not kidding. Oh, man. All right. All right. But yeah, so I'm planning on releasing some of them. I'm going to get, you know, I'm probably going to give a couple away to some friends that, you know, are interested.

But yeah, we'll see how that goes. I need to keep a male because I've got a female from that same area. So I'd like to keep that locality. How big is the clutch? It's like 10 eggs or so maybe 12 something around there nice yeah yeah it's a it was a decent sized clutch i didn't expect her to lay so many i was kind of surprised when i the eggs kept coming so it's pretty cool but it looks like one is either kicking off yeah i still have another 20 30 days on them so one's one looked like it was kicking off so we'll see

okay see how they hatch out but i just have them at room temperature in my reptile room so they're and there's pretty big fluctuations in temp so i'm hoping that doesn't do them in you know didn't have an 80 degree you know or i don't even know what colubrid eggs incubate at you know that kind of room temperature they can do fine so hopefully they'll make it um yeah all right the uh hosmeri are doing really well the two cool two babies um hanging in there and eating crickets in front of me and stuff so that's been fun um my female depressa is still pretty big but i don't know maybe she's just eating a lot so we'll see see if anything comes of that got those two litters of skinks so need to anybody want to buy some wholesale skinks hit me up um i would like to

get rid of those quickly but um yeah other than that it's slowing down a little bit in the incubator but it's picking up in the reptile room yeah yeah i need to move some animals here i just fed a bunch of snakes last night or yesterday and man it took me like three hours yeah i'm like what the hell i don't even have that many snakes. Like what the fuck? So, yeah, that's a, it can be a time consumer. Yeah. Well, it's stupid. Cause I, I keep on like a, like a, like a shredded Aspen. It's like a, like a, but yeah. So, but, so I put a paper towel down cause usually my rodents are wet and then like they'll get on, you know, get the bedding all over.

It sticks to the rodent and then, you know, it gets ingested. So I just like offer it, let them wrap it and then just take a paper towel and set it underneath them and set it down and let them eat it. It's the stupidest freaking shit ever. But it works and it makes me feel it's the stupidest freaking shit ever but it works and it makes me feel safe and they don't ingest substrate so that's what i'm doing and that's why it takes me in the wild without you i know right that's i know well apparently the rats notice they dry in the wild yeah yeah then again i'm i'm feeding you know pre-killed from my rodent colony so i don't have to thought are you just starting live then or are you

yeah okay pretty much like yeah so yeah i i probably should thaw some out every once in a while and like bulk some of the animals out. I wouldn't. I think the way you do it's fine. I have such better feeding. I need to rotate the frozen stuff. You know what I mean? I get it from that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But that's kind of good, getting them going. Because I just think life's so much better to get little carpets started on. They seem to key in on that movement. Something like a fuzzy that doesn't have on that movement. Something like a, you know, like a fuzzy that doesn't have his eyes open, something like that. And,

uh, just drop it in there and all day long, man, easy money. Yeah. They're pretty, pretty good for that. Um,

yeah. So I don't know. I've been enjoying myself out in the herp room and seeing the babies. That's always a fun thing other than the added workload that it brings with it. Got a couple of reptile shows. Hopefully I can. Yeah. When's your, what's next show? Utah. And then I'm trying to decide, I don't know if I've got, I may, may look around and see if somebody wants to share some space on, well, I'm just going to Tinley for Thursday through Saturday or Wednesday through Saturday. So I'm leaving Saturday night. So I don't know what I'm going to,

I was thinking of just getting home because I got to turn around and head out to Australia like the next week or later that week. I don't want to lose a whole weekend. So I'm going to skip Sunday and come home and be with my family anyway. But yeah, I was thinking having some, somebody share a table with me, but then I'd have, you want to deal with animals on top of all of that extra travel. You'll regret that uh you'll regret that

you'll regret that animals back yeah it would be kind of pain i mean i did that last time i went to the gecko symposium and tinley last time and and you know sold quite a few animals so it was a good good deal but yeah maybe it's worth it yeah i don't know so I think they're doing like a little animal swap at the gecko symposium. So I don't know. Get your tickets if you haven't gotten them yet. You listeners out there that are interested in geckos or reptiles in general, it's always cool to learn about different groups, I think. See the applications you can have to your own stuff that you're interested in.

But yeah, it should be fun. I probably won't be bringing animals to that show. So. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't, I don't think I would.

All right. Well, anything else you want to ramble about? Are we ready to fight? No, let's move on to the reason we are here. Okay. What brings us together?

So, yeah, we've got a topic to fight about. We got a listener from Australia, Jameson Brody. He recommended a topic. I'm assuming he... Are there girls named Jameson Brody, he recommended a topic. I'm assuming he, I get, I get, are there girls named Jameson? I think, I'm pretty sure it's a guy, right? Anyway, what's the difference between a

herpetologist and a herpetoculturalist? Is there, you know, can you cross the line over from herpetoculture into herpetology? Or I imagine vice versa probably wouldn't be much of an issue. But so, yeah, we'll talk about that, I suppose. I think it was kind of brought up in the context of, you know, he's a zookeeper. And so, you know, when you're a zookeeper, you might be involved with different conservation efforts or studies to, you know, better understand the animals. And if you're not a degreed herpetologist, does that kind of experience bring you into the herpetologist realm? So that's kind of what we're going to be talking about today.

So let's go ahead and do a little coin toss. Give it a call there. Heads. It's tails. You have lost, my friend. So, let's see. I guess let's phrase the topic. Can you become...

Now, I should have thought about this a little better before we Hit record but Can you Cross over from herpetoculture To herpetology do we want to phrase it like that Sure Okay Then I guess I would go with

I think it's Possible I think there's a way to To make that cross. So you would be, no, you can't do that. There's a strict policy for becoming a herpetologist, and this is the only way. Got it. All right. Well, if you've got it, go ahead and start us out as the loser of the coin toss. Ah, well, I will start out by pointing out the obvious that you're not a herpetologist until you get a good degree in herpetology.

So no degree, no name, no way, no how. You can play herpetologist, but you can't be one in real life because that is an academic degree. Now, if you don't have the academic degree, by definition, you are not. So if you what degree are you talking about? What degree do you need to be called a herpetologist? Is it a PhD? Is it a master's? Is it a bachelor's?

Is it an associate's? What degree do you need? Well, so I guess you could call yourself a herpetologist if you get a degree in herpetology. So if you had a bachelor's in herpetology, if they offered that, or if you do a master's program or you do graduate work and you become a professor, I would say all of those come with a piece of paper that either say something, something, something,

doctor, mister, herpetologist, right? Okay. Okay. I see where you're coming from i i know of course you know there's just a solid wall of like there's just a solid wall of this is how that works right like right well i i guess i would maybe uh counter that with uh so um there's a researcher a virologist right and i believe i mean yeah i guess he probably has a bachelor's, but he's kind of older, older guy. So he came up and he has he doesn't have a Ph.D. OK. And so but, you know, still directs research and does a lot of cool studies and things like that. So he's he's definitely a virologist. So, and, you know, this day and age, like I think you'd be hard pressed to do herpetology research or at least direct herpetology research unless you have a PhD. You know, very few universities or labs or whatever are going to hire you.

But what about like venom extraction labs or things like that? Like, you know, where you don't necessarily need a degree a lot of it's on the job training or or learning on the job kind of things i don't know that there's anybody teaching you how to be it would you consider those guys herpetologists okay well i think we need to back up and define what herpetology is then well i mean just speaking, herpetology is the study of reptiles and amphibians. So if you're studying reptiles and amphibians in any way, you would probably be considered a herpetologist, even if you don't necessarily have a degree in herpetology. So I guess that would... So anybody... Okay. All right. So what does it mean to study? So anybody and their half-assery idea of what science is could just go off and be a herpetologist is what you're saying.

That's what you're trying to reduce this to. You know, you pretty much disrespected my whole like there's a piece of paper and a lot of work that goes into that, you know. No, no, no. You pooped on it no you got that point you got that point you got it i know and then you proceeded to poop on it but i'm just saying is there an alternative that's the whole question right and i think i think you probably could say yeah like and and maybe a venom lab or like a you know a zoo or like kind of like our. But I don't think that even zookeepers would. I don't think Steve would be like, I'm a herpetologist.

I don't think so. Well, and that's the hard thing is like, when do you call it? Like, would I be a herpetologist? You know, writing books. No, you're an author if you write books. The area of herpetology that requires maybe some studies or some data collection or, you know what I mean? Well, okay. Like what?

Why did? Okay, we'll go back. I don't know if I can say this. I hope I can say this. Yeah. Remember Dave Barker gave you a suggestion about not putting something in your book? What was that? Do you remember?

Oh, my PhD? Yes. Yeah. And why did he say that? He said, because you don't have a phd in herpetology right and it might confuse somebody to think that you're a doctor in herpetology right yeah right so i mean it kind of really it it really implies to me at least that hey man dave barker looks at it very very strict of like hey if you you know this is a a discipline of study and a path of learning if you have not engaged in that study

or that path of learning academically you don't get to call yourself that right right or wrong and i could for the other side of this i totally get why people are like yeah fuck academics they're assholes because of that kind of a mentality of like nope you can't call yourself that because you didn't do our thing right like i get that part but yeah but i i think in this you know, what's wrong with being does everybody have to be a herpetologist or can we be herpetoculturalists? Like, can we just be OK with the fact that we don't we didn't go get the professional degree and that we're not professionals at this? And I was throwing air quotes up in case anybody oh yeah well many herpetologists even you know by their own admission like uh rick shine you know he's like i'm i'm not cut out to really keep these things in captivity i he admitted like he didn't do so great at that and yeah

kind of stopped doing it you know and so you know i don't i don't know that that's necessary like i think people see it as that, like, oh, you're not a herpetologist, you're a lowly herpetoculturalist, but you know, I think that takes skill and learning and absolutely. I mean, yeah. So you just, so I would argue like the herpetoculturalist is the keeper is the venom extractor is, you know, the person who is the blue collar of reptiles has the hands-on knowledge is actually a great source of knowledge in working with these animals because of all the experience that they have, if that gets tapped, but often it doesn't get tapped because academia doesn't want to, or, you know, professional like AZA accreditations don't want to kind of, you know, go over there. Right. Sure. I mean,

I guess, you know, you're, you're looking at a, like a career herpetologist. What I'm saying is, can you be a hobby herpetologist? Like, so if I spend my time, that's what I'm saying. Like, so if, if I do all the things that herpetologist does, but I don't have a degree, but I'm, I'm out in the field collecting data, I'm publishing papers, I'm writing books, I'm doing these things that a herpetologist does, but I don't have a degree. So I can't be a herpetologist. I don't buy that. I think, I think you could, you could definitely be a herpetologist. I don't buy that. I think, I think you could, you could definitely be a herpetologist if you're doing the things that herpetologist does just because you don't have a degree or you're not working at a university or you don't have funding to do that research.

If you're self-funding, it's still herpetology. You're still studying reptiles and amphibians and, and disseminating that information. That's, that's all a herpetologist is. I don't think there's anywhere written that says we will not hire you unless you have a degree. I think it's strongly, you know, recommended, but I mean, if you, if you spent your whole life studying things kind of as a hobby and you were a lawyer say, but you spent a lot of time out in the field and you published papers and wrote books and then you said, nah, I want to change it up. I'm 55. I'm going to go be a herpetologist for 10 years. I imagine with that, like, you know, you say either a degree in herpetology, a PhD in herpetology or 20 years experience. You've got that 20 years experience. You can go get a job as a herpetologist, you know, get paid to be a

herpetologist. I mean, I still think you can be a hobby herpetologist, you know, if you're doing the things a herpetologist does. Hoser sure is a taxonomist. You're so right, dude. He is attempting to do a taxonomy, right? And he's got some fair points in some areas, but, you know, this is the mark on a lot of areas listen so i think and and professional herpetologists do that too like they they do stuff like call stimson's pythons children's pythons and everybody buys into it because they have a phd or whatever you know but all right i'm not saying i don't i. I don't think using the worst example of a taxonomist goes against what I'm saying. You can have good and bad in hobby herpetologists.

Do I think that you can sit there in your house and be like, I'm a fucking herpetologist. If you want to. Sure. If you want to publish papers, they could be crap. They they you know, it could be all nonsense. And if that's what you want to call yourself. Sure. That's fine.

But nobody else in that community, unless you're really publishing, you know. Yeah. Into like if you're doing publishing into legit stuff. I could see a case for that. I could see a case for that. That said, you know, you're still...

I guess when do you cross that line? Well, and I don't know. I don't know how... Do you have to have recognition of people? I don't know how your peers would view you, your professional peers would view you. I guess maybe one measure could be like if you say, you know, like the IHS, the International Herpetological Symposium. People go there. They don't necessarily have a degree in herpetology, but they've been doing research.

And I think somebody just was posting about that. Oh, golly, he works with Acrocortis, the file snakes. Oh, golly, why is his name escaping me? Of course his name's escaping me. All names escape my brain. So anyway, he posted his, you know, he gave a talk at the IHS meeting on the file snakes, right? And I believe it's mostly based on, oh, Mike. Mike.

Mike. Anyway, his research is mostly based on captive husbandry and keeping and things like that. But he gets out in the field. He goes and sees stuff. He had a show on Behind the Glass or whatever that was. Did you ever see that show? It's pretty cool. Cool concept.

Mike Clarkson. That's his name, right? Anyway, I'm pretty sure that was him that did that show, too. But, you know, so he showed or kind of went out and found stuff in the wild and showed how the temperatures it was experiencing. Dave Kaufman did a similar thing, too, to that. Yeah. Where he'd take temperatures and show their habitat and kind of watch them, what they're doing and where they're going, that kind of thing. So pretty cool.

Anyway, he spoke at IHS. I don't know. Would that be a step towards being a herpetologist? If if you're being recognized as, you know, having worthy information to present at a herpetological conference. And I don't know if that's strictly academic conference, if academics attend or whatnot. What about a zoo that's like breeding a rare species. And they go to like, uh, your buddy, our buddy, Brett Baldwin, you know, looking at Ethiopian, uh, mountain vipers, the bidus parviacula. Um, he gave a talk on those and, and, you know, showed habitat,

showed, you know, their incubation and all that kind of stuff. And pretty cool, you know? Yeah. Is he a herpetologist or is he just a zookeeper, you know, herpetoculturalist? Well, I think he's retired now. Is he? I would say he's a zookeeper. I don't know if he has a degree or anything like that. But what is a zookeeper?

Is it a herpetologist or a herpetoculturalist? You know, where do you draw the line? I would say it's dependent on if you're doing research and disseminating that information you you i would say a zookeeper is a zookeeper if you want to shove them into that square round or triangular peg you're trying to plug everybody through then you can call them whatever you want but again i'll go back to my de facto it's a degree it's it's well it's an area i mean steve got his degree and he got a bs in in herpetology or that area but i thought it was it was behavioral animal behavioral science or something like that.

Okay. Well, a lot of these people who are publishing papers on reptiles. Did you just try to bullshit me? I thought it was in the herpetology. That's what he was interested in. Maybe they didn't have a degree in herpetology. They didn't. So I guess that's the question.

Do you have to get a degree in herpetology to do herpetological research and i think uh there's a lot of good examples of that i mean if you're studying evolution you might you might study a group of reptiles but does that make you an evolutionary biologist or but didn't you tell me didn't you just tell me that nobody's gonna give you money unless you have a degree in herpetology as a doctorate to do research? Or if you self-fund the research. Okay. Well, no. I mean people do that. Like they go out in the field or they go into the museum and look at preserved specimens.

They do similar work to what a herpetologist would do. So I don't know. I think about Frank Reedy's. He's out in the field all the time watching desert iguanas, you know, and sharing his observations. He's not publishing papers necessarily. And so I don't know. But I mean, he's definitely a field biologist or, you know, in that realm. So I don't know. Does he have a degree. So, I don't know. Does he have a degree in biology? I don't believe so. I mean.

And, you know, he's publishing with other people. Like he's out there with, you know, other field biologists or ethologists or whatever. Yeah. Whoever he's hanging out with. And but, you know, he's he's making a scientific contribution to those papers. It's not like he's just kind of tacking his name on there. You know what I mean? where anybody can identify as anything they want and i think if you want to identify as a herpetologist people you just go ahead take you to that do it you do it i see how you're playing this oh man oh boy you you california the coastal elites in your ivory towers keeping people out of herpetology the ivory tower is open and people are leaving at their leisure here get out i don't need you in my ivory tower they're all coming here huh yeah to yours or at least we're the ones who

complain about it the most uh no no i i uh i would have to say if you're, if you are doing herpetological research, you are a herpetologist. And I think that's kind of what would define when you cross the line. Like if you're at a zoo and you're, you know, just taking care of animals and making sure they're happy and thriving and being good display animals i would say you're probably not crossing that herpetology line right what about somebody what about somebody who's like going to school and they haven't got their degree yet but they're doing research and somebody comes up to them and they're like hey what do you do would they be like oh i'm a herpetologist or would they say oh i'm a research student yeah right they would say i'm a research

herpetologist no they wouldn't they'd say i'm a fucking research student because they don't have a goddamn piece of paper yet so i'd say oh you you study reptiles and amphibians and they would say yeah that's what i'm doing that's what i do i study reptiles and amphibians no i'm a herpetologist. No. Man, I don't know. Guys in your papers. You can identify as anything you want. Just because you got a degree. I'm just saying. You can't afford that.

Listen, this isn't me making this stuff up. You either go to a school that has a program to get the degree or you self-assign yourself as that thing and you move on with your life okay so you can't gain expertise unless you have a degree that's not what i said well i mean that's 100 not I said. Knowing about reptiles and studying reptiles. Yep. So you don't need a degree to do that. You don't need a degree to do that. You don't.

