Reptile Fight Club - Are Reptile Shows Important? w/ Myles Pickett

Episode Date: August 28, 2022

In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the question, "Are Reptile Shows Important?" w/ Myles Pickett        Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to the MBR Network. All right, welcome to another episode of Reptile Fight Club. I'm your host, Justin Doolander, and here he is in the flesh. Well, for me anyway, I can see him. Chuck Poland. Yes, thankfully I'm wearing my flesh today. Yeah, it's weird when he takes off his flesh. Fleshless is not a good look for me. Bone and muscle, it's creepy. It's au de naturel.

Okay, that was a great intro. That was a horrible intro. Good way to come in. I'm a little out of it. Sorry. Yeah, it was a, I couldn't sleep in this morning and took my wife in for a quick surgery this afternoon. And so we're running a little bit behind schedule. So I'm not maybe firing on all cylinders. Justin is au de unnatural. You've heard my wife on the show. If you've listened to previous episodes, she's a great woman. She's like, go record your podcast. I'm like, okay. Yeah, so she wants the show to go on. Wait, so you scheduled a podcast when your wife had a surgery?

Yeah, rub it in, dude. What kind of a husband are you? Oh, man. She must be a wonderful woman to put up with that crap. She definitely is. Yeah, I'm a terrible person. But what do you do? All right, and today we're joined by Miles Pickett.

Thanks for being here, Miles. And we're excited to get your topic on and fight about it. So thanks for coming on. Yeah, so I don't know what's going on in the the reptile world i guess a lot of a lot of people going to daytona last weekend that's that looked like a good time looked like uh i think bob put in a one of the more complete carpet python books for auction somebody's walking around with your book yeah yeah they they sent pictures of everybody checking it out i'm like where'd they get that like i yeah but i should have figured bob had one and it's his show so why wouldn't they have one in Yeah, they sent pictures of everybody checking it out. I'm like, where'd they get that?

But I should have figured Bob had one, and it's his show, so why wouldn't they have one in there in the auction? Yeah. Somebody's got it. Looks like a good time at Daytona. Sounded like it was a good show. Yeah, yeah. Saw lots of people posting pictures.

Yeah, would have been fun to go. I mean, there were a lot of cool people there yep keith keith mcpeak uh jordan parrot had a boot yeah it would have been seen um looked like a really good show yeah the uh i think the uh herpetoculture network guys put out a podcast uh oh i saw that i saw that yeah yeah or they were live just a couple hours ago so yeah yeah i saw that. I saw that. Yeah. Yeah. Or they were live just a couple hours ago. So yeah. Yeah. I saw that for, it was a, like a live from or live. Yeah. Now you'll know how this is. Yeah. Now you know this is recorded cause you'll hear it in a couple of weeks. You'll be like, that was two weeks ago, dude.

Well, and I think our last podcast, we, we had a couple of episodes and they got flipped. So, Oh yeah. This'll be even down the road because um there you go we had uh um oh my gosh oh dr zach on so it was like yeah that was uh so anybody who hears that out of order yes you are not imagining things yeah you're gonna hear us talk about zach like it was the things that hadn't happened yet but i forgot to specify which one needed to be released first, but what do you do?

That's our fault for not numbering our episodes. There you go. But we figured we probably ought to get 100 in before we start numbering, especially because NPR has got 500 on us. 500, that's crazy. Yeah, we're not even to 100 yet, are we? I don't know i've lost track like i lost where we were we little lucas's compared to that when was our year that was in

was that in may it was in may yeah it was in may like and now we're already august that's crazy right time just doesn't slow down does it no it does not especially when you get older faster when you're old you're gonna grow faster and you're age more and yes time speeds up yeah how old are you miles i'm uh let me count 33 33 okay nice we got you by a few years yeah and am i am i older than you chuck are you i am 47 so oh yeah you're older yeah yeah i'm way i'll older. I'll be 46 in September. Oh, okay. Only a year, right? Yeah, and not by much.

A year and a half. A year and a half, you're senior. I mean, I look a lot younger than you, but I'm not. I'm not that much younger than you. Yeah, okay. All right. I mean, you're probably better looking, though. That's there.

Is that good? I feel like I've, I feel like I've piled on between between bagging you out because your, your commitments to the show. You're going at me hard today. Yeah. And we've got a guest on man. I'm, you know, I'm not going to get a, I'm not going to get my one-on-one time beating up the doctor. Hey, we can beat everybody up today. It's all good. Yeah. Free for all. What are those free for alls? Battle Royale.

Yeah, there you go. Yeah, I've seen a few friends on Facebook, and I'm like, man, there's some people looking old out there. Yeah. But others, you look at them and you're like, man, they look exactly the same as they did in high school or look better. You know, it's crazy yeah i i feel like i for a long time i held my age but i'm i'm starting to starting to feel old now yeah i feel the same way wrinkles under the eyes and getting the gray bottle the water when i get my when i get when they fit when the the hairstylist fades me up dude It's just nothing but gray hair on the freaking smock.

I'm like, thanks. At least you have hair to cut, man. I balded at 18. And you know what? That's exactly what my hairstylist says because I'm like, my hair is too thick, blah, blah, blah. She's like, shut up, dude. You have hair, which men your age would kill for.

And I'm like, true that. You're right. I'm not being a good person right now. Shut the fuck up. Yeah, my girlfriend of 12 years is Eastern European in descent. So her hairline, she has a three head. You know what I'm saying? And she complains about it.

I'm like, don't complain. Yeah, my wife has really good hair, really thick hair. Mine's pretty thin. I might as well be bald in some. But, yeah, it's pretty thin on top. But I don't know. I can't complain. Yeah.

Yeah. All right, enough about hair. Yeah. But what else is going on? Daytona looked fun. I don't know. What was there? Again, the THN.

THP? Yeah. THP. The Herpetoculture Network. Yeah, THP. Oh, sorry. Schmitty and Phil had the boa, old school boa guy. What's his name again?

Pete Call? Pete Call. Oh, man, that was an awesome episode that was crazy i'm like i don't think i could have handled the good old days man that guy is i kind of liked it man i think there's a lot of people that share that i'm kind of a you know nerdy prude or something but i i'm like oh man i yeah we're recording over here i don't care they they're in the call i guess they yeah don't talk about my party buddy pete yeah they didn't like that disrespect. Yeah, that's right. It was my bad there. I shouldn't have riled up the dogs by saying Pete Call wasn't my speed, I guess. But, yeah, it was really interesting to hear all the stories. Justin likes Pete Call, dude.

Chill out. God. Still going. It was interesting to hear. He's got a bit of a limited vocabulary oh i'd say his vocabulary is pretty profound i believe the word was profane but yes there you go there you go you really reminded me of the dude though i thought like i kept thinking the whole time i was having a big sweater on yeah it was good but yeah i enjoyed listening to it anyway yeah you do not have the

vocabulary of a sailor justin you do not i unfortunately do and i apologize if it uh gets a little too seaworthy that's all right you're in good company with chuck he little too seaworthy. That's all right. You're in good company with Chuck. He's a seaworthy fellow as well. I am a line handler, and I'm untying the boat now. It's fine. We're good, dude. We're good.

There was some comment about, you know, profanity is a sign of intelligence, and I just commented, then I must be really dumb. No, i saw that recently because it kind of flipped you know because back in the day it was like you know oh yeah especially with stand-up comedy which i'm really big into you hear uh oh you know they're using a lot of cuss words they must not must not be you know kind of practicing their skill yeah and uh i don't know i cuss like a sailor and i can't apologize for it it's just the way i talk yeah yeah that's yeah it's definitely not how you're raised i suppose

you know yeah my daddy was uh well provocative to say the least yeah i we got shocked when my dad would throw out a damn here and there like every few years you know you'd hear a day like oh dad must be really pissed i'd be sure you should make fun of my mom because like she would never cuss but like you know we'd be in the car and she'd pull out in front of somebody and like almost get us creamed and she'd be like oh shoot damn it and you know like it's just like hilarious just out just hilarious when she would do it yeah i think my mother's given my mother's given name for me was you little well i mean it's just funny because yeah my my you know her son went on to be a professional uh cuss word uh

uh what are you gonna do yeah what do you do um sorry i'm making justin uncomfortable oh no no i apologize i got i got like i got in deep when i went to australia and those guys have no filter you know yeah yeah the aussies or or uh yeah oh okay because you went with the c word is like a nice little compliment yeah oh that's one of my favorite four-letter words to be honest with you yeah you get in trouble over here though yeah oh yeah that's it i think those are two different at two different levels of uh yeah yeah they're not the same my buddy uh chris cupperpper, he was talking to a bartender. He'd knock back a few, I think he said, and he called. He's like, oh, you're just a mad C.

She's like, excuse me? You're out of here. You're done here. Kicked him out. He's like, no, no, I'm from Australia. It means something different. I don't care. Get out.

She was not having it. I wouldn't cross that threshold. You got to be careful around here with that one. It's better to use the word. You got to use the word chook in America. Chooking, huh? Chooks are chickens. You're a crazy chicken. Right?

I don't know. That must be some West Coast talk. like chooks are chickens you're a crazy chicken right? I don't know that must be some West Coast talk yeah it's not German but I can see the connection there now you've got some German connection don't you? you Landa? yeah I speak German I lived in Berlin for a couple years

ich bin ein Berliner you're a pastry of some i am a pastry i am a donut i'd love to go to the fatherland sometime but uh yeah yeah i might be back there next year we've got a conference in france like in the east of france and so i might head over at least to switzerland go to somewhere, speak German speaking. If I can, I'd love to take a bicycle trip through Belgium and just hit the abbeys and monasteries and check out the German brews. And I was going to say,

will you be drinking beer on a bicycle? Cause that's the only way I can get you doing it. Yes. I didn't swag. Yes. Singing, squashing beer. Like,

yeah, it would have to be like that stein yes yes all of that oh i'm down well the mp guys had uh bill stagle back on so it's good to hear hear that one i haven't heard that one yet yeah I pretty much have turned into a fucking Mackin Wookiee, and I don't listen to podcasts anymore. Apparently, I'm all Wookieed out. Well, to be honest, I'm wiped. I worked a 12-hour day on Monday, or a 14-hour day on Monday. I worked a 12-hour day yesterday,

and at least four of those hours combined were Reptile Fight Club and the Colubrid and Colubroid radio all right nice not a bad not a bad listener we found a lot of time working yeah and unfortunately i don't mean to sound nerdy or fandom but uh they were some repeats you know nice yeah you know yeah hey i i do that all the time i miss a lot on the first pass so you know you um is uh let's see what was i gonna say uh i blinked out what do you oh what do you do what do you what do you do for yeah what do you for work uh so i work at a science museum the museum discovery in little rock arkansas nice i am facilities and exhibits. So, you know, you have a few hundred kids

run through a 40,000 square foot space and you need somebody to pick up the pieces. Yeah. So every, you know, the 14 hour day on Monday was we packed up a couple of 26 foot box trucks full of a Arkansas Diamonds exhibit and hand-loaded it into the front entrance of a library up in the hills of northern Arkansas in B&P, to be honest. But it's part of our outreach, you know, trying to provide some of that education to some of the lacking communities.

They give us a little kickback in funds so we can provide that for them annually. Cool. And I think it's a great resource for them. Yeah, we have an AZA accredited animal room with some all right reptiles. You know, I'm kind of niche in what I like as far as animals are concerned, and we have some mammals, which I absolutely can't stand. Are they all natives or like uh no so we have a game and fish uh museum right behind us and they kind of take care of most of that we do have two opossums well one of them just died from

cancer apparently they only live for a few years yeah yeah that's a common thing like they get cancer and they have all tumors and stuff. Right. But I'll tell you what a disgusting animal. Yeah. Oh my God. Just the smell of mammals, you know, like why, why not just get a snake, you know, just be done with it. But no, we, we, we have, we have, um, you know, snakes and, and, and lizards and, um,

arachnids and mammals. And, uh, it. And it's, it's, it's pretty cool. You know, right now we're dealing with an, a FDA and USDA situation where we're trying to get some insects that are potentially invasive to our state.

And they've given us an outline, a list of things that we have to do preliminarily to uh be able to accept these yeah and it's you know a specific gauge mesh on all of the exit and entrance hva system ducting and it's you know oh this little pipe that this conduit that's coming through the wall well you better seal around that and it's it's it's become kind of a mess but uh i mean hey you know if it gets us to be able to show kids and families uh some of these things that they haven't been able to see before then hey you know it's worth it yeah that's cool but yeah that sounds like a fun job do you get to like uh do tours or not necessarily on that side so we have a traveling exhibits uh technician that i assist

because of my history in like uh trade shows and also exhibit uh installation okay i worked in exhibit uh and trade show uh for probably five or six years before this, which I've been at this current job for, oh, this year will be nine years in August, this past August. So I've been in the museum world for quite a while. We're actually going up to Philadelphia this weekend to check out a $1.5 million climber installation that we're going to be getting later on this year before thanksgiving i mean you say climber this is like a rock climbing thing or no it's more like a uh kind of an interactive um abstract artistic kind of uh get a bunch of five five to ten year olds in this climbing structure that has a lot of different multicolored

acrylic opaque pieces and you have like that multi-ply like russian birch kind of uh accents and lights and stuff like that and uh it's going to take place of this thing we call the woosh which uh we have three large 240 volt uh squirrel cage fans that run through five-inch ducting, flexible ducting, where you take these juggling scarves, you put them in different little holes within this ducting, and you have flapper valves where you can adjust which point they're going to eject from. And the three- and four- and five-year-olds they just i mean they go yeah that'd be pretty safe for kids that's cool yeah so that's most that's mostly our target

audience is pretty much 16 and under um hey it's fun i don't like kids and it's the best birth control you can ever have is working at a children's museum but uh you know there's there's definitely highlights to it and they treat us good and uh yeah hey you know i get to build stuff and experiment with different substrates and materials and it's it's a fun time that's awesome all right so miles you're from arkansas you work at the museum where do you fit in with herpetoculture so i took i took quite a break i uh i've probably been three or four years now i've been really kind of deep diving into uh different species i've kind of found my niche and uh really appreciating desert species desert creatures cool uh the survival the ingenuity and the endurance it takes to live in the most inhospitable places on earth is something that i really respect yeah that's

cool that's same same feeling on that that's awesome i can tell you i could piss a lot of people off by saying that i absolutely detest ball pythons and the whole culture that revolves around them in the common trade of herpetoculture yeah um I did get my start a few years back with breeding crested geckos not because I necessarily really liked the uh biogeography or the natural history behind them but because I heard that they were easy to keep and easy to breed. So I haven't really bred crested geckos. I threw some in the cage and they bred themselves. Yeah. And I'm slowly starting to kind of pawn off what's left of those. I have maybe five or six left that I'm slowly getting rid of.

I have a Pantheratherophus Williamsy Gulf Hammock Rat Snake who is an absolute psycho. My favorite. Oh man, he is just so tuned in, so visually acute to everything that is going on and absolutely

gorgeous. I've never seen him before in the trade or the hobby. And I thought, hey, what the hell? Where do they occur naturally? In the Gulf Hammock area of Florida. It's an intergrade zone, a natural intergrade zone, between what I believe is the gray rat snake

and either the Everglades or the yellow rat snake. So they have these different colors of caramel and brown and tan and just really beautiful. It kind of produces this different saddle pattern. Oh, my God. It's so much different than what you would think of as just a regular phenotype rat snake. Hey, stop. They're really pretty, and i'd never seen them before

a local pet shop had one for like a hundred bucks so i was like yeah i better get that and then you know i have the uh the super dwarf breadly that i purchased from uh yeah the doc and they're doing absolutely wonderfully cool uh put on quite a bit of size i will say the female is extremely cage defensive for some for some reason or another i don't know what happened she was super cool and then all of a sudden she just changed and like tagged me like two times in like two seconds i was like okay okay so target training it is okay um. But no, I'm trying to kind of switch over my room to specifically desert species. I have a humidifier, a dehumidifier running right now. And in Arkansas, if you haven't been here, which I doubt you have, it is the Vietnam of North America.

And it is so bad. I mean, throw a wet towel on your face and heat it to a hundred and you're here, baby. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's completely foreign. I'm, I'm in the desert region that you speak of. I'm kind of the high elevation desert here up in Northern Utah, but then down South, you know, you get get into the like the red rocks and the canyons and stuff but yeah we're actually humidity is a foreign thing to me yeah i we we get rid of maybe uh four three to four gallons of water a day out of our household air from a dehumanivire three to four gallons yes absolutely now granted i live in an old house that's swiss cheese and i live in a 1970s hvac system so you know there is a caveat to that but yeah yeah it's it's it's crazy though man it's a temperate jungle here man you're you might you might need to move

if you're into desert stuff that's what i've been telling my girl, man. I've like, you know, I, I spent quite a bit of time in Arizona and that's kind of my, my, my dream. Uh, the first time I really got back into Herbst after I got off the road, I used to be a vagrant, a train hopper and a hitchhiker. And I was homeless for most of my teenage years, um, on all kinds of substances that you shouldn't be talking about. And, uh, uh, I got cleaned up by a medicine man of the Pasquale Yaqui tribe in southern Arizona, about 15 miles out of Tucson. He had a 15-acre range. Got me sobered up.

Anyways, I was working on one of his old Ford pickups, and I looked over to the side and I saw this two and a half foot long Gila monster, this lava orange and pinkish kind of striping just walking along the sand, you know, amongst the mesquite trees and the jumping cactus and I was like, oh shit, you know

so I go running up to it and I'm like, you know, a foot away from it and he just does not care you know, he's like got all the confidence in the world. And it just, it hit me, you know, and that was maybe 10, 10 or 11 years ago, 12 years ago, I should say. And it kind of re-sparked, you know, that interest in reptiles for me. My first reptile was a blue tongue skink when i was maybe eight or nine years old it died after about 25 years old oh wow um and i haven't really kept much being you know

living living out of a backpack for years and then yeah just kind of like focusing on work and and uh yeah yeah so now i'm slowly starting to transition back into pushing away these more tropical species and trying to get like a jungle, a desert specific room together. Nice. Hey, that's, I mean, those connections that, that, that's like, those are formative things, you know, when you can make that connection i i still have these just images that are ingrained into my brain of you know first interactions with certain reptiles in the wild and you know to see a gila monster like that you know in that setting where you're you know cleaning up and stuff like that that's that's pretty uh impactful that's pretty awesome oh it's incredible i i do have another one uh we had tax shacks you know we, we had, we were, we were on a ranch, a working ranch and I took care of the horses, you know, it's five 30 in the morning. You get up, you fill the water trough, you throw out the alfalfa and you brush

down the horses and get the saddles ready. And, uh, we, I go into the tax shack where we keep all the saddles and stuff. And, uh, being a medicine man, he had, uh, TP canvases and stuff rolled up in the corner. I needed to pull those out and get them cleaned, lifted up one, five baby diamond backs scurry out. And I start tap dancing, you know, like backwards out of the place, you know, and, and it should have freaked me out and it did it at first but at the same time you know it was that i just man that appreciation just grew so much more it was a little heart-wrenching when i went and told uh indio is uh the mess man's name hey you know this happened he's like well go grab a shovel oh you know yeah it's like oh yeah i guess

they went away you know i couldn't find them you know it is what it is yeah that's that's the the downside i guess of being interested in reptiles you tell somebody you like them and they tell you about the time they killed one or i can't man hey living down in arkansas oh yeah that's oh yeah and and it irritates me so much because i live kind of in bfe i live about eight miles down an old highway um the the instructions that i give people is hey take the uh exit where the ammunition factory is which don't get me wrong i'm a gun fan i mean i was gonna say you got an ammunition factory. Yeah. Remington arms. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but, oh, and I love, Hey, don't get me wrong. I'll go shoot some shit, but man, me too. You're Southern, you're Southern California. So you might as well be Arkansas. Certain areas down there.

