Reptile Fight Club - Are Symposia and Conferences Devalued by Podcasts? w/ Matthew Wayne

Episode Date: June 6, 2025

In this episode we talk to Matthew Wayne about the question "Are Symposia and Conferences Devalued by Podcasts?"Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comIGFollow Rob @ https://www.instagram.com/highplainsherp/Follow MPR Network @FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQSwag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Alright, welcome to Reptile Fight Club. It is me, Justin Juhlander. How are you? With me is Rob Stone. How are you doing, Rob? I'm doing great. You're as close as ever. Exactly.

Yeah, well, good news over here. I've got some black eggs sticking out of, black heads sticking out of eggs. Black eggs sticking out of heads. I'm a little confused, but yeah, I'm very excited. My black-headed pythons are hatching, so I need to look closely to make sure they have regular-sized eyes because if there's some weird thing, genetic thing going on, I might have some words to...

Well, anyway, very cool. So just one is poking out so far. And of course, I'm leaving tomorrow. So that figures that they'd be coming out now. But yeah. So anyway, excited to be here. Excited. Things are hatching.

The season is beginning. And tonight we've got a special guest, Matthew Wayne. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for coming on. Absolutely. Thanks for having me guys. I huge fan of your show. It's so good. Appreciate it. I'm a fan of yours as well. I was just on your show last week. So yeah, this is a good time. So you've had some really cool guests and I don't know, I guess you can introduce your podcast. Tell us about that and how you started it and all that good stuff. Dr. Justin Marchegiani Yeah. So it's not another reptile podcast and it's,

you know, just general like reptile talk pretty much. You know, I try to cover like everything. Like this summer, I'm making a focus on like diving to like Ceylonians and monitors. So I've like dive into like Ceylonians and monitors. So I've, I had Anthony Pirlione on a few weeks ago and then I had Brian Duraaca who is the first guy as far as we know, who's ever bred like blue tail monitors. So that was really neat to learn that whole process and everything. And you know, I'm hoping, you know, I have Brian Laudelieu,

you know, the guy who hosts Monitor Fest, he's coming on, I think at the beginning of June, we're going to talk about like Lace Monitors. And you know, Mike Stefani is going to be, you know, joining too. So I've gotten a lot of, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm Mike. Yeah, he's such a, oh my goodness, what a humble guy. He's so cool. Like every time I get to interact with him and his wife, Karen, at NARVC, like they're

like, it'sC, they're so just genuinely nice, awesome people. So I'm really excited to have him on. And it's like, I get so ultra focused on one species where I have to remind myself, okay, the beginning of my show was very gecko heavy, and then I got snake heavy. And now it's like, all right, I'm not showing turtles or monitors that he loves. So now I'm like making it a focus to get them, you know, highlight some of those. So it's been, uh, yeah, no, it's been a, uh, you know, overall, like it's been really fun. It's neat because it's like, I think I always struggle with the idea of like, I'll hear somebody like, you know, Robin yourself, like, you know, you guys all the time

on NPR. And it's like, I want to reach out and say, man, you guys are awesome. Like I like reptiles too. You want to be friends, but I feel like awkward doing that. So I'm like, Hey, if I do a podcast, I have an excuse to talk to guys like you, you know, and it, uh, you know, so far it's been working. So I've gotten able to, uh, convince quite a few cool people to join me. So yeah, exactly. Yeah. Same, same for us, you know, like getting people on here, you get to know them and you kind of get form, you know, form a little communication network and yeah, it's great to meet new people and, and people who are just as excited as you are. And yeah, it's good stuff. So that's definitely one of the benefits of a podcast. Yeah, for sure. The pay stinks, but you know. Right. Yeah.

Luckily we've got Eric to do all the editing and all that good stuff. He takes good care of us. So we just have to record and he does the rest. So long live Eric. Yeah. It was funny. I did a joint show with the Ivers and Ty was telling me, she's like, yeah, I love doing them live because then I don't have to worry about editing or anything. Cause once we do it, it's out there and then I can, you know, kind of, it's just done,

you know? And I'm like, yeah, it's like, you know, I like to be able to like have a little bit of a ability. Like I like to mess with AI. So like I did for St. Patrick's day, I made like a funny theme song, you know, about leprechauns getting eaten by snakes or something goofy like that. You know? So it's like, I like to be able to mess with the, you know, the editing stuff

sometimes. But the live stuff though is definitely cool because you get to interact with the audience. But then it's like, I don't know, I always like get like, like tunnel vision. So it's like, if even if there are comments popping up, I don't even think I'd, it's not like I'm trying to ignore them, but I'm just so locked into who I'm talking to. I don't think it would really, you know, add anything to the show to the show. So I never do live or YouTube or anything like that. As a listener too, some of those podcasts where they're doing them live and they're like shouting out to everybody that's chiming in or something, you're just like,

okay, I don't need to hear who's there at that minute. That just seems kind of like a funny thing. But I guess they're like, doing super chats or whatever the heck that is, and even the money to talk. So I guess they deserve a shout out or whatever. But it's just kind of right. Yeah, I mean, not the dance. Yeah, right. I guess we do a few live shows here and there. I tried to do an anniversary show, we skipped this year. We were just too busy and missed it or something. But I like to have like a little game show thing quiz show or something and give them a free t-shirt or something to the winner.

But yeah, it's kind of a fun thing to do. So hopefully, well, I guess it's come. Oh, it's probably here now. It's May, right? It's May. Um, yeah, so we probably should do that soon here Yeah, yeah So hopefully in the in the near future will Then time just just flies by especially when you're an old man like me Yeah, I was a at my when you're an old man like me. Yeah, I was at my chair at work and I bent over to grab something, you know, off the floor and I threw my back out, my back. Oh no. And so it's been, you know, this happened on Monday and today I'm starting, you know, it was Wednesday.

I'm starting to feel a little better. Like I'm, I can move around and it's not painful anymore. But oh my gosh, I guess that happened to me when I, like I'm, I can move around and it's not painful anymore. But oh my gosh, like I guess that happened to me when I was younger too. So I can't say it's necessarily all because of age, but it's funny when you just make those little movements and all of a sudden your body says, Nope, you're not doing that. And then you pay for it for a few days. But, Oh, well, what do you do? That's a story of why I got out of motorcycles.

I used to ride motorcycles and then my back wouldn't, my, my back said no more. So I got rid of them because it was like, I'd go off for a ride that might've been, you know, scheduled for three, four hours and I'd be 45 minutes into it. And my back's spasming up on me. I'm like, and at the time I'm at, I was in my twenties, you know, I'm, I'm 39 now. And it was like, so embarrassing. Cause I'm with people older than me that are like, and I'm like, I don't.

You got to stop. Right. Yeah. I'm like, I got to turn around guys. This is not comfortable anymore. Well that's probably the easiest way to get out of motorcycle. I've heard a lot worse ways to get out of motorcycle riding. Oh, definitely.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's not gone wood. I never had any bad experiences on it. That's good. Except for my back being goofy. Yeah, it's not gone what I never had any bad experiences on it It's good except for my back being goofy. So yeah We had a former bull rider in our neighborhood and he was in a wheelchair like he was he was really a great bull rider and rode bulls for a number of years and then he retired and was You know fine and then all of a sudden he just started to degrade and was in a wheelchair and immobile when I met him he was. Like, you know, I you see somebody like that.

You think, oh, you know, maybe they they were born, you know, with something. But no, they thought it was from all the bull riding. Just messed up his nerves or whatever. Body just quit out on him. So kind of rough. Yeah. Yeah. It's got to be tough. Yeah. Yeah. It's gotta be tough. Yeah. I can't imagine.

Yeah. Well, don't get old. I guess that's the moral of the story. Right. Yeah. Hey, if you guys figure it out, let me know. Because I haven't come across the any of the fountain of youth yet, so I don't know.

Right. Yeah. I think Herpin keeps me young. There you go. It's funny how I can just keep going. I don't know. Right. Yeah. I think herping keeps me young. It's funny how I can just keep going. I don't need sleep or eat. I just herp and I'm satisfied and satiated. Yeah. Yeah. Good times. All right. Well, I don't know. How did you get into this whole thing? I mean, or where do you fit in and herpetoculture? Yeah. Like I don't, I've been keeping, I mean, reptiles pretty much since I can remember I grew up with a, you know, pretty like wildlife and, uh, influence

life. I had a creek that ran through my backyard. So there was always toads and daughter snakes and stuff. So like I always grew up catching animals and, you know, holding them for a couple of days and letting them go. And then, uh, you know, it just was always something that I guess you could say, like I always grew up catching animals and holding them for a couple of days and letting them go. And then it just was always something that I guess you could say I never grew out of it. I've always had some type of a reptile as a pet pretty much my entire life. And then it's like, as I got older, a little bit of my side story or whatever is I got really bad with drinking and substance abuse.

So once I decided to take that step and get sober, one of the biggest things that I realized I had like, you know, my tool belt, you know, to help keep me on the right path was I have this really strong passion with reptiles. And at the time I had a bunch of them. I really love fire salamanders. That's like a huge passion of mine. So like I had a bunch of really cool species and I was always like enthusiastic about them. But like, I never I felt like I really took my keeping and like my, my appreciation to them to the next level, because like, I kind of looked at it where it's like,

you know, these animals gave me so much. So I wanted to kind of make it a, you know, a point to myself to like give back to them if it's not to sound corny, but like, I really like, you know, there'd be days where it's like, you know, one, you know, that's, you know, cliche, but it's like one hour at a time. One, you know, one, you know, sometimes it's like, you know, literally one day at a time. So it's like, what can I do to keep my mind off of, you know, using again? And it was like, you know what, I have this enclosure that looks kind of like lame. So let me go to Home Depot.

Let me see what kind of cool plants I can buy. And I would just start slowly, you know slowly making all these really neat enclosures. And then it was just like, then I got a pair of Strophorus sminigerus, and then it opened up the Pandora's box of geckos. And now I have, I somewhat argue to say I have too many, but I still, there's still some room for more, but right now I'm just kind of embracing what I have and just enjoying the animals that are here. You know, and plus I'm in between homes right now. So once I get my next forever home, I think the, the, the, the Strophorus collection and

that's going to be kind of next on the, on the collection list, you know, to try to get what's available here in the United States. But yeah, I don't know. I would say my collection is pretty, pretty diverse. I have snakes, I have house snakes, and then I have a bunch of different fire salamanders and then the Australian geckos. And I have Japanese cave geckos as well. Those are really cool. So it's kind of a, you know, a hodgepodge of cool weather stuff and hot weather stuff. So all times of the year, there's always something to keep me busy. So it worked out pretty well.

Nice. Well, thanks for sharing that. I mean, nobody appreciates sobriety like a Mormon from Utah. So you're a good company. All right. That's awesome. Yeah. That's, uh, I I've always really been intrigued by those fire salamanders. They're really neat looking animals.

You know,'d love to see those in the wild. They're sweet. It's so crazy because it's like you said with your blackheaded pythons, you're going to be getting ready to leave soon. And it's like same thing. When I was getting ready to move, I had usually, I normally get larva during the winter and I had moved, I had sold my house in February, moved, I'm staying with my mom currently. I think within two or three days I moved here, all of a sudden the larva just started coming and it kept coming and kept coming and kept coming. Then it was weird because I have a species, a subspecies of the nomenles that I had thought they were done. And literally their first ones that she had dropped

have come, they had metamorphosis, I just took them out of the water. The very next day she deposited another larva. And I'm like, what is going on with her? You know, it's just like, I've never had, like, I think it was about eight week period from, and normally they're done within a couple of weeks, maybe a month, but I've personally never had them take that long.

This is uncharted territory, but she's healthy. She's eating. She doesn't look like she's got any problems. I just think those took a little bit longer to cook. They don't deposit eggs. It's fully formed by one of us. I think for whatever reason, those, how my understanding with their reproductive cycle is that, you know, they basically keep the eggs inside of them as they develop.

And then once they break out of that, you know, that little, you know, we want to call it the gooey bag. Yeah. Once they break out of that, that's like kind of her cue to, you know, go to the water and drop them. So I guess that those, the ones that took longer, just they were, you know, they developed slower than the other ones, but they, they look healthy. I was expecting them to be like deformed or something, but they're so far the, the last ones that I got there, they're eating, they look like what you'd expect

for a, you know, a normal, you know, fire salamander. So, you know, fingers crossed that these will go the distance. So, do you notice any difference in size or anything like that? No, totally. Yeah. It's weird because I did notice with the different species and subspecies, when they come out, they're all pretty much, in my opinion, they seem to be all about the same size. But then as development continues down the road, it's weird because my Soling Hills,

my Salamandra terrestrius, those ones are probably my smallest, but their larva, when they were getting ready to metamorphosize, they were the most robust. My nominals are a lot, they're just not as, I don't know, impressive looking compared to the... But it's funny because my nominals are some of my more bigger bodied ones, and when they come out of the water, they're the more dainty little ones. So it's, you know, it's a weird,

and they get fed the same. I did an experiment where I was doing baby earthworms for some and then black worms for others. And at first I noticed the ones that were on baby earthworms really took off, they got sized really quick, but then the ones that were on black worms did catch up. And then by the time they were starting to guys right now, they're coming out of water. I just took two out of their metamorphosis bin right before our call actually. And

as they come out, I don't see any difference in them. So I think the earthworm, just the sheer mass and whatever, kept floric intake really helps get them going. But then eventually they get to a certain size and that's as big as they're gonna get. That's crazy. Yeah, that's cool. It's fun to do those little experiments.

