Reptile Fight Club - Blacklisting vs. Forgiveness in the Reptile Community

Episode Date: July 9, 2021

In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the topic of Blacklisting vs. Forgiveness in the Reptile Community.Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland @-IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to the MDR Network. All right, welcome to another episode of Reptile Fight Club. I'm Justin Nylander. I'm Chuck Poland. And you are with us. It's fight night. We had a little bit of a reschedule problem here. We had some pretty bad audio, so we had to reschedule our guests. So we'll have some guests hopefully in

the near future if everything works out but with the holiday weekend it's getting a little tricky to schedule and i'm out of town next week so yeah a lot of a lot of balls in the air trying to get four of us all together so we'll see how it goes but hopefully we'll have that up soon should be a good one but uh yeah so it's you're stuck with me and chuck again so we'll try Should be a good one. But, uh, yeah, so it's, you're stuck with me and Chuck again. So we'll try to get a good show. I know you like to hear us fight. We're like an old married couple by this point. Yes. Yes. So, all right. Well, what you got going, man? What's going on? Uh, yeah, just, um, you know, long weekend, uh, and ready to, uh, get, get out of work for, for a long weekend. I, um, checked in on those, uh, Grandis, the Felsuma Grandis eggs I had and I was, yeah, yeah. So I,

I have, you know, I have one of those, like, uh, like it's kind of the mini it's mini, it's a smaller fridge, you know, it's kind of, I think it's roughly about the same size as yours, but, um, I was kind of went in there and I'm like checking on them and I'm like, Oh wow. Those, those, those eggs are open. Like they're, they're out. I'm like, great, great. Wait, where the hell are they? They're, they're, they're, they're not in the deli. They're not in the deli cup. what what and then i started looking around and i'm like they're they're they're not in the fridge no way they got out what the heck so there is so you know how like on fridges where there's there's kind of a pass through so your freezer actually cools your fridge right so i'm like well okay they're clearly not

down here because i looked all over right and i'm like, well, okay. They're clearly not down here. Cause I looked all over. Right. And I'm like, oh my gosh, did, you know, did this, does the door seal not seal all the way? Did they slide through like, oh man, this is the biggest disaster. I'm the biggest idiot ever. Um, but I, I was like, all right, let me check the freezer. And there they were kind of on the freezer door, just looking at me doing that, that whole like, okay, what are we going to do here? Yeah. So, yeah. So I, I got a, I got a, you know, a big, um, a big deli cup and I kind of scooted them both into it. And, uh, so there's, they're all set up in a cage right now, uh, living their, their best new life. So pretty, were they pretty subdued after catching recently recently so they weren't zipping all over the place yeah they weren't i mean you know one of

them one of them kind of i spooked one of them and he kind of ran over to the you know other side of the the door and and i was kind of like so i just kind of slowly kind of moved him back over there and i just got a lid for a deli cup and kind of just, you know, slowly kind of, and he jumped in the deli cup and you just put the lid on it. Same thing with the other one. So you just kind of got to, you know, go slow and don't freak them out too bad. And, and, uh, you know, it, it worked, it worked out. So, uh, learning new things. Yeah. So exciting.

Did you just have the lid off a little or what was the deal? No, I, well well i kind of was like you know i didn't i didn't want to put the lid on too too tight yeah and i thought you know it's on there it's on there well enough you know that they can't be that strong and i don't know i don't know what i did they found a way yeah yeah reptiles will find a way to escape right yep so um but all good so yeah that's a that's a nice you know kind of a kind of a cool um you know those eggs hatched on the or yeah we're late on the the night of our kind of our first show yeah and uh here here's another show and and they're hatching so kind of a cool

you know kind of a cool thing uh it's kind of exciting been doing this that's pretty yeah so i i uh yeah i i measure our shows now in uh day gecko eggs so we are seven day gecko eggs in you know that's cool i don't think i hear anybody else measuring their time and, you know, day gecko clutches. Well, I mean, Eric does it in moon cycles, but as far as I know, I'm the only one with day gecko cycles. So, you know, I'm starting my own thing. Branching out, dude.

Branching out. Now when we get into like Tuatatara or monitor you know egg cycles then you know we've been around oh yeah yeah yeah well you got to start somewhere and you can't you can't go too too far too fast you know what i mean like you got to build that uh that cycle credit right yeah yeah exactly so few few day gecko egg cycles in we'll be feeling pretty good about this i I guess. I know I will. Hopefully, hopefully you guys out there are listener.

How many do we have now? Two or three, I think. I thought we were up to at least five, but we could be back down to three. I don't know. Well, hopefully those, those two or three guys out there are enjoying it or, or gals. Yeah. We like everybody listening. We need to have some women herpers on here.

Get some of the ladies represented. Absolutely. Absolutely. If you're a female and you'd like to come on and fight, we could have a lady fight on here as well. So not just a dude thing. Yeah. We're definitely yeah anybody yeah we've had a few people like check in and say i want to fight somebody but it's always been guys so

yeah come on ladies let's hear from you i'm sure yeah that's some good fight in you we've got all these uh aggressive male reptile meatheads that want to beat each other exactly we're sick of the meathead thing yeah we need some class in this joint that's right class this place up right how about you dude yeah i got some got some more uh amy a centralian uh knobtail gecko eggs so that was nice i i didn't realize she had laid and so i was just kind of going through the sand like oh'm like, oh, that looks like an egg. I'm like, oh, there's two eggs in there. So one looked a little kind of thin. Well, it looked a little off, but hopefully they'll go the distance. It had veins.

So it looks like they've been in there for a little while. I feel kind of dumb because she shed, but she had some stuck shed because I'm trying, I'm working through my air conditioner. We've had to have the air conditioner on and this thing doesn't shut off when it should. So I had to like put it on a timer and have it kind of come on and off. So that's kind of noxious, but it's drying out the room and I probably need to get a good humidifier in there as well to kind of counteract that, but it pulls humidity from the air. So it's going to just fill up, you know, sorry. I don't know. It's like a bandaid. So I don't know. I need to figure out a better, uh, better. Is it just a therm, do you have like a, is it got a wall thermostat or is it an internal thermostat or? It's like an

external, you know, just plug it in the wall and vent it to the outside. But it's like a, Oh, I got you. It's on wheels. You can move it around. It has a long flexible tube. Yep. I know what you're talking about. We had it for the house, but then we moved in. Our new house has an, has an air conditioner. So my wife's like, oh, you can just use this one out there. Cause the, the room is larger than my old reptile room.

And I had one of those wall units, you know, window units in there in the old room and it did, did all right. But I, it wouldn't, it wouldn't handle the new room. it did all right but i it wouldn't it wouldn't handle the new room so i just yeah and air can oh man i i feel bad for the people up on the northwest coast and you know up in portland and they're there i mean a huge they're cooking yeah they're cooking it's been hot here we had kind of a little uh respite some cloud cover, a little bit of rain the other day. But, yeah, it's been a warm summer. Early, early, early water. I mean, we're in desperate times with water. Yeah.

Southern California is very dry. I have a feeling our fire season is going to be very scary. Yeah, it's, you know, problems, yeah i don't know it's like people building these giant cities out in the middle of the desert you know use up the aquifers pretty quick but i will see what happens and you know we're we're draining more of the um colorado river and i think that's ticking off california so yeah most of the rights to the Colorado. And it is crazy. I mean, you know, yeah. Southern California gets, you know, a vast majority of its water from the Colorado.

And at one point in time, the Colorado used to feed Mexico. Um, so, you know, that ran into the ocean, but it doesn't do that anymore. Exactly. So, you know, as, as the Colorado yields less and less water, water rights are are by by location, you know, so so, you know, as as California loses more and more water from the Colorado, we will lose our water rights. So that's going to be a huge, you know, that's I mean, you know. There's a lot of farming that takes place. Absolutely. We're an agricultural powerhouse. So, you know, certainly not the only one, but a big, you know, a big producer of crops. So, you know. Well, now that we've bummed out our three listeners and we're down to one or zero.

We'll move on to brighter topics yeah the buzz kill yeah we're all gonna die there's drought everywhere um although zion national park is like flooding there's yeah it's like carrying away buildings and stuff so yeah i guess you know climate change isn't just uh hot and cold and cold. It's no water, crazy things like that. So, well, it's, it's a, it is an increase in median average temperature, but you know, a lot of times the, you know, that increased energy in the atmosphere goes into the oceans, which causes more extreme, you know, disaster events. So colder winters, warmer summers, drier, wetter, you know, and you see that manifest. And, you know, I mean, whether you believe in it or not, I mean, it's really hard to argue that, you know,

our hurricane seasons have gotten longer and worse and our fire seasons have gotten longer and worse and our droughts are getting longer and worse and, you know, our flooding is longer and worse so you know i mean i i it's to the point now where i don't i i hope people are kind of saying like geez this is you know maybe i'm maybe i'm willing to make some some changes uh in how i consume and and uh how we produce in this country uh to you know hopefully not get worse where we can't go back you know but but not going worse you know i know my kids would appreciate it oh for sure yeah well let's let's move on to some brighter topics here yeah sorry i kept on bumming p out no there was a pretty good well i put us back on the path with the whole zion flooding thing but, um, it was your fault, wasn't it? We got the Northwest

carpet fest coming up. Uh, yeah. So that's where, where's that again? It's Bothell, Washington, Bothell, Washington. Okay. And it's, uh, Jeff Obst and Kendra Westy. Yeah. They were, they were recently on, um, really a Python's radio. I believe that's correct. Yeah. I believe that's correct. That was a fun episode. So, yeah, that should be. When is that? That's September 18th. Nice.

Yeah. Nice. So, we're coming up here in a couple months. So, they can cook now and party later. Yeah, right. It's warm up there, right? Hopefully. It's pretty hot up there right now.

Hopefully, it'll cool down by September. But, yeah, it should be good. Jeff and Kendra were nice enough to host it. I don't know if I'll be able to make it up there. It's a little bit of a drive. It would be kind of cool, but I'm kind of running short on time off of work. Maybe I could take a long weekend and head up there. I don't know.

We'll have to see if Heidi see. We could go together. Yeah, that'd be cool. I'm sure if I got in this mix, maybe I could throw some of my street cred your way and help that swing. We'll see. Come through and say hello to the girls. Yeah. Pick you up, take you up there. Yeah, it'd be a little out of your way to come out that way. It totally would. Yeah. Pick you up. Yeah.

It'd be a little out of your way to come out that way, but it totally would. Yeah, it totally would. But you know, maybe worth the drive out here. Yeah. All right.

Well, yeah. So if you're up in the Northwest corner of the country, check that out and see if you, if you're into Morelia pythons or just hanging out with a bunch of reptile nerds, it's a good spot to hang out. Have you done any carpet fests? I've gone to the Northwest carpet.

You did, right? Didn't you? Yeah. I went up. Yeah. Let's see. Nick and Ryan Young and Casey Lasek. Lasek was there, right?

Yeah. It's a good crowd up there. You guys got to do some herping? Yeah. Yeah. We did a little herping on the front end and yeah, it was nice. Yeah. That's a good crowd up there. You guys got to do some herping? Yeah, yeah. We did a little herping on the front end, and, yeah, it was nice. Yeah, that's cool. Those are some fun guys to herp with.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So, yeah, I'd like to herp with Casey again. He's awesome. Yeah. I really enjoy herping with Casey. Yeah. Yeah.

Cool. Well, it should be a good event. Anything else going on? No, no, nothing. Nothing noteworthy. I mean, there's always stuff going on. Oh, yeah, yeah. Nothing that our two listeners want to hear about. I did get, I did start my 2021 Antaresia hatchlings, you know, offering food to them. Cool. uh, hatchlings, you know, offering food to them. And man, I'd say about half of them took

on their first try without any, you know, tricks or anything. I just threw a pinky in and I got, you know, probably half of the, and this is pygmies and Western stems and Eastern stems, children's pythons, about half of them ate without any hesitation or trickery. So that's been really a huge deal for me. I was going to say, I have not really bred Antaresia, but I know you well enough to know, and anybody who does breed Antaresia can attest to what a pain in the butt they can be to get started, especially pygmies are tough, right? Oh yeah. like i've still got five or so from last year that have refused to eat i've sold i've sold a couple of you know i i sold a couple to nick and i i need to send him some females and i'm still trying to get you know a couple of them to eat that i know

that i don't want to hold back that's the hard thing yeah i want to all the all the really nice ones they ate first which is usually the opposite so So, you know, I don't know. Well, and that, and that does, I mean, you got to, hey man, strong feeders is a, in, in, you know, nice animals. Those are two things you hold back for. And, and I think. Especially with anteresia. Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, and, and, you know, ultimately that, that works towards the greater good of, of everybody who gets anteresia from you in the future. So, uh, worth, worth doing. Yeah. Well, and it was, I mean, it was almost like a, Whoa, look at all these guys with fat

bellies. So yeah, good things. I guess I just need to figure out how to repeat that every year. I'm not sure. Well, we moved last year and that might've thrown things off and made them think, you know, maybe they were not, not wanting to eat for some reason, but anyway, here we are. I'm happy to report that. So that's good news. That is good news. All right. Well, you ready to fight? Yeah, dude, let's go. Let's go on a fight today. Yeah. We didn't, we didn't get to hear it. It's, it's, uh, it's just you and I, so. Yeah. Let's do this. All right. Well, we've got an interesting topic for you today. We'll see, see what you think about this topic. We're, we're going to talk about, um, black listing versus forgiveness in the reptile community. Um, let's see what, what we can come up with. So,

um, you ready to call the coin toss check? I will do my diligence. Let's see how, let's see what what we can come up with so um you ready to call the coin toss check i will do my diligence let's see how let's see how i can uh you got me last time i did i did i was i don't know what happened but some kind of fluke yeah okay here we go give it a call heads heads tails yeah see yeah maybe the last one was you just being nice and being like oh look you won because you suck no no it was it was legit i i don't mess with the coin toss man no i i know i i i honestly i i believe that it there's a there's there's if just Justin says it's good, it's good. I believe that, man. Your coin toss integrity is impeccable.

I would not question it. All right. Well, I am a pretty firm believer in forgiveness, but for the sake of argument, I'm going to go with the blacklisting side. I'm going to give you the forgiveness side. Yeah. I hate, I hate forgiveness. Yeah.

This one's going to be, is going to be a bloodbath. Yeah. I think it might be. Um, all right. Well, I might have to pull,

I might have to pull a sharp and lay down and show you my belly. Yeah. I give, I give. Sorry, Steve. All right. I might have to pull a sharp and lay down and show you my belly. I give, I give. Sorry, Steve. All right. So I'm going to let you start since you were kind enough to let me start last time. Yeah. So, well, I mean, I think just to walk it out of the stadium, you know, forgiveness is something, uh, that should, should be, uh, in everybody's heart. Uh, and, and, uh, and hopefully everybody finds the, you know, the,

the wherewithal to forgive people's mistakes. Um, obviously, you know, live animals, um, lots can happen. People want to be included in things. They want to try new things. They want to, and not all of that works out well. And sometimes it works out in a public, ugly way and people get upset. And you can find yourself on the wrong side of the lawless reptile opinion. So, you know, I think being able to forgive people who make mistakes is something that, you know, as a community, we actually do pretty well. I think that, you know, we've constantly seen examples of people who've made mistakes and who are still accepted in the hobby. And I think that's fair. You know, I think there's plenty of people who fucked up and they're still around, but they're not still fucking up. So, you know, everyone's entitled to their mistake and they should have the opportunity to be forgiven for that mistake.

All right. Well, you know, like I said, I'm generally a forgiving man, but I think in a lot of these cases, those people that need forgiveness or plead for forgiveness the most are usually the ones who go on to be repeat offenders. And you see that so commonly in the, in the reptile, you know, industry for the, for a lot of things. Now I'd say, you know, uh, a good majority of the people that, uh, work with reptiles are, you know, decent, upstanding people that just like reptiles and want to, you know, make a good name for themselves and, and are conscious about that. And that's, you know, how it should be, but usually, you know, it doesn't, it takes a few bad apples to kind of spoil the bunch sometimes. And, you know, like we talked about a session or two ago, you know,

laws can come as a result of the actions of the few. And so it's it really kind of makes it difficult to say, yeah, let's just let them keep keep screwing us over. You know, yeah. You know, there's been some pretty hefty examples in the past. I mean, if anybody's read Stolen World, you know, you look at or the Lizard King king yeah hank molt like he almost prided himself in just ripping people off and promising these amazing animals and you know we are so excited about these um reptiles and certain species that maybe seem out of reach and just that you know opportunity or or promise of potentially getting a species that's hard to get. We, we do make really stupid decisions sometimes, you know? So, and, and there's people that just capitalize on that and keep, you know, you know, just abusing the system basically. And so I do think there needs to be some form of blacklist and, and I think, you know, new people need to hear that somehow.

