Reptile Fight Club - Do Ball Pythons make a good first snake?

Episode Date: October 8, 2021

In this episode, Justin and Chuck are joined by Dominique DiFalco and Kendra Westy of Puget Sound Pythons.tackle the topic of "Do ball pythons make a good first pet snake?"Follow Dominique DiFalcoFollow Kendra Westy Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to the MGR Network. All right, welcome to another episode of Reptile Fight Club. I'm Justin Julander, your host, and with me as always is Mr. Chuck Olin. How you doing? I think I'm doing all right, man. It was a little bit of a long day today, so trying to recover, but I had to do some fun little mouse surgeries today so that was oh wow for a while so it was like riding a bike i guess i got you know yeah came back as i started doing it but uh i'm glad we had a practice run before we did the uh so this was a toxicity study before we did the actual antiviral study so that who was the mouse who got the practice run well no i'm

like it was it was a small study to look at the tolerability of the drug so yeah that makes way more sense good times good times yeah how about you what's going on with you man yeah same work was crazy my uh my boss uh is going out of town. He is heading to Hawaii with his, uh, soon to be fiance. So, um, yeah, so that's super cool. Glad for him. But, uh, yeah, I have, I'm, I'm having to brief like the production director and all this stuff. So it's like, it's, it's a big to do and, you know, it's always a calamity where I work. So having to be responsible for the calamity at, at, you know, to the production directors of do and, you know, it's always a calamity where I work. So having to be responsible for the calamity at, at, you know, to the production directors of pain, but you know, whatever, good times.

Right on. Right on. Yep. Well, we've got some special guests today, so we'll we'll kind of skip a lot of the upfront chatter and get them on here. So you mean I don't have to lose a coin toss today? That's awesome. Yeah, that's probably good news for you, man. Yeah, it is. No, it is. All right. Well, Dom and Kendra, why don't you introduce yourselves? I'll go first because alphabetically I'm first. Hey, guys.'m Dominique DeFalco of DeFalco Reptiles. I'm so incredibly nervous. I don't know why, but I'm very excited. So thanks for having me on. Yeah, no, we're happy to have you here. So what kind of space do you occupy in the reptile

industry? Well, as far as what I keep, I keep a lot of Morelia. I do keep some ball pythons and then some different crested geckos. But the big thing that I do in the reptile hobby is I'm really passionate about getting more women involved and connecting women who are already in the hobby. So that's kind of my little niche that I fill. And then, you know, the animals are there, too. That's awesome. That is awesome. Yeah, that's we were talking a little bit about that because, you know, we were at the Anaheim show. We were going up to people and ask them if they wanted to be on the podcast.

And I don't know if it's because we're a couple, you know, 40 somethings walk around asking these younger girls to be on a podcast. And they kind of like get away from me. Get away. I don't know what the deal is. But, yeah, we couldn't get many women to be on the podcast, but we're very happy to have you two here today. So thank you. Thanks. Yeah. We're, we're happy to be here. Kendra and I were both excited, nervous, but excited. I don't know why you're nervous. Our two listeners will be very happy to hear you guys. Listen, if I haven't chased them off by now, you're good. You're good. That's reassuring. So thank you. That's two more listeners than I have though. So

well, my daughters are listeners. So that's the two people actually. So that's cool. My, my daughter's very jealous. She wants to be the co-host. So she keeps telling me to ditch Chuck and let her be on it. She's a very enthusiastic 12-year-old. I thought your kids liked me. Oh, they love you. Oh, my gosh. Not if you're in their way to being a co-host. Apparently not.

She's welcome to come on my show whenever. I'd love to interview a kid. I think that'd be fun. I got to get signed parental consent though because i curse a lot yeah that might be a little shocking to her yeah all right well kendra how about you welcome yeah uh so kendra westy of puget sound pythons um my place i guess in the in herpetocultures, I'm a keeper and breeder. This is a kind of a joint project or joint business venture with my fiance, Jeff.

We both do this. We keep a lot of different species. I can't really label all of them. I don't think we have enough time. But, you know, I think we're, I think we're most known for, for our Leasis collection. We have, you know, we have the Duns, which is not something a lot of people have. We have now a 1.2 group of Apidora. We just got our second female in today, so there should be a video out on our YouTube channel. I saw that, yeah. Yeah, so, yeah, we kind of dip our toes in a little bit of everything, mostly pythons.

We have a couple boyids, and we have a gila, and some other, like, we have a couple boyiga and things like that. But, yeah, we just keep a lot of things that are kind of uncommonly kept. We obviously do have ball pythons, too, because that's definitely a good seller. But, yeah, yeah, it's a fun time we it's because it's the two of us it works out really well that we're able to keep a lot of species so that would be kind of dangerous though i would think if you're both into it and excited oh it is yeah absolutely it can be i know my wife is like uh you sure you can afford that you sure you need another animal like uh so it's you know

kind of a good balance that way i don't know if she was really into it like yeah go for it go for it i'd be that could be really dangerous trouble yeah yeah well i think that's the that's the kind of the nice thing about it is because like we both have our own interests it's like we can kind of keep each other uh keep each other in balance when it comes to like those sorts of things um except for if it's like a surprise, we want to surprise the other person with something like, Hey, you have a box of FedEx coming today. Check that out. I can honestly, yeah,

I can honestly say I've never gotten a gift of reptiles from my spouse. So that's pretty cool. That sounds pretty cool to me. My wedding present was a Nile monitor by my wife. It looked kind of like a, like a parenti. So he'd love that. So she got a Nile monitor. I'm like, Oh, it's the thought that counts. That was a very nice thought. And I had it for quite a while.

It was not a very happy little monitor. No, they generally are not. Yeah. And it's great that they sell them for, you know, 50 bucks at the retail stores, right? What a great pet. All righty. Well, are you guys ready to fight? I'm always ready to fight, Kend so so our topic tonight is uh do ball pythons make a good first pet snake i think this is a

really good uh topic for for. So I'm curious to hear what, what you got here guys and what kind of arguments we're going to hear. So, um, as, as is tradition on the reptile fight club, we're going to flip a coin. So, um, let's see who, who do we have call the coin toss? Who wants to do it? It's a wedding present. I'm broke. Wow. That's so nice of you. How very nice. Don't chuck this coin toss, Kendra. It's actually tails. So you win the coin toss.

That means you get to pick your side. Wow. So I did the opposite of what Chuck did last time, I think. Yeah, you did. No, you did. You won. That's a good way to win. Yeah, it is.

Think of what Chuck would do and do the opposite. Oh, well, I'm sorry, Dom. I'm going to go with the pros on this one. Okay. Thank God. All right. So Kendra will be defending the side that ball pythons do make a good first pet and we'll have Dom go the negative side. They do not make a good first pet.

All right. So since you won the coin toss, Kendra, you get to either defer and let Dom go first or you can go first. Ooh. Ooh. I'm going to let Dom go first. I want to hear her arguments. That's a good strategy. That's the one we usually adopt.

So, all right, Dom, the floor is yours. Let's hear what you got. All right. Can you make an opening statement or kind of, you know, get the ball rolling and then we'll let Kendra kind of have time to rebut that. Cool. Okay. So I'll just start that. If you don't know who I am, my start in the reptile hobby was actually just a few years ago.

I'm relatively new. I'm open about that. And I got my start in actually reptile rescue. So I've been working for a reptile rescue for the last few years. And for the last two years, I've been our intake and adoption coordinator. So I've kind of, you know, gone between the two. And if there are two things that are the most common coming into our rescue, first is bearded dragons. Second is ball pythons, usually normal ball pythons. And I think that that is very indicative of impulse purchases,

bad husbandry and things that lead a lot of people to giving up their pets. I think it's important that I like throw in right now that I obviously keep ball pythons. I totally appreciate their place in the hobby and that they do introduce a lot of people into the hobby, but as a greater hobby as a whole, and as people who are as into herpeticulture as we are, I think it's important that we educate people that this isn't necessarily the best pet for everyone. And you can just look at the shelters and the vet offices and the pet stores that are taking in unwanted animals every

single day to tell you that. So I'll pass it over to Kendra if you want to give your first statement. All right. Kendra, what you got? All right. Well, thank you for that. I can kind of roll into that whole adopt not shop motion. With that being said, there are a lot of animals that may need homes. I think with ball pythons in particular, to your point, you know, they do, there's a lot of people who have them. And secondarily, because there's a lot of people who have them, that means that there's a lot of knowledge out there. So even if, you know, if somebody does impulse buy, there are resources available to them. You know, social media,

we have a lot of forums, there's online sites, you know, much more than there was 30, 40 years ago. So yeah, I think, you know, yes, there is a lot of them, but because of that, there's a lot of knowledge out there. There's a lot of people who are keeping them. And so I think that's why they do make good prospects, even if it's something that, you know, you're not necessarily, you know, a lot about, there's resources to help educate you in that. All right. So I'm going to counter that. Can I counter that? No, definitely. Yeah. I think one of the biggest problems is that you don't hold any punches back, right? I also don't want everyone to think I'm negative.

I'm just passionate. Okay. No, you got to defend a side. It's not about, no, no one's going to think that you do what you got to do, girl.

Everyone loves you. It's okay. Good. Okay. So I think one of the biggest things that you said is that there is a lot of knowledge out there and there's a lot of people who keep them, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there's a lot of good information or good keepers. I think to look at the average person who has a ball python compared to the collective whole of the hobby taking in people who are

working with more difficult species, people have been doing it for 20,000 years, all of these like people, people on this call who know their shit and know it better than a lot of other people out there to assume that the average keeper of a ball python knows what they're doing is just inaccurate and then also looking at that there is a lot of information out there but it's gatekept by a lot of arrogance a lot of uh drama that happens within the ball python community and then also the information varies from source to source some people are saying that tubs are the way to go because they're great for for humidity and it makes them feel

secure other people are going to argue that you need a four foot by two foot by two foot enclosure and for the average person getting into it and trying to sort through all that information it's incredibly confusing and can lead to a lot of doubt within their own keeping right off the bat while starting. So it kind of as a follow-up to that, Dom, if you could maybe identify a couple things where maybe husbandry might be improved for anybody listening that might be wondering if their care for a ball python is reasonable. Yeah, I think that's, sorry. Yeah, I think that's great. So I think it, you know, a good thing is that there is a lot of ways to keep ball pythons. But I think with any animal

you take in, whether it's your first or your 50th, you have to recognize that the animal that you have is different than any other animal in your collection. You cannot treat everything the same way. So you may have to adjust your keeping to adjust the animal you have. So for me personally, I keep my ball pythons in a rack system because I think it's convenient. It holds humidity really well, which I struggle with in my animal room. But I also use 42-quart racks for any size animal until they get too big for it. So I'm putting hatchlings in there, and then I'm also putting sub-adults, adult males, all of that into the same size tubs. But I've recognized with some of the animals that I have that they didn't do really well. So I'm moving back down to a 16 quart and they started eating right off the bat.

So I think one of the biggest things getting into ball pythons and getting into the hobby in general too was finding a couple people who align with your perspective in general in keeping and troubleshoot with those who may have a better understanding of your particular animal or the species that you're working with. So talk to a good breeder, go through a good breeder. And if you didn't buy through a good breeder, say you did make a Craigslist purchase or a pet store purchase, reach out to someone who's been doing it longer than you and pick their brain. Join a couple of Facebook groups, see where you kind of fall into that. And then you can find people who are doing it successfully like that. Yeah. It seems like, like local people, local to

you are more apt to help and have probably better information because they have similar, you know, environmental conditions to yourself. So yeah, that's great advice. Yeah. Thank you. All right, Kendra, did you have anything to respond in that regard? No, I absolutely agree with Dom there, you know, because they are so, I don't want to say versatile, but they can be, you know, they can be kept in a variety of environments, if you will, you know, trans and closure rack systems. It's to a point, you have to know your animals, you have to know what your limits are, you have to understand the animals and everything that you're putting into them. But with that being said, you know, they're, they are a very hardy species comparative to others, right? And so I think that's why it does, it's helpful if

you are learning, you can, you know, kind of do your checks and balances and try different things with this species versus maybe something that's a little more temperamental. I guess they're kind of more forgiving is what you're. Yeah, yeah, they can be. Definitely, you know, not to the extreme, like, you know, you know, but, you know, if you don't, for example example for like if you comparative to like a white lip if you don't leave out water or have fresh water for it available 24 7 you know that animal is not going to die right away versus a white lip if you don't have water for it you know for a day it's you know it might you know start to start to wither away um and i think that's you know to that it makes it helpful for people who are getting into the hobby, who are new at keeping reptiles, especially snakes in particular.