So you can be a herpetologist without a degree. No, you could be a research student. What about people back in the Middle Ages or whatever, you know, that were studying things? They didn't really have... Yeah, but they didn't have a dumb naming system where they were like, oh, you must address me as a herpetologist now. They just studied stuff. Yeah, and they would have been considered early herpetologists, right? If they knew about that kind of stuff, but they didn't.

They just studied stuff and they weren't so hung up on the naming of everything oh man no that was the big that was when it was big right right back then 18 well well they would just name stuff that's what i'm saying 1800s that's yeah naming stuff like yeah they weren't fighting over whether they were just tax on this person deserved to be this name or not. Now we're trying to parse the names out. That's another fun fight is if you should name things after people or not. Because a lot of those are problematic these days.

I don't know, the guys on the other podcast. Oh, man. Okay. I don't even start these sentences without. The. The British guys that talk about studies and stuff. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. God damn it.

You had to say it like that. Now I forgot the name of it. It's so easy. It's so easy. It's so easy to remember these things, isn't it? Shut up. I shall not take ridicule about a name from you, sir. Cryptological highlights. That's what I was going to say right before you, right after you said it.

Right after you said it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah yeah but uh you know i i don't know i think i mean don't but but don't you you're stepping on my dreams man i want to be a herpetologist without so but yeah but but but don't you feel like there's like this. So you have an institution of learning that has a curriculum knowledgeable about scientific method and doing research on their own can't make a contribution, but it's not the same thing as going through somebody else's program. You're doing the research you want to do the way you want to do it, publishing it, whatever. Cool. Got it. But I think, I think that it would be offensive to everybody who actually went through a program of study and had to go through all of this stuff if it was just like, oh, yeah, you have to either do this or you can kind of do whatever you want and just publish it and you can call yourself a herpetologist. Isn't that just know what i mean

like oh i agree it is 100 100 is it 100 is but people invested money time and energy and it's a career for them it's a life path and to have to have it to be like oh well you could do that or you know you can do your own thing whatever whatever you want, and just do it. And that's your – and fine. You get to figure out how to make that living or whatever. You know, if you can do it, so fine, so be it. I'm just saying that I – you know, I don't know. Like, I think if I just saw people who were like, yeah, I read the last IPCC report and I've been watching the weather and I read a textbook on climate. I'm an environmental scientist. I'd be like, the fuck you are.

Explain to me what makes you an environmental scientist in that standpoint how are you oh well i do research well what do you research oh i'm collecting temperature data in my area okay well how are you you know how are you contributing to greater climate research with that right like how are you and i guess what i'm saying is if you are contributing to greater research in the purview of academia coupled to that, you know, I guess I could, I guess I could say, yeah, you know what, that's fair. And even as if I were a herpetologist, I would accept that person, but just to be, you know, just to let anybody say they're a herpetologist without kind of that level of participation in the field. I don't know, man. I just don't think that would sit with me.

Like, again, I don't care. I'm a Californian. Do whatever you want. Identify however you want. But, you know, I'm just saying like somebody from that field, I don't know how they would feel about that. Yeah. I mean, granted, you know, let's let's bring up a, you know, a fun little farcical example. Let's Goodwill Hunting, right? He's he's he's a he's a genius that studies stuff on his own time. You know, he understands everything. He can do math or whatever. So his own time. He understands everything. He can do math or whatever. So he writes on the board at Harvard. Sorry, spoiler alert if you haven't seen the movie.

I feel like you haven't seen it by now. Your ship has sailed. Great show. You're going to love us when you figure out that we ruined it for you yeah and so uh you know he's discovered by one of the professors there and and he gets offered all these jobs right i imagine in the real world like that might you know that might not happen that way but again if you if you're a bona fide genius you're you're schooling this mathematician you know professor in math and you're schooling him with your you know the the learning that you've done kind of on your own as a hobby yeah but you're using rain man

as your example but like not everybody's fucking rain man i'm just saying goodwill hunting goes into the herpetology lab and you know i get it write some theory on the board he just changed her pathology you know like so i guess what i'm saying is you know yeah granted that's a funny example and and and you know maybe it wouldn't happen but you know you never know and and i think to exclude those people just because they don't have the paper you know, would maybe be a misstep and maybe would not allow those useful contributions to science. But hold on. With the things they can do. And to say, oh, no, no, no.

To be fair. You have to go back and get your degree or whatever, you know. People are going to recognize this is brilliant. So I'm going to, you know, give them a job or fund them or whatever because they know the subject. They don't necessarily. I think there's some bypasses for that degree. You know what I mean? I guess that's what I'm saying.

Well, so, I mean, they'll fund them if they think the research is going to go somewhere. Sure, sure. Right. And I mean, again, that's that's probably one in a million or billion people that go into it. And they'll support them as long as they're – I think if you have the ideas and you have a track record showing, yeah, he can do this stuff. He can do this research and he can carry it out and he can publish papers or whatever. You'll probably get funded even if you may not have the degree. I don't know.

Maybe it would be a much harder road for sure. Oh, I definitely think it. the the kind of force that academia plays on you know kind of the wall of academia you know you kind of understand what i mean by that but it's it's like you know i i i i really feel like it that there is this hey if you're not in this if you don't do this you're not this and you're over there you know what i mean and we speak one language and you speak that language and we don't want you to understand what we do you know what i mean like there's very much a like a stay out and that's why i feel like there would be an unacceptance in some you know at some level from academia towards, you know, the, you know, the more,

you know, home, you know, self-made, uh, herpetoculturists. Yeah. Well, and I, again, I think the other way around is very easy kind of herpetoculture is kind of a catch-all for anybody who wants to keep reptiles. And, you you know maybe you could have the same argument for that and be like no you're not a herpetoculturalist unless you've successfully reproduced you know x number of species yeah kept them for 20 you know that kind of thing you know you could probably gatekeep that title as well you know there's not really i guess there may be a degree or two that you can get in, you know, zoo keeping or herpetoculture. You know, I guess an example would be Zach Lofman's program there at Western and things like that. So, you know, I think I mean, but you can get into zoo keeping with a biology degree or, you know, or, or no degree. I mean, if you start zookeeping when you're 15 and,

