Reptile Fight Club - Can Reptiles be Domesticated?

Episode Date: September 1, 2023

Justin and Chuck tackle the most controversial topics in herpetoculture. The co-hosts or guests take one side of the issue and try to hold their own in a no-holds-barred contest of intellect. Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the question, Can reptiles be domesticated? Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome Welcome to Reptile Fight Club. Thanks for joining us. I guess hopefully my brain shows up at some point in this podcast. But I'm Justin. And here's Chuck. What is up, Mr. Chuck? Hey, how you doing? Hey, hey.

Yeah, my brain's not here today either. I'm super tired. Adam Sandler on there. Yeah. Yeah, it was a long day today. Yeah. That's the way some days go, right? Yeah.

Wow. Looking forward to my bed. Hopefully you'll wake up a little bit to fight, you know, get that ire, get your dander up, get the adrenaline flowing. Well, it has been a week, that's for sure. It's already Thursday, which is kind of nice. Yeah. We're headed up into the mountains for the weekend, so that should be nice. You're doing that Friday after work?

Yeah, or before, before like half day what's what's what is a weekend in the mountains is that camping right now is that skiing right now what the hell's going on it's definitely not skiing right now okay but uh yeah unless you go up really really high and then you're on a horse or something. But we're going up to visit my parents. They're up at a girls camp. So there's like cabins and stuff. So it's not going to be roughing it too much. But only Heidi and my youngest daughter are coming. So it'll be for our family anyway.

And then my sister and her husband. Are you staying in said cabins or are you staying in a tent? Oh, wow. In cabins. So it's kind of glamping, I guess. It's very un-Jewlander of Jewlander. Yeah, exactly. But my parents are over the lake, so we'll be down at the lake, you know,

hanging out there, doing some paddling around the lake or something. That sounds fun. Yeah, it should be nice. Yeah. Yeah, it's been a cool week here it kind of chilled out the rain started um went out and did a little herping found some amphibians which is a little little different found a tiger salamander on the road cool probably half a dozen or more uh northern leopard frogs so yeah a couple fun uh well we went what two

nights ago me and my daughter uh so it's a good time yeah nice nice i bet she was stoked yeah it was pretty fun except it was kind of raining a little bit so she'd come out and see and then she'd run back and she's like all right i'm over it well by, by the third or fourth leopard frog, I'm out there taking pictures. She's like, do you care if I wait in the car? I'm like, no, no, go for it. So, yeah. It's not like that hasn't happened to you before. Yeah, for sure.

Unfortunately, if you got hit by cars and stuff. Right. I guess that's the way it goes sometimes. That's the downside of road cruising. Yeah, there was a big old northern leopard frog that had been hit, unfortunately, but it was a huge specimen. So, yeah, pretty crazy. At least I'm pretty sure it was. I didn't like turn it.

It was belly up on the road. So I guess it potentially could have been an invasive bullfrog, but it looked leopard froggy. So, I don't know. It was fun to see that tiger salamander, though. It was a really nice one, really, uh, yellow, yellow on it. So yeah, that's kind of rare up here. They're usually kind of olive green and black, you know, not super flashy, but this one is really flashy. So it's always fun yeah cool yeah what else is going on i i made a kind of a fun observation and apparently you know others have seen this before so it's not groundbreaking or anything but i thought it was hilarious so these uh baby hosmeri you know the the

hosmers spiny-tailed skinks um when they come up on a cricket or, you know, they're, they're going to pounce on, they hold up a hand, like kind of above their body, like distracting it. Kind of like when you're trying to catch a lizard and you distract with one hand and swoop in with the other, they distract it with one hand and then bite it. It's, it's really pretty funny and, uh, crazy looking, but i need to get a video of it so i'll try to try to get that up on my youtube page one of these days if i can record it i usually throw the crickets in there and go oh crap i was going to record that you know so i've i've seen it three or four times and some people said they saw their adults doing it

and kind of but they wouldn't grab the cricket they'd kind of it was like they were teaching the babies or something but i separated the babies from their parents uh so they're in the neighboring cage but so are you teaching them now are you i'm the one teaching them yeah just hand above the cricket yeah like check this out my daughter said they're like that's what you do when you catch a lizard i'm like that's it when i try to catch a lizard i'm a little slow these days but oh come on yeah no i'm pretty slow but what do you do yeah i went down uh you'd still chase a parenti if you had to oh yeah definitely definitely yeah that's all right. I know how to motivate Joolander. Oh, yeah.

I know how to get your competitive spirit into gear. Yeah. I've been riding my bike a little more. Nice. I've been to work. To work and back? Yeah. About, you know, maybe 18 miles round trip, so not too bad.

That's pretty good. Yeah. And then there's a good. Yeah. And then, uh, there's, there's a lot of Hills between my house and work too. So you got to go up to get to get to work, but yeah, I found the path of least resistance or the most gradual Hills, I guess, but it's still, it's still a bear. Yeah, for sure. It's not going to be easy in your neck of the woods, for sure. Yeah. But yeah, hopefully I can get into shape and be able to chase some parentis soon. I feel like you probably could chase some parentis now. I haven't ran for a while, so I could swim after a marathon, a water monitor or something. You feel like your swimming endurance is still...

Yeah, it's all right. It's all right? Like, what is that? I mean, I could go a couple thousand yards without really getting too... Then your cardio is good, man. It's all right. Running and swimming, I found, take different different uh breathing and i find i find swimming much harder for me yeah um it takes much i mean i can swim but it takes yeah

i like by the end i'm dead man like because i don't like train my cardio that way but you know put me on a machine and i can like motor you know motor my way through it you know i think i think uh you know the better technique you have the word you know the longer you have to go and the more you have to swim to get much work out if you have lesser uh skill i guess in the pool but yeah that's the way it goes i suppose i never had to have skill in the pool. So I, I just don't want this inner tube around my middle anymore, but that proves to be very difficult. And I like, I like to eat.

I like my food. I like my treats. So yeah, it's a, it's a pretty fair trade. I don't know. I'm not obese by any stretch, but I'm not,

I'm not skinny. I was seeing some pictures of like probably maybe eight years ago or something the last time i went into my doctor he was like mr poland you're obese yeah yeah it's it's funny how easy it is to fit in that category after 40 i mean i got i'm like down to 180 now and my bmi is like 25 point something, which is like in the range for my age. Yeah. And, you know, I feel like I'm, my body type's pretty typical. So the BMI probably applies.