It's helpful for an animal to be a little more forgiving because you're going to make mistakes and you're going to learn, you know, and hopefully you don't have to learn the hard way with the animal dead at the end of the day, you know, I think I'd be in trouble with the podfather if I didn't put out the, you know, student of the serpent con concept, you know, if you pay attention to your animals, you're going to do better with those. And that's, I think that's what you guys are both on the same page there with that. Yeah. All right. Back to you. I'm going to argue kind of something you said, Justin. So I think, um So I think you do need to know your animal, obviously. But one of the issues with ball pythons is that notoriously they go on food strikes. They are called the pet rock for a reason. And with a lot of other species, going off food and a lack of movement are two big things you'd look for as abnormal behavior if your animal was sick.

And you really don't have those indicators with ball pythons. A lot of times, especially with the rescue background, I'm going to pull that card again. We get, oh, my animal is sick. And we get it at the very end of the sickness because not a lot has changed outside of like weight loss, but they'll be like, oh, but it was on a feeding strike. And that happens with ball pythons, which it does, which is another negative. And so I just think it isn't the most intuitive species to learn with because of those factors. And also one thing too is we should look at whether having an animal that is lower maintenance is the best introduction because is it going to teach complacency in your keeping or is it going to teach you to be on your toes more? All right, Kendra, you might need to come to

my aid there. Come to my defense. She took a swing at me. It was a good one too. I like that. I know, right? Fair, fair, yeah. Oh, man. How do I rebuttal that? I really don't have a really strong argument for it other than with the low maintenance that it does. I mean, I can see your point where someone can be complacent or get complacent. But if we're talking about a pet animal, a pet ball python, I would assume and I would hope that if it's a pet, people aren't getting complacent with that animal. They're treating it just like their dog or their cat, right? They're handling it on a daily basis. They're paying attention to their animal, learning about their animal. And if they're willing to

learn about their specific animal, then they're willing to learn about the species as a whole. And learning about those food strikes, learning about, you know, the potential for stress, you know, learning the do's and don'ts with that species. So that's all I got really on that. I think that's very, yeah, thank you. I think you came to my aid very nicely. All right. So I guess let's maybe discuss some of the aspects that maybe, and maybe I'll turn it back to you, Kendra, some of the aspects that make them a good first pet you know, point maybe you haven't brought up yet. Yeah. Um, well, I mean, there's a couple I can think of off the top of my head. Um, one being availability, um, because they are a commonly kept species. That means demand is there. That means the market's there. Um, and with that market, you know, with ball pythons in particular, they come in a array of colored morphs and with that being said they also come in an array of financial range so you can you can buy your normal or you can adopt your normal for you know 25 under

25 bucks or if that's something that you have a little more experience with and you're looking at breeding potentially you know it that ranges up to uh well beyond ten thousand dollars so whatever you know however deep your pockets are there's there's an avenue for you um uh i mean there's there's a couple other things you can think of like uh don was saying that they're they're kind of like this boring you know they don't move a lot whatever um i think that makes them a great educational animal. They're not going to be, you know, super jumpy or bitey, you know, especially if they're on kids that might be a little sensitive to, you know, that stigma and that fear of snakes, something that's going to move quickly at them. They're not, they're going to be, you know, it's just

going to hinder that ability to get over that fear, right? You know, with, I guess, with that availability, again, is it comes to a lot of people have them already. So there's a lot of people like, I know at least like, four other people within like three blocks of me that have a pet ball Python. And they asked me all sorts of questions about them. And I'm like, Oh, this is this is how I care for them. This is you know, So it's kind of, because there's so many people who have them, it makes a good education for kids in particular. They are the future of herpetoculture and caring and educating those kids about these animals in general, I think is really important. And if that does start with a ball Python, I, I, I don't think it really

matters what animal we start them with, as long as it's something that they can learn from and they can, they can really enjoy. And I think ball Pythons bring that to the table. All right. That's an excellent point. You got any rebuttal for that? Kendra's making me sound like a real jerk over here. I think one of the things you said, and this is one of the things that comes up most often when you talk about ball pythons being a good first pet is the, like that there's little to no financial barrier to get into ball pythons, which I think is a double-edged sword because yes, it does encourage people to get into the animals that we all love. And, you know, to buy an animal for $25

is like hell yeah $25 animal and it's like okay but that's $25 cobra food sometimes you know you're not necessarily getting a high quality animal from the best person or from the best supplier and then you can look at like the supply chain that goes in the big box stores and all that shit so I won't go into that but I think also one of the things that's brought up is, yeah, you can buy an animal from $25 to $10,000. It puts this idea of some sort of monetary return into getting into ball pythons that I think you really don't see with other species because ball pythons are really a species that you can feed as quickly and as fast as you possibly can, as much as you can, and they're breeding within the year. And that's not necessarily the best because we're not paying a lot of

attention to the quality of animals that we're producing and the market is getting oversaturated. And the odds of you hitting that $10,000 animal with your $25 animal are next to none. And I think having that mentality in people's heads that this is a money-making scheme can take a lot of what we've worked for as a hobby out from right from the beginning. Oh, go ahead, Justin. Oh, I was just going to say, it seems like that's kind of how herpetoculture that has taken that turn over the last decade or more of kind of kind of that pyramid scheme. And, and it really is kind of a detrimental thing, kind of saying, Ooh, I want to get into this to make

money rather than I want to get into this because I really like this snake, you know? And, and I mean, obviously ball pythons are popular for a reason. Um, and you know, the, the different colors are fun and stuff, but again, you know, just kind of that warning, like don't equate animals with money. You know, the, the best way to become a millionaire in the reptile industry is to start with 2 million, right? That's how it works out, but yeah, go ahead, Chuck. Yeah. So no, I think you guys are hitting on some really like touching some really good points here. And I think, you know, the mutations and the morphs around ball pythons are kind of what you're getting into. And I kind of have heard a little bit of the touch of both sides of that. I mean, I think, you know, people

who, uh, have a normal ball Python that they buy cheaply and ends up throwing it away. And maybe they, maybe that's because they become interested in that next thing or whatever. Maybe, maybe touch a little bit on if you have thoughts about the plus or minuses around the morphs and mutations and some of those effects. Can I be positive for a second? Yeah. Cause I do, I do just want to say that I do think that is one of the most incredible things with ball pythons. That if nothing else, it is such an incredible teaching tool for the rest of the hobby about how genetics work. Because most people who are looking to breed even different species in the future are looking to ball pythons to understand like allelic compounds. I don't even know if that's a thing, right?

Like HETs to learn all of that stuff. And so I do think that's a huge positive but then on the counterpart of that is we're getting to the point in the hobby where i've had conversations with my ball python keeper friends and i am a ball python keeper i'm not gonna hide that fact where i i was at daytona earlier this year and i had a conversation with a guy who told me he is no longer buying anything that has less than five hats oh my god and in any other species that is like snobby elitist thing and I'm a I'm a green tree python keeper I know snobby elitist in that you know so I just think that that's a big thing that we need to worry about is we are getting to the point where you're almost playing Dr. Frankenstein with these animals and paying little regard to potential complications down the line. You know, in the last year we've seen like eyeless animals being sold for like large sums of money.

We've seen all of these genetics come out that maybe have weird mutations or the duck bills or, you know, the wobble. And I don't want to speak poorly of anyone who's producing anything with spider, but like you say the word spider in a ball python Facebook group, and just all hell breaks loose. So I think because of the rate that we're moving with these different morphs, while it is incredible, it may have a detriment down the line to the quality of animals that we're producing, especially at these incredible price tags. Kendra, you want to respond to that? Not in a positive like to her point, like a lot of different species, you know, like carp pythons are a really great example. We have genetic lineage of, you know, mom, dad, grandpa, grandpa, you know, on both sides going for generations.

Ball pythons don't have that because I think to Dom's point, they've moved so quickly. And they're just so, you know, it, it is, I don't want to say that I'm trying to be positive, but like, it is one of the concerns I do have just as a ball python breeder in general is, um, we do move really quickly with the species and, you know, we do have a lot of, uh, genetic defects that we haven't in, in our own community. We haven't really snuffed out. We still have people trying to hit panda pides, the super black pastel,

which is obviously gonna cause duck billing and kinking and all sorts of things. People still try to hit for that super spider, that all white snake that's dead out of the egg. And I don't understand why we still do it when we know that there's gonna be complications or issues or the potential of dead animals at the end of the day um i don't know if it is kind of that elitist thing like well i did it you know because i could and i don't like that i don't think that as a community that you know we need to really snuff that stuff out

i in our own communities and in within our local and beyond, because I don't think that's right. But to kind of spin this into a pasta, sorry, I know I'm going down a rabbit hole. With all of that genetic lack of variance, I should say, because everyone's doing it, I think for new breeders getting into it, it is very overwhelming. And so I know when I was first, like, I waited at least five, six years before I even attempted to breed because I was like, had the ideas like, yeah, I'm going to do this. This sounds like a good idea. But then I was just seeing so many other people doing it already. I was like, okay, well, that's great, but I'm not gonna be able to leave my mark if this is something I want to do.

So how do I do that? And so I took a really long time to really think about, okay, if this is a project I want to get into, who else is doing that and sourcing my animals from those particular breeders and trying to be thoughtful about, okay, if I get this animal from this person, you know, it's hep for this. If I get this animal that's, you know, that's recessive for this, I'm going to pair them and, you know, like try to at least build a little bit of a lineage there and keep things separated, not buying like brother, sister animals or whatever. For new people who do want to get into this, it's super easy, you know, just buying a single gene codon or incomplete dominant animal and just being like, oh, look, I produced a bunch

of pastels or cinnamons. It's like, great, cool. Now that you've done that, what are you going to do with them? And I think because it's so hard to get rid of kind of the quote unquote easy stuff, um, that is kind of pushing. I want to say it's pushing people away from breeding, but I know it's not, but I want to say it is, but yeah, it might be a good thing if it's pushing people. Cause I mean, I think think the cost of these crazy morphs that were like $20,000 and $30,000 animals are now very affordable. A couple hundred bucks and you can get just about any really nice looking morph you want. So I'm hoping that will push more people out of thinking about breeding them to recoup their investment because it was only a, you know, $200 or something rather than 20,000. And I understand, I mean, if you're spending $20,000 on a snake, you're definitely going to try to breed that snake. And, but if you're spending

200 and you just want a nice looking pet, Hey, that's great too. Yeah. But I mean, don't you think that the market's kind of tiered a little bit? Those people who are doing five trait mutations, they're not in the same category anymore as that person doing single or double trait mutations. You know what I mean? and like how on top of it and how hard it is to get some of those like front front end uh you know tip of the spear genetics that's going on is probably not the average for the average person you know what i mean yeah yeah i mean we have our you know we have our pet keepers we have our general keepers we have you know our hobbyist breeders and then we have like our breeders you know people who are doing this on a day-to-day in and out you know this our hobbyist breeders. And then we have like our breeders, you know, people who are doing this on a day to day in and out, you know, this is their business. This is their lifestyle. They're producing as many animals as it can, uh, you know, to wholesale or whatever, to recoup funds,

to go to shows, you know, sell out. Um, yeah. So you almost have multiple tiers even in a ball Python market, which is kind of interesting. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And it just, yeah, it depends on, and I don't know really where that that that line falls for a lot of them i just know that like you know like i'm not i'm i wouldn't consider myself at a top level breeder because this is this is fun for me this isn't like i care about every single animal that comes in and out of my out of my home i don't this isn't a big money maker just kind of a bonus if that makes sense yeah dom you want to respond i see you yeah absolutely i really want to respond to this one no please apologize i love hearing you talk okay um i think one of the big things that i've noticed specifically with us chatting and then

also like talking about this topic in general is that my rhetoric and Kendra's rhetoric, we are almost apologetic for ball python keeping, especially when we're in these different circles. And I think that's true to what you said, Chuck, where it was like, there are these tiers of keepers. And I only keep, I only keep animals that have three genes, which in any other species, if I said, yeah, I've got a three gene animal over there. I want to see it. They'd be like, fuck. Yeah. I

want to, uh, heck yeah. Shoot. Heck yeah. You're good. Let it fly. I just feel bad. Oh my God. Don't listen to this mom. Um, she doesn't care. Okay. But I like, and any other species, if you had a three gene animal, like they'd be so excited to see it. And you'd want to show that off in ball pythons. If you have a three gene animal, it's like, Oh yeah, I had that 10 years ago. What do you got now? And I think that is a big deterrent is because you see these big names in the

hobby and we put them on a pedestal and there's this like, like there's a absolute hierarchy and it's hilarious because you see it you physically see it at shows you go to a show you know who the ball python people are you know who they're crowding around and you can't talk to that person and i think that that mentality within this side of the hobby can be really detrimental even to people who have been in it for a while like myself i have a ball python project kendra you have ball python projects i would put a lot of money on the fact that there are still people at shows you would not go up and introduce yourself to because you don't deem yourself worthy which is effed up because you're worthy and just i love you bye

that's awesome yes you you guys are definitely both worthy. And I think that the fact that, that there is an elitist, I mean, there's, there's a bit of an elitist every, you know, I, I think Justin and I talk about how there's like circles for reptiles. And it's so funny that like, maybe Justin and I are known a little bit in the carpet circle, but if you go outside of that circle, nobody knows who the fuck we are. Nobody, nobody. And I think it's a little that way. And it's interesting to see how stratified ball pythons are in that to me because carpets aren't nearly that stratified, right?

And it's kind of silly when it gets to that point because you're like, well, is this high school all over again? Like the rich kids are the cool kids or the top ball python people are the best like weird. Right. And I think one of those things too, specifically within ball python circles or like let's look at green trees in general. Green tree pythons, that's what I started with. They are known as being a snobby part of the hobby. I'll joke about it and everything. But if you get your first green tree and you're keeping it well you are part of the group you are invited to the like facebook groups you're invited to the dinners at tinley you are part of the group if you went into like the biggest ball python group and you're like hey guys look at this normal i just got off craigslist you you're laughed at. You know, it is. And I think that we can try to equate our small circles to ball pythons,

but it's like looking at a pebble next to Mount Everest. Like it's just, they're not the same hobby at that point. It really is becoming like a totally separate hobby from that, that we participate in most. Do you feel like that that disconnects that that disconnects, you know, some of the ball Python or the some of the upper echelon of the ball Python community from the rest of the reptile community like that, that it kind of detracts from from the community at large when it gets into situations like that? I think it can because I think if you look at, you know, a US ARC auction, and I love that people participate at US ARC auctions,

I think it's great. But who is throwing down $20,000 for like a random painting or for something small that doesn't really seem to have much value? It tends to be the ball python people who, it's a game. And this isn't, and once again, I don't want to shame any ball python people who it's it's a game and this isn't and once again i don't want to shame any ball python people or act like i'm like i disagree with your tactics it is just it is it's like me playing like a slot machine on my phone or at the church festival versus the high rollers

in vegas like i cannot get there and i think a lot of people make it seem like, oh, you'll get there one day, just work hard, get those animals. It's just not realistic for the everyday keeper. Yeah. Well, and, and, and again, you know, should it be, you know, I mean, I think there are enough, you know, really high quality ball Python breed, like I kind of got out of it and didn't pay attention for a while. You know, I, I, we, we were being Ben Morrill, we were business partners and we were really into the ball Python morphs and Ben still, he's producing some amazing stuff, but I kind of got out of it once we split up the business and I didn't pay attention to ball morphs for a while.

And then like I saw, I think it was Justin Kabilka put up some crazy looking ball Python. I'm like, what is that? And so I got back and I'm like, what is that? And so I got back and I'm like, I haven't heard of half these genes and I don't know where, you know, and now there's like just so many traits you get just flooded, you know, and, and you kind of have to be at that upper level just to keep track of everything that's going on because you step away for a day or two and all of a sudden you're behind the times. But I, I was once told by a pretty big ball Python breeder that it's people like me, like hobbyist breeders that don't have huge,

that are ruining things for him. And I'm like, wait a second. I'm the guy buying these overpriced, you know, pretty colored snakes from you. How am I ruining it? I'm making you money,

dude. Don't put that on me so you may just be a second tier consumer of a morph but you're still a consumer yeah exactly i mean we were putting we were putting out some pretty good money for ball morphs you know like back you know we bought a spider for like five grand or something for us that was a heck of a lot of money you know and and this was fairly early on in the spider realm. So we were pretty excited to have that, but you know, it's, it is what it is, I guess. But so Kendra, I'm not sure where this leaves you, but if you want to retort, please feel free. I mean, I don't, I mean, I, the only, like, I guess the one thing I do want to

like kind of give Dom a shout out for it to your like there there's a lot of like negativity with surrounding ball python keepers because of how many just kind of dipsticks there are in who are keeping and attempting to breed and and kind of flooding the market with with animals that aren't really desirable um with Dom like she's done a really great job with her group um the female herpers and reptile keepers page on facebook if anybody is interested um and it's it's you know it's for females because being a female in the hobby and and trying to do ball pythons it it's good luck like there's just so much negativity out there with it and her group has really helped a lot of females kind of like pursue that passion of, yeah, like you are new in the hobby. Yeah, like ball pythons

might be something you're really interested in, but having a sense of community and a sense of a community that isn't going to like thrash you because, hey, look at my ball python I got off preg list, you know, they're going to be excited for you and ask you questions and be like, hey, like your setup looks kind strange let's let's go ahead and make some changes or here's some suggestions um so i just want to give a shout out to don because she's she's freaking absolutely amazing and there is a lot of negativity out there but you know the female herpers and reptile keepers group is is like the one light that I see with in the reptile community is, is being a female in it as well. I think that's just one thing I wanted to point out today.

And I think, you know, from Justin and I, I'll just say that, you know, we talk about the patriarchy issues around, uh, the reptile community and it's not something that gets talked about, but you know, I've heard enough, uh, comments and things that are said from men in the community. And I just think it's, it's crap. If we're really talking about creating a, uh, you know, a diverse and inclusive community, um, that, you know, that patriarchy shit needs to stop. And so hats off for, you know, doing things that make inroads and build everybody up. Uh, cause we're, you know, we're not going to get there. Um, oh, you know, with one side or the other, or, you know, degrading one, one group or

another. Um, so awesome. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Chuck and I were talking the other day trying to figure out like, you know, why don't I have more friends that are women in the reptile industry? And, and I think, you know, it's, it's a little more complicated than like, oh, I just, I do, I only deal with men, you know, but like, I think my wife might get a little

upset if I'm talking to a woman, you know, for lots of different phone calls over, you know, extended periods of time, she might start to wonder, wait, what are you talking to this other girl for? You know, so it gets a little complicated in some respects. And I think that, you know, keeps, you know, people who aren't against women in the hobby from maybe reaching out or interacting like you you know i can't be one-on-one with some woman at a reptile show because that could you know that could be uh maybe a negative aspect for my wife to consider so but i would just ask you know both both kendra and dom how many inappropriate interactions have men you know perpetuated upon them uh unsolicited i guarantee the number is not like on one hand so you know i i i hear what you're saying justin i agree there's probably some like

like logical you know just kind of like and both of us are married and we're old and like i get like you know i get a lot of those reasons but the other stuff that's just inexcusable and frankly fucked up. Like I don't get that shit. Sure. Okay. Can I, I'll talk on this for one second because like, this is obviously like, this is truly my passion. Um, so I studied information systems in college, which is very male dominated. I work in the construction industry, which is very male dominated. I work in the construction industry, which is very male dominated. Um, and

the reason I started a lot of what I do with bringing women into the hobby and amplifying voices of women in the hobby is because I didn't want the hobby to be another place where I had to doubt myself every day because of my gender. Um, and I just want to thank you, Kendra, for your incredibly kind words. That like means a lot. And it, in a selfish way, it is so nice to hear Justin and Chuck talk about this and like recognize behaviors. Because I think one of the biggest things, and one of the reasons that a lot of women weren't speaking out in the hobby is because I have received so much hate for what I am doing and for what I talk about. And I know that there are people who will refuse to do business with me in the future, who have said it to my face, that they will refuse to do business with me because of what I do. And I can't say it doesn't hurt. It hurts a lot. I've doubted myself almost every single day since I started making this a

big part of my platform. But it's the conversations and people telling me how much it means to them that like make it work. And then we make three steps forward. And then a guy at a reptile show tells me if I suck his dick, I'll get a free snake. And it's like four steps back. And it's like, these are the things that happen behind doors. And they're not happening on podcasts, not happening in the Facebook groups necessarily, that like are difficult for women to talk about because it's embarrassing. It, it makes you think like, is there something that I did that gave him the impression that that was okay to say, or that was okay to do? And so I think that we have to like, we have to forge relationships with men and women in the hobby. and like i do understand the whole like

my wife might not want me talking to this other girl but like treat it in the way of like i'll be friends with your wife like i don't care yeah i don't care and this is gonna sound horrible i don't care about you outside your animals like that is what our friends and i think an excellent example of that i am such a strong proponent of Anthony and Shannon Piroleone's podcast, Turtley Devoted, which they started as a turtle relationship podcast. Anthony is totally into turtles, like more than anyone I've ever met. Shannon doesn't really have any interest in them. And I met Anthony through Facebook and he was like messaging me and on their podcast, I heard Shannon go, who the fuck

is that Dominique girl you're talking to talking to. And Shannon is now one of my best friends, because I spoke with her and I was like, Hey, like, I just want you to know, like, I'm nice, like as turtles, you know, and I think that maybe that's the thing of like, bring your wives into the hobby. If you're if a wife or a girlfriend or a partner who's maybe not into it, but they want to learn more, add them to our Facebook group, the Female Herpers Reptile Keepers group. It is, we have so many people in that group who don't even keep animals, but they just want to learn.

It's like a great way to do it. And I think that having these conversations, having people who are important and make like change makers in the hobby, like Justin and Chucky both are like open up about these conversations. So it's not me or Kendra or another woman constantly like pushing it because I know that can be a deterrent is so important and it's uncomfortable, but it should be until it's not. Because I hope that in 15 years, if I'm married and I have kids and my daughter says, Hey, I want a ball Python. I know that she can get a ball Python. She can join that Facebook group. She can join that VR, whatever the fuck's going to be in 15 years. She's going

to be accepted, welcomed, and enthusiastic outside of her gender. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, Justin and I both have wives, but we both have daughters as well. So, I mean, none of this is lost on me. And if I have to have a conversation with my wife, like, whoa, whoa, whoa, don't get this twisted. Like, listen, here's what's going on. You know, you know how things are. And, and I'm friends with Dominique because she's down to, you know, bring women into the hobby. And we're trying to build something positive here. And I'm trying to advocate. My wife would be like, done.

We're good there. Yeah, absolutely. I support that. And I think most women today who, you know, have to deal with a lot of the bullshit that they have to deal with understand that. And you know what? Honestly, and I'll just say it like if there's guys out there who can't deal with that fuck them fuck them who cares fuck them i yeah my like i was uh talking to you guys before my daughter's really excited about reptiles and

she's kind of just getting into it i i hear her up there like start like recording a podcast on her phone you know like she's 12, you know, it's really cute. She's really jealous of Chuck and wants to be, you know, co-host here, but she, I keep telling her, I'm sorry, you know, we got to figure out a way, but, um, I, I love the idea of her having a place in the hobby and not having to go through the garbage, you know, if she can avoid those, those jerks out there. And, and I'm, I'll, uh, I'll kind of bring out, uh, Eric Burke, uh, the pod father as, as a good example that I've heard him, um, defend women in the hobby, you know, and there's, there's, we had some pretty

in-depth conversations on a herp trip a while back. Um, and there was some discussion of, you know, women using their femininity to, to get free snakes or things like that. And it's like, well, you know, they, and there's a lot of, I guess, preconceived ideas of, of how women are in herpetoculture. And I'm like, that's just garbage guys. I'm sorry. That's, you know, and we, we, and Eric and I both kind of shut this conversation down in regards to that. So, um, I think things are moving forward in a good way and I, I, I just love, you know, what you guys are doing. So that's awesome. Way to go down. Yeah. Keep it up. And we will try to support as any way we can. So, yeah. Can I just, I'll just add one more thing. I think like the biggest thing you guys can do,

and I was having this conversation with Travis Wyman, um, a couple of weeks ago is, um, I try really hard when people ask me for recommendations of like breeders to go to, or recommendations of people to talk to on their podcasts for every guy I give one woman, or I'll give two women because we have to work twice as hard sometimes. So let me give that push to another woman in the hobby. So for example, someone was asking me ball python breeders to go with the other day. And I was like, Matt Burton, he's one of my best friends. He's incredible. Can be reptiles, but then Kendra Westy as well. Kendra is incredible. She's got great animals. Talk to her too. And talk to both of them, different things, but, but just those little things of getting in

the habit of uplifting women and uplifting like other marginalized groups within the hobby to get their face out there and to make it more normalized. It's hard at first, it's awkward. You kind of have to like retrain yourself to do it, but that's what in the long run is going to help us all as a community. And also selfishly as a community, we can be looked at as an extremely patriarchal hobby. You know, there's a lot of people who look at us and like, like, Oh God, all those, like all those guys with the big muscles flexion with their retic. And you know, that's, that's the outside perspective of the hobby too. And if we start to show ourselves as this inclusive hobby and this hobby, that's about uplifting people and building community that looks better when

we're trying to fight for our rights to keep the animals that we have. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think you see that machismo in like the venomous community and the large constrictor community. I mean, you can see it and it's not, it's not hard to recognize when you see it. And when you see it, you're kind of like, oh, like it doesn't look good when you see it, you know. And I could only imagine somebody who isn't spooled up on snakes, isn't into reptiles, what they see. Yeah. I'm taken back to when I listened to Jeff and Kendra on the Morelia Pythons radio podcast. And when they asked Jeff how he got into it and he's like, Kendra got me into it, you know,

it's like, why are you talking to Jeff first when it was Kendra that was the one who kind of started this whole thing. So I, you know, it's kind of, it's just almost like an ingrained behavior for a lot of people. And I think, and I think checking your unconscious bias is something that people need to do. You know, I mean, it's look, everybody has biases. It is a, it's just, it's a part of being a human being, but checking those biases, that's what people need to do. Yeah, absolutely. I think, and I think I've mentioned this before, like at shows and stuff, you know,

people come up to the table, they'll ask me like, oh, is, can I talk to Jeff? I'm like, about what? These are my animals. What do you want to know? You know, kind of, kind of check them a little bit and they're like oh sorry like like it's okay it happens but you know just be mindful of those sorts of things anytime i go to a show and there's there's a female behind the table i'm gonna ask her questions before i'm gonna ask this guy just as like a common courtesy just to kind of get people in the habit of doing it um you know

and i've talked about this to don like we do kind of have being a female, we do kind of have that advantage because we are more approachable, um, behind the table, um, which is really great, especially with kids. Um, you know, kids are more likely to come and talk to me than they are Jeff, you know, his big, scary mustache. Um, um, and, uh, you know, kids are the future of the hobby. If we want to get kids interested, that's, that's a great way to do it. But, like, to everything that we've been talking about, I think, you know, especially because the Python community is just so large. You know, there are just so many people in it.

I think we are moving in the right step by calling out, you know, perpetrators who are, you know, or who are kind of abusing their power or people who are just being kind of creeps in the hobby and so I want to like thank those people and to continue to have the courage to call them out because we need to snuff that out we need to get rid of this negativity in our community and I see it every single day still and I don't know if we'll ever get to that point where you know we can be all inclusive but if if we can get one more person out of the community, if we can call out one more person who's being a creep, who's being a jerk to somebody who just has a general question about an animal, I think that's a good day. And I think we just need to continue working towards that.

And I really want to encourage people to do that. And if, you know, if they don't, you don't always have to agree with everything that someone says, right. But, you know, being able to learn to be with each other and to hear people's thoughts and their experiences, I think is a really big thing. Everybody is kind of, I've mentioned this before, is kind of a regurgitating Richard. Everyone's just like, oh, well, somebody so told me this is how you're supposed to do it. You're not doing it right because someone so told me. Okay, that's great. But have you done that?