you know, by the time you're an adult, you've got, you know, 10 years of experience, you're like, yeah, I'm a, I'm a zookeeper, even though I didn't get a degree in it or, you know, it's that experience. And I think that's kind of what I'm suggesting is that you can, you can apply the same to herpetology and say, I've been doing herpetology for 20 years. I'm a herpetologist, even though I didn't get a degree in it. I've been in a lab. I got hired in a lab without a bachelor's and I've been working under Professor Rick Shine and I've been doing research in herpetology for 10, 20 years. I'm a herpetologist. You know, I don't think that's a far stretch to call yourself a herpetologist because you are studying reptiles and amphibians, even if you're not a PhD or a

master's or a bachelor's even. So, but you know, you could go the extreme other way and say, you're not a her, you know, a herpetologist unless you're directing research in a lab and you have a PhD or, you know, at least a master's or something, you know, you could go the other way and be a little more stringent, you know, than you're already being, you know, man, somebody with a bachelor's being a herpetologist. I don't think so. Well, and, and I mean, you know, what is, what is a herpetologist is that, is that, you know, designing, gathering, publishing. I mean, that's all of it, right? You have to be doing so. I think you have to be a bona fide researcher. You have to be contributing and publishing, you know, I, I mean, I think that that's kind of like the mark, right?

You have to be disseminating that information and, you know, I mean, I think that that's kind of like the mark, right? Sure. I mean, you have to be disseminating that information. And, you know, you look at Rick Shine and a lot of studies he did early on in his career were pretty simple. Like he went to museums and it was surprising that nobody thought about this. But he went to museums, got preserved specimens, saw what their diet diet was what their reproductive mode was things like that that people didn't know you know like he published papers published a lot of papers in that regard and then that kind of he built his career on top of those and kept moving forward and and building you know different hypotheses off of the things that he would learn that way

and you know made a probably the most impressive herpetological career of our time you know just but but it's an admittedly horrible um you know herpetoculturalist right like yeah self-admitted right so i mean and i guess i guess this starts to get at me where it's like oh i have to have to – I want to call myself this thing because I look at it as – it's the whole name thing. It's the whole getting into the names and I feel like we take this herpetoculturalist as a negative connotation from each other or from professionals or how, I don't know where it comes from, but, but it always kind of feels like it's said as, as, well, we, you know, we're not, you know, we're not professionals like, or whatever, you know, academics, like it's, it's a, it's a lay person's name or something like that. You know what I mean? And so I, you know, I think,

I think a lot of it is just comes from the wanting to fight, you know, to overcome that, you know, being labeled as, as such. Right. And, and then the whole academic part portion of it where it's like, you know, they have to be the professional name and, you know, naming of stuff. So it's, you know, I again, I think the name's getting in the way of and again, I don't care. Call yourself what you want is how I'm going to end this. But I just get I get what you're saying. And I agree with that. I mean, I think to call yourself a herpetology, if you're not involved in scientific studies, if you're not publishing, you show kind of a naivety.

Yes. Kind of almost a foolishness, like, oh, okay, good job, buddy. Yeah, you can call yourself whatever you want. Yeah, exactly. Call yourself whatever you want, but nobody in that field is going to take you seriously but now conversely if you're you know somebody who's just like very scientifically minded self-trained self-taught and you're doing great research and you're publishing it and you're fantastic i think you'll absolutely be accepted by the shines and, and, you know, the great researchers who recognize your awesome contribution. And I don't think anybody would be

like, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, don't you dare call yourself that? You know what I'm saying? I don't think that's the way anybody would be. I just, but I do think that, that those, those professionals have worked hard enough that they would take offense at somebody using it carte blanche. And, you know, I, I don't know, like what, what stage you actually can start calling yourself a herpetologist. You know, like do you have to have a certain number of papers published or do you have to have a certain amount of work, you know, years in the field? I mean, yeah, if you have to have a certain number of papers published or do you have to have a certain amount of years in the field? I mean, yeah, if you just got your degree, a bachelor's degree, you say, I'm a herpetologist. Well, you know, are you?

You know, now I'm taking your side. But, you know, like it goes hard not to. Yeah. And although I think you can get there by, you know, a non-degree way or, or it's, it's a, it's an uphill battle for sure. It's an uphill battle. And, and I mean, I'm not saying you gotta like suck it up and go get the degree, but gosh, man, if you're doing all this research at some point, aren't you going to start collaborating with those professionals? And like, you know, I mean, I mean, you know, it's. I guess I guess kind of I have maybe hoop dreams of like when I retire, following around rattlesnakes, doing a study, publishing a paper or something, you know, that falls in the realm of herpetology.

And I would be acting as a herpetologist. So I could probably call myself a herpetologist at that point. I've published papers in herpetology journals and, or at least on herpetological subjects, you know, publish books, that kind of thing. I, I can't like people introduce me and say, Oh, he's a herpetologist. And I, I usually correct them and say, well, actually I'm a virologist with an interest in herpetology, but you know, I, I don't call myself a herpetologist, even though I feel like I've made contributions and maybe their contributions to herpetoculture because the books are more focused on learning about them in the wild, but also keeping them. So,

you know, applying, you know, the, the research type stuff to herpetoculture. So maybe I'm a, more of a herpetoculturalist in that regard. And there's no shame in that for sure. And there's no shame in that. There's nothing wrong with that. I, you know, I, I, again, it's, it's just names, you know, and like who you are and what you're doing and your passion. And that's far more significant than what you call yourself yeah you know because i mean herpetology covers a range of subjects you know sure you can be involved with you know just

looking at what's you know if they're egg layers or not you know some of rick shine's papers you know or do they when do they reproduce when is that you know if you're finding this stuff out of species that it's not very well known or you're making observations in the field or you're looking at museum specimens or you're, you know, there's a lot of different aspects like ethology or how they interact with other animals in the field. And that's a lot of what Frank's doing out there in Arizona, you know, looking at desert iguanas and how they interact with zebra-tailed lizards or, you know, or whip snakes or whatever, you know. So I think, you know, you can do a lot of cool things in herpetology and it covers a broad array of things. You know, if you're in a zoo, you look at, you know, maybe you're trying to keep them better or find a way that, you know, others can replicate and keep things alive better