Now that's very difficult because it's hard to vet a blacklist, you know, and get on there and say whatever they want. Well, I mean, you remember Fauna, right? I mean, you remember the BOI on Fauna. Exactly. I mean, I'm not even going to lie. Like it was kind of nice to just go on that. And you know, as long as you have an objective mind and you realize that some people are are you know you're not gonna buy something wild caught like you know i i mean there's some people who sell wild caught stuff and people get so upset when the animals come to them and it's kind of like all right look should you know did the picture they show you not line up with the animal? Like, are they using stock pictures? And it's not necessarily what that animal is. And so you

kind of got the idea because you didn't really understand how a lot of people do import stuff. You know, like I get why people get upset about that, but know the game that you're playing too, as part of it. Right. Um, you know, I guess too, like if, if you're, um, if there's a, if there's a repeat offender, there's going to be multiple posts on the sites. Right. And so, um, I, I don't, just as an example, a good friend, uh, he, he got in an animal that had maggots crawling around in the deli cup with the end yeah right it's like uh you know that's just like beyond the pale and he's like what is going on you know yeah musta musta had some eggs hatch while it was in transit he's like no these are not brand new you know hatchling maggots these things have been around for a while and it wasn't like the animal had you know

a wound or somewhere so it probably came from another animal like it pulled it out of a box of dead snakes or something that they're sitting rotten being eaten by i don't know i mean that's a serious seriously bad thing this isn't like a uh you know using a stock photo and then sending it. Yeah, that's way over the top, man. And this guy, I mean, you know, people like that continue to do those things. And then, I mean, I think out of the, you know, the different people that I've heard talk about that individual, you know, they all have similar stories. They've all been ripped off or had half dead animals show up or mites or whatever. I mean, yeah, you got to expect a

little bit from importers, but you know, sometimes it's like, okay, that's, that's, that's enough. All right, folks. Well, I'm going to just chime in here real quick and just say, I'm not arguing for forgiveness for all of you, just some of you tonight. All right. All right. Let's go. All right. We're good. Thank you. All right. Well, what do you got? What do you got on that? Yeah. I mean, well, and I mean, you know, I, I, I had what I had, I had where I was going and I lost it. Hold on. I can keep going. I know you can. I know you can. I need to I need to rebuttal here so that this just the landslide doesn't start. But yeah, I mean, you know, there. So I think it's easy. And, and, you know, you can, you can look at issues where things have happened. clearly you know those people who are um

repeat repeat offenders and it's just their same name and i i feel like i feel like those people you know whether you're talking boi or hell man you can go on facebook and find out who some of these people are with a lot of the reptile forums and stuff that's going on on Facebook these days. So, you know, it's, I think some of these forgive people who've made a mistake, understand that mistake and aren't perfect. And, oh, here's where I was going. So, you know, our hobby, and it's why I love it, right? Because when I got into carpets, man, I met you and I'm like, dude, I know a virologist. And then I found out Carrie was on the forums and I'm like, and I know a freaking rock star who are all into carpets. And that's like, you know, that's a huge like spectral difference, right. Of all the walks of

life that, that are touched by reptiles. And I think that that's one of the most fascinating and amazing things is you have professionals, you have, you know, people who make six figures and drive Lamborghinis in this hobby. And you have people who just have the worst down on their luck, have had hard lives and have issues. And I think ultimately the truth of the matter is everybody has issues. The likelihood that you're going to have some sort of a mental illness throughout the course of your life is extremely fucking high, like almost a hundred percent. Everybody goes through periods where they're depressed. They're, you know, they have issues, things just fall apart in their life, whatever. And not all of it is their fault.

And sometimes when you have live animals and you have, life is unraveling, you are not you know, you are not who you were. And things slip. And is that a good excuse? No. Does that is does the animals suffer for that? Yes. Is that acceptable? No. Everyone should reach out. Everyone should say, hey, man, I'm struggling. I need some help with my animals. I just, I can't fucking do this right now. Right. But we don't live in that society where we reward, you know, mental health honesty. Right. We're kind of like, no, tamp that crap down. Don't tell nobody you don't want to get labeled. It's not cool. And I think, you know, what, where I primarily am going and if it's not obvious by now is that, you know, everybody struggles and everybody comes from, you know, different backgrounds. And so, you know, forgiveness of, of people's struggles is an absolute must in our hobby. Yeah. I mean, you must not watch a lot of YouTube videos because it seems like every pet tuber out there has, you know, their story of how they've struggled and how, you know, things didn't go right. And so I know. So that's my point, right?

Yeah, I do. I do think that, you know, the pendulum is swinging the other way now where I think it's, you know, it's getting to be OK to admit that something's wrong. And I definitely echo you, you know, that's, it's, it's, uh, you know, of course, reach out to somebody, talk to somebody, say, Hey, I'm having a struggle. Can, you know, usually there's somebody close by that is into reptiles as well, that would be happy to come help out, especially, you know, if you, you know, if you've got, uh, some good animals in your collection or whatnot. But yeah, usually somebody can help, a family member or whatever.

But yeah, talk to somebody if you're feeling lonely. And I'm kind of affiliated with my military family. And so the military doesn't necessarily do the best job of taking care of its veterans. And so I've seen a lot of that. A lot of the guys that I know and work with have PTSD and just issues that, you know, the, that the, the veterans affairs is just doesn't do the greatest job with. So I'm, I'm kind of used to seeing more of the, the, so the societal way we deal with mental health, but I think as a whole, you know, through social media, through basically more of a grassroots that, that talking about mental health is is becoming more of a prevalent thing. So I agree with you. I just wanted to be clear there.

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a that's a good point to make, because, yeah, not everybody's in the same situation or in the same, you know, might have differing opinions where you live and, you know, if you live in California, you know, you guys out there lovey-dovey in some places, but in other places, you know, step foot on the wrong property and you're going to do holes through you. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. No, coastal San Diego and East County San Diego are totally different, man. Totally different. Totally different. So, yeah, man. Totally different. Totally different. So yeah, absolutely. So now, um, again, you know, I, when I, uh, was, uh, when we wrote the first carpet, complete carpet Python, Nick and I, and we, we were excited to release it. I, I had a big order going to a guy in, in Australia who was putting on a symposium. And I, you know,

I figured all, you know, just have the book shipped straight to him from where they're printed and, and, and, uh, it would be a shorter journey and cost less. And so I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. So I routed them there. Now, uh, after I had set that up and had the order headed out that way, um, I heard from another good friend or a good friend in Australia who said, don't trust that guy. He just ripped us off. And I'm like, Oh crap. Now you tell me, you know, and so like, I think if there would have been some way that, you know, we could have known that this guy was a crook. I could have avoided a lot of turmoil because so, you know, he, he had all sorts of promises. Oh, the checks in the mail. Oh, did you get the payment? Oh, something must've gone wrong. I'm so sorry. How embarrassing,

you know? And then he gets the books and he's like, oh, I found out I could get a better rate from the publisher. And so you're trying to rip me off. So therefore I'm not paying you. And I'm like, wait, I'm trying to rip you off, but then you're not going to pay me. How does that work? You know? And so, and, and, and he had, he had flown us up to Darwin, you know, as part of the symposium thing, that was kind of part of the deal.

You know, we come and speak and then he puts us on a herp trip and,, and, uh, so I'm up in Darwin and then he doesn't get me a plane ticket back. And so we're all kind of on our own up there to, to get our tickets back. So that was kind of a rough, and I, you know, I didn't have a, this was, you know, pretty, uh, early on in my career. I didn't have a lot of extra money to spend on a $400 plane ticket back down to Sydney. And so it was pretty, pretty rough. And, you know, if there was some kind of blacklist, I may have had a clue that this guy was a crook and not made that deal with him. You know what I mean? Or I would have done it with my eyes open, you know, had like- Australia, what are you doing to my man, Justin here? You got to give him the heads up, man. I'm just messing around. Sorry. Kidding guys. Kidding.

Just my own bad, my own bad timing. But, and, and, you know, and, and that friend over there just went above and beyond. I am going to say her name is Joy Kuligowski. She's fantastic. Just a wonderful woman. But she, she flew me over to Brisbane. She said, I don't want your trip to Australia to end like this. So I extended my trip for, you know, a few days and she flew me out to Brisbane area to Ipswich where she, you know, her and her sons live out there. And they took me around to different collections. They took me out herping. Like they just, they had a big party kind of thing. It was, it was fantastic. And they're still just wonderful friends to this day. I have a real soft spot in my heart for the Kuligowskis. They're just

upstanding people, but you know, that the other fellow, um, just about destroyed my faith in humanity in a lot of ways, you know, you think, well, I'm, I'm kind of trusting and naive to some extent. So that kind of gave me a lesson and, and he ended up kind of being forced into payment. Bob kind of twisted his arm a bit and got him to pay. And he probably did it with like a forged credit card. Cause he got arrested later for having like a credit card machine. I'm proud of you for giving this guy zero credit. All right. I'm just proud of you for that.

No, and he's still out there screwing people up. He's ripping people off to this day. Yeah, definitely. Just a dirt bag. So anyway, you know, like that keeps going, keeps going. And I think the word's out more. So more people are leery of him and know about him. But I think in a lot of ways, like these kind of stories are kind of behind the scenes.

You kind of have to know people who have had these experiences and you have to get started talking about a specific person. And then all of a sudden you hear all this, oh, yeah, that happened to me too. That happened to me too. And you're like, why don't we blacklist this guy? Why are they still able to do this? You know, how can this be a thing? So I don't know. I, you know, and, and I, I talked like we, there was a guy from the, uh, fish and wildlife in Australia that flew out, you know, that he was doing a trip to America anyway, but he made kind of a pit stop up here in Logan to visit with me at work and talk about,

you know, some illegal activities that I'd seen this guy doing. And during the symposium, you know, we went out for a night of herping and I saw him collecting things illegally. And so I told him, you know, what I'd seen and all that information. And I thought, okay, this might help put him away in jail. No, he got out. He, you know, they get a little slap on the wrist because it's just you know wildlife crimes or whatever and you would think australia is so um concerned about their wildlife you know that they would throw the book at him but nope he just got a little slap on the wrist and he's still out there doing his thing and you know scamming people he'd he'd scam his you know

his best friends over there they were his partners in business and he'd like let, you know, his best friends over there. They were his partners in business and he'd like, let them rack up all this debt. And then he'd leave them high and dry saying, oh, I'll pay you back. You know, just take, you know, do this for me and I'll reimburse you. And then he would just leave them with, you know, several tens of thousands of dollars in debt and then just drop them. So. And, you know, I mean, if you go back versus for more for that, that's your own dumb ass fault right like well and they're not going back for it i mean they get they get messed over and they're like well now what and then they have to go do something else or you know and they've learned

their lesson you know i didn't go back and sell more books you know by any means so i hope not yeah and he had people helping him out and i like, do you realize you're helping this guy steal books from me and then sell them for less than market value just to move them quick, you know, make a quick buck? Yeah. They don't care. No. And then his little helper got arrested too. And he was a professional rugby player over in Australia. And he got arrested and lost his job and they were doing other stuff.

He had some drug ring or something going on. I mean, just see, it sounds like there might've been way more going on here. No, I mean, it was a, it was a big organized kind of thing. And he, he had told the authorities that I, the Kuligowski's and myself were involved in some smuggling ring. So they questioned me at the airport. They're like, oh, you know, we heard that you are, I'm like, Oh, I, let me guess who you heard it from. And, you know, and that's because he's trying to throw the scent off his trail. You know, we're,

we're, you can check all my bags. You can check all my, you know, I haven't sent anything from Australia. I mean, check it all. I'm not, I have nothing to hide because I haven't done anything illegal, but you dig into his past, you'll find plenty, you know? So, and the Kuligowski's are, you know, pretty, you know, definitely above board and, and, and beyond reproach in that regard. So I don't know. That's a, yeah, there's just so many examples of those repeat offenders out there that just keep doing it. And it's like, why don't we just, you know, blast this from the rooftops that these guys are dirt bags and shouldn't, shouldn't remain in the hobby. We should kind of just ignore