Fair enough. That is true. You go away from the coast, you get. Yeah, yeah, yeah. East County is, I mean, you know. Y'all vote red. I know it. Hey.

Definitely Southern California is way redder than the rest of the whole state. Absolutely. I don't vote for anything because I think it's all a scam. But I digress. I agree with you there. Yeah. Well, cool. All right.

Well, yeah, that's awesome. That's cool. When we were staying in Arizona at the Airbnb, we went out, of course, flipping any boards that were in the yard. And there was a big guy. It was kind of a younger uh diamondback beautiful western diamondback just coiled up under this they get big at an early age down there man because the prairie dogs are so prolific they have an excellent food source and those prairie dogs being you know uh uh digging down living underground i mean co-opting a burrow is food for months yeah you know i i don't

want to i don't want to rub it in much but i'll probably when this airs i'll be herping arizona so hey i'm actually another trip down there are you going now yeah yeah seriously what time um uh two weeks i think oh is this a is this a robin eric trip or what's the no it's just a justin and actually steve's gonna go what yeah you want to drive over and meet us out there what the hell you probably ride with steve anything yeah well it was kind of a spur of the moment thing like i i i'm pretty sure i told you about it like i booked on a pretty sure you down there did not well what part of arizona are you going to just uh tucson yeah southern like the um huachuca is so beautiful man oh yeah that's just i i i realized i had some

uh unused uh like i had a refund of a ticket from Delta. And so I needed to use those up before they expired and I kept forgetting them. So I'm like, it's raining down there. It's monsoon. I'm going back because Dustin kept posting pictures of all this. Oh yeah. He's been going. I mean, I don't know. He's just going hard in the paint, man. You know what I mean? Like, just like, Hey, I'm gonna, I'm, I'm gonna let you all know how, how little, how little, uh, how little you are.

Yeah. So field her game, Dustin is going to pick me up at the airport and, uh, and we're going to meet up with Steve and go her, uh, her around. So we'll kind of play it by ear a little bit, but I think we're gonna stick around the huachucas and go over to uh you know you guys camping or airbnb yeah we're roughing it we're not we're not doing a rob trip this time so we're just gonna like camp and dance and stuff dare you sir you did not tell me you got time you got time what are the dates um hi i can't i can't remember off the top of my head i'll text

you yeah we'll talk offline yeah yeah okay yeah it'd be great get the band back together yeah i feel slighted all right anyway yeah no i was surprised he was able to cut like yeah i'm really excited he's coming i was a little surprised he was able to do it so yeah that was cool um and you know he's from phoenix there or yeah he's from phoenix area so i think his parents still uh live up there so he's got you know home base down there so yeah it should be fun but yeah i'll uh i got a couple targets i haven't seen yet so i need i want to see a tiger rattlesnake and like dustin's been finding like you know 20 of them a week or something down there so i think the chances are all right but we're also gonna try try for the you know find a twin spot i

need a picture of a twin spot oh yeah yep that's one of the remaining that's the remaining uh high elevation rattlesnakes uh at least in arizona i think that we need to see so yeah but i don't think dustin's seen one either so yeah if we can find one of those that'll be a tick can't believe you didn't think to bring the chuck mojo with you like what the hell i know what the hell disrespect yeah i just thought you'd ghost me you know you wouldn't hell dude so you're like yeah we won't even invite him double disrespect i'm sorry. I've been hard on him about his wife and all kinds of business.

I'm apologizing. Now I feel like I was... No, it's fine. He deserves it. He deserves everything. I'm trying to get y'all fighting against each other so I get it easy. I felt bad I was giving him a hard time. Then to come find out,

I have every reason to no i slightly ridiculous i do feel a little horrible when when you sent me that text uh just i was like oh man you know do oh shit what did i say like it was one of those things where i was like uh i really don't want to cancel because i don't get a lot of options to talk to people who are interested in reptiles you, other than showing me a picture of one laying dead across their fucking tailgate. Yeah. So I'm happy that...

Well, you're here now. Exactly. Yeah. Well, let's fight. So the topic... So Miles picked this topic and brought it to our attention, so we invited him to come on the show and fight it out with us.

So we're going to talk about reptile and fight it out with us so so we're gonna talk about reptile shows if they're you know effective at their purpose or kind of the pros and cons I guess of what what maybe they're lacking or or issues that you know might have with reptile expose so timely thing there's lots of good expose going on so we can discuss some of those things um and uh we'll go ahead and flip the coin between chuck and i see who gets to fight you miles all right you want to call it there that's heads it is not it is tails man you're losing yours your edge you're losing them apparently so yeah well um i'm i want to do this one but i also i'm thinking maybe i might go check

on my wife once in a while and kind of ditch out so and i'm not thinking straight as you guys can tell and i've pissed chuck off so maybe he's riled up maybe i'll let you take this one chuck that's all right you good for that you're the winner winner. You decide. You tell me. All right. Okay. And then, Miles, if you want to call it, we'll see which side you get to pick. I'll go tails. And it is heads. Chuck gets to pick.

You want the kind of pro reptile exposure awesome? Yeah, I'll do the pro side of it. Okay. I'll do the pro side of it okay i'll do the pro side of it excellent all right sounds like a plan so uh and then i assume you're i will defer so you're deferring why don't you walk us out of the game we call that getting chucked okay yeah well i have about 16 or 17 points for either so All right. Nice. I'm prepared. I'm definitely not going to try to explain all those in my opening argument. No, never in the opening salvo. Yeah, never, never in the opening salvo. But I'll start with some of the main aspects that I find.

I don't know. Again, I'm coming in kind of late in life back into the reptile scene and i'm seeing things from uh kind of a filtered lens sure yeah i mean we we like that kind of different you know perspective because there's all sorts of different perspectives so yeah yeah and you kind of have you have the east coast like upper like new england area you have the west So, yeah to speak. I wish there was some type of outlet personally, physically, that I could kind of unleash my interest in the hobby. And it's lacking here.

We do have a couple of reptile shows that are close by um but they're very small and i noticed that uh even in seeing videos of other reptile shows farther away that it ends up kind of being the ball python and crested gecko and bearded dragon experience. There's not a whole hell of a lot of diversity in species. And I'd say that's one of the main cons. Another main con is to kind of pull on the animal rights side of things to play the devil's advocate is stress to the animals. I mean, if, if, if we, uh, talk about what, what, what do you do when, when you receive an animal, put it in its closure, don't mess with it for two weeks. Well, we say that to people, if we're going to mail an animal to them and you know it's been in a rack or it's

been in an enclosure uh by itself yet we're going to bring it out to the public in this tiny clear completely translucent box from all sides for all of these people who are let's be honest a lot of people that come to wreck pile expose are going to be, um, not necessarily hands-on, but kind of, you know, in, in their faces, let's say. Uh, so, you know, there is that kind of stress aspect for the animals themselves. Um, I would say cross contamination is an absolute huge issue with reptile expos mites disease bacteria fungi you know these are things that uh maybe less scrupulous uh breeders or vendors might uh kind of push away and not necessarily want to talk about or admit to. Okay, one second.

Let's let Chuck respond to the first couple points there. Sure. So first point, I think, you know, with reptile shows being small and lacking, I mean, I hear you. I can see how, you know, depending upon where you are in the country, how definitely reptile shows could be lacking in certain areas or,

or maybe certain areas only have, you know, like out in California, we have several shows a year, uh, they're all fairly large. Um, and they get fairly good draw from other places. And like, you see something like the NARBC, uh, or, um, you know, like, uh, uh like even, you know, some of the other, you know, other larger shows, they they tend to to to draw people from other places. And I think that's that's kind of where it's at. And I get, you know, it would be nice if if they could do, you know, a lot of shows in smaller places, but I think in lieu of there only being so many kind of reptile breeders and in so many areas, uh, that, that are, um, you know, up to vending shows, it's, it might not be the worst thing to kind of have shows in more concentrated areas in bigger cities and then,

you know, um, have people travel. Uh, I think that's kind of the big thing is, and, and, you know, you see, I see it a lot with, with a lot of my reptile friends on Facebook where there's a, Oh, Tinley parks happening, Daytona's happening. And everybody makes a, a kind of a, you know, an effort to it and they go. And, um, you know, I, I, I personally like going to reptile shows. One of the reasons is, is because it's a camaraderie thing. You know, it's, it's, uh, the first time I ever met the good doctor,

uh, here was, uh, was at, uh, NERBC Anaheim. And, um, we met, you know, Ben, his Ben Morrell, his, his co-business owner at the time and Steve Sharp, who was also part of AAR. And the three of us have kind of been friends ever since I met, you know, Kerry King from the band Slayer, who was also into carpets there and you know i've i've i've every year i go i meet different people um and um different characters and and my kind of my you know my repertoire of friends uh gets bigger so i guess if if you don't you know if you're if if and it helped because i met justin and we were friends and we would go and then he would know people and I would meet people. And so, you know, I can see how if you didn't know anybody or like, you know, you're coming from a smaller area that doesn't have a show, then that's kind of tough. You want to be able to have those shows closer to you so it's more comfortable rather than have to make a trip somewhere where you

don't know people stay, you kind of walk around and you're like, well, I don't, you know, but, but, you know, at the same time, like if you just go to tables and start talking to people or strike up conversations with people and you meet people, then that's, that's how that kind of stuff starts. And, and I think, you know, some of that is just putting yourself out there in the community and there's, you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of nope in the community, but there's also an exorbitant amount of just awesome people.

