Reptile Fight Club - Conventional Herp Wisdom Applied to Herping w/ Dustin Grahn & Steve Sharp

Episode Date: September 16, 2022

In this episode, Justin and Chuck are live from Arizona, and they tackle the topic of conventional herp wisdom as applied to herping with Dustin Grahn & Steve Sharp.        Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to the episode of Reptile Fight Club. I'm Justin Julander, and with me as always, Chuck Poland. Hello. Hello. We are coming to you live from southern Arizona, where we are herping for the weekend, the long weekend. And we've got some special guests in the car with us. So Steve Sharp, one of our oldest and dearest friends.

Steve, welcome. Thank you for having me i was really glad that steve was uh able to come on the herb trip i uh i mentioned that i was coming down here and he's like hey i might be able to make that i said that sounds really good and then finally let it slip that steve was coming on a herb trip that i wasn't invited on and as you all heard i invited myself and here I am. So when in doubt, bust your way in. Yeah. Yeah. Steve picked up Chuck on his way down and man, he got up at like four 30 in the morning and, and drove pretty much two. Oh, two in the one 30 in the morning. And, and drove straight down, picked up Chuck and then, uh, and then drove down over to arizona um and uh we met up so

i flew down and was picked up by our fourth guest here or our fourth person second guest whatever dustin gron dustin what's up how you guys doing and you uh will probably remember dustin from morelia pythons radio where he did an interview there but it's his first time on our podcast so we're happy to have him here and um i met dustin let's see a what a year two year year and a half ago or something went on the herp trip with the npr crew down to um tucson area and dustin showed us around and went out herping with us a day or two. And then in June we did another trip down here and we, we, uh, Dustin went on the whole trip with us. So that's been really cool to get to know him. And I, I really enjoy his herping

style. I think all of us in the car have a pretty similar herping style and and uh we're out here just uh getting it done find lots of stuff it's been really a good trip so far so um let's see what's what's the highlight of the trip so far dustin uh definitely price i i would agree yeah and and that one was found uh the first one was found by the resident rookie. I feel like that's a good way to pull your weight on the trip. So I'm happy I could help Dustin out and find that. That was super sweet. Yeah, it was pretty funny because Chuck heard it.

And Dustin's like, oh, I hear that. And he looked down. It was right between his feet. So, yeah, a little skid. It was a small one. You know, it's a small species anyway. Yeah. Yeah, it just kind of coiled up right between his feet.

So, it was. The rattlers are a little quiet. Yeah, a little hard to hear, but that was pretty cool. So, that was a lifer for Dustin and for for me and chuck yes steve was the only one that's found those before this is begrudgingly unimpressed no i'm kidding i'm kidding he was he was very happy so yeah it's uh but we've we've had a really good trip and we found a lot of good stuff so i don't know what's your highlight steve um I don't know. I mean, getting to see a willard eye, even though we didn't find it ourselves, that was pretty cool. Yeah.

So yesterday and today we knocked out all three of the montane species except the willard eye. As Steve mentioned, it was a bit of a cheat. There was one of Dustin's friends was herping in the area and he found it. So he alerted it to us and we got to check that out you know see that so yeah showed us his willardy his willardy thank you nipper um we told so dustin pronounces it will willardy as well and we told him he could only pronounce it that way if he did it in english accent because it sounds so proper it's correct with the trumpets we need eric here to do his wonderful nipper impersonation yeah yes you know nipper just

he he said it was just spot on perfect perfect english accent it makes him buzz yeah makes him muzz and buzz yeah buzz and mu. The buzz and muzz combo. But, yeah, I think definitely the Price Eye was a highlight. We actually saw two of them in this not too far from each other, so same area, which was, yeah, really cool. The other highlight for me, think was that really there was a really uh contrasty melosis black-tailed rattlesnake so it was a really beautiful snake that was fun um new another new species there we've seen a couple of species that night the hooded night snake or not the

hooded it's a described species oh Well, hooded night snake, yeah. Yeah, it doesn't have a species name at this time, I guess, according to the second edition of the Reptiles of Arizona book. But, yeah, that was a cool one. Steve found that on a little pea break. Where did you find that? I know. That was the one you found. Oh, the night snake, yeah.

Yeah, the night snake. Oh, that was the tantilla. Steve found the tantilla on the pea break. Yeah, that was cool. Yeah, that was the one you found. Oh, the night snake, yeah. Yeah, the last snake. Oh, that was the tantilla. Steve found the tantilla on the pea break. Yeah, that was cool. Yeah, that was really cool. Nice to knock out the little fossil orioles. Yeah, they're always kind of, it's hard to plan for those. But, yeah, Steve found a tantilla, yaki, yeah.

Yaki, black-headed snake. So, cool stuff. So, yeah, we've added a few new ticks to the list uh i one of mine uh kind of favorite ones was the colorado river toad i hadn't seen those in the wild so that was really cool to see uh colorado river toads and we saw many of them like i i think these guys got a little impatient because i kept wanting to stop and take pictures of all of them. But they're just really cool, big toads. I tried to keep Chuck from licking them, man. He just wanted to lick every one of them.

I heard that they make you high, so I wanted to find out if that was true. Please do not do that at home. We were just joking. Yes. You do not get high by licking toads even though homer simpson told you it that's happened all right well um i don't know i might it's the second take it's not as good as the first no definitely not we recorded like 15 minutes and it was like uh it was crap it was coming through the front microphone. So you couldn't hear us talking.

We were blabbing the whole time. But Steve's been on the... He's a toad licker now. Yeah, I know. So I guess today we're going to talk about conventional herper wisdom. If that is a good thing to follow or if you should kind of go against the grains, go against conventional herper wisdom. A few things kind of put that in my mind.

One of the things is the giant ball in the sky is shining brightly. There's a full moon tonight. I didn't plan the trip very well because there's a full moon. If you think such things matter. Yeah, exactly. But we found lots of great stuff, so that's been really fun. So I was also, you know, going back to the Shine Book, I keep blabbing on about the Shine Book, but he was talking about the fact that you couldn't necessarily apply research

from North American and European reptile species to Australian species, that they had some different things, you know, different environment, different conditions. Life is a little more harsh in, in Australia than it is in, you know, more, uh, easy going places in Europe and North America. So, uh, that was kind of a big part of that book or a big point of that book is to show how important his research was in regards to Australian reptiles. And I think he makes a good point of that. But I think there were also some things where I said, There's a lot of similarities between Australian species and species that we find out here in the west in the desert areas of Arizona and Utah. So that was kind of something I thought, let's chat about that.

And we are coming up to a checkpoint, so I don't know how interruptive this will be. We usually fly through these pretty quick. They usually just wave you through yeah why they won't see the legals that we have hidden under all my gosh shut up say that yeah no they probably have microphones on this guy's like come on dude it says 15, but... Well, that thing's telling me I'm going like 55. That's not correct. Okay, we're going to pause for a minute. How's it going, man? Good, you too.

Thanks. All right, we flew right through. We passed with flying colors. Shining colors? I don't think the colors... Despite the jinx that you put on us with that. I know, I know. Almost.

But... It's fun. All right, well, let's talk about conventional Herper wisdom. You want to flip a coin? Should we divide down the middle of the car? You and Steve versus me and Dustin? Yeah, I need a light. Oh, yeah.

All right. Okay. Don't... You want to let me you're gonna drop this is the point where i make okay the argument that justin is a control freak we'll let dustin call it since he's uh this is his first time on the car wait a minute you can't flip the point now i, I did it. You did it. Ah, crap. It is heads. What? Chuck wins. Chuck and Steve win. All right. All right.

What side do you want to take there, boys? Are we going to continue with our? Yeah. Okay. We'll take the con side or the. You can go against conventional Harper Wisdom and still have lots of great success. The conventional Herper wisdom is all bollocks. All right, you're on, man.

Maybe not all bollocks. Oh! Maybe not all bollocks. Stat sig, man. Stat sig. All right. Do you want to go first or... No, you guys go first.

Oh, big surprise. Yeah. Chuck deferring. Listen, I, no, you guys go big surprise. Yeah. Chuck deferring. Listen, I'm trying new things here. All right. Okay. Okay. So we're going to go, Dustin and I are going to go with, uh, following conventional Herper

wisdom can be a good thing, lead to success. Um, and you know, I think there's definitely lots of instances. I think this trip is, is, has some of those instances as a part of it. You know, we're down here during the monsoon. We've seen quite a diversity of species, and we are exiting soon. So Dustin is navigating. But we've seen a great diversity, and I think, you know, having the rains come on. We also saw that in June because we were there for one of the early rain events.

And that night that it rained a bit, we saw more, you know, that night than we'd seen up to that point. So it was a really productive night with a coral snake and a black-tailed rattlesnake and then mojave what else the banded gecko what else atrox yeah that was a good night that wasn't the same night as the bearded though right we saw that the previous night yeah that was the first night yeah so um i i don't know i mean if you're if you're're hitting southern Arizona, you probably want to go during some part of the monsoon season. And that can extend, you know, for a few months. So we're here kind of more at the tail end, would you say, of the monsoon? Yeah, stuff's starting to slow down a little bit.