So maybe I fit into that. I don't think in general BMI is a good indicator of stuff just because people are so different and it's kind of a whack way to measure shit yeah yeah yeah but but i mean i guess if there's a marker of like trying to be in the middle of the road uh for my age i'm checking the box i guess is what i'm trying to say yeah well here we go talking about old people stuff again i think we spent a lot of time on that last week sorry listeners i'm sure geriatric reptile fight club yeah they're like get through this nonsense and talk about reptiles but yeah i i went down uh to kind of central well i guess a couple couple hours south of me um and then kind of out in the west desert, you know, out by the

what Salt Lake out by the salt flats, that kind of area, um, just maybe south of the salt flats, um, where they do the racing, you know, in Utah. Um, and it was really hot and dry. I went down mainly because one of my buddies was in from Texas. So I went to hang out with him. And so, you know, uh, An anson we had a podcast at the reptile show but his brother his uh older brother was out visiting his kids who lived down in uh provo area so picked him up we went out in the west desert there was a toad migration uh out there i was hoping to kind of catch the tail end of that, but it was in the news and it was probably reported, you know, a few days after he's like, yeah,

and then I got there a few days after the story. And so it was like, yeah, I didn't see any toads. So a couple of lizards, that was about it. We didn't, you know, I did a hike. He's, he's not from a, you know, Texas isn't very mountainous where he Dallas area. So he was, you know, awestruck by the mountains and stuff it's it's pretty fun to see somebody get excited about your home state but yeah yeah um but yeah

it was fun to fun to hang out anyway and get out there but yeah a little too hot and dry for much activity especially early on and then i had to wake up at like four to go pick up my daughters in idaho so i think i rolled in about 1 a cause I had that two, two and a half hour drive after I dropped off my buddy. So, you know, it was, uh, not much sleep last weekend and, uh, but yeah, it's fun to, fun to hang out with my friend. So cool. Have an to get out and herp, you know, just even if it's a little slow. I thought we'd see at least, you know, a snake or two on the road. And now it's raining, so down there might be much better for like milk snakes and stuff like that. But I don't know.

It's raining hard, though. Man, it downpoured here. It was pretty crazy. Yeah. Utah, you don't get much rain. It's not a rainy state. In the summertime, it's raining hard though man it downpoured here it was pretty crazy yeah utah you don't get much rain it's it's not in the summertime it's not yeah especially in the summer i mean once in a while but it's usually just a sprinkle like most utahns don't own an umbrella or carry around an umbrella or anything so yeah we're we're not really a rainy state but we would get most of our precipitation in the form of snow. So it's been kind of nice, you know, having a little break in the, you know, 90 plus degree days.

Do you feel like though that, is it humid? Yeah, it gets a little more humid, but not a ton. I mean, when it rains it does, but other than that, it's pretty. We've been having a lot more humidities in our summers. Yeah, it used to be a lot drier out here. But it seems like the past, like, at least three or four summers, like, we have this period where just the humidity is just, like, not normal for this area. Yeah. So maybe that's our new normal.

Who knows? Yeah. Well, we did schedule some really great guests for our next recording. We did? Do tell, Justin. Well, I'm not going to tell. This is a teaser. What? This is not a tell-all.

Tease me then, Justin. Tease me. I told you. I wrote you a message, but you probably didn't look at it or something. Listen, this is for theater. You're supposed to go along with it. Tease me, Justin. I am teasing you.

Yeah, but they're going to it's going to be a good one. So, you know, hopefully it happens. One of the one of the guests was a little on the fence. We were trying to go to him into coming on and he's not being goaded. And then, and then I guess he was able to be talked into it by the other guests. So it should be a, should be a fun one, but some fun, fun characters for sure.

We'll leave it at that and let, let you guys guess who it is, but excited for that. I think we're going to take next week off, but I don't know. Maybe I'll record something at carpet fest. That'd be kind of fun. But it won't be the same without you.

So, you know, just go get a ticket. Get out there. No, I don't think that's going to. It's just totally cut and loose at work. So, yeah, it's not working. It's understandable. But I'm excited. I'm excited to get out there.

My carpet fest shirt came yesterday came already nice you know when is what but um right now it's uh now it's here and there my my green diamond python shirt so sorry eric it's it's pretty are you gonna are you gonna it's cool looking yeah are you gonna run up and shove money in eric's face and be like hey can i get my shirt now oh no i'm gonna be very indignant like where is my shirt i have arrived please shirt me i'm gonna come shirtless just to just to rub it like oh and you promised me a shirt yeah mac and wookiee shower me with grapes you bring my shirt where is my shirt oh boy that's that's what they think i'm i don't know the podfather asked

one question yeah i i heard one i heard one carpet head jumping off your roof totally uh cinched the game there eric's uh eric said defcon won at carpet fest oh yeah they're pretty soon it's gonna be like everybody rolls up in the Hannibal Lecter style. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Straight jacketed with the wheel, the little dolly. With the dirty spit mask and everything. Yeah. That's how we need to wheel in Owen to carpet fest. Brought to you by mutton restraint gloves mutton restraints when you're afraid your friend might be a cannibal use mutton restraints

uh i think strongest on the market i i don't know if i've talked about that story on here or not maybe we have but yeah when we were flying to darwin um there was maybe some turbulence or something but nick looked over at me and peter birch and said you know if this plane goes down i am prepared to eat you i'm like well first you'd have to catch us man i don't know why you assume you're gonna be the one that comes out on top in a cannibalistic struggle like i can run pretty good you might you might have the you know the bulk on me but yeah that was funny so we you know and then i was filming something you know filming a night tiger and in the background you hear uh mutton letting loose with a little flatulence and so so we called him the farting cannibal after that.

Oh, my God. Oh, Nick. That was pretty good times. That's awesome. That was kind of a scary trip. He almost didn't make it back from that one. Not just because he let his ice cream fly into Mark's face. Yeah. just because he let his ice cream fly into Mark's face.

Yeah. But he got a little close to the edge of the water with a lot of crocodiles concentrated in one area. We almost didn't come home with Nick. So, but he listened in time to get away from the water's edge when something looked like something big was coming towards him. Oh, I just didn't want to have to call his wife at the time and say, your husband's not coming back.

He gave a nice meal to a croc. But luckily, he heeded our yelling and ran back up the hillside and was not eaten by a crocodile in front of us, which was very good. We didn't want to be one of those, you know, statistical idiot tourist stories that they tend to have over there. I think you would have definitely been one of those statistical idiot stories. I am a statistical idiot, that's for sure. Yeah. Yeah. That's the way it goes.

Stats it. I'm excited to get back over to Australia. That's good. Good times, good times. Yep. I looked at tickets today. They're not too bad. Coming down.

They're in the $1,100 range, which is from LAX, which is pretty close to where you are. Yeah. Or I imagine San Diego. Are flights cheap from San Diego as well, or is it just mainly LAX? Well, what do you mean? I don't know. If I try to book a ticket from Salt Lake to Australia, it's like $500 more. But I can buy a ticket to LA and back for $100 round trip.

I don't know how much different in price it is, but I know that LAX just flies to different areas. They're more international. They have different routes than San Diego does. But I don't know. For all the flying I've ever done done i've always done it out of limburg field so i've never really had to mess with lax because it's a shit show up there yeah yeah it's not fun but no it's not i don't know i it's been a little while so i guess we did we fly out of there no we didn't go there uh for france we flew... France. Flew direct over

there or something. We went through... You had French people come and pick you up and take you because that is the only way to come into France. Yeah. I don't know why I sound like that. That was pretty good for France. Pretty good. Pierre.

Pierre is here. Pierre is here. Pierre has joined us on the podcast. Pierre. Pierre. here. Pierre is here. Pierre has joined us on the podcast. Pierre. Pierre. Exactly. All right. Well, still waiting on cow king eggs. Got most of my antler just separated out.

And a bunch of them have started eating pretty slick on their first try. So it's a nice feeling when an ant baby takes its first one yeah so those uh the pygmy pythons are probably the most difficult they're kind of the standouts and require a little trickery or assisting or whatnot the western stems tend to be a little feist you know finicky as well but i found that boiled pinkies well that sounds terrible but taking a frozen thawed pinky or frozen pinky and putting it in in boiling water that's the way that is done sorry uh to my uh sensitive friends out there including myself no no you just boil it alive so you record the noise and then you play it back for the snake when you put it in there. Yeah. We're not talking about torture here,

but yeah. So a frozen pinky just put into boiling water and then it kind of semi cooks it. But yeah, those sweet belts love that stuff. So it's been a, and it's interesting as just the wheat belts kind of like all the others are like,

man, I'll pass on that. Is it like, I don't know. It might be, it might be just the temperature of it, but, uh, I'll pass on that. Is it like just that it's nice and hot? I don't know. It might be. It might be just the temperature of it. Or it kind of messes up the smell a little bit. You know, it kind of cooks out the smell.

I don't know. I'm not sure. But I definitely prefer a cooked steak over a raw steak. So, well, maybe that's part of it. I mean, You know. Anyway, they seem to be getting better with the subsequent generations. And maybe that leads us to our topic. What do you think?

Do tell. Are you ready to fight, Chuck? Oh, come on, man. I come on here ready to fight you all the time. You are a very worthy opponent. I don't know about that. A capable foe, if you will. No, I don't know.

Well, I mean, all those martial arts. I was going to say, I'm easy prey. I'm a soft target for you. You just lay over, expose your belly. That's it. That's it. It's eviscerating me. I'm ready for it.

That's right. Oh, no. Take my lashes. All right. So what are we fighting about? What the hell? If reptiles can be domesticated or not. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.

This one kind of came up when I was listening to, uh, Will Filipec on, uh, rally pythons radio. He was talking to Rob and Eric about, um, you know,

trying to see if pythons could reproduce it any month of the year. Like if that's just a, something that maybe ball pythons are in that class. And if that's something that can be, um, done just through domesticating, I don't, they didn't really,

I think Will said he didn't believe that reptiles or ball pythons or whatever were domesticated. And, you know, I guess it depends on what kind of idea or, or theory of domestication you subscribe to. But, I don't know. I thought it would be an interesting topic to talk about.

All right, let's flip the fucking coin. Let's see who's going to do this. Let's go. Whoa. Oh, okay. All right. Call that. Heads.

It is heads. You, my friend, are the winner. Winner, winner winner chicken dinner Ooh gosh Now that I won I don't know what to do Domestication of reptiles I'll go with a nay I'll go with a nay You don't think that me

Nay Okay horse boy let's get this on. Oh, man. Well, you get it on. I won. You go. I guess I go. All right.

I have been chucked. Okay, so domestication, right? Just thinking about different species that have been domesticated and kind of what that leads to. And I think maybe there's kind of a category of domestication where, or part of domestication where definitely some types of reptiles could fall into at least this one criteria, which is that people have control of their reproduction. You know you know, they're, they're kind of dependent on people putting them together and organizing their social structure. So I guess that's one, one criteria that, you know, humans are in charge of their,

their breeding structure. They're not, uh, choosing their, their mate And a lot of traits kind of find their way into that process. You know, we see different mutations. We see maybe some unbiased selection where you're, you don't really, you're not like saying, oh, I'm going to pick this one because of this or that, or, but it, but it kind of goes along with other things you are picking like pattern or color, or sometimes we pick stuff that's a little more tame or easy, or that gets feeding easier, those kinds of things are so, and then sometimes they come with things that are unanticipated, um, that you just can't really quantify, I guess. Um, but that, uh, makes them more apt to domestication, something like taking, you know, a wider range of prey items,

things like that. And so I would probably use maybe like a Pogno snake as an example. They, they adapted pretty well to taking mice instead of toads. You know, they're not as picky as their wild counterparts. So that's kind of one area where some species of reptiles fall in with other domestic species. Over to you, Chuck. Oh, me. Oh, that was for me? Yeah, yeah. Wait, are you the one I'm fighting? I can't remember. Oh me oh that was for me Yeah yeah Wait are you the one I'm fighting I can't remember

I just lay over on my belly You're just over there On your belly Me and Ruby are on the ground Dare me a new one Well I mean Okay so You talk about domestication, you talk about control of reproduction. And, and I mean, I, I guess, I guess when I think of kind of archetypal examples of domestication, you think of things like cattle, horses, hoof, you know, hoof stock, dogs, cats, all they're all land mammals.

Right. You know, you know, so, you know, the idea that something much older, kind of much more ancient, you know, not as, you know, not not not in the same evolutionary, you know, timescale, um, a much older animal by arguably a more primitive, you know, animal, less of a more developed brain, maybe more simple of a functioning, you know, brain. Um, I, you know, is it even possible for them to be domesticated on a level that would qualify by modern human standards of what we think of domestication? And I just, I, I, it would be hard for me like you could target train a snake, like I'm not sure I'm still 100 percent buying, you know, that that is some indication of an ability to domesticate something. If you can even reliably show that you're target training something, you know what i mean like these markers that people want to use to say like oh look i can you know i can do this and elicit this response right like um yeah and certainly i mean go ahead go ahead no i was just gonna say i think you're right i mean if anything you know domestication of reptiles is in the infants you. There's not a lot of progress.

There was no real need for domestication of reptiles because people in the past have mainly looked at food sources or transportation. The horse or cattle for food and horses for transportation and food. Or rocks for pulling things. Horses for transportation and food. And if you look at how long people have been breeding hoofstock and canines and other mammals for domestic uses or for industrial, agricultural uses, it's been way longer than anybody's ever been breeding reptiles. Yeah, exactly. You know, we've got that head start and maybe that's a way to look to, but I totally agree with you. I just think it's so like, if, if it's possible to domesticate them, we're so in an infancy with it that it would be hard to like, you know, how do you measure that? How do you like, what, what would, what would that look

like? And, you know, obviously like ball pythons are probably our best like thing to see what happens when we breed a bunch, you know, and, and clearly you kind of see this where the, the, you know, the mutations just start to show up all over the place. Um, and it's more and more, you know, and obviously like, you know, when you start making and obviously like, you know, when you start making combinations, um, leading to new things and making more combinations, um, but

it, you know, I, I guess is that, is that domestication though? Well, I mean, I, I think it's a, it's a small part, you know, that, that artificial selection, um, by the humans, that's, that's part of the domestication process, I guess, you know, that, that artificial selection, um, by the humans, that's, that's part of the domestication process, I guess, you know, you know, I, I think, you know, comparing apples to apples, uh, that's the hard thing right here is because I guess maybe dogs might fall into that because they weren't really domesticated for food. No, they were more like companionship i mean i think i think most i think so if you look at most dog breeds up until fairly recently where we have these toy breeds or like these like petite dogs and stuff most dogs have a purpose or a function in the country of

origin that they were bred they At least the original ones. Yeah. And so I think most people looked at canines like they looked at horses and other things like, hey, this is an animal to be domesticated and used in the cattle or whatever, whatever they're doing. Um, you know, and I, and I just don't, I don't see that application with reptiles. Uh, so I don't, so, you know, it's at least that application, but the other application you were talking about, about like a little toy poodle to sit on your lap or whatever. I think maybe they might, might be more comparable to that, where we want something that's tame, that's not going to bite us, that looks

pretty, you know, that, that doesn't try to get away every time you get it out of its cage or doesn't try to bite you and things like that. And I think, you know, in some instances we're moving towards that, something that's easy to breed in captivity like you know well i think i think our problem is that we have the tools and the knowledge as selective breeders to to move towards domestication but i don't necessarily think that selecting for color and pattern over things like you know docile docile the docileness or how it feeds or, you know, other kinds of advantageous traits. Maybe that's a different way to look at how you select. And maybe we don't select that way. You know what I mean? I mean, I guess if it doesn't come along with,

you know, an increased or at least a baseline good ability to breed in captivity it's probably not going to get very far even if it's the most desirable trait or look or whatever or even a trait in a species that's not commonly bred or hasn't been bred in captivity long enough you know isn't as far on its way to domestication i guess i guess you know if i if i'm in a toilet swirling around what i'm trying to say is You know, isn't as far on its hobby or like as, you know, they don't, they're not driven by things like agriculture and, you know, human progress. They're more of a leisure thing. And thus, I don't, I just don't see them ever being well okay i guess i guess we have to talk about like i don't think they can be domesticated anyway but yeah it if if a dog and a cat are domesticated and a horse and a even a

a sheep or a goat could be you know know, considered domesticated, then what's the threshold for, for a reptile? How would you, how would you, how would you measure that and like quantify it? And I guess that's what I'm kind of trying to get at is like, I'm not so sure that you can apply just like the, the, you know, taxonomy issue. I'm not sure you can apply the same standard over here as you can apply over here. If you want to get it, what domestication looks like, because I don't think domestication for a reptile looks the same as for, you know, a hoofstock mammal or something. Yeah. And that's what I'm talking about, you know, a hoofstock mammal or something. Yeah, yeah. And that's what I'm talking about, you know, comparing apples to apples. Yes.

You need to kind of define the criteria that would suggest something as domesticated like a reptile versus. But would you agree that I think that that crevasse is a little wide right now? Sure, sure. Yeah. And again, I think it's at the beginning stages. But, you know, maybe what traits would kind of get it over the threshold maybe is kind of where are they making those jumps? Now, you know, kind of looking at what defines there's there's talk about like a reduced limbic brain in in domestic animals, like they'll compare a domestic dog with a wolf or a domesticated pig with a boar, you know, wild boar and they, their, their brain is actually smaller. So, you know,

being trained or, or being able to be trained or whatever, um, by, by humans or living with humans, I don't know that that's, you know, necessarily a good mark benchmark for domestication necessarily, because actually domestic animals are maybe somewhat dumber than their wild counterparts. They don't need a larger brain to stay alive in the wild, right? They have it a lot easier in captivity. So they kind of lose the need for that part of their brain. And so they, their brain shrinks, uh, demonstrably, right? So that's a part of of that. And, you know, I don't think we've necessarily seen that or maybe even looked at that. And that probably takes, you know, yeah, hundreds of thousands of years, millions of years. I don't know. Yeah. So we obviously we're not going to see that as a characteristic, but you know, when you talk about, um, domestic animals, you know,

and, and smarts or, or ability to be trained, you know, some dogs are still smart and can do a job and be trained, but at the same time, they're kind of dumb, you know, they're going to get hit by a car or whatever, I guess, or don't listen or do whatever. And like, or just like horrible pets, you know what I mean you're just like ah this dog doesn't it's not a good dog right you know but it's still domesticated by all measures of you know yeah so you know we're gonna have to look at different um aspects of of domestication to kind of find a category that reptiles could fit under because we're not trying to breed them for food. So we don't care if their muscle mass is getting bigger or they're, you know,

that kind of thing, but you know, we're looking at them in the regards to pets. So maybe their reproductive strategy is, is easier in captivity than it was when we brought them in and ball pythons definitely fall under that right for sure yeah they were almost impossible to breed back in the day when they were just imported from africa and people were like couldn't ever breed them they were the hardest thing to breed in captivity back at the time and they were considered a trash snake you know and and then people like uh bar check and mccurley and all the those guys that were breeding ball pythons or had some interest in ball pythons back then um you know where the bulk of people weren't really that

interested in them um started producing some shiny you know animals then they found a way and and now breeding is commonplace and anybody can breed a ball python you know especially one that's been captive bred and and over multiple generations and i python you know especially one that's been captive bred and and over multiple generations and i guess that that's another that's another kind of question mark on it is is you know is domestication just a matter of like number of captive generations under your belt or is or is or do you have to really like, no, you have to do, you know, there has to be, the animal has to demonstrate something, you know, behavioral return on something to show, you know, that it's able to do something it didn't used to be able to do. You know, like a progression, right? Yeah.

And, you know, I just don't see that. The thing that sparked this was kind of the discussion on, you know, if pythons can breed any month of the year. Right. If you can set it up like with ball pythons, you know, clutches have been recorded in every month of the year. And the question was, do they do that anyway? But I believe there's distinct seasonality in Africa where, you know, in the rain, they have a wet and a dry season and have a reproductive season. And it's all tied to natural events and things like that. And look, man, to me, it's just like, you know, when you have animals outside and I've gotten, you know, a couple of pairs of animals in cages outside. You pay attention to what the weather is like day to day. And you really realize, Holy crap.

These things actually go through, you know, in the winter, I would say they have an, even in San Diego, probably the mildest, you know, winter and in North America,

except for maybe, you know, South of us a little, but you know, south of us a little. But, you know, they still go through a very, very pronounced seasonal, you know, drop. That's a very clear signal to them. So that's not a surprise or a great leap for me to think that when you bring them in and breed them under a couple of generations generations that they lose that sensitivity to that signal and become like, Oh, this can happen anytime. Okay. Anytime. And then it's just a matter of

like when the males there and the cycle starts, you know what I mean? Just the queuing from the male rather from Matt, rather than from the season, because you've kind of said, nope, this signal is kind of quiet. You don't need to worry about this. Yeah, exactly. You don't need to worry about this. And I think that's, I don't know if that's a function of domestication though, or if that's just that as a part of, especially in this regard, like in, in breeding of pets or, you know, production of pets, you're helping that area when you're able to breed any time of the year and when the reproduction gets easier and progressively easier in captivity compared to the bringing in a wild counter. Yeah. Things like that.

So I will agree with you. I think it is. I think it's a component of it. Yeah. I think it's a component of it. I think that's a part of it. I don't think it can define the whole saying this is domesticated. Yeah, yeah. And I mean we don't see huge variations in size and things like that because I think a lot of times we – I guess with males, we maybe try to breed those early, but it seems like wild imports often come in gravid at very small sizes that you go, wait a second, I thought

they had to be 2000 grams before I could even put a male with it. But if they're five years old and they're that size, then they're probably fine to breed. Yeah. Yeah. And then and then you know being able to i think that was another criteria that's talked about with with domesticated species is that they have a relatively rapid rate of reproduction that they can get to reproductive uh size or capacity very fairly quickly and so they've like been reproductively optimized basically. Yeah, exactly. Yep. And, and, and I don't know, you know, it's kind of chicken and egg thing, which, which

came first where they selected because they mature faster and read, you know, because out of how many, you know, how many large hoof stock are there in the world, you know, a hundred, 200 species or or whatever and how many have been domesticated maybe a dozen you know not a lot so yeah it's why were those others domesticated why didn't we just domesticate buffalo and not just kill them off why didn't we just make those the new cow that were better suited to the land and probably more efficient another thing is efficiency you know and reptiles of course Another thing is efficiency, you know, and reptiles, of course, are very efficient at, uh, you know, they can reproduce with fairly limited,

um, input, I guess you'd say. So, um, you're not having to, well, at least some species, I, you know, of course this depends on a lot of different factors, but that was another one that they're, they're, uh, and again, that's mainly for food items, you know, what you're trying to eat. And so that doesn't really apply to reptiles. And I don't, I don't know if we have like a domestication category for reptiles or, or a well-defined because we just haven't, nobody's tried to domesticate reptiles, at least to my knowledge. Maybe alligators? Could alligators be considered domestic because they've been bred for skins? Crocodiles and alligators? I don't know.

I mean, I'd have to look at some literature to see if they're changing in their reproductive strategy or if you can get babies and eggs and things like that out of them more frequently or if they just wild animals in a box, you know, because I don't think that that necessarily just because you can breed them in captivity, that doesn't make them domestic or just because you can tame them down. Tameness does not equal domestication, right? So something has to change between their wild counterparts and them. To me, domestication is a change from their wild type to something that serves a purpose to humans. It has to serve a purpose to humans. And so I guess you could say that reptiles do such in a casual enjoyment manner. Yeah, like a toy poodle. Yes, exactly. Cockapoo.

Yes. Exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, and obviously that's kind of a byproduct of another domestication event in the dog. And the dogs probably hung out with humans looking, you know, took advantage of humans where they fed on their, you know, the byproducts and things and kind of hung out because they were getting free meals. meals and then over time i'm sure that's exactly how it started is they got used the food to get them to come in and started a form of relationship and probably stole some puppies and yeah and now they're genetically distinct from the their ancestors where they came from you know the wolf or whatever that they were domesticated from. And so they're no longer wolves, you know, and we haven't definitely haven't seen that in reptiles, although we you know, I don't know if anybody's compared, you know, wild leopard gecko with their captive counterpart and compared the I'm sure there'd be plenty of genetic changes. And whether or not those genetic changes mean anything, that would be kind of hard to say without an extensive knowledge of the leopard gecko genome. We may have the leopard gecko genome.

I don't know. I imagine there's a few that have been sequenced as far as captive reptiles, and that would probably be a very good candidate for that. So that'd be an interesting comparison to see if, you know, you see huge differences in the genes of a captive versus a wild leopard gecko. And obviously we've found that there are some genetic distinctness between different leopard gecko species and that that those were not known at the time of bringing them into captivity and so different species have been kind of mish-mashed and and mixed together uh so yeah you know that that could play a role in that as well so you know i guess defining a change that has some kind of measurable phenotypic characteristic,

you know, that's difficult to do. But somebody like Ben could probably do that. But, yeah. Anyway, that's just kind of the thoughts on that. You know, there is some kind of genetic change that occurs that separates them from their wild counterparts. Mm-hmm. And I just, I mean, it's, you know,

you just think about dogs and, and, uh, and just how long dogs have been, you know, with humans. I just, I just think that, yeah, yes, it's a function of environment, but it's also just a function of time and generations. And, um, you know, those, those types of genes don't change like that overnight. Sure. Sure. Yeah. I mean, you know, sometimes there can be more rapid changes, but we're talking, you know, probably decades rather than although there was that study on those lizards on or something and they weren't able to access the island. They came back like 10 years later and the lizards had adapted and like taken over a vegetarian lifestyle. Their whole intestinal tract had changed in size and shape and to digest plants versus, you know, bugs because there weren't a lot of bugs on the island, something like that, where they saw those, you know, physical phenotypic changes in a relatively short amount of time. And, you know, I guess that the old saying nature finds a way, you know, Dr. Malcolm.

So, yeah. So, you know, I think some changes probably could happen relatively rapidly or they just die out, you know. So what that could how that could translate to captive animals is probably difficult to say, especially in regards to this discussion. But I don't know. Yeah, I mean, it's the dog and I think, what, 15,000 years ago, they figure that the dog kind of started the domestication process. So they've got about 14,500 year, 14,800 year jump on us. I don't know if we've been breeding ball pythons for 100 years even. So 14,950 year jump on us. So yeah, who knows what will happen in another 14,000 years, but you know.

Maybe all those snakes on YouTube that have arms and legs drawn on them will actually have arms and legs at that point. And they're walking around with a little top hat doing all the shit that we do to them that reptile people hate they'll just do it on their own and they will be derpy and they will let everybody beat their snoots because their brains have shrunk you know from domestic exactly exactly and and and then they will cry out this are you not entertained this is not this is not this is what you wanted. This is what you wanted, yeah. Oh, man.

So. It could happen. I'm just saying. Hey, hey, you know, if we're around in 15,000 years to see, you know, that'll be. Boy, I'll definitely be the get off my lawn guy by then. We'll be heads in jars like on people around or something yep oh boy these are the two grumpiest men on the snakes with legs yeah i don't know that's the grumpiest two men with their heads in jars yep exactly well um i don't know what. What other thoughts do you have on this? I think about chickens.

Again, that's for food. We're using them for their eggs, but they can pump out eggs like nobody's business. Now, I think there may be a case for venom extraction where you're using a snake to extract for venom so it has a use now i don't know what domestication you know would of that would look like but that's definitely a good example of a reptile that's you know directly being manipulated by people for a human gain sure i i would expect you would see probably increased venom production. You know, they could produce venom quicker than their wild counterparts. You might see, however, changes in the venom, which could not be good.

So there would have to be some selection. So you keep the venom so it protects against, you know, produces antibody, protect against the wild and venomation events. Yeah, maybe they they have babies that produce more venom. And, you know, you kind of have that selection for the ones because you're going to try to pay more attention or try to feed one that produces a lot of venom more frequently. So it keeps producing venom and you can keep extracting those kinds of things. Yeah. And I think, I think if you, you know, as a keeper, oh my Lord, stop it. Stop it. I'm trying to talk over here. Chime in from Ruby. Hold on. I got to take care of Miss no respect over here chime in from ruby hold on i gotta take care of miss no respect over here there you go

but yeah i i do think that you know having having that uh you know increased uh production yeah i guess they could be considered a production animal in some regards you know the yeah and i mean i think if you look at the way they keep in those facilities to keep the animal optimal, you could look at that as manipulating their environment to optimize them for, you know, you know, being, you know, domesticated for, you know, more output of anti-venom or whatever. Yeah. 15,000 years, they're going to have giant heads. Yes. Like gallon tanks of venom, you of venom attached on either side. I think a limited reversion where if you take a ball python that's been produced in captivity over successive generations and then you put it back in the wild, is it able to kind of take hold or is it just going to die out? Because it's that instinct, whatever you want to call it, or knowledge or whatever to survive about dogs, like there are feral dogs, but they still kind of are dependent on humans to survive.

And, you know, I kind of wonder about that stuff, too, where they're always like, well, you know, if domestic animals got loose, they wouldn't make it. Because, yeah, but there's like if a ball python or any any animal gets loose in an area that is not for it, it didn't develop in that nipper, then it's an invasive species, right? they're gonna breed and they're gonna and if there's nothing there to check them uh you know from a predator predation standpoint then of course they're gonna do good so i don't always like buy that whole like you know yeah i i mean they're never reaping they're never they'll never survive back in the wild i well i mean you look at goats or something and goats are you know they yeah you can tell when i remember driving through uh western australia and all of a sudden we get to this area that's just like completely devoid of plants and like all the trees it's just like a wasteland and you're like what happened why is this so and then all of a sudden you see a herd

of goats run across the street you're like like, oh, okay, that makes sense. They just eat everything. Everything. But they've kind of lost that balance. So they can survive. They can get around and eat food and destroy the land. But eventually that would probably be to their demise. If there weren't people to cull them or whatever, they're probably going to starve to death down the road. Well, I mean, oh, don't do it.

Or kind of revert back to the wild state. And that's kind of the idea is if they have limited reversion where they can't revert back to that wild state, you know, even like a feral pig is still a pig genetically. And, you know, it's not it doesn't go back to being a boar or a dog doesn't go back to being a wolf you know they can't go hunt in packs and stuff although they kind of can i guess so interesting fact though plants are polyploidic so they can actually when they some plants when they're when they're really stressed they can actually rapidly shed their genome back to a primitive state. Really? Yeah.

Huh. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's definitely ways for nature to kind of take that foothold back. Yeah. You know, and again, you know, nature finds a way. I don't think any of these things are 100%, you know, despite finds a way. I don't think any of these things are a hundred percent, you know, despite, um, the common phrase a hundred percent. Yeah. And, and like, and now, now that I'm saying plants, like we domesticate plants and what is domestication of plants mean? You know what I mean? Genetically altering them so they can grow in the presence of Roundup.

I mean, that's one, that's one. No, like changing them from, I mean, if you look at the original maize, it's, it's nothing similar to the, you know, the, the corn that we produce now in taste and size and structure and, you know. Yeah. And I mean, now, now we're actually altering stuff at the, at like you had already said, the genomic level. So it's like

you know that's but but i mean we've kind of been doing that the slow way for karenia you know right i remember reading a great book uh what's his name uh starts with a b like borman or something like that i can't remember his name anyway he he was out working with wheat doing experiments with wheat trying to grow shorter thicker stalks so they didn't blow over in high winds. You know, they're disease resistant. So he's selecting strains that would not get infected by these different fungal pathogens of wheat. And it was really cool and he developed all these great strains and and was trying to you know basically give them away to other nations to let them see the benefits of

this you know get buy this wheat but then they said no i don't you know we don't want to use your american wheat or whatever and they had famines and stuff he's like i tried to give you a good wheat you know and the people who took the wheat you know had much better crop and yield and and uh less loss from disease and and uh nature you know certain storms and stuff so kind of cool but yeah over over successive you know generations cross breedings things like that you know you know i wonder too with all the hybridization. I guess hybridization is still probably generally frowned on. So we're not like creating some super pet reptile by crossing different species, trying to get the best reptile. Yeah, but I mean if you think about dogs, like they cross species of dogs. What does that really mean at this point in dogs?

Well, dogs are all the same species. You're just getting like ball python morphs. You're getting dog morphs, mutations that you're breeding into other mutations. But I don't know what that looks like in reptiles. You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, because I guess there is kind of that similarity with ball python mutations and morphs where you're it's all the same species, but there's a huge variety and appearance and pattern and color and things. But they all have basically have the same shape and function.

And, you know, you might have some other unanticipated changes like a duck bill or, you know, loss of their eyes or something that goes along or a curly tail or, you know, things like that, that kind of, and some of those are documented as, as, uh, domestication changes, like a curly tail, you know, you'll see, uh, why, uh, uh, domesticated dog will have a curly tail or a pig will have a curly tail versus their wild counterparts. I don't think boars have curly tails right so anyway um curly tails are kind of one of those things droopy ears you know droopy doesn't apply to most reptiles doesn't apply to any external ears that i can think of in reptiles especially droopy ones exactly so it's hard to use those definitions for our reptiles.

We're going to have droopy years when we get really old. Yeah, when we're domesticated. We're going to have droopy years. In 15,000 years, all humans are going to have droopy years. Because we've lost our wild ways. Really droopy years. We're getting dumber our brains are shrinking we're not gonna have the will to survive in the wild so things get tough you know um we'll just be heads in jars with droopy ears and piebald do the ears stay in

the jar or like they like they droop outside so yeah they're like helping out it's like they're hideous he has no droopy ears he must be really old yeah yeah i don't know so yeah i guess they're humans domesticated we're not that's a i guess who we, who are we working for then? I guess. Yeah. Who are we working for? The government, the government's trying to domesticate us. Oh my God.

Yeah. I think our limbic system is, is firmly intact and has evidenced by, you know, all the, the, um, limbic king,

limbic king out there. Yeah. Clearly, clearly. Um, yeah yeah i don't i i can't think of anything else i think that's topic but if anything we're in the beginning stages and i think that's definitely the takeaway here but maybe on the path i i think it's conceivable here he goes this bullshit towards oh boy uh okay all right well now look see now i paused him he like he was gearing up dude he was like revving the engine he peeled out and then he hit that and now he's stopped and now he's trying to get if you don't want to hear it i'm just saying it just seems like that's what just happened. I'm just pointing it out for the audience in case they didn't catch it.

Oh boy. Throwing me under the bus like that. No, I, I know. I think there's a, there's a, there's a,

there's a case to be made that, you know, we're on the path of domestication, that things are getting easier to breed in captivity. They're, they're being maybe less uh similar to their wild counterparts in some ways especially over successive generations um you know we're actually producing different species through hybridization you know pretty

much once you take something out of the wild you're wild, the natural system where it lived is not having influence over it. So you're basically changing it from the get-go. You know, you're the one selecting, not nature anymore. So I guess in that regard, it's on the path to domestication or at least taming. I don't know. Taming is not domestication. Or not taming. I don't know. Maybeaming is not domestication, but or not taming. I don't know. Maybe some still retain their wild state.

Well, I mean, I think taming is part of domestication, just like reproductive control is part of domestication. Sure. You know, yeah, I think different behavior shrinking of the brain domestication. Yeah. So I guess until we see those things, we probably can't say they're domestic. So I guess technically you might win this one. But then again, you won the coin toss. That's right. You took the easy one. I'm just kidding.

I didn't take the easy one. I was kind of worried about this one. Because I kind of think you could probably make a decent argument for it. But you didn't take the easy one. I was kind of worried about this one because I kind of think you could probably make a decent argument for it, but you didn't. Which I think I did. All right. Maybe you did. I'm just not trying to give you credit in the end. You gave me some good facts here.

You did. No, it was good. It was good. I think, again, I think you have to kind of know the audience that you're talking about. And obviously, like I discussed, you know, plants have their kind of nipper in domestication. And, you know, animals like hoofstock and dogs and cats and they have theirs um so i guess you just i just kind of have to figure you kind of need to figure where they fit reptiles fit in and then are we talking like you know each individual species being domesticated or is there a marker you know for

um like do we start a pool like these species have been domesticated and these haven't and what's that you know like then it kind of gets into like like you know yeah yeah like you're almost like because you're right it's easy because it's just like mostly dogs cats i mean we've got you know i don't know if wild hamsters are crazy but you know what i'm saying i always wondered how wild hamsters wild hamsters get along i mean i've worked with a lot of captive hamsters and they're mean motherfuckers huh not like i don't know i think they're all bluff like they do bluff yeah good they act like they're really tough but they're actually kind of dopey they i don't know how they survive i think they just have so much skin that you know a predator can't can't grab grab on it gets them

in there and it's just so chewy it's like bubble gum and they're just like god i can't this is too it's just too fatty too much skin yeah just kind of shakes it off the saliva walks off like have you ever seen a hamster swim they can actually inflate i have to be honest and say no no they can actually inflate their cheek pouches like they have these huge you know where they can just shove an immense amount of food but they actually inflate those with air and they act like little little tanks of oxygen you know i i saw a uh skeletal like uh work up at one of the natural history museums and they had the the cheek pouches that were like in the inflated mode and they were huge like compared to the body of the hamsterster is like having a couple oxygen tanks on their back it was pretty crazy so i wonder if they can use that to dive down you know and have an oxygen

supply stay underwater for a couple hours or something but it's pretty comical so if you ever find yourself saying if you have a hamster throw it in the pool find yourself out in the middle of the ocean with a couple dozen hamsters you've heard it here first squeeze them and breathe in here yes yeah tie them off and then tie them to your tie them to your shirt and you can float all the way home man now we're gonna get the hamster crowd upset oh my god i'll handle the hamster crowd buddy don't worry i got it you got the hamster crowd, buddy. Don't worry. I got it. You got the hamster enthusiasts. Oh, my gosh. We're just alienating one group at a time.

We're coming for you next durable community. Yeah, we're the soul slinger of mud in the alienation of non-reptile enthusiasts of our same. I've got a lot of hamsters waiting for me on the other side. With a big complaint like, this guy, this guy, he infected us with. Okay. Now all the hamsters are going to bite you. Yeah, that's true. The worst thing they do is that squirt that butter urine stuff on

you that's nasty anyway enough about hamsters on this reptile pod must i remind you always that this is not a hamster podcast that we need to get back to the reptiles but have you seen their cheeks they're huge all right well carpet fest is coming up fast if you're listening to this you're probably already missed it so i don't know if there's any use in talking about it on here but i'm excited to report back the shenanigans the the good times i plan to do a double gainer off of Eric's house into the, Oh, Oh yes. He can't stop me. No,

he doesn't have my t-shirt. I'm doing a double gainer into the pool. No. Holding hands. My father told me to say, and I'm bringing as many animals as I please. He can't stop me. Oh no. No, no. I'm looking forward to it. I please. He can't stop me. Oh, no.

No, no. I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be fun. Yeah, you're going to be restrained by the Wookiee. Yep, the Mac and Wookiee will. Yep, it's all fun and games until you're hogtied and on the ground by the Mac and Wookiee. It's all fun and games until the Mac and Wookiee takes you out. That's right, and then he sits on you with his ripe, pungent smell.

That's right. I had something really. His Mack and Musk. I had something exciting to report. And I was all. What the heck? I was all stoked to like. And then you forgot.

Bring it up on the podcast. And I forgot what it was. I forgot what it was. I'm an old man. Yeah, me too. I'm losing it. No, that's okay. But what do you do all right well anything to

throw out there no oh no i'm lame sosh i put up a i put up a little uh you know one of those youtube shorts i've been putting those up weekly so you know if you want to check out jg julander on youtube go go check it out. And you can, but I've been trying to do like a weekly YouTube short with, and I'm, I call it herping shorts just to put up little herp videos, you know, herping videos. And, uh, um, you know, the, the, the shorts are kind of in the, the vertical orientation, rather the horizontal, most of the video I take has been horizontal so I converted a few of those horizontal to vertical and put up

a short video clip of a little Willard Ridge-nosed Rattlesnake from Willard. Not Willardy. Willardy. I haven't met many Willards.

Only Willards. But anyway, this a willard eye because i don't i haven't met many will willards only willards but anyway this willard a video it got like 2400 views in like one day wow and the most any of my videos have gotten is like you know maybe 900 or something over several weeks and this one got like 2500 in a day so i don't know what happened, but, yeah, it kind of went viral. Well, very, very small-scale viral. Yeah. Reptile community viral or non-what's the dingus's name? It went communicable.

It wasn't quite viral yet. It got around, but it didn't take off. It's airborne. It's airborne, but not highly contagious. off. It's airborne. It's airborne. Not highly contagious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It hasn't made the jump yet. I think that's fair. I think you can talk about that in virology terms.

Yeah, it's vector-borne right now. There you go. There you go. I like that. You got to have the correct vector to get it. I don't know how that stuff works, but it's kind of fun, kind of dumb. I put up a video the week before of like a sagebrush lizard, and I think it got like 30 views or something. So I don't know. People aren't as excited about a sagebrush lizard as they are about a wallardy.

Well, when you say it like that. I know. Yeah, maybe I need my Attenborough voice. Not Attenborough. Oh, out here. Out in California, you call it Attenborough. What's up, Attenborough? Hey, Attenborough.

How you doing? That's what we need is the Attenborough dude. The California Attenborough. Hey, bro. What you doing? Hey, this is Davey Attenenbro check out my video i feel like davy attenbro hangs out with trevor the naked herper there we go i think we have a nipper for our yeah for our future herping video trevor this is davy atttenborough coming at you from the wilds of Arizona. Check out this Willard eye.

There we go. I started listening to this podcast. It's been around for forever. It's comedy bang bang, but they do these stupid, I don't know, voices and personalities. They had a Davey Atenborough uh attenborough um mimic or whatever some guy that was like the he was he was like a 14 year old but he spoke just like david attenborough he's one of like their their family relatives it was hilarious but it's just like the guest on the podcast approaches the microphone. It was pretty good. Anyway, I've been listening to way too much of that.

Funny guys. Well, I don't know. Yeah, check out my YouTube page. Throw a couple more likes on there for the Wuladi. And maybe the sagebrush lizard too while you're at it. Yeah, pump those numbers. That poor

sagebrush lizard, do you know how he feels about himself right now yeah seriously come on this is how we validate ourselves there in the modern world i'm not so much concerned for myself too i just i'm concerned for the sage but he's looking at those numbers going yeah what's wrong with me he probably looked at that with me he saw that picture and he was like, duck lips. There you go. And then he was like looking at it and he's like, what the fuck? 30.

30? 30? Really? That's bullshit. And Willardy gets. Yeah. He's trying to eat me over here. And I get 30. He sounds funny.

His name sounds funny. That's right. Willardy. Willardy. The Willardy. Whatever. Yeah. Well, i don't know who who knows but i'm gonna keep throwing up some fun stuff you know here and there cool uh yeah well um you can check out my instagram page too it's the same same name jg julander uh throw up my i just pretty pretty much put pictures of reptiles and and birds mostly wild a couple captives thrown in here and there but

mostly wild stuff and uh chuck norris wins if you want to check out chuck's stuff on it's all over the freaking place it's all over over the map, man. You never know what you're getting, Chuck. It's a mess. It's a mess. It is. But it's fun. I like to keep up with Chuck, see what's going through his mind, you know, what's going on. You're one of the few who can still keep up with him, Justin.

I don't know about that. I can try. But you're going along at a pretty good clip, Chuck. Hard to keep up with you. It doesn't feel that way. All right. Well, get out herping. Go out and do some fun stuff. Wait. Oh, shoot. It's like right on the tip of my tongue, that really cool thing that I was going to report here. I'll have to figure it out anyway. All right. Well, I guess that's it. What a kind of a lame ending here, but we're going to give a shout out to the podfather. Get well, man. You need to breathe. Poor Eric. He's having struggles breathing. I think we need to like, you know,

figure out some lung donors at Carpet Fest and at least get him one good lung, you know, where he can breathe and not have some asthma issues. But hope you're feeling better, Big E. We'll see you in a week. Other than that, thanks to Moralia Pythons Radio For hosting our little show Our little wingding here And thanks for listening to Reptile Fight Club Catch you again later

Wow your hamster cheeks are huge Thank you.