And I think, you know, that, that, the willingness to travel to shows to kind of experience those people is, is probably the reason why I think, you know, maybe the why I would support the, you know, shows not being in smaller areas is better because it And so you get lots of people from different areas that probably wouldn't normally get together at a show. And then all of a sudden they're all there at the show and you're meeting new people, you're meeting all these. And it's, it just makes for a, you know, a potential mix for one, a good time, a good friendship. I mean, you know, we were at an Anaheim show and we sat down with the great Casey Lasek one night, and he just told stories about his times in Australia. And it was one of the most amazing nights I've ever had, just listening to Casey Lasek go on and on and on about just the –

and guys like Casey, they don't talk about back then. You know what I mean? Just because, but to sit down and be able to hear that if I wouldn't have gone to that show if I wouldn't have traveled up from you know and granted you know it's only down in in Chula Vista all the way up to Anaheim which isn't that far but there are people who are traveling much greater distances obviously Justin comes in from Utah for any of the San Diego shows or guys come down from Washington State or wherever you you know? So I, you know, I think that's the, to the first point you know, that's, that's kind of where I'm at. If you, you want to. Well, the last, I'll just jump in real quick.

The last reptilian nation show, there was a couple of the vendors from up, you know, around Chicago and things like that. Yeah. Robinson and a couple others. So I think some of these, one of the more nationwide or chain shows, whatever you want to call them, that have shows in different states, it's kind of cool that way because sometimes the people just do the circuit. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And let me see.

So Chicago would be kind of a good example that's that's as far as latitudinally speaking you know that's about on in line with little rock arkansas central central arkansas how far how far of a drive would that be for you to chicago to chicago oh that's a day okay yeah it takes three days to get to to the west coast yeah yeah so uh the last reptile show that i went to was a repticon uh memphis which is actually in south hazen haven mississippi that's a uh two and a half hour drive for me okay which you know that's that's that's not too bad yeah that's that's that's fine you know and it was great and let me add the caveat that I am

so pro reptile expo I want to play the devil's advocate and I have the points to make it and a lot of them are going to be kind of like cringy you know animal rights type you know points but

I think it's relevant to bring it up because I think a lot of times, you know, we live in an echo chamber, uh, no matter what, no matter what we do. And, uh, I, I do agree that it's, it's great to bring people out. Like I said earlier, uh, you know, before we started Aaron, I'm, I'm, I'm a pretty extreme introvert. Uh, unless I get about a beer or two in me, it's hard for me to start opening up. But, you know, it's financially, logistically, and strategically hard for people to plan three days to get to a point where you're going to be able to see, epicenter of herpetoculture and the hobby and people that have the same interests as you. Because not only am I into reptiles and stuff like that,

but I'm also into kind of a niche thing. To be honest, I could really care less about ball pythons or green tree pythons or any of these jungle things that are super hard to keep. And I like desert creatures, man. And I could definitely make it to, like, you know, Southern Carpet Fest in Texas or some of these tri-state area reptile expos. But I feel like maybe my complaint about Reptile Expos is that there isn't, I guess it's, there's not enough people in the hobby that are really willing to put forth the

effort, and I'm one of those people included, that don't want to put up the infrastructure needed to facilitate that type of atmosphere in these lacking regions. I would love to be able to go to, and it's definitely feasible for me, to go to an NARBC show, which I've never been to. St. Louis does one, like you were saying. And that's just, you you know four or five hours away from me and i think that would be an absolute great uh outlet for me to be able to go and communicate with people that are like-minded um but i do think there is definitely a lot of problems that come with some of the expo mentality i I'm a little sheltered, you know, in the sense that some of my information comes from YouTube,

which is the only social media that I use. And that's only because I like to watch videos. I would say there is some sensationalism that's involved with expos. And that's a big problem where it becomes... I guess my main issue is, why does an expo have to be so contingent on breeder output? And I mean, why can't these be... Why can't these be, why can't there be more,

I don't know, why is it so profit motivated? We're so capitalist in nature that if we're not making money from it, if we don't see a profit from it, then it's no good. I really like that point because there used to be

kind of a more element of education at the shows where you'd have like almost a symposium attached to a reptile show. And I think there are still, you know, those like the IHS, you know, show and things like that where it's just talks, you know, there's no sale of reptiles anymore. And so they used to be those were joined together and now they've completely, not completely, but almost entirely severed. And so you either go to a symposium or you go to a reptile show. And it would be really nice if they married those back together a little more. We did have the gecko symposium that was at Tinley a few years back, and Nathan Hall put that on. It was really well done because he did the legwork to get people there, get good speakers. Well, I guess I can't say good speakers because I was one of the speakers,

but the other speakers were great. Oh, teach your own one, man. But we did a carpet Python symposium at Tinley maybe right after the release of the first edition of the carpet book. So, you know, 10, 11 years ago. And, you know, we had Eric Burke speak and Terry Phillip and myself. And like the crowd and maybe it was I don't know what I probably should have done a better job of kind of drumming up, like getting people there and stuff. So the crowd wasn't like it was at the Gecko Symposium.

So obviously if you do it right, you can get a nice big crowd there. But, you know, just getting more talks or things that shows and, you know, maybe more broad talks and things. But, you know, we had like the one that alan rapashi put on the herpeton out in san diego yeah yeah with uh philippe uh devos and alan rapashi put that on and it was a really cool meeting like really again just wonderful speakers uh myself included no um but yeah it was uh it was a cool symposium for sure i just i was just geeking out with all the cool information but you know if they had that at every reptile show just had some kind of symposium where they had speakers and i guess you know there is an element

of that at a lot of shows these days but you know that would be cool to have more scientific uh like right at the at the the Utah show we just had. They had like presentations on crocodiles and, you know, that kind of thing. And so they'd show crocodiles and talk about them and stuff. So there is still an element of that. But I guess I'm thinking like the old school, like talk about a group of reptiles and their natural history and all that kind of stuff. Have a slideshow, that kind of thing. So I don't know.

So to hit on a couple points. So, you know, you kind of talked about how the cost of traveling is high, which and, you know, the distances you got to travel is kind of an issue. And then you kind of touched on how profit motivated and, you know, how how kind of gross capitalist it all feels. And, you know, how, how kind of, um, gross capitalist at all feels, uh, and, and, you know, you're, you're, you're not wrong. Um, you're not wrong, but I think, you know, just from a, uh, if I could speak from a breeder's perspective on that, you know, there is a lot of costs in travel and you, you know, you got to pack up potentially hundreds

of animals, uh, transport them, uh, you know, get them all set up, take care of them, make sure everybody's good, hotel, gas, all those things that anybody who would travel just for the show. Plus, you have to, you know, take care of all your animals, your display booths and everything. And and so, you know, unfortunately, some of these breeders, they kind of have to be profit motivated because they're not spending their personal, you know, some of them may have, you know, jobs and then being a breeder is a second, you know, is a second income or, or a side, you know, a side hobby for them. So, you know, their ability to make a profit at these shows is absolutely

critical or they just don't do the shows and then the shows don't have vendors. And then when the, you know, the vendors stop showing up, the promoters stop doing the shows and then the shows kind of go away. And so, you know, they're and I get it. I mean, it's not necessarily like the, you know, the nicest look. Right. It's not like, oh, yeah, all these guys care about is making money. And it's like, well, you know, if you if you had to raise, you know, 100 and 150 snakes a year as babies order for a lot of the animals that I have, and I'm already probably more than halfway through that food order, and I'm going to have to order more. And when I sit there and think about the money that I'm spending, it's kind of like, geez, man, I'm just going through this cash. So it's hard for me to be tough on at least the breeders who come to these shows because they do have to shell out a lot of cash. And if people aren't buying what they want, which which kind of goes to the diversity issue is, you know, at some level, professional breeders have to breed what sells. If if if it

is their primary income, they certainly have to be sensitive to that. And I think a lot of breeders, you know, recognize that there's a lot of cool reptiles out there, like Justin always says, and there's so many, but not all of those reptiles are commercially viable. You may have a handful of people who care about a certain species or a certain type of, you know, weird gecko that nobody's ever heard of and is really tough to keep or is highly specialized. So and, you know, a lot of those people who come to Reptile Exposed, they're not professional keepers or breeders.