But, I mean, we're still getting the rains, and with the rains usually come the animals. Yeah. And I don't know if the last few years have been very good as far as rain and moisture. So last year was pretty good. We got a really good monsoon last year, and I've just definitely seen more animals. A couple years before, we were pretty dry. We were in a drought for a few years. Things were a little tough. There were some slow nights out there, but you definitely still saw animals out yeah but that is as far as numbers go probably not a little less yeah a little less

and and that kind of goes along with uh shine's research as far as uh you know the uh rains rainy seasons and and the boon and bust in regards to prey species. If the prey species are doing well, then the animals are going to do well. And it's a little harder to make a living if there's not enough moisture or water. So the prey species usually decline in bad years and then the predators follow, which is very straightforward logic. So if you're going to come down to southern arizona you probably want to come when the rains are good and there's plenty of prey species and the snakes are doing great so i think we'd lead off with that one yeah i mean i i that's that's

solid i i mean i think you know thank you thank Yeah, sure. I mean, yeah, the wetter period or the greater accentuation of the monsoonal season definitely makes stuff move more. But these reptiles still have to do, still have to eat, still have to do what they do, even though it is a little bit drier and, and, uh, just because you're not, you know, just because you're not getting that really wet monsoonal season and you're not going to see tons of animals because that's statistically what you see. It doesn't mean that you won't have a good night, uh, and see, uh, a diversity of things or, or something that, that you didn't expect to see. Um, you know, I think bottom line is if you, but if you were to say, ah, well, it's been kind of a mild monsoonal season and you don't go out, then you're absolutely not going to find anything. So, um, you have to get out, you have to look, uh, and you know, not every night's going

to be a great night. Um, but you know, by and large, I think the, the more you look, the, the, the more you, and, and,, you know, you don't if you're not out there, you don't understand the behavior that's happening. So if you're finding things, maybe you're finding them under different conditions and maybe those conditions are keys for you or alter the do herping, uh, based on maybe monsoonal seasonal moisture. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I, uh, of course that you can still find stuff when, when conditions aren't optimal and who's to say what optimal conditions are. Yeah. Um, that's kind of a, a tricky thing. Well, speaking of optimal, we're trying to find the optimal road to turn on so we can get to the place where we're going to do some road cruising. So we've got Dustin and Steve a little preoccupied in the front seat,

trying to figure out where we're going. Oh, what kind of toad? I don't know. It's very small. We're going to go look at a toad. Yeah, speaking of moisture, you're probably not going to see a lot of amphibians if it's not very wet out. Most definitely not. Where do they hide out when there's...

Okay. What do we got? What do we have out when there's... Okay. What do we have here? Gentlemen's. Alright. A pause for species identification. I think it's a Mexican Spadefoot. Mexican Spadefoot? Do you want to pull it off the road?

Oh, crap. There's a car coming the other way too. It's going to get it. Bummer. oh crap there's a car coming the other way too it's gonna get it it's gonna get it bummer that's the downside of uh road cruising is you're gonna see oh they missed it oh good is the car coming chuck it does it on its own it does not do it your child protected it for me this is a common uh common thing oh there goes the coin but um this is a fun thing when the the doors lock and they don't unlock automatically or something is that another one up there you see that little is that a rock what was the rebuttal what were weling? I think the fact that you could find stuff if there wasn't... A cow chai.

Oh, it's a cow chai. We got a... No, let's check them out. We've got a cow chai and a Mexican spadefoot. That's pretty cool. Cow chai are beautiful, Vivian. They're really cool. They're sexually dimorphic.

Yeah. Pretty easy to tell apart. Look at that cute little thing. He's a... Oh, wait. Is that a couch eye as well? Hold on. They look very similar.

You think? Yeah, those are both couch eyes. Yeah. Okay, so two couches, spade foots. Wow, they're so pretty. They look pretty young, too. They do. They get a little bigger than that.

Here's a car. East in Texas. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. All right, let's go. Okay. So, yeah, I mean, you may find things. Well, I guess they need to hear us to make a good rebuttal.

No, no. No, let's just... Okay. Yeah. All right. Oh, man, that's the fun of road cruising. Yeah, you got to... I think it's better just to let it roll. You got pee on your hands now?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Let me see some of Steve's horrible hand sanitizer. Oh, that stuff. There you go. stuff yeah smells like a dirty old tire tire fire okay so so uh yeah you can find stuff when when conditions aren't great but i would argue that the number is definitely increased when... Numbers won't be there. Yeah.

And certain species won't be there. But at this, I guess, you know, to your point, you might see species that don't normally come out at, you know, in different conditions. Sure. So maybe some prefer to come out when it's a little harder, or that brings them out, or that drives them out, and they're out more often because it's harder to find yeah so yeah i guess that's uh that's something to your

point there but another toad there's a car behind us oh okay i'm letting them go by all right letting them pass don't hit any snakes is this super busy no not usually oh okay so we're not to the road yet all right now that's i i think uh her percon or conventional wisdom is a lot of times like i i think another point or if we can start a new point here do you want want to roll up your window? Oh, yes. Is that, you know, places to find stuff, right? A lot of people try to hide their places where they can find. Are those all toads? Yeah, they're all over the road.

They're weaving. Weaving toads. But, you know, where to find things. You know, we have a lot of cool, uh, um, advances these days, you know, we have iNaturalist or things where we can see where records are, are, uh, but it seems like a lot of times when you go out herping, there's crowds. Like last night we pulled into a spot and went to, went to go looking for certain snakes, and there was like three cars that made the turnoff right in front of us.

So it was like we had to follow these three cars, and we were just hoping they were going to the campground that was down the road, but of course they went right to the spot, and they were out there herping in the night. And I guess we don't know for sure if it was them because it may not have been them. But, um, when we went to look at some of the artificial covers on the board lines, there was, uh, stuff out of place or flipped in the wrong and not replaced. No, not put back correctly. So, um, you know, if you're going to the same spot as everybody else, you're going to have those issues. You're going to have problems.

But at the same time, it's because there's stuff there. Yeah. We did, I mean, granted, there was three other cars there, but we were probably the only people to find snakes that night. Yeah. Yeah. And that just goes to show that these places are so well-known, but you should go there because you're going to find these snakes. Yeah. They're well-known for a reason.

Yeah. I think the last several times we've been there we've found something yeah yeah and i mean i think also you know talking about how people maybe not aren't less forthcoming about uh giving up the spots that they hurt that's why because you have people who come in there and just fuck shit up and don't respect the board lines or the spot. It's not a shared resource unless it's well taken care of. Yeah, that was it. Okay. We see H-Hawks on this road, the Longhorns on this road.

We get a little more into the foothills. Okay. I think, you know, again, maybe more to your side of the argument, is that if a spot is well-known, it can actually lead to the destruction of the spot because, like, one of the areas we went to is well-known for pyros, the mountain kingsnakes back in the day. But they're very difficult to find these days because people went there because it was a known spot and they overcollected. And so now they're very difficult to find there.

Hey, man, you're helping out Chuck, sir. Oh, I know. Sorry. Okay, so. I need the help. It's all right, Dustin. He has to do this. Otherwise, there'd be no show. Yeah, the Kumbaya. Yeahumbaya the reptile Kumbaya club

Steve's not participating right now I'm giving him a hard time just stop I have a role to play just let it happen alright well what do you got Dustin

any points for our side following conventional wisdom um meaning i guess we kind of touched on conditions being right we go on temperatures temperatures yeah i mean yeah don't necessarily want to go out in the uh middle of the day when it's 110 degrees out but yeah you're not gonna find too much then even like diurnal lizards are kind of scarce when it's that hot but yeah and i think you know there's there's certain there's definitely certain governing factors where when you hit those upper temperatures one upper limits for temperature when it just becomes too dry when it just you know becomes it just, you know, becomes too wet. Um, you know, there's, there's those hard limits that when you hit those, yes, you're going to suck, but, but there's a lot in, in the middle.

And so I feel like there's, you know, uh, I don't want to say like micro climates almost to where, you know, um, not every area or, you know, the area you're in, if you say, oh, the conditions here are such, so it's not worth going out. Maybe there's something to that. You, from your experience, can kind of say, all right, based on what's here, I would guess this area is like this. Maybe it's not the best. Maybe there's something to that, but unless you really go out there and, and, uh, know what's, what's happening at that moment. Um, it's, it's hard to, you know, that's a, that's a hard thing to say. It's, it's not worth to do or, or whatever. Um,

yeah, I think for the most part, if you're going to go out herping, you're going to find generally, uh, speaking, you you're gonna find stuff more in the spring and in the fall um than in the middle of summer in the middle of winter you know but but also it depends on the species you're looking for so you need to know uh of course the area you're going to uh the species you're looking for kind of their natural history because um some species might be found more readily in the dry season or in the you know in the winter time like I think green tree pythons man like Matt Somerville and a few others went up to Iron Range and found like 20 green tree pythons you know they're just everywhere it seems and

other times of the year you go up there and you may be lucky to see one or two. So if you're kind of going in the right time of the year for that species, you're going to probably have better luck finding them. Is that to say that you're not going to see any on the wrong time of the year? No, and maybe that's okay to just see one or two rather than see 20. But I don't know, it's kind of fun to stop repeatedly for something rather than just once. And I think a lot of it's probabilities, right? By going at the right time of the year, you're increasing your probability. By going at the right temperatures or the right factors, you're increasing your probability.

Statsig. Statsig. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, but there's a lot in the margins for that. And so, you know, what is perfect conditions? Are you capturing, you know, are you capturing what those conditions are? What what causes species to move? Some things? Yeah, you know, maybe maybe there's factors that you're missing. Maybe there's, you know, maybe there's predator predation things happening that you're not capturing. So I think, you know, sometimes you just got to get out there and do. And if you have a, you know, you have a slow night, you have a slow night, but, um, maybe there's something to be gleaned, um, by going out in a

time that, uh, you, you, you may think that, uh, things won't happen for you or whatever. Yeah. And I, I think that maybe more, more applies to, uh, people who live in a certain area, like, Oh, snake, snake. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to, all right. um atrox safely removed out of the road he was uh not gonna sit still for pictures but uh really nice looking animal so all right dustin's got a good point yeah i mean a lot of people will say that you only that you'll only find like a specific species and like a specific habitat but oh that's a cow uh a lot of these animals are are generalists and they're gonna take they're gonna take advantage of any opportunity opportunity that they can like uh some some of the species we found this trip were supposed to be somewhere where they weren't like take the alligator lizard for example yeah that's a montane generally a montane lizard and we found that in a pretty low desert it's an owl oh yeah um i mean

there's cholla and mesquite trees and yuccas and the occasional oak but yeah really cool habitat to see the animal in yeah yeah where you wouldn't expect it and we also uh we we met up with uh bob ab uh bob bob ashley at the uh cherry cow desert museum and and got to chat with him for a bit he showed us around really cool guy but um we we were he was telling us a spot where you could find a certain species that were like really they're out there and're like, okay, now we need to go back there and look for those. But so you know, places you wouldn't expect them. And so I think, I don't know, this, again, might go back to your guys aside. And maybe I let you guys talk instead of me bringing up a point for you. But yeah, I think going to where you're Now, you made that point for them, right? I definitely did. I didn't realize it.

But if you go up in the mountains, you're going to find more alligator lizards. Yeah, that's for sure. If you're headed to the desert to look for alligator lizards, you're probably not going to find many of them. All right, way to turn that around, Dustin. Definitely some seriously displaced alligator lizards. Steve, you have any thoughts? Yeah, I think you just don't want to limit yourself based on other people's experiences or opinions.

Because a lot of that is sometimes people just say things based on things that they've been told by other people. So that's something else to keep in mind as well when you're making decisions about where to go. I think the best thing to do is just study things out yourself and learn that animal's natural history and where it's most likely to be found. But range extensions happen all the time, you know, and we find things in places that we wouldn't think they would be. Um, you know, it's like we were talking about the, the alligator lizard that was found in the, the last little bit of, um, of Sonoran desert that kind of creeps into that area, that little section of New Mexico. And, um, yeah, there's juniper trees, there's live oaks. Those are things that alligator

lizards are associated with, you know, with leaf litter. And, um, it makes sense that that lizard was there, but at the same time, we were, none of us were expecting to see that lizard there. So, um, it's kind of cool to find, um, find those things and, you know, it wasn't necessarily a range extension or something that was like publishable, but, um, at the same time, just learning where things are and learning terrain. Um, that's something Chuck and I have been talking quite a bit about, you know, making mental notes of when you find an animal, like what, what, what were the conditions when you found it? What was it doing? Was it under something? What was, how hot was it outside?

You know, like, kind of trying to create those mental benchmarks in your head if you're new to herping are important. Because even knowing how a lizard looks, like, if you go and look at a field guide, look at the pictures of the animals, look at how they're shaped, that puts a picture in your head um for things that could be difficult to spot otherwise you have at least the you know what the what the animal really looks like um you might not have that exact phenotype but you'll at least have a general idea of what you're looking for what it looks like on the road what it looks like exactly how it moves how it like when you see it dart away how where it went when it darted away so all of those things are important benchmarks to create in your head

if herping is something that you want to really invest a lot of time and energy into if you're just kind of walking lack lackadaisically through the through the desert not paying attention what's going on around you you'll miss a lot of stuff i mean and i feel like i'm kind of a rookie compared to you guys as far as herping but i mean would you say that that you know a lot of your experience with herping comes from seeing it knowing where it is and having that mental note so that it becomes after you do it over and over it becomes an automatic thing and you can almost call out what you're seeing or you know where to find things because you've had that recurring experience. And your repertoire of how to find it is much deeper and ever-changing, right? Environments are dynamic things that they're always changing. So, you know, trying, trying to find stuff and

maybe area areas that are similar, but not the same that, that were close to where, you know, but maybe it isn't, uh, somewhere where you've heard. Um. I think that that can be of benefit. And if you don't find it, then okay, maybe it's not working. Maybe try a different time. Maybe try a different temperature. Try different factors. And then when you find it, you say, aha, okay, maybe this is something. Do it again. Do it again.

If you keep finding it, maybe there's something to that. You know, you're increasing your statistical probabilities through repetition. Stat sick, stat sick. But I would also say that if you're going to, you're usually not building from the ground up. Usually you start herping on conventional wisdom. You know, you're going out with somebody who knows kind of how to find stuff and you're kind of learning from them and seeing like okay this is this is how I herp and this is when I go out and usually people who have seen most everything they kind of get that

idea and kind of know when to when to go out when the most productive times would be to go out and find it and you know when I come to an area like Southern Arizona, I, I, you know, listen to people like Dustin who live down here and who go out herping a lot and, you know, when's the best time to come, I'll listen to them. And for that answer. So I'm, I'm, you know, and, and once you've kind of been in their shoes or once you've lived down here or something, you might refine it from there and look for other areas or look for other conditions when you might find it out. Um, but like in a time like now that that can be expensive. So you want to maximize your time and base what you're doing on conventional herb wisdom because it usually has some, some, you know, facts behind it. Yeah, I completely agree there. I think you have to start somewhere

and, and the, the, the shared experience of somebody who's been out there and found it and done it, um, is invaluable. You know, it's invaluable. It's to, you know, you gotta, you gotta have, you gotta start somewhere. Yeah. That's simple. I think we're following some conventional herb wisdom now, aren't we, Dustin? Yeah. Dustin's been in this area a few times and this is the spot where he oftentimes will find, uh, some of our target species. So that would be really nice to find these cause I haven't seen them in the wild yet. Although we did release one when we got here. So that was kind of cool. So hopefully I'm not going to say it out loud in case we don't find it. I don't want to jinx it. So, but So, but, you know, there is a reason.

There is her per conventional wisdom. So, you know, when you rely on that. And a lot of it proves very true. Like, I mean, you know, when we were talking to Bob and he was, you know, kind of giving us, oh, try, you know, this spot, that spot. You know, those are spots are known for a reason. That's very helpful to get intel from somebody who knows the area very well. Did you guys have anything to add? I think it's important to acknowledge that and have a place to build from.

I mean, we're working off of field guides that take how much time oh yeah there's a insilience oh sorry there's a toad you got to check it out it's not just inside all right toad stop completed see if we can find something else um what were you saying uh yeah i'll steve oh yeah oh i was just saying i was trying to make a point about like field guides you know like we utilize field guides and there's a lot of energy and effort that goes into a field guide right like there's maybe in some cases hundreds of people, right, like gathering photographs, the people that did the sampling to figure out the range map, right? Like there's a ton of stuff that goes into these books, and the people that write them typically are sampling from friends and colleagues

and their traditional wisdom, their experience. But at the same time keep going keep going yeah that's just a piece of conker or something at the same time science and biology and what we know about animals

is always changing especially reptiles and amphibians as we study them more and we're able to study them in new ways, in different ways. We learn more about them and we document new behaviors all the time. You know, like I'm working with a lizard species at the zoo I work at, and we documented a behavior in the zoo with this particular species that's heavily studied in the wild it's critically endangered and um and is very very well studied and documented and no one had ever documented this

particular behavior until um this year in the field um no one and somebody just happened to catch photos of of what we had seen um on, because we have cameras filming a lot of the interactions when we pair our lizards together. This is on the blunt-nosed leopard lizard, but it's this really neat anti-copulatory behavior that females do to kind of roll out of an advancing male that's trying to grasp them to mate and when that female's unreceptive she'll kind of do a little flip and this has been documented in other curtified it's but it's never been documented in one of those leopard lizards so um it's kind of neat to see something in the field you know um kind of complementing things that we're seeing in the zoo. And I think, though, that it's just an example of something that we're always learning new information and new things.

And so conventional wisdom is always changing and being updated. I think that the trick is, and I guess for Chuck and I's side of it, is to challenge conventional wisdom. I think that we should be doing that continually. That's what science is. We go out, we test, test things and we, we learn new things all the time. And sometimes it's like, you know, if, if there's a conventional wisdom in Southern Arizona is don't go out when there's a full moon. We just saw a whole bunch of toads and then we also saw a western diamondback crossing the road um and that's again that's a well-known thing like don't go out during the full moon you won't see anything but um you know i see stuff when there's a full moon when i'm out herping so

yeah um and we just saw a bunch of stuff tonight so that's that's another one of those, um, examples that, you know, may or may not be, um, that one of those examples of like a folklore type of thing where somebody had a bad experience one time and that they never went herping on a full moon again. And so, um, there's a lot of that, that stuff that that's conventional wisdom that gets passed down and is unnecessary and deprives us of stuff if we follow it, you know. Yeah, and I think even very smart people can be subject to very unscientific conclusions sometimes based on that. You know, we're all very, very dependent upon our own results and our own personal experiences. So I think that can lead

us to biases. And I think what you said about being scientific in your approach to things, uh, really brings some validity to, because if you're going to challenge convention, you know, what, what is it, you know, what the things that went into a field guide, you need to have some, you need to have some substance to it. You can't just, uh, you know, have opinions that are contrary, very arbitrarily. Right. Yeah. I think that, you know, challenging conventional wisdom requires definitely experience and maybe the, the money or the, the will to do it because yeah, you have to put in some work to challenge that conventionalism because, you know, a lot of times to get a range extension

takes a lot of effort to see, okay, is there similar habitat close by? And, you know, especially with hard-to-detect species, I know that a lot of my herper friends in Utah will go out in different mountain ranges looking for tricolor snakes, you know, either the milk snakes or the mountain king snakes. And a lot of them had found, you know, these tricolors in areas where you wouldn't anticipate them to be based on conventional wisdom. So, you know, there can be some benefit to that. But it's difficult.

It's time consuming. And a lot of times you may not prove that to be the case. You may not find them in that mountain range. So that can be difficult to challenge in a lot of cases. And does require a lot of work. And I think when I think, you know, when, when I think about, see, I, I like to go to a, a lot of different places, especially like Australia to, to go herping. And, and if I'm going to fly all the way to Australia, I want to try to

maximize my thing. So I'm going to listen to experts. I'm going to follow that conventional wisdom. And maybe I've already made that point, but I think that's a, that's a very strong point for our side, but I think you need to start somewhere, right? Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, people who have had success that, that, that is repeatable and, and, uh, continuous, uh, is, is probably the best place to start. Yeah. Uh, and I think, I think a lot of what I, you know, Steve and i are kind of talking about is is stuff that's follow on to uh you know a fundamental start to to uh herping i i you know i and i i you know i think uh it is it is maybe more fun to discover for yourself, you know, to like, I don't know, when I did plan my trip to Australia, I did talk to a lot of people and I tried to get information or good places to start, best times of year to go over. And then I planned out the trip and we went over and, and just put ourselves in the area and we didn't find a lot of stuff. It was a really good and successful trip. And I was

really happy, but you know, I talked to, uh, uh, you know, a very experienced, uh, field herper in central Australia and he's, uh, Rex Neindorf. He runs the, uh, Australian reptile park. And he's like, Oh yeah, you should have come in December or January. I mean, the roads are just crawling with geckos. So it's like that all the advice I got was good advice and we still found a lot of stuff. But, you know, if, you know, I guess our goal was mostly geckos, then January would have been a maybe better time to come than October. So, you know, you, you live and learn, but we did see quite a few gecko species, but, you know, we missed out on some of the really cool ones like Amy and stuff. So there's definitely a reason to

go back and to go back at a different time. Um, Steve and I went on a trip to Western Australia and we did pretty much a very similar trip that my wife Heidi and I had done the previous year and Heidi and I went in October and Steve and I went in November and so it was interesting to kind of compare and contrast a very similar trip with different results in one area I think think, uh, Heidi and my trip was, was much more successful. We saw a broader diversity of species as well as

higher numbers of species. Um, when Steve and I went, we still saw a pretty good diversity, but there, there was only like one or two of each, each species. So it just wasn't as maybe hopping that night. And, and, you know, that could have been just a night to night variability. Um, we, you know, is there another, another toad? Okay. One sec. All right. False alarm. Um, I got to, to mess with these guys. It was a rock. So I checked it off and they thought i was throwing a toad um so yeah i mean it which you wouldn't do oh oh the other the other thing was you know the the conventional wisdom is that fog dam is like it has the highest concentration of of snakes and and you know in the world perhaps or at least in aust. And so, you know, you go to fog dam

and you're going to see water pythons. That's kind of the conventional wisdom. So we went there, um, on a trip in 2011. And, uh, one night we went to fog dam and we saw nothing. We saw maybe like a Slady gray or, or, uh, or a keelback or something and a few frogs so we saw something but like no water pythons and then we went back the very next night um conditions seemed pretty similar um and we saw you know very many water pythons we saw several and so it was kind of true to form the the second night versus the first night so and what is that know, is that something you missed? Is that just happenstance by chance? And that's, that's what I mean is like, you're, you know, it, it may, it may be random.

It may be something you're missing. It may be, you just don't know. So, but I would say law of averages, like if you go at that time of the year, you're and you go, you know, five or six times to fog dam, you're probably going to see a water python versus, you know, in the wrong season. It's going to be much harder to find them. That's not to say you won't find them in the, you know, the best times or the worst times. And you will find them in the best times. So I don't know if that makes sense.

But there's a little bunny rabbit did a little donkey kick right when the car was approaching him that was cool um anything to add there um yeah just get out i mean you're not gonna find snakes sitting at home you're not gonna find anything sitting at home just just get out try what you can do whatever you can try everything i mean the whole just eliminate variables like if you don't know something get out there early in the morning spend the whole day and just take notes on when you're seeing stuff and your herping will just get better and better from there yeah yeah for sure that's amazing advice yeah and I think, uh, that was another kind of big point in the shine book is they, they did try to, uh, with, with all the, you know, many,

many years of gathering data and having, uh, many different, uh, species that they were tracking in tropical Northern Australia. Um, they tried to draw conclusions. So they took all the weather information, all the, you know, the finds and record, you know, species that they found and recorded. And they tried to figure out what conditions resulted in the best activity. And they couldn't find anything that was significantly better than anything else. And so, um, there was really no conclusions to be drawn. So I don't know if that says it's just, just all luck and there isn't any conventional herper wisdom in that regard. Like there's no way to say if you go out when the temperature is this and the humidity is this, you will find X, you know? So I certainly

