Reptile Fight Club - Do morphs take away from the appreciation of wild-types?

Episode Date: November 18, 2022

In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the question, "Do morphs take away from the appreciation of wild types?"Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to thetile Fight Club. I'm Justin Julander. And with me, as always, is Chuck. What's up? Oh, hey, Justin. How are you? You didn't see me there, did you? No. You just creeped in. You're so stealthy. You're so stealthy. What is up, man?

Not much. Things are good. Good. How about you? No crazy work schedules? No. Work has been quiet. Nice. Very quiet. Nice. Yeah. Been treating me

right for a change. Oh, that is good. I'm getting very close to my trip to Costa Rica. So, you know, go... Have you ever been to Costa Rica? I have not. I've not been to Central America unless you're counting Mexico as Central America. I guess I kind of count that as North America, but yeah. So we're getting down into the heart

of Central America. We're almost down to Panama. So, you know, you can't get much more further South and you've been to Panama, right i have been to panama i have been to panama peru chile costa rica uh cartagena uh yeah very good been down that way yeah you've traveled much love it down much more extensively than i have in south and central america i love it down there it's the best yeah it's just what do you like about it like what's just i i just like the the culture the you know the the the history like the the nightlife is fun like i just i had a good time i mean all the beaches are beautiful like just i mean it's just i don't know i just you know i'm i'm i'm very excited but i'm i'm a little What I don't like about Costa Rica is they charge per person for everything.

I'm taking a group of my family, so I've got five or six people. Jake's not going, but everybody else is. And then I've got my parents that are going. And so it's like if we want to do any tour, it's like $50 a piece. So I've got to pay $250. They don't have like group rates or anything like that. Even some of the hotel rooms are like, yeah, $20 per person per night. I'm like, gosh, dang it.

So that means like I can get an Airbnb for that much per night and have the whole thing. We don't have to share. And it's not just one room. It's the whole, you know, there's a kitchen and all that kind of stuff. So I'm a little like, I'm going to lose my shirt on this trip, but it should be good. I just need to not think about it too much because I'm kind of a penny pincher anyway. Thanks, mom. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, when we were there, I watched a group of taxi drivers rob a couple of guys from the boat. So don't litter. Don't literally lose your shirt and don't take valuable. Yeah. Don't don't go flash. Don't go flashing your expensive stuff in Costa Rica.

It was the lesson. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Like it was like five cabbies. They all just like stop that. These guys was like five cabbies they all just like stopped that these guys were in a cab they all stopped the cabbies robbed them and yeah well i won't have much to rob i guess that's the good there you go like no the hotel here you go my money 40 good job like you see how many people i'm with you know how they charge around here you pick the wrong people go find that guy by himself he's got extra cash we're gonna be down in the osa peninsula which is exciting although you can't go into corcovado national park without

a guide like you have to have somebody take you into the park you can't just pay the entrance fee and go inside so that's kind of uh different than I'm used to, I guess. But we are going to be staying in some pretty cool places kind of close to the forest. So we should be able to do some hikes in Primary Forest or, you know, at least get in there somehow. So it should be good. You'll be okay, man. Tourism has its price, right?

Like they know how to – they got to do their tourism for themselves. Ashley sent me the most – a photo of the most beautiful eyelash viper, just this bright yellow eyelash viper that she found. So I'm excited. Hopefully, we'll see some of that good stuff some of the good herbs down there she just uh today she sent me a picture of a basilisk that's in her bathroom or something or in the kitchen or something just hanging out on the wall up in the you know it's this big male brown basilisk looks pretty cool so i'm excited that's pretty cool and then she found some kind of vine snake uh eating a lizard like on the side of the road you know so she's in some good good air a good area for herps and um hopefully the time of year won't ruin it too

much i mean i'm sure we'll see something but i think it's not the best time of year to go over but we're not going necessarily on a herp trip but we will be doing a guided tour kind of evening and night that just kind of focuses on finding animals so um hopefully i can kind of say you know learn from them at a herp out there and then kind of do my own thing you know in different areas or something but i don't know we'll see how it goes sneaking justin goes sneaking off in the dead of night. Yeah. What I am worried about is I don't speak Spanish. I wish I spoke Spanish.

Yeah. I'm not sure how I'm going to get along. Yeah. That is such a clutch thing to have somebody with you. No, I don't. But I got – yeah, we always had – i had somebody with me who totally spoke spanish and it was it makes a world of difference yeah it makes a world oh yeah on that trip to mexico my buddy's fluent so i disappointed him if somebody asked me questions like no habla check with this dude yeah and i mean it's cool like you, you know, I, I, I like to, I mean, I don't speak very good Spanish. I try to speak as much Spanish as I can,

but, um, but like, you know, communicating, uh, reasonably in a foreign country. I'm not there yet. Yeah. Not there yet. Well, I'm an idiot, dude. And like middle school and high school, I took French. I'm like, that's so stupid. Why did I take French? Well, French and Spanish are pretty close, aren't they? They're the same kind of root, but more difficult. I could have just taken Spanish.

Well, I took German, and I lived in Germany, so that helped out. Well, at least that makes sense. I never went to go live in France, so it just seems kind of dumb in hindsight. We're going there next year. You can come be our interpreter. I've got a meeting in France next year. No. But my girls.

I don't know if I'd be good. I would just use the word bourgeois a lot, and I don't know if I'd be good. I would just use the word bourgeois a lot. And that's not even – I don't even know why. My daughters are fluent in – my two youngest daughters are fluent in Portuguese. So you would think that would come in more handy with Spanish. Like it would be close enough, but they – yeah, they don't understand. Yeah. So they should talk to my grandfather. He's fluent in Portuguese.

Oh, cool. Yeah. Yeah, my youngest is pretty to my grandfather. He's fluent in Portuguese. Oh, cool. Yeah. My youngest is pretty bold with using her Portuguese. If she ever hears it, she'll just go right up and start talking to whoever. Talking to somebody. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Grace is not so... Well, it's... Yeah, but it's one of those things where, like, if you find somebody who speaks Portuguese,

you've got to go up and talk to them, right? Like, you know what I mean? What I do to German speakers in, like, national parks and stuff. it's about the only place you run into them is like in zion or somewhere in a national park you'll see german tourists justin just yeah he just walks up pardon me but all in all in japan with a bad english accent or something. The American accent. Well, yeah, anything exciting going on in your herp world? I started pairing stuff up, so we'll see. Nice. At least the stuff I really want to produce this year.

So I've got one project. I won't mention it because I don't want to jinx it, but hopefully I get some eggs out of that certain project. Yeah, I think I know said project. My most anticipated pairings for the year. That would be huge. That would be good. And it's starting to get cold here.

It snowed on us, you know, so we're getting some. I'm excited to leave the country and get down into some tropical areas. You know, it's been. Yeah, it snowed today and we, it was, I was kind of fortunate cause I walked over to Heidi's office to eat lunch and it was sprinkling a little bit, you know, a little bit of rain. And then, um, I get to her office and I'll, and everybody's staring out the window and like the wind is blowing sideways and there's, you know, snowflakes coming down and and people are walking and getting blown around

and it's covered with snow or whatever. So crazy. It was upper 80s earlier this week, man. Oh, man. It's like, what is going on? Yeah, that's how it is. It's not uncommon for it to be really warm on Halloween here. Every year I'm like, why is it still so warm?

And I'm like, oh, yeah. I live next to Mexico. Yeah, I mean, it usually starts to cool off around October time frame. But we usually have at least one or two kind of heat events in that month where it's like, oh yeah, I forget every year. It's, you know, not until November and December do we really cool off. Well, and that's, I mean, that's the thing about up here too, is, I mean, it could snow one day and it could be low 80s the next day. You know, it just depends. And it snowed on Halloween before here. You know, that's not uncommon for here either to have a little bit of snow. Yeah, snow on Halloween here would be extremely weird.

I can imagine. Well, yeah. I'd be wanting some of my money back. Yeah, you do pay a premium to live where it's warm all year. Stupid, dude. It's getting bad. Tell me about it. Everybody's fleeing your state into my state.

Yeah, well, you can keep them. Yeah, I think we probably will have no choice about that, and all our property taxes will rise. It's all fun. All fun and games until some of these taxes go up. The Californians will be like, well, you're so lucky to have us. On Heidi and my trip to Yellowstone, we saw a car that had California plates and a message on the window that said, we're not from California. This is a rental. Please stop harassing us kind of thing. People throwing milkshakes and shit at your car.

Put a note in your window so people stop harassing you. It's not a good time to be from California, apparently. Yeah. At least in Wyoming or month. My cousin, my cousin moved up to Portland, uh, years back and, uh, he, for a while he was sending me, he was sending me disparaging messages with pictures of people with giant chargers, uh, stickers on the back of their car. Yeah. So he's, it's kind of the same kind of the same uh vein but yeah uh good times yeah well um i don't know yeah it's just one of those wind down times i've got i've got pictures

of my inlands i just need to get them up for sale i've got you know and start alerting the list that they're up and available and i guess it's a race to see who wants them bad enough, I guess. But we'll see if everybody who is so interested disappears or if they actually sell and they're moved out. But I think I've identified my holdbacks. I think I have a couple that I really want to hang on to. And I need a couple now. Real red? um no not not

really red more i like that blue gray color but uh maybe you know i don't know i i that's the hard thing too is i haven't i thought you had told me wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute because i swear that we had had this conversation that you were kind of trying to breed more red into your inlands. And because I thought I had, I don't know, maybe I'm, am I tripping? Am I crazy? You're totally tripping, man. I don't know. I mean, mine might have a little bit of red, but not a ton.

Like, I don't know. There's other projects with red. That's fair. I've got some type of brettles. I've got some type of brettles that are looking pretty nice, you know. Nice. So I'll be putting those up for sale, too, once I get them. They hatched out a little later than the Inlands and still working on getting them to have five meals and feeding reliably.

I still have a couple, like two or three holdout males that just won't eat on their own. I've been assisting feeding them or helping them. Of the bread life? Of the inlands. But everybody else is eating readily and reliably. I also have a couple of jungles, too, that are starting to color up. I've got one really crazy, like pinstripe zebra looking thing that's pretty sweet looking so the male is like a stripe line animal and yeah i'm keeping

that one too so i've got a nice weird patchy you know like got some irregular um blotching on it so yeah yeah, good stuff. It's fun to, fun to hang on to stuff to see how it colors up and stuff. But I, I'm just like, I need the room. So I got to move some stuff as well.

Can't keep 20 carpets. No dude. And that's the worst. That is like the worst part, man. I swear. It's like, I hate selling.

Like, well, and that's the thing that's and you're like oh oh i can't let this go i can't let that go and then you're like oh my god i can't keep all this like what am i doing dude like exactly it like gets out of hand so fast and you're like and then it's like one like just coastals or like just you know you're like oh my god this is just one you know one species or whatever and i'm like i i got i got other plans going on here and i'm like gonna be overwhelmed you know i don't even i i think mcintyre is a freaking maniac like i i don't know how he does it dude like right i would be completely overwhelmed if i was that guy i just hold on to way too many things but i know it's hard to let him go sometimes but i i don't know that's i really like the stuff i keep so i don't mind

yeah and stay around for a little while but you know once it starts to get too large for the enclosures then it's like well you know now it's got to move or you know i guess i have some larger enclosures that i can put i guess i guess i will say on the other side of that holding on to nice stuff if you do need to get rid of it is probably easier than holding on to everything and trying to get rid of it later you know what i mean so but you usually don't get you know very good much out of an older animal even though you probably should you know it's like you raise it up for a few years it colors up all crazy nice and then i don't know yeah who knows i'm not the best businessman so i guess people can no take advantage of me and get some really nice animals

for a good deal but yeah i definitely don't do it for the money yeah oh good times you ready to fight we have okay oh what was it no mention something no that's that's probably it. I don't know. Buy the book. Yeah, you can buy a book if you want. A book book. Yep, a book book. Yeah, there's been some good books released lately. Scott and Ty Ipers. I need to pick up a copy of that. I should probably contact them.

I'd like to get a copy of that, even though I don't keep the Lapids. That's the only thing where it's like, I'm not going gonna keep them and but it would be fun to learn about them but you know yeah i need to do that i guess yeah i mean yeah i'm sure i sent off uh well nick's sending the copy to scott so he should get a copy of the book through nick and we just kind of divided up the the free copies because we didn't get the chance to have a case shipped over to Australia so we had to uh ship them from us and it's expensive to ship the books over to Australia luckily um some of the guys that are getting free books were nice enough to you know ship a few copies on so I could ship four at a time at the flat rate. So really nice of those guys. Matt Somerville, I mean, he's just a stand-up dude.

So I really want to herp with that guy. He's the master herper. Yeah, dude. That's like getting to party with Tom Selleck. Hell yeah, man. All right. Well, man. Wow. All right. Well, let's fight. So this is a suggestion that was suggested by an Australian guy named Cam Candy.

And Cam works at a zoo, right? And he was giving somebody kind of a behind the scenes tour or something like that and he got out a bearded dragon for him to kind of check out or whatever and the person touring was like oh that's oh that's gross that's much uglier than mine mine's you know beautiful this color that color and you get that bitch ass bearded dragon out of here so he thinks that maybe it was like one of those reduced what are they called like the silkies or not the silky but what's the form of silky like the leatherback or something like whatever yeah you're asking the wrong guy i don't know all those bearded dragon morphs either i haven't done bearded morphs or haven't done bearded dragon morphs either i i haven't done bearded morphs or haven't done bearded dragons

for a very long time but so they they didn't want to see a wild type because they kept a morph so that's kind of the impetus for this discussion is do morphs detract from you know people's appreciation of reptiles or do they add to it yeah Yeah. An interesting topic for sure. Let's go ahead and flip a coin. You ready? Think you're going to get it this time? I don't know. I've been kicking your trash this season.

That's tails. It's heads again. You suck. Man. It's back to me again, I guess. you had a good streak there for a while that was pretty uh entertaining but that has ended yeah one can always tell when justin's winning because he's rubbing it the fuck in hey you gotta take it when to take a win when you can, I guess. I guess, yeah. I hope that you rubbed it in the bin. You're right.

No, I was just about to own my own shit. Just, yeah, I was getting there. Yeah, that's fair. It's fair. Okay, well. I deserve it. Just because I'm a good winner, I'll take the morphs. Morphs enhance our appreciation of oh my god so uh yeah all right

well um but i'm gonna let you go first because i'm a gentleman i i don't know why anybody thinks that morphs enhance anything. I think they're, you know, they're like the shiny thing that distracts, like a car wreck. They're like a car wreck that you see while you're driving down the road that takes your eye off of what you're doing, driving the car,

and then you crash into the person in front of you. I think that's a that's a that's a a good analogy for how i feel about morphs um i yeah i think anybody who's who's who's who's been you know i think the podfather kind of comes to mind as somebody who you know was very very into morphs and you know i mean morphs are you know, some of them are cool looking. And but, you know, I mean, the flashiness takes away from, you know, people's appreciation of the natural history and, you know, some of the behaviors of the animal because they're solely focused on a cool paint job. And, you know, I think, again, you just go back to carpets, and I don't know how many times we've got to say this, but there is just plenty of examples of very, very finely bred, you know,

wild-type animals that just kill any kind of a morph. And, you know, I mean, it's like, how many times do you need to see a freaking white snake of a different species or an albino snake of a different species or melanistic or a hypomelanistic, you know? Like, it's just, to me, it's kind of like all the same crap in a different species. And it's like, oh, we're going to go through this whole thing again where it's kind of like all the same crap in a different species.

And it's like, oh, we're going to go through this whole thing again where it's just like, oh, it's worth so much money because this new mutation came. No, it's not a new mutation. It's just a mutation that's found its way into another species just like the other. Go, you know, if morphs are are your thing keep all pythons then where they've you know they've really unlocked the genome and they're doing all these combinations but leave carpets alone you know like can't can't can't carpet morphs just die on the vine anyway all right i digress back to you well in the studio why don't you tell us how you really feel i mean i i've started to i just didn't want to let it all go at once i know i don't think their listeners could handle it all at once i'm sure some people's heads are exploding right now

for the old man with the kids on his lawn i guess um i would say like okay so if you're given the choice of keeping a bright yellow and black jungle carpet or uh brown and beige like fresh out of the wild you know imported wild caught snake i think most people are going to take that flashy beautiful snake and you know say say they both came out of the wild you could find one that was uh Like, I think most people are going to take that flashy, beautiful snake. And, you know, say they both came out of the wild. You could find one that was, I would say that is a morph to some extent, right? You know, whether it's a simple genetic trait or whether it's been line bred or whether it has an adaptive advantage or something. People are going to take

the thing that they like to look at right and so i think that kind of applies to a lot of morphs is they want to see something different they want to see something new now i would i would say that there is a difference between like the the morph pyramid scheme game type aspect of it. And just a nice morph. Like, um, I think some morphs are maybe more subtle. Like you look at some and you're like, that just looks like a wild type.

That doesn't look any, you know, like a yellow belly ball Python or, or, you know, some of these, uh, more,

more subtle morphs that may like a super form is white, but the head form is, or, or, you know, the incomplete dominant form is like, eh, you know, it just looks a little, a little bit different than the normal. So I guess if, if you're just wanting something to look nice to look at, you know, and you don't care if it's, you know, what the price is, if it's a cheap, you know, like a pastel ball python or something, you just like to look at it, I think that's reasonable. I think we want to be excited about something in our collection.

Of course, I prefer wild types over morphs, but I also want to get the best-looking example of a wild type I can, so I guess I'm not completely free of guilt in that regard. Nobody's wanting to pick just the run-of-the-mill wild type. Yeah, but you're pigeonholing wild type animals into this like, oh, the jungles are all brown and ugly and shit. No, no, that's not what I'm saying. There's plenty of wild type stuff that comes out that's just absolutely slamming.

And, you know, so you can divvy this up and say that, oh, the morph pyramid scheme is separate from the morph, know having morphs and the morph pyramid scheme is just the the end the human end result of of of the perversion of of wanting something that is you know weird or or like you know yeah somehow somehow i don't know better than i i don't even know i don't even can't even use the word better because it's not better it's not yeah it's just just different i don't get it yeah but but but to me like the money that comes out of morphs is like the the that's like the last roadblock before the car goes off the cliff kind of a thing.

You know what I mean? But you're still on a dirt road with a flat tire running towards the edge of the cliff when you're talking about morphs. You know what I mean? I don't get our fascination with saying, oh, this animal that has genetic defects, genetic mutations, which oftentimes are not good. They have other issues. You know, when, when you have perfectly good, you know, healthy wild type animals that can be fantastic. Yeah. Some of them aren't great, but you know what, man, like it again, it goes back to the shit that really grinds my cloaca. And it's like people want to focus on people want to focus on you know oh you know i i i don't care about this you know i don't care about uh uh mutts or

you know integrates because they're not worth anything and it's this that's the same kind of thing where it's like you're not appreciating that animal that's in front of you because you're concerned with the name. You're concerned with the lineage. So you're taking the preference. Yeah, you're taking some type of artificial preference over the animal that's in front of you. And it's the same issue. As taking the wild type versus the morph. You're taking this perceived preference. That's been artificially constructed.

And repackaged in different species. Over and over and over again and for some reason that's that's what's the valuable you know and and if there was ever there was ever a worse mental construct for valuing nature and and the animals that we have that us people who like to herp and go out and like go to Australia and go and see these things. If we could pick any worse of a construct to take these animals that we take out because they're mutated and they don't look like any, you know, they look like animals that get picked off and aren't found in nature, like it just, you know, it detracts, it detracts away from the things ecologically that should be important to us. And, and, and, and both of you really have a passion for, for, for, you know, the snakes that you purport to love. Why does the morph have to be

the, why is the, the morph, the, the, the, the driver of the bus and all of the wild type animals are in the back getting beat to sit down? I don't get it. I don't understand why that is. And the only thing that I can think is it's because the car is going over the cliff because money is involved and somebody has kind of like taken a – what happened with ball pythons? Oh my god, we can make so much money in this. And oh, you can get all these weird things and people freak out and like, oh, you can make all these combos and everyone is a mad scientist and you can plug it in and it just totally takes away from what is great about you know the the snakes that we we all care about their their behaviors their habitat you know their their natural variation like you know and and for freaking pete's sake there's different, you know, there's different color phases and different

types of naturally occurring, you know, genetics that are happening. You don't have to take the extreme form of albinism or, or leucism or, or melanism that comes out. And yeah, you know, I just like those things are fine, but I just think it's an error in thinking. Yeah. Well, and I think, I mean, it doesn't necessarily have to be all one or the other way. I think you can still have an appreciation or excitement for a novel look and a morph and at the same time appreciate the wild type. I mean, you invoke the name of the pod father and i think he's a great example right that he was really into morphs and really have him

buying all these different morphs and he still has quite a few morphs but he's also now gained a greater understand or appreciation for the wild types and and i think one of his, uh, points was really well taken that, um, you know, morphs are kind of like they, they're the show, right? So if you have like a flashy morph, you can keep it in a barren cage and just have like the morphs, you know, that, that makes the visual appearance and everybody gets excited about that. But if you have a wild type, you know, you want to set it up in the naturalistic cage to show kind of how it blends into its natural environment or that it looks really cool on the rocks or on the branches or whatever, you know. So I think you can develop and maintain an appreciation for both. I don't think there's

any real problem with that. Now, you know, we might, we might differ in opinion and some people, some people are really excited about albino morphs and you know, they, there's some,

there's a couple that might look okay, but for the most part, they don't look anything near as great as the wild type with the contrast. You know, I like black and, you know, yellow or black and different color shades of red or something some kind of contrast um rather than just a unicolor or near unicolor snake you know so i mean the the albino carpets look kind of cool they get kind of that

orangey and kind of more contrasty orange or yellow on white, which, you know, is a pretty cool look. But, you know, I definitely would rather have a wild type than an albino. But if you can have both, why not? You know, this just kind of adds another layer to it. You know, firstly, all hail the podfather. But I mean I just – I think that – I get it. I mean I've got a pair of albino variegata. They're cool. I do – I don't – my issue is not with a morph in particular or whatever my issue is with morphs the the morphs at large and and and

how we allow a group of snakes to to obscure our perspective and i think the Podfather was a good example of somebody who, you know, he was all about the bright yellow Ferrari. And now he's like, you know what, man? I'm cool with classic muscle cars, right? Like, yeah, I can still look at a Ferrari and be like, that's nice. But I think, you know, I have an appreciation for the history and, of reptile people right you know um and and and i think that you know the morphs are kind of the like the short-term game versus kind of the long-term you know kind of kind of way to to view. And I think most people who come in, they, they look at, they, they, they are captivated by the short-term gain, but they stay for the long-term love. Right. And, and, and, and I guess, you know,

it's one of those things where you kind of have to like get in it to realize that. But at the same time, it's like most people who are in it long enough are like, yeah, why was I, why was I so enthralled when there's so much other, you know, stuff or like even going out herping and finding stuff in the water? Like, like, you I mean? Like, there's kind of, there's an evolution to it, but at the same time, like, I guess my thing is, is the way we view that in that evolution, is it necessary? Like, you know, is it the value system

that we place on morphs? And, you know, is it the value system that we place on morphs? And, you know, so eventually people appreciate the wild type animal, right? But they have this evolution to get there. And if we didn't appreciate morphs like we do, would there be that evolution or would people, you know, it's kind of like, you know, doing soul searching until you find your bliss. And what if you could find your bliss so much faster without, you know, having to sort through all of the. And I don't know, man, you know, maybe that's one sided old man. Get off my lawn. I'll hit you with my shoe.

Chuck talking. And, you know, maybe some people's bliss is morphs i don't know but i i see more people you know get into morphs then get out of morphs and i see people get into morphs and stay into morphs yeah for the long term you know i i just i've seen the evolution of the keeper long enough to, you know, to, to know that the, the, the, the morph thing isn't, isn't the lasting thing that, you know, anchors people into this. I think, you know, the, the fact that, that, that evolution does occur quite a bit where people get all excited about morphs and then they kind of get out of them and move towards the wild types and herping and things like that i think that's pretty common and and that speaks to kind of i mean it is kind of tiring to to be chasing in the morph game you know because if you don't get there or investing all this money and never being able to like like wait what

it's only worth this much now like i but i put all this money in like you're chasing this stupid yeah it's like you you're like oh i'm done with this escalator and it's kind of like a flash in the pan you know it kind of comes and goes pretty quick you you have to you know it depends on the species and the morph that you're dealing with some stay viable for a very long time like a piebald or something like that piebald or you find out some of them are have issues that you know and you into it and then they're gonna yeah kind of it never it never brings for you or it sucks or yeah some weird quirk to it yeah there's just so many aspects to it where it's just, you know, to me, it's just like such a,

a detractor in so many different ways, um, that, that I just kind of am like, and, and, you know, especially in carpet pythons, like, I'm just like, why, why do we continue to hang on to morphs? And, you know, why is it so like, you know, and I think, you know, man, I mean, I think I think you and Nick have done a good job in the book and and and slowly kind of, you know, slowly but surely, I think, between NPR and and and the more complete Carp Python like that, that kind of mantra of of morphs kind of turning the corner and and just the amazing diversity and you know the the different looks you can get out of carpets and that you that that you know it's not just captive bred carpets where you're like what is this oh i don't know because you could go to a wild type and if you didn't know what it was or where it was found, you would have a hard time identifying it because it doesn't fit into what your mental thing of like, oh, that's what a jungle is or that's what a coastal is or that's what a variegata is. I think that there's enough diversity in there and enough coolness to keep everybody occupied where – but I don't know. Yeah, and I think too if the value is taken away and that's kind of what eventually happens with morphs, at least the base morphs.

You might have more value on a multi-gene animal but if the value goes away are you still keeping it you know do you still want to look at that and enjoy its beauty or whatever and keep it regardless of the the price affixed to it and and i think that's kind of you know if you can appreciate a morph for what it's worth but also appreciate you know where it came from and the wild types and things like that i i don't see any harm in the morphs. You know, if you're not necessarily like in it just to make a quick buck or the, you know, you bought into the whole pyramid scheme, which I think a lot of us kind of got caught up in, in the excitement of producing new morphs or seeing the latest, greatest craze or, you know, that kind of thing.

And thinking, but I do think, you know, that kind of thing and, and thinking, but, but I do think, you know, that the, the idea of, um, mixing different combinations and getting patterns and colors that nobody's seen before in a carpet or in a ball Python or whatever, you know, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's, it's another level or a different level of enjoyment that, you know, I'm not going to fault anybody for. Let me ask you this though. If you just take the, the, the monetary part of it out, right. Where you're like, okay, multi-gene animals will hold their value longer because they have more genes. There's been more work, but it's been put into them to get them to there. You know, it's like all that to put all that part aside. If you just take something new, something that's new.

Oh, I'm all excited if this new thing is out. Once the newness wears off, how long? I mean, even if it's a multi-gene animal, maybe its value stays higher. But are people as excited about it so the excitement that i always hear in in stuff is always in the well this new company you know the the the um brian kabilka's everything he's doing because it's all new it's all or just sorry justin kabilka i was like one of the names i can remember yeah yeah so so so like a lot of his stuff is new and it's it's crazy looking and so it's like right on everybody's – the tip of everybody's mind. But there's stuff that's like – what was last year's or two years ago's combos?

Are they still – maybe some of them, maybe some of them not. I guess the point I'm making is it's like the newness that people are chasing, the rareness, the, oh, this is – there's only five of these or, oh, this is the first time this has ever been produced. And once that shit wears off, people are like, meh. I don't know. How much is it worth? I would buy into it but not for that much. I'd wait until it gets to this. So it's really about the rarity of it and like the mystique and the newness of it.

And once that shit wears off, I think people are apathetic to it. That's the same thing with anything. I mean that's the same thing with wild types. If you've got some Bolin's Python and then all of a sudden they start importing Bolin's by the thousands and they're worth $200, are you going to be that excited about your bullens? I don't know, though, man. I think a lot of people buy things for the wrong reasons. And I don't know that we're necessarily talking about buying morphs for the wrong reasons because you can appreciate a morph whether it's worth something or not.

And that's why I say with you know, with that caveat, if you're chasing the game, if you're just trying to make money and you're getting the latest, greatest morphs that people are interested in so you can make a quick buck, then, you know, I mean, yeah, maybe you're a businessman and that's what you're into it for is the business side or making money off of snakes. You know, for me, that's not my cup of tea. But there are some morphs like a piebald or something that I wouldn't mind keeping or a pastel sugar ball python that I don't really care how much it's worth.

I just like looking at them and they look nice, you know, when they're older and stuff. So it's worth having them around. And I think there are some carpet morphs like that. I mean, like I said, I can appreciate an albino Darwin or a zebra jungle or, you know, something like that for their, for their looks. And, and I've got some and I, you know, enjoy looking at them and, and, and, but I don't think it's because they're worth anything because right now they're not really worth more than a wild type, you know, an albino or a zebra are basically the same cost, you know, maybe $50 more than the wild type or whatever we call a wild type as far as

jungles go, you know? So I think it's just the motivation, you know, and I think people mature and they grow out of like, they realize, okay, I'm not going to be the next big breeder. I'm not going to have the miles of aisles like Brian Barczyk or something. But don't you feel like – I'm going to focus on what I really like and enjoy, and I'm not going to worry about the value or perceived value of the animal. But don't you feel like now that zebras are roughly the same price as normal jungles, that maybe they're where they should be? And people now, they'll like them. People will spend the extra couple hundred bucks or a hundred bucks or whatever to get the zebra because that's what they like. And it's – but when you have this gross disparity between the zebra morph and the jungle, that's where the issue is because people are focused on the wrong part of the thing. It's the thing because it's worth a lot less of an issue with morphs I guess because there would be less of a reason for people to pervert the value of a morph because you couldn't attach anything other than your own personal like to it.

Yeah, and I mean I think that's fair to say, I mean, that's what we should be asking ourselves. And I mean, you could get a new project and be all excited about it because it's new for you and realize really quick that this is not a project that you're excited or that's going to be a long-term project for you. And I mean, I think we all go through that. We've all had projects where we're thinking, oh, this is a cool animal. And then you get it and you're like, ah, no, it kind of craps on me all the time. And it's really defensive. And, you know, I don't enjoy it as much as I thought I would. And it always hides.

I never see it. So there's lots of reasons for getting out of a morph or a project in general. You know, I think there's a lot of ties that way. So as long as you're responsible about it and you're not just dumping animals or freezing them off when they get, you know, when they, when their value drops or something, you know, that's, that's a little sketchy. And I think if anybody's in the morph game, they know how to play it by now. You know, they're not, they're not buying the low end morphs that nobody wants and you know they kind of know what combinations people are excited about and so you know it's like that never-ending quest it's like

playing pokemon you can get the latest morph and and keep up on the new combos and stuff like that and that's that's fine for some people not fine for chuck not necessarily fine for me either you know it's like but but you know it's i think it can like, but, you know, it's I think it can. I don't think it's I don't think it's fine for Cam either, because here he is trying to show animals at the zoo that people need to appreciate because they have, you know, that for the conservation value, for just the the fact that, you know, we live in concrete jungles and people don't don't interface and appreciate nature and they don't care about it because it doesn't touch their life. And here he is trying to show that and people are like, oh, well, this isn't fucking scaleless. I don't like it. Like, what? Weird.

Yeah, but I would say people like that are are probably not going to get extensive collections or or i mean and if that's what they appreciate okay good for them you know as long as it's for the right reason as long as they appreciate that animal and understand it's not just a piece of art and they need to keep it properly and things i think that's when it goes uh you know towards your side is when they start neglecting the animals if they don't care to look at something i mean that's one person i mean there's a lot of idiots out there like well yeah but but i mean so one i think in this example no no i get it but but but in this example you know this is this was a person whatever the whatever the you know whatever the

the reason is is but essentially at the core it was this animal is not flashy enough i'm used to seeing flashy animals i only care about the flashy animals when really it should be the less flashy animals do the same cool shit as the flashy animals do. You know, and. Yeah. is here I am spending my time trying to get people interested in the things these animals do and the cool behaviors and the natural history of them. And I can't because these dingleberries are only focused on the fact that the thing's not bright orange or doesn't have all of its... Well, I would say that's probably probably 75 of the people that go through the

reptile house couldn't give a crap unless they're like fighting or eating something or you know entertain me that attitude is very rampant and people that really have a a genuine interest in reptiles that's that's gonna happen whether or not they're morphs whether whether or not they they're you know ugly or whatever you know they they're morphs, whether or not they're, you know, ugly or whatever, you know, they're going to appreciate them for what they are. And if they have a mutation, you know, that makes them look a little more flashy, great. But if they don't, oh, well, that's fine too, you know. I think it just, you know, there's lots of people and there's lots of attitudes and those kind of things can change too.

Maybe that person down the road is driving out in the outback and they see a wild bearded dragon. They're like, oh, that is actually pretty cool. I didn't see it at first because it was camouflaged. And then it got all feisty and it put out its beard and its beard turned dark black and it looks really cool. So there's a lot of reasons why people appreciate things and you know i i trying to think like i think the morph game is really appealing from the excitement and almost like the you know like you're a day trader or something you're trying to it's the instant it's the instant gratification yeah yeah it's and it's kind of like it's like the social media fixer.

Yeah, what am I going to produce? And I think as you kind of get over that excitement or realize that it's just a lot of fluff, you're like, okay. But I mean to some people, that's their whole livelihood. That's what they're – and they still enjoy it and still appreciate the animals and still take good care of them like justin kabilka you know that's that's uh yeah and and that's that's okay too you know i i uh i mean it is hard to maintain that year in and year out i'm sure like that's that's got to be a challenge to produce the latest and greatest but um i don't know i don't have it in me but i don't i don't fault kabilka for for doing that kind of thing and you know i i mean

there's there's been a lot of morph carpets but it hasn't done the same thing as as the ball pythons you know people aren't people aren't diving into carpets just for the morphs. And so I think people are realizing that. And, you know, the morphs are a little more reasonably priced maybe. I mean, the Hypo is still pretty pricey. But I don't know. It's a very complex thing. And I don't think there's, like, one solid answer. Like, morph's good, morph's bad, bad you know that kind of thing so we need to see the nuance

and appreciate you know the the good points of them as you know as well as be aware of i just don't think i just don't think any species that doesn't have a morph is worse off for it yeah i mean i always can we agree there and i i will admit is if somebody comes up to the table and goes well what morph is that i just want to smack them and go, there's no morph. It's just this is what they look like. Sorry, dude. You just got to appreciate nature. I just need to make something up.

Like, oh, this is the cherry rose head morph. Yeah, but you don't want to be the guy who started the cherry rose head morph. Oh, my God. don't want to be the guy who started the cherry rose head morph oh my god but you know and and i mean for my own breeding projects i'll like my uh wheat belt stimpsons like i produced a clutch this year that i bred um a couple holdbacks together that were had a little more striping than than usual and i'm excited about the babies that have all this cool striping on them. I get geeked out by that. So am I a bad person? I don't think so.

No, but that's not morphine. That's not morphine. It's a deviation from normal, what they typically look like. You know what I mean? Yeah, but that's like, I mean. Technically, that would be unborn. Now you're starting into the ticky-tacky of this whole thing. But, I mean, I would say the jungles that we have.

Is striping a normal thing that happens in nature? Yeah. But so is albinism. So is exanthus. Yes, but do you see albinistic populations of snakes? Certain places. So the answer is no. The answer is no.

There's a population of albino squirrels in like Washington, D.C. Park. Like I saw those running around. There's also some melanistics running around too. You know, it's kind of interesting. I don't know why they are localized there. I haven't seen populations in other places. Maybe they're protected from predators because there's so many people walking around. Yeah, so there's, you know, I don't know if they, you know, like the moth thing where all the trees are black and so all the moths start turning from silver to black you know to as an adaptation to survive you know what if an albino all of a sudden is uh has an adaptive advantage are you gonna poo

poo it then or is it only worth something if it has a selective advantage in me i'm not gonna i'm not gonna i'm not gonna poo poo it unless a whole fucking bunch of them turn albino and start just taking over because that's their they become the dominant the the dominant phenotype because that's what works there there are some uh populations of toads that have you know albinism quite commonly seen in in nature you know so it depends on the species but you're right i mean normally that that would be picked off pretty quick but thank you that's all i wanted was an acknowledgement of the facts well blondie was found that that original albino darwin i think that was found as an adult wasn't it or was it younger i don't know that's a good i don't know that i i a good – I don't know that. I was going to say Blondie is still touring too, man. That's crazy.

So – I was thinking – never mind. The singer and not the – Yes. Thank you. Yeah, there you go. You went with it well. That was good. That was good. Good stuff. Look, I get it. I get what you're saying. I don't, you know, we have to be honest with the damage that they do perception-wise. And, you know, it's easy to be like, well, fucking who cares?

You know, who cares what damaged morphs do? We're destroying the planet. Yep, true. Totally true. But it doesn't make the fact that we idolize morphs it doesn't make you know uh any better or worse right like it's it's just you know i think that i think that it it matters it's not gonna go away you know people morphs are it's not going to go away. You know, people, morphs are, it's just how fucking people are wired. They want the unique thing.

They want the weird thing. They don't want, oh, that doesn't look like anything in nature. Oh, I want that. Oh, that's crazy looking. I want that. Oh, fuck, that falls off the perch whenever it tries to move. I love that. You know.

Yeah. Fucking does loop-de-loops. That's awesome. All right. Well, you know, it does look nice, though. So, I mean, did you not have a jaguar? I did. I had a couple of Jaguars until I got one.

Oh, my God. I had one that was bad. Oh, yeah. So I got one. It came in. Nick. So it was when I got my Inlands and I got a bunch of stuff. And Nick was like, hey, I have this Jag.

It's pretty neuro. He's like, if you want it, I'll totally send it to you. And Nick was like, hey, I have this. I have this jag. It's pretty neuro. He's like, if you want it, I'll totally send it to you. And I'm like, yeah, dude, cool. And then I got to see it. And I was like, oh, this is really fucking sad, dude. I remember seeing that. I didn't like that. That was my. One of Sean Christian's that was like the father of a lot of the jags in the country.

And it was it was falling off the bridge here. Big thud. And like, what was that? Oh, that's just what's his name falling off the bridge yeah oh man that's sad yeah but he ate fine and he bred fine yeah all that kind of stuff so it's just but it just goes it goes to an ethical you know to me it's like there's a there's an ethical piece to that and it's kind of like I don't you know yeah yeah you can you can like jegs if your ethics are going out the window as a morph breeder that's probably a sign you're you're not doing it right you know yeah i i just i'm like it's it's kind of like i

have no problem with morphs but when it's like you you know you kind of have to be like, yeah, it's totally twacked out and it falls off and does all this stuff that the average person would be appalled to see. Like, oh my god, that thing is suffering. Well, how do you know like maybe you're crossing into a line where it's like i don't know you know yeah you know you know yeah when you know you know you know yeah because you kind of know oh man sorry or you never know. I'm trying to smack a fly. I know. I know. That thing has been besting you for hours. Everyone in this fight has just heard like random. I just hit him direct on and he just crawled away, like flew away.

What? He just grabbed your finger and was like, not today, Julander, pushed you off and flew off. He's like the morph of the flies oh my god oh my god well he's got he's got arnold schwarzenegger's head on him oh not today julander exactly so yeah i mean i guess in in in I would say, you know, just keep it. I got him. Just keep in mind. He landed on my head. After all that. Oh, my God. That was hilarious.

Just. I wish you all could see what I saw. Anyway. Yes. Continue. Go. Yes. You were saying.

I'm going to pose myself. Yes, please do. Keep in mind, you know, kind of where morphs fit in and, you were saying. Yes, please do. Keep in mind kind of where morphs fit in and appreciate the animals for what they are. Just because they're a morph doesn't mean they are something very different or special or better than the wild types. They might have a bigger price tag affixed to them, but that will likely fall and fairly quickly. So, you know, keep that in mind if you're looking into buying morphs and things like that. But, um, I don't know, enjoy them. And we talked about this with hybrids or hybrids less than, or, or, you know,

and, and I think, you know, we can, you can appreciate a snake regardless of its genotype or phenotype or species or cross thereof. Bottom line is most of the stuff we keep in captivity is never going to be a candidate for repopulation in the wild. So as long as you enjoy it and you care about it and you'll pay attention to it for the life of the animal, I think that's fine. I mean, get what you're excited about and what you're excited about over the long term. If you stop being excited about it, find it a better home. Find somebody that will be excited about it. If that means losing your investment in huge air quotes um you know that's okay too you know the the main

thing is that we focus on the quality of life of the animal not on the value of the animal or the rarity of the animal you know because you know when it all comes down to it if the economy tanks they're all going to be worth the same amount anyway they're going to be a snake in a box that you gotta feed you know and so you know just keep that in mind i think as long as you have a healthy perspective on what a morph is then you know more power to you what say any closing you already made your closing statement you're ranting you're angry ranting it's fine it's you know come on I guess I gave you the right side didn't I

yeah you did you allowed my inner anger Chuck to come out hey that's what the people want to see lava lava spewing down the angry mountain. You're like, damn you morphs, damn you.

What's his name? Louis Black. You're the Louis Black. The Louis Black of carpet python morphs. I think that's an apt description. That's fair. Yeah, I mean, look, man, you know you know i just you know do do what makes you happy do what you do what you love it you know if if if amorphous blows your skirt up then then

blow your skirt up uh that's cool but you know i mean the things that are important um you know the the the snakes that we like they they, you know, yeah, you tell them, Ruby. You know, they have habitat. They have a place that they're from. You know, there's ecology. There's husbandry and natural history and all of these other, you know, important aspects to keeping the snakes and reptiles that we love. And I think that more than anything should be the forefront of people's attention and focus. And if a morph is taking away from that rather than informing it, then it's not a healthy situation.

And people are free to do whatever they want. And if it blows your skirt up, like I said, go for it. But don't make blind, unconscious decisions. Think about the deeper reason why we like and why we find these things important and if all you care about is flashy snakes and that's what all you then do that i guess i don't know but you'll probably get a through a shoe thrown at you when you get on my lawn that's all well said well put yeah i mean i don't know admittedly i'm i'm flipping through the uh morph segment the carpet book right yeah yeah see and and you know i nothing's screaming to me get

back into morphs like i i look at them and i'm like i can appreciate that looks cool or that that looks nice but nothing that i can't do without so i i think i'm past my point of morph excitement and i just kind of want to work with the the wild type or the i mean that flinders that nice looking animal that flinders on the cover makes me like oh my god that's insane every time i look at it every single time i look at it and it's it's I get the same way when I see brettles as well. I love looking at the brettles. I mean, a nice coastal. The guys over in Australia

are posting all these pictures of their coastal carpets they found and all the different things they're finding. I'm like, those look phenomenal. That looks really cool. Most people would go, it's just a Coastal. It's like, oh, you're missing it.

You're missing the boat. That's an insit you, Coastal. Thank you very much. And I'm going to have to sit on the porch with you and throw shoes as well because I do like the Wild Tire. I will keep all my old shoes. We will have a fucking pile, and we can just tag people going by it'll be awesome there you go all right well this is i think i hopefully uh this is kind of what you had in mind cam you can you can correct us if if we missed the boat or you know and i i don't know

i say let that girl have her little opinions and be afraid of the spiky bearded dragon like i mean she probably won't last long in this hobby and you know good riddance if she decides to leave but hopefully she changes and she realizes the value of the wild types and and can appreciate the animals for what they are and not just for their paint jobs or their reduction in scales or whatever the crap she cares about in her little bearded dragon or maybe she's just attached to her pet and she thinks everything should look like her pet you know i don't know um i guess something take off your shoe and hit her upside the head just have a shoe ready have a shoe ready i don't know if you'll keep your job but hey you

know it'd be fun just whomping them over the head it might be a it might be a bad short-term strategy but i'm just giving you options okay please do not hold this financially responsible if you decide to throw a shoe at said person. All right. Well, thanks to the folks at NPR. Eric, you're the man. Owen, you're also a man. A married man. A married man. Congratulations, Owen. I guess it's been a couple, what, a month or two now?

Yeah. It's old half for him now. He's a pro now. He should be well on his way to Little Mac and Wookiees. Oh, man. Papa. Yeah, that's good. That's good.

All right. that's good alright well check out Morelli Python Radio Network and all their great podcasts they've had some good stuff it's been a little slow since they went on vacation but I think things should pick up a little bit you know once Eric gets back and I'm trying to think

what I've listened to recently oh I got into Phil and, oh, my gosh. Nipper? No, Phil and Nipper haven't put out something. I did listen to one of theirs recently. Or maybe that, no, it was when. Oh, Phil Leitz. Phil Leitz.

Phil Leitz, yep. And. I'm terrible. Oh, he's got a wild name. It'll come to me. me a second yeah um but their podcast on the animals at home network uh roy yeah roy roy yeah um cool guys so i got to be on their their show and so that should that should be out at some point so listen for that but the other i was trying to figure out where their show was. And finally I realized, you know, because every time I'd search for it, Animals at Home Network would come up.

And then I'm like, oh, it's because they're on that network. And every third week it's their show. So, yeah, I listened to their episode with Phil. Maybe that's why people can't find us. Maybe so. I listened to their episode with Phil Tremper's why people can't find us maybe so i listened to their episode with phil tremper and and i really enjoyed that discussion phil does a lot of good stuff with some cool geckos and things so um really interesting and then they also talked to uh our old buddy ralph

uh ralph gosh dang it what is wrong with me anyway oh my god that was so good freaking heck i i'm i'm too tired um i need to go to bed i guess but um anyway check out their podcast i meant to say ron ron saint pierre Of course, yeah. Okay. How dare you? Ron is so offended right now if he's listening. Oh, my God. And if he is listening, God forgive us. There you go. Well, what did you call Justin Kobilka?

I'm pretty sure Justin Kobilka knows Brian. Yeah, I bet he appreciates that one, too. I don't think he listens. We're on one today, I bet he appreciates that one too. I don't think he listens. We're on one today, I guess. We are on one today. That's fair. Phil and Roy do a great job, and I would recommend the Animals at Home Network. And their podcast is Herpetoculture, Project Herpetoculture?

Is that what it's called? Yeah, Project Herpetoculture is that what it's called? yeah, Project Herpetoculture cool stuff yeah I think the there's a lot of good stuff out there check it out listen to Moralia Python's radio network

and check out their social media and such and you can find me at australianaddiction.com you can find me at Australian addiction.com. You can see, uh, the info for ordering books. If you want to order a book, let me know. We still have a few copies of the more complete carpet Python out freshly within the last couple of weeks. And, uh, it's, uh,

pretty good if I can't say myself, can say so myself, you cannot say it yourself. I cannot say anything myself, apparently. Okay, with that, let's get the crap out of... Oh, wait, you better say where you're from. I don't know. Do you want it? Oh, where am I from?

Indiana. Oh, yeah. Indianapolis, Indiana. The Hoosier State. There you go. Home of the Indianapolis 500, the Indiana Pacers, and the Indianapolis Colts. Look for Chuck in Indiana.

Who are struggling. No, don't find, you will not find me in Indiana. You will not. Where will they find you? Sadly, no. You can find me on Instagram at Chuck Norris wins and on Facebook at Chuck Poland. Yeah.

Cool. Well, it's been another episode. Thanks for listening, and we'll catch you next week. Stay the fuck off my lