Reptile Fight Club - Breeding for Localities.

Episode Date: March 18, 2022

This episode, Justin and Chuck debate breeding for localities. Is this a good thing, does it matter? Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Thank you. Welcome to another edition of Reptile Fight Club. Welcome, fighters. How's it going? My name is Justin Julander, and with me is my wonderful co-host Chuck Chuck, say hello Hello What is going on?

Not much, not much Working, working away Working away Oh yeah, you had to work today, huh? I did, I did It's Saturday, man Yep It's craziness

What is the world coming to yep yep not working for me today well it's a little bit yeah yeah i had to uh come home and do some of that as well i i uh i went and got a bunch of bugs so i was like dishing out the bugs this afternoon. Yeah. Right on. Went and saw the Batman. I heard it was good. Oh, it was really good. Yeah.

Not sure if I, I don't know. It's hard to beat the Christian Bale Batman for me. I agree with that. Yeah. He did such a good job. Kind of ruined it for others. But Pattinson did all right. He did better than I was expecting.

Yeah. All right. All right. Yeah, definitely worth seeing. It's a long movie. We sprung for the extra two bucks for the seats that recline and are all cushy and heated. That was a good move for that movie.

It was a good move, huh? Yeah. An extra two bucks. Yeah yeah i'll pay that for a three-hour movie you know i mean i'm surprised as old as you are you can stay awake that long hey man you come herping with me you'll see me stay awake yeah no no no i got you i got you if it yeah, it was pretty, I mean, it kept your attention. So yeah, that's good. Good stuff.

Yeah. I saw Casey Cannon recommended, uh, that he said that Pattinson did better than. Yeah. Yeah. I think I saw, I think I saw that.

He kind of motivated me to go see it. So yeah. Nice. Nice little day date with my wife. So we just, us too. We didn't take any of the kids, but nice. Yeah. So just us two. We didn't take any of the kids. Nice.

Yeah. So it was fun. Yep. And just cleaning poop out in the snake room for me today and cleaning mice and rats. Woo-hoo. That's so glorious. Oh, it's wonderful. I mean, this is what makes us rock stars in the reptile world, dude.

Definitely. Chintz servers. Yeah. yeah it's 90 of the job yep yeah it's the glamour that's what that's that's you know exactly when when when everyone's on instagram showing off all that badass shit remember what they really are is just a poop cleaner yeah behind every great snake is a pile of dung a waiter a waiter and a plumber they clean up the shit and they they serve the food that's all you do yeah well i got a i got a little uh thing in the mail today it arrived today so i i was excited because we're gonna record so i figured i'd open it on air but from uh mr phil wolf the wolf of wheeler eye so the you got a you got a package from the wolf yeah oh show me

sending me something and i'm like why would he be sending me and he said you sending the wolf i don't know if i know that that reference what yeah what you know who winston wolf is right uh oh my god dude you just you just fell a couple pegs in my book that's pulp fiction oh i've seen pulp fiction it's been a while oh man that's like one of the greatest movies of all time the the dialogue in that movie is like it it cannot be beaten yeah yeah oh my gosh yeah Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'll take it. Yeah. Okay. So don't ever do that again.

Don't ever do that around me. I guess I don't know it well enough to quote it. Yeah. No. Yeah. Simpsons I can do pretty well. Yeah. See, I –

Mm-mm. Mm-mm. Mm-mm. Yeah. I guess we all have our faults, Chuck. Yeah. No. Well, this is –

We all have our faults coming. Yeah. No. Well, this is coming. Yeah. Definitely not, not being able to, uh, to, to basically finish my, my dialogue quotes of, of, and that wasn't even a good one, but okay. You know? Well, and you know, Phil told me he was sending this like a week or two ago and he gave me the hint of stay thirsty. And I'm thinking, is he sending like some sweet lady ddp that does not look like sweet lady oh that looks like sweet lady ddp always at your side more of a faithful

friend than your co-host we gotta keep this old man awake apparently correct yeah that's correct unless you're maybe that is it that maybe you're just like extra jack maybe maybe that is the thing that keeps you going and you're just extra jacked on it and when you're yeah when you're her keeps me driving late at night yeah anyway he said stay thirsty i'm sorry i feel like i'm i'm no it's all good it's all good let's do this so i'm trying to think what it could be but i mean it's a you know it's christmas in march yeah so yeah what we got here oh phil you good dude um all right so we got some cardboard says do not bend so we don't want to bend these apparently all right sorry okay note here. If it's naked pictures of Phil, don't, don't, don't show that off.

It's some cool stickers, man. He says, he says a black tail sticker for my black tail buddy. So we found our first black tail together. So what a sweet little thing. Oh, there's some other ones here too it's like uh willard eye and uh oh man he's sent a willard eye and uh looks like either a speck or a um there's one with the three the willard eye and clouber eye and price eye so that's cool some rattlesnake stickers that's awesome man this this last year was a good year for rattlesnake stickers. That's awesome. Man, this last year was a good year for rattlesnakes. So the question is now, where do those go?

Yeah. Well, maybe that's what the stay thirsty meant. Maybe like on a hydro flask because I've got my hydro flask with some pretty cool stickers on it. Was there a comment about your bear hydro flask or something? Was that the? Well, I think I had my hydro flask in Texas does that was that the well i think i had my hydro flask in in texas so maybe that's put see i think this is why yeah see would you throw me off the trail though my brain just went straight to sweet lady ddp but right yeah well we all know what what permeates

uh the the the synaptic membranes of justin there you go justin jay julander what keeps me uh keeps me going anyway that that's really cool phil thank you man what a what a nice thing uh good stuff yeah see these these herping buddies man they're the best right do a herping trip with somebody and just that's a really cool uh black tail too it's pretty fun that's nice yeah i like it i approve very nice good good that's some good stuff thanks that's good stuff all right well anything else going on uh i i was in my crested geckos in my office at work just kind of have them there for fun i I've had them. I got them from Derek Dunlop back in like the mid-2000s.

That's a name I've not heard in a long time. Yeah, he hasn't been breeding and selling lizards for a while now, for a minute. So, yeah, he's a cool guy. He's out still adventuring, though. Like I see all his posts from diving down in Florida. He's gonna be that dude who just permanently travels like yeah yeah i heard some great stories about him too from uh um so uh oh my gosh my my brain does not work well uh the gilpins um andrew and sarah gilpin they were telling some pretty crazy stories about his adventures.

Like his, he was hammocking in Africa and like came running back. Oh, hammocking in Africa. I'm unfamiliar. Please elaborate. He had to, well, you know, sleeping in a hammock in the night. All right. I look, you know what? It sounded like that's what was going on, but I don't know.

Yeah. Yeah. It could be some weird, weird term that I don't know. Maybe it's where you just travel in a Speedo like the banana hammock, you know? I don't know. I just want clarity. I guess. I want clarity. Yeah, I better explain this.

So, yeah, he was going to set up his hammock, right? And he had to kind of walk a ways to find two trees close to each other to string the hammock between them. Makes sense. He's like, hey, I'm going to go out here and find a place to put up my hammock. And they're like, all right, be safe, you know. So he goes out there and then, you know, maybe a half hour later he comes running back. He's like, guys, is it OK if I share the tent with you? And he's he said that he was setting it up and like he hears like elephants coming or something there's like a herd of elephants or any here's like lions or you know some crazy thing like there's lions and elephants very close by you know he's worried

that he might look like a burrito to him in the night or something so ah yeah and he came that makes sense you don't want to be a hammock burrito for an elephant or a lion. Forgive me if I got that wrong, but yeah. Well, that was good anyway. It was very entertaining. They had some good story and they've shared a lot of adventures with Derek and Derek's a good guy. Yeah. Fucking hammocking.

Who knew? Yeah, there you go. Yeah. But yeah, I don't know. I don't know if I've really tried. We bought a bunch of hammocks, but I've never really tried. We were going to make hammock town in our backyard at the old house, but we got it kind of started, but never really finished. We got enough where we could set up three or four hammocks and the kids would go out there and sleep outside at night.

That sounds like hammock mania. Hammock town. Yeah. We didn't get enough for the whole family to hammock out there, but so yeah. That's a lot of hammock mania hammock yeah we didn't get enough for the whole family to hammock out there but so yeah that's a lot of hay i mean you gotta you gotta really think that through seven hammocks yeah there's got to be some postage to like tie them up them up to or you gotta get one of those like like those hammock uh you know the frame things i guess you could do it that way yeah i like i like the

about those and had some hammocks on the frames and they were like the laminated like you've seen like the laminated ones that are like they're like laminated plies but they're like an arch of wood oh yeah i think that's cool looking cool yeah yeah for sure yes i'm a fan of the hammock, but I did not know that hammocking as a travel option was a thing. Like, you know, youth hostel, hammock. I didn't know. I didn't know. A lot of people do that these days. Yeah.

Well, and I mean, I'm aware that camping and people do like camping hammocks, but I didn't know that was hammocking. Like, I didn't know that it hammocking like i didn't know that it was like had become its own thing maybe it's not maybe i don't know what i'm talking about but it sounded like the right thing to say but you sold me i bought it i mean yeah people prefer those to tents and sometimes i mean i feel like in our neighborhood that went up you could whoop that up and just, Oh dude, hammocking. You don't even know what you're missing. You've never heard of hammocking?

It's the best. Yeah. This kid in our neighborhood went out and he's kind of a smaller kid anyway, kind of bite size, but he went out hammocking and, and, uh, Bite size? Like yellow, small, like a small guy. Yeah. Not for Anthony Caponato small small or listen listen to the rest of the story but anyway he's out you know in yellowstone in his hammock and all of a sudden

he hears some something sniffing at him and he thought it was his dad or brother like playing a joke on him so he's like get out of here you know and then he kind of peeks out and there's a full-on bear sniffing him like trying to figure out if it's you know so that's he kind of peeks out and there's a full on bear sniffing him, like trying to figure out, you know, so that's what I mean by bite size. He probably could have been eaten pretty quickly. Gotcha. Gotcha.

That makes more sense. That makes more sense. So you gotta be careful out there. Hammockers. This is a, um, I mean, it's possible they may get mauled by him.

I don't know if they eat them. That's what I'm saying. Like you could be. He probably wouldn't get the chance. Like he'd probably wake up his father. You could definitely get handed your lunch by a bear, but are you lunch? That's what I want to know. There's that bear running rampant in California, right?

The big fat one? Yeah. No, I thought they cleared him. Well, he has accomplices. He was definitely implicated in some break-ins but they found out that it's not just him he's got some helpers so there's a bear gang bear gang yep you got a gang of roving bears in california uh freaking russians are invading ukraine and bears are breaking into houses what in the hell is on? We think we get out of the woods

with out of the frying pan and into the fire, you know, clear of COVID to some extent. And then, yeah. Yeah. Good times. What a fun world, huh? Keeps you on your toes.

It does. It does. All right. Well, enough with the uh the um buffoonery yeah have you heard anything good lately on the podcast world um i don't know that i've listened i've listened to other stuff lately i was listening to this american life this this week instead of reptile podcast so i haven't really listened yeah i i i haven't i um i was listening to so i listened to a carpets and coffee but oh yeah yeah it was one that i had already started so i just finished it up it was the most recent carpets and coffee okay i think

i started that one as well at work but i started the i started the cloud king and i got like like always at work i got pulled away so i haven't i haven't finished that but i'm in the middle of that one um the venom exchange yeah yeah yeah yeah yep yep sorry no shout out bill we chatted a little bit about that last time he's i guess he's got a new one coming out well tomorrow but when is now right so um yeah whenever you're listening to this yeah so uh yeah that should be available by the time you hear this uh his their third installment of the venom exchange radio so should be good um dude from africa so nice cool venomous over there i've been watching that tyrone peen his videos i think i might have mentioned that but i keep watching them. They're freaking awesome. That guy's he's the real deal,

man. I don't, he, he's just got so many cool hurt videos out and South Africa has a lot of cool stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I love those tortoises over there, man. They've got so many cool tortoises in South Africa, just crazy geckos and skinks, you know, it's pretty sweet. Cordelids, they're always fun. Always fun. I've been watching his videos and good times. Any word on the book? Yeah.

So we've, I've been going through, I've gone through all the chapters that I kind of was in charge of writing. Um, not to say that I wrote it all, but like, you know, like, um, I would write the first pass and then Nick would add stuff here and there if needed. And then same with the, you know, the other chapters that he kind of took the lead on, I would add to. And, uh, so I've got all those, I've gone through all of them and except for one and, and put out the corrections for those. And so, yeah, so I've, through all of them except for one and put out the corrections for those. Nice. Yeah.

So I think Russ has most of those corrections already put in. So I think he's got chapters, the intro and chapters one through 10 or so or 12 done. How many chapters are we talking total? I think there's 15 or 16. Oh, we're so close. I know. We're so close i know it's very and he's he's been making the corrections to nicks too nicks been putting in corrections as well so i thought we were closer than we were there's always something else you know i got to look in and i started looking you know i'm going through with a fine-tooth comb now to look and see if there's

any kind of misspellings or word usage issues or misplaced commas, things like that. And, and unfortunately I'm finding quite a few of those things. So, you know, you never want there to be some glaring omission of a misspelled word, you know, so that's, it's, it's a process I tell you, But we're on the one-yard line. We're getting close. The 99-yard line? No! No! I was thinking it's a 100-yard field, but I guess as you go closer to each end,

it's a one-yard line, right? You're about to get a touchback. You know me. I'm not much of a football guy i guess but i'll watch it i watched three games this year so did you more than normal who's your team if you had a team well when i was a kid i liked the rams so that was kind of fun so are you are you stoked like did you did you watch the super bowl oh yeah yeah i watched that one it was it was a fun game.

That was a lot of fun. I don't really care about either of those teams. I look at it like, well, dude, if the Bengals could have been in the Super Bowl, then the fucking Colts could have been in the Super Bowl. So screw this whole thing. But obviously the Colts didn't make it. So you're a Colts fan. A hundred percent.

Yes. No Chargers? Not really. Chargers are, their owner's a douche. The team, like Rivers is a douche. Like the whole thing that happened between, you know, coming into Lucas Oil and starting shit, Phillip Rivers. Like it just left a bad taste in my mouth and then you know i was like in the and you know like i don't know if you've you've never been to a chargers game but no like

people complain about raiders fans i think chargers fans are way where i've seen chargers fans act like some of the biggest ass hats ever really yeah oh for sure and so my whole thing was like ah forget the charters. Not not even though it's you know, I live in San Diego, like I'm not going to do it. And right, right when I was about to just be like, you know what? It's my hometown team now. I live here. Da da da da da.

They move. They ruin it for you. What a bunch of idiots. Ah, I was right the whole time. So, yeah, I just like i gave up you know after that yeah whatever so well we're kind of i mean utah doesn't have a team so we're kind of between denver you know the yeah you gotta you get well which is which is kind of nice because you can you can kind of play that orbital thing you know like be a fair weather fan yeah nobody nobody can

be like how can you how can you not support Nobody, nobody can be like, how can you, how can you not support your hometown team? Like I have no hometown team, you know? Like, so it's, it's, it's kind of nice like that. I think. We got the Utah jazz. So I'm used to heartbreak. They used to follow them pretty closely, but I haven't, I don't know. I don't have a lot of time for sports. I'll watch the highlights on YouTube or something about it. Yeah. It's a lot

easier when you can spend 10 minutes of actual play time you know you can boil down a game into like 10 just give me the cliff notes right yeah i just want to watch the action i want to sit and watch them talk about it you know but you know there's something to watch in a game i think me and my wife are going to get season tickets to the Utah State Aggies. Nice. A kid from our local school signed up to play with them. Do you get discounts? I don't get – I think we get discounts compared to just the – but we still have to pay quite a bit.

Yeah. Even the faculty, but that's all right. It's because some colleges got to be raking, bro. They got to be raking that money. We got to support those poor coaches. The guys that are getting paid over a million dollars to coach a semi-decent football season or whatever. Meanwhile, no player can get any monetary. Oh, God forbid.

Yeah. Well, the university what where their bread is buttered although oh for sure i've i've brought in several million dollars in my research to the university they're not you know paying me like a coach that's kind of lame but what do you don't you don't make it onto tv either yeah yeah i'm one of the low, low guys. And nobody's like, no, nobody's like, ah,

that Julander, he makes me want to go to Utah state. Yeah. All this talk of like, if Fauci making money, it's like, do they even know how scientists live their lives? Like scientists are rich.

Give me a break. Yeah. Oh boy. Anyway. So good times. Well, enough about sports. Enough controversial and other controversial things payments to people we can debate that on the local sports news channel all right we're here to debate reptile topics what do you got for us today what are we going to chat about i was thinking that we would talk about locality okay how do we think about that

what do we think are we thinking about that or locale like breeding for localities if that's a good sure sure is is is breeding localities uh you know okay i like it positive thing or is it a negative thing or something like that? Something like that. What do you think? You like that? Yeah. Let's do it. Let's go for it. Okay. If locality matters or if you breed the species, you breed the species. Who cares what area it comes from.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well. Yeah. All right. Ready to flip a coin? Yeah. Let's do it. luck oh man you changed the angle listen folks he just changed the angle of it look he's got it all right let's go ready ready ready ready okay you see you had that okay ready you can see everything call it it is tails man you're right i have this i have this theory that that you actually are probably a a a master of consistency and that you actually put exactly the same amount of pressure

into every thumb flip that you give and therefore by a consistency of rotation you predominantly throw tails and this strategy has seemed to work well for me i'm waiting so now i now i i have have have have driven the wedge into the wood and now I'm wondering well now I think you're going to vary up your thumb strength so now I have to consider throwing in

the occasional heads you showed your cards yeah I kind of showed you your cards I think I don't know I think this is just your year. I don't think it matters what you call it. You're going to win the coin toss. I don't know, man.

This is the luck of Chuck year. All right. Well, what side do you want? Breeding localities, good? Oh, shit. Breeding localities, meh. Who cares? Don't think too hard.

I'll take the breeding localities are good. Okay. Okay. Sounds good. Yeah. All right. Well, I imagine you're deferring. You know the drill.

Of course you're deferring. Okay. deferring okay well um i guess i'd start out saying that you know some some species you know there's not a lot of variability so you know you you've seen one australian olive python you've seen them all so like who cares what area they come from or there's you know no diversity there's no diversity in what they look like youotypical diversity yeah phenotypical diversity you've seen one you've seen them all and they come from a fairly defined contiguous range there's no offshoots or whatever so does anybody care what locality their olive python is from well listen i think that the west side olive pythons and the east side olive pythons would disagree with you, man.

You know what I'm saying? They're throwing up olive python gang signs, the deal. But so, yeah, maybe that's why I never got my olive pythons to breed and produce eggs because they were from. One was Crippen and the other was. Yeah, the other one was. I do think there are some where, you know, locality probably isn't as important there. Yeah, the other one was alive. You're not breeding a barrens. Oh, that's a different subspecies. So you're not necessarily breeding that. That would, that's maybe a little more strong than a, than a locality. But if there are unique enough areas of just within the distribution. But does that matter where you fall along the taxonomic snootiness?

Well, I mean, it is recognized as a taxonomic distinction. So I would say that's not really a locality thing. That's more of a taxonomic thing. Whether you could agree with that or not is fine. But I mean, it's pretty, pretty, they're pretty unique out there, even though they look pretty similar. There's some distinctness to the Barron's olives versus the normal, normal olives. So that's kind of how. The locality type olive yeah exactly so i got you um you know you've seen one olive you've seen them all that's that's kind of the argument i'd

start with i guess okay what you got what you got well i mean you know i think i think you definitely see, you know, if locality is, or regionality is another way of saying locality, you could say that a lot of times you get kind of a certain phenotypical look out of a locality. And if preserving a phenotypical look is something that you're kind of into, then locality makes a lot of sense. And I think, you know, it's one of those things you got to kind of not separate out carpet pythons, but like carpet pythons make it hard because we can't, you know, like a lot of times locality comes from a pair of locality animals, right? It's not like a group of animals and, and there's no genetic diversity there. So, you know, you're, you're, and, and, and, and I mean, maybe, you know, that's not even the biggest deal either. Like, uh, you can, um, you can still breed stuff that's locality for quite a while before you run into issues. And I think maybe breeding stuff that's like, let's say a Brisbane coastal to like a normal coastal, you still can kind of, I don't know, kind of like, like, like how you retain the word tiger when it's not really a tiger kind of a thing. I know

that's kind of mixing, like we're kind of convoluting stuff by saying, talking about a morph or a, you know, and, and a, and a locale, but you know, obviously like you get the point that I'm saying, like, like you, you, you get the point that i'm saying like like you you you have these things that are tigers because they come from tiger lines but they definitely don't have any traits of a tiger anymore in the same way that you could have a brisbane you know a brisbane background coastal that obviously isn't strictly bred to a Brisbane, but it has Brisbane in its past. You know, and maybe you distinguish them the same way you say a Brisbane line rat, like, like you say, a tiger line rather than a Brisbane versus a tiger. You see what I mean?

Like, you can kind of like differentiate them the same way. It's true. And I think, you know, welcome to my web, Mr. Fly. But anyway, like. Did I just trap myself? I think you gave me a really great point. Yeah, because I think we do, you know, we like to put things in a box. We like to say this is how they look from this area, you know, and, and when writing, you know, the writing, the green tree Python book, that became very clear that just because it's from a certain area doesn't mean it's going to have the exact same phenotype as

others from that area. And you can have like, you know, like a Maruki that doesn't have any white spots down its back. And it looks like something you'd find maybe further north or something so i mean we we do like to put things in a box but a lot of times and and that was abundantly clear with the first edition of the carpet book right like when i was doing research i'm like and these things are variable like you can find something in in you know the cape york peninsula that looks just like a darwin carpet and you know it's almost exactly the same, you know, the Cape York peninsula that looks just like a Darwin carpet. And, you know, it's almost exactly the same, you know, phylogenetically, it probably is the same thing and should be the same thing. So, uh, hint, hint for future second edition, but, um,

those kinds of things, uh, you know, make it difficult. And I think we get it in our heads that, oh yeah, if they're from this area, they look like this, but you know, you could be very wrong. And there is a lot of diversity with certain species, you know, not, you know, not all of pythons, but surely many of them. I mean, I think you can look at rosy boas and you could take like Otay mountain just cause that's like, I live right near the Otay Mountains. And you can see what I've seen in a captive Otay Mountain rosy. And I see similar looks to other locale areas that are local. But you can also see wild pictures of rosies from the from the otai range that look very different from that so i mean even in stuff that has more of a uh almost more of a concentrated phenotype for its range

and and maybe is a little less variable you still see variability i think that's just that's a thing and and but but also you know if you're're talking about coastal carpets and you're talking about Brisbane coastals. Yeah, of course. Not every coastal in the Brisbane area looks like what we see as a Brisbane coastal. Just like a lot of American jungles and Aussie jungles look very different. Right. And there's reasons there's other reasons for that, but you know, not all gelatins are black and white. Right.

The majority aren't black and white, but we've got it conflated. We've got a conflation in our heads of locality equals a specific phenotype. And most of the time we're wrong. And I think, and I think, I don't think it's, I don't think it's, I don't think that's wrong. I think, I think to us, to us, for us, a certain phenotype,

it does mean locality because we're looking at one phenotype from that locality. Right. And, and that is a phenotype in that locale, in that, in that region, that region you know so so that's not wrong to say it's just very incomplete yeah i mean it's just like sure yeah it's it's incomplete to say it's it you know it to to to take that the extra step and say everything in brisbane looks like this no that's wrong that's completely wrong and selectively breeding gets you to a point where it may look nothing like the thing in the wild especially with when you throw morphs in you know all that kind of stuff but like our jungles that's a great example of we wanted a certain look for our jungles and so we bred that and you can find maybe one that's really nice black and yellow in the wild but to the extent that we've you know selectively bred that black and yellow in the wild but to the extent that we've you know selectively bred that black

and yellow probably not you know you're not gonna find one that crazy you might find one close but you know and i think you know it is kind of a problem because you know especially if you're talking about like like aussie stuff uh you know you you can you can take a quote unquote low-cal and you can breed it for a while, but eventually you have to outcross it to something that's, now, hopefully maybe you can get another line of low-cal in maybe,

that's, I mean, that's not outside of the realm of possibility, but it just seems to be unlikely in the timelines that we work when stuff comes in, you know, it comes in and it's kind of like this is a thing and it gets established and it stays a thing until you know it's almost like like we start with this debate of like is it even reasonable to call that it that tiger a tiger

anymore or that brisbane or brisbane anymore right right because we don't we don't have that regular and and and so eventually that locale becomes a line. You know, it has to become a line. And and that makes sense to me. that uh a locale is more of a phenotype of a of an area than in the same way that that it's more of a line in captivity than uh a carte blanche phenotype for that area did that make any sense yeah that was very convoluted sorry it was like it was wordy. I feel like he keeps setting me up too, because like, you know, like you said, if you, if you focus on a locality, especially for things like, you know, Australian stuff where you have kind of a limited number of animals that, that are brought over or whatever, or that made it here originally before they were illegal, those kinds of things. You're, you're looking at probably relatively few animals, especially for a certain locality. So if you're sticking with the locality, you're inbreeding quite a bit and down the road that could lead to potential problems. And I think we've seen that with a few, probably no boa examples or something. I'm trying to think of like, you know, once, and you know, that, that can lead

you down a bad path as well. If you're in breeding over several generations, start finding missing scales or, you know, missing eyes or things like that. So, um, that can be problematic to focus too, too much on, on, uh, locality, um, where you don't really have the opportunity to outcross without mixing in a different locality. So, you know, that's, that's tricky to, to maintain those locality lines without running into that problem. Well, sure. Well, it's tricky. It's tricky for us. It's not tricky for Australians, but yeah, it's, it's a matter of geography, right? Like, I mean, our argument to them is stupid, right? But also for us, I mean, you might have like, for example, the, you know, stuff that's illegally collected within the U.S. You know, you might get it into the pet trade and it might stay there.

And, you know, you might have the feds have an issue with certain projects. I remember they, they got those, uh, leucistic hog nose and we're trying to confiscate those project animals and people had spent a lot of money and the guy got caught, you know, selling things illegally. So they, they confiscated those animals that people had paid large sums of money for. But I mean, I, you know, if there's something that's illegal to collect in the wild or, you know, protected within within its range but there's some in the pet trade you don't have it's it's very difficult to get new blood pumped into those projects potentially i mean they can do it illegally but then you run into those legal issues yeah right well how i mean how but you know the the inbreeding becomes a problem when you focus on locality.

Because how easy is it to go out and find, you know, you get people that go really, really specific on localities. So you say, oh, you know, Juneau Road, this, you know, it has to come from this road. And they give the mile marker where it was from so they can show, oh, it's a specific locality. That's like, if you're doing that, I don't even think that's locality as much as that is just like, hey, that's Mary and your cousin right there. Like, you know what I mean? Like, that's a family member at that point. You know, like that that's stupid that's stupid you know that that that kind of that becomes uh some fixation for some groups of reptile breeders you know where they they want

that specific locality and again you know maybe with the phenotype and it may have a fairly consistent phenotype but you know phenotypes can vary pretty widely within a given area to some and i mean you know i i mean i i think i think you could say that locality down to a road or something gives you you know more information but i mean but but again like i mean i i you mean, I, I, you know, I think of like mangrove monitors, like there are a lot of different kind of phenotypes for mangrove monitors that I've seen. And they're one, and I'm not very good at all the phenotypes, but it's like, you know, you, you, that, that, that's a locality type of thing. And because those get imported,

they're out there, you know what I mean? So as long as it, like I said, it depends on where you're, you know, where you're talking about, uh, uh, things coming from and, and what the, you know, the minutia of it matters, uh, you know, uh, locality, uh, Rosie bow is in California. Well, kind of tough to talk about in captivity since, you know, the laws are around, you know, reproducing those and keeping those is, you know, is tough. Within California. Yeah, within California. Now, yeah, outside of California, like, you know. That seems the craziest thing to me.

It's stupid. It's absolutely stupid. But, you know, I think obviously they're trying to protect from people collecting wild animals and selling them as captive bred you know that kind of well yeah but well and i i get i get that yeah i get that but how do you think those animals that like get reproduced outside of california can't like like do you know what i'm saying like it doesn't make like no i mean i can come to your state, get a fishing license and bring them home and breed them and sell them all day long.

But you can't, you know, it's kind of funny. Exactly. It's just same with, you know, Utah Gila monsters. We can't bump them or collect them, but you know, Colorado next door has them and they breed them. And you know, I guess maybe I wonder if the, if some of that is uh i.e i start collecting you know locality whatever that's out here and i'm crazy so i start reproducing these things and then i start releasing them in some other area and so basically i'm then i'm taking you know um uh you know, genetic. Oh, my God. Help. Help. Save me. Yes. Sure. Yeah. Like like

genetic. Yeah. You're putting things outside of their areas. I heard that was the case in in Cannes area. There's a road where they would go and release all the confiscated jungles even if they didn't come from that area so you've got a an area with amalgamation of exactly that has several different localities that are just dumped there if they you know catch them and have to release them so kind of a strange strange thing i you know that may be just some urban legend as well herp legend but um but i you know i can see yeah that could be a problem and maybe that's another point for me you know it's bad to try to breed locality because if somebody dumps them in a different locality then what where what is the locality you know you kind of mess up

the locality if you do that kind of thing well i mean actually a locality is i mean what if that's where you are then that's where you are bro yeah unless somebody brought a bunch of stuff from yeah i i guess we kind of okay so so i was born in indiana but now that i'm in california aren't i a california locality human i am indiana locality just way out of place you see humans have localities we can choose where we live and move and adapt and live in a house so well nothing's stopping animals just because they are not smart enough to make cars that's not my fault that's true that we still call them burmese pythons even though there's no burma and they live in florida see not there we call florida pythons? Right. Not their fault. Because their locality is Myanmar.

Okay. Yeah, but we don't call them Myanmar pythons anymore. I think another really impediment to locality breeding and keeping is the whole morph thing once you start you know trying to strive for morphs or selectively bred individuals your locality kind of has a little morphs come from what where did morphs come from yeah but who who tracks the locality of a morph that's what i want to know do you have you ever seen like this morph is from this region and so you only like what ball python you know oh the lesser came from here so we need to breed it only from other other ball pythons from that's that country you

know that doesn't happen far be it for me to say that you're conflating two things that didn't have anything to do with each other until you made them have something to do with each other that's how that's how a debate is won, my friend. Not this debate. I mean, if you're talking about... If you find some weird mutation, you're going to breed it to anything with the cloaca. You're going to destroy any locality garbage. No, I just, I think that you're, I think, I get what you what you're, I get the, the, the, the, the way you're trying to steer this, but put it, let's, let's pull this, let's pull this big rig back on the

road, buddy. Um, yeah. So nobody gives a shit about localities for morphs because it's a morph. That's, that's like that. So the locality is the regional variant. The morph is the morph, right? Yeah, but when you get a morph into a group, then you start breeding it to anything. Say it's an Irian Jaya. It's a morph of the New Guinea carpet python. And all of a sudden, you're breeding it to coastals and jungles and inlands tolands to get that trait that granite or whatever and then you've all of a sudden got this mismatch mishmash of all sorts of subspecies localities

whatever that all goes away in pursuit of the morph that's kind of my point is like more what does that have to do with locality because they use what would be a locality what they could keep a pure locality and move it into, you know, just the random female. It doesn't matter what the locality is anymore. So the locality goes away. So, you know, it just messes up localities. So what's the point of keeping localities? He's just going to buy it and say it's a jungle.

So I'm going to breed it to this other morph. You're just making morphs. You're just making some random conglomeration. Well well if you're a locality keeper you might but if you're a locality keeper gene pool there is no pure localities anymore there's no like finding a function but that's a function of too many morphs and not enough localities not not a function of anything to do with locality. I mean, that's it. We're talking about the locality game in general, as far as I can tell from what the topic is. This could mess up localities, right?

That's all I'm saying. So if you care about locality. But taking localities and breeding them to, you know, you could argue that taking localities and breeding them to whatever could mess up localities. Yeah, that's the point. I mean, okay, I get your point. You get more focused. You don't have localities anymore. You threw the hot button bad word morph in there so that everyone will be like, he's right. That's right.

Well, no. I mean, show me a pure retic locality like there are very very few mainland retic localities and now we can't import them we can't you know but that's because people they've been lost to the hobby because because people wanted morphs so they bred their morphs to any locality but that's because nobody's importing retakes anymore yeah and everybody thought we would be able to forever but and so we went so is it so is it the morph so so morph is a contributing factor but the real problem is importation well i mean importation gives you access to different localities right if you can't and if you can't import them you can't get access to localities so what do you do you're like fuck it we'll start

breeding morphs there's a there's another point for me stopping the importation ruins makes localities who cares you know because then you just breed it to whatever it's not another point for you that's ridiculous ridiculous. You know what? You might as well work in a construction crew and drive a freaking steamroller. What the hell? Hey, that's how this came about. Maybe you'd be a crane operator. You could wrecking ball your way through buildings.

I would like to welcome you to Reptile Fight Club, Jack. This is Reptileile bullshit club right now you're just you're just you're rickshotting your way through this no man i i don't i i one i don't just i don't agree with you i disagree with you vehemently about this because importation is the issue morse or okay take morphs put them off to the side. People like morphs, good for people with morphs, right? Good. Let them, leave them alone.

All right, leave them alone, Justin. Let them do their thing, okay? All right. So now that we have morph people over there doing their thing, let's talk about importation. Because if we can be importing things, then locality becomes just fine. We have no issue.

Yeah. Yeah. Right? Can you bow down, steamroller man? Well, no. I mean, we don't import Australian stuff, but we still have localities. Right. It's because a few people cared about them.

Right. But going back to the beginning of the conversation, they become bottlenecked and you have to outcross them because it's not viable long term. So if you have any species that you can import and you bring in locality, you can keep that going. That's if you trust what the importers are saying, because a lot of importers on either end can just say, Oh, it's from here because that's the popular locality. Right. And, and that kind of, you know, that's of course the green tree Python community has always railed on that topic and said, you know, there is no true locality because you're taking the word of, of an importer and they're out to make money. So they're going to say whatever they want or call it, whatever's popular. So, you know, that's an issue with importation

and keeping localities pure. I mean, but let's be really frank about what we do. We take animals out of the wild and we put them in boxes and we breed them and we slap names on them. And even the names that scientists give them are just fucking made up based on last last week's uh arbitrary arbitrary qualities we put around them i mean we've gotten pretty good now we're starting to use genetic

material but even that is like not standardized at what what point is you know what percentage is this different from that does it make it a thing like so yeah at some level it's all fucking arbitrary right and and going back you you did say like oh you know in locality green tree pythons you get variation yes you do. But you also have certain phenotypical things that are consistent for for certain localities or certain, you know, generally established localities of green tree pythons. Right. Can we agree about that? I think so. OK, well, I mean, here he goes. On your bullshit again. Oh, man. You can't just characterize everything I say that way and have it be true.

Watch me. Well, listeners, you guys can decide. Yeah. Hey, listen, I'm just here sticking up for myself. All right. They don't have to deal with you. I do. You seem really upset.

I'm not upset. This isn't personal. I'm having fun't i'm having fun so um you know if you're if you're i would say that you know you say locality all that's the genetics and stuff that can all be made up and stuff but the locality you know somebody can say it's the wrong locality but if you if you go out and collect something from a certain locality, that's about as specific as you can get. Right. Right.

So the genetics may change, and that's probably – But I guess the other thing I would say, too, is like – You're a bit taxonomic. Huh? Sorry. I'm making a point for you. The taxonomy may change. And if you, if you've bred things across the range that all of a sudden become two

different species, then that speaks for keeping localities, you know, separate from, from other localities. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But I mean, if, but if you're, what you're saying is like, it doesn't matter. We're just sticking them in an arbitrary box. And none of this really is is real. No, I mean, at some level, that's true. So don't what the point I'm trying to make is don't take it that seriously that it's like, well, if you don't have the GPS coordinates, then you can't possibly say that this isn't that this is this locale well come on man oh yeah i mean obviously do you doubt that those brisbane coastals didn't come from from the the brisbane area of australia like why would somebody lie about that like why like why like like just call them whatever. Like the Port Douglas.

Like, you know, like what? Why would a reptile breeder lie about something? Because they're so honest all the time, right? I get that. And so there's minutiae in there as well. And yes, I, but again, you know, if it's a locality and it looks cool, there's not that much of a reason to misrepresent why. Like it just is where it is. And people will be like, oh, that's cool looking.

I like that. Right. Nobody's going to be like, oh, it's a, you know whatever i like you know what i mean that it's the name the name becomes synonymous with what you like about the the locale right that's right so like a 88 diamond is is fine right that's as long as it looks like a diamond who cares if it's truly a diamond from a specific diamond nobody's nobody's saying that it can kind of be a coastal carpet pie i don't know you said if it looks like it's from brisbane if it has that phenotype then that's good right is that what you're saying well i mean no what i'm

did i hit a nerve check no you didn't hit a nerve man you're just she's just being that guy right now you're just being that guy it makes it a lot worse when you can see me too right i rattle you i get in your head man i get in your head yeah all right no idea what's in there tell me tell me how it's okay yeah well look so what the point i'm trying to make and i feel like you're misrepresenting me right now okay all right make your point so if it if if if a coastal carpet comes from the bris, then it is indeed a Brisbane coastal, whatever that phenotype looks like, right?

Okay. Right? Yeah. Right? And we've already established that phenotypes are variable. So not every Brisbane coastal is going to look the same. Yeah. But through what we would trust is forthrightness because it wouldn't make any sense to me, at least, to collect something from one area that has a cool look or is, you know, and then set and then bring it over as something totally different.

Like, oh, that's abane when it's really not even from that area like why now i could understand if if you're like an indonesian importer where things come to you from from lots of different places and you have no idea who is collecting these things or or it's, or, or it's a thing where, you know, people are just bringing something to a location or they bring something to you. And so there could be some, some, you know, a question as to where it was collected from, but even still, do you think those people who are going out and collecting are, are,

are traveling those animals hundreds and hundreds of miles to different areas? Yeah, fair point. Yeah. I mean, and so the person who's – so it's possible that you have an importer who's like, ah, that doesn't sound as cool as if I just say it came from this area and no one will ever know. Like, sure, that's out there, but I don't, I don't, you know, like I don't have any reason to think that that happens on a, some type of a mass scale. You know what I mean? I think it's easy to doubt it because of the shiftiness that, you know,

exists in the reptile world, but that doesn't necessarily mean that that's the case. Right. And all these people who are self-doubters are they out there are they in those these islands or any of these places looking at these animals do they have any idea you know like some some do yeah well okay yeah and i think that's i mean obviously if you can classify the different green tree pythons as different species or subspecies then there's something you know some kind of characteristic or or phenotype or or morphology that you can

differentiate them so you can tell an azuria from a viridis right and that's there's some clear there's like some very clear differences there you know like that that are that nobody's arguing about yeah yeah exactly. So you can, I think some of their stuff is like, well, I mean, they're, they're all viridus and if they came from the Maruki region, then they're probably pretty close by. Yeah. Your, your point is, is a fair one. Um, I, I guess I would also kind of say once you pull it out of the wild, is it really a locality i mean you you stop you stop that evolutionary trajectory of that locality and you start choosing who it's bred to you start

choosing what babies you hold back and and keep that line going and so you kind of destroy the the locality and even like a species or whatever you know know, that kind of idea. That's something Ben Morrill turned me on to back in the day that I just thought was a hilarious, hilarious argument. It's like and it remember that on the boards back. Yeah, for sure. No, no, no. I think that's a valid thing. I think that the intellectual argument for that is a valid thing. Right.

And his thing was, you know, we're just messing with snakes in boxes. Once you pull it out of the wild, it's not that locality anymore. It's not that. I mean, I kind of alluded to that earlier. You know what I mean? Exactly. So I absolutely agree with that. But at the same time, you know, do those we keep we'll just keep going back to Brisbane

Coastals because they're out of the wild. Does that mean that they didn't come from the Brisbane area? Is that not an accurate way to describe them? Does that not give you the descriptive information that you need to make some kind of an understandive point about where those animals occur? Well, let me ask you this. Would you breed a, a red tiger to a Brisbane, a red tiger coastal to a Brisbane coast?

I would. Cause I'm fucking crazy. If you wanted to keep a locality, I mean, look, cause sometimes the names are confusing, right? A red tigers purportedly came from the Yakupori Depot, which is within the area of Brisbane.

Where is Yakupori Depot, by the way? I heard Eric's, because I look for it. I don't even know how to spell it. So part of the problem. But Eric, in a recent, I think it was, was it the Carpets and Coffee or something? He said that Yakupori Depot was in the Brisbane area. So they're another line of Brisbane's potentially. How interesting.

Yeah. Right. So, you know, giving something a fun, a fun little name, you know, like red tiger coastal can, can conflate things and make you think, oh, I can't breed this red tiger coastal to a Brisbane. That would be messing up the localities when maybe they're the same locality to some extent, or region at least. Okay, so let's play it both ways. So if Yacopori Depot is in the region of Brisbane, then it's still reasonable to call any offspring from that pairing a Brisbane line coastal, right? Yeah. If you're not trying to be specific about it, if you're not trying to go the gray band route, you know, and say, no, I only want stuff

from Yakupori Depot bred to other Yakupori Depot stuff. Or, you know, are you going to widen your band to say anything in the general Brisbane area? If I find something in Ipswich, you know, if I have an Ipswich locality, it it's several miles outside of brisbane but it's pretty close geographically and there's there's they really didn't like that point but you know there's there's probably potentially gene flow between um you know those populations that are in towns that are fairly close to each other so you know you can you could potentially say that I have a locality that covers this geographic area, you know, and that, that's very ill defined in most of these things. So it's, it's almost like, what's the point?

You know, it could, you could be led to that conclusion, say, well, as long as it's the same species or subspecies, know you can breed it well and and again these are artificial lines that we're drawing in in you know my circle this big well my circle yeah exactly exactly but but again i mean i think it's valid i think you know uh i mean if if subspecies is valid, then locality should be valid. Right? I mean, I think they're kind of the same concept of regionality at scales, different scales, right? Well, with our, our changing environment, localities may, may disappear. You know, you might have regional extinction of a species. And so,

so you might have something in captivity that doesn't have its wild counterpart still left in the wild. You know, maybe there's a shopping mall, you know, where, where you collected those animals and they're not there anymore. And that's, that's happens a lot throughout the world, you know, was places get developed. Things can go out, uh, you know, be locally extinct or even not found in the, in the state anymore, things like that. So, you know, it's, it's a, it's a slippery slope to some extent. So, but then if, if the locality in the wild is gone and you can't get any more genes from that

area, does it matter if you have it in captivity i guess that goes back to that invisible art concept and the debate we had around that so yeah you may not need to rehash that but you know it's something to think about i guess yeah and i mean i i you know i i absolutely think that you know that that starts to go into Ben's whole thing about once it's out of the wild, does it even matter at that point? It's all for us anyway. Right. So it's like, so it's like, yeah, you know what? I got this locality, but there's a shopping mall there now, but I was able to get, uh, the locality that's adjacent to it. So I'm calling it this other thing. That's like, you know, maybe a bigger area or a it this other thing that's like you know maybe a bigger

area or a different area that's like you know what i mean like you can so to me and it's it's so the minutiae of the language is is important right like like just like like a tiger something that comes from a tiger line uh that, that, that isn't a tiger, you know, not calling it saying it's, you know, not saying tiger saying tiger line. So like, like you, like, so somebody who's not, you know, doesn't understand that they need the story behind why that is the way it is. And I feel like a lot of this stuff, especially when you're talking about like, like stuff, that's – that has importation barriers has to have a story behind it, right? And so we tell this story.

And at some level, it's interesting to us because, hey, if the story is represented and preserved well, it's an interesting piece of the story of where those animals came from and how they came to be. But does it matter because they're not in the wild and unless you're there doing it or now it's a shopping mall like who cares right but i think there is you know i think there's some and and i think to me that's part of where the locality has some some some some reasonableness to it where you know eric talks about the yakupori depot and and there's a story behind that where that is and you know like like like if you were so into that maybe you know how that that locale came to be right yeah and that took some digging i believe like i don't think that was i mean they call them red red tigers which doesn't give you any information

on their locality. But when you dig down, I think that's how they figured that out. And then they found out it's in the Brisbane region, I think. Again, Eric, you need to show me where that is next time I see air or whatever in a PM or something. I couldn't find it on the map. Map coordinates or it didn't happen. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, this is a treat.

I don't know if I have any more points because, frankly, I'm on the keep it locality kind of attitude. It's hard to argue against keeping localities. And I like to keep them. It kind of has to make sense at some level, though. You know what i mean i i i get like there there's definitely uh there's definitely an argument that that like at some point locality is stupid but i i i you know i think you brought that with the with some of the jungle carpet localities that were coming in from europe you know we had like the palmerstons's and all these different localities. You don't see those too often anymore. And I think

it's because some were ugly, like, like they look like wild types. So people were like, eh, who cares? You know, I want a bright yellow and black jungle. So I don't really care where it comes from. I want to see a pretty snake in a box. Right. And I think that's, you know, to a large extent, even when we do have localities we try to shift you know steer them a certain way so they look better they look brighter they look nicer so people will want to buy them you know and and i think that's kind of where you where you run it run across the line where it's like well who cares if you have a locality if you're just trying to make a nice looking snake just breed it to another nice looking snake and then you're, you're okay. And so, I mean, I think that's probably

where I fall. I certainly like locality look like, I mean, what did you pick the locality is good side then? I'm just kidding. No, because, because I keep winning these coin tosses and I want to make it a challenge for myself. So I take the losing side. All right. Well, I don't know. I thought that was the winning side. I was like, oh, man, how am I going to do this side? It's hard to argue against the way I feel, you know, my heart of hearts.

Well, but I mean, I just I don't I mean, I think I mean, look, all of why I feel the way i feel comes out of people like you know shit talking sibs and like yeah you know hybrids are bad and it's like no man come on like yeah none of this is bad or good necessarily exactly we're not repopulating the wild so right and there's some badass looking snakes that come out of some of that stuff exactly and you don't necessarily really ugly looking snakes for sure you're like oh what the hell sure absolutely people grab onto that stuff that produces nice looking animals and they run with it and so again does it cease to be that locality because you're you know forcing in a certain direction uh it could that argument could be made right i mean it's more of an academic

argument because one could argue like get you know that uh it it any any of the jag hybrids like gamma you know like yeah nobody's gonna argue that right but you could find a trash ass looking yeah representation of that and people like like, trash, completely worthless. But they're not showing it off. Wait a minute, man. The only difference is how it looks. If it looked badass, nobody cared about where Andrew Hare's jungles came from

and the questioning of the purity of that image. They're like, those things are hot. I want that. And even to this day, people are like, the black, those things are hot. I want that. I want them. Even to this day, people are like, Oh, I, the black and yellow.

And I agree with you that people were like the, the, the people were like, Oh, Palmerston, a locality of jungle. That's cool. And that shit wore off real quick when they didn't turn bright yellow and

black in a couple of generations. And people were like, yeah, fuck this. I'm not, I don't care. You know what I mean? Because yeah, I can't sell the babies. So therefore the project is worthless. And, and you know, I think money and that attitude destroys a lot of more, and maybe that's just particular to the jungle or to the, to the carpet python breeders out there and you know we're coming from that that that's our background so of course we're going to talk about that but and it probably is less important with things like tortoises i don't know maybe they they do like you know try to select for different sharper looking tortoises but maybe just having the

species is all that matters or having the locality is all that matters. And so, yeah, it's hard to say. I think it's very species specific and situationally specific. And since carpets are kind of what I know best, that's where I stick. I think that's probably why I use carpets as the example. And I think a lot of people who listen, you know, maybe a lot of people who listen to know hoping well maybe that a lot of people who listen to us also listen to npr and our carpet head so it makes sense to to talk like that but yeah you're right i mean there's you know there's endless you know other species and

and situations where you know um localities make way more sense than in carpets, but I, but I think, you know, carpets are a good example, like talking about, talking about locality and carpets is a good, like it's kind of the, like, oh, there's some, there's some problems here to discuss, you know? And so hashing it out in relation to carpets is maybe a good way to talk about it. Yeah. Cause you know, back in the, back in the day, the, the coastals ranged from, you know, South of Brisbane clear up to the, the tip of the Cape York peninsula, you know? And so you could breed a, a, you know, tip of the Cape York peninsula animal with a Brisbane and say, I've got a coastal and you know, that, that probably isn't true anymore. And, and yeah, exactly. And what does. And, you know, that probably isn't true anymore. Yeah, exactly.

And what does that mean? When things change. What does that mean? When taxonomy changes. Right. And that's the whole point, is if taxonomy changed or what we understood about the taxonomic distribution changed, what does that mean for our animals now?

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. changed what does that mean for our animals now oh yeah oh but oh my god but if you're if you're archer river crossed with a brisbane coastal glows in the dark nobody's gonna give a crap they're gonna breathe all day long they're like that's the hottest shit ever like i love that yeah and you know most most of those crosses i guess to for good or bad usually turn out worse than both the localities but some look pretty crazy I I guess I think the Rockhampton Coastals like I never I never thought those I just they didn't do it for me like they're they're they're they're an accurate representation of coastal yeah but they just don't do it for me like Brisbane's look nice they I always thought

Rockhamptons were jungles like i never really considered them as as coasts yeah i guess that's yeah that's fair too yeah so and again you know it depends on you know and what what you're breeding it to or if you've got you know the specific look you're looking for then maybe that what, what floats your boat and that's fine too. But yeah, it's, it's a, it's a complicated thing, I guess. But, um, yeah, those, uh, I'm trying to think what Port Douglas would be with our current, uh, thoughts on classification. So, um, that might have to be in a future discussion after the book comes out, but, you know, it's, it all, we've seen that

happen. You know, the green trees are a great example of that where everybody just kind of bred whatever to whatever, you know, you see those Arubiacs a lot, you know, the Arubiacs and they've become, that's a hybrid now because they identified that they're two separate species. And so, um, and, and classified them as such. And such and so you know we probably knew that 20 years ago but just because it wasn't put in a scientific publication doesn't make it not so you know so yeah yeah but to each their own i guess it's snakes and boxes so yeah all right well did we beat this topic into the ground i'm sure there's probably things we missed or other arguments. So if you've got some good arguments for us, let us know. If you've got beef with our beef, bring it. with Phil and Casey on taxonomy. You were busy with work for that one.

So we missed you on that one. I was. I got some feedback on that one about bringing some people on that know a lot about. Oh, and also in the stress debate one too. Yeah. Yeah, there's some experts in the field

that we could chat about and get some more insight into those topics. Because with the taxonomy debate, none of us were taxonomists. With the stress debate, in the field that we could chat about and get some more insight into those topics. Cause you know, with the taxonomy debate, none of us were taxonomists with the stress debate. None of us are cortisol researchers. In case you're not picking it up, we're idiots folks. Yeah. I like that podcast smart list and I kind of identify with that sometimes. Like, you know, I, I, uh, I i'm not an expert but i play one on the podcast i guess yeah yeah it's it's fun to kind of think up the different sides and you know and and anybody can kind of talk a good game but you know sure that's why there's a lot of people who

talk a good game exactly yep so and you can sound sound good to other like-minded people but yeah it's always good to get the experts in here and get their opinions on stuff so i had to invite any experts in the fields that we're chatting about to get on here and joel oafman yeah come on zach we need you we need your input but maybe not some we don't we don't want some, some, uh, self identified experts because they're out there too. They'll give you an earful, tell you how crappy your podcast is. They will not grace us with their presence.

We will not invite them on here. No. Well, my friend, my dogs would shout them down. Yeah. Are we, are we at an end of this topic oh we're not throw out there done okay nope well give them the outro justin we don't really uh kind of put out our information very often do you want to know tell people they can see you sure i am actually one of the uh the people who's actually still on Facebook. So you can find me, Chuck Poland, on Facebook. And then I have an Instagram, Chuck Norris Wins. It's kind of an amalgamation of my life. So I'm not one of those people who's just strictly

reptiles. You can actually find out what a weirdo I am. Uh, so those are probably the two best ways to, to kind of get it, get ahold of me. Um, and then, yeah, now you go. All right. And Justin Julander on Facebook and, uh, also Instagram. I'm jggulander. And I mostly post pictures of wild animals. So, birds, mammals, mostly reptiles. But I throw some birds and amphibians and mammals in there as well. And more birds as of late as I've started taking more pictures of birds. That's true. It's kind of fun.

So, you can see me there. Australian Addiction Reptiles. Australianaddiction.com is my my website and I actually updated it. So you can see some updates there. Um, got the, the new books coming out. So I thought I'd give a little insight into that and then, um, put up some new collection pages and stuff. So good times. Some new visit pages. I put up the Texas trip and the Arizona trip. So check out my website. Look at the visits tab.

It has all the different trips I've been on. Not all of them, but a lot of the Herp trips I've been on. So check that out. Yeah, we'll end by thanking the Moralia Pythons Radio Network, Eric and Owen, and their consigliere's. Is that what you say? No, maybe not. I think it's concierge. I have no clue.

I don't know why I said that. They're interns. We'll call them interns that help them out with the stuff but uh check out can't they be like undergraduate students by now like i feel like they're like you know what i mean they're not quite interns like they actually are like you know they're helping you know more they're like contributing more than like just an intern like you know what i mean like the intern's the one you treat like shit and like you't care about. But your undergrad – Well, I mean –

Yeah. He's always bad-mouthing those poor interns. Lucas and Riley, you got to ask for a raise, I guess. That's right. That's right. Title change at least. All right. Check out MoreliaPythonRadio.com

and check them out on all the social media sites. I think that does it for us. We at the end of another fight. Check us out next week for another episode of Reptile Fight Club. Hot damn, hold tight for another one Thank you.