Did you weigh so the amount of black worms was the same weight as the earthworm? No, I have a, yeah, I absolutely hate black worms. I don't as the earthworm or no. No, I Yeah, I absolutely hate black worms. I don't know if you've ever dealt with them, but they're they're so disgusting So you have to keep them cold you daily have to like dump their water like what I do is I have this like goofy like fishnet where I dump them in Completely dump their little tub of water out run some underneath the sink and then put them back it there and then once they start To die they smell like decay. Like it's disgusting. Like I remember, I thought the basement in the middle of the winter time was going to be cool enough. I

didn't have to put them into a, you know, a refrigerator, but it like within two, three days they started dying off and it was like, you'd walk down there and I'm going through salamander bins thinking one of my salamanders died. No, they're all fine as the black worms. It's the black worms. Yeah. I'm like, I just can't wait to get them all on crickets. Once they get a little bit bigger, I'm just like, as soon as I can get the black worms out of the house, I'm like, the sooner the better.

Let's go over to crickets. How many offspring do the salamanders usually have, the fire salamanders? I've gotten as many out of a single girl, I would say upwards of like 15 or 16, but I've heard some breeders getting like some of the more bigger robust ones, like the ones from Portugal, like the Galecki, those old like I've heard people getting almost litters of like 30. So like just, you know, they can, you know, it varies like usually, and I think you see this across the board with a lot of herps is like when they first start breeding, their

litter or their clutch sizes are smaller. And then as they get more mature and you know, better at it, they definitely increase. So yeah, I could say my average right now is about 15 for animals. So yeah, that's, that's very manageable. I mean, a lot of amphibians have that like thousand eggs or something You know and you're like, what do I you know? I can't afford to feed all these babies and you know, and then what do you do with them once they you know? That's kind of a tricky thing to manage. I guess I guess if they lay eggs

You can manage it from that end just like keep a certain number of eggs or something because right well in that case I'd I'd give Rob a call and say, hey, can I buy some rhino rats from you? I got a bunch of amphibian tadpoles I need to call out. Buy a dragon snake or something. Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's cool. Fun stuff. Well, yeah, it's good to hear a little about your background. I mean, I've heard it from your podcast, but it's good to have it here. Have it on our podcast. So yeah, welcome and cool stuff. So yeah, Matthew, do you prefer Matthew or Matt? Oh, Matt, you can just call me that.

Okay. So Matt approached us with a topic to talk about here on the podcast. I mean, it was a really a good, you know, timely topic. So we're going to talk about symposia and if podcasts kind of supplant them or, you know, take the place of symposia. I guess it's fairly timely since tomorrow I'm leaving for the reptile talks. Obviously, I'm going to drive 12 hours to go listen to talks. I'm a little bit vested that way. I think I might know which side I lean towards, but we'll see what happens. So, uh, Rob and I will flip the coin to see who gets the pleasure of battling you tonight, so go ahead and call it.

Uh, tails. Tales. It is tails. You are on a roll, my friend. All right. Well, what, uh, would you like to do this evening? So I do have lots of thoughts going both ways. So in light of your timeliness, I will defer to you. Okay.

You can have the fight. But I do have thoughts on this topic because I really think it's a good one. I was super happy with it from Matt. Yeah. He's like, yeah, I hadn't thought of it. And yeah. I do think there's something to it, but there's still utility in going to these things. I can see it both ways. I'm excited for it. To be fair, I did not come up with this one. I was listening to her Petticulture podcast or the guys that are on that Animals at Home Network. I forgot what guest it was, but I was listening to it on the ride home.

And as soon as I heard them say that, I forgot. Gosh, I wish I could remember anyways. But I, my mind just started like, I zoned out of the podcast and I just kept thinking, like I have like thoughts both like on both sides of it, you know, so I've just like, I'm like, oh, this would be cool to listen to you guys fight about it. Then Rob's like, Hey, do you want to come on the show and you know, join us? And I'm like, oh wait this would be cool to listen to you guys fight about it. And then Rob's like, Hey, do you want to come on the show and, you know, join us? And I'm like, Oh wait, me? Like really?

Like, I mean, I would absolutely love to be on the show. I don't, you know, I'm like, yeah, I'm like, let's do it. So, but yeah, it wasn't, uh, it didn't, it didn't come naturally from me, but I thought it would still be a fun topic to discuss. So no, I, I think that's how a lot of our topics come up. We'll be listening to stuff or, I mean, That's kind of the idea of this is, or how this started was I was listening to podcasts and hearing people say these claims and nobody was challenging, nobody was looking at the other side.

So I'm like, how would it be if we had a podcast where you could hear both sides of the argument for different topics? So that's kind of how this was born. So yeah, that's the whole idea is taking ideas that we hear elsewhere and fleshing them out on both sides rather than just one-sided proponents. You know? Yeah. All right, Matt, you go ahead and call this one.

And I will go with heads. Heads, it is tails. So I guess seeing that I am going to attend a Reptile Talks, I will take that side that they are important and useful and even in today's hobby with lots of podcasts. So I'll give you the other side. And I will chuck you and let you go first. Okay, cool. Well, before we start, if I remember correctly, Justin, my beverage tonight is, you know, in honor of yourself, I believe you are.

That's the one. There you go. It was funny. I was thinking I'm a diet coke drinker and I'm like, wait, Justin likes diet Dr. Pepper. So yeah, in honor of yourself, sir. Oh, you're going to win for sure now. Fueling up on that stuff, yeah. Yeah, I've got my coconut cream, and I doctor Dr. Pepper Zero, same kind of thing. Nice, all right, so. Cool. But yeah, so, okay, so I'm on the side of podcasts

are replacing symposiums. Okay, cool, and it's funny, because I'm gonna be taking, I'm actually gonna be presenting at a symposium this year. So I want to preface that by saying I definitely think they are very important. So I, you know, but it's in the sake of a good conversation, I'll argue the other side. So, um, but yeah, like, so I guess my, my first thought that comes to mind with this topic is like, I always think back to like, when somebody gives me a timeframe and they say you're restricted to only talk about topic A for 20 minutes, a half hour.

I feel like that does a lot of disservice to the research or whatever the individual wants to present because I know myself, when I would present case studies on meteorology stuff, it was very almost annoying to me where it's like I wanna wanna like really get into like a lot of the nuts and bolts of this and why, you know, but it's like, you're taken away from the presenter,

I think by putting a time restriction on them where you're no longer able to really go into in depth as far as why that research was done or whatever the topic is. And I feel like that those constraints can really be a disservice to whatever the point is that the presenter is trying to get across, if that makes any sense.

Sure, yeah. I definitely think the long form of podcasts are a definite benefit in that regard because you can really flesh things out and talk about things very broadly. So I do think that is definitely a benefit of the podcast format. That being said, I think being also a scientist and having to communicate my science, and if you can't communicate it in 15 to 20 minutes,

aside from maybe like a really broad topic, usually, you know, we were talking about focus studies or something like that. So you should be able to get that across. You get your point across and get the importance of it across in 15 minutes. Also in our, in our society these days, we're watching Tik Tok videos, you know, I'll post a full length video on my YouTube page and it gets like 30 views and I'll post a short and it gets a couple thousand views in a week or something. So it's, I think our attention spans are short and we just want to hear the, just give me the gist, like give me the important part or else I'm scrolling past you, you know, I'm going to the next video. So I do think if you can get together a well-thought out, planned out talk that covers the topic you're covering and you can get a few

salient important points across, I think that's very valuable and helpful for our limited attention spans. And then also usually there's a chance to ask questions or to visit with the person afterwards and that's what these things are all about. It's really, I guess, well, I'll save that topic for also I'll leave it at that for now. Well, and I'll interject real quick, right? So I think you both made great salient points there. The first I would say is that not all podcasts even give that sort of context or that opportunity to go long form.

I think we've kind of forgotten now, but in the Reptile Radio days, they would act as though there was a hard out in an hour, 45 minutes or an hour, an hour and a half, something like that. It would just sort of be getting going. And I think that feeds into the point you're making, Justin, where it's like sometimes having that time constraint forces you to be conscious with your actions and inaction in terms of what you're talking about and to be really deliberate and say, okay, these are the salient points that I need to hit as opposed to just sort of flailing about and then it's upward time and it's like, well, we just got there.

Right. And I think too, a lot of times people will fill the time with other things, right? So they'll tell their story, and that's cool. I mean, it's cool to learn about people and hear about them. But if you're there just to hear about the type of reptile they keep and you're not really interested in their life story, or if you're going back to listen to it, you got to skip forward to try to find the important topics that they discuss or I don't know, it used to drive me crazy with the THP guys when Justin would just like have these huge pauses and he'd be like, you know, like you'd hear, uh, uh, just all sorts of stuff going on in the background. Like what is happening? Like what, what is this? You know, this is not great audio, but, but it would be three hours, but you'd have

to really kind of skip ahead to, you know, that kind of thing. So, but I, you know, you take it, take it, take it or leave it or skip ahead. I guess that's the nice thing is we've got a 30 second skip button that makes it pretty easy to find what you need to find. Yeah, and to that point, I think that speaks to kind of the re-listenability of a podcast versus going to a symposium where,

I can't tell you how many times I'd go to like, you know, like a meteorological, you know, based event and somebody would present some really cool research and there's really, the only way to get that is basically if you recorded it yourself or you go and find their publication. And I felt like with me, like, especially as I was like, not so much when I like in the professional world, but like as a student, I felt like with me, like, especially as I was like, not so much when I like

in the professional world, but like as a student, I felt like the the person presenting the information versus reading it in a paper was so much more, you know, like, just hearing that the personality come through it and like the digestibility and how to take in that information, because sometimes some of the topics like, for example, like when I had Kailon, when we really did like a cool in-depth talk on, you know, breeding the Egyptian false cobras. And it was like, and I like, I'll re-listen to that show because it's like, I just felt like there was so much there

that like to do it, that one, just to listen to it that one time, I forgot, I already forgot 50% of it. So it's like having that at my fingertips where I can go back, or like when you guys had on, and I forget his name, but the amphibian scientist who was talking about like Kitchard and stuff like that, like, oh my gosh, that was so good.

But there was so much information in that podcast where it's like, I'll re-listen to it constantly, not constantly, but you know what I mean? Like I'll re-listen to it multiple times because it's like, you know, that availability of having it constantly, not constantly, but you know what I mean? Like I'll relisten to it multiple times because it's like, you know, you're, you're, you just, that availability of having it there, I think is like to have it cataloged as such a, you know, a powerful thing in itself, you know? Yeah. And I think too, like there can be maybe a, a mix of both where, uh, Alan Rapasci and Philippe Devosje put on the Repta- Herpeton, sorry, Herpeton. How he's getting

Repticon, Herpeton, it's all mixed up. But Herpeton, and I think the reptile talks are kind of a continuation from that, the next stage of that, but where they put a lot of the talks on YouTube. And so, you know, it's kind of a mixed bag because you want people to come out and attend because that promotes more discussion and things. And they actually had kind of like a group discussion where they said, hey, you know, we went over a lot of topics here. Let's kind of summarize or find some salient points

where we can put things into action. And so it was kind of like a town hall type meeting where at the end of the conference, we all just kind of sat around and talked about like local herp chapters or different things we can do to help with reptiles and people that are interested in reptiles and laws and things like that, supports for local reptile communities. So it was really kind of a cool thing. And I think that's one of the benefits of those kinds of things is that the community,

you're face to face with people, you're getting to talk on the side with people. There's like a mixer at the very first of it where you're meeting the other attendees. There was other events, like I think they had a dinner and an auction and stuff like that. So cool stuff that you're not going to get on a podcast, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, and that's the biggest thing that I think I have going against me

to further your point though, is those interactions that you get with people at conferences and stuff are so invaluable. You know, I mean, I can't tell you how many times I would, as a student, I'd be like, I see this research paper and I think it's important, but I don't really get it. And then you talk to the scientists who wrote it. And then it's like, you know, they explain it

or just that interaction really like makes you, I don't know, it like relights that passion and that fire is back, you know, and still did you. And I definitely agree, like with the podcast, like there's some that that personal aspect of it is removed, you know, because it's just, you know, it's just you're just listening to it. And it's like, I remember with you guys, there's so many times where I'd be in the car driving

and you guys would be talking and it's like you're talking to the speaker and it's like, what am I doing? Like, you know, I'm like, you know, but it's like, but and it's like at a conference, you get to have those interactions with people, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I guess I've been a part of a couple that were, that should have been stellar, you know, like, so we met at the Gecko Symposium at Tinley and that was a really well done

conference, right? There was a bunch of attendees, great speakers. I mean, you know, aside from myself maybe, but like a lot of different good material presented. And then, you know, there was opportunities afterwards to kind of mix and mingle and there was time at lunch and stuff. I put on one back in 2011 or somewhere around there on Carpet Pythons, because we had the first edition of the Carpet Python book and there were maybe 20 people that attended. And I mean, we had like Terry Phillip come and speak and it was, I think Eric Burke gave a talk and it was like his first year.

I was going to say, Eric made it sound like it was some grand spectacle, you know, in front of you. Yeah. I mean, it was cool. And there, you know, there were a few people there, but like I was expecting a lot more people because, you know, you think, oh, this is a huge, this is the biggest reptile show in the country. And then why aren't people coming and listening to talks about, you know, cool, cool species?

Yeah, it was a little frustrating, you know, and then we did one in Anaheim that was put on by Bob and Russ Gurley at the Anaheim show, the other Bob shows called the NARBC shows. And so they put on one, they had like Aaron Bauer, who's like the foremost authority on Geckos. He publishes all these papers on Geckos and he was speaking and I was all psyched. I wasn't speaking at that one, but I was excited to attend and like other notable attendees like Casey Lazik and some people are in the audience. But again, there were like 15 people. So whether or not it was, you know, I don't know, partly you had to go pay 20 bucks to park because it was in Anaheim, you know, like anywhere you go,

you're going to be paying for parking. So I guess people didn't want to pay the extra money or they were, and it was after the show. So people were off doing dinner. Yeah. And so I think people just have their routines at reptile show. So I think it's, it's a great opportunity, right? It's a good time where people are coming to the show anyway, but you really have to kind of plan it or time it well. Um, or else you wind up with, with that kind of scenario where you, you know, you've brought in these wonderful speakers, but there's nobody to listen to their awesome talks. So that's a point for you, of course, but the downside of these symposia sometimes are

low attendance. Really takes a special kind of planning to make them happen well. So I guess I wasn't great at that. But it seems like that's partially an issue right with where it's an add-on to it though, as opposed to being right this weekend you're going to something where that that is the the entire event. I remember in the Morelia-Python's context, right, it

was the Arboreal Symposium. Yeah, Ben made it to that one, but I didn't make it out. I kind of regret. Yeah, I didn't make it either. Yeah. But they talked about it for literal years, but that was sort of the principle aim of that was, hey, we're going to go do this. I think maybe on the second day, there was people could have... There was some sales.

... there was some sales amongst that small group or whatever, but the principle driving force of it was, hey, we're going to small group or whatever but the principal driving force of it was hey We're gonna have these talks and get together and stuff And it seems like those tend to not have issues with people not turning up right because you're going to be for that. Yeah Yeah, I think that's I mean Those kind of things are Somewhat difficult because again, you know Are people gonna spend a lot of money to fly or drive out

or, you know, those kinds of things. And it's maybe hard to get attendance. So you try to have it somewhere fun where people are gonna wanna come anyway and, you know, have it at a good herping spot, like, you know, this spot. I remember the first herpeton, as soon as like, well, even before the talks, I remember Jeff Lem was talking,

it was a great talk, but I'm like, I want to go herping. So and it's the sun is setting in like an hour and it's going to take me an hour to get there and I want to be there right at sunset. So I took off in the middle of his talk and headed out to the desert on my own, you know, and there were some other guys out there that went herping and stuff, but I wanted to find Chionactus and shovelnose snakes. I wanted to find a few other, maybe a rosy bow or something. It was excellent herping. There were a ton of snakes out just everywhere. So it was really great. But I missed out on the rosy bows, but I found a few Chionactus. So that was cool. But yeah, great herping. I'm

glad I left the talks, but I guess the moral of the story is end at least a couple hours before sunset so people can get out and hurt. But I guess that's the other side of it is it's hard to keep people around to chat when there's herping to be done, at least for somebody like me. And in those herping destinations, right? Yeah. I can speak to it. Tinley isn't exactly, especially in October is not. Especially the timing. Yeah.

Yeah. We just did March, the last show. It was like, what? I think the first day was 80 and then on Sunday it was snowing. So, you know, yeah, we're, we're as far as, yeah, destinations go. It's, I definitely think that's, you know, as a,'re we're as far as yeah destinations go It's I definitely think that's you know, as a if somebody's planning a symposium like that's what I you know Shameless plug for IHS but like I really think they do such a good job of like really, you know They do that extra legwork to find not just like a cool place to hold a conference

But like what else is there, you know, and they try to from my understanding is they try to like, you know Format it so that there's opportune perping areas, plus you have some type of a zoological component to it. So we're going to go to Ty Park's place at Guano Land and he's got Peronis there. So to me, it's just like, that's what I want to see. I'm sure he's got a lot of other cool stuff, but I mean, cronies, come on. So it's like, I think that it's almost kind of like a double edged sword where it's like, you want to try to pull people away from the retail side at a convention.

People are there to buy reptiles, hoping that their passions are going to carry them into this more of a talking event. But then at the same time, it's like, yeah, but if their motivations are strictly there to get whatever animal A, B or C, what is the, you know, what's, what's that audience realistically, you know what I mean? Is it even worth, you know, like, that's what I thought they did such a great job with the gecko symposium. They did it the day before. So there was no competition with the show in itself, if that makes sense. You know?

Yeah, yeah, you're already, I mean, and where it's kind of a cohesive thing like that with the with a pretty wide and broad audience You know you had a lot of people that would would have hung out anyway And so why not just hang out at the symposium and you know sit by each other at the tables or whatever You know, and I think that think that's a key thing. Alternatively, I think too, if we have like, I remember Jason Hood had me come out and give a talk at the Chicago Herpetological Society's meeting. That was many years ago, but that was really cool to meet that group and talk about Australian pythons or whatever.

Then I got to go do a little herping and hit some zoological institutions and things around Chicago area. So really a cool thing. I think that's another opportunity where people aren't having to travel far. It's a local, it's a benefit for the local society. If they're paying dues, they get to see, get something for their dues. They're getting a talk or that kind of thing.

So it's a really a nice way to do it too. Although then you have a much narrower audience, you don't have the broad audience. So, yeah. Well, and I think, too, which is like one thing that they can almost kind of feed off each other. I think you can almost use the podcasting format to generate excitement and get people. Because people are going to seek out our shows are, you know, I would genuinely think they're very enthusiastic about whatever animal that we're talking about. So it's like, you can use that to kind of almost instill that excitement to the listening

audience. So maybe if they have extra PTO and they're like, hey, but I think the downside, which I'm totally guilty of is like, I think if there is a symposium that's maybe seven, eight months out, that's when you need to start, that's when me as a podcaster, I need to start talking about it more. Because if you wait till the week or the month before, not everybody has that luxury of being able to drop stuff on a dime and take off in a month to go to wherever destination. So I think if it's done correctly, it is from a podcasting format. It could be very beneficial to both the podcast in itself plus the symposium or whatever conference

that's taking place as well. Yeah. And I think if you have somebody charismatic organizing, who's connected and people want to be associated with and they're reaching out, hey, are you coming to the symposium? It's gonna be great, you know, here's the lineup and, or, you know, that kind of thing. I think that's really a great part of it too. If you have somebody that can organize it,

that's really gonna bring in the crowd. I think that's helpful too. Yeah. Yeah. And like one point too, like, you know, for, I guess for the podcasting side is like the, the one thing that I really enjoyed, like, and, and not, and it shouldn't say, and it's not anything wrong by it, but I feel like the, the emphasis, like on podcasts where if you can have the host keep

the, the, the guests focused and keep on topic, like, I think there's so much like more beneficial information where it's like, there's nothing wrong if you wanna have that laid back format. But I think like I'll hear like a podcast and the show's headline will be whatever animal. And then the actual animal itself might be talked about for 10 minutes.

And then the rest of it, you know, and I'm totally guilty of it. I do it all the time because it's like, I have this obsession with wanting to go to Australia. So it's like, you know, and I'm totally guilty of it. I do it all the time because it's like, I have this obsession with wanting to go to Australia. So it's like, you know, I'll have anybody that's on my show that has been to Australia, it always divulges into that. But, you know, I do try to at least, you know, get a little bit in depth, you know, with animals,

because the other thing too, that I think I would like to see the podcast community do a better, not actually a better job, but now this is me being selfish. It's like, you know, when they're asking a question of why do you keep species A, B, or C, it's not just like how, but like why did you do that? Because I think the motivations as to why somebody's

doing it without that generic answer of, well, how I keep it in Arizona is gonna be different than you keep it in Chicago. It's like, well, okay, yes, we've heard that now 100,000 times emphasized in podcasts, but like, but why did you choose to keep it on, you know, sand instead of a mixture of sand and oh, I don't know. Okay, well, let's talk that out. Like, you know what I mean?

Like, and I think that like the podcast, the reptile podcast community, I feel like that, like Eric and Owen, like I remember told Eric this, where it's like, I started listening to NPR older episodes, like how in the world did a show last so long that's so focused on the genus, you know, Moralia? And it's like, because they did such a good job of, even though everybody has kept, they've talked about whatever species a hundred times,

but they do such a cool job of getting their guests to really open up as far as what motivated them to keep the way in which they do instead of the generic, well, it's Arizona, so I don't have to worry about heat. It's like, okay, but you know what I mean? I always think that that's something. At least in my show, I really try hard to strive for the why, not just the how. Right. And I think that, you know, again, kudos to Eric and Owen for, Eric would send out kind

of the topics that he wanted to discuss. So you had a time to think about it and to prepare a good answer. And I think, I mean, they've refined their methods and they do a fantastic job of asking the right questions to get those good answers. And I know they've struggled through some difficult guests where it's like pulling teeth to get these answers from. So that can be a challenge.

And we need to give them a little credit sometimes for even the rough shows. Sometimes it's just a train wreck and there's nothing you can do about it. We've had those experiences ourselves. But the fact that you prepare, have well thought out questions and the guest is aware of what you want to discuss, I think that's really a helpful thing. Especially for that kind of question answer, like the how do you keep stuff or why do you like this species or what,

those kinds of things. I think that's really critical. Unlike this podcast where it's just fly by the seat of your pants, but hopefully have some good information. Right. I need to listen to myself because I do such a bad, unless somebody specifically requests like an outline for me, I normally like, when I reach out to people, like I always say like, you know, do you want an outline? If so, I'll provide one if not, you know, but then it's kind of like, I don't know, I feel like I need to do that just, you know, to keep the, because also too, it better focuses the show, you know, where it's kind of like, I don't know, I feel like I need to do that just to keep the...

Because also too, it better focuses the show, where it's like... Because sometimes it's like, okay, I remember when I had Nipur on, it was awesome because he had requested an outline. And it was great because it allowed me to know, okay, there's like, maybe if we don't answer these six questions, there's five that I really do want to make sure I ask him. And it's like, it keeps me as the host a lot better on track versus instead of it just going sideways. And next thing you know, we're talking about the why punk rock music is not punk anymore or whatever randomness that can come out of a podcast. But at the same time, some people really do enjoy that. Sometimes it's a weird line that you got to walk as a host, how much is too much and how much is not enough.

And flexibility within that structure is super important to the extent of what you really highlighted there was, hey, these are the five things I really want to hit on. You're never sitting there wondering what you could ask. You're never going to dead end into something. You could always redirect someplace. But I mean, we've seen it with podcasts that are otherwise great, but you wind up with like they are so committed to the outline that they yada yada people dying on her expeditions and things.

And it's just like, how did you not follow up and say, hold on a second, let's take a step back. That sounds interesting. To fully understand what it is that you mean when you say that. In this specific context was Marco Shea and he's talking about, well, it'll be in some place for six months and anything can happen within six months. And it was, oh, yeah, you got malaria or you got hit by a bus or whatever it is. But it's like hearing that, we all hear it through our own lens and it's like, I'm imagining, okay, well, I take three

to seven day, eight day, Justin, two to three week Herb trips. If someone dies in that context, that's a huge deal, obviously, versus six months or whatever. Mark's just like, oh yeah, people have died on three different expeditions that I've had and this was as of years ago. Hopefully the number remains a three, But because the person was so insistent on like, okay, well my next question is this, he wasn't actively listening. And that's the only thing that could have you not naturally follow up and say, hold on, please elaborate.

Yeah. And I think too, in regards regards to questions and answers, you know, and after a talk, sometimes, you know, especially if it's like a very in-depth or scientific talk, I think people are a little scared or intimidated and so they're not going to ask it. Or I remember the first time I was at a symposium in Australia and Rick Shine was in attendance and I was like, I couldn't go up and talk to him because I was too nervous or too awestruck or whatever. And I regret not taking that opportunity to go say what's up or whatever. You're afraid you're going to look like an idiot so you don't ask a question. That could be a really good and poignant question.

So I don't think we run into that as much on a podcast because the host is preparing, wanting to ask certain questions or guide the topic in a certain direction. So those kind of things can, again, that's probably more for your side, but that's one thing to be aware of at a symposium, like go ahead and ask the questions, that's what it's for, that's why you're there is to delve a little deeper and to get to know the person and why they are doing things the way they are or whatever. One thing that I think can occur in both contexts, so I think maybe both of you can make, hopefully it's a jumping off point for both, is I do think there's sort of a captive audience effect

that can happen either in the context of a podcast or at a symposium, particularly a symposium, right? Assuming it's not the last show of the day before you're trying to get out for golden hour herping. You know, you're basically like, okay, I'm committed to coming here and listening, and there are gonna be papers or topics that are not necessarily within my wheelhouse and in the same way on podcast. We're like, okay, I just, I know Matt's show

is reliable that I find it interesting. So I'm going to listen to stuff, even if it's a guest or a topic that doesn't naturally strike my fancy, hell, I'm going to give this shot and give it a listen. Right. And so I think there is some benefit to both those things. right? And so I think on it, go ahead. No, I fully agree. And I think, you know, some things that I may not have had that much interest in or maybe didn't think was that cool. I think somebody that's very passionate about it and kind of highlighting the amazing things

that they've seen or watched this thing do or learned from their keeping of this animal can kind of draw you in and make you go, oh, maybe I do want to keep tortoises or that kind of thing. So it can be a dangerous thing too. But also I do think that, especially in person, that excitement is kind of contagious. And also I think we get encapsulated in our little sphere, maybe not Matt because he's got such a broad interest and I think all of us here have broad interest in a lot of different herbs, but we may specialize in certain ones, but we're still very interested, especially in learning about others or seeing them in the wild and things like that. So I don't think I would recommend getting out of your little sphere and expanding your

area of interest and learning about other herbs because there's a lot of things that are applicable to the species you like and keep, even if they're completely different or out there a little bit. So, and I think just an appreciation for nature in general. I mean, I was watching that, the Americas again, another episode, I think it was on the Appalachians maybe or maybe the West Coast. I can't remember, but they showed an arboreal salamander that crawls like 50 feet up a tree to find a mate. And then when it doesn't work out, he just like jumps and like flies through the air

and lands in the leaf litter, starts climbing up the next tree. It was incredible footage. Like they had to have been way up in these trees with their cameras, you know, ready to film. So pretty amazing. But yeah, that kind of stuff is just cool. So hearing about those kind of things in person, it's hard not to get excited about them.

Right. And it's funny, I tend to do this a lot because I've learned so much working my program, but in AA we always say, look for similarities and not differences. And I think when I listen to a reptile podcast that's on a topic of something that I might not necessarily keep, like kind of going back to your guys points, you know, it's like, but yeah, but there could be nuggets of knowledge in that, that could be, you know,

or it might not even be like useful or beneficial exactly at that moment in time, but it could get my brain thinking, you know, oh, wait, maybe, you know, cause I can't tell you how many times I've listened to something about, one thing that I used to nerd out a lot about was like different water, with amphibians,

do you know, spring water versus tap water and so on and so forth. And it's like, I was finding myself reading all these weird journal papers on just like the composition of like different pipes and why copper and this and that and all this stuff. And it's just like, you know, to a reptile nerd, you might be like, who cares?

Like whatever, it's a water system that we turn on the faucet and you get water out of it, whatever. But it's like, you know, but in that, you know, there's the, because, you know, you look for the similarities and then not the difference. It's, I don't know, I just like to pull whatever I can out, you know, because I think though part of it too is, you know, it could be limiting because I think sometimes

it can be a daunting task, you know, where it's like, I think if you're starting out in the hobby and you hear somebody mention the word bioactive, it's like so overwhelming because you're like, wait, I need special substrate, I need plants, I need to get these little bugs now, like what, I just want a frog, like what is going on here, you know? So like, I think though, you know,

having that outlet, you know, for the creativity of the individual who set up that enclosure to really go into like, you know, if you're gonna keep the species, you know, start small, you know, and then build your way up to something really complex. And I think that like, you know, in a podcast forum, you know, if you're talking about like, well, like the day that I'm doing my presentation is going to be like on fire salamander, you know, Karen stuff, but it's like, it could be, you know,

it's going to be a quick, you know, dropping the, you know, a flash in the pan. And it might, if somebody is interested in them, and they hear that, they're like, Oh, wow, there's way more to this than but it's like, and I think like, with a podcast, you're able to really, you know, again, going back to the why and not how, because then once you logically or critically think about it, it kind of almost, it leads that person, it almost forces them to take care of the animal the proper way, if that makes sense. Right. Yeah.

I, I think, uh, what was the point there? I had a really great thought and then it just left my brain, of course. And feel free to tell me to shut up. I talked to myself. No, no, no, that was the thing. You mentioned the bioactive thing. I remember hearing somebody talk about

how they bred this hard to breed species. I can't remember which one it was. They all kind of blend in in my mush brain or whatever. But they were talking about how the isopods would find the eggs and snack on the eggs and ruin a clutch of rare reptiles. And they wish they never would have put the isopods in their enclosure. It's like they're not worth having in there. I'd rather just pick up the poop than try to get an isopod because they're eating my eggs. And that's something maybe people don't consider. Here's the downside of isopods.

They might eat your eggs. Well, it's not like pods, right? It's some species, not others. And some egg, some species of egg or whatever, as opposed to others, right? Heart-felt, soft-shelled, all these different factors and constraints. And then you look at it and say, well, were they infertile? And it only actually happens with infertiles, but you didn't realize that on the front end or whatever. And I think that comes into the point of asking the right questions and fleshing those things

out, which can be, I know, and fleshing those things out, which can be, I guess, done in both settings, but you know, that's the important thing, is ask questions and guide it to answer questions that you might have or that, you know, might not be well known. And you know, a lot of times the answer is I don't know. You know, and I think what I also find too too is people that, how do you say this without being rude,

but like that think they're an expert, they almost have a little bit of Dunning-Kruger syndrome, where they think they know more than they do. So you ask them a question instead of them looking like they don't know, they're going to give you an answer whether it's right or wrong. That's kind of dangerous too. And then that can happen in either scenarios, whether it's a podcast or a symposium. also as listeners and attendees need to either ask hard questions or you know like ask or take things with a grain of salt. You know I know there's a lot of a lot of people out there that consider a lot of the reptile stuff trade secrets and so they're not going to tell you the right

answer because they don't want you to be their competitors. So when you say, oh, how do you breed or keep this species, they're going to tell you the opposite of what you're supposed to do. And sometimes you have to learn the hard way like, oh, they were lying to me. That's not what you do. And so there are people out there that will do that. So you have to be aware and not just take expert, you know, Jim, because he bred this certain species. And so now he's the end all be all of information because he may be not sharing the whole story

or intentionally misleading you. So you know, that that that's a possibility. I think it's happening less and less these days as as knowledge gets out there, which is a good thing. But I still think that can happen. Well, absolutely. Both of the venues are intended to be sort of antidotes to the care sheet mentality, where you're getting into that why exactly as you guys are talking about in that depth. And I would say too, right, that it takes, for the most part, most people are not so seeking to deliberately mislead that they'll

be on a podcast and able to mislead people in the same way that they could if they just put out their care sheet or that one cryptic forum post or whatever it is that sends people in the wrong direction. If you're actively talking for two hours, it's a lot harder to be, you know, off, off-truth, you know, on-brand, off-truth or whatever, I would say, in kind of in both contexts. But yeah. Yeah. And like going back to the expert point, I'll never forget this is I remember one of the like world, like leader, that expert, or I hate that term expert, but our world, the world leading authorities and severe weather had told me once, I'd asked him a question

about tornado genesis and I'm like, you know, his name was Dr. Doswell. He has passed since then. But I remember asking him and he goes, Matt, he goes, I hate it when people call me an expert. I'm like, well, what do you mean? I'm like, you've written like eight, you look up Dr. Doswell, every severe weather paper is pretty much published by him. It's insane.

And the guy's like, the guy basically just goes, you know what an expert is? And I was like, what? He goes, break it down phonetically. An ex is a has-been and a spurt is a persistent drip of water. He's like, I hate the term expert because if you achieve expert status, that means you've learned everything

that there is to learn about that topic. And he goes, with science, it's always evolving. There's always new technology. And he's like, anyone who's gonna tell themselves that they're an expert is doing a giant disservice to themselves because then that means you stop learning. So it's like, I get so like, and I don't say discouraged, but I like, it's in my mind, I always do like a mental

like eye roll where I'm like, okay, if you're gonna come on a show and say you're an expert, I'm like, really, like, okay, like, sure, yeah, right. Maybe today you are, but guess when that new whatever heat device comes out are you're are you still an expert then probably not because nobody else has it so let's you know what i mean you know yeah and i think anybody who doesn't understand that the more you learn the more you learn you don't know a lot you know and that's the truth of it you know so anybody who thinks oh I've got it all figured out You know, I know everything there is to know about this subject. I would not trust that person

Well, I love it with Joe hub said on eyes a gecko exchange podcast they had a great interview with him where he had said like You know when you're talking to a breeder and if you kind of know Maybe you know the answer to a question still ask them it anyway and see how they respond to it. Because if they give you a generic thing or if they don't go in depth or whatever, maybe think about buying it from somebody else because you want somebody who's not just

trying to flip an animal. Because unfortunately that's such a staple of a lot of reptile shows is the animal flippers where they don't really know anything about the animal. It looks cool. They stick it in a cup and send it on its way. And it's like, yeah, but, you know, a little Johnny or little Sally, who's getting their first weird little lizard and that dies,

that kid could be the next Steve Irwin. And now they had a bad experience with this wild caught animal that was loaded with parasites. Now that could be so detrimental to their passion that they might not even want wanna ever keep another reptile. And it's like, did we just, you know, stunted a potential, you know, we don't know. You know, that's the beauty about like what,

you know, going back to IHS is they do, you know, a point for, you know, symposiums is they're gonna highlight this, you know, they do like a junior herper thing where they're gonna highlight like kids that are passionate with reptiles and stuff. And it's how cool is that? You know, it's like these, as a little map growing up,

if I could have been involved, I mean, I still am really into reptiles, but who knows, I might have not even dabbled in meteorology. I might be working in a zoo right now. You never know. And it's like, I just think that there's so much potential that is left out on the table, that if a symposium is done properly,

and you try to be inclusive and not just, you know, appeal to the science journal, you know, writers and the authors and stuff, and you try to bring in, you know, the zoological industry and, and the, you know, and the, the, the, you know, the hobbyists, if you would, you can really do something really special. And I think IHS hopefully is, you know, I've never been to one, but it sounds like they do a good job of, you know, capturing that. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think too, like I know the reptile talks are going to have, you know, talks about, you know, field studies and captive animals and zoological collections, that kind of thing. So I think there will be a similar mix there. So I'm excited to see what will be presented.

But Ian, they have a few of the talks online as well, but the titles anyway. But I think you mentioned Steve Irwin, and I just watched a few old Steve Irwin episodes and I might get stoned for saying this, but don't hate me for saying this, but a lot of the stuff that's in that show is set up. It's not real. It's a TV show. I think sometimes those performative aspects or people who are trying to make a buck off their YouTube channel or get a TV show made or something, they're going to be the over-hyped

or they're going to plant an animal so they can find it in the wild and talk about it and stuff. And that's fine. It was great entertainment and I was entertained by it and educated by it. Steve Ruhn did a good job of getting people excited and passionate about things. But rewatching them and having herped Australia several times kind of makes you go, that wasn't real. That giant overweight animal is not wild and that kind of thing. So it was a little kind of sad to realize that in some way, because when you first watch that, it's magical and it's exciting and that kind of thing. But then you realize, it doesn't really happen like that.

That's not real life. You don't just drive and find a clutch of green tree pythons hatching in a bush on the side of the road, that kind of thing. So anyway, I mean, for all the good Steve did, there are some aspects that I'm a little like, I don't know that that should have been done that way or something. I guess I prefer the Mark O'Shea model where you may never... Yeah. Yeah. It just draws such a contrast with Mark's thing of like, we're going to find it or not. It's the challenge of doing it.

And those are the YouTube channels and the podcasts and things that I really enjoy too, is not, oh, coming, you know, hearing all about your success. That's great to highlight your success, but, you know, that success is a product of really hard work or planning, you know, and and planning and time and all these things. I get what you're saying in terms of YouTube shorts and things that people have the short attention span, but when you really go into the breadth and speak truth to the level of effort and things that were involved with that, that content is so much... At least for me, that's the content that I'm seeking out.

Don't just show me five days in 10 minutes, where all the good stuff or whatever. It's like, no, speak to how difficult it is. Most people won't have the chance to do that. Showing that level of difficulty kind of expresses that in a way that is lost in YouTube shorts and Instagram posts and things like that. Yeah, and I mean, granted, I don't want to watch a two hour video where they walk around

and hurt for real for, you know, to definitely show me a little bit of that. Right. To show the channel. You know, we had Blaine Mazzetti on and I really like how, you know, he does a good job. It's a good mixture of both and then it'll be okay I'm gonna do it for another hour and then he throws up on there the last snake seen or whatever it was before. So then it's like well yeah you didn't have to watch for an hour him not finding anything but you know that he went for an hour and didn't find anything. Both those things are conveyed. Yeah I do think that's valuable. And, you know, I do like, I was just rewatching all the, we just were talking about him, gosh, dang it.

Frank, Frank's videos on Western Australia, their Western Australia trip and just seeing all, I mean, he does a great job too, kind of breaking it down, like saying, well, he didn't really see anything, it was hot, or just sat around and hit the beach for a minute and drink a brewski or something. And he talks about how, okay, it was too hot for anything to be out. So we just hung out. Honesty and showing how it really is and then finding cool stuff at night or not finding stuff. It was too windy or it rained on us, so we got rained out and we didn't see anything, those things. I do like that honest aspect of whatever you're conveying, make sure that you're not trying to be an expert in quotations,

and you're actually putting in the work and giving your best ideas and what you've learned, I guess. And not overstating things. Another reason why this podcast exists, because I've heard people making these claims like, oh, you can do this or, I don't know, just different things where they haven't tested it and they're saying straight out, like, oh, I'm not going to test this because I think it's good. And so I don't want to give them the other side because that's not as good. It's like, well, to make these claims that you're making-

Definitely in the place to see them, Justin, come on. Exactly. Yeah. So yeah, that kind of rubs me the wrong way is when people make these bold claims, but haven't really done the studies to back it up. They just said, well, I did it and it made them better. Well, how did you quantify that? How did you determine these things? And a lot of people that are on a podcast that want more guests to come on their podcast aren't going to challenge them on things like that. And I understand that. I don't want Eric to be like, that's BS, you idiot. How can you make that

claim? That's not going to work out. So there does know, and I, I, I, maybe I'll put this point in here too, if that's all right, that you do sometimes get some of that real talk after, you know, when you're just hanging out after the symposium or something or at dinner or whatever, you can ask in depth questions. You can, and they'll say, you know, I don't know, that's a great idea. And you can kind of bounce ideas off each other and have more plans to figure out certain things. And so it really does build. And I mean, same thing with a podcast, but that's usually after you've hit stop on the record, you know, then, then you're chatting about, you know, things or their name and names or whatever. You're kind of getting the real dirt. Matt Farris To get that experience.

As you were saying, the sort of thing that was running through my mind is the downside at the symposium is that there are so many people vying for the attention of that presenter. So that it's sort of like people talk about in the context of trying to talk to a breeder at a reptile show where they're actively trying to sell stuff and maybe you're not even trying to buy something, but you just, you know, Matt, you want to talk to Phil Trimper or whatever, but you feel like you got to take a step back because, you know, people are trying to engage him in these sorts of things. So the same thing happens at the symposium, you know, so at least as a podcast host, if people are willing to engage with you, then you can have those conversations, you know,

whether they're on the record or not, right, Either the pre or the post or whatever it is. So, yeah. Yeah. And it's funny going back when you were talking about like the planet, you know, of animals, you know, to sensationalize the point that they're trying to make. I'll never forget when I like, I have this like, another real big passion of mine is Architeuthis, the giant squid. I absolutely love this animal. Like,'t know why, it's just something, it's just so cool to me. And I remember Animal Planet had this awesome documentary, it was like an hour long, where they went down

and they advertised, they found one alive, they found one alive, and all this stuff. And what they did is they actually found a baby, and they were able to actually accurately identify it based on its beak shape. So they were like, you know, this is the first time it's ever been filmed alive. And I remember whatever, I forget, I think whatever girlfriend I had at the time,

I was so excited, I'm making her watch this thing. And she's like, that's it. I'm like, what do you mean that? Like, that's like, you know, and then it's like, they followed up a few years later where they do this luminize like ball thing in the ocean. And they were able to like actually get like a more of an adult, you know, come after. And it was like the first time, you to actually get more of an adult come after.

And it was the first time an adult was filmed. But I do see, if you're just somebody who's tuning in and you're like, oh, they found a giant squid. That sounds cool. What is that? And then they show you this little microscopic thing in a glass tank that's in there. It's like, wait, that's not giant. That's I wouldn't even eat that.

Like that's not even calamari size. Like, what is this? You know? So it's like, right, you know, exactly. So it's like, I, I, sometimes like, I always get torn between that, like the idea of like the planning, you know, of animals are sensational, not, not like the biting stuff, but it's like, you want to, I guess, inspire or whatever your motive is

for getting people to watch that. And it's like, and I always think back to that giant squid episode where it's like, yeah, if they would have, I just sometimes wonder, depending on your motives for why you're doing your content, if you want viewership and you want, you know, listeners, it's like, you know, sometimes like in the case of like Animal Planet, you know, you have this cable television show. It's like, well, you better show us something because we just have this film, you know,

this crew out here. So like, you know, all right, go to the zoo and go grab whatever Argus monitor or whatever it is and stick it on a post because we need to take away something. So it's like, you know, and as a creator, I feel like that's such a moral conundrum, you know, where I don't think not everybody has like the gall to say like, no, I'm not doing that, you know, because I mean, you know, and it's a really hard like moral conflict, I think a lot of people, you know, and that's the thing is like, I'm going to be doing part of my talk is I'm going to be doing like a, like a density kind of population study based off iNaturalist, because I really thing is like, I'm gonna be doing, part of my talk is I'm gonna be doing like a, like a density kind of population study

based off iNaturalist. Cause I really wanna like emphasize the importance of like citizen science and you don't have to be like a PhD doctor to like contribute to the scientific side of the community. And I figured, oh, iNaturalist, everybody can use it. You know, it'd be a cool way to leverage, you know, that to get people excited about

it or whatever. But anyways, I don't know what the data is going to show and it might all be garbage, but I'm still going to show that. You know what I mean? Because it's just like, but so it's kind of like with me as the presenter, I have to have that, I feel like I have a moral obligation to our community to not dress it up. Because if you're talking to a spatial scientist who like specializes in this type of data I could make it manipulate it to show something that might not be there but I'm like ethically speaking I can't I don't feel like I could do that because it's like yeah that's not you know why what's the point of me doing they know what I mean so that's where I you know and I think that as a creator or a presenter,

I think that also too is kind of a struggle where if you'd spent years doing research on whatever genetic study or whatever, and it might not be as fruitful or meet your expectations, sometimes I think in the science world, that's a lot more accepted that if your data, your data is your data, it's gonna tell the story. But as a content creator,

I think there's an added pressure to like have some type of, you know, the juice is worth the squeeze, you know, kind of deal. Well, and the click bait nonsense, all the titles and stuff, you know, you have to manipulate the algorithm to get your stuff to show up. It's really kind of frustrating, you know,

and I don't know. Like I admit maybe a couple of my titles are a little trying to glean that a little bit. You know, is this the coolest snake in the central Australia or something like that? You know, like this, see if it makes any difference. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But, uh, so I don't know. Yeah. Tune in tonight at 7. I remember I have a friend that supplied some of the snakes

for that Brian Barczyk Venom Hunters show. Oh my gosh, I forgot about that. And so he was there on set with that. And he had some of the snakes that Brian found in the wild that were his pets. And the producers of the show, he had the correct hoop bags and poles and all this stuff to safely collect snakes. And the producers were like, no, we want him to put them in these pillowcases.

And the pillowcases sometimes didn't even hardly fit the snakes. There was like a half an inch to tie off or something. And so that's a danger, an unnecessary danger. And it's also showing people just a nonsense story of people. Yeah. And collecting animals to milk them for venom, which isn't done. They're captive animals that are milked in a venom research lab or something. Very few labs do this. And so then you had all these people running around saying, oh, well, if this is how much venom is worth, I can

go out in my backyard and grab a King Brown and milk it and send the milk You know send the venom in and and make some money You know it just it just was a frustrating thing for anybody who had any knowledge on the subject but you know the TV channel wanted to sell a program and they wanted to make it make it exciting and that sensationalism and just garbage, you know it exciting and that sensationalism and just garbage. It just does a disservice to the hobby, to interest in reptiles in general. So I don't know. And it was a little frustrating too, to see Brian be involved with that because he knows that's not a real thing. Brian Feroldi I think sometimes too, with those things,

it's not necessarily always clear to the participants what the end product is going to be when they're even involved with it. Right. It makes me think of the, the guy with the whole, oh, he's going to wear a suit and get eaten by an Anaconda thing. Right. Who is an Anaconda researcher and that whole deal. And that essentially he thought he was signing up for one thing.

Then you're, but you're just giving them the footage to then do with whatever they want and it turns up being something entirely different than what he had intended. I think that certainly can happen, which is not to speak to this particular situation. I have no idea what Brian understood the output to look like, but I do know, I've heard that from people who've been involved with, obviously obviously if you control the mechanism of the content, these YouTube creators who are the final cut basically, then yeah, that's a conscious choice whether it's a good one or a bad one that you're making but in these more professional outfits, it seems like you're kind of running the risk that they're going to edit that to suit their purposes which

don't necessarily align with what they told you or what your purposes are. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. And like, you know, and bringing it back, you know, like with the symposium versus like the podcast stuff. And it's like, and I always find it interesting when you have somebody, you know, like, who's doing a dissertation and they did all this research and stuff. And it's like, I've always liked me personally, I've always like thrived being the center of attention. I always loved public speaking and stuff,

but I always feel bad when you see this, I don't mean to speak illy of anybody, but like a nerd, for example, lack of a better term, that's totally uncomfortable out of their comfort zone. They're petrified. And then you see that seasoned veteran scientist's hand go up and it's like, oh shoot. This, you know, and it's like,

you just see their face go pale. Cause that had happened to me. I remember I did a case study on a tornado that occurred in Illinois in like January. And I remember I presented it and this one guy, I know his name, I won't say it, this meteorologist, his hand goes up and I'm just like, and I call on him

and I was always a confident jerk. So I was like, I knew more than anybody. I had to wait for it was my mentality. So I'm like, okay, let's see what this guy's got to say. And he just tore me to pieces and everybody got so mad at him because they're like, dude, this is a kid. What are you doing?

And it's like, and I feel like too, like, you know, with the symposium, like, depending on the audience, sometimes like it can be extremely intimidating, you know, where it's like, you're, you're in this room with all these like, you know, leading authorities on all these different research topics. And it's like, you think, you know, like for me personally, I know like I would be super insecure.

Like there was that entomologist at the Gecko Symposium, you know, and he was talking about how UV would drastically change the nutrient profile of the insects. And I had a million questions, but I'm like, I was so like, worried if I asked a question that either A, in my mind, it made perfect sense, but I'm like, wait, did he already cover this? And I'm just too stupid to understand what he's trying. You know what I mean? And it's like, so it's kind of like, or I feel like, I don't know, like when you're like, you said with like a podcast where, you know, if you're the host and you're interacting with your guests, like, I feel like you can do as me as a host, if

I'm going to ask a stupid question, at least I can explain my logic as to how I got to that question. So I might not come off like a complete goof. You know what I mean? Right. Yeah. I think too, you get to know which podcasts are going to ask the right questions and what information is going to be useful or helpful to you. And so I think a lot of times you kind of neglect certain podcasts and listen in favor of others and you might catch up on them if there's nothing else to listen to. But I think we all have kind of our favorites or what kind of line up with the way we learn or whatever. So I think that's helpful that there's a lot of different podcasts available. And I think too for symposia,

you're going to have a diversity of speakers. And so some topics might be really interesting to you and others might not, but you're going to get exposed to different ways of speaking and methods. I remember at the Carpet Python Symposium, I spoke and Terry Phillips spoke and Eric spoke and we all spoke very differently. But I remember Terry, just like, I don't think he had any slides. He just kind of went and sat at the front of the stage like, hey, let's just talk one on one here to the audience. It was fantastic.

It was a great presentation and the audience was just in awe of what he was saying or whatever. He's very knowledgeable and really gives that information really well. He was definitely better speaker than I was. People were really excited to hear what he had to say. It was cool to see that and to hear that and maybe thinking, oh man, I need to be more like that in my, you know, same thing with Frank

Colachico at the, not the previous Gecko symposium, but the one before that he was like, Yeah, like the first one. Yeah. And he was the keynote speaker. Yeah. Yeah. He kind of did the same thing. He had a ton of slides and was showing some amazing animals that I've never heard of, you know, in like, in these far off places, you know, it was really cool. But he was kind of the same way, like, look, you know, listen, how much did you spend on that gecko? And you know, that's how you could have bought a plane ticket and gone and seen this animal in the wild, you know, but instead you just add one more, you know, animal to your... And no offense, I like to keep animals as well, but it's also important to see them

in the wild. And I think too, people are caring less and less about that. They kind of substitute the care sheet for actual information on their behavior in the wild or things like that. And granted, maybe some things don't necessarily apply to how we keep them in captivity, or you're only getting a glimpse or a snapshot of seeing them in the wild.

But I do think that it's important to learn about these things. I think we've maybe lost a little bit of intellectual curiosity. And so I guess I'm, there are some podcasts where I listen to them and I'm genuinely like excited about something that's been said. I keep using this example and Rob turned me on to this one, but it was on the chameleon podcast. Peter Nakas was talking about chameleons breathing

in their water. That's how they're drinking. And it was just fantastic to hear his experience and how he laid it out. I'd recommend anybody who hasn't listened to that, go listen to that. The chameleon keeper podcast, that's the right name, right? But the Peter Nakas episode, fantastic. I mean, we can crack that name. I can look it up real quick. So it was Chameleon Breeder and then now Chameleon Academy. Oh, Chameleon Academy. Oh, that's right. Chameleon Academy. Yeah. Mostly it's YouTube. There hasn't been at least that I've seen in the podcast player for a while. So it's from a couple of years, two or three years ago. But yeah, it was a two-parter really good. And I think he'd gone to Yemen, right? And was actually weighing bale chameleons before and after the evening. All of this then,

not, you know, as you'll appreciate with your background gets into like, well, you can't even have the dew point right at 68 degrees or whatever. And if the temperature doesn't go below that threshold, then you can't even experience that condition. And the difference between actual fog and essentially like separated water and mist or whatever, that those are not the same thing and the impact that they're having and how they're consumed and all these things goes great depth into it. And it's just sort of mind blowing when we're, for the most part, people are afraid just if you were to approach it in general right an average person a reptile show do you think it's acceptable to let your reptile experience temperatures below 68 degrees

for the most part the answer is going to be no which means you're staying above this threshold where that could even happen right and it's just kind of wild then well this is the integral thing to their system but because because of the limitations, historical limitations are how we, again, the complexity of natural systems exceeds our capacity to understand them. That's fundamentally my, you know, what's my life motto is essentially that I don't have the capacity to understand the subtleties and complexities of natural systems. I can try.