don't think that they're saying that it's all crap and, you know, you should just walk off into the, into the scrub and, and, you know, start looking because you'll find something. Um, I, I definitely think, you know, there's, there's, you know, certain natural history to be gleaned and certain things to be gleaned, maybe taking a rigid approach to how you, how you, how you herp is maybe detrimental. Yeah. And I guess, I guess maybe the more specific point is that, you know, for my experience, when we went one night and saw zero water pythons to the next night, when we saw several water pythons, there was no perceivable difference in conditions i mean we were there during the right time of year

the right season so following that conventional wisdom going back to fog dam was probably going to be good rather than bad um you know it's just kind of luck of the draw from there so same volume of sweet lady ddp um i don't even think i was drinking sweet lady ddp back then i hadn't discovered the choice of the sweet lady so but you know like dustin said put yourself out there you can probably draw broad conclusions maybe not specific conclusions between you know one day to another during good seasons, but getting out more and more is just going to increase your chances. And you know, there's, uh, like we've, we've discussed on the, what's that? Oh, another toad. Okay. Another toad. Stop.

Okay. Another false alarm, but, uh, is that a tarantula i don't know it looked oh something dark i don't know we saw a cool vinegaroon uh yesterday that was pretty vinegar room and uh they do smell like vinegar they do smell like vinegar dustin found that out he has a night does it still do your hands smell smell like vinegar? No, they smell like Schweez. No. He replaced the vinegar for the Schweez smell. Steve had a point. Yeah, I was just trying to make a point about not being too focused on. Oh, there's a, that's a toad. Not being too focused on, um, on all aspects of the can, you know, the conventional herping wisdom.

I think we should follow some of those things, obviously, because they're based on people's positive experiences. Um, but at the same time, not just letting those rule, um, your entire, uh, herping trip. I think, um, I, I, I'm thinking about what we all talked about today. Like we've heard so many different ways of where to look and how to find oxybellas. And honestly, it's just a difficult snake to find. And we were down there all day looking for oxy bells for for a good chunk of the day and we didn't see anything so um i think that uh everybody has their opinions and you know

go out and form your own opinions go out and figure out your own um your own ideas and um you'll gain those through going out and experiencing success. Everything is regional. Everything is going to be slightly different. You know, where I herped up near Phoenix, on the outskirts of Phoenix, is a little bit different than some of the areas that Dustin herps in. So it varies a lot, and honestly, like, you're not going to see anything if you're sitting at home like chuck was saying so um yeah just get out there and do stuff that's a very well said that's

i think the main point of this just get out there yeah do it just do it you said you would yesterday and the thrill i mean the thrill of of getting out and finding things. It's amazing. I don't know. I guess with my kids and my kids want to sit at home and my wife is an introvert, so she's not one to get out. But to get out and to have experiences with your herping buddies and get out in nature and experience things experience things. And it's just, you know, do it. I don't know what else to say. No, I think, I think, uh, hopefully we contained a little bit of that because it is fun to get out and herp and the excitement of, is that something, is that nothing, you know, is, is that a rock or is that a toad or is that a snake, you know? Um, it's, it's a lot of fun. And, you know, uh, I, I, I also like, you know, the thrill of discovery on your own, finding things out for yourself, exploring new places, um, can be, be really rewarding. So anything to add, Dustin?

I mean, you don't even need like herping friends. Just take, I wrangle my non-herping friends to go out all the time and they still have fun. Especially when you see a cool snake, like they get all excited just as much as I do. Yeah. just take i wrangle my non-herping trends to go out all the time they still have fun especially when you see a cool snake like they get all excited just as much as i do yeah yeah that's a great point i mean getting getting others excited about it and so they're thinking less negatively about reptiles and kind of seeing that excitement and fun i mean you know there's a reason i guess pokemon and things like that are exciting exciting because they want to try to find everything and collect them all.

So I guess you can apply that here, too. Except the collection part. Unless you're a dirty, dirty collector. Sorry, inside joke. All right, well, I guess we'll end it here. We just wanted to throw something on. Yeah. Yeah.

It was good. It's always hard to bottle that, but yeah. Hopefully you enjoyed listening. Where can the folks find you two? Dustin, where are you at? You can follow me on Instagram at gecko.sphere. Just message me if you want to talk reptiles or herping or anything. Cool.

Steve? Yeah, I mean, I'm not on Instagram a ton or Facebook a ton, but those are both places you can get in touch with me. But my Instagram is at mindfulherp, and then just stevesharp on Facebook. If you're interested in some aspects of zookeeping and just reptile photos, that's kind of what I post about from time to time. But again, not super active on social media. So be patient if you send him a message.

That's right. I'm on Instagram, JGJulander. Check me out. Also Facebook, Justin Julanderander Australian Addiction Reptiles as well good times yeah I'm on Instagram at Chuck Norris Wins and you can find me under Chuck Poland

on Facebook alright well thanks for listening to Reptile Fight Club from the field from southern Arizona we'll catch you next week for another episode. Schwing! Don't you mean schweez? Thank you. Outro Music Bye.