them until they go away. I mean, do you, do you feel like, do you feel like, I mean, and, and obviously, you know, uh, this individual, you know, you kind of lit him up and, and what did he do? He turned around and made it about you, you know, hold up. Oh, sorry. Oh, I gotta sneeze. Sorry. Woo. I was close. Um, so, you know, I, I kind of feel like, you know, it does. So does a, does a blacklist turn in for it to a tit for tat? And you can kind of see that. And you remember you get old BOI, you could kind of see that where it was like oh you're coming at me well you know you did this or you did that and then and then and then it gets hard

for the consumer who's trying to figure out what in the hell is really going on here where where do i find that you know clear line and and i you, I'm certainly not arguing for not, uh, putting somebody out there who's highly deserving of it, but, um, you know, I, I guess I would just worry about kind of that slippery slope where, you know, once you start slinging mud, uh, where does it stop? You know, where does this, how, how do you, you know, how do you keep, uh, keep it from being a mudslide? Um, so to speak. Yeah. Well, and I, and I would say too, like it requires some, you know, documentation.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, save your conversations. If you've got a questionable, uh, you know, deal with somebody and things are just going weird and you keep getting the wrong things or they're sending poor health animals, document it, take pictures, take videos. So you say, Hey, here's, here's what I saw. Here's what was going on. And then, you know, people can be the judge and say, Oh, I see clearly that this animal that was sent and the message is misrepresented the animal. What conclusion can they lead to? So, well, I mean, I don't know, you know, I, and I see, I see it kind of both ways, right. Cause you know, it, I, I, I certainly am an honest and forthright, uh, with all of my dealings and I would, I expect that from other people.

And, and so, you know, I, I, I, on one hand, I'm kind of like, yeah, you know, if somebody does something that's shady or crappy, like put them out there, like, you know, don't cause, cause there is, there's that tendency to be like, well, this messed up thing happened to me, but I don't want to, I don't want to throw their name out there. I don't want to like, you know, start this. Like, I can't tell you how many times it's like, hey, oh, yeah, you know, this or this happened to me. Like, oh, yeah. Who you know? Oh, yeah.

I don't I don't want. Yeah. It's kind of like, all right. Well, then shut up. Yeah. Don't tell everybody. Yeah. Like, oh, you, you, you, you, you know, you fell for the banana in the tailpipe and you don't want to tell us who put the banana there.

Like, I mean, I, I, I don't get that, you know. But on the other side, it's kind of like, you know, who knows sometimes what's always behind that. You know what I mean? There's expectation. There's, you know, and, you know, when I'm talking about my animals, I try to honestly represent them. And, you know, they I'm talking about my animals, I try to honestly represent them. And, you know, they're clean and they're healthy and they're and not everybody keeps the same way.

You know what I mean? I mean, I would expect and I would hope that everybody has a high, high standard of care for their animals. But not everybody does. Not everybody thinks that way. And so to them, it's kind of normal, or maybe their circle of friends, you know, doesn't clean very often or whatever, whatever it is. And so, you know, when a customer gets something, they're like, Oh, what the heck? I mean, it doesn't have to be maggots, but you can still be dissatisfied. And, and all of a sudden, you know, maybe there's nothing wrong with the animal. You just didn't like the, the way something went down. So, you know, I, I mean, I think that, that, you know,

with that in mind, you kind of have to have a little bit of forgiveness there and say like, okay, Hey, maybe this dealing wasn't perfect. Um, I, I kind of understand, you know, this, if this person will talk to you or whatever, and you know, you're kind of like, all right, I hear what you're saying. The animals with me now, no harm, no foul. I'm maybe not going to do business with you again, but I forget, I get it. I forgive where you're, you know, you're, you know, your, your perceived transgression or whatever. Yeah. You know, I can see that because I, you know, I had a, I had an experience with that the other week, a few weeks ago. Um, I, I had somebody contact me, wanted to buy a couple of snakes, kind of just said, I'll take them. So I, okay. I arranged the shipment, sent them to him.

He gets them and then he has them for, you know, a few hours and he writes back, Hey, there's something wrong with these things. They're, they're swollen up at the neck there. You know, there there's liquid coming out of their mouths there. I'm like, what? You know, these things were just fine when they left one's undersized and it's, and I'm like, well, it was, you know, it was kind of late feeder. These, these are anteresia, you know, that happens. You didn't even really ask for weights or sizes or anything. And he's like, well, it's just not i expect a plus from you like that's fine send them back i'll send you your money i paid for the shipping to get them sent back to me so yeah and i get and i refunded him his money and took a loss on it and it's like and then i get them back and i'm like i don't see anything wrong with these

things they're perfectly fine you know they're crawling around active, whatever. I took them home, put them back in their enclosures, fed them. They ate that same night. I took a video of it. I didn't send it to him because he was like, Oh, whatever, man. You're just, I can't believe you'd send me these crappy animals. I'm like, whatever, you know? I'm like, I just don't see it. Well, I showed the video to a vet and he, he verified it. I'm like, you can't diagnose something over a video. Like he probably, it doesn't sound like, it sounds like he wanted something that didn't, didn't pan out to his expectation and he didn't do, he didn't do his due diligence. So he just said a bunch of crap and, you know, put it, put it in your, on your good name. And you're not gonna, you know, obviously like, Hey man, you're not happy. Like, Whoa, Whoa. Okay. Hold, let's, let's, let's take care of this. Give them, you know, I'll take them back. Like I'll, you know, you made it right. So,

and, and in those cases, and that's what I mean, that's what I'm talking about is like, you did everything right in that deal. Right. And, and, and so the idea that, that the breeder is it's all on the breeder and the customer has no, you know, responsibility and on their end of it, you know, that's that's just not the case. If you don't ask or you're not explicit or, you know, if your presumption is not aligned with the reality, that's not the breeder's fault. Right. So, you know, i mean i i think in that case like okay he can say whatever he wants but you acted correctly and so if he were to go on and disparage you you know hey man whoa like justin is forgiven for this he did everything that he needed to do. Uh, it's not his fault that you were an unhappy customer because of your expectation. Right. So I, I do feel like, and, and, you know, I think what, you know, certainly you're, you're not a, uh, a repeat scammer or anything like that. So,