They're pet enthusiasts and they've got their kids with them. And so, you know, some of that stuff that's on those tables is there because it's being marketed to the right audience. And, you know, if you're lucky enough and usually you got to search for it. And that, to me, that's part of the fun is I take the doctor with me and we go running around the show looking at like, who has the cool stuff? Who's got some cool things? Like who's, what's, what's, what's, what's the one or two people who are doing really like different stuff? What are they bringing? You know? And, and so that's, you know, to me, that's part of the whole appeal is finding the diversity in the, you know, in the sea of, of, of everything else. But, but, you know,

to kind of speak to why there's the everything else is because there kind of needs to be. And, and those markets around crested geckos and ball pythons and leopard geckos is because, you know, like me, I like giant day geckos. They don't handle very well. So they're probably not a great kid pet. So you could see giant day geckos at the reptile shows, but they're not sold at the same rate as like a leopard gecko is because a little kid can pick that up and be like, Oh, this little cool paint job gecko of mine. I love it so much. It's the best. And if that's what hooks kids in to keeping reptiles and, and,

and a lifelong passion, then any breeder that I know will,% do that. One, because it helps them keep their business afloat. And two, it helps inspire that next generation and whatever it takes to get them hooked. Yeah, I think there's very few people that say, oh, my first pet was a Bolin's python or a white-lipped python. It's usually like five species, you bearded dragon boa ball python um leopard gecko you know or crested gecko and and and that's mostly what people start out on and so but that piques their interest and if they have a good experience they'll usually move on to different species and find this huge world of all these different kinds of reptiles. And so, or they just kind of have their pet and that's good, you know? And I think the importance of them having a good outcome

on their first type of reptile interaction is important. So, you know, docile, bulletproof, you know, pretty interesting. You know, maybe that doesn't describe ball pythons to a carpet or, or a scrub python guy, but certainly somebody who's first snake, they may find that pretty interesting. They may find all the little things that snakes do that, you know, people were like, yeah, I kept ball pythons. They're rocks. Who cares? You know what I mean? But you know, you're, you're talking about like, like when, when Justin and I did the super show, we were asking people of all different walks in the in the in the in the in the show, you know, their experiences. And we got, you know, from from breeders to just, you know, general enthusiasts and pet keepers, we got wildly different answers. So like, it really struck me how different my lens is from somebody

who's getting their first ball Python or getting their first, you know, leopard gecko or corn snake or whatever. And, you know, I had to take a step back because I, you know, I feel like I've been doing this long enough that I was like, Oh, wow. Yeah. I'm, I'm the old guy. I, you know, I, I don't think of myself as, as the OG, but I guess in this, I mean, I'm more of the OG than the new G, you know what I mean? I do think there is some, um, I don't know. I think a lot of times we get jaded against certain species because they are common and we want to think of ourselves as, you know, on the next order up or something, you know, and I've heard, I think it was Barczyk referred to that as the Tinley crowd, you knowthons unless they're the the highest you know morph in the in the market or something but you know i think there is something good and kind of back to basics about appreciating a crested gecko i mean for crying out loud they were thought to be

extinct for for a while until somebody went out and rediscovered them and brought them into the pet trade and now they're the most common gecko you can you can get it and so you know i i appreciate a crested gecko because they're so unique and different and weird and and you know just because they're common doesn't make them less you know and i think i think a lot of times we get that attitude oh it's just a common species zero it's just wild caught but as soon as that import market dries up everybody's like i want those and i can't get them now and so the price goes way up and everybody wants them and it's like you could have had those all along but you were just looking for the dollar aspect or something i don't know yeah and i do feel so i'm gonna say this and then i'll let miles jump in this thing but um yeah it

was interesting this so and this may be a little like i might get shit for this or whatever but you know me i don't give a fuck so um so you know i just looked at the the board of directors for like us arc and they do the us arc auctions at all the shows now and it's like you know it's great that we're fundraising and but we're not doing like you said we're not doing those talks anymore any you know it's all It's all fundraising and it's all business. And if you look at that board of directors, they're all businessmen. They're all show promoters and businessmen, which I'm not saying that's bad. I'm just saying you can see why we're going towards the – because we need the fundraising for USARC, because we need that legislative muscle out there.

And unfortunately, the thing that suffered is kind of the, you know, the lecture talk on, which kind of sucks. But hey, it's good we got people like Rapashi out there doing stuff like that, right? And just like ball pythons and crested geckos at the show, all things in their place. And we need to be able to fundraise and we need to have, you know, common entry level pets. We also need to have, you know, less common, more harder to breed things. So all things in their place, all things are good. I'm just I'm just pointing out like, you know, you can see why those things happen now. You can see why and where the focuses come from and how, you know, and how they happen. And that's OK. It's OK. But it is what it is.

OK, sorry. Rant over. You can respond, Miles. this yeah um so uh i guess with the crested gecko bearded dragon uh ball python situation the biggest thing to unpack for me is is it the chicken before the egg or the egg before the chicken it are people buying these animals because that's what breeders think is a viable market strategy or is it because these are the easy animals to keep? Are these the ones that people need to be keeping first? To be honest, I don't think most people that get totally consumed by a market strategy are really considering what's healthy for the consumer. I think they're thinking, what's going to pay my bills,

and what is going to make it to where I don't have to bring animals back. And a pretty colored flesh sack, like a ball Python is going to sell a whole hell of a lot easier than say, you know, a doo doo brown baby carpet. You know what I mean? Not only that, but you know, to kind of unpack that a little bit more, another really cheap, really pretty, visually important and easy to sell reptile, a reticulated python. And I do not mean to denigrate this person or their breed. I'm not going to say their name or anything like that. They had the best booth. They had some of the prettiest animals. But they were retic morphs.

And when you do bring that hobby, when you do bring that herpetoculture kind of atmosphere into a lacking community, these don't know they're coming to this show um even if they are involved in social media and stuff which i'm not i mean youtube is as far as i go i don't it's it's either that or email or phone but you come into that world and you see these beautiful animals and it's oh it's a hundred dollars well it's the same cost as this thing but it looks even prettier i mean i think some of these retic morphs are absolutely stunning and i'm not a morph guy necessarily i mean phenotypically they just they look beautiful but uh and they've got a 12 foot long retic that's sitting in a tub uh that they're going to take out for $5 for a photo op. And that's a, that's a nuanced situation in and of itself. Uh, I was, uh, the last, uh, when I went to a couple of weeks ago, I was with my little brother, uh, who's, uh, around 10 years old. I was with my sister who's

in her late twenties and my niece, her daughter, who was under 10 years old, she took a picture with that 11-foot long retic. And the elation in her eyes, in her facial expression, it was just incomprehensible. I mean, just, wow.

Now she's not afraid of snakes. And that's a con. I mean, a pro. Sure. But to go to the animal rights side, to play the devil's advocate, man, that big old retake is going to have to sit through two days of dealing with, I'm not going to say disrespectful, but possibly unconscious consumers that want some type of recognition on social media with that picture. And he was totally cool.

You know, she had a picture of it. I mean, she's it totally opened her eyes. It's a pro, you know, but it's a nuanced pro and seeing these animals and knowing that the demographic that that exposition kind of catered to was people that might not necessarily be in these larger metropolitan areas that have multiple shows all the time you know they don't know and a lot of these sellers they don't want to take animals back home that's extra cost that's an extra logistical hassle and some people uh not everybody for sure but some people they'd rather just hey 200 bucks and it's yours. I'm not going to ask questions.

And that's where a little bit of that, uh, I'll, I'll bring in a little bit of the, um, I'm not going to say dishonesty because a, I don't have the experience on seeing hundreds of reptile shows and B, I don't know everybody, you know, face to face, heart to heart. But, you know, when everything starts being consumed by capital you start seeing a little bit of leniency where well hey money talks

maybe truth and honesty can kind of take a back seat so I can make a buck or so these people can walk around the show with an expensive a big snake or even just like a yellow ball python. Cause it seems like there's a hundred different morphs of ball python, but they're all just different shades of yellow cares. Um, but they're just walking around, you know, uh, uh, with them in their hand for hours.

And it's like, oh yeah, that's good for them. Yeah. I can guarantee you that animal's not stressed at all. Sure. Uh-huh. You know, but, uh, uh, and, and, and, and and and and i and i saw that and it really caught me you know is these people they're not being taught by these breeders because because hey they're and no offense to anybody but these people were trying to make money. That's why they're there.

Again, I understand that there's no fault to the person who's coming to that. Logistically, it's a hassle. It costs money to come there. You want to make your money back. You want to make it worth your while, but I don't know. I guess I'm just kind of one of those people that doesn't really think about money as an importance, and that's why I have credit card debt. But I feel like if we could just be more philanthropic towards each other and make it more of a community structure to where it's like, I don't know, education and appreciation over market evaluation. Yeah. You know what would be cool is if they had a requirement where you have, you know, like when you buy a new washer and it tells you how much you're going to spend on energy for that washer for the whole year.

I wonder if we had something like that, you know. If you buy this reticulated python, you you're gonna spend this much money buying rats or rabbits or and this much money on a cage you know it's gonna cost you i agree five hundred dollars a year i agree with you to an extent you will you will expend seven thousand joules of energy cleaning up this snake's horse shit this giant poop that it will make when you feed it that fifty dollar pig buy a shovel. I agree with you, but at the same time, customers are unscrupulous.

People are going to look at something and they're going to see that phenotype and they're going to put money towards it. And a more free tick isn't necessarily... You can get a beautiful reticulated python for a couple hundred bucks. Now, how much does it cost to get a straight natural type morelia spaloda mccarthy 600 yeah yeah and that's a boring looking snake hey now you know i think snake. I think they're beautiful. That's my dream.