or reproduce bull and I, or something like that, you know, and you publish those papers, if you're disseminating that information, but again, as, as you know, that care and keeping, um, is that fall under herpetoculture? And, and if so, that's why not? That's great. Right. Yeah. It's a great, great title to have and i mean and i think you might be right like um it's just not seen as a professional career you know it's seen as like the blue collar version of a herpetologist and it's just a simple thing yeah what side of that do you want to be on because i know a lot of people who'd rather be on the – I'm a hands-on dude. I'm a blue-collar guy, man. I'm now in a white-collar job. But it's weird for me because my tendencies always go to my blue-collar, get out there, get out with the guys in the plant, go around, make sure – work with them directly at that level. And, you know, I think I prefer that. I think there's probably a lot of, you know, herpetoculturalists who would prefer working with the animals than to doing straight research.

Yeah, for sure. I don't think anybody would be happy doing straight research if you were used to working with animals yeah unless i guess unless you're working with research animals which in which case that's more of a job than than enjoyment and i would argue like i mean maybe in a zoo setting i would say that's more enjoyable but for a research purpose you're really working with that animal strictly for, you know, observational research purposes, data gathering. It's very, you know, it shouldn't be like, it's a clinical thing. You know what I mean? It's not like, you know, I'm not saying you can't garner some satisfaction out of doing it. I'm just saying like, that's not there for your

enjoyment. That's not there for your fun, you know? Yeah. So. Hey, maybe we need to elevate the title of herpetoculturalists, you know, like, like we said, you know, a lot of researchers don't have a very good grasp on how to keep these things in captivity and they, they, the animals die or they languish or they have disease or something, you know, and, and they kind of clueless in some regards. I've heard plenty of herpetoculturalists doing it better than zoos and horticulturalists. Here's my best example of that.

I went into a herpetology lab and they had a shingleback skink that was a confiscation and a blotched blue tongue that was also a confiscation. And they were keeping them in a freaking crate, like a wooden crate without substrate, no lighting, and very small area. And I'm like, really? Like, this is, you know, these amazing animals that somebody tried to smuggle to enjoy, you know, and they got confiscated. And, oh, let's give it to the herpetology lab because they know what they're doing. And they're kept in squalor.

It's like, ah. I was so tempted just to take those things home. Like, give them a good home, you know. Like, it was heartbreaking. And then they died, you know, a few years later. Of course. Really? Like, this is what we're doing, you know?

So, yeah, just because you're a herpetologist. That is an absolute point taken, man. It's very and, you know, listen, I see this and anybody who has worked with and I if you're an engineer, I'm sorry. But, you know, engineers, man, they like are a different breed. Like and they don't you know, I always when I had to work with engineers wanted to take them and physically show them because they get it. They see it on a piece of paper and they get it in their head. But they've never done the actual mechanics of of taking their fucking work apart and putting it back together. So it's like, no, dude, come look, come see. Then they see it and they're like, Oh, that's,

then they get it. You know what I mean? So, you know, I, I, I, that's, I mean, that's, that's again, like a lot of these taxonomists that are taxonomists, not herpetologists, you know, and they are naming things and they're, they're saying these things are related to each other or these things are different. And you're like, have you actually even seen the animal like are you just playing with dna tubes you know do you even know like have you seen them in the wild have you looked at them side by side because they're nothing alike you know they should and that's really

interesting about you know the fact that you know you have herpetologists who aren't taxonomists and taxonomists that aren't herpetologists. Right. But one's naming, you know. Yeah. What it is and doesn't know what I mean. And I guess he has I guess he's educated. Sure. You know, he's the expert in in classification, how to classify. But at the same time, he's not an expert in in classification how to classify but at the same time he's not an expert

in in reptiles right so and i think this is where collaboration comes in yeah i agree great reason to collaborate with somebody who's studied them in the field or knows you know has a good concept of what they're doing in the wild where they're found and i think that's where a lot of herpetoculturalists get frustrated is because they do spend a lot of their time looking at the animals that they enjoy or out in the field, you know, and studying them and learning everything there is to know about them. And then to have some, you know, papered expert come along and just say something ridiculous about them is almost insulting, you know, where, where that, that hobbyist is probably more of a herpetologist than the herpetologist that's studying that animal. Yeah. And I think that's

where the frustration comes out is when you see a, you know, a herpetologist, you know, say, say, or do something that, uh, the, the, the herpetologistulturist says what the fuck you know like that that that just totally adds to the whole like you know yeah why is this what makes this guy special obviously he doesn't know what he's doing you know and in that that goes that's that's true for like zookeepers and herpaculturalists as well where they're like oh they do it for money so they must be you know dirty creepy people professionals you know we do it professionally and we sell them to other zoos and yeah yeah great but at the same time you know like there's there's some weird things that go on at zoos and there's some you know not not great examples of what happens

at zoos too so and i mean you know it's a no nobody should be holding their nose up at somebody else you know there's no it seems like everybody lives in a glass house around here you know what i'm saying you're right you know what i'm saying hey you know i get it like you said there are some people that kind of come in and try to fake it or try to, you know, assume too many heirs or whatever. Like, yeah, I'm a her, you know, I'm a herpetoculturalist or, you know, well, OK, buddy, you know, get more than that one leopard gecko and then we'll see if you're really a herpetoculturalist or not. Yeah. So that's it's tricky. It's a tricky topic. I like this discussion, though. It's kind of a good one. Anything else to add?