you know, I think that this, this kind of a situation, it goes much more towards the forgiveness side of things. And, and so, you know, maybe in, in our proverbial, uh, fight club Kumbaya moment, uh, this is where we come full circle to kind of agree that, um, you know, there is definitely a place for forgiveness, but some people should not be forgiven. And how do we do that as a community is, I think, probably an interesting question because you don't want to marginalize people and not everybody's business sense and business ethic is the same and you can still be a, a, a, a fairly ethical business person and not, um, you know, necessarily take animals back and pay for the

shipping and do all this and all that because somebody else didn't do their due diligence to line up their expectation. You know what I mean? So I don't, I wouldn't consider, you know, if you were like, Hey man, you know what? You pay for the shipping back because it was your, it was, it was your, you know, lack of communication and presumption on your end that caused you to be disappointed. Not mine. You said, Hey, I'll take these. No problem. Boom, boom, boom, boom. If you would have said something, I'd have done something, but Hey, you know, at the end of the day. So I just I do feel like kind of, you know, it's, you know, it's kind of tricky. It's kind of hard. And I think those cases, though, like, you know, that that thatchebag that, that, you know, book hooked you. Um, you know, I mean, that's, that's pretty easy. You know what I mean?

And it's like, you know, you would think, but how does he persist? You know what I mean? That's the thing is some of these guys just keep, keep repeat offending and there's no real, except for kind of word of mouth. And that's not the most effective way, especially with some, some people who just want the animal and they're willing to take the chance. And, oh, that hasn't happened to me, but then it happens to them. And then they join kind of the list, but I don't know. Is it just like, should these people even be selling animals?

If they keep sending out bad animals or the wrong animals or sick animals or half dead or maggot ridden animals or whatever, should they be allowed to keep doing this? Do we need to police our hobby a little bit to say, hey, you know, this needs to stop? And there's been enough examples and enough documentation that you're going to be on this list until you clean up your act. You know, if you can go for a few years without any negative reviews or something, then, but then, you know, that has kind of a double-edged sword where if people read all these bad reviews, they're not going to buy animals. So they don't really have a chance to, to redeem themselves. But, you know, if they, if they can kind of really acknowledge that they've done that and then say, look, I understand there's

this information out there and I understand I've done some crappy things in the past. Here's a picture of the animal I will send you. You know, here's what it looks like. They have to take the time to make sure the animal is healthy and clean and they need to take good pictures of it and represent it honestly. And then people can go on there and say, Hey, I had a good experience with this animal. You you know they can kind of redeem themselves that way yeah it just puts the honest onus on them and not on the the you know the people are getting scammed i don't know i i think there needs to be some responsibility and and so that would be one of the few ways that we could really make people think twice before just doing doing people dirty you Yeah. And you do almost wonder where it's, it's very, you know,

the community is very disconnected from, you know, like, like we have animal control, we have, you know, fish and game and, you know, they're, I mean, you know, fish and game is, is, or, you know, they're, they're looking, they're, they're going on these Facebook pages and people who are, you know, selling, you know, native rosy boas. They're knocking on their door. So it's like they're paying attention. So it does feel, and kind of going back toless that it allows, you know, your book hooker to continue to, you know, do his shystiness over and over.

And it reinforces what a joke it is right he he knows what he knows that you know as long as he can find a sucker the game's still this game's still gonna go on you know and and i think that's part of the big problem too um and you know i you know i'm not advocating for street justice right now but you know i mean sometimes it would be nice if if that some of these jerks paid a consequence, you know, I think they they feel like they're untouchable and that they can get away with it. And, you know, I'm a forgiving person to a point. But, hey, come on, man. You know, like sometimes you need your ass beat. Well, that's the one the one of my friends got the opportunity.

He was neighbors with a mafia guy and good you want me to take care of this guy and he had to think about like can i live with that on my conscience he's like no it's okay you know but you know he that that guy could have been uh you know in the in the river whatever the east river is in, in Ipswich. I mean, Justin, the question is how bad do you really want to take, clean the hobby up, man? You know, get in with the mob. Then you, then you just become what you're fighting, right? Desperate times, desperate measures, something like that. I don't know.

I'm not, I'm not advocating for, for, uh, for, for the mafia to come in and police police are are are not so hot and just to be clear the pod father is not involved in that is that is correct the pod father is just a nice little term we give eric yes he doesn't really enjoy that term very much but it's kind of funner to say it because we know he doesn't enjoy it that much. Yeah. But he does do a lot of good work, so he deserves a good title like that. And he doesn't make people end up like Fredo in the end.

Yeah, exactly. He's a good guy. Yeah, for sure. I think kind of a finishing statement, I think if we could police ourselves and have some way to know these repeat offenders and give people the heads up some way to do that, bring back the BOI, whatever it may be, I think it will go a long way to help the hobby. It will help, you know, make sure that there's less animal suffering because it weeds these people out that just treat animals like, you know, a throwaway commodity. And then also it will help our industry to some extent to avoid some of these legislative actions. You know, a lot of people see the reptile hobby is those dirty flesh peddlers, you know, you're just out there breeding and, you know, puppy milling reptiles and selling them. And, you know, it kind of gives us a black eye with a lot of like the zoo or the, the

research community. And if we could kind of clean those things up, that would help, you know, reduce that. Um, I heard somebody talking about the, uh, the parrot, you know, the, the, the parrot bird industry, whatever you want to call that. Um, I heard somebody talking about the, uh, the parrot, you know, the, the, the parrot bird industry, whatever you want to call that. And, and how, you know, they, they're selling birds for tens of thousands of dollars that have been bred in captivity that are immaculate, you know, perfect little animals and they cost a lot of money and they're not sold to breed. You know, people aren't buying pairs of them to breed them or anything. They just buy them for, for pets and, and put a lot of money out for those animals. You know, I think if we take more pride in the animals that we're

working with and consider any, you know, regardless of what it's perceived worth is, that kind of goes back to one of our old discussions as well as monetizing, you know, animal and life. Um, you know, it's, it's kind of a tricky thing, but if we appreciate those things and consider them as, as very valuable and precious things, regardless of what, you know, how cheap they come in, you know, I mean, I'm just going to be honest here and say that I have I have never been scammed in the reptile industry. Now, I probably just totally screwed myself. Every scammer is like, I'm going to get that guy next. But yeah, but but but I also, you know, I stuck to very safe circles. I stuck to very safe circles. I stuck to people I knew. I insulated myself with a circle of people that I could trust. And I would stray outside of that a little bit. And I suppose everything you kind of have to, you know, I mean, if you want something that is kind of hard to find and somebody just shows up with it and it seems too good to be true.