To be honest. But to other people, when they see for some reason, yellow is just like the god color when it comes to reptile morphs and phenotypes. I don't know why. I'm not really a yellow fan. Jungle carpets don't

do it for me i think it's whatever you know sorry sorry yeah i'm a coastal man i heard my view hey i like tans and brown i like doo-doo brown snakes i'm a light sider i'm a light sider but i like the jungles and you know i mean uh i think breadly are probably one of my favorite species of python just because of the ingenuity that's involved with just being able to be that species in general. But I don't necessarily like orange. That thing, the cover of the gammon ranges. Oh, my gosh.

Hey, I'll tell you, today I just put my preorder in for the more complete. Oh, yeah, Flinders. What did I say, Gammon? Well, Gammon's Flinders. I mean, they're all similar. Yeah, same thing. So I got to get on here because I got a lot of shit to respond to still. Go on.

I got plenty to respond back. I know. I know you do. I know you do. So when you're talking about stress to animals and the potential for diseases that shows, I mean, all those are fair points. And those are things that just happen in the hobby. And I mean, you're not going to you're not going to get away from, you know, animals enduring stress. Sure. You know, breeding events are stressful.

You know, there's inherent stress and, and, you know, we don't have really, unless we were taking cortisol swabs and sending it off to a lab and getting, you know, a baseline cortisol level versus the stress level at a show, we don't know really how stressed these animals are. Um, and, and, you know, I, I think, you know, you're going to you have to you have to just accept some of the fact that some of these animals do endure some stress in their life and their pursuit to get to their final home. Disease and mites and things like that in a reptile show, they happen. And every breeder at that reptile show is aware of that. And hopefully they're doing their due diligence to have people use hand sanitizer before they handle anything that, you know, reduce contact with animals, uh, ensure good quarantine protocols when they take their animals back to their collection. Um, all of that

is, is, is a risk that, um, breeders take on themselves when they go to these things. And, you know, unfortunately consumers are the, you know, know, are the vector for a lot of this stuff where they handle one snake that's got something going on and then they handle another snake. And yeah, you know what? Like that sucks. Like it does suck. And it's one of like the downsides of of the hobby. But, you know, I drive to work every day. And in Southern California, you can't get away from that one driver who's got to be an asshole, no matter what he does. So no matter what thing you're doing in life, you're going to come across somebody who's kind of being an asshole. And the best thing you can do is be a good defensive driver or good, you know, good, have good protocols and, and, and be diligent about what you're doing to, to, to minimize that, you know, you cannot take the, uh, the risk out of life, uh, life happened,

you know, life is risked when you put your pants on. So, and, and then as far as like wholesaling at the end of shows, you know, I can, I see, I can see that from a negative standpoint, um, where, where you look at it and say like oh, yeah, these guys don't want to go back with all these animals, so they wholesale the animals. And, you know, I mean, on one hand, sure, you could look at that as, yep, they're copping out. They're just getting rid of their animals. But on the other hand, you could say, well, who are they wholesaling those animals to? They're probably bigger pet shops or people who deal in wholesale animals. So it's not like those animals are being thrown away. Those animals are being sold. They're going to help somebody else pay their bills. They're going to help kid, some kid who's in a reptile store, who's like, oh, mom, I want this or, oh, what's that?

That's the coolest thing ever. So, you know, I mean, to me, for breeders, it's a service to wholesale animals because, you know, sometimes pet shops are the ones that have the big draw. I mean, nobody's coming to my house all the time to, to look at reptiles because I don't want people in my house looking at reptiles, but if I'm wholesaling to a reptile shop and some kids coming in, and he's getting interested by the, the carpets that I, that I have wholesale to them or that they bought from me wholesale from a

show, then that's a win for me. You know what I mean? And, and, and of course, you know, you could say, well, you know, they're wholesaled. So they were sold at a low dollar value and, you know, you never know what happens to them. And yeah, you could do speculative politics about it and, and say like, yeah, that animal got sold for cheap. So it gets for cheap and i we've talked about that and well i think that can happen i don't want to assume the predominance of animals like that happen like that it's not in any it's not in anybody who sells live animals long term for a living to treat them horribly um and one get a name as somebody who's like a flesh peddler. And two, you know, it just

doesn't do well if if animal sales are your bottom line, and you kill all the animals that you get. So I would to respond to those two. And then to talk about the market leading the consumer versus the consumer leading the market. That's, you know, that's a tough call, man. I, you know, I feel like the market always has to lead or the consumer always has to lead the market. And, you know, if all these ball python breeders were doing all these morphs and crested geckos and all these things, and they just weren't selling and they just weren't that if people weren't into them and that's not what they wanted, then they wouldn't sell. So, you know, whether, you know, it's certainly not such an aggressive marketing strategy that any reptile keeper I know has as to, to like convince some little kid what he likes and what he doesn't like. A lot of times they go into pet shops or, you know, they get a book, you know, they get the complete ball python or whatever, you know, and they're looking through books like that.

I don't know a little kid who has the complete ball python. I'm just saying, you know, but you get what I'm saying. They see these things, wherever they see them, and then they make those decisions and maybe they find out they're great or not great. And I totally agree with you. Retic morphs are nuts they're freaking insane but you know i think that mom and dad at that reptile show seeing an 11 foot retic are like oh oh that's what that is oh yeah that's yeah sweetie sit down take a picture but that's a big nope rope we're not doing that no and so in you know i hope so but or they're a. And so, you know, I hope so, but, or they're a parent who's like, you know what? I'm totally into snakes. I have a room or

I have a ginormous enclosure and I can deal with that. You know, I had a, um, you know, I have a employee who had, who, who was talking to me the other day. And before he shipped off to the Marine Corps, he had a big African rock Python that python that he ended up giving away to a zoo. And it's at the zoo. But, you know, he went through the full gamut of like, oh, my gosh, that's what this is. Holy cow, this is more than I thought. And I was like, yeah, that's how it works. And he's like, yeah, it is.

And so, you know, and he's like, but I really liked it. So I kept it. And, you know, my parents helped me take care of it. And it was at their house. And when I went to the Marine Corps, I felt bad. Cause it's not, you know, it's not that my mom's older and this thing was huge and, you know, it was eating rabbits and like, it's probably not good for my mom to be dealing with this. So we,

we found a good home for it. So, you know, I guess that is to say, not every big snake has a bad outcome. I could see how a big snake wouldn't be, wouldn't be appropriate. But again, you know, if, if, if, if you like more, you know, flashy morph mutations and things like that, you know, even, even the guys that I know at the reptile shop are steering people away from Burmese and retakes for little kids. Like no, nobody, you know, these guys want to sell an animal and they don't want it to come back to them. Like here,

we don't want this. Here you go. So I, I do think, you know, well, while you have retake breeders who their job is to read retakes and that's what they're doing. And if somebody wants a retake, yes, you have to be an informed consumer. And some of that you know and and then the other part of that is you have people who are just like that's a huge snake and i'm a macho dude and i like that and i'm gonna get it and you're never gonna stop those you know those people are grown ass adults you're never gonna stop them that's i mean that's how it is that i so yeah yes i agree there's like inappropriateness and and maybe not always the best look. But again, I'll go back to my traffic example.

There's always that guy in traffic and you can't get rid of him. So, you know, and then to kind of tie it all together, you know, a lot of it comes off as, you know, this issue of like, well, you're stressing out the snake at these shows. You're pushing snakes that I'm not sure the market really likes. And above all, you're doing it for money. And I guess what I would say to that is, yes, all of that is true. But I think it's important that we walk and chew bubble gum, right? You can still sell snakes for money, but do it for the love. You can still love the animal and, and, and, and sell them for money. Because when I sell

snakes for money, it's not to make myself rich or to put my kids through college. Trust me, snakes do not do that for me. And I don't think they do that for a lot of people who don't do it professionally. And those people who do do it professionally, very few of them are driving Lamborghinis. So I think more, moreover, all those people for right or wrong, even the ones who may not be doing it the best, got into it with the best of intentions. I think we can all agree like the, the tiger King, uh, you know, totally crazy guy, totally, you know, has just like, they made him look like a circus and he did not help himself. But, but, but I don't think anybody who watched that said, yeah, when he got into it, I bet he really loved those cats. I bet he really loved those cats i bet he really

loved what he was doing but but the game got him a little fucked up and and and make no mistake he got fucked up in the game and it fucked him up he you know i'm not making excuses for people who you know sell half dead imports or things like that that's wrong and i'm never going to support that but you know sometimes people lose their way in animals it's not okay it's not good but sometimes people will lose their way in life and all those people have the best of intentions it's just things happen in life that i think can send people down bad avenues. And it's easy to point at them and be like, yep, see, that's why we can't have nice things. But you know, when you, a lot of times there's a, there's a bigger story behind that. You don't understand the whole story. You know

what I mean? Or, or there's reasons or, you know, and I'm not making excuses for any, any, anything ill in the hobby, but you know, there's also a vast majority behind those, you know, guys that are doing it wrong. They're doing it great and doing it right and exemplary and to just single out the ones that are doing bad is, you know, but of course, that's what our, the people who are against our hobby will do. And it's easy to focus on, right. When you see something bad or, you know, like, like we were talking about with the P to HSUS thing, as long as you can sneak a camera into the right place, you can make, you know, a whole community look bad because of one person. Right. And that's totally not been my experience with the hobby. I mean, most of the people that I know are great and they have, you know, good intentions and, and, um, and really

do great stuff. So, you know, I mean, it's, it's certainly it's tough and, and, you know, miles, I don't, I don't, I don't disagree with anything that you've said here today. I just think that there's another side to it. That's, that's, that's more of the side. That's my experience. You know what I mean? My, my, there's certainly that side to reptile expos, but, but on side that's my experience you know what i mean my there's certainly that side to reptile expos but but on a whole my experience with reptile expos has been a positive thing and sometimes you got to look for the positive in it because you sometimes see the negative but on a whole i can always find it okay i i know i i agree with the majority of what you're saying um it's hard for me to kind of play the devil's advocate you know to an extent however um i guess

i can say that the majority of the problems that i see are with the consumer rather than the vendor. However, that kind of brings, if there's a problem with the consumer and the consumer is consuming, then by default, there's a problem with the system, which includes the vendor. So again, I see so many people walking around an expo with live animals, free, you know, on their hands, walking around. And you can tell these animals are, you know, if it's a ball python, it's curling its head into a ball because it's freaked out. Because it's like, what the fuck are you doing holding me on your hand, walking around like I'm some goblet of power, so to speak.

