Reptile Fight Club - Do herping techniques travel? W/ Paul Davis III

Episode Date: March 20, 2026

In this episode, Justin and Rob discuss  if herping techniques travel? W/ Paul Davis III. Paul's IGWho will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comIG https://www.instagram.com/jgjulander/Follow Rob @ https://www.instagram.com/highplainsherp/Follow MPR Network @FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQSwag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to Reptile Podcast. Wait, podcast, reptile Fight Club podcast. I guess I don't know how to podcast, and that's what's sticking in my head, I guess. I'm Justin Ju-Lander, if I can remember my name. And with me here is Rob Stone. How you doing? Doing great. Excellent, excellent.

I'm doing pretty well. I'll get to go herping tomorrow, so that's good. Things are warming up enough to potentially find something. I'm not, you know, too. getting my hopes up too high, but we'll see what happens and go a few hours south and see what I can find. But looking forward to herping with some legends in Utah herping and maybe even further than that. So I'm excited to see Pat again. By the way, Pat May has put out some fantastic herping videos on YouTube lately.

You just put one up a herping sonora. they found like, what, a dozen beaded lizards and, you know, boas and all sorts of crazy stuff. So check that out. Shout out to Pat May. His username is Pat May, Utah on YouTube. So, yeah, pretty fun to see those videos and see how well they did, man. It's crazy. A few other recent videos as well.

I think he herps all summer and then posts videos during the colder months. So he's been releasing them fast and furiously. So, yeah, things are warming up a bit here, but still a little chilly. So I don't know. I'm itching to get out, though. Itching for warmer weather and seeing some scales. But what do you do? Anything crazy going on in your neck of the woods?

No, nothing too wild. Every kind of warming up, we had snow. last week and then kind of getting warm off warm warm back up out of that so uh the critters at the house kind of took that as the opportunity to to warm up and things i know we'll have a you know don't doubt that it's fall spring and we'll get cold again or whatever but mostly they're pretty resilient to it so yeah paired up the portoican boas and jamaican boas um and um you know coming off last year with the jamaican's finally breaking their biannual cycle and missing I had some ideas for that.

I think I've talked about where I think that's pulled out the cork tubes because I feel like she just sort of had sequestered herself and was able to box them out out of that context. So this time I pulled those out, you know, made sure to do that. And yeah, within an hour they were calculating and, you know, I've been going for three or four days off of that and all. So sort of their normal thing. So, yeah, I wasn't sure if being off cycle,

if she would skip yet another year to get back onto that sort of cycle or if it would be another year off, but looks decent. So we'll see. Maybe some of those to give away again. Nice. Yeah. I did get my first clutch of the year, and unfortunately it was all slugs. So my black-headed python slugged out.

That really hurts to say that. But I guess I can't complain. I've gotten plenty of good eggs from her and just screwed them up. So what's the difference now? I just have to worry less sooner, you know. So what do you do? But I wonder if it was just because it was so warm this winter and just kind of messed up cycling. I probably should have pulled back on the heat element in their cage and stuff like that.

But live and learn, I suppose. I was all set, though. I had all my incubation medium set up and the nest box all set up. Yeah, the incubation box all set up and ready to go. And then, yeah, no getting eggs this year. But it looks like a couple of womas are going to lay. my pygmy bandit python should be laying soon. So things are moving in the right direction for other projects.

So we'll see. We'll see what happens. Cool. Well, you know, I would say that it's actually that readiness, not the temperature that had you having poor results there. You know, if in fact you were ready and getting into it. Exactly. I jinxed myself. Yeah.

Yeah. It's when I'm out of town, then she lays good eggs. Yep. Yeah, right. Or I don't have the incubator on and she'll lay good eggs. So, yeah. Should learn that by now, but what do you do? All right, well, without further ado, we'll bring on our valued guest here.

We've got Paul Davis on the podcast tonight, so excited to talk to him about all things, herping and such. We're going to talk about some, you know, some techniques in herping tonight. So welcome to the podcast, Paul. How are you doing? So good. So good. This is my first podcast. So this is like super exciting for me.

All right. Yeah. Man, Rob's been getting some really good guests. So we're, you know, I'm, I've just been kind of late. back and letting him do all the work. So I feel a little guilty. But glad you're glad he got you here and yeah, looking forward to our conversation tonight. So, yeah, why don't you should tell us a little about yourself, how you kind of fit into herpet culture or herpetology and that kind of thing. Yeah. So, um, I, I, I sort of always tell people that my, my story is

that I was once afraid of snakes. And then I, I, started looking up all of these things about snakes, because I asked the question, like, why am I so afraid of these things? I'm like, who does that? And then, the more I started figuring out, like, how cool they actually were, I was like, okay, I think I'm actually interested in this.

But long story, longer. It was one of those things where I always grew up watching things like Steve Irwin and I grew up with OG YouTubers like Herping with Dylan and then Brandon from Triple X, Herper Triple X, like those kinds of people. But that's where I sort of got my start in Herping world. Okay. And it just sort of never stopped.

I mean, it kind of got, you know, bumped up again in 2020 when I basically had nothing to do. Right. Met three new friends and we just like dusk to dawn. Go, go, go. Nice. Sometimes. But yeah, I just remember being afraid but also curious when I was little.

And I remember this one specific time when I was taking my dog in the woods. And there was a black racer on the, like the edge of a forest. and something like shook me because it like started rattling its tail and I had never really experienced that before. And I was like, ah, what is going on? Why am I so afraid of this right now? And like, and that just led me into like deep research of, okay, why do they do this? And then I found Herpingwood Dylan and all of these other. people. I was like, people look for snakes?

They can do that. And I just, you know, remember Googling like, how to look for snakes. And this is before I even knew what a snake hook was. And it's like I would take a stick and make sure that there was a fork on the end of it. You know, break it all, just, you know, just at the right length.

And I would take that out and be like, all right, we're going to look for snakes. And I'd be out for hours just like walking everywhere. not really knowing what I'm doing. Yeah. Being completely fascinated just by everything. Nice. How old were you?

Probably in between the ages of like 10 and 12. Okay. Yeah. And like that was still when I was confusing rat snakes with king snakes. And I would call DeKays Brown snakes a chicken snake. Like what? I don't know I'd do what I was doing. It was so bad.

That's cool. Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, we hear that occasionally. You know, I guess I was, I was, I think, born with the snake gene, you know? Like, I just came out just looking for snakes or, you know, excited to find them and all sorts of things. So I never really, my dad would take me backpacking, you know, and this was obviously, I'm older, so it was before the internet. And so, you know, you could look at books in the library or something like that. And that's kind of where you learned. So I didn't realize people did it,

you know, as a, like you said, like did it kind of full time or went out looking for snakes on purpose. I just thought, oh, you just find them when you're out hiking through the hills or whatever. I didn't know you could go and flip rocks all day and break your back and hope to find a, you know, little gym under the, under the rocks. But yeah, so it was really kind of exciting when I, you know, found out, oh, you can do this. You know, that's the whole purpose of the trip. And so, yeah, that's a good realization, right? Yeah, that's a lot of fun.