Why wouldn't you question that? Why wouldn't you like why wouldn't you kind of understand that there are like I said, there's all types in this hobby and, and some of them are just the worst, most unscrupulous people. Uh, and, and those are the ones you got to look out for, but there are some of the most fantastic standup people in this hobby. Uh, and you know, um, oftentimes, you know, the, the great animals that we have are coveted because they're not easy to come by. Uh, and they take a lot of effort and work and, and, uh, you know, uh, when it seems too good to be true, you should listen to that. Um, and I, and I kind of feel like, you know, as much as I totally agree with, uh, you know, a big list that we could put the Hank Maltz of the world on.

You know, it also comes back to the consumer and just saying like, Hey, listen, you know, if you're going to be in the hobby, some of this is on you. Some of this is if you're going to, if you're going to buy snakes from Justin, ask the questions. So you're, so you're not, you know, disappointed when it doesn't work out because of your ill communication. And then you want to have somebody else make it right. And I get that there's just people like that in the world that are just like, you know, they, they, they want all the benefit to them and, and, and, you know, the customer is always right. And, you know, all that kind of a thing. And, oh, if, oh, if you want to, if you don't want me to ruin your reputation, you'll do

this because I said so type of stuff. And, you know, that's, and, and to, to be honest, I think most people out there understand that there's, there's P there's consumers who are like that. And so, you know, if you're a victim of one of those people, that doesn't necessarily mean that, you know, oh, there goes your reputation because, you know, or, or some kind of a thing about that. I mean, it sucks because, you know, you'd have to have a website. You couldn't do that on Facebook. People be turning you in left and right. I mean, oh my gosh, could you imagine that? I'm reporting this. My feelings. So, you know, I, I don't know. I, I, you know, that would, that would have to be kind of its own thing. And yeah. And you'd have to have somebody regulate it and it's, you know, I don't know. I, you know, that would that would have to be kind of its own thing. And yeah, and you'd have to have somebody regulate it.

And it's, you know, that takes time and energy. So you have to be funded some way. But and, you know, it's it's a tricky, tricky subject for sure. And I think we've been, you know, punching ourselves in the face. We've been Ed Norton ending it up a little bit more than we've been arguing for our sides and in a lot of cases. And I, and I think there is grounds for, you know, to forgive people and let them have another chance. Like you were saying, people go through stuff and have these different experiences. But I think, you

know, one of the, one of the great, you know, principles in, you know, when you're dealing in the reptile hobby is vote with your dollar. If you think something's up, pull that sale away from them. You know, don't buy. If it looks, like you said, if it looks too good to be true, vote with your dollar and say, nope, I'm not going to support this. It's just a little sketchy. So that's kind of what we need to do. I mean, it's either that or calling the mafia and, you know, that can get ugly. So I think probably the you're, you're right. The,

the, the safe bet is, is, uh, voting with your dollar. Yeah. Well, you know, hopefully this discussion has given you something to chew on, something to think about. Um, it's, it's, you know, it's an important thing to think about and really to go into this with your eyes open. You know, if you're new to the hobby, listening to this, you know, kind of getting in and learning about it. Um, make sure you, you think about the things you're doing. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is. If it's seems like a great deal, it probably isn't you know you know you always see these oh uh these adult animals that could potentially produce thousands of dollars worth of offspring yet they're selling them for less than a price of a hatchling and oh i gotta move these quick or oh i gotta sell and i feel like i feel like there's there's that may happen yeah but but but i also feel like there's there's a set of red flags, right? Yeah. And if you've done this a little bit and you've talked to people and I mean, I've never been scammed, but I've also passed on deals before.

I'm like, yeah, nah, I'm not going to do this. I don't have to buy this right now. I can pass on this purchase and I'm not losing for it. There's nothing quite as expensive as a dead snake, right? No matter how much you pay for it, if it's not going to do well or not going to thrive or even die, then, you know, what are you getting for your, for your dollar? You know? So that's, that's something to keep in mind too. You vote with your dollar. If it looks shady, jump, get out of there. Yeah. So, all right, man.

Well, good discussion. Yeah. Another, another one. As always. Yeah. Appreciate your insights and it's good to, good to talk about these things. And, um, all right. Well, that's another episode of Morelia Fight Club.

Morelia Fight Club. I'm it's a little late. I'm a little bit. It's been a long week. Reptlia Fight Club. Morelia Fight Club. It's a little late. It's been a long week. Reptile Fight Club. Yeah, there you go. I got Morelia Pythons on the brain. I was going to help you out there, but you got through it just fine.

You don't need my help. Take two. Another episode of Reptile Fight Club. There we go. Yep. Thanks again, everybody. Yeah. Thanks for listening.

And as always, check out the Morelia Pythons Network podcast and give them all a listen. Support Eric, the podfather, and his different podcasts. But there's some new ones coming out soon that should be pretty exciting. So keep an eye out for some of the new stuff. I think they've been announcing those, but I'm not going to steal any of thunder but and and we will have a show here soon with some guests on it so you don't have to keep doing the chuck and justin show so got a couple lined up that should be fun so yeah so all two of you yeah stay tuned stay tuned all right see you. See you, man. Yeah, see you, man. Thank you. Outro Music