And I saw more of that and it kind of leads me to a point where expos unfortunately might, there is that starvation in places where I feel like expos need to be more prevalent but those are also places where and I don't for god's sakes please don't think that I'm trying to bring politics or religion into it but when you come to the deep south there is a respect for humans that is a whole hell of a lot higher than respect for animals and I'm not saying that's across the board because it certainly isn't for me because I can see roadkill on the road and get pretty fucking bummed out. But I can hear about a shooting or something and it doesn't affect me the same way.

And I'm not saying that I'm a cold person towards humanity. I'm just saying that I know we're all a bunch of dumb pieces of shit and we do stupid things. However, when I see a dead animal, I have to wonder, was there a human that was involved in malice towards that animal? And, you know, I'll go down the eight mile stretch of highway that I have to get to home in the backwoods. And I'll see a run over snake a foot or two off the road, like off the white line of the lane. And it's been run over and you can see that it was intentionally a four, you know, a big truck or something went out of its way to kill an animal. So there's that lack of respect for anything that isn't human. And when you bring, and again, it's that nuanced situation where I absolutely believe that

more of expos and conventions and education and outreach need to be brought to these communities, to my community, uh, to the other surrounding communities, that's absolutely fundamental to being able to kind of bridge the gap between people that are in fear or ignorance of herpetoculture or reptiles in general. But, uh, it, it really sucks to see people who, and I think we were talking about it before, it's like you tell somebody about your interest in reptiles, and they show you a picture of a dead snake,

or tell you, oh yeah, yeah, I killed a snake. And those people, those are still some of the same people that are going to these expos in these, I'm going to say, herpetoculturally impoverished areas and those are some of the people that are buying some of these ball pythons because they have some sort certain shade of yellow or a retic because they have some certain shade of yellow and if a retic breeder were to tell its customers that it's going to cost them thousands of dollars to support this animal, they wouldn't be selling or bringing retics. I can guarantee you that.

And I saw it firsthand and I've seen it firsthand more than two or three times. So, you know, that I'd have to bounce back against because. And again. So what's the answer there? The answer is we. you know, that I'd have to bounce back against because, and again, so what's the, what's the answer there? The answer is we, we, we don't, we don't, we don't have expos. We don't keep reptiles in our homes and we make everybody go to a zoo to appreciate nature. Not at all. I think, you know, I think our, our problem as humans is we're, Hmm,

how do I put this in a pg rated way uh we're too meek to self-regulate do you know what i mean i think yeah i mean i i i don't know i mean i think you can find the example of that and there's you know the know, the, the, the world is, the world is rife with, uh, the ability to find bad examples. But I think if you're looking for the bad example, you will always be able to find it. Absolutely. And I'm a pessimist. I have to admit, you know, there's, there's no doubt about it. Um, and, and, and, you know, to make a pro out of the situation, even though I know this is the Fight Club and I shouldn't be doing this. But I'll give a shout out to Cinderella Dragons.

This booth, probably a four table booth, you know, fairly large booth at a trade show. This guy had tubs with acrylic covers. He had UV on his show displays he had heat halogen heat on his show displays for baby bearded dragons brilliant yeah a shining example i i think in the profession and i think those people are out there that they want to be. They want to be the message that that, you know, at a show that that they want other people to emulate. And I think that's that's kind of what I'm talking about is, you know, that and you know, I mean, herpetocultures come quite a distance in a fairly short period of time. And I think there is a push towards getting rid of racks and people doing more naturalistic setups and more, you know, more animal centric type things. And I see that more and more. So, you know, while you can find the bad example, the predominance of what I'm seeing is, is moving towards the, you know, the positive

and, and more, you know, probably closer towards, you know, dare I say like AZA type care rather than the, you know, the, the Brian Barczyk ball Python rack, you know, kind of way we used to think about things. So, you know, again, like, I hear what you're saying. And I can, I, I can guarantee you that there are, you know, some people at reptile expos that, you know, maybe aren't there for the true love of the animal, they just they're there for the thrill of it, or they just want to, they don't really care. But, but, you know, you can't, you can't really control that. And, and I think the, the vast, the, the, the far vast, more vast experiences that I've had at reptile shows is, is they're full of reptile geeks. They're full of people who, you know, new, old, young, they're, you know, they likes they like reptiles um and you know i

see interestingly enough i see people from all walks of life you know i've i've got a good friend who's a virology professor i've got you know another friend who's a heavy metal guitarist i've got friends who are doctors and lawyers and so so you know who emo people you know alternative lifestyle people are people of every you know like we we bring together the fringe of of of society into a place where and and so i can't think of uh of a hobby that's almost more progressive than we are. We do some of the most progressive stuff in this hobby and in how we're inclusive, but yet how we're an outlier. And so, you know, I do like, well, I understand. I understand the point you're making. And I guess, you know, from being where you're from and seeing what

you see, you have a perspective and, and, and your perspective is a hundred percent, right? All I'm saying is that I, you know, I'm not saying I have a bigger perspective or a better perspective, but my perspective is different because, you know, I've seen, um, you know, a lot more diversity at these shows. I've seen big, big shows. I would say both of y'all have a better perspective than what I have because you do have the experience behind that. Again, I'm not going to proclaim that I have any wisdom on the matter. Sure.

I can only speak to what I see and what I philosophize. Yeah. And that's cool. I'm just giving you. You know, and, and, and, and you're, and that's cool. And, you know, I'm just, I'm just giving you kind of, you know, from my take, that's, you know, I, I understand where you're coming from and you're not wrong. You're not wrong. I've seen that. I know what you're talking about. I mean, it's not like, it's not like I'm sitting here being like, yeah, that doesn't ring with me. I don't know where you're coming from. I do. I get where you're coming from. I just, I think to portray that as how the reptile community is, is probably a gross misrepresentation. And, and yes, it's there. Yes, it happens. But, and I would like to think it happens in the minority

and not the majority. I would, I would agree with that i would think that uh you know the the only thing that i see that i could kind of push back against with that would be the uh i guess you could quote them as uh pet shops or uh uh pet stores that kind of take up massive vendor spaces at expos and there's a lot of wild caught stuff and those are the the and again i don't mean to denigrate anybody it's just from what i've seen and from what i've seen second hand as well um you know you have it, it's so hard. I think one of the cons, the main cons of being at a reptile show for a consumer is it's a lot harder to kind of, uh, say no to those, um, impulse buys. You know what I mean? I agree with that. So, so I agree with that. I can guarantee you, I don't care about tropical species. They're too finicky.

For me, something that has to live in a... I think they would do so good in your area. They would. They do awesome in your area, right? I could do so many things outdoors if I wanted to. I just hate the jungle. I got you. I got you.

I mean, hey, I could throw some pop on carpets outdoors, you know, three quarters out of the year and they would thrive. Yeah. But I was so close to picking up a $50 cryptic looking beautiful yellow phase Amazon tree be Bella at this show. It wasn't even funny. I was like, you know what? I might go back for that then for hours after I left. And that was so stupid of me, but I can guarantee you that there was, you know, there was, there was, there was a half dozen of those things at this specific, at this specific table.

Well, there was 10 or 12 tables. They took up, God, 15% of this expo. It's a very small expo, so that's not saying much, but I can guarantee you there was a handful of people that were there that picked up a couple of those animals, and those animals are going to die because those are finicky animals to keep, especially by amateurs or by beginners beginners and that's the majority of the people that are walking through this and that doesn't really speak well necessarily for that particular vendor because they would steer clear people who didn't have the know-how to care for those animals if they had any kind of conscience but those were also the same vendor that were selling prairie dogs that were

selling uh you can get prairie dogs apparently they had over a dozen prairie dogs that'd be 65 a pop baby just don't get the plague you know exactly yeah the plague part sucks you know hey come on just make sure they don't have fleas all right but but uh uh and that kind of leads me to another thing you know you think of uh reptile exposed as a place where hey you know maybe i can get this for a little bit cheaper um i'm gonna save on shipping and you know they might also you know kind of cut me a discount since they're bringing it here and don't you think that's true, though? I mean, good doctor.

Wouldn't you say that you've sold some stuff a little bit cheaper just at the show so you didn't have to take it home? I used to. But now in this new world, man, it seems different because I saw an Emerald Swift that was obviously wild-caught adult, and it was $90. Now, I can guarantee you that's a 25 animal all day a wild caught okay you know and and this is the same table um you know tons of animals uh there

was uh there was and there was a couple they actually had a couple of carpets they had um and i was surprised that they called them Popowin carpet pythons. Um, but they were plain Jane and not very pretty, which I mean, granted no, no carpets are when they're born, but you know, four 50 a pop. I was like, Oh, that's a little steep. You know, when I could go to, I thought you were just talking about Popowin carpets in general. Well, when I can go to, you know, say, you know. Sorry, God. Sorry, Podfather. Sorry.