I do try. Right. Or especially replicating them in a box. of natural systems. I can try. I do try. Or especially replicating them in a box. I'm saying even understanding them in the first place, yes, absolutely replicating them. Another... Oh, sorry. Go ahead. I always find it really interesting when I hear people, they try to get really in depth about weather and how do they recreate it like inside this

box. And it's always interesting to me because like, some people are like really spot on and really good at you know, with the like I remember, oh my gosh, Troy Goldberg, you know, he did this these really cool, like tank systems or his misting system was no longer a miss system. It was literally he took like a tube and put holes in it to simulate raindrops. And I'm like, as I was doing that with my fire sailor manners, because I would like mist them,

but I'm like, this isn't how rain falls. Like it's rain. So I would like, I set up this thing, kind of like what Troy was doing, where it's like a tube system where the mister goes into it, it fills up with water and then it drips out over a series of maybe 20, 30 minutes. But it's like the idea of like this fine mist that everybody's thrives for, like with Miss King, it's great product, but it's

like, you know, that idea of like it not, you know, it's, it's like, if you're trying to strive for natural keeping, then go natural keeping, you know, the, the fine little mist droplets that's 95, unless they're like on an ocean with Seamus getting, you know, sprayed up little mist droplets. That's 95, unless they're like on an ocean with sea mist getting, you know, sprayed up. Like I don't think they're Waterfall, you know, some rock, uh, species or something that's getting hit with waterfall spray or something. And I have been rained on like that, you know, where it's tiny droplets that are kind of

like more of a, of a mist rather than a true rain. But yeah, I think depending on where your animal's from, if it's a fog or if it's a mist or if it's raindrops, I think all those things kind of play into it. It could be all of the above or none of the above or some of the above, it just depends. And I think too, sometimes we overcomplicate it, knowing so much. And I loved Terry Phillips' thoughts on this too, where he said, it snows where these snakes live, but I don't shovel snow into my snake's enclosure.

We need to find out what from the environment is needed for certain jobs, you know, and kind of simplify it rather than, you know, expanding and making it more complicated. We find those kind of common things that they need. And, you know, he was looking at it from a, you know, more of a zookeeper perspective. How can I keep all these different species from a variety of different places happy in the same room. So I'm going to look for the commonalities that they all thrive on and I'm going to keep my room at 78 degrees or whatever, 75 degrees and everybody should be pretty happy in that context.

Now, if you're just focusing on one species and you want to really nail them down, that's a different topic or a different way of doing it. Contrarily, right, is the guy that Matt had on with the Naltinus. Right. He had all these whole variety of things and now just has, what, four or five or six Naltinus of different species. Right. Yeah. Obviously, those are very different key strains.

Exactly. Yeah. So wait, you guys are saying one of those, there's a hell storm, I shouldn't go chucking ice cubes into my enclosures. Exactly. I remember- So wait, you guys are saying when there's a hell storm, I shouldn't go chucking ice cubes into my enclosures. Right. Oh man, maybe I am doing it wrong. No. I remember the San Diego Zoo had a tuatara exhibit and they had always thought if you

get the temperature above 70 degrees, they're going to be unhappy, they're going to crash, they're going to die, that kind of thing. And so they kept their tuatara exhibit. 70 degrees, they're going to be unhappy, they're going to crash, they're going to die, that kind of thing. And so they kept their two-atar exhibit. It was actually a privately funded, and they'd gotten these two-atars from the New Zealand government. They're one of the few places, I guess there's a few zoos that have them. But anyway, they had this big thing and it was set up with the latest technology back

in the 90s or whatever, where it would keep the temperature very stable and between 50 and 70, and it wouldn't let it get above 70. And then they went and saw them in the wild and they saw them basking. And the temperature was not 70 degrees. It was more like 95 or something temperature was not 70 degrees. It was more like 95 or something, you know, like on this day. And so they went back and they changed it where they, um, they updated their, um, controls where it actually, um, set the temperature to be the exact same as it was in New Zealand. And if it was a sunny day, they had these little louvers on their ceiling that would open up and allow sunlight in. And it was like, they said it was like the two atars came out of their Burz and went finally some warmth, you know, and they just sat and basked and like soaked it up, you know

so like it was it was a Misconception or you know because so many zoos had kept two atars and if they got too hot then they died and so they oh You can't let them get above 70 or they'll die. That's not true You know if you keep them at 85 their entire life, yeah, they might crash kind of like, you know, diamond Python syndrome or whatever. You don't keep a diamond Python like you keep other carpet pythons because they'll die very quickly, you know, within a few years rather than living out their 30, 40 year life, um, lifespan type thing. So, um, does that mean a diamond Python can never get above 70?

No, it means you can't keep them at 85 constant all year round, or that's not good for them. They're going to speed up their metabolism and, and burn out basically. So, you know, same, same thing for a two Attara, but they will bask sometimes and they benefit from that natural sunlight coming in. So, you know, they learn that now the chameleons, the tuataras are doing fantastically well and, you know, we got to see them out there basking a little bit in the dappled light and even got to, you know, check them out a little closer. So that was pretty sweet. But yeah,

out a little closer. So that was pretty sweet. But yeah. So I think, you know, those kinds of things. And, you know, we, there was a talk at Herbaton by a zookeeper there at the San Diego Zoo. Really cool guy. Gosh, now his name's not going to come to me because I'm going to talk about him, but talked about Parviakthila, the Ethiopian mountain vipers, the bitters, really cool snakes, really beautiful snakes, but not a lot is known about them. But they were able to reproduce them in captivity. And so they were trying to go to Ethiopia, find some, figure out what kind of conditions they're active in and stuff like that. So it was really interesting talk and hearing about the things they learned or through their field studies or partnering with people in Ethiopia that were studying in the wild and stuff. So really cool stuff.

But, I don't know. Well, to that point, I always get reminded of my first guy. Red Baldwin, that's his name. He was the one that gave the talk. Yeah. And I always get worried. I used, that's his name. He was the one that gave the talk and the Harvey Ike. I always get worried, I used to always get worried about, I was always told fire sailor managers have to stay at, don't get them above 70, they're going to die, they're going to die. And then as I got more comfortable with them, I kind of, I wouldn't, and that's the idea

of don't keep them at this temperature. But if it does spike for an hour, two, three hours, it's not gonna be like you just shot them in the face. If they're a healthy animal, they should respond and go find a cooler. That idea of, when somebody says, I'll generically say in my podcast, don't keep fire salamander above 70 degrees

because I feel like if I were to fully dive into like, if you keep said animal, the idea of keeping it and letting it experience a temperature, I feel like those wires are very easily can be confused with certain people. You know what I mean? If you're not an enthusiast, if you would about reptiles, you'll hear, oh, 75 degrees, the salamander hits. That means I can keep it at 75 degrees. It's like, no, no, no, 75 degrees, this salamander hit, so that means I can keep it at 75 degrees.

It's like, no, no, no, don't keep it at that temperature. Yeah. Well, same token out in central Australia, and it's 115 in the day, and you're just sweltering. Then at night, the sun goes down, the geckos come out, and they're probably on the rocks at first. The rocks are still probably 90, 95, but they cool down over time. By the end of the night, they're probably down in the low 80s or high 70s. Then it's back up to 110. But in your cage, they're sheltering from that 110. They're not experiencing 110. Wherever they're hanging

out, not 110. Maybe 90, maybe 80, but that kind of thing. So I think that's another Terry Philippism where he's like, if you look at when they're active, that's going to give you more of an idea of what temperatures you should be shooting for. When you're looking at temperature range in the area where you're finding this animal, think about it. You know, is it nocturnal? Then look at the nighttime temps, not the daytime temps. You know, look at these things because that's what they're going to be shooting for, for the most part. If they're basking or they're out in the middle of the day like a verandah, you know, monitor lizard, they're probably going to

need more than an 85 degree hotspot. They're probably going to need a 120 degree hotspot, you know, and that was kind of that, that didn't really sink in for a lot of people for a lot of years. And it seemed like kind of Frank Reed, he's kind of revolutionized that at least that's the person that I learned it from you know like He went out and took a temp gun and temp the rocks in Australia where he saw Aki basking and he went this thing's basking in 130 degrees, but the books say if you get them to 130 degrees They'll die well. Yeah, if they're staying at 130 degrees, and they have no option Yeah, they're gonna die so yeah But you know, that's something that, you know, people studying them, their natural history,

those are the kind of things that they're gleaning from, you know, these animals in the wild. And I think that's very helpful and interesting. And you know, if they're going to convey convey that whether it be a podcast or a symposium I would suggest go listen to them Yeah, some people won't come on podcasts, but they might give a talk at a symposium you never know so yeah Yeah, and that's the other struggle I think too with like the idea and I think that that like mantra has kind of like been shed a little bit

but like no pun intended but like I think that like mantra has kind of like been shed a little bit, but like, no pun intended, but like, I think that like, you know, the idea of like, oh, it's a podcast, you know, you reach out to a scientist and they're like, oh no, but then they're presenting their research and then you hear them and you're like, oh my gosh, this guy's so charismatic. He would be great to have on the show, but it's like, yeah, but the idea of a podcast, maybe five, six years ago,

they're like, what the heck is that? Like, no, I'm not gonna do that. Now I feel like it's becoming like, the individual who does Snake Talk, he's the head of the Orient Society, like, oh my gosh, that show is so great. And I love it because he's getting these really awesome academic people on this show

that it's like their insight as far as natural behaviors and stuff is like so fascinating. He had a guy on there who studied like sea snakes, you know, and I just was like, it was a show that I had on at work was so funny because I thought it was just going to be background, you know, for me. And I got like nothing done in that hour and a half because I was so locked into it because it was so interesting to learn about this animal that like I knew literally nothing about. And by the end of that show, I'm like, oh my gosh, this guy was great. And that's like, I think with the symposium, you're going to get exposed to a lot more

of those authority figures as far as the research aspect goes. Where I think in the podcast format, it's hard to get somebody to want to do it because it's like back that, you know, back five years ago, people might not even have known what really what a podcast was, you know. Right. Yeah, I think, you know, and we've heard a few really great pioneers to the, you know, the reptile. I know that Eric and Owen have gotten a few that were, you know, now they're no longer with us, you know, and we got to hear their insights. And same with Rico Walder, just a great guy. I remember we were on a Herp trip together and you know, learning from him was just fantastic.

But I remember somebody asked him a question and then proceeded to tell him the answer. He just went, are you going to tell me what the answer is or were you really asking me what the answer is? It was like, oh. I got to remember that. It was pretty great. That's such a good comeback. Yeah, I got to remember that.

That's good. And then he gave an answer that was fantastic. So it was like, yeah, he's the real deal, you know, and he was very quiet and humble. And he understood, you know, like anybody should, that you can't know everything about everything. And you know, it's good to learn from other people and listen, you know, more than you talk. And I have a problem with that. I talk too much. But you know, like, that's a really a good thing. That's why I have Rob on here.

He's the knowledgeable one. So he, he, he knows, uh, he knows, there's probably forgotten a lot, a lot more than most, but yeah. So, uh, it's good to, good to listen to people. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Definitely. Yeah.

Yeah. I, I don't know. I, I echo that a big time because it's like, you know, you get like with me, I'll get so excited sometimes about talking about whatever it is. And then it's just like, I have to constantly remind myself like, man, shut up. Like, you know, and I always like tell myself too,

where it's like, okay, if I find myself wanting to over talk my guests like too much, then I know it's time to do like a solo episode, where then I'll elaborate more on my thoughts, because I also feel like, you know, with the symposium, it's great because you don't have that, you know, you might like, and it's not to pick on any podcast,

but you might have a podcast host who's a little bit too enthusiastic, who's over talking their guests, where it's like, I'm tuning in to hear your guests, not you. And it's like, if you tuning in to hear your guests, not you. And it's like, if you really have like, you know, you really want to get like your points and stuff across, like you have your show, like just do a solo episode and, and, and, and fill us all in on those thoughts and stuff.

But at the time, I feel like, you know, if you, if you got this person on who's, you know, taking time out of their busy schedules to join you. It's like, let them open up. Where at a symposium setting, you don't really have that worry, unless the audience is somebody's rude and just wants to dive. Is I don't know if you've ever been to any of those with certain audience members

that feel like they're also presenting at the same time. It's like the organizers have to remind them, like save your questions till the end, please. Yeah, they just want to show off. They're not asking questions. They're just, I guess maybe there's a place for that in some ways, and that's kind of the, one of the benefits of a symposium

is that you can get those other experts in the room that may have a dissenting opinion or thought on that. And I think that's a viable thing too, you know, as long as it's not confrontational or combative, you know, like you're trying to improve the knowledge of the general public. I think there's a place for that. It's a little delicate. I think it's probably best saved for later on, talking with people individually that are interested in that subject or something. I don't know. It's a fine line and kind of

a tricky thing because sometimes you do get those egos with experts in the field, where they're spurting their little ex around. Anyway, I think that's something you have to be wary of, I guess, if you're in attendance or if you're going to make a comment. Don't be a jerk about it, but also it's good to help others understand there are other ways of seeing data or an answer to a question or something like that. Right. Like, you know, one thing that they always say, like to us in AA, it's always funny where

it's like, okay, do I need to say this? Does it need to be said? And does it need to be said now? And most of the time it's usually no, no, no. You know, and it's so funny where like, I put that into like, I try to incorporate, you know, all these steps and all this stuff in my program until like just my every aspect of life where it's like, I noticed that it's so much more easier to communicate with people when you it's hard, but if you put your ego aside, you don't get subsumed in this like constant,

like I need to tell everybody this, I need to tell, you know, and subsumed in this like, constant, like, I need to tell everybody this, I need to tell you know, and it's like, well, just look, you know, it's like, we listen to talk every week. So it's like, we, you know, the audience knows you're smart, the audience knows, you know, your stuff. So it's like, just let the guest, you know, kind of, you know, and to give Adam with expert and idiot, like his show is like, he's so good at doing that, where he'll like, you know, he'll ask this question. And he's so good at doing that where he'll like, you know He'll ask this question and he's so good at like getting that the guests, you know

I remember listening to I think it was Nick Munten and it was like three or four hours long and I'm just like this is You know cuz Nick is you know, I think a lot like he gets excited and he's very opinionated and I Gotta get him on my show cuz I would just love to just like give him a coffee with as much caffeine as possible And just say go what pissed you off as possible and just say, go. What pissed you off today, Nick? And just let him go because these, you know, but it's like, but that's like the, you know, and I feel like there's a challenge where as a host, you want to contribute to the banter

back and forth. But there's, I feel like it's, you know, you're, for me, it's my responsibility not to take the spotlight away because if I feel like I need to do that, then it's time for me to do a solo show and let my guests really shine and let them. And plus it's also too, I try to like get my, I want my guests' personality to come out and if I don't shut up, it's never going to come out. Right. Yeah.

That's sometimes a hard to learn lesson. And yeah, I've gone on a couple podcasts where I've just been talked over. And it's like, you almost don't want to say anything, even with a guest from time to time where they just kind of like hijack and take it to where they want it. And you try to bring it back to the topic, you know, or the questions at hand. And yeah, they just derail again.ail again. But it's a tricky balance for sure. Yeah, especially as a podcast host. And I guess that's another benefit of the symposium is it's kind of a, you listen for 15 minutes

and then you have a chance to ask questions or 40 minutes or whatever. So depending on the speaker and the talk time, but you know, where it's kind of a little bit rude to, you know, interrupt in the middle of the talk to ask a question or something, you save your questions till the end and stuff. Sometimes that can be, you know, I guess counterproductive because you might forget your question. If you're not writing down when you think about it, you know, sometimes guess counterproductive because you might forget your question if you're not writing down when you think about it, you know, sometimes I'll be doing that like, Oh crap, I had a question

about that. But now I can't remember what I was going to ask, you know, so I guess as a as an attendee to a symposium, make sure that you're coming prepared, you're writing down your thoughts or questions. And, and then you know, you might have the choice of, you might have 50 questions, but tone it down, at least for the symposium part of it. Ask one, your most driving or exciting question and then save the rest for later on when you can get them one-on-one or something. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I, I, I, it's like almost like that proper symposium etiquette, you know, like I, I, I noticed that the old grizzled like scientists tend to not

just care at all. And it's just like, I mean, I remembered that I like Chuck Daswell was so funny because he always, you know, he was, I love this mantra where he's like, you know, life is too short. Don't take yourself too serious. So he would go to these like world renowned meteorological like events and he'd show up with his suspenders, jeans and a cowboy hat. And it's just like, well, that's just Chuck, you know? But like he, but he would also would be the guy that in the middle of the talk,

if he didn't agree with something, he would stop the whole show, you know, and voice his opinion. And it's just like, oh, Chuck, like everybody here, we respect you so much. We know you know your stuff, but let the new PhD guy, at least let him finish his thought before you know. It's like, but you know, at that point it's like,

but sometimes it makes it interesting, as an attendee just watching the show, it's like, oh get my popcorn, this is gonna be fun. You know? Yeah, as an organizer, I was the program chair for a number of years for one of the virology conferences and that's the most frustrating thing because you want to keep it rolling, you want to keep it on time. And if somebody is going to interrupt in the middle and spend five minutes, you know, kind

of changing the subject or whatever, however you want to put it, like putting in a dissenting opinion, then that can mess up the whole program. Or if somebody takes 30 minutes when they've been allotted 15 minutes, it just drives you nuts. You're just like, I need one of those, the crooks to grab them by the neck and pull them on stage kind of thing. Because some people just think they're a little better, more exciting than everybody else thinks. That can be frustrating. And you know, I guess that's the downside of the symposium. And, and I think that was one thing that really pissed me off at the Herpeton was one of the speakers just went way, way too long. And it was not that gripping, you

know, some interesting stuff. But it's like, then Alan Rapace didn't give his Igerney a talk, which was one of the main reasons I wanted to go, you know, and hear his talk on Igerney. He did give it, but it was very truncated and didn't have as much information. And so I was very frustrated by that. So, you know, do yourself a favor, stick to your time. If you're a speaker at a symposium, you know, do yourself a favor, stick to your time. If you're a speaker at a symposium, you know, if you're an attendee, don't interrupt, you know, talk offline if you're gonna, you know,

wanna fight with somebody, do it on your own time and not on the symposium time. But. And I always notice it's always on like an obscure definition where, you know, a lot of the times it's like, okay, like, come on. You know the point they're making, you're just trying to show off, like, just put your ego aside, like chill out, you know, right.

It's not your turn to show me. Right. Yeah. Some people don't take the hint either. You don't give them a speaking, you know, you don't have them in the program to speak and they're just like, well, oh, they're just, you know, they don't care about my stuff or something. You're like, no, it's because you don't know when to shut up and how to stick to your time slot. Right. Yeah. Oh, that's funny. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I hope. It's funny as I put together

this PowerPoint, I'm just like, you know, as I'm doing it, I'm like, okay, like I know like they would, they'd usually usually tell you double the slides for the time allotted, because people tend to talk fast. I learned very hard at one talk that I gave where I did that and I was halfway through my presentation, but my time was up and I'm like, oh boy. I screwed this one up. Yeah. You know, and I think that's kind of why, like when, when that, when this initial topic came to, came to mind, I was like, Oh wow. And I started thinking about when I would present stuff with meteorological research and everything. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I remember doing, you know, and all this stuff. And I'm like,

yeah, the truncated time kind of sucks. But then at the same time, but Justin, you made a really good point where you're like, well, yeah, but if you're concise and you're not, you know, a goof that's going to want to just hear themselves talk for an hour, then you shouldn't have a problem getting your initial topic across, you know, it's always good to be reminded of that sometimes as I over talk everybody. So especially when you have an allotted, you know, you have a time where you it's your you you're the whole thing, the whole thing for 15 minutes or whatever or 20 minutes.

You're the only one talking. But I do think it is useful if you can go longer. At the Herpeton again, I gave a talk on Antaresia and one of the speakers just didn't show up. And so Alan's like, can you go a little longer? So I went over my time, but then I think it turned out that they showed up or something late and so they had to rearrange the schedule. And so I didn't need to end up talking so long, but it is what it is. I was trying to help out.

I hope people didn't think I was just ignoring the timeframe. Right. Yeah, definitely. I don't know. I look forward to it. It's going to be a lot of fun for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I wish I could make it out. That'd be cool. I need to attend one of those one of these days. And I think us supporting those kinds of things and having both options is always better than just having one, having one disappear. I would encourage everybody to, especially if it's local and easy to go to, attend a

symposium and check them out, see what you think. I get a little worried that we're losing that intellectual curiosity and we need to do better with that. Well, yeah. And I think too, I think our community, as far as her papers go, I think there's been so much emphasis on the monetary value of animals that the science side has been so lost. And it's so unfortunate because I'll hear podcasts where it's so business-orientated, where it's like, and I get that part is very important in our community. We need that, obviously, but at the same time, it's like, I don't know. I don't really, I know for me personally, now I'm just being selfish, but it's like, I don't need to know about marketing your animal on morph market or Palm streets or whatever the new thing

is because it's like, I don't know, I'm more, I like to think that I like, I don't know, I never cared about the money side from any of the animals I keep. I mean, I like more of the non-common stuff, but it has nothing to do with the financial gains from it You know, it's like I I'm like pulling my leg trying to figure out how I can figure out how to keep all my fire salamanders I know I it's completely ridiculous to really keep 30 of them But I want to keep them all and if I had that the room I definitely would but it's like I just but at the same time, I'm like, you know, I feel like the emphasis from like the

I just, but at the same time, I'm like, you know, I feel like the emphasis from like the knowledge and just the general like natural behaviors and stuff of the animals, I feel like it's been so much like, you know, overwhelmingly like consumed by the monetary aspect and so many people bring it back to, oh, how, you know, how much are these worth? How much are these worth? And yeah, that's important to an extent,

but like, I don't know, I don't want to, I don't really want to hear that when I'm listening to a podcast, if that makes sense. Yeah. I think here's kind of a challenge for anybody listening or ourselves included. If you can't give a 15 minute focused talk on a species that you keep, you know, I think everybody

should be able to give a symposium talk on something they keep because they know about it enough or they've learned about it at least, you know, researching the animal before you get it, you know, doing your research, knowing the animal. I think that that should be kind of a requirement for anybody keeping an animal. Like ask yourself, could I give a 15 to 30 minute talk on species X that I keep? And if not, if you can't have an engaging, informative talk on that species, maybe do some more research, learn more about it, you know, so you can, you could do that if you needed to. I think that's something

that we should all do. I listened to a podcast and they, somebody bought this rare gecko and it was very expensive and they were asking about them, like where do they come from? Oh, uh, I think they're from this area. You know, they got it wrong and didn't know where the thing came from. I'm like, Oh my gosh, you spent, you know, five grand on an animal and you don't know where it comes from. Like that's, that's kind of sad. You know, let's, let's do better. Let's,

let's learn about these things, uh, especially before we buy them. And you know, I, yeah, you can follow a care sheet, but I think you're going to be more rewarded by learning about what they do in the wild, what they, you know, those kinds of things. Be curious, be excited about these, the natural history of them. Because that's, I don't know, at least in my own opinion, that's where the excitement comes, is how these things have lived in the wild and you know, been on earth for millions of years or whatever. It's kind of exciting and cool. Like, I don't know, get into it. If you're keeping something in a box, learn about it

in the wild too. Yeah. Why not? Well, yeah. I think that's like a, you know, a big like for me, I feel like that the more of my friends that I interact with, you know me, I feel like that, the more of my friends that I interact with, who keep animals and stuff, that idea has been so lost where it's just like, I gotta get a pair and I gotta breed them.

If I don't breed them, I don't know what I'm doing. And I'm like, well, that's, like look at Bolan's pythons. For years, these things have people have been struggling so much. They've been able to keep them alive. And like that in itself is an achievement, you know? And it's like, you can get them to a wild caught juvenile to breach adulthood.

Like I think that's a win. Like that's really cool. Like that's really impressive. And it's like, okay, just because the individual might not have been successful breeding yet, doesn't mean that their knowledge of keeping and being able to successfully keep the animal alive, you know, for all, you know, collective

terms or whatever. It's like, that's important knowledge, you know, and it's like we're going to dismiss somebody because they just, you know, haven't crossed that, you know, they haven't connected, you know, like Rob would say, the cosmic octopus, you know, they haven't wrangled in those tentacles yet to the breeding side. But I mean, I can't tell you when I was in the 90s, there were so many new animals coming in that it's like, where do you even begin to like learn that stuff? And it's like, you go back to,

you remember the encyclopedia Britannica's, those huge collections and like, you just, I remember as a kid just praying to God that this, even if it's not the species, just the genus or the family was like covered in one of these encyclopedias because if it wasn't there, this is really before internet came prevalent. So I'm using like a card catalog, digging through, you know, all these random books. And it's like hoping to find a paragraph on whatever random animal it is.

And it's like, you know, so I think that like the idea of just constantly people thinking that the mark of success is like just achieving breeder status is like, yeah, it's cool and it's important, but like there's still a lot of knowledge that got you to being able to breathe that is beneficial to everybody, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And I think understanding a wide range of species can help you with, you know, your specific animal too. Sometimes, sometimes not, you know, and so, you know, sometimes, sometimes not. And sometimes maybe we just haven't cracked the code or maybe there's some animals that just aren't gonna

do well in a box, we just have to leave them to the wild. So, yeah. Yeah. It's always fascinating to me like when animal nutrition comes up. And I think that's like one of the things that I always look forward to at these symposiums and stuff is like when that entomologist was there at the symposium, I was like, so excited to just hear this guy talk because like, I'll be the first to admit, I

don't know enough about reptile nutrition, like I know that it's good to vary their diets. But like, you know, the whole what is it is that the magnesium to calcium ratio and all that kind of stuff. When I was first learning about it, I'm just like, oh my God, that's a thing. What is it? And it's just like, you sit there and you start to really dive into all these little nuances of our community. And it's like, I don't know,

that's I think why it draws me to it. Because if you're really passionate and you truly have a love for the animal, all of this stuff I feel, you should wanna know it. You know, why, you know, like, how cool is it to know that this, you know, if I feed my monitor too many dubia roaches, it's gonna develop gout, like people get gout,

like that's, you know what I mean? Like this animal can still have the same problem with his gout, like a lactic acid buildup or something like that, or whatever it is. Like, I shouldn't even pretend like I know, but like gout, a lactic acid buildup or something like that or whatever it is like um i shouldn't pretend like i know but like gout you know is like uh you know it's it's the all these different like little things that you know we can i feel like if you love your animals and you're not even loved but if you're passionate about them it's like yeah like you know push push the boundaries learn something new and you know and at the end of the day, it's fun for me anyway.

It's so much fun to learn stuff that like carotenoids, the heck are carotenoids. Now I'm like, I can't get enough of learning about these things. Right. Yeah. It's a bit of a two-edged sword. I've seen some people that are overstating our knowledge on these things. The gut microbiome is a great example that where, you know, we were just scratching the surface. I mean, our bodies are more bacterial cells than human cells. So, you know, are we, are we really human or we bacteria in a, with a human shell? But, you know, those kinds of things are so complex and the, the gut microbiome, you know,

influences so many aspects of health. And it's the same for our animals. And sometimes there's simplistic views on, oh, you just got to take this tablet or take this probiotic and you're good. It's such a complex system. Sometimes taking the probiotic doesn't do a dang thing because your gut microflora is already established. Unless you kill it with a bunch of antibiotics, then you're probably not going to even make an impact on your gut microbiome by taking probiotics. So our understanding

is very at the beginning. And so to make these overarching claims that, oh, just give your lizard this yogurt or whatever. We don't even know if the same kind of bacteria are even able to colonize a lizard gut or whatever. So, yeah, that's so complex. To simplify something so complex is sometimes dangerous, sometimes naive. Right.

And I think too, the idea of when people speak in absolutes drives me nuts when someone's like, you have to do this, you have to do this. And it's like, I'll say it tongue in cheek, I find myself doing this a lot with fire sailor matters, but with the whole 70 degree threshold. But like, I almost look at it though, is like, I don't want to put information out there where I figure if you're gonna be a beginner, I wanna like encourage the person

if they have this interest in keeping this animal, they're great pets, but it's like, I wanna, I know for a fact that if you don't let them get above 70 and you keep them between let's say 70 and 65, they're gonna do great. And it's like, if you're first starting out into it, let's just keep the animal alive for a year. And then it's like, take it the next step

where it's like, I feel like there's too many experts that'll sit there and say, if you don't do, like there's a YouTube video, I remember, about naturalistic keeping. I think it was green tree pythons and they're like, you know, and it was like very like, don't keep them naturalistic and blah, blah, blah. But it's like, I appreciate the point the individual is making because keeping them naturalistic presents a lot more challenges. But the, the connotation and the way that it was presented, I felt like was almost too tongue in

cheek and too like aggressive to where it was like, wow, like, I don't think I would even attempt to try to keep a green tree Python naturalistic, because it sounds like I'm literally going to kill it if I attempt to but it's like, no, it's not, you know, it's it's because there's different, you know, things that need to be met in order to achieve its success and captivity before, you know, instead of just keeping it in a bin with water at the bottom or whatever. So I, yeah, like you said, it's a double edged sword where like, you know, you overcomplicate it or you oversimplify it, you know, and it's, it's, it's always, I don't know, it's a can of worms that you can just, you know, you can dive down deeper and deeper. But that's what's great with, you

know, the symposium and the podcast formats because you can do all of that, you know. Right. I remember seeing the first Gecko Symposium that, oh, gal, anyway, where they had this kid present and he had done a study with some ciliatus, some of the crested geckos or lychianus, one of the two, like doing a dietary study or doing some growth study or something. It was really interesting and it was like nice going, like to really almost, I mean, I think a lot of people

just like the security of a care sheet, like this is how it's been done. This is what's worked. And so I'm just going to follow this and not deviate from it or look at anything else, you know. And then they get in that attitude of like, Oh, this is what you have to do to keep them successfully. And, you know, we could improve or we can learn more. But if you're not willing to take a risk or try something or think about new things or options, Maybe if we give the tuatars some sunlight, that'll be good for them. Those kinds of things. You're so scared of your precious pet having anything other than optimal things happen to it, then sometimes we can kill them with kindness too,

where yeah, they might get gout or they might get overweight and not be good breeders or not be good captives or die early because those kinds of things. So I don't know. I think that's another benefit of the symposia is that you have people that are researching and doing studies, controlled studies where they have a control group that's getting the normal care and then they're having a test group where they can compare some output. And so we can learn and develop and grow from those talks. And again, maybe you're not going to get those guys to come on a podcast or those ladies to come on a podcast and it's not going to be shared.

So that's the trick, I guess, is to, if you expose yourself to both, you're probably gonna be in better shape. Yeah. And like, you know, the little sneak peek of like, what I would like to do my, or my talk is gonna go on. It's like, you know, from the herptaculturalist, like the importance of like taking measurements

and recording data, like at that moment in time, you might think to yourself, is this really useful? Why am I doing this? But you never know five years from now, six years from now, two months from now, some scientists might say, oh, I really wish somebody recorded this or whatever. And it's like, oh, hey, actually,

and you can so, you know, it might not be overnight, but you can get yourself into that community, open that door up and say, hey, I'm capable of writing down temperatures or I'm capable of measuring my animal. And it's like, I think the idea of certain scientists put this, I don't know, attitude on like, you have to be higher educated and stuff like that,

or does it help? Absolutely, but we're all very smart individuals that are completely capable of critical thinking. So it's like, as a keeper, if that's what tickles your fancy, then by all means, write it all down. Take out notes on all of it. And then it's cool because you compile data over years and you can do your own analytics on it

and see trends and stuff like that. And next thing you know, you're like, hey, actually you have some useful information to give to the community, you know? Yeah, no, my buddy, Benson Morrill did his PhD thesis using data collected by the snake keeper, the Sutherland. And they shared that data set with him and he was able to do a bunch of different analyses

of long-term animal measurements and their offspring and how many eggs and all those kinds of things, how much they were being fed, all that stuff. Colette Sutherland was very meticulous in her notes and yeah, Ben got a PhD thesis out of it, a dissertation out of it. So, you know, that and, and, uh, publish those data and, you know, scientific journal and all that kind of stuff. So pretty cool. Um, that, you know, I think those things are helpful in the long run. I think the, the, one of the findings was that you couldn't feed a ball python too much in captivity. Like they, they, they'll, they'll eat and grow and produce as many eggs as you can support, you know,

so kind of an interesting thing. Yeah, I mean, there's just so many doors that have yet to been open in our community. And I think it's like, I say this a lot, but it's such an exciting time to be involved in the in herptaculture because of all of this technology that's getting more affordable and all of the you know the people that are making it podcasts and symposiums I think are making stuff more aware and in the zeitgeist of our collective you know being as a you know a reptile keeper where it's like yeah this information could be very beneficial down the road so why not write it down and who knows where well who knows whose paper or whose book it'll end up in, but it very well possibly could be.

And then you can show all your friends and family, Hey, look at, I was cited in this, you know, and that's, that's pretty cool. You know, I think that's really, really cool, you know, for sure. Yep. Well, have we hit on any other topics in favor of symposia or podcast? No, I think we did a good job. I took away from this that podcasts and symposiums are both very crucial and very good outlets to get knowledge out to people across all bases.

Definitely. Yeah. Definitely support both. I don't think podcasts are going away anytime soon. If you can get past number six, I think you're doing pretty good. So yeah, here we are in our third year, maybe, oh, I guess fourth year now. So you're keeping it going. I remember when you and Chuck started the show and Chuck had to step aside. And then when Rob came on to host it, I was just like, Oh my gosh, like replacing Chuck, I thought

was like, I wonder who Justin's going to have. And then it's like, Rob's doing it. I'm like, oh, this is awesome. Like it was great as Chuck was, you know, I mean, I loved Chuck, he was great. And then it's like, oh, now Rob's on, like this is, you know, this whole format and the thing that you guys do is like, I just, it's so refreshing because instead of listening

to, you know, all the other stuff that like I do, it's nice to hear, you know, this type of, you know, information being put out do. It's nice to hear this type of information being put out there. It's really, really cool. I just love the show. I was very honored and it's so excited to be on the show. You guys really made my whole week. It's been awesome. That's nice of you to say. Yeah, we love your show and yeah, super, super great topic and yeah, you've done awesome, man. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah.

You're one of those people to watch and see what you do because you're going to do some amazing things. Yeah. Thank you. That means a lot coming from you guys. It really does. Well, appreciate you coming on. Yeah.

I kind of liked the end of the show with any cool things you've seen in herpetology in general or podcasts you listen to lately or episodes. So I think we touched base on the most, the thing that's been on my mind the most is with the space in between my fire salamander depositing larva. That still baffles me. I'm still curious to see like, you know, how this if she's even got any more in her. But yeah, as far as like podcasts go, I mean, everybody on NPR or the NPR network is just awesome. I mean, you guys by far like I just, you know, Klubert and Kluberboy, you know, is great. You know, Owen and Eric and Owen, like their Patreon, like I love their eye What is it morality of minutes?

like you know it's it that like I had those two are at a point now where it's like I like their shows when they Don't have a guest because I just love listening to those two like I I was making I was telling myself I this internal joke where I'm like man if they take any more time off between shows I'm just gonna invite them on to my show and just do my own just like hey I'm just gonna sit back onto my show and just do my own, just like, hey, I'm just gonna sit back here and listen to you guys, you know? So, but no, like all the, you know, your guy, like all the, you know, and then Snake Talk, you know,

that I've been listening to him for years and I don't think I've acknowledged him on my show. So that podcast is amazing. I really, you know, the stuff that, what's the other one? I think it's called like Herb, Herb the Culture Journals or something. It's it's like oh my gosh they highlight like a research paper every time they do their herpetological highlights yeah oh my gosh they're great too you know I there's just

so much good stuff out there right now how do you you got to pick and choose you know there's not enough hours in a day yeah I, I was listening to Stephen Tillis. He was on The Expert and the Idiot recently. We did a paper together on treating snake viruses or pentel viruses or NIDO viruses, you know, that was really fun to be involved with. So I'm excited to hear kind of the next iteration of his research and our funds ran out, so we weren't able to do much more, but hearing how he's taken that further and hearing some potential benefits that we might see in the near future, yeah, that's been exciting. So looking forward to hearing more from him. But yeah. Yeah, very cool. I, I'm not sure I know that there were a few other things, but they have, they've left

my brain. So yeah, anything from you, Rob? Well, Aspen and I were listening to Matt's podcast with Frank when we were in Florida. That was really good as we were cruising around. We were listening to that. We also listened to Chris Applin's show where he was talking with Nick and Ryan about the trip that he had led them on. So that was really good as well. I mean, there's a whole host of things and obviously, right, we're getting into the season, especially in the Americas and stuff where people are posting all sorts of cool things. So yeah, there's a ton out there. Yeah, I was researching, looking for rough scale pythons in the wild and how I want to approach that or what direction I want to come from or whatever, looking at

Mitchell River Falls or the other areas that you could look for them. I was surprised that the Mitchell River falls is closer to Kandunurah than it is to Broome. There's a bit more of a drive. So I'm like, oh, any reason to excuse to go back to Kandunurah and maybe see some more kimrocks in the wild was kind of an exciting thing to me. But I mean, I guess you got to get to Canoeira. I think you can fly there, but you know, the drive from Darwin isn't bad and you get to see a lot of cool stuff. Yeah, we'll have to take that approach. Right. Yeah, fun stuff. All right. Well, thanks again, Matt. How can people find you? I mean, obviously

they can listen to your podcast, Not Another Reptile podcast or... Yeah. Yeah. Just pretty much on like Instagram. I don't know. I'm not really big into social media. So like, I mean, I'll respond to messages and stuff by all means. So, you know, but as far as like, I don't know, Facebook is there, but I don't like, you know, I'm on there. I go, my last name's white, but I use my middle name that way. And I jokingly say Bruce Wayne's my uncle, but I wish, you know, but, but no, I, I'm on Facebook. But like I said, I'm not like, I don't know, social media.

Like I enjoy it. I like interacting with people, but like posting and stuff is just not my thing. So it's like, you know, it's, but yeah, if anybody's got any guests, you know, that's the other thing too, is like, as I'm trying to get into more turtle stuff, I don't know, I know nothing about turtles.

So I really like wanting to learn a lot about turtles. So like I started out with Anthony Pirlione and I feel like I set the bar too high because now I'm like, okay, like I got to find other, uh, you know, turtle people. So if anybody's got any suggestions on turtle people, shoot me DMs. Cause I will have them on, you know, I was just catching up on, uh, Ryan DeMoss's podcast, uh, let's talk turtles. You ought to check that one out. Ryan is, he's, he's fun to listen to and he's got his co-host Tom is just as engaging. So I, you know, they're, they had a, um, Ralph Till on there talking

about his, uh, Kleinman I project or Egyptian tortoises. Yeah. So, yeah, I, I would, uh, you know, encourage you to listen to those guys. Um, Ryan's a great podcast guest. We've had him on a couple of times and couple times and we're going to have him on in the near future. So yeah, he's a really cool guy. So I would check that podcast out, All Things Turtles. And I'm kind of a closet Chilonian fan. So I love to listen to it, at least if I can't keep any now, maybe down the road. But I just love listening to it and hearing that stuff. Definitely. Yeah, I will make sure I note that. And yeah, they will be getting a DM for me, if not tomorrow, this weekend for sure. So that's cool. I appreciate that. Thank you.

Cool. Well, thanks again for coming on. And we'll thank Eric and Owen and the NPR Umbrella for hosting us and for all the work they do and we'll thank you for listening and we'll catch you next week for another episode.