And I remember figuring out, like, the whole ethic behind harping. And I remember the day I found out, like, you are supposed to flip things back. Right. I went out my door down the creek where I was like, I know I flipped things here. And everything that looked like I flipped it over, I was like, I got to flip that back. Nice. Yeah. That's great.

Yes. And how did you find your people, like people to herp with and stuff? I basically, I was herping by myself for the longest time. Yeah. And I would like ask some of my friends that live. in the area or my cousin, like, hey, you want to go look for snakes with me? They're like, that's a little weird, but okay, sure. But for the most part, as of now, it was social media.

Okay. I, like watching YouTube videos, I would see, like, oh, they're in areas that I know. Like, this is Tennessee. So I would know, hit them up and be like, hey, do you live around here? and that's pretty much how I found the core group that I look for snakes with now. It's just saw him in a random YouTube video, and I was like, wait a minute. I know this area. Yeah, that's cool.

Yeah, so you're still herping with them now then? Yeah. Oh, that's great. About how many strong are you? It's really, it's like a core of, like four to five people. Yeah. And now we have like friends just like all over the place that we just meet up with occasionally.

Right. But yeah, it's that kind of thing. That's cool. So now on some of your further, you know, I see you've gone to Australia. We'll throw that in right now. And did you go with these buddies or did you? Yeah. Okay. Well, at least one of them.

And they, it was original. and planned as a two-week trip. And at first, I was like, I really want to go. And it was like a pipe dream. And I was like, I really don't have the money. And thankfully, some things happened. And I was like able to get the money, but only for a week. And I was like, this is worth it.

I'm going. I'm not stopping myself. But one of my friends that is in that core group, went and we met up with two other people, one name Joseph, and then I'm not sure if you know Eric Rosenthal. I know the name, yeah. He's Eric, or Lost in the Woods on Instagram and social media, stuff like that. Okay.

But we met up with them and then met up with three locals in Australia. Okay. and my friend in like core group of people, he had went last year. And it was one of those like, when am I ever going to get the opportunity to go to Australia again? So, yeah, we, you know, planned this one, sort of planned, and had areas that we were going. And then when I finally said, hey, I'm going, they kind of flipped where they were going. just so I could see the most while I was there for the week. They stayed for another week after.

And what sucks is the job that I have, I'm mainly working on Sundays. So it's like, and it was snow back home and everything was canceled. And I was like, I could have stayed. Wow. Right. That's how it works sometimes. You're just like, I came back for nothing. Yeah.

Right. Oh, shoot. Yeah. Yeah, I'm always of the opinion. If you're going to fly across the ocean, you know, you might as well stay for a couple weeks, right? If you can, I mean, obviously. Yeah. It's tricky.

My first trip over was almost a month in Australia. So it was, I don't know how I, I still don't know how I worked that out, but it worked That's a whole lot of Australia. I was pretty ready to come home. I miss my family, but, yeah, it's good times. Yeah, so you do a lot of local herping then. How much, I guess, what kind of percentage of your time you're spending in your home state and traveling to different areas? Yeah, most time, so I live in Tennessee.

Okay. Most of the time I'm either herping somewhere local or at least within an hour of home. Nice. How's the diversity in Tennessee? It's okay. I mean, we have a lot of really cool animals. Where I live, I mean, we're getting bad. Harry Kings.

Well, I'm not getting those other sons off. And then pine snakes are a huge thing. Right. I mean, there were records and research just 25 minutes away

from where I live. Can it make Rob salivate over that information? Yeah, so it's like, I I, you know, I've, every time I go out, it's, it's pretty much within the local area. But I guess longer trips, North Carolina, Georgia. And then I ventured up to Snake Road.

Like, that was just like a dream come true. Right. Like thing. pilgrimage. It's like everybody has to go to Snake Road. Like, come on. I still haven't been, but yeah. I agree.

I'll make it sometime. It's so much fun. Yeah. It just seemed like snake after snake after snake. It was crazy. Yeah. But it seems like the, as I get older, the trips going elsewhere are becoming fewer. And I don't like that.

I'm trying to like ramp up. like how much I'm going. I was telling one of my friends the other day, like I'm trying to make it a goal, at least get out every single weekend and go somewhere. Even if I don't see anything, I just want to be out. Yeah. It's a good goal. Yeah.

But, yeah, does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, very much. Yeah, I like that idea and attitude. That's a good one. Yeah, so I guess we'll jump into the topic. We're going to be talking about, you know, our herping techniques, you know, the stuff you've developed, the methods that you've learned, you know, herping Tennessee. And then how do they translate when you're somewhere like Australia or, you know, Georgia or whatever, if they're similar? Do the herping techniques travel, I guess is the thing?

And so we'll flip a coin. We'll have, we'll be like on on either side of that. Yeah, they travel. You can use herping techniques wherever you go or now there's some nuances. You've got to switch things up if you're doing this or that or the other kind of thing. So Rob and I will flip the coin to see who gets the pleasure of debating you tonight. So we're fighting with you, I guess. What do you want to call?

Tails. Tails. It is heads. So, I'll go. head if that's all right. Cool. Heavy moderate if that works. Sure. And then Paul, we'll flip a coin to see which side of the topic we get here.

So what do you call? We'll do heads. Heads. It is tails. I'm a double winner this week. I was a double loser last week, but a double winner this week. So let's go with, yeah, I'll say they travel pretty well. I'll give you how they may not travel very well.

or, you know, that kind of thing. If that works. I think it works specifically for Australia. Okay. Okay. Yeah, I mean, there's plenty of, yeah, I'm sure there's plenty of instances. So I guess I'll go ahead and start. So, you know, I live in a desert state. And so, you know, I like to go to other desert areas, you know, going down to Arizona or

to Australia, you know, Central Australia, that kind of thing. And it seems like the stuff, you know, you do in Utah translates pretty well to what I do in Arizona or in Australia to a large extent, you know, for the most part. If it's hot, you go out at night, look on rocks, look, you know, road crews, those kind of things. So, you know, I think there's a lot of instances where things are are pretty similar. You know, you look for areas that have standing water pretty much you're around. You're probably going to have better success in those areas for, for a lot of things. You know, other times maybe specialist things like Dune, you know, like sidewinders, you might find, go over to Africa and find like a sidewinding adder or something, you know,

sidewining viper or something, Sarastis, you know. So I guess it, that's kind of how I'd start out. I think there's a lot of things that you can develop and learn. As long as you're going to an area of similar habitat or similar conditions, I think a lot of times the methods will carry over. So I'd start out that way. I'll let you either refute that or find another point, I guess. I mean, I definitely see where you're coming from. and I agree almost in every aspect.

The only thing that I am like thinking of, specifically where I'm from, is we're laying a lot of tin, and we're laying a lot of artificial cover just all over the place. Right. And being in Australia, that did not work. Like, if we were asking, you know,

the people that we were with, and, like, they never lay any kind of cover. Well, they may lay, like, some cover, but most of the time it's just like straight up cruising or, um, or at least I think that's the majority of, because all we did really is it was way too hot in the way to do anything. Yeah. Um, what, what area were you in? So we were in, um, mostly, uh, the Brigolo Belt.

Okay. Um, so it was like, inland Queensland. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Most... Or were you in New South Wales as well? No, no. Yeah, it was just mostly like in inland Queensland.

And then they did Brisbane after that they traveled back down. Right. But yeah, I was thinking, like, we're going to go flip rocks and like, oh, that didn't work. So we just chilled mostly during the day or we looked for monitors in the day because they're going to be out. And then at night, we just, you know, we're going from like 8 p.m. to sometimes 2 in the morning. Because like it was crazy the amount of heat that would stay. Right. Yeah.

When would it start to cool off or did it really cool? Yeah, it definitely did start to cool off around like 11-ish at night. It's not really normal for where I am. I sometimes go to the Smokies and we're starting at like 7 p.m. Right. And then especially during like this time where the fluctuation is just, you know, it'll drop to like 60-something degrees by like 9 p.m.

We're like, all right, time to go. Yeah. Yeah, that's, what's weird, what kind of threw me for a curve too going over Australia is that it gets dark at like 6 p.m. And so, you know, you've been cruising for two, two or three hours and you're like, man, it's like middle of the night.

And you're like, oh, it's 9 p.m. Like, you know, you just feel like an old man or something. Oh, you better go to bed. It's nine. PM, you know? So, yeah, that was kind of a weird, kind of takes you back a little bit. So, and, and I mean, I don't know, we, we were in, I'm trying to think down in, in New South Wales, kind of in the mountains a little bit. And I was with some friends. We were herping by a creek for a bit. And then on the drive out, they're like, oh, there's this field and a bunch of tin, you know, laying out in the field. And, and like, we've been kind of chased out of here by a farmer before. And, and, So we were kind of apprehensive. But we flipped a blue tongue skink and a small like copperhead, the, what is it, the Ramseye, the copperhead over there. And a couple other little goodies.

You know, there was this really crazy skink with a bright yellow belly. And I think it had like two toes on each hand or something, you know, kind of weird looking little skink. But it was, I guess, you know, similar to some extent that. that, you know, if, I mean, obviously, if you're in the deserts of Utah and you have a piece of tin out, it's probably not going to have anything under it or a board or something. But, I mean, looking at, you know, Georgia or Tennessee, like you set out those tin stacks and you can be flipped. I was watching, was it one of those herper, maybe NFK or not, it was Will Robertson or somebody out there in the east. And he was flipping this tin stack.

And I like noticed he, there was a milk snake just like coiled up. And he didn't notice it. He just flipped to the next, you know, stack of tin. And I'm like, how did he miss that? It was like right by his hand. But, you know, and then there was like a big timber rattlesnake in the bottom. And then when he was putting the pieces back, he saw the milk snake. He's like, how did I miss that?

You know, went back and showed it in slow motion that he just moved. You know, I'm like, oh, I'm glad I caught that, you know, saw that. But it's kind of funny. Yeah, but I think that was Will Robertson. Yeah, yeah. Maybe down in Louisiana. So were you guys kind of in that Roma, Charlottaville, St. George, that area? Oh, my gosh.

Why am I having a hard time remembering? We, oh, my word. It's going to be one of those moments where I'm like, all right, one second. Let me call my friend. Hey, where were we? But it was all I can remember. remember is, oh yeah, we were in Queensland, but my brain is so bad with directions. My friends are going to hear this and be like, this is the worst guy to ask where you were.

We definitely have guys like that in the group. No worries, you know, and some of it, too, I think is a function of, so were you, you plan some of it out or did, you know, were you mostly kind of like, hey, we're going to rely on the locals and you're just along for the ride and the vibes? Honestly, we, we play. planned out the areas that we were going. And I think because my friend went last time, he was sort of like guide-ish,

but really we were kind of relying on the locals to be like, here's the really good areas. We're going to be in, you know, this place for this long. You'll find this and this and this. But somehow, and if there are any Australian Herpers listening to this podcast, I am very, very sorry for all the luck we brought to your land. Because there were animals that we were finding that the locals that were with us were like, I cannot believe.

We've never seen these things in our entire life and you come over here and first trip and find it. It's like crazy. Tell us, what was it? If you can. Oh, my gosh. It's the, oh, my gosh. Go away, go away. It's the, oh, my goodness.

You just build this stance, aren't you? I mean, one, they found two WOMA pythons within the stream, and that is like, that's huge. Really difficult to, like, even think, you know, that would even happen. I didn't even really think that we would get one. So that, like, made my entire trip. But it's the, the pell-headed. snake.

Uh-huh. Yeah. A hypoly cephalus or something. Yeah. Is it Torma-Bitis or something? Or Bivoc, something like that. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. But yeah, it was, it was that the moment when we got out of the vehicle, like, the amount of explosive excitement. And they were, like, traveling to us. And we were like, it was amazing. And then what's some of the other? I think that one alone was like the pinnacle of,

oh my gosh, the Americans brought their luck with them. They're like finding two WOMA pythons like insane. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I haven't seen any Hopluse-Epless while I've been over there. They have the, what's the one in the, in the diamond area? know where they're similar. Yeah. Yeah, they're similar. The, oh my gosh, broadheaded snake. Yeah. They're, they're pretty cool. But yeah, the pale-headed's the Baitorquatus. That's the species name. Yeah. I was close, but not quite there. Yeah. They're really beautiful looking with that. Yeah, really cool facial pattern and, yeah, lighthead. That's a, that is a great find. And it's, you know, you're on the right track when the Australians are getting excited.

Oh, yeah. And what's crazy to me, this is sort of like is subject change, but I went over with this expectation, like I have to be so careful. Everything can kill me. Oh, my gosh, what am I doing? I'm not going to touch anything. It was crazy. And then one of the locals that we had with us, he was picking up everything. And I was like, is this what they do? No. But shout out to Shout out to Lockhe because he Crazy bloke. But we love him. He basically was like, yeah, I'm building up an immunity. And I'm like, oh, man.

That's crazy, bro. But, like, he got bit by the pellhead. Really? And swelled up. Oh. Real bad. And like, he was getting bit by other things too. What?

Lucky. Oh, come. And like, sometimes he'll send us videos of him, like, you know, like he just got bit by a red belly the other day. And I'm like, how are you so alive, bro? Right. Yeah, it was like, it was mostly eye-opening to be like, okay, all of these snakes that I had this idea of being so dangerous.

And, like, if I even get nicked by anything, it was like I was going to die. But that wasn't really the case. Like, things were really venomous there. But I don't know. I still don't want to get bit. I don't want to test it. You know what I mean? Well, what's fun is when you find yourself tailing a, you know, some kind of a lapid going.

Like it. What did I just do? Thankfully, the Eastern Brown we found was very chill, quote unquote, chill. At least the locals were saying, like, this was one of the most chill ones that they have came across, and it was still, you know, doing all of the things. But it was just fun to sort of learn or relearn that kind of idea that I had in my head was a little bit off. Yeah. Yeah, that was, I think my first introduction to venomous snakes was with, I mean, I was on my first trip. We saw a couple, I think, well, that was the thing. We had two cars in the car that was in front, like saw, I think they saw coastal Taipan and stuff like that. And I guess they were trying to get it and tail it so we could see it, but it was too hot and it was too, you know, feisty.

so they didn't really want to take the risk, so it got away before we could see it kind of thing. And we went over to, this guy worked at a crock farm, Steve Slark is his name, and he had a collection at his house, and so he invited us over for a dinner and, you know, served us some really tasty crock steaks or something, you know, like it was delicious. But he, you know, pulled out his red belly black. snakes and handed them to me and I'm like, okay, yeah, I guess I'm handling these things now. And then later he had a death out and he just put it in my hands. I'm like, thanks, man. I'm like, okay, you can take it back now. He's like, yeah, I handle these all the time.

I've never, you know, they're, and I'm like, well, it only takes once before, you know, to ruin a trip. And I'm like, oh, but, you know, it's kind of funny to do that. And then, you know, going out with some friends in Brisbane area with Troy Kulagowski. He was, I think, allergic or had, well, he had kidney issues, so obviously he's not going to handle a venomous snake, just a little too risky. But he did tail a red-bellied so I could get a better look at it. And then later on, we were with some other friends, Jono and some of the guys and found a couple more red-belly blacks, and they're tailing them, and they're showing me how to do it. And so I'm like learning how to, you know, in the field at real time. It was kind of cool. But, you know, they're pretty, pretty easy going snakes for the most part. And yeah, obviously, you don't want to try to try it on the ones that are like full temp and just, you know, thrashing around and stuff. That's not the best situation. And, you know, obviously people get bid and that's not great, you know, but yeah, I didn't want that to happen on my trips, you know. But I don't know. And then on some recent trips, like Jordan and I were out herping in,

South Australia and this, we came across this mulga. And it was just kind of, we, you know, was like one of the only snakes we saw on the trip. I think we saw maybe two or three, you know, in South Australia. It was really hard finding a snake. And so we were really excited to see this giant mulga on the road. And it just, we were taking pictures and kind of videos and stuff. And then it just starts crawling towards me. And I had my phone. I was videoing it. And I just reached down and picked it a tail that, you know, and got it off the road and stuff. I'm like, man. I don't even know what came over me, you know, but it was totally calm. But then I put it down and it did the whole like rear up and come at you in a serpentine motion.

It was really cool. You know, I was like, well, that's impressive. It kind of gets your heart racing. But yeah, and for the most part, it just kind of crawled off. And, you know, we didn't mess with it too much. But just wanted to make sure it got off the road, right? So, you know, just when Australia, do as the Australians, I suppose. So maybe, and that's, I guess that may be something that doesn't translate.

Yeah, I was about to say that doesn't really translate here. Right. Because like dealing with copperheads and rattlesnakes, like, I would never think to, like, tail a timber or a copperhead even, you know, just with, like, one hand. Like, at least with a hook. and like having the tail and a hook but I would never even think Right

Just grab it by the tail I could never think of that Right But some of the animals over there Like their demeanor was very calm Even for like You know Even it was just like a few minutes

Like we were able to at least Like take the text and like set it off the side of the road. Right. Still, I mean, that's, you know, not the most safe thing in the world to do. Yeah. Well, there is a story of, I think it's John Weigel, came over to a meeting over in the U.S. and was herping and he got bit by either a copperhead.

I think it was a copperhead. He was flipping rocks and got bit by a copperhead, you know. And here he isn't, you know, an Australian has all this experience with, you know, all these venomous snakes, but it comes over here. and gets tagged, you know. Well, just so we don't get the hate mail. He's an American who's been in us. Oh, sorry, not John Wigel.

Rick Shine. I think that's who it was. Yeah, not John Wigel. Sorry, my bad. But I'm pretty sure it was Rick that got bit over here. So if I'm wrong, yeah, you know. It was a prominent Australian herpetologist. It was Australian, not an American.

John Wigle is, yeah. He has experience with rattlesnakes growing up in the, I think he, grew up in Colorado, didn't he? Somewhere in the west. Yeah. Yeah. So I know he'd been to Utah State when I met him. So I'm like, oh, that's cool. He knew where I was, you know, he'd been to the town I live in now. So it's kind of fun to hear that. But yeah, so yeah, I mean, those kind of things when you're used to, you know, tailing a snake with neurotoxin and then switching over to a springy viperid that has a hemotoxin may not be the same experience. And getting bit by a copperhead or a cotton mouth might be a different experience than getting bit by a paleheaded snake, you know, where it's, yeah, I don't know.

I saw from your Instagram as well that you guys saw at least one spotted black snake, which is a really cool, a lapid. What happened there? What was the story with that? Yeah, so the spotted black snake was the first Australian. snake that we had saw as a group, or we had seen as a group. We were going to our accommodation, cruising the hallway there, of course, because once you're in Australia, that's just what you've got to do. And it was a fairly large, well, I can't remember how large it actually was.

It might have been three. feet, give or take. But the one that I had a picture of is one that they had caught like just a few hours before we were getting there.

And they were like, this one's really, really pretty. We're going to hold it for using it. So you can see it take pictures. And they were very, very nice about if something was really cool. And, you know, we've never seen it before.

They would like keep it for, you know, a little bit just so we could see it, which was like crazy. I love that they did that. But seeing that first spotted black. Yeah. Anyway, spotted black. It was like, okay, now this is real. Yeah. Yeah.

We're finding snakes. And it was one of those, like, I don't really know how venomous this thing is. Like, what are we going to do? Like, are we going to take pictures now? Like, all of these emotions. But, yeah, we saw a few others after that. And the variability of spotted black snakes was mind-blowing to me. I was like, I'd never really seen that much variability in reptiles specifically than when I went to Australia.

Yeah. It's pretty amazing. I mean, I just love that aspect of it. Yeah. I haven't seen a spotted black yet, so I need to get over to the Brigolo, it sounds like they're a little species. Yeah. They're beautiful, too. I like that grayish, you know, sheen to them.

Yeah, they're neat looking. Um, I, uh, I, I, I think too, like, uh, you know, the, um, so at least, you know, using a hook and stuff, you know, I think you can, um, translate that to different snake body styles, I guess. So like, uh, you know, if you're working with coach whips over here, you'll probably be okay, you know, working with a spotted black snake or a big, quick, venomous elapid over there, potentially, you know, versus a rattlesnake over here and a death adder in Australia. You know, they're a little heavier body, you know, to some extent like that. Some kind of practice you can do over here that translates over there, all right?

Beyond the flipping, sort of my imagination of the conditions in Tennessee is that you're probably doing a lot of cruising and probably cruising on asphalt. So you can speak to whether that's fair or not. And then how is that similar or different to then what you were doing in the brigalow? Is that also asphalt? Were you looking for dirt? How does that? Yeah. So most of the time cruising, especially in Tennessee, it's either.

either on gravel or asphalt. We're mainly doing asphalt evening in the night. And that was pretty much the same thing when we were in Australia. And then gravel midday, if it's not incredibly hot. I've never cruised gravel at night necessarily, so that could be a thing. I just don't have much experience with it really. But then when we were over there, it was just blacktop the whole time. I don't really remember us finding any kind of snake on any kind of dirt-ish road.

And there was even one time where I think we like turned the way the GPS was telling us instead of going back the way the locals were. Big mistake. But, you know, we were going through some of these places where it was, you know, shifting from asphalt to dirt-ish. And we weren't seeing anything. And I don't really know why that was. But, yeah, everything that we were finding was basically on

blacktop or it was midday in a tree. Right. Yeah, I just mostly draw the distinction, right? And I haven't been to Georgia for herping at this point, but certainly north central Florida, you're looking for dirt, not for blacktop, right? You know, and so kind of highlighting that they're conditionally, or, you know, if Justin, you can speak to this, and I think mostly it's because it's not super paved, but if you're up in far north Queensland, then, you know, it's dirt. And that, and that sort of the answer. So that's why I highlight that, you know, something that would fit into that camp of, okay, maybe your local technique, right, if you're your Tennessee conditional, you got some

elevation, you're used to getting pretty pronounced day-to-night swings, those sorts of things. If you're in a consistent heat base, you know, maybe that looks different, but maybe you're not also, I would venture that when you're abroad, you know, at least you had the locals with you, but I know Justin and I have been in spots of saying, oh, should we, you know, do we trust the rental to this dirt road? Or how do we feel about it? It looks okay here, is it about, you know, but there's no way to turn, not an obvious way to turn around based on the width.

Or you, you know, not really trust in those things and you're going to stick to, well, if it's asphalt, at least we know we can get back the way we came. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's one of the things that really didn't kind of trust. travel is one, we were in a rental. So, like, I know my vehicle. And I know the areas that we're going to.

So it's kind of easy. But over there, that does not work in the slightest. If you don't really know your vehicle and you don't really know some of the areas, I can't really remember if there were any kind of like, okay, can we pass through this area or is this going to give us issues? But that seems to happen.

Even in the sandhills in Georgia, it's like we're not going to get through that. Like, stop. Yeah. There is some nice consistency with when you're on dirt roads. that you can see when large snakes have gone across the road. You know, they're there. And we were herping in Texas, Jordan and I,

and seeing these huge tracks from indigo snakes, you know. And sometimes it's, and it was like, oh, I've seen an indigo here, you know, and seeing this track there. It's like, oh, man, this is like deja vu pretty much. And then in Australia, we were driving some dirt roads and found, you know, blackheaded python crossing the road. and you could see his tracks almost before you see the snake, you know. He was kind of making his way off the road.

But when Jordan and Jason Hood spotted that one, so it's, it was pretty cool. I think we were on pavement when we found the WOMA. Both WOMAs that I found in Australia were on paved roads. And I don't know, I'm not as good at herping on dirt roads, I think. So I prefer the paved roads because it's, easier to see stuff, you know, that kind of thing. And for some reason, man, when we're, Jordan and I were in South Australia, I kept missing stuff on the dirt roads. And he's like, oh, is that a gecko? I'm like, I didn't see anything, you know, and he'd flip around there'd be a gecko there. I'm like, gosh,

dang it, what is wrong with me? You know, I'm just not spotting stuff. But so, you know, those kind of things occur as well. But I think, and sometimes we get, you know, preference for one or the other. So maybe if you're more akin or attuned to, you know, cruising on a paved road, then you're going to have better luck, you know, cruising on a paved road if you're in a different place or a different country. But yeah. Yeah. And what you highlight, right, with the good and bad of dirt is it sort of tells you what you missed in a way, you know, if it's not there, right? If you see those tracks, I know, I think, Justin, it was after you'd come back. It was after we did find a pine in the pine barons. The next day, we were kind of in that same, in it,

a similar areas, similar conditions. And it was very clear that another you know, pine snake size snake had gone through and it's like, well, the width on that, I don't think that's a black racer. You know, well, we know that we missed it, but when, especially on those

rarely traveled things, that it's like maybe this was yesterday also, you know. Yeah. Who knows? Yeah. But I mean, when we were looking for the indigoes, it had rained like a ton. Right. It cleaned out. Yeah. Yeah. And he tracks you see. And also we were in an area kind of,

next to the border. So, like, they, they had these, uh, these things that they would drag, like, tires and stuff like that that they would drag behind the patrol vehicles that were patrolling the border to, to be able to see footprints of people crossing in illegally. And so they would, they would smooth out the roads. They're putting timestamps on it. Yeah, exactly. So you'd have like half the road would be pristine, you know, clean, smooth. And then you'd see like a track or something like that coming across the road. So it was kind of a nice little tool to be able to look for snakes there, even though, you know, the patrol agents kind of grumble it once in a while. We did chat with one guy and he was really cool. But, you know, like sometimes you're like,

hey, get off our roads. You're messing it up, you know. At least stay on this side. Don't drive on our smooth area where we're looking for tracks kind of thing. So, you know, I guess as long as you play nice, you get away with stuff sometimes. And they were public roads, so it's not like, you know, we're trespassing or anything. Yeah. Now, that's a technique. We'll have to take to the sandhills. Right.

If you want to know where, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, Rob does make a good point, though. Like, unless you've had a recent rain or something or heavy winds to kind of clear everything out, you don't know how old it is. You know, there may be some tells to it. But when we were herping in southwestern Utah, we'd have our tracks. And then all of a sudden we'd come back and there would be Gila Monster tracks over our tracks.

So like it waited, hit out and then waited until we passed. Then it kind of booked it across the wash or whatever. And it's like, come on. We just want to see you, man. Come on. But, yeah, so we knew that they were in the area and they were moving right after we did because their tracks were on top of ours. when you are in that Sand Hill Habitat, have you seen, have you had success sort of reading the tracks and finding a snake just off the road? I know, you know, I don't know that it's ever worked for me at this point, but I know that it's worked for other people.

So it's always something that I'm curious. Right. I mean, I've had friends that have found almost immediately the snake that had just crossed, but it's all a matter of, like, time and luck. So, but most of the time when I see a track, I'm not really good at seeing the track unless it's a big, a big animal. So I've never really had luck seeing the animal after it's already crossed. But I know people who are like, oh, yeah, that's easy. You just go the way it seems that they're going. I'm like, but it looks the same.

I, yeah, it can be a little landing. I guess the, the obvious one is the sidewinder, and, you know, their little curve points the way they're going or whatever. But I haven't had much luck tracking down sidewinders either. So I've followed a few tracks and just awesome. We followed a Gila Monster track, like halfway up the side of a, you know, cliff. We were just following it. And like you'd be able to see where it went and then it would hit rock.

And you'd be like, okay, spread out and find the tracks on the other side of the rock. And then you'd pick up the trail again. You're like, oh, here it is. And it went this way, you know. It was kind of a fun little game. We never found it. But it was fun kind of tracking it across the area. And, yeah, it's kind of a nice little extra added element.

But again, I really sucked at seeing those tracks. Jordan was like, oh, there's a track. And we pull over and there'd be like a, you know, four inch wide track, like almost like a big tire, and it was a big, you know, indigo snake. And I'm like, yeah, I did not see that, you know, it's kind of crazy. So my visualization for Tennessee is that, and I suppose it does very dramatically, depending on where you are, but it's probably lots of leaf litter moisture, something that we don't believe in or have out here in the West.

How did sort of as biota, how did it compare to what you're used to being down in the Brigolo? And sort of what is that like? Is that, would you call that sort of plains-ish? Is it more desertish? What was the sort of impression it gave? And I'm sure that's very different because I know both Justin and I, we prefer herping in the desert to be in back east because there isn't, you know, much leaf litter cover and, you know, all sorts of,

detritus and some things that cause make it much more difficult. No ticks. No ticks, yes. Yeah. Yeah, I, especially where I am, it's a lot of leaf litter. a lot of pine needle-type thing, depending on the area, wet, dry. But over there, it was particularly dry, grassland scrub, especially in the burglow. Not super, like, deep red clay that you would see, like, more inland.

But, yeah, it was just very dry, which was surprising to me that we were still seeing snakes because it was so dry. And then, like, the locals that were with us, you know, obviously they would say things like when it rains or like right after a rain. Like, you know, there's a lot of movement. And it's like that it's sort of the same thing, you know, over here. that is sort of one thing that can kind of travel when you're in any part really like if there's if there's water stuff is going to be active you know everything is attracted to the water so right yeah yeah that's a good point i mean that's uh you know deserts once rain hits the desert you know and maybe when it warm up a little bit because I mean if it comes at the wrong time that can really mess up your herping you know if it's like cools everything down right before the sun sets then they're like I'm not going to go out there because it's cold you know that kind of thing so we've had a lot of instances of

of rain improperly timed rain you know come on at least let the sunshine for a few hours after the rain that will help us immensely but yeah if you if you have a good rain you can have a pretty great night of herping. We were herping in West Texas and got some super heavy rains and there were like boulders on the road and all sorts of stuff. But it cooled things down a bit and we had to run for the car. I think we saw a few things that night though. Like we saw that gopher snake and the one that disappeared on Owen. Yeah, and some night snake.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Noxunga. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's a function, as you say, they're just in a function of the interaction with the temperature, time of year in temperature. So that, yeah, in West Texas, in the early summer, when it's, you know, otherwise would be 100 degrees, that, you know, when it's bringing that down to the mid or upper 80s, that's super helpful. When it's, we're shoulder seasoning it, as I want to do, down in, you know, southeast Arizona, that if instead, it's, if instead, it's,

takes us from the low 70s to the upper 50s, that's not ideal. Right, yeah. And also, you know, all the rains in Arizona were really nice for bringing out the turtles. You know, I hadn't seen box turtles and things like that. You know, the mud turtles. That was fantastic. Yeah, mud turtles, I wouldn't have believed existed in that area. Right.

When they first showed up, by the end of the week, it's going, man, there's, you know, we've stumbled into eight of them in this canyon. This is wild. Yeah, yeah. And they're just like all of a sudden appearing out of nowhere almost. Like, where did they come from? And how are they surviving? Yeah.

Like, it was incredible. I love turtles. They're so tough, you know, like, just have that staying power. I guess amphibians are similarly. And I mean, that was another thing that was kind of crazy in Australia. Like, it was hot as anything. You know, I was just roasting. And, you know, there was a little bit of rain coming through.

It hadn't hit yet, but like I go out cruising and there's like green tree frogs on the road. You know, like, how are you even surviving, you know, being on the asphalt at, you know, this temperature? And they were just fine, you know. One was even trying to breed a DOR, another frog that had been hit. It was horrible. I'm like, dude, you got to move on. This one's not worth your time. time here. So kind of sad, but crazy. Yeah. But, you know, I think in general that that aspect of

rains, you know, potentially bringing activity out, we had a similar situation up in Darwin area where it rained. It had been really dry and the first rains are coming through. We're like, this is going to be good. And it was fantastic. Like, that was probably the best night of herving that I've had with all the different species we saw. We saw, you know, night tigers and a couple pygmy mullgas, a blackheaded python, olive python, you know, a bunch of geckos. It was fantastic. And then the next night, we went back to the same spot and saw virtually nothing. And then the giant moon came out, you know, we're like, oh, maybe that's, that's the problem here. Right. Conflicting interlock, you know, intervening factors. Although I think as much as,

say we're kind of framing this in the context of moisture coming, I think it's almost rate of change relative to the environment that it is, right? In the rainforest, I think being, getting, going from wet to dry, that same transitionary state can have that same impact when we were up in, um, outside of cans, right? When it was actively raining, the only thing that didn't seem to care was scrub pipelines. The carpets and things had been out before, you know, before the cyclone was incoming. Once it came, it was frogs and the scrubs that didn't care, but everything else was like, no, just wait until it's not raining. So I think it's, it's almost a function of that sort of transitional state, even, even temporary from the, from the normal that maybe is an inducement.