I would say regardless of what you want to call yourself, learn about stuff. I mean, if you're keeping something, know where it's from. Know what it does in the wild. Don't just keep it because it's worth some money and you know those kind of things and i mean try to make uh contributions to science i think that's kind of the fun part you know learning about what and and gaining knowledge that maybe isn't widely known and and helping others to learn that too i think uh roy arthur blodge it's a good example of that where he's keeping kind of lesser kept species and he and he's doing these deep dives on like Instagram or, you know, looking or iNaturalist, looking at them in their habitat and looking at the plants they interact with or, you know, maybe seeing a picture of something there where they're drinking out of a bromeliad or whatever, you know, and then incorporating that into his herpetoculture. I think that's a cool example of that. So I think we need more Roy's, you know, in the hobby, uh, uh, doing it that way, um, rather than just keeping them in a

smallest possible box to, to pump out as many as you can. And, and again, there's, there's a place for that too, you know, PetSmart needs to sell snakes too. And so, you know, there's a, there's a need for that farming aspect as well as the more herpetocultural aspect of it. And maybe that's another discussion we can have. Are you a farmer or you're a herpetoculturalist? Is there a difference there? You know, because, Oh my God, I'm living in a naming nightmare. Oh my God. Chuck hates labels. He's been labeled too many horrible things in his life.

He needs to shed those labels. All right, elevate herpetoculture and the term. And, you know, I mean, that term came from the man himself, Philippe, you know, and I think he intended it with that aspect of like, this is an important area of herpetology, herpetoculture. We need to take care of these things, learn how to take care of them in captivity because people are going to keep them, you know, and we could go back 30 years and see how people are keeping them and say, are we improving on that? Or is it worse? You know, you look at the cat house of the zoo, you know, 30 years ago and compare it to the cat house of the zoo today. You know, is it the same thing? Not so much. Back when I was a kid and we'd go to the zoo, the cat house was like these jail cells, you know, like so you had a good diversity because you could see 30 big cats in a day.

But all they were is just pacing back and forth in these jail cells, basically, that had maybe a log in them or something. And now you go to the zoo and it's like this expansive field and rocks and streams flowing through and trees to climb. And you're like, OK, that's a, that's much better. Could it be better than that? Probably, but that's a good step in the right direction. But if you're, if you're trying to pump out tigers, is that a better way to do it? I don't know. Maybe not. Maybe the jail cells a bit. I don't know.

That's an easier way to produce a lot of tigers. Look at Tiger King. You know, I don't know. Maybe we won't go there. Yeah. Yeah. Probably shouldn't. Well, we got fired up on this one. This was a good topic.

Yeah. To talk about. And I think it's, you know, people have feelings involved with this, you know, where they're told, no, you're not this because you don't do this or you don't have the paper. You are to this or that. You know, I think just just do it. You know, get out there and do what you love. And yeah, who cares about the label? I don't know.

That's the main thing. Do what you love. All right. Well, all right. Good stuff. What else you got? Any that's it. Reptile news lately. You know me. Well, good stuff. What else you got? That's it.

Any cool reptile news lately? You know me. I'm not Mr. Reptile News. Yeah, I got a nice little package in the mail the other day. What? Yeah, from our good friend, Mr. Bobby Pebbles. Oh, nice. What did he send you?

He sent me a book full of cool books on Native American stuff. He sent you a book full of books? on native american he sent you a book full of books a box full of books a box full of books yeah four or five books nice yeah i think i mentioned in a phone conversation the other day that i was really into that kind of stuff you know what a guy dude that's nice yeah it's really cool so i'm excited to dive into those and start start a little reading i i'm not the best reader like i i've been doing more audiobooks than or podcasts which is kind of the uh okay so i'm going to try not to insult you and ask this you mean like you just like you you go to lay down and rather than read you fall asleep or you just literally like or i'll listen to an audio book or no i i see you don't like reading but i i guess maybe i do a lot for work and so it's like then i like i probably should work on it yeah well i probably should want to read something like this that's kind of off topic that gets my mind on something else.

I just need to not be such a lazy reader. I need to read more. Gotcha. So it's just nice. Audiobook's nice. You can just kind of disengage and just listen. Close your eyes, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Exactly. Okay, okay. But hey, I need to read more. I keep buying books, too. I mean, my wife would agree to, I need to read more. I've got, I keep buying books too. I mean, my wife, my wife would agree with you. You should read more. Yeah. And my wife would too.

She read like, well, she does audio books too. So she listened to or read like, yeah, she did like a hundred plus books last year. 120 something. Yeah. Nice. My wife is on fire when it comes to that's good yeah that's how my wife is too yep but being well read is a good thing to to be so i need to even if it's all audiobooks yeah somebody read that book for you yeah but there's no pictures

in audiobooks i like a good picture yeah but mean, isn't that the pictures in your mind? True That's what a book is, right? Yeah Even if it's read by Morgan Freeman or Lesser There you go Yeah, sometimes they're not even famous, right? Morgan Freeman, Morgan Freeman

All right Thanks again to Mutton's choice gloves yeah if you're power lifting gloves don't forget power lifting gloves they're just gloves unless you say power lifting and uh yeah if you got anything else in your mouth spit it out only ingest the finest mutton's choice powerlifting gloves uh i think i'm i thought you i thought you were i thought you were gonna make a plug for uh mutton powerlifting creatine or like mutton powerlifting whey protein no the gloves are made of creatine and oh my god edible gloves yeah you just eat the gloves like after your workout you just you just eat the gloves right off that's that's the that's the beauty of the mutton's choice yeah that's the beauty of the mutton's choice of course it is

it'll be good to hang out with old Nick in a few weeks here. You guys should have fun. You guys should have fun. That'll be fun. You're going to make him take you for a... To experience the OG. I guess you guys are going to meet at 10 that he won't be bringing the vet. No, this will be a carpet fest.

He's going to a carpet fest. Yeah, but still not bringing the vet. There's rumors to that, but yeah, I'm not sure but at least i still not bringing the rumors to that but yeah i'm not sure if he's still not bringing the vet no no hopefully yeah i'm sure unless you once along cross country him and ryan could delman louise it across the cross america fucking awesome that would be super awesome getting chased by the cops. I totally want to see that. Yeah. I think Photoshop might be in order for this.

Ryan, let's make that happen. Come on. Come on, Ryan. I'll get a picture of him holding hands at Carpet Fest and we'll stick him in a... We'll just make that shit happen. Yeah. Have it going over a cliff. That'll be good stuff.

If Owen can be a scholarly wookie, those motherfuckers can be Thelma and Louise for sure! Alright, well yeah. Attend Carpet Fest. We only have a few more weeks until it's happening. Wish my co-hosts were coming

along. That'd be good. I know. What do you do? You do, you do. But it should be a good time i'm excited to experience the og festival of the carpets it should be good times i found out do not expect them to have t-shirts there for sale buy your shirt before you come because they're on teespring store not gotcha i got in trouble i was on there uh on the chat on their youtube live cast or whenever they record last week sometime well when is now you know like whenever you're listening to this might be uh far along after uh eric and owen discussed carpet fest but i asked hey can we purchase shirts there and because i didn't hear

what they said they were they're on teespring and no one's like oh i'm a doctor wants something special oh we'll have one and eric's like no dude i'll buy you one and i'll have it there you know he's like oh nice owens all ripping on me yeah, we can tell where the love comes from. That's right. The podfather is the, yeah. But I told you. I bought mine on Teespring. It's getting shipped. I'll have mine.

If you were all hairy like a Wookiee, you would be grumpy, too. When you're part Wookiee, that's, you know, trying to hide it from the world. That's right. Yeah, you would be grumpy so now it'll be good to see the guys hang out i get a travel with rob so that'll be fun to you know hang out with him again and go uh herp out in pennsylvania herping out hoping to add a couple species to the life list nice um yeah it should be a good time. I'm looking forward to seeing some old friends and putting some faces to names, if I can remember names. I was going to say,

putting some faces to, I'll see some faces. I'll see some faces. Yeah. Some faces. And then I'll probably forget the names that go with those faces. And then I'll be a jerk. Like, introduce yourself and then I'll promptly forget the names that go with those faces. And then I'll be a jerk. Like introduce yourself and then I'll forget. Yeah, that's me. That's the way it goes. I have to like,

like after somebody says their name, I have to like sit there and go, okay. Yeah. Oh, I do. So I do that. I do that.

Yeah. Then I forget it. And then I never forget it after I have to be like hey dude what's your name i'm really sorry i know you just told me your name what was it one more time yeah bob got it i'll never forget and i i don't after that after i embarrass myself and i have to ask once the embarrassment's there yeah yeah i never forget it i don't know why my brain can't make the transition to asshole just remember it this time so you don't have to ask forget it i don't know why my brain can't make the transition to asshole just remember it this time so you don't have to ask next time i don't know why it can't make that

small pivot but it seems to not be able to doesn't happen yeah it's a conundrum i guess maybe that's age too i don't know maybe it's brain damage never yeah never never could remember names through heidi's great at it. She remembers names. That is why you two complete each other. That's why we're a good couple. That's right. Yep. Well, anything else we need to talk about? We mentioned the Gecko Symposium at Tinley in October. Get your tickets.

Carpet Fest, August 12th for Carpet Fest. Be there. Don't buy your shirts there 12th for Carpet Fest. Be there. Don't buy your shirts there, though. Don't expect a shirt there. Don't do that. Unless you're special like me and get special treatment. Unless you're special, yep. That's right. And if you need special treatment, you got to go to Owen for it.

Yeah, there you go. Owen gives all the special treatment at Carpet Fest. Oh, I guess maybe I can't talk about that. Never mind. Don't talk about that. What? Yeah, Carpet Fest. Oh, I guess maybe I can't talk about that. Never mind. Don't talk about that. What? Yeah, Carpet. Can you talk about that with me?

Really? Python's Radio is getting a new podcast. That's all I'll leave it at. Are Mutton and Lucas finally publishing? Oh, no, no. Oh, my God. That's an old podcast. Is that going to happen?

I don't know. I don't know the mind of mutton yeah what is he like lucas said they have a few trying to build back tension now he's like i don't know we'll just we'll just make it so mysterious he told me out of nowhere he told me he wanted to have like five or six episodes in the can before he released one so he wouldn't like make a big deal like here's the pot but they already put out the little teaser and they already said they were doing it so it's like well the it's kind of out of the bag already and everybody's just getting impatient or like come on dude just release the

thing you know so i don't know one of those things so hopefully we'll hear some mutton and lucas podcasts here soon but i'm not holding my breath but it's another one it's not that one it's a different one come on release from some release the audio i can't i can't i i'm just gonna do a little spoiler for everybody no it's not a spoiler teaser i'm teasing you all i'm i'm a herpetoculturalist not a herpetologist so yeah listen for uh the podfather to uh make an announcement at some point i suppose he'll get the word out i'm sure he did announce it in the chat so you can go check it out there aren't you in the chat chuck yeah but i think my notifications were going crazy so i turned them off so like i'll pop into the chat every once no dude i i'm telling you like i am

disengaging majorly with social media stuff so get off yeah i know no, it's not like that. It's not like that. It's just I just. I'm leaving. I just don't draw a lot of like satisfaction out of it anymore. You know, I like what I like. I have what I like. I'm doing what I like and I'm good, you know, like. So no, I don't know. As long as you don't make the announcement, I'm leaving Facebook and then come back a week later.

So what's going on, guys? What's new? So after a much long hiatus, I'm back. So I'll be going through my emails. And if I don't get you right away, I will soon. I think it's a good sign of a sound mind to leave social media. Probably pretty frequently. So that probably shows, yeah, I'm not the best.

I just don't engage with it. I like pretty pictures of snakes, so Instagram suits me well. I do. pretty pictures of snakes so instagram suits me well yep and i do i i scroll instagram a lot but i don't like you know facebook or you know just i just don't do like a lively discussion but they usually devolve so quickly you don't get much out of them yeah yeah it's kind of tricky i do like a lot of this anyway oh speaking of which visit the Morelia Pythons radio website then you can see all the cool

podcasts they have and what a great network all of them well I don't know about all of them

so I guess we'll see when Eric and Owen will make that announcement should be a good one should be a cool one. Yeah.

So. All right. Well, I guess we're out. Anything else to announce? Nope. Okay. Thanks for listening and hope you enjoyed this little discussion on Reptile Fight Club. I have nothing to give you all.

Good night. Thank you. Outro Music