Sorry. I know I can go to Inland Reptile and get a beautiful lineage traced poppin' carpet python, you know, just normal for under $300, you know, around $300 to $350 shipped. Sure. With that reputation. So, you know, you think about these things and then i saw another one where it was brisbane carpet pythons i was like that's a little weird because those look like straight up just coastal carpet pythons and they're 450 a pop you know so so

dealing with the dishonesty of people that are trying to make a quick buck is pretty bad to deal with because you can buy a booth for, what, $10 to $20, $30, double booth, under $50, triple booth, less than $100, and you know you're going to come out. Those Brisbane's may have been legit, man. Huh? Those Brisbane's may have been legit. It. They may have, those Brisbane's may have been possible. It's possible.

I mean, it's, you know, it is possible. Yeah. The lady didn't seem so understanding about what was going on. And I started trying to find out pretty quick. Yeah. When I was trying to talk genetics with her, she, she was, it was kind of over her head, like a, like an airplane. Was that her, was that her booth? Or was it like her husband? her head like a like an airplane was that her was that her

booth or was it like your husband no no she was the one however it was strange though i i will say uh for a pro even though i'm not supposed to be espousing you know pros for this this argument um there was a guy uh that was actually part of the repticon i guess coalition that was running the front desk uh uh, for admissions. Uh, he kind of went behind there and was helping with her because she had a huge table and not a lot of help. Um, and there was a lot of people, you know, gathering around. I went, I went up to the, the admissions desk to kind of get stamped to go in. And, uh, you know, uh, I was like, how's it looking there you know you see anything from

australia and he's like oh well uh yeah yeah there's a little bit here and there uh i actually breed argus monitors oh no shit that was my first passion was monitors you know like i remember seeing like a komodo dragon take down uh water you you know, like, like, like, like an ox and a bison and just wait for it to fall down before it ate it alive. When I was a child on National Geographic and that was like, oh my God. Oh, oh, I love it. You know, it just, it just enthralled me, you know, this, this animal of like supreme, you know, uh, this animal of supreme predatorship. Yeah, it's an apex predator. Absolutely.

And even though you could walk up to it with a shovel and kill it, it's like it reigns supreme in its little atmosphere. But he was saying, hey, yeah, yeah, I breed Argus monitors and show me some pictures. Oh, okay, you have a booth up here or somebody that's working a booth for you? No. I was like, okay, you work Morph Market or anything like it? No, not really. I was like, okay, do you ship?

He's like, yeah, I could ship. And I got his information from him. And I was like, that's another one of those double-edged swords where it's like, man, you know, some of these people that are really invested in some of these species, which I'm not saying, you know, beginners or even intermediate people need to be purchasing an Argus monitor because that's a bedroom space type species but uh you know i'm i met somebody that that was interested in and breeding a species that i'm really interested in uh sure that wasn't necessarily

that's exactly to my point of why i think at reptile expos are absolutely because you can go and just find somebody that you never met and never and all of a sudden now whenever you see that person at any reptile you'd be like hey it's argus guy what's up man like you've hit like again like i said i had like 17 points for pros and 17 16 17 pros for cons and you've hit every single one of the pros and i agree with you a hundred percent like i was like man this is awesome why don't you see that because i sure as hell saw a lot of uh nile monitors sure and i can guarantee you that there were a lot of people that walked out of that thing thinking oh look at this cute little lizard and i can guarantee you that those sellers those vendors who are selling a mass majority of

diverse wild type species aren't necessarily letting those parents know that hey this thing could be a killing machine in like three years you know and maybe that's because there aren't like responsible keepers around maybe it's because there aren't people like me that aren't saying hey don't do that shit i mean so i i you know i've got a triple l near my house and that's that's my kind of local reptile shop i know all those guys in there real well i'm in there regularly getting bugs for for geckos and stuff and we talk and um you know i i mean well well i'm trying not to sit not to say that that's carte blanche uh those guys do a really really good job of steering people away of like uh i don't think that's a good that's a good decision and here's why um i you know i think

well i guess i would say why are they selling it then because professional keepers aren't going to buy those well because because there is a market for those. There are people who keep those. There's people who keep caiman and crocodilian. Is that an every person species? No, absolutely not. Should it be in an absolutely correct environment by the right owner? Yes, 100%.

But that doesn't mean that they shouldn't, you know, that they shouldn't be produced or that, you know, that that's an off limits thing. It just needs to be it needs to be to the right home. And I think anybody who produces crocodilian is very, very, very, very conscious of that that just like i think pet shops now because they don't want the animals back are very conscious of where those animals are going now can that happen sure it can happen but i i think a far more you know positive way to think about this and especially some of those big tables like l triple l do, do, do a lot of importing is that, you know, you used to never see captive bred, uh, tree monitors, but now you see them all the time. Well, why is that? Because

there's people who went to those tables, bought those, those wildcats, rehabbed them up, got them going and learned how to breed them. And then now that now we have, you know, they took a cue from the Europeans on how to do it and they, they put in the work and now we have, you know, bunch of people breeding captive bred tree monitors of the different species. So it's, you know, I, I think, you know, there's, there's always an easy example of the negative. And as somebody who's bred, you know, something that's,'s bred something that's imported and rare, somebody has to do it. And yes, there's a cost. There's a cost to importation.

And not everybody who buys it is going to be successful with it. And hopefully everybody networks and learns from each other's failures. And the only positives of social media help us do that. But but I think to look at importation, you know, as as a tree monitor, a green tree or black tree monitor, and a Nile monitor. You're talking about a $50 animal versus a $1,000 animal. Well, I mean, that's the challenge, of course. Sure. Once they stop importing those, they're going to go way up. Right.

And I'm sure it's a lot easier to capture a a land you know roaming monitor as a now monitor a lot easier than something that's so more so much more shy and quick and up in the trees um and i love you know the majority of the species that i'm interested in now are something that i would have to you know deal with being wild caught, or if not, extremely expensive. One of my bucket list species is a Spallater Selfish Atriceps, the royal black-headed snake, which is almost non-existent in the hobby in the U.S. I think there's maybe like three guys that are messing, well, maybe two now. I emailed a guy a while back, a few months months back that was probably about a year back now

hey you know I saw like a little page on him hey you know what's what's going on with this and that and he's like well I don't really breed those guys anymore but there's another guy that breeds them that I know of in New York and I was like okay I typed his name in and sure as shit something popped up on morph mark and I looked at it it's like oh it's a long time coming you know it's really rare opportunity to catch this uh female uh captain brett female twenty one hundred dollars oh shit you know but or or you know even even like less expensive species i like i'm really interested in uh hypsoglena torcata the desert night snake from america yeah you know an 18 there's a lot of overlipped overlooked species for sure you know uh and and i have no problem with wild caught uh wild wild wild reptiles uh absolutely not i just think that uh maybe they're i don't necessarily think that

there's a con to reptile expos i I think that there's like, there's maybe philosophically, I have problems with the way people conduct themselves, which is, you know, obvious to anybody that deals with people on a regular basis. Yeah. I was going to say philosophically, I have problem with people. Yeah. You know know that's why i'm known as the get off my lawn co-host i'm right there with you man i can't wait until i'm old and senile so i can flip people off you know and not be yeah yeah well you know i i think uh obviously there's there's you know it's a nuanced thing there's a lot of different uh aspects to to reptile shows and a lot of things that we shouldn't be doing at shows and that people do. And, and, you know, but for the most part, I think

people try to conduct themselves. I mean, obviously if you're going to mess up your own market, you're not going to have a market anymore. So you probably want to be responsible. So, you know, and, and how many adult Niles are out there of all these juveniles that are being sold for $50? Oh, I can guarantee you most of them are dead. Yeah, when we value animals based on their dollar amount rather than just the fact that they're living, breathing amazing things. Like Nile monitors are freaking cool. Oh, hell yeah. I would love to have Nile monitors if I had the space to provide for them. And so, you know, we need to try to minimize those negative effects and maximize the good stuff.

But this has been a great discussion. I'm going to have to – we're going on almost two hours, so we'll cut it off here. I apologize. I rambled. No, it's all good. No, good discussions for sure. And I apologize for ditching out here and there during the podcast. No, you're fine, man. You have a worthy excuse.

I hope your wife's doing all right. Oh, yeah. She's doing all right. But yeah, I'm going to bail here, boys. Well, thanks again, Miles, for coming on and fighting with us. So that was a lot of fun. And thanks for all the support from the Morelia Pythons Network and for the Podfather. Check out all their stuff on social media and all the good stuff. But also check out us. I'm Australian Addiction Reptiles, Justin Julander.

And Chuck, you want to throw your information? Uh, no, we, we don't really do that. I'm Chuck Norris wins on Instagram and I'm Chuck Poland on Facebook. Uh, yeah, I'm kind of working on a website, but I'm not ready to talk about that or anything. I just, it's been, so I, I just need to get on it. I'm not ready to talk about that or anything. I just, it's been so I just need to get on it. I'm, you know,

you know how your personal website thing can drag on. So I did update my website with, uh, information on the new carpet book. So if you want to do a preorder, uh, shoot me an email. The details are found on my website,

Australian addiction.com. But yeah, well, uh, we appreciate you listening. Uh, and, we'll catch you next week for another episode of reptile fight club. All right. For the doctor, yeah, well, we appreciate you listening, and we'll catch you next week for another episode of Reptile Fight Club. All right.

For the doctor, Chuck and Ruby, we love you, P. Call. Peace out. so Thank you. Bye.