Yeah. And so in a wet area, actually dry can sometimes be good, or at least right on that, that front end of it. Right, right. Yeah. I think that can, I think that can translate, though, you know, like if you're in a rainforest and, you know, it's raining all the time. And it goes dry. Right. And then it gets wet. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And with with temps. Yeah, it's probably, I don't know. It's almost, yes, I think that maybe it's how far we go up the chain in terms of saying, okay, are we just talking about transitory states in any precipitation or any temperature or anything like that? Or, you know, if we talk about it more specifically and say, well, in the desert, well, this is similar to other desert environments. If I'm in a humid environment, it's similar to other humid environments, right? It travels depending on the sort of level with the stratus level that we're looking at it. Right. What would you say your favorite find was over there?

What got you most pumped for when you're herp in Australia? Honestly, everything was a lifer for me. Yeah. So I was like, like, even the bugs, I was like, oh my God, this is. is so cool. Right. But I think I think one of the

coolest things that I was like this looks so different versus like especially even in the Petroids were bearded dragons. Right. I was so surprised. I was like, what is like

why do they, you're so skinny. No hammocks either. Right. God. How do they even survive? But I, think one of the coolest things that we found was Bert,

Burton's legless lizards. All right. Yeah. And just finding out about that. I was like, they just look so weird and they're so cool. Right. But yeah, it's like,

it's that kind of thing. But, like, talking, talking about, like, weather and, like, it being dry as all get out over there, one of the funniest things was in our accommodation, like, the toilet was, like, in an outside area. And it was. like ran by like rainwater and all of that stuff. So during the day, the frogs would hide. But then at, you know, a given point, you would go into the bathroom,

but there's like 20 or 30 just on the toilet. Inside, in the, I was like, I have to fish him out before you feel too bad about it. Yeah, that's crazy. And I think, you know, it seems like trying to think over here if we find a lot of stuff. I mean, you'll find stuff at like the Port-a-Pott. I still remember when I was a kid. We were in St. George passing through or something, southwestern Utah. And we were stopped at a rest stop or, you know, bathroom or something.

And I found a band of gecko crawling along on the wall, you know, like just kind of, I'm like, I didn't know these guys crawled on walls, you know, but they, you know, he's just using little fingernails or whatever, climbing up a pole or something, but I was like, that's cool, you know. And, you know, a lot of times when you have lights and, you know, bugs and stuff, like, we'll stop and look in, in Central Australia, same kind of thing, you know, you'd stop at the restrooms at the park headquarters or whatever, and there'd just be geckos all over the wall, different kinds and shapes and sizes, you know, looking around the lights.

trying to grab moths or whatnot, some of the flying insects. So, and, and, I mean, carpet pythons are definitely notorious for seeking out, you know, addicts or, or areas where they can hang out. So, and I think, you know, similarly, you know, you can look around dilapidated buildings, you know, things like that where, or farms where, where there's rodents, you're probably going to attract some snakes in. So I think seeking those areas can be. successful whether you're in Australia or in the U.S.

you know, or or a different state. It seems like, you know, dumps and things like that where there's a lot of, a lot of ground cover can be high yield sometimes, even though it's not necessarily very beautiful or pristine to herb. You can find stuff under, you know, under garbage pretty readily. I think we found the consequences of trespassing or evaluating checking out those places is probably doesn't travel all that well. The South feels a little bit different than Australia.

I think you're maybe less like a shot in Australia. But maybe not. Yeah, we were looking for blue tongue skinks in the highland or the alpine region of New South Wales. And my friend was driving. He's like, well, I'm not, you know, I'll stay here in the car. But we've gone here before, but sometimes they get a little upset about it. So we had climbed a fence, walked through this field. And we were flipping tin by this kind of.

shed, you know, area. And they had some cows, I believe, out there. And so we were flipping along and, you know, and looking under stuff. And all of a sudden, we hear this dog barking up the way. And we're like, oh, I wonder if they're going to alert the, you know, the property owners to our presence. And then all of a sudden, we heard a gunshot. And so we took off running back, jumped the fence and jumped in the vehicle and sped off before we got shot. So I think there are some similarities, especially out in the country, you know, in Australia to what might happen, you know, and, you know, you hear those kind of horror stories around here, too. It was sort of the opposite, especially in the Brugelow.

It's like, there was no one. Right, right. Hardly anybody around. So we were like, let's just go here. Cool. But, yeah, it was in the craziest places because it was hardly anybody there. Yeah. That's one of the beautiful things about.

Australia is so many remote places that just don't have a lot of people. And I mean, you know, like on the East Coast, we'd be inland a little bit, but there's still quite a few towns, and, you know, we're trying to find, you know, a place to pull off the road. And it's like kind of a major road and you're worried about getting in trouble if you're sleeping, you know, and too close to the city or something like that. So, yeah, and especially tourist areas, they don't want you sleeping for free in some of these places, you know, mouth was a rough place to try to find a place to bed down. Paul, did you see the tongue of the Burtons, any of the Burtons that you found?

Yes. They're insane, right? I was like, why do they look like this? One of my friends got a shot of it licking its eyeball, and I was like, there's no way this is real. So many crazy structures, different strays. I think it's so they can grab on the geckos, right? So they mostly get geckos. And I think it gives them a better grip.

But, yeah, totally. I couldn't believe the one that I had found. Yeah. And they're one of the most widespread reptiles over there. So you find them pretty much anywhere you go. You know, I've found them all over the place in there. Well, that's what everyone says, Justin. I don't know.

It took me four trips to find one. And then I didn't see a couple. But, yeah, I mean, they weren't turning up for me until. I was saying so many when we were over there. Yeah. crazy. Right. And it looked so different, just in different areas, like even close by.

It was like, I was, right. Yeah, we found one that had just like these orange, bright orange scales on its belly and a little up on, you know, speckles on the side. It was really cool looking out in the center of Australia and found a really dark, striped one. That was also in the center. Yeah. Like near Kings Canyon area, Watar. Um, how about, uh, pythons? That's kind of where my interest goes. You, you found the womas. That's, that's, that's huge. That's really exciting. And, and, and I would love to find a brigolooma. But, uh, what, did you see any other python species? Um, yeah, we saw children's pythons and we saw, uh, carpet. Oh, cool. Or the jungle carp up, or coastal cross-up lions over there, um, or where we were. Um, they also saw, um, black-headed.

Okay. I believe that was it. Okay. Well, that's pretty good to see several species of python. And one of my favorite shots I've ever gotten thus far of any snake was that coastal carpet python. Oh, yeah. That's a nice shot.