Do you know if that's factual? Do you know if that is what really works for your animal? And you see that so much in the ball python community. It just drives me nuts. And I don't know why or how we've gotten kind of down that path where people are just willing to spill information without fact checking. I mean, that's kind of our society currently. but like, I think, I think that's a human thing. I mean, I work in the aviation industry and, and, and you would not believe it. We call it tribal knowledge. It's, it's just, and we're, I think as humans, we're tribal people. Like we, we, we are into our associations and our

affiliations and, and, and, you know, that knowledge, it just gets passed and, and, and, you know, somebody finds something that works, but it's wrong and they just keep perpetuating it. And, and it's just, it, it, it almost snowballs and, and then trying to get it undone becomes like this ridiculous thing. And it's, it, I, I don't know. I, I, yeah, I deal with this in enough sectors of my life that i'm just like no that's people that's all that is is people so yeah yeah i yeah and i just i really hope that people like kind of see through the bs at the end of the day and yeah and they they try to learn for themselves and not just do whoever you know if so-and-so says this versus like trying

and experimenting things especially with like ball pythons because you know as so and so says this versus like trying and experimenting things especially with like ball pythons because you know as we've discussed they are a little bit more forgiving if that animal it goes on a food strike well have you tried you know changing the substrate have you tried blocking out the if it's in a glass container we try blocking it out have you tried it in the tub system and there's so many other things that we could do to try to get things to be quote unquote perfect for that animal and people just aren't willing to do it and i don't get it um i i would be more more than willing to try a hundred different things if it got an animal to eat if it wasn't eating versus just saying oh

it's just a food strike i'm just gonna let it do its thing and wait till it gets hungry enough um but yeah i just i hope our community changes. I really do. Cause I really like, you know, there's a lot of great people. There's a lot of great people I've met like Dom, like you guys, you know, like Jeff that there's, there's diamonds in the rough. We just got to find them. And we got to, we got to shout them from the rooftops and I really hope that we can do that in the future. And yeah, definitely. That's why we're so excited. You guys were coming on our, our, our opportunity to get to know different keepers and to get to know different philosophies and, and hear, you know, different sides of the coin. It's, it's the best way to do it.

I mean, this is just, I think this is a great platform for perspective, different perspectives, you know, perspective of really experienced people. You know, we did very inexperienced people from the super show. And that was even eyeopening for us to hear, you know, people who maybe that was their first snake. And it's like, you know, you get so far into it and, and like the way that they were talking and thinking, I don't think that way. And it, to, to get to that perspective is so important, but it, because we're all caught up in where we are and, and, and those things that happen in our circles, we miss those probably more important, uh, things that we need to think through. So yeah,

definitely. Thank you guys for coming on. This has been awesome on a bunch of levels. So I want to give you guys the opportunity to kind of have some final thoughts, uh, summarize whatever you want to do and, um, let's have you go first on. Okay. Well, I know I sounded super negative throughout this whole thing. Um, but I think the biggest takeaway I want to give people is, is to recognize that with any animal you're getting this learning curve, um, whether you're an experienced keeper or a new keeper, and that the most important thing, especially when getting ball pythons, is that you have ample education and support beforehand.

And look for those good people. Look for the people like Kendra and Jeff. Look for the people who are there to support you, even if it's not an animal you purchased from them. And then put pride aside and let yourself take care of your animal outside of like what you should be worried about, you know, like recognizing it's time to ask for help. Don't worry about how people are going to, you know, perceive you. And, you know, and I think that's how you can be successful with keeping a difficult first pet like a ball python awesome

gandra yeah no to that you know be prepared and be passionate um this is it these animals aren't something that you know is gonna pass away in five years they live 30 to 40 years so if you don't have a passion for the animal if you don't care for that animal if you don't have the education um definitely try to educate yourself before you know getting this animal if you don't care for that animal, if you don't have the education, definitely try to educate yourself before, you know, getting this animal. Don't impulse buy. I know it happens, but try not to. At least have some base knowledge before you try to, you know, pick up an animal on the next show. You know, and there's always something new to learn and be open to that. And I think that's a big thing, especially now with a lot of people who are doing like bioactives and and trying

different things in their enclosure with these animals new experiences for them and uh be open to it you know just because your ideology doesn't fit with theirs doesn't mean it's not wrong or right but it's your willingness to try and and to better the life for that animal because at the end of the day it's it's a life it's not just something we can throw away. Um, yeah, preparedness and passion, I think is a really big one for me. Perfect. Yeah. That's awesome. All right. Well, we, we really appreciate you guys being on and your wonderful viewpoints and the fun jabs you guys had with each other. So very entertaining. Thank you guys. Let's have you put your information out there in case people want to get a hold of you.

Yeah, I'll go first. So Puget Sound pythons, like, like the body of water in here, Washington. A lot of people say Puget, it's Puget.

But yeah. So we're on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, TikTok. We're on all of them. Just look for our logo, Jeff and Kendra. Cool. All right. Awesome.

And thanks, guys, for having us on. We really appreciate it. You can follow me at Defalco Reptiles on Facebook and Instagram. If you're interested in listening to the Modern Medusa podcast, where we only talk to female keepers, that's also on Facebook and Instagram. If you're interested in listening to the Modern Medusa podcast, where we only talk to female keepers, that's also on Facebook and Instagram and then anywhere you get your podcasts. I did an awesome interview with Kendra. Really recommend to hear more about her story and where she got started. And then if you are a female or non-binary identifying keeper or just someone interested, please take a look at the female herpers and reptile keepers group. Thank you guys again. We sure appreciate you coming on and, and, uh, enjoyed the lively conversation. So we'll, uh, we'll, uh, um, hopefully have, have another

chance to have you guys on again. This was a lot of fun. All right. Well, yeah, no problem. Our pleasure. Yeah. Well, Chuck, uh, good stuff here. Yeah. This was a, this was a really fun conversation. And, um, again, I mean, this, this was a, an instance of, um, these guys had a, had a topic they wanted to cover and they brought it up and we said, heck yeah, that sounds wonderful. So let's have one. So, um, we welcome any and all, uh, topics and, and fighters. So come on and bring your topics with you and we'd, we'd love to have you. So, uh, we, uh, thank you for listening.

And, uh, this has been another reptile fight club and we'll we'll uh have another one for you next week so dominic and kendra are out so Thank you. you