Reptile Fight Club - Are you seriously cohabbing? with Lucas Lee

Episode Date: March 15, 2024

Justin and Rob tackle the most controversial topics in herpetoculture. The co-hosts or guests take one side of the issue and try to hold their own in a no-holds-barred contest of intellect. Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the topic of cohabitation with Lucas Lee of Centralian Exotics.  Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Rob @ https://www.instagram.com/highplainsherp/Follow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to another episode of Reptile Fight Club. As I hit record, the dogs start barking. How wonderful. Hopefully you can't hear that. Anyway, welcome. We're back. And we've got Rob here as well. How's it going, Rob? I'm great. Yeah, great to be here with you and our guest tonight, Lucas Lee. He said he's making his Reptile Fight Club first appearance initially.

I never thought this day would come. I'm very embarrassed by this fact. For some reason, I thought we had a show in the past, but I guess we've been on a few podcasts together. True. It all blends together. Yeah, I thought you'd been on. I'm pretty sure we had discussions about getting you on as well. But it doesn't really matter the forum. If you're talking to me, we're fighting.

So I can understand the confusion. Yeah. But yeah, it's about freaking time. So I apologize for not having you on sooner, but very happy to be here, fellas. We are in here together and i'm looking forward to fighting with you a little bit so yeah yeah absolutely i don't know i i got uh woma eggs today so not a bad way to to not a bad sight to see although my favorite site yeah yeah i did have a there was like a little uh it was kind of like a boob egg, but the, the

little, the smaller part was separated and it had a little string between. And so I'm, you know, pulling the eggs and I'm like, oh, and I just went to pluck it off. And all of a sudden all the yolk started leaking. Never pull the dingleberry. I know. I'm like, what is wrong with me? How do I not think these things through?

Why didn't I just leave it on? It was one of the good eggs. And it wasn't the best clutch. There were only like three good eggs in there and a fairly good-sized slug. At least I think it's a slug. But I put it in the incubator. And I learned from last year. I turned on my incubator well in advance so there's no spikes and evil things to kill eggs and disrupt the,

the balance of things. So anyway, good to have eggs on the ground. Happy to see that. I just was so excited. I had to get that out. Yeah. Yeah.

I think my walnuts are about a week behind you. So fingers crossed. And now I won't pull the dingleberry. Yeah, there you go. Learn from my errors. Yeah, you didn't cut blackhead eggs, right? Or did you? So two years ago was the great blackhead egg cutting debacle.

And then last year I did get a clutch, but I was on tour and nobody found them. So I didn't have a chance to kill them. They died on their own. This year I might get another clutch, but I was on tour and nobody found them. So I didn't have a chance to kill them. They died on their own. Uh, this year I might get another shot though. Western is off food and looking good. Yeah. My female is close to laying as well. She's, she had her three years in a row.

I know she's a, she's a machine. Dang. You're too good. I can only do good with the eggs, that would be wonderful. You and me both. Yeah. Last year I had that spike in the temperature and cooked them a little bit. And so the babies came out kind of wonky with small eyes or missing eyes.

And I still have two of those. They're still going along. They still require me to help them out a little bit, put a, put a rodent in their mouth and hold still and let them figure out that it's food. So they're doing okay, but still a little bit of the hair pulling out stage, you know, kind of spit it out every chance they get. Just leave it in there. Morph market tells me that you should post those up.

That seems like today's drama. Maybe we can fight about that in the future. Maybe, maybe that should be your next posting. Yeah, I don't even know about this. I'm really, like, conflicted what to do with them. Like, just give them to somebody or to – Well, we'll have to fight about it because, again, today's – I guess someone had posted on – I didn't even see it, but several people were sending it around. There were plenty of agitated Facebook posts about there was a split-lip

one-eyed Xanthic water monitor that someone was pitching on there. It didn't include the price or whatever and all that. We can talk about that because I do see two sides to that. Notably on both, the price wasn't included and I believe the ad's been

pulled. The seller's been banned. you know, there's plenty there. Of course. Yeah. When in doubt, ban, ban it out. Yeah, exactly. We can talk about that later. Yeah. I've had, I've had like baby, you know, blue tongues kinks, Northern blue tongues that have been, you know, born with, you know, slight kinks or something like that. And I'll just give them to somebody.

I actually gave one to my cousin's kid and she made like an Instagram for it, you know, and like took really good care of it. And it had more followers than I did. It's like a very popular little special needs skink. Well, I mean, I guess my point would be accepting the potential price point, which as I said, I didn't see. Not something that I'm looking into or whatever. Accepting the price point, really then anyone who's saying that that's problematic is advocating that it should be euthanized. So to me, that's sort of the – if you look at that dichotomy, maybe that's what we can talk about in a future episode. You know, from my perspective, anyone who's saying absolutely that that's wrong, that that should be available again, price notwithstanding, that's what they're saying. So if it's not perfect, then you got to euthanize it.

So, hey, that's that's pretty heavy. Yeah, right. Yeah. Well, I mean, what's and I don't know that people are realizing that that's what they're saying when, when they're taking that approach, but that's how it, at least someone could read it. Um, so that's why I say, I think there may be something there to talk about more complicated. I think should be the most expensive reptile on morph market. All those broken genes, all those mutations.

I know. That's a world's first. You could get a dolphin head out of this you know maybe so right yeah so probably neither here nor there but right anyway after i've derailed that enough yeah well hi i don't know i i just watched a uh youtube video with uhne's Python. What's it? Yeah, Python's and Lizards or whatever.

The Extreme Herping guys. That's the channel. Yeah, Extreme Herping. And they were out in the Brigolo Belt and found me in the carpet. Is that Kai? No. Michael Payne and... Oh, okay. Different one. Yeah. Gotcha. I can't recall. i'm terrible with names but anyway the the other guy that he herps with too but it was uh i think it was michael this time

and i i'm hoping i'm getting his name right but anyway yeah i'm great at this um anyway that they found an inland carpet out uh oh sweet which was uh uh, pretty, it was nice. It was, uh, something that I would like to see someday. So, yeah, yeah. That's fantastic. Check that one out. That's pretty cool. It's pretty neat. It's towards the end of the video. He, he spends a lot more time on the lapids than he does on the inland carpet. I'm like, come on, you get five seconds for the inland and like, you know, he's following around a mulga for like, you know, 15 minutes or something. I'm exaggerating, of course, but yeah, mulgas are fun. I, you know, I don't fault him for that, but show a little bit more.

The female inland that I got from you is getting really red. I'm stoked on her. Yeah. He's a nice one. They're such awesome snakes. Yeah. They are. Yeah. I, I'm,

I'm, uh, I'm a little dubious. I'll get eggs this year from, from my, uh, females. I haven't really seen much.

You did too good last year. They need to humble you. I guess I, well, I didn't do that great last year either. It was, I thought you had like three, four clutches.

No, I just had one clutch last year and that it was the year before that. I had to, I think it was the year before that. Yeah two i think it was the year before that yeah anyway i take it back i know i suck but they're just always humbling you yeah exactly uh but you know it is what it is i guess they really um i i really need to probably get some new caging, get some, you know, just improve things overall. I've got some kind of janky stuff going on, like, you know, just like old stuff that I've had for a while.

And I just haven't taken the time to make new caging and get that squared away. I just need to get out there and do it. I keep using that as an excuse to buy new tools and then I buy the tools, but I don't use them to build the caging. So I need to just make that happen. But, you know, it's if it's not I don't know if it takes too much time, it usually gets put on the back burner. You know, something like stupid. You're a busy guy.

Yeah. What do you do? I did. I did learn from the chat about, uh, the, that cement, uh, hydraulic cement. I'm kind of excited about that. It's like fast drying and strong.

It won't chip as easily. So I'm going to try that out for some fake rock work and see if that helps me get excited about it. I got some of these cheap, like stacking, uh, um, they're like front opening stackable things. And, uh, you know, just shelves or whatever.

And they're perfect size for Antaresia. And I just want to do some like fake rock work and kind of, but I need a way to keep them closed. Cause they have kind of a magnetic close, but it's not strong enough to keep a snake from pushing the door open if it wanted to. And so I need to figure that out and, you know, get it, find a good way to probably put some heat cable under the fake rock or something and do something cool. Ah, DYI heat rocks. Yeah, exactly. What could go wrong, right?

DIY, whatever. DIE maybe if it's, if it goes the wrong way. I thought about using them for the, um, knob tail geckos too. So maybe that would be a better plan because they're not going to push the doors open, but I saw you were looking for an AMA. You were bidding on an AMA. So I've got, I've got a couple of males. If you want one of them, it was ill-advised.

It's you know, I didn't have the money to spend on it but i was trapped in a car and it looked cheap and pretty so yeah we find ourselves in those situations but someday that is a species i would love to work with they're very pokemon-esque yeah yeah i've got i i picked up a pair of uh the, the, I don't even know the common name. I don't either, but I know you're talking about. So, uh, and, uh, they're, they're doing good. They're pretty cool. I've got one white male and a black female.

So we'll see, see what I can get out of those guys. They're pretty cool. That's always been a dream species for me. And they've always been really difficult for people, but I was talking to some guys at Tinley and they're like, oh, man, I figured it out. I started producing a bunch of them and they're doing great. And here's the secret. I'm like, OK, well, maybe I'll try it out. Plus, the price was in half from what it has been previously.

So that helped a lot. Yeah, no doubt. That's awesome. I mean, those are really fantastic. Yeah, helped a lot. Yeah. That's awesome. I mean, those are really fantastic. Yeah. It's really a dream, but I mean, Amy, I asked for a share, all that stuff, but just that look truly, you know, so alien and whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Sentient rocks. Yeah. The Amy, I are my favorite geckos. They're so cool.

And that's what I'm hoping to find on the big 50th trip. So save up your money there, Lucas, you got to join us out there in Central. I would love to go find a Centralian. That's right. Live up to your namesake. I feel like nobody that I talked to in the NPR world has found one since Casey Cannon back in like 2018 or whatever. So we're due as a group. Has anybody been out there looking? Oh, I guess Matt was out there.

It does help to look. Matt on the podcast and he, he didn't see a Centralian, but. Yep. That's a, that's a, I went on my list and speaking of which I, I really enjoyed that show with Gavin. Eric sent me. Yeah, it was great. great truly truly great to have him you know it's a funny guy gonna do a standard student of the serpent or whatever and um you know it was great then to i mean essentially we had more or less same conversation we'd had in what november 1st 2019 or, uh, we were eating crock parm and all, uh, in Darwin.

So yeah, it was pretty cool. And then before the first time I held an Ellen Pelly python in Darwin, uh, botanical gardens. So that was something, Hey, um, but yeah, no, that was really good. He did awesome. And it was great to, yeah, get a chance to have him share so much of that stuff in a public space. Yeah. I always enjoy listening to his shows.

He was on the Aussie Wildlife Show, and that was a great episode as well. It was just really fun. I feel like we went a little bit longer and kind of maybe into a little bit additional depth or whatever because that was – I don't think it's still going at this point, but it was a little bit – the perspective obviously perspective obviously is a little bit different, but, uh, yeah, that was really good. And that was basically the only at one of the symposia that I was at. And, uh, and also we had a dinner with him at one point and I sat by him at dinner. It was really, I mean, he's just a wealth of knowledge and I'm really excited to get together with him again and pick his brain. And yeah, cause when, when we were in Darwin, um, we had one of those issues with the guy who put on the symposium was a dirt bag.

And so everybody kept their distance from us because of him, because we were coming to his symposium. So therefore we were also dirt bags, you know, it was like, we didn't know he was a dirt bag. We don't know. We just wanted a free trip to Australia to come and talk about reptiles. You know, we didn't care, but I mean, in retrospect, we did care because that dirt bag left me stranded in Darwin and, and I didn't, you know, but anyway, I think, um, Gavin did, uh, hang out or was welcomed us to croc crocosaurus cove. He wasn't there on the day I was there. And then when I found out I was being, um, swindled, he, the guy was the, you know, the organizer of the symposium stole my books and left me stranded in Darwin. And so I was trying to figure out how to get out of there. And, and so Nick and I didn't go to crocosaurus

cove and watch Rico and, um, Mark swim in the cage of death. And we kept teasing and saying, they had to go into Amplexus while they were in the age of death and we kept teasing saying they had to go into amplexus while they were in the cage of death that was kind of the running joke but um they didn't do it those wimps so anyway yeah we missed out on that which was kind of crappy so i feel bad about that you get swindled and stranded in unknown lands i think there's a bit of leeway there for yeah plans not going right. I was being kind of stubborn. I'm like, fine, I'm just going to stay here.

I'm going to stay in Darwin. You didn't leave me here. I left me here. I stayed. My own free volition. But yeah. I'll give you those books. The negative experiences of your first trip will just be building that much good credit towards when we go in the fall.

So that would be the hope, I guess, on my end. And I wonder, too, if that was kind of one of the reasons I didn't I wasn't really excited to go back there. I wonder if that might have been kind of subconsciously what was keeping me from it. It's like I just had such negative feelings there. You know, it's like I don't want to go. But, yeah, obviously that won't happen again. Hey, maybe a little Shay. I, before, uh, yeah, before the Amy, I, that'd be all right. You probably wouldn't be complaining too much. I'd get it. Yeah, exactly. If we can target those, that would be fantastic. And I'm sure, you know, we'll be in

the right places. Yeah. I know the spot we've been on, on the spot and all that. And yeah, I think Ryan Young saw Shay Shea Eye out there. You guys didn't see one, did you? No. Well, so I think there are a couple of spots that are close to where we were on, as I say,

on a spot that definitely suits it and where they're found and things, but not at night as we were at a different place at that time. So it's not, it would have been exceedingly have been exceedingly unlikely to see one in that context. So no, but yeah, I'd be excited to. Did see the big, what are the big cave geckos that are up there? Those are really cool. Yeah, I'd like to see those too. We saw an Oedura gemata, like the jeweled, uh, velvet gecko that was pretty

sweet. Yeah. All that. I mean, all those geckos up there are pretty cool for the most, for the most part. Maybe you've seen a couple, you know, a couple of gyra, you've seen them all, but other than that, you know, yeah, that's, I'm,

I'm really excited though, to get back up there and try, try for some, some of those things that I missed on the, on the first trip. I mean, we had a pretty good trip. We found a Darwin carpet the first night in in the area you know and um found an olive and a blackhead and all these cool so yeah blackhead yeah a breechy which is no longer a breechy apparently they got they sunk those into acanthurus but they're really cool with that

bright yellow throat and this one was kind of crazy looking to me at least i i think a couple australians are like ah they look like that around here so but right yeah is that this top ender form or whatever no no that's uh this year's with rob and eric and okay darwin yep and then the 50th is going to be central Australia. So is that 2025, 2025? Gotcha. All right. Yeah. Born in 75. So all the, all the fives are my zero years.

Ooh, that's easy. Yep. Yeah. Nice. So turning 50, it's kind of crazy, but yeah, hopefully it'll be a very good birthday. Lots of good stuff. And I, I did ask, I talked to Gab cause you know, him, him about his research reminded me, oh, yeah, he's the one to ask about Brett Eli and where to go for those. So, you know, I'm excited to pick his brain.

But, yeah, he said March would be a good time to be looking for Brett Eli. So see what happens. He said September or March. So we'll see. Epic. I guess we can make that work. Yeah. Just do both. Yeah. If March, I guess we can make that work. Yeah. Just do both.

Yeah. Yeah. There you go. I've, I've always wanted to drive from dark from a midnight oil song. They say Darwin down to Alice Springs. And so I thought someday I'm going to do Darwin down to Alice Springs. And that's what Matt did.

Matt teaching. So he beat, beat me to it, but that's not like a Justin-style trip. Exactly. Not Rob's style. That's all right, though. One funny humorous bit associated with sort of our, well, we've now done a half

dozen of these since Chuck had to take a step back and uh i think mostly it was my internet and certainly sort of the holiday as exemplified on the holiday show hopefully it sounds better maybe not perfect but better so far but um the uh that point was taken that uh we i've now had two different people send me a microphone to utilize when recording this podcast. I have yet to actually effectuate that and get it set up and whatever. Not from lack of appreciation, but I will do that. But, yeah, it's just been a timing thing. Been running crazy and all that.

But, yeah, that was pretty darn funny. Two people, unbeknownst to one another, said, act we hey and i don't know what's you know if they got a head injury or whatever but they're happy with the content but they wish it sounded a little bit better they actually want to hear what you have to say yeah weird enough so i think it was mostly the internet but uh two different microphones showed up at my house that was pretty funny yeah well hopefully you can put them to use soon. Yeah. Yeah. You can use both at the same time. Set up stereo and do surround sound. Yeah.

That'll be wild. People don't need that, but maybe that's what they want. They'll have a Rob Stone overload. They'll be like, it's too perfect. And their heads will explode. I feel like that's probably, it's already probably way too much, but there we go. So I did want to toss that out there. So thank you. That's what it really means to get stoned.

There you go. I, I, I will say though, with the, the Owen Pelley show, you asked some wonderful questions that I, you know, I was hoping that would be asked him. So yeah, thank you for, uh, I'm in there and getting your cut off more. No, that, but they were very like just the, the best questions you could ask. So yeah, that was,

I think you're, you're, you're really tuned into those kinds of things and, and do ask great questions and make great points. So I'm very happy you're on this podcast as well. So. Oh, good.

Well, lots of fun, but yeah. So thank you, Phil. Thank you, Rob Christian. Ah, excellent. Yeah. Rob contacted me. He's like, I want to send him a microphone. Can I send it to you? And you send it to him. And I said, well, how about I just give you his address and then you can send it yourself directly. He's like, yeah, that works. And I wanted it to come from him, not from, you know, for me. So yeah, that was, yeah, that works. I wanted it to come from him, not from me. Yeah, he's a nice guy.

What are you saying, Justin? Both Rob and Phil are about the best kind of people you could be around. So, yeah, they're good guys. A hundred percent. Yeah. They make me think I need to be a better person. I'm thinking, I need to start gifting people things. You know, on the last trip when Nipper gave us the book signed by, uh, the European field guide. Yeah. Yeah. Attenborough. Well, no, the, the, Oh yeah. That,

that was the one before. Yeah. All these different things. Yeah. I think that's really, I wasn't on the Florida one with you guys. So I missed out on that one, but yeah, just makes me think, man, I need to be a better person. Like bring, bring gifts to herb trips. Uh, uh, Keith and Teresa also brought like shot glasses that were engraved with, you know, um, I think our names on them or something. Yeah. It was really nice and really thoughtful. So makes me want to be better. And then we get to the next trip and I'll be like, Oh crap,

I got to leave in three days. What crap can I give these guys? Here's a slim jam. Enjoy. Everybody gets a Lake Tupala garter snake, baby. Yeah. Lucas has a Tupperware.

We're like, he's going to try to give us a garter snake. It's been known to happen. Oh man. Yeah. That's a squeeze to happen oh man yeah that's uh schweezetastic man those garter snakes there's there's some cool garter snakes i will i will admit that i do want to go find that really weird one down in arizona the the narrow-headed or whatever. Yeah. Cool. On the rim. Yeah. Yeah. I'm actually headed down to the grand Canyon. So my, uh, daughter, uh, she wanted to do a canyoneering trip kind of for spring break. And so I'm like, yeah, I could arrange that. My buddy down in Phoenix is just, he's the man when it comes to that stuff. And so I was like, Hey, we want to come down to

Phoenix and do some canyoneering. He's like, what do you think about the grand Canyon? Would you want to do a trip down? I'm like, you can canyoneer in the grand Canyon. Like, heck yeah. So we're going to try to do that. He said, unless it rains because the pools and stuff are like this clear blue color. And if it rains and they get all muddy and gross. So he's like, you want to go two weeks, at least after rain. So we're going to kind of play it by ear as we get closer, but we're going down there the end of the month and, uh, that sounds amazing. Do something in the grand Canyon. I might, I might have to, uh, preempt our trip and yeah, exactly. Find something down there. And my dad's like, I think that's on the

South rim. And I was thinking, well, we're coming kind of from the North. So I, you know, I don't, I don't recall us going, you know, underneath the, it turns out it's like on the East Rim or whatever, you know, it kind of curves up and around and it's on the Navajo land. So you have to get a permit from the Navajo nation to go down there, but hopefully it works out. I'm excited. My daughter's excited. So, and all my other daughters are all mad. They're like, dad, you know, we want to go to the Grand Canyon.'ve never taken us there i'm like okay we've done like three trips to to like southern california to go to the beach you could have said one of those trips you want to go to the grand canyon but i've never heard you say it that emphatically so yeah but i guess we got to take

them all to the grand canyon but then i'm, you guys want to go canyoneering? They're like, no, but we want to go to the Grand Canyon. I'm like, okay, fine. Yeah. I ruined a few of them with my misadventures, but what do you do? They don't like to. They're either super in or super out, right? At this point.

This daughter is probably forgotten because she was somewhat younger. So she, she forgot the, okay. So this is the trip that'll do it. I'll fix her somehow. Yeah. The misadventures of the Jew landers. What do you do? Oh, well, anything else of note happen we want to chat about or you guys ready

rob are you making any snakes not right now uh maybe later in the year all my stuff is sort of spring breeder style with rhino rats probably um puerto rican bo, assuming that the, you know, not a, not a pressure on it, but assuming the female I've won female that every other year, she's just like, this is what's happening. And so obviously have to respect and abide some abide. That's cool. And those are a gift only, right? You can't sell those. So that's a cool project. Yeah. Yeah. I like that kind of stuff. I need to read about those things. I got that book and I haven't really cracked it open

yet. I've looked through it, but I haven't. It's pretty heavy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It seems like more of a scientific work than a, than a leisurely read. So yeah, for sure. Yeah. It's cool. Cool. I'm ready to throw some haymakers. You got some Aspidites coming. You got some. I'm too eager to fight. More garter snakes on the way.

Well, you know, it's funny. The garter snake thing has become a running joke, but they're actually almost gone. I do need to make more. So I think she's working on it. And yeah, I'm expecting two clutches of Womas. A possible third. I didn't think that the third girl was going to go, but she is upside down now and looks to be proving me wrong. Outside of that, hoping for blackheads. One of the females is looking very promising.

It's all food, and I can feel egg-shaped things in there. So that's a good sign. Maybe this is the year we do the swap. Yeah, exactly. um unfortunately the swap yeah exactly i was gonna say unfortunately that one is uh with the mail that nick sent me so if it all works out and i don't kill them then i have to send something to that guy uh but uh yeah um yeah and then hopefully brettles but like Rob said, you know, talk to me in four months or whatever. Yeah. That's about it. I still have a few breadals left over from a couple of seasons ago.

So I'm not reading more until I get rid of those. Totally. They're such cool snakes and you know, it's my lack of putting up ads. I'm sure. Cause yeah, they're pretty stellar looking. I look at your website. It's like the definition of insanity. I check about once every two weeks and it's last updated 2022. Damn it. Actually, I just updated it last week, but, uh, I didn't update it or anything.

I just put a visit page of from Utah, Utah herb trip. So you can see pictures of our Utah herb trip. And well, that's kind of cool. I'll do that too. Yeah. That's Dan corrected.

I think I put up our, I don't know if I've made it live yet, but I put up our Arizona trip with the, the twin spots too. So, okay. Um, the 20,

well, that's very cool cool but i just see a list of womas that i can't buy from 2022 that say outstanding perfect example they were very very nice i know that i'm sad like more well you have some very nice bloodlines i'm sure i could manage a swap with you now we're talking yeah let's do it yeah yeah oh i did pair the wheat belts you sent me since they're kind of like why not right but i don't think that's gonna happen yeah yeah i'm just glad they're not killing each other oh yeah they they they're pretty good together like they i mean they they like their food but they're fairly good when you get them out and then breeding i haven't ever had any issues except the very first pair that i got out of europe the female killed them right yeah and yeah that was kind of crappy but what do you

do good to know i guess i'll cohab them all yeah hey well actually let's let's have you kind of tell us where you fit into herpiculture maybe, I mean, introduce yourself a little bit, but I'm sure probably everybody knows Lucas from NPR fame, but whatever you've heard is, is it's a, it's not true, especially if Owen McIntyre said it. hear from the horse's mouth. My name is Lucas. I live in Oakland and I keep and attempt to breed a pretty diverse, but somewhat consistent collection of Australian pythons, various colubrids. I'm back in the dwarf monitor game after departing briefly um the tristess or something else tristess and i got akis again too and eric might send me his kim i'm in trouble i sold off the rest of mine they just weren't i missed them i really missed them they didn't make sense to keep from like a,

you know, if you're thinking of like a business perspective, but from like a loving the animal perspective, I really missed them. Yeah. So that's why I got back. Getting some, some sort of dwarf monitor.

I'll probably get Gill and I, just cause they're smaller. I can keep. That would be cool. Yeah. They're still, and I are really cool as well. I'm totally glowered.

I, but, uh, Gill and I, yeah, I haven't kept a couple of them. That was really cool animals as well. Yeah. Gil and I are really cool as well. Yeah. I'm totally. I think Gloward Eye, but Gil and I, yeah, I haven't kept a couple of them. Those are really cool animals as well. Yeah. If I had the opportunity, I'd also do it. Yeah.

They're a little larger than Gloward Eye, so Gil and I would probably get in better. Well, just that tail, man. Otherwise, maybe body length. Their bodies are pretty good size for a mile. They're pretty similar. Gil and I tend to be heavier, though, I think. You know, because glower-eyed, man, they're race cars. They're just these super long, thin.

That's true. The gill and I were, yeah, more half to them. And maybe about the same snout to vent on old ones. Yeah. Okay. But it's just the tail you know those glower dye tails obviously big tail what they're two two and a half times that body length and they're cool yeah unless you don't keep yeah you should get eric to send you his that yeah there you go

the answer is you should have eric send you his i think that's what's happening um it was supposed to be in a box from Owen, but he couldn't get off work. Classic Eric stuff. Yeah. But let's see. Should I keep going? Is that enough?

Well, do you want to know more about me? You're like, what are you? So I, I know you from, I served on your committee. So this is true. This is true.

Masters. Yeah. So I did get my master's in zoo science with Dr. Lofman through West Liberty University. So the evidence-based herpetoculture lab there, which was a great time. Prior to that, I kind of cut my teeth working at East Bay Vivarium, getting hands-on with a whole bunch of stuff without needing to bring it home, which is wonderful. And yeah, I've been keeping since about 2018 now so yeah yeah not that long but in the course of my life you're involved in carpets and coffee and this is true yes you just co-hosted with eric on that on that show

where i own couldn't make it or something with the at. At some point, Eric made himself available to me and I grabbed on and he hadn't been able to shake me since. So yeah, you'll hear me on various podcasts. And as you said, Carpets and Coffee every other Monday. Yeah. Yeah. Good times. And I work as a biologist, but cool. What do you do?

What are your, what are your, uh, I work in environmental consulting. Um, so a lot of my field work revolves around, uh, Alameda whip snake, uh, San Francisco Carter, giant garter snake, uh, red-legged frog, tiger salamander. We've got a bunch of listed herps out here that, uh, there's a lot of red tape for people trying to build things. And that's where we come in. That's good. Somebody's got to stop them from paving over all the habitat. Have you seen, uh, San Francisco garters in the wild then? I have not, but a lot of my coworkers have, I just haven't been at the right place at the

right time. Okay. That would be a cool trip. In a couple of weeks. That's right. Yeah. We're going for it. All right. Good luck. That's cool. Yeah. That would, that's another one that's on the bucket list someday. I'd love to see. Yeah. It looks like you're not allowed to interact with them at all. So you just kind of see them from a distance and take some pictures. Hope you have a good lens. Hopefully we can get a couple of photos that'll make you anxious to give it a go. Yeah. Yeah. Good luck you guys. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I'm sure we'll report back.