The eye alone was like magnificent. Right. I've never seen an animal that, like, detailed of an eye before. Oh, they're such cool snakes. Yeah, I love their eyes, too, are really impressive. Yeah, did you find more than just one each? Or I guess you said two WOMA's, but were there a bunch of the children's or? I think they found another children's Python or spotted Python.

It was one of the documentary exactly. I think you get. Yeah, just, I think. one or two black-headed pythons, two Lomas, and that coastal, I think they found another coastal. I have to ask them. It's one of those where I, you know. Right.

Well, and if they're going closer to Brisbane, then, yeah, really good chance that they're finding more coastals. Like, that's the land of the coastal. Yeah, they're cool snakes. I've only found one, one coastal in my trips over to Australia. And granted, I haven't spent a ton of time over there, but, like, yeah, just one, one coastal in Mount Glorious down kind of Ipswich Way or that area, yeah. Yeah, that's just, I think, so late, you know, Justin, especially knowing your, how adroit you are in the field, that's a function of your time, not in that area. Because there was that one night, I think we saw seven, you know, up there.

Yeah, when we were in sort of central, coastal central Queensland. and there was one area on cruising dirt, and it was something like seven within 90 minutes. That's awesome. Yeah, I would love to have a night like that. But, yeah, I mean, yeah, I think I've found more I'mbracotta than I have coastals. We did get to go hang out with Steve Irwin's dad on his property, and he had a couple coastals that had been caught,

and he was going to release him on his property. So we waited for us, and we got to go release a couple. with Steve Irwin's dad and Brian Barcheck and a bunch of other herpers. It was pretty cool. So I have pictures of that one, but I can't really count that as a find, you know. But man, that sounds like you guys had a really great trip, especially for one week in country. That's impressive.

Yeah, that's really good. My friends were like, you know, of all times to like, go for a short period of time, this was like the idea. Right. You picked it, picked it just perfectly. Yeah, it was great. Yeah, cool. And I have to agree with you on the Eastern Bearded Dragons in particular, the Barbada.

They're just amazing animal. I think that was my favorite animal from that trip that I was referring to with all those coasts. It was, you know, basically jet black with the yellow inside of the mouth and the silver pattern on the bed. Just truly, truly exceptional, truly amazing. creatures. Well, Paul's not feeling well, so we'll probably end the torture here and let him jump off here. But tell people where they can find your awesome pictures and more information about yourself, see your other trips. My Instagram handle is TN.Herper. Okay. I'm going to see Herper.

Yeah, Tennessee Herber. It's easy. Cool. Yeah, super simple. And that's where I do all of my reptile and amphibian photography. Okay. And if you scroll far enough down, you'll see like the progression of my photography skills. Thankfully, they have gotten so much better.

And I'm thinking of that. But sometimes, like, I, you know, I scroll back sometimes and I go, why did I post that? That's nice You know, it's like The shot doesn't matter It's like It's seeing the animal that matters So it's like

If we get so caught up in You know Like we have to get the perfect shot We miss the opportunity To like experience the beauty around us And it's like I know so many people who are obsessed with Trying to get the picture

And instead like You're forgetting You're looking at the most incredible animal In front of you Get yourself together Right Good advice. Take your face away from the camera for a minute to just appreciate it, right?

Yeah, that's cool. What rig do you shoot with? At the moment, I shoot with a Canon RP, and I have an external flash and all that stuff. And then I mainly, almost exclusively now, use my, I think it's my Lawa, 100-millimeter, 100-millimeter 2x macro. really, really clean shots that I'm getting, thankfully. That's awesome. But yeah, cool stuff. My brother let me borrow his RP, so I've been having a lot of fun with that.

Not taking many pictures in the winter, but yeah, I'm excited to get back out and use it some more. Yeah. Well, we really appreciate you coming on. It's been a fun chat with you and discussion. And, yeah. Yeah, thanks for having me. This was really, really fun. Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. Hope you feel better. Sorry. I'm a headache. I don't, you know, not sure really. Right. Yeah. We'll be, we'll be right.

Sounds good. Awesome. Yeah, thank you, Paul. I really appreciate it. Yeah. Kind of like to end of the show. And, you know, if anything cool that we've seen, herpetologically wise,

um, Rob mentioned a book last week called Pyrot by Dallon Kohler. And I, I actually, purchased it while we were on the podcast and it's it's been a really great read he's a great rider kind of brings it alive as trips and and stuff like that the animals so um i'd recommend it it's it's pretty cool and it's about you know finding snakes it starts out in utah anyway and mentioned some some folks that i know pretty well so that was pretty neat to to see that so i appreciate the

suggestion there absolutely well and it had come from tom major so as i don't know if you noticed that one of the blurbs is from Tom and highlighted from herpological highlights and all out. I wonder if they're interacting because now he's over in China. China. It's Dr. Messenger, I believe. Right, right. And then you sent the paper that was maybe one of the outgross of the book or, you know, the background for the book. Yeah, the first paper he talks about, you know, building an accurate range map for pyros in Utah.

So that was pretty cool. and overall in their range. But yeah, it's funny to hear some of those reports of records from, you know, Salt Lake area and where you just don't find them anymore and where you probably would see them if they were there, you know, with the number of people going through all the trails, yeah, so kind of crazy. Well, you know, Paul, I know you got to run, but I will have to bring it up. So Hognows are one of my favorite groups of snakes. and, you know, I saw you got the, you know, the transitionary photo of an eastern hog nose to a southern hog nose.

So I would, I did hike up a simus last year, and that was, you know, one of my favorite moments. So I'm always interested in hearing about simus stories. So if you wouldn't mind, just a brief interjection. Yeah, I, my first, I think my first, I think my first, I think my first, first simus that I ever encountered was in the North Carolina Sand Hills. And they're way more prevalent in the Georgia Sand Hills from what I've seen. But they, they're so cool looking. And like the whole like scoop thing, the, the Sima shuffle that they do, it was so

cool to experience that for the first time. Because I've never really seen that in Easterns. I was like, okay, this is the one thing that I have to see if we find one. I have to see them do this stuff. Yeah. I still haven't seen a live header done yet. I need to see something. But, yeah, love to see one play dead.

That would be cool, too. Except when you're trying to get the picture where they're not trying to dead. Right, yeah. You've got to be patient with those things. Well, again, thank you. you so much for coming on and we'll have to have you back sometime. It was fun to chat with you.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, cool. All right, well, we'll thank Eric and Owen and the Murillo Python's radio umbrella for hosting us and looking forward to some of their upcoming podcasts. They've got some cool shows lined up, so check out Moralia Python Radio for sure.

But we'll catch you next time for Repttafeight Club. See you.