Yeah. And it's not too hard of a trip for me, you know, living in Northern Utah, it's just kind of straight across almost. I'll put you up anytime. Yeah. You can sleep in the snake room. Right on. I've done that a few times. Cool. Well, I'm glad to have you on finally. I, again, I feel bad. We haven't had you on earlier, but this is, this is good timing. This will be good. Okay.

A lot of pent up fight club rage. I'm ready to throw, throw down. Now you've also got the last episodes that I'd really like to hear, but you're a co-host. With Nick? Yeah. Like, come on. I'd like to hear them too. Yeah. Well, they're recorded somewhere, right?

Does Eric have access to those? Great question. I don't know. Sell them on the Patreon or something. I think that they live. I have some, but then there were a bunch of other ones that I want to listen back to more that I believe live on the video editors computer because Nick wanted to do a

video thing. So, yeah, but anyway, I don't know. Nick wanted to do a video thing. So, yeah. But anyway, I don't know. And now Scott and Ty are coming for that corner, hey? Are they doing a video thing? No, not in terms of the video, but in terms of the NPR. In terms of making a podcast, yeah.

You snooze, you lose, Nick. Oh, no, don't taunt him. He doesn't taunt him. He doesn't listen to this. He's going to blame me anyway. He listens to no podcast. I made that assumption, and then he called me out on something I said on Carpets and Coffee, and now I just tiptoe. I've heard you say a few things on Carpets and Coffee. You're right.

I don't tiptoe at all, but it's okay. I'd say it to his face, too. Yeah. He needs it. I love't tiptoe at all, but it's okay. I'd say it to his face too. Yeah. He needs it. I love that guy, but yeah. Well, the only way he could prove us wrong would be to release that content. There you go. I'll have to find this gentleman and steal his hard drive.

Exactly. Video guy. No, there was a really good talk with Dale DiNardo. The video guy is not the same dude who did the same thing with the – A, the previous podcast and B, a certain magazine. Is that all that same person? That might be, but I don't know. I didn't say anything. Yeah, right. I mean like at some point – OK.

Whatever. Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever. Lucas shall remain neutral. Fool me twice. And you're going to fool me again. All right. For a tenth time.

Fool me six times. You're in trouble. Fool me seven times. I'm coming after you. All right. Well, tonight we're going to talk about cohabiting and, uh, the pros and cons of, of said cohabiting and maybe some experiences we've had or, um, to one side or the other. So, and, uh, yeah, it should be a fun topic for sure.

Any, uh, particular aspect of cohabiting that we want to hit on or just kind of in general i think we uh just go go for it yeah i mean i think from all angles yeah 100 i think this had kind of come to my awareness right because i'm mostly off the social media stuff because keith had sent a message expressing his frustration about a topic pertaining to leopard geckos, which seemed very bizarre to me. You know, in a crude chat, I was like, what could be the genesis for this, right? And it turns out it was associated with someone putting out content where I guess a creator, I think, again, and I could be misunderstanding it because I missed the first wave. I was just trying to pick up the pieces.

The guy who does the Wiccans, Wicked Reptiles, put out a video or something saying he's doing a build and he was going to put in a male and five female leopard geckos in this cage. And apparently, I don't even know all the inner dynamics that are at play here, but ultimately that was deemed to be problematic in some way. And that's sort of, you know, either side of that is basically what brought this to the fore of saying, okay, we can talk through it because I do think there are strong positives and negatives. Frankly, I'd be happy to either argue a single side or be the moderator on this one because I think there are persuasive points to both. And a lot of it reflects the different species and the experience of the person doing it, not to mention the enclosure, all these different things. There's a ton of variables that go into it like anything. But, yeah, that's kind of how we came to be here.

Let's be relatively timely. And I do think there are good, good points to either side. Yeah, I agree. All right. Well, go ahead and call it Rob and we'll see who gets to fight Lucas. Heads. It is tails. Another, you won last, last time. So i did win last time right so who do i fight i'll take you both you two can team up that's fine i'm not scared man look at the cockiness on this one i'm just glad chuck's not here

um yeah well i don't know i think i think where you've been kind of kicking things around and, and, uh, thinking about it, maybe I'll, I'll let you go and I'll moderate this one, Rob. And then, and then for which side, I mean, I'm sure I'll kick in there with something or other. Cause I, I do enjoy cohabiting, but all right. And then, uh, Lucas, you want to call it? Hmm. All right. And then, Lucas, you want to call it? Tales. Oh, please. Tales. It is Tales. Uh-huh. You get the size that you want. It's always Tales.

Is it? Yeah, I guess it was twice today. Skit. Now I have to make a decision. I will argue against it, even though I absolutely do it. But that sounds more fun today. Okay. Well, as the winner of the coin toss, you get to decide who goes first. I defer.

You're going to chuck him, huh? All right. Rob, lead us out. In honor of mr poland well fabulous well i would say one of the principal advantages of uh keeping animals together but we can even go to the example that was said here right is the you're allowing them to fill their natural behaviors by giving them access to one another perhaps unnaturally uh point to lucas but um you're giving them sort of perpetual access. I know, Dr. J., you're well on record of liking to keep pairs of animals together, assuming that they do well in that environment, right? You're not doing it if they're consistently combating for food or if you're not providing enough options for them to get access to their fundamentals, right? Heat and food, heat, food, water, all these different things,

maybe conditions where they could shed properly, all this different stuff. If those things are met, then you don't even notice them breeding because they're attuned to one another. It's not an artificial stimuli of you placing them together when you think it's the right time. And often you just either arrive to find a beautiful pile of eggs or arrive a week after you've been away to find a pile of eggs that didn't look quite as good as it did a week before. So I think it does allow them to effectuate their natural behavior. And yeah, it's really cool as well. Well, in some cases, though, that natural behavior might be ones that you do not want to allow to be

effectuated is that the big word you used sorry i missed it um for instance uh i just had two rhinos almost kill each other because of their natural inclinations. And if I had not been cohabiting them, no blood would have been shed. In addition, your point about big asterisk. Yes, cohabiting is absolutely fine. Big asterisk. If everybody can have their food, heat, water, shelter, blah, blah, blah needs met in this utopian enclosure in which that is the case with what people are working with. And I would point to an example that I had. I had a pair of Aki monitors in a very large enclosure. And, you know, this had multiple basking sites, multiple hides, multiple water sources, everything, you know, threefold for the animals that they could want. And yet still, the dominant male kept the female. Essentially, he would bully her into the nest box and wouldn't let her leave.

And she almost passed. I had to spend a lot of money at the vet because she was dehydrated. She wasn't eating. There was a whole bunch of problems associated with that. So while I do agree that there are instances where this can work, I don't necessarily know that there is ever a benefit to anybody but the keeper. I know it's economical for us. I know that we can see interactions that we might perceive as, oh, they're cute. They're cuddling. They're laying together. They are choosing to be with each other. But

is that really of benefit to the animal where in the wild, they could get away from each other whenever they wanted, whenever they felt they were done and then they can't do that in these boxes. And I, yeah, I guess I should also say say I'm definitely thinking about this mostly from like a snake and lizard perspective I'm sure that there's other things that do better together but let me get this straight you

kept a pair of male rhino rats together well I'm glad you asked you did get to find something out and that was, quote, pair of rhino rat snakes were actually two males. You found something out. Thanks, Dr. Loafman. A path of discovery.

Yeah, you wouldn't have learned that otherwise. You wouldn't have known. Well, until I tried to breed them. But yes, point taken. Yeah. I see what you mean. Right. Yeah, I was to breathe them. But yes, point taken. Yeah. I see what you mean. Right. Yeah.

I was thinking that same point. The other thing that I would say, right, is an enclosure, what you're finding is there does seem to be sort of a best basking spot or a best access to water or best, quote, best, right, or a preferential, best reflecting seeming preference, right? Even if there are multiple, it doesn't, they're not necessarily, we might perceive them to be equitable, but it doesn't mean necessarily that the animals themselves will perceive them that way. So that's sort of where I expected you were going. The notion of then just sort of being shunted to the side that low period when the Glauridae availability in the States probably went into either low, double, or single digits before they started coming back in with those cleared paperwork and all that stuff. But yeah, I've definitely seen it. I've definitely seen it. I had what turned out to be six male Pilbarenstis or, you know, Hemersliances Pilbarenstis, the U.S., right? U.S. Pilbarenstis, which could be, you know, a one or both or a mix.

And then they were all Pilbarenstis, right? Yeah. Right. You know, where that caused its own set of problems. So I certainly can appreciate where you're going with that. You know, I do think that's something. And I do think in terms of monitors, right, we see stuff that we know of scientifically, right, in terms of fish.

And I think veranids have shown that they do the same thing, where if you go back to, you know, Love, Robin, and Chad, but if you were to go back in on the Wayback Machine, let's say, you'll see content that says, hey, whenever we raise up three Achanthuras together, it magically looks like 1.2. 95% of the time, it magically looks like 1.2, meaning that it's 1.2 being the natural implication there. And I know that that's not right. And I think the phenomenon that we're seeing is sort of the sneaker male situation where you have these males that appear to be females, whether they then will breed as males or not, you know, sort of. But it certainly speaks to groups of monitors from the late 90s through the, you know, through to 2010 or whatever, where people are taking that mindset and saying, hey, I'm just going to these monitors. You have

to raise them as hatchlings together, and then you magically always wind up with these groups that look like a dominant male, and the rest appear to be female. But some of those never produce eggs. And the answer, to my mind at least, is that those that look like females doesn't mean that they're actually females. It just means they haven't developed the secondary characteristics that we associate with the male form. And so those groups where it's, oh, it's one point, they look like 1.2. I mean, you know, you got one that is obviously a male, and then you have two that look like females. But in reality, I've seen it where it's three males. So that's obviously a social impact, right? The social lives of reptiles, right? That's at play there. So you are effectuating that behavior. And Lucas, I don't think it's wrong to say that there's certainly an ethical question, if not problem, with forcing that's totally fair. At the same time, hey, you mentioned that cute and cuddly picture.

Yeah, they are cute and cuddly. I'm glad you admitted that. So I'll get it. You can say some more. I've just said a bunch. I don't know how responsive I was. that the biggest plus in the column for cohabiting is kind of exposing behaviors that we can observe that are unique to that situation. Is that fair to say? Does that feel like an oversimplification of your point?

I don't know. My point might just be that it's cool and they're beautiful and you're allowing them to effectuate their, you know. That is might just be that it's cool and they're beautiful and you're allowing them to effectuate their – That is the word, effectuate. Yes. Effectuate their natural behaviors. But I would say, again, that is purely for the benefit of the observer in many cases. That doesn't necessarily mean that the behaviors in question are of benefit to the animal. In fact, maybe they are a product of, uh, stress of, um, you know, negative, uh, states

of being that we might just perceive as something needs to observe. How does it benefit the animal? Can I jump in real quick? Yeah, go for it, Justin. I just had, I can't stand this. Oh God, I'm having flashbacks to my thesis. Especially where Lucas has challenged us both and got so cocky with it. But I would probably bring up in regards to lizards, like lizards tend to be much, and I think snakes to a certain

degree are also social in some ways, you know, we, we don't know a ton about it, but I think keeping lizards by themselves sometimes is almost like, you know, putting something in solitary confinement. If they don't have that group structure, um, I mean, in, in nature you go and you find a side blotch lizard male and there's two or three females around his rock and he's fighting with another male on this other rock you know so he's got his little territory and you know so i think lizard lives especially almost require some sort of cohabitation to to keep with you properly so they don't go crazy.

I will concede that in the cases of lizards with a definite, objective social structure and sociality that is just, that's just a fact. I will concede that obviously you should keep them that way. Same for potentially like a colony of garter snakes or something like that. I think that we can all agree that if it is part of their natural history to

live in a family unit or to congregate, then that's different. So I would, can we perhaps agree on that point and proceed in this debate with everything else i think but i mean there is some complexity i'll give an example i wanted to bring this one up but my friend had a group of treeskings a gurney astral strata and had uh they had babies right and so there were five or six babies and pretty and everybody was harmonious. And but they were kind of overrunning the the capacity of the cage and more babies were

coming or whatever. So he separated out the babies. And once he put he took those babies and put them in another cage, all of a sudden, all hell broke loose and three of them got beat up to the point where they couldn't even be saved. And like, so, I mean, it was a bloodbath. And, uh, so you had a, you know, a defined structure with the, with the parents, but then as soon as you take them out, they're fighting for position or whatever. So, I mean, you do have to understand, you know, kind of the, the social structure and maybe in a lot of cases, we don't understand that and we don't know, but you know, I, I don't know that I would have thought that much. Like I would have thought, Oh, you just put them in a separate enclosure and everything will be fine. But we do know,

you know, if there's multiple males in there, that can be problematic. And until we get, you know, Ben develops his, uh, sexing for skin sheds of, uh, uh, skinks, uh, we're kind of stuck, you know, working things out and just paying attention. I don't think anybody's suggesting cohabitation as a set it and forget it. You know, you do have to keep an eye on things and make sure that you're intervening when it doesn't work out. The two things that jump out to me are kind of the point you raised there, Dr. J., in terms of I do think it requires more engagement these creatures, as opposed to saying, no, they want to be safe and totally alone, desolate in a six-quart Rubbermaid box, right? Those are two different approaches. And I wonder, right, coming all of us, you know, particularly Lucas, are coming out of a time frame that's all about

sort of the sterile keeping, right? That's the one perspective where at least Justin and I have some more of sort of the Philippe school of, you know, creating these, creating environments where the stuff can engage with one another. That I think just in hearing, hearing the conversation, right? I can't help but feel that part of the language that speaks to, they do best by themselves, isolated in little tiny boxes, comes from sort of the commercialism associated with math. Who said little tiny boxes? I don't think anybody said that. Or it could be a slightly larger box.

In either case, to the point that you made, right, and I do think there's a ton of fairness to it of saying, like, sure, if they're in a football field size environment, right, there are places for animals to remove themselves from one another with safety. That regardless of the size of the cage, almost certainly that's going to be space limited so that we can't provide an equivalent situation. I totally acknowledge that. I think that's totally fair that there's the capacity to get away unconstrained by a cage will exceed that that is constrained by a cage. Absolutely. But I just kind of wonder if a lot of the language around, hey, everything needs to be kept individually is related with keeping a lot of things

and kind of the preference for sort of the big breeder style mentality that we touched on last week. But I feel that there's an inherent contradiction in that point in that by definition, you can have more animals and fit more animals into the same space if you're cohabiting. So wouldn't cohabiting be more favorable if your goal was to be big box store and have as much going on as possible? It depends. So I think it depends, right? So if you're talking about putting adult cow kings in a six-quart tub, that's probably, you know, I mean, there's only so much you can fit into that space if that's our size definition. But, yeah, so it all depends on the enclosure that you're putting them in with

and are you acknowledging that, hey, the potential that things could go poorly. So that probably means that you have to have an empty tub. For every tub that has a pair of snakes, you also need to have an empty tub to be able to pull them apart should there be an issue or to feed them. You know, some things you can feed together when you keep them together. Other things, you're asking for trouble. And it certainly means that you've got to stand there and wait until they fully eat it or you might end up with one instead of two.

So, I mean, done properly, no, it won't save you any space because each one will have to have their own separate space that you could put them in, right? I mean, if you're responsible, then that's the case. But are we saying that everybody's responsible? Well, that would be the position that I would advocate. You know, whether people do that or not, people do all sorts of crazy stuff. I think inherently my snake bias is showing, right? And so I'll again say that I've never kept lizards without cohabiting, and that's probably a better case for many species of lizard. However, I do think when, and you know, of course you just brought up the point of needing to feed animals in a cohab situation and how much can go wrong there, how much extra work that

creates, how much extra handling in many cases when animals need to be separated, which is, you know, for some critters rather stressful. We just heard Dr. Gavin Bedford say that messing with an Owen Pelly once made it not eat for another four months. You know, these aren't trivial things. I would clarify that he was talking about a four hour interaction that was supposed to be, what, 15, 20 minutes.

So I don't know that – Objection. Hearsay. He did highlight that he perceives the animals to perceive him, right? And so that there's a difference between how he – Yes. And I believe that too. The response to him and other people.

I've heard that from many people. I think there's something to that. I'm not discounting it by framing it in that way. I'm just trying to be clear on that. Let the record show. I don't think that's exactly the situation that he was describing. I think he could probably separate it. Certainly not.

I invoked this example simply to highlight how devastating a spike in these stress hormones can be for these animals. And if we're talking about needing to handle some high-stress animal every time we need to feed it because of a cohab situation, well, that could be pretty deleterious. I wanted to – That's species by species, right? And certainly – Everything is species by species. Well, maybe the point that I would just want to highlight, and I respect what you're saying there, is just that, like, to me, and I don't know that I framed this really well before, right, in terms of the commercial aspect and whatever.

In that framework, I guess in my mind, what I'm imagining is someone needs to make the interactions they have with a given ecosystem, right, the given cage, as quick as possible. If you're going to cohab animals, right, you're going to have to double the time, at least double the time that you're interacting to perform that feeding, because you can totally successfully manage it. But I say double because they're the two animals together, but in reality it's probably tripling, quadrupling, whatever, the amount of time, because you have to fully see the process through. This is not throwing in a defrosted mouse and seeing what happened.

This is waiting for them to fully consume each item. And if you're feeding multiple items in one go, I mean, literally, we could be talking about 10, 15, 20 minutes. A pair of rhino rats in an enclosure, hey, you got to have four that are thawed out, ready to go. And you're just feeding, oh, oh, oh. And then if they get to the last one and the last one still isn't fully done, then you pull it out and whatever. So all that stuff that's going to take, I don't know, between five and 10 times longer than it would if you kept in separately and just tossed in something and closed the tub.

Yes, indeed. So it definitely, no doubt, makes the keeper's life harder and it raises the level of risk for the animals involved inherently to injure one another perhaps themselves um it does demand a greater degree of competency from the keeper i i will uh it does indeed to concede that point happy and will you also concede easy it was for the ease of the keeper, Lucas. I said it's – I didn't say for the – Some people do that. Excuse me. I meant it's for ease of shoving as many animals into a small space as possible.

Yeah, but nobody is arguing that works. Like that, yeah. I agree. And I do think that to Lucas's point, a lot of, a lot of these things like, you know, cohabiting and, and, and buying, like, like we talked about with the monitor world where they said, Oh, if you buy, you know, three animals, you'll probably get a pair. And if you buy five animals, you're guaranteed to get a trio or whatever, you know, and so, you know, this, the salesman technique of, you know,

and then you wind up with five male, uh, Pilbarenzus and, oh wait, and I don't think it was even intent with maybe one exception. Uh, I don't think it was intended to be deceitful, right? They genuinely look like you have a male and four female, you know, like that. I don't, and then it's just confusing why it doesn't, why it doesn't produce anything or it produces less than it seems like it should, right? It'll be like, I only get one clutch of eggs out of this 1.4 group. Wait.

That all kind of came from Frank Redius. And after years and years of this, I heard him tell people it works best in pairs. You can do trios, but it works best as pairs. And I think that kind of went against what we heard in the early 90s. And probably pairs that are raised to where they're showing their secondary sexual characteristics separately and then finding a pair that will go together, that will accept being in the presence of one another. That's really probably the ideal way to pair monitors at this point okay and i think even frank what came to that hold on rewind record scratch it makes things harder for the keeper and it increases the inherent risk for the animals not you use that as a point against me as i'm just saying there's no you know

points oh is it not really a fight anymore well i'm just i'm just sorry i thought we were fighting i'm just in the in the realm of reality well then okay well then i don't i need to change my whole persona then because i do go have it's an oversimplification to say that it results in damage to the animals. I didn't say damage in all cases. I said it increases risk. Oh, yeah. To feed cohab animals. Yeah.

Well, I mean, theoretically. So what's the pro? I hear a lot of cons. Like they'll eat their own tails. Like we've all been there. I mean I've been wanting to cite this for a little bit here. There's a cohab exhibit at the California Academy of Sciences, an AZA-accredited institution in San Francisco, where there are I believe four Pret Brettles pythons and four Woma pythons in a cylindrical, tall enclosure where the Womas are mostly terrestrial on the floor

and the rocks and the Brettles have branches to get out of there. Now, I have a coworker who is a biologist at said institution. And I know for a fact that after every time they feed those animals, they now have a protocol where they have to wash every single one because the Womas will try to eat anything that moves when they put them back in there because everything smells like rodent. How is that of benefit to anybody except the third graders on their field trip that see a lot of snakes? Coming to appreciate the beauty of reptiles? I mean, coming to become fascinated with Australia? Expanding their minds. What that that's nothing. No, that's not nothing. However, are we arguing that cohabiting is good for educating the public or whether it's a good practice for herpetoculture?

Well, it probably is actually good for educating the public, right? Because the biggest question when folks go to a zoo or aquarium is, can they see the animal within what, five or 10 seconds? And if the answer is no, then they wind up moving on. So that's not making much of an impact if you have one animal in there that's hidden away. So yeah, probably cohabiting does influence the capacity of a given enclosure to influence someone's life. And citing AZA, they have a lot of crazy rules. Like, I mean, that could make no difference at all if you wash the snakes. Now, obviously, they have to do certain things or else they're not AZA accredited. They have to put a lot of them on every cage. Also, I don't know if I was supposed to talk about that.

So all the listeners are pinky promise to secrecy about that. Yeah. Thanks, guys. Sounds like a good practice so there was a there was a confiscation of some lizards by and and they went to a major zoo and we went and saw them at this major zoo and they had them all in the same cage even though i mean technically they were all the same species they were all a gurney of depressa at the time and this was before the big split but the person who brought them out of Australia knew that they were different and kept, you know, Epsisolus in another corner. They were all separate and you could see kind of battle scars and things.

And we said, now, why are you keeping these all in the same cage? They're obviously different. They're obviously choosing separate sides of the enclosure. Why aren't you separating them? You know, it looks like they've got some damage. Ah, they're fine. No big deal. Like this is one of the biggest zoos in the world.

It's like, come on, guys. Really? So is your point that my point is if the keeper is not in tune, yes, it can be a negative thing. But if it's somebody like myself and notices these things and says, okay, it's time to separate these groups into the groups that they're preferring, you know, like this, this one's, this one's a antisocial. I'm going to take this one out and maybe, and see how the interaction goes from there. You know, if you're keep paying attention, it does demand that responsivity. Yeah, Absolutely. So it does take more time, but at the same time, the animals that have that social structure in nature,

like a gurney, a depressa, they, they want to be in a group. They, they, which fit under my asterisk from earlier of, you know,

no, no contest, but what it sounds like, what I'm hearing here in the fight club, then it's in the exception okay fair enough no what i'm hearing is a consensus from from both of you that what i have been saying is correct uh which is that cohabiting is pretty much only for the benefit.

No, no, no, no. I think Rob brought that observation. My favorite part of cohabiting that Rob brought up was that they know each other's cycles. So you don't have to introduce them every week and make sure that they're there, you know, that you witness a copulation or whatever you, you're there together. They know each other's cycles. They don't have to breed. You know, you're not tiring out your male with endless breeding introductions and strategies because they know their cycle. They know when the female's receptive.

So they, they, they breed at that time and no other time. It's not for recreation. It's for procreation. So they, they get the job done. You hardly ever see it. And then you see eggs. And it works out like a dream. And when the females obviously grab it, I'll take the male out so he doesn't cause any undue stress. And things work great. Because you have a separate cage for him because you're not utilizing this as an opportunity to trap more things in the same box. It's not cohabiting per se. It's extensive pairing but no i'll sometimes

i'll leave them in there the female way and it's not a big deal right or if it's an off season like occasionally i'm sure you had seasons where they didn't produce anything despite being you know paired together that whole time honestly i thought there's also cases where they'll get bread and death because they're always together well yeah i mean let me put a pin in that one we'll put it i'm just trying to fight guys i don't know i've never seen that with snakes like you know oh false water cobras absolutely well i don't keep those crazy things that means they don't exist then they don't exist then. They don't exist. Exactly.

The part I was going to say, what I assumed the grievance with the Wiccans build would push would be against hey you're just going to make all these leopard geckos and they're all going to be half siblings and all this stuff if that would be how i think as well keep track of it but i don't think that's what people were mad about i think if if i'm interpreting it correctly i think that the beef was more about the just concept of keeping leopard geckos together at all and the amount of animals in the space. Not just singly, right? Right. Yeah. No, I think I take it that same way, but that was a surprise, you know, again, coming to this late and then with sort of a different perspective, I was just sort of befuddled about that because I would have assumed, I do think there's something to be said for that, right? Maybe the, one of the biggest cons associated with cohabitation, at least to

the extent that you are talking about, you know, a mixed gender pair would be the possibility of reproduction, meaning animals that you don't necessarily have a home or a market for. And that's sort of where I thought that would go, right? Is why can't it just be those five females together? You know, that sort of natural implication with that mixed gender situation that you were going to produce more offspring. That's what I assumed it would be. And then it wasn't, which I found pretty weird. Right. I see what you're saying. Yeah. They would have still burned him at the stake. Right. Which was, which is super, just super strange. And I mean, pretty unfathomable. I mean, I guess an aspect of this to consider, right, is sort of what are the implications of the educational materials, whatever form that might take of the content that has been put out there over time that has brought us to from the universe where leopard gecko breeding and captivity literally went from people are overstating it a little bit i think it was you know cattle stock ron tramper cattle stock troughs with five males and a hundred females

or whatever right so that actually the situation where within that maybe there there was such density as we talked about earlier that you could actually put together multiple leopard male leopard geckos without an issue but that's the universe that we've come from. And now the notion that you would keep two together is, um, you know, beyond the pale is really something and suggest maybe we need to critically evaluate the content that we're putting out and whether it kind of where we're at. It raises all, nobody would fight that. And, uh, I'll, I'll go ahead and I'll drop the, the devil's advocate fighting, uh, persona and persona and we can just chat now. But basically what I would say is I think when people are writing these internet care sheets or filming their how to take care of this species videos for YouTube, I think that the cop out is to just always say cohabitating not recommended and then you're free of any liability as a author or creator for anything that might go wrong um that doesn't mean in any

case that it can't be done or that it shouldn't be done i just think it's a it has become a universal way of washing hands of any potential problem that somebody could come back and say, look what you've done. My beloved Jeffrey is dead. of keepers entering the hobby, digesting that information as their proprietary source of knowledge, uh, would lead to a general populace that would point at cohabiting leopard geckos as a satanic practice. I didn't know you could keep them individually. I thought they were always cohabitated. Maybe that's being brought up in the box store mentality of, you know, keeping reptiles and just producing everything you can. And I mean, that was the common practice, right?

To have a tub with one male and five females. One male and three to five females and go in there with african fat tails i would have people when i was working at the vivarium come try to fight the employees a few times a week about multiple leopard geckos being for sale in the same enclosure bearded dragons etc etc um so yeah So, yeah. Again, now dropping the persona, I feel that the correct and nuanced way to discuss this is that, like you've been saying, there are situations where it totally works and you might just have to be a little bit more on top of your, you know what, as a keeper. There are situations where it totally works and you really don't need to be. I keep entire litters of garter snakes together. I feed them together. There are nothing bad happens.

It's fine. You know, it is completely species dependent and environment dependent, animal dependent, you dependent. How much time are you available to watch and make sure things are actually going well? Do you have the time to separate the animals and see this feeding process through like Rob was describing earlier? So like all these fights. And there can be times where that's not true, right? Yeah, to your point, right? like Rob was describing earlier. So like all these fights. Yeah, to your point, right? That's not always where I do think it demands a greater level of availability, skill, and care

that's being put into it. And we're not all universally available to meet those needs, right? And so sometimes it could be great. And other times if you're away on tour, away on a trip, that's what we're – whatever. Like then we're taking a greater risk than someone who's keeping them separately, right? You're unlikely to have an animal alone by itself in a cage, eat a cage, right?

Then not impossible, right? People have seen that where things will get out and go into another cage and eat it or whatever. They were intended to be kept singly, and then you wind up with one. So there you go. Um, you know, for sure. And I have had, yeah. Yeah. In practice as a keeper, I've had both wonderful and horrendous things happen as a result of my cohabiting animals. Um, in most cases,

the horrendous things could have been prevented by me being a better keeper. Um, and you know, that's, that's the risk you take. Uh, if you could also say that for the opposite, you know, I've, I've kept things singly and I've had her in this things happen, you know, when I keep things by themselves too. So it's, you know, there's no guarantee that keeping them separate is not, is going to prevent any bad thing from happening. I agree what you're saying that that's not necessarily what I was implying either. I meant more specifically at the hands of the other. But, you know, and, and to your point about breeding, Justin, there's no doubt that it is advantageous for the animals to be familiar with each other.

They're not overexcited. They're not blowing their load, if you will, at the wrong time. Sorry. However – Could you be less scientific with your uh terminology no um i don't think i understand what you're saying uh yes uh crap what was i saying um sorry that's okay yeah oh but but no, I was just going to say, you can also, uh, keep solitary and then introduce, and then they eat each other. Like they could still kill each other

if they're only together for 10 minutes, you know? So yeah. Breeding is breeding. Yeah, that's true. I mean, and sometimes you might, you might be able to argue that that would be a more likelihood if they're unfamiliar with each other, introducing them then, Oh, is this a food item? Is this a mate? You know, I'm going to strike first and ask questions later, you know, and I together. And, and it seems like, I mean, you know, they're, they're all kind of clumped together. And I think in, in the wild, we see examples of that. You know, you've got the, um, the timber rattlesnakes where multiple females will go to a decent spot and have all their litters. And one female will watch litters of others. They've kind of shown that scientifically that these females are caring or helping

to whatever they're doing for other litters. You know, maybe that happens in the wild. We don't know a lot about what's in the wild, but if you leave them together too long, all of a sudden you've got one less and a big fat, you know, baby that probably won't survive either. So, you know, it's not the best case scenario.

So you do have to make sure that you're separating them in time as well. And, and who knows, maybe in the wild, they'll eat the weak one and that's their first meal and they go about their business. I don't, who knows if that's the case, cause we don't have a lot of information on dispersion and, and, uh, how, how long these little baby, uh, anteresia or any python kind of stick together with the mom or in the same area as each other. For what it's worth, I see that with across multiple litters of both Calabothrus that I keep the Puerto Ricans and Jamaican boas where when they're, I'll pull them all together and leave them together until they shed and invariably come into an entire pile of all of them together within a given sub.

And that goes for – it'll stay like that for a week, two weeks, something like that. The garter snakes will congregate. They are aggregating together. Yeah, the ackeys would do that for me as well. When I had a big bunch of baby Ackies in the, you know, a big cattle trough, you know, there was no reason for them to do that other than choosing to. So I agree with that as well. And I do think that it is very, very worth doing to observe the behaviors that, like you were mentioning at the beginning. Yeah. I do think the point you raised that really is super important, though, is in terms of planning things out that people would just for your own sanity and potential functionality of the system, you have to be planning it as though everything could go by itself should things go sideways on you.

I do think that's a great point. This isn't a mechanism to save space or have twice as much stuff. Right. The plan should be that, okay, when they're paired together, be it for a day or a year or indefinitely, there should be a separate space where you could pull them apart if you had to. Yeah, like my rhinos. Yeah. And you needed to use it basically right away.

What do you think about different species co-having? Because, I mean, like you said, the woman, the brettles exhibit, I love to see that kind of stuff. It's an amazing exhibit. Yeah. I just needed to shit on it for the persona but it's one of my favorite exhibits um no i i uh i absolutely personally love uh cohabiting between different species that share the same environment you know truly i i am i get a bit of the ick if it's you know like two species that can exist together, but they're from like two different continents.

Just because they can, I don't think we should. But if it's illustrating more of a complete ecosystem, then – right, right. Yeah, I think – so what that reminds me of, right? So Denver Zoo for a long time has had an enclosure that has chondros and emeralds in together that do well. And that's maybe sort of the sweet spot, right, of having – to the point that you're raising of saying, OK, things that wouldn't otherwise go together. This is – they're entirely making the point, right, in terms of you have this – Yes. If they have a plaque explaining that they evolved this way completely separately, then I'm happy with it.

Yeah. But like one one exhibit at the baltimore aquarium was really cool it had a an ackee uh a gurney a hosmer eye a hosmer skink you know a spiny-tailed skink it had a bearded dragon a frilled lizard like you know just one of each or a pair of each or whatever. And they have their little corners of the area. There's an exhibit at the Perth Zoo that has like it's a very large, expensive, expansive enclosure, just like glass walls around it and kind of covering the middle section of their reptile house. And it's got shinglebacks and Western blue tongues and frilled lizards and bearded dragons. And they all kind of can do their thing and get away from each other if they need to, you know? So it's really kind of cool. But I,

I imagine there's still like I was in Alice Springs and they had a, an enclosure kind of similar to that. And they had some shingle back skinks and some, and I hear this horrible noise and I look over and these shingle back skinks are like battling to the death. They're like chomping on each other's tails, you know, like chasing each other around. So I'm like, uh, you might want to separate. He's like, Oh, thank you. And he ran in and grabbed one and took it out, you know, put it in a different enclosure. So, I mean, you know, you still need to pay attention, even if there's plenty of space for them to get away from each

other. Sometimes they'll just harass and pursue, you know, until they kill the other one, you know, if that, if that's their goal and, and they'll do that in the wild too. It's not to say that the wild is something, you know, utopia where everybody's happy and yeah, they, they'll chase each other down and kill each other in the wild too, you know? Like how naturalistic do you really want naturalistic? Yeah. And, and that stress and those kinds of things can sometimes, I mean, there is a level, I think of good stress. I mean, you talk about stress, like, you know, it's only a negative, but I think in some ways for the record. Yeah. Yeah. There's like that drive. I hate who I was. And, uh, but you know, that, uh, there that there is some level of good stress, I think, in some of these cases. And, you know, of course, that requires us to know these animals, know their natural history,

know what they need and what they don't need, you know, so. Right. I mean, the thing, as you guys were describing both the Baltimore and the Perth Zoo, just the skill and intuitiveness that would be required to make an enclosure that could provide the functionality for all those different things really reflects well on the capabilities of the keepers that are making that even possible, right? terms of saying how within this box or within this sphere or whatever, can we make a suitable atmosphere for all these, for this diversity of ecosystems and needs? That's super impressive. It was a big emphasis in the Zoo Science Master mixed species exhibits. I had to, you know, write a bunch of papers on that for herb class, mammology, a bunch of different, uh, you know, types of animals, because it is such a delicate balance and it's a thought exercise, uh, at, at the beginning that you don't, you're never going to know how it goes until it's put into

practice. But, um, you know, there, you can think endlessly about the different variables there and try to create something that won't end in disaster. Yeah. Some, some individuals are just jerks. Like there's a fly river turtle and it would just chase around all the other turtles and just harass them and nip at them. And so they just had to like either make a way for the turtles to get somewhere where it couldn't follow or, you know, or just take it out and put it somewhere else for a while or put it in isolation. You know, that's kind of some some animals are just for whatever reason, just want to see the world burn. The jokers of the feisty felines.

I mean, even the Monterey Bay Aquarium was able to pull off cohabiting a great white shark for a while. They couldn't do it indefinitely, but, you know, that's pretty impressive. I should say cohabiting with tuna and like everything that would fit. I'm not talking about multiple sharks. I'm talking about prey. Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, a lot of times they have those really, I mean, I, again, I love those, uh, multi-species exhibits, you know, where you have like a bunch of different fish and some, you know, turtles and some frogs or snakes or something, you know, that's

pretty cool. Um, good, good stuff. So, and I think that's why cohabiting can be so fun at home is because it definitely makes it more like a zoo in your living room. Um, a piece of nature in your house, you know, I, I get that. That's why I do it. So, yeah. And how about cohabiting a prey species? I've got a mealworm colony that's thriving in my roach colony. So I have two prey species in the same box. It works out great.

You need to keep your crickets singularly in weekly organized pill containers. Speaking of AZA, they have to do welfare checks on their insect colonies. They have to go through and pick up each roach and make sure it's okay. And like, there's different, I mean, they, they kind of take those things to the, to the extreme because the public demands it. And, you know, they're supported by public funds in a lot of cases. So yeah. Yep.

Now we, you know, we should care as much as that about our, our reptiles that we keep, you know, there's no disposable animals. So don't just be like, Oh, just, you know, if I, if this thing eats this, I'll just buy another one. You know, that's not the best attitude to have. Yes. With the illusion of fight broken. Um, are there any species that either of you guys would never cohab? I mean, I think there are, are some, yeah, I mean, definitely there's, there's some reptiles that, that are solitary and that try to kill each other if they necessarily come into contact too often or something like that. I'm trying to think it seems like certain chameleons are like that. The, the Namaquat chameleons are pretty, they'll, they'll cannibalize younger, smaller animals all the time in the wild in captivity too. So, you know, you wouldn't want to keep your Namaquat chameleons together. Unfortunately, we don't have that option here.

Although maybe soon, it seems like they're really taking off in Europe, which is, which is cool. They're such a cool species i've done that a couple times yeah so bad yeah so yeah i think right the natural history it would be those things like that where the natural history reflects that they stay far apart as but they sort of the inverse of that is like the solomon island tree bow is where those things live on obviously a great density of them lives on the handful of small islands that they do, based on the number that have been exported from the Solomon Islands over time. They must live in incredible concentrations, and that's sort of seconded by the behavior I see from the males towards one another and how they interact with females and all this stuff. Clearly, those are an animal that has a social structure that they need to accommodate, right?

The opposite would be like namaqua, where it's these individual road warriors, right, just going about life, trying to jam anything they can in their mouth and not get eaten by the thing one step bigger. Yeah, so the other thing practically is anything that is so big and fast that it's really unmanageable to try and be feeding them together, right? So that if we're talking about false water cobras, that's probably pretty hectic and you got to be on your game. And there are probably times where even someone who's really on their game might fall short and that could have really serious consequences. Rhino rat snakes, you're totally fine.

They're not that fast. It's not that big of a deal. Or species that require such great personal distance or personal range that it's not feasible to do that in the same enclosure. Because they need their space, but you know,

you can't provide it unless you have a warehouse or something, you know. Like crocodile monitors or something. It might be very difficult to cohabit those. Croc monitors. Yeah. I was thinking that too. Yeah, I know, like crocodile monitors or something. It might be very difficult to cohab. Croc monitors. Yeah. I was thinking that too. Yeah. I mean, and I'm sure it's happened to you guys.

If it's happened to me already in my young career, I've had instances where I've got stuff paired up that they would never look at each other as food, but it's nighttime and something moves wrong and they just grab each other because something moved out of the corner of their eye. You know, that's happened to me with brettles like three times. Um, yeah, brettles are some, some of the worst offenders. You usually have to have them on opposite sides of the cage or, or in, you know, separate cages or else they're, yeah, they're very reactive.

And I think too, with, with, you know, py think too with pythons and things that aren't eating on a daily basis, separating to feed is probably not that big of a deal or not that much of a stressor. If you're having to separate them twice a month when you feed them as adults, it's not too big a deal. In the cases I'm referencing though, there wasn't even food involved. It's just yeah nighttime and mine in the room and they yeah and something moves they're grabbing it yeah it's uh it can be obnoxious you're like come on guys knock it off but i but i have noticed that i

rarely see any long-term effects from snakes grabbing each other even though like sometimes you're like prying them apart you're like man they're they're gonna be messed up but i i really haven't seen that um nice it's it's i've never had like a a big wound you know maybe if you had like a couple males that you didn't know were males and you left them together, I mean, carpets can rip each other to shreds in that case. But I think a prey, you know, going for prey, it's, you know, it is, there is a risk, but, you know, I've seen it happen quite a few times and I've never, you know, at least knock on wood, I haven't seen any major issues in my collection from that. I think that's pretty much right. The thing that it reminds me of is that that loxacemus in the Reproductive Husbandry book is just totally destroyed. It was two males, I believe, were kept together. And it's just, talk about a gruesome

photo where we're talking about deep beyond sort of imagination, lacerations and things. I think maybe Dallas or Fort Worth do something like that, where it inadvertently left two males together. Horrific, truly horrific. And some of these things, it seems like, with rhinos at least, their skin is super resilient to everything but the teeth of their own species. So there's a thing most likely to cause them damage, and it looks like he took a razor razor blade to it, you know,

whereas with dry mark on a lot. Yeah. Where they're pretty resilient to say you have like a mouse will grab it. And I've actually seen it where the scale scales will pull away, but not be perforated. There's no wound, but a copulatory bite from their own species can slice them open, you know, the almond-shaped wound, like a sort of a razor blade type cut. It's pretty interesting. But I agree with you, right? You know, the feeding, but exactly, you know, and I do think

you're right to point out, to highlight that, like, a feeding bite is different than a combatant bite or a copulatory bite in terms of what that usually looks like. Totally. Well, I think there were great points, you know, to all sides here. I hope so. I mean,

great talking to you, man. Oh, it's always great talking to you guys. Again, I would just clarify that most of the first half was just not real. I go have a lot. No, we want a strong advocate. Often I feel like I don't I don't stick to the format enough. Right.

I break the fourth wall on this stuff too much. So I love the hit me, Rob. Sorry, we've been we've been accused of being a reptile love club instead. There's no fighting that usually real fighting that goes on. But I mean, I do. I do think there are a lot of good points that were brought up on both sides that, you know, you need to be aware of. And I think that's the purpose of the show is to show it from both sides. We don't have anybody coming in here saying you only have cohabitate or you never cohabitate. You know, it's, it's a mix and that's any topic.

If you, if somebody believes that one topic is completely one sided, then they probably don't understand it, you know, and that's kind of what we're bringing out here. And, you know, yeah, we, we do break the fourth wall. We maybe entice people in, see, ooh, Reptile Fight Club. I want to watch people duking it out. But in reality, you know, there's very few duke fests that go on here. There's been a few. Yeah.

Well, some I've just rolled over and given up because I couldn't gain control. But, you know, that's a different matter. So, yeah. I have one in mind. Yeah. We do like to, uh, to see both sides. We do like to see kind of from, from both perspectives. And I, and I do, you know, I, I'm trying to think that we might've talked about cohabitation on one of the previous shows, but I do think you probably have. Yeah. But these topics are deep enough. And I think, yeah, different perspectives and different insights and experiences.

So I think that's kind of what this is all about. And I think, you know, we find ourselves as keepers discussing the same topics a lot too. And we can learn new things and change our perspective and say, oh, I'm never going to do that again. Or, oh, how did I not think of this? You know? So that's kind of what we're aiming for. And hopefully listeners got, uh, got that from this, the show. And I, I, I thought there was some really cool points brought up and yeah. Thanks for, uh, to both of you for battling it out. Yeah. Thank you both. You need a name for your, uh, alter ego there, Lucas. Oh, right. Lucas Lou or something. Lucas P watch out for that. Lucas Lucas Lou. He's, he's a, he's,

he's a scrapper. He's a rotten bastard. Well, where, where can people find you and see your, the cool things you're up to? Yes. Uh, Centralian exotics is my reptile pseudonym. Uh, you can find me there, uh,

www.centralianexotics.com. Uh, the same name on Instagram and Facebook that's it listen to him Carpets and Coffee every other Monday you guys switched from Friday to Monday

because you guys had a life and wanted to go do things on Friday they keep using that as the excuse I don't know if it was really my life no yes and I don't know. I don't know if it was really my life. No. Um, yes. And we don't stick to the schedule very well, but, uh, it is, uh, it's extracurriculars for a show too. And you can watch it live, get on YouTube, make comments. It's a really fun show. So I enjoy it. I try to get on there when I remember it's on.

I'm always love when we see it in there. Yeah. It's fun to, fun to get on and poke the bear, you know, make fun of Owen or something. Yes. The bear is Owen. And if it's too, if it's too off the wall, they just ignore you. So it's yeah so thank you so much uh for having me and i love this show and i listen to it a lot well we appreciate it we we enjoy it when we can bring people on who listen and and understand what we're going for and and have some you know good good points of view so i'm sure we'll have you back and again i apologize we didn't have you on earlier. That's all right. If any of the listeners were finding themselves just really hating my voice,

like that guy's got a punch-in-the-face voice, challenge me. Let's go. I'll fight you. I'll fight anyone on the internet from safe distance. About reptile topics. About reptile topics. With Justin to hold my hand. Those old stories of like the,

the old reptile shows where different personalities would get together and actually fight, you know, because they hated each other's perspectives or the way they were doing stuff. And yeah, good times. Well, I guess we won't get into those stories on here but maybe for another show all right well any any cool uh you know herpetological things you've seen over the last week or any anything neat that you've seen recently and in regards to herp life i kind of mentioned that, that video and seeing, you know, I just making me itch to get out to her again. I need to get out there.

I guess I have some trips coming up fairly soon. So I'm excited for that. Oh man. Yeah. I, I feel like there has to have been, uh, but, Oh, you know, there were, okay. Yeah. yeah for for the super dorks out there there was a really good um pbs eons video on youtube that talked about uh elapids and uh the like history of how everything else on the planet had to evolve to them having venom. So that was a really good one that I enjoyed as someone that doesn't keep venomous or, you know, do much with that side of things. It was a pretty, pretty fascinating little video. So I'd recommend people go watch that. That is neat. PBS puts out some good programs. I was watching one the other week on whales and they were doing a necropsy on a whale and they were pulling out of the stomach and it's

got chambers. It's like a cow. You know how they have- Well, they used to be hoofstock. Different chambered stomachs. Yeah. They evolved from a common ancestor of- Indeed.

They just moved into the ocean and never left. Exactly. And I told that to some of my colleagues in the agricultural university, you know, and that, that work with livestock and they, they didn't know that cows had chambered stomachs just like their cows and, you know, sheep and stuff. So that was, that was kind of cool to learn something interesting about that. I just love those nature documentaries. That's my favorite. Totally. Me too. Yeah. The, the Eon shorts are always very entertaining and you know, it's everything from natural history to hominid stuff and everything in

between. So it's cool. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Well tell you Aussies out there, keep those hurt videos coming onto YouTube. I can do without the music choices.

Sometimes it's like, I don't know what it is, but it just rubs me the wrong way. Got your muzzin over there. Yeah, it's the muzzin away. I guess I need more rock music or something. Oh my days, he needs some

Taylor Swift. Yeah, apparently that's what everything but electronica sounds like to nipper is Taylor Swift. So, well, I guess the world for a reason, controlling our elections and calling the Super Bowls. You know, it's it's all Taylor Swift. I believe it. Good times.

Good times Alright well Thanks for joining us here And thanks for listening to another Episode of Reptile Fight Club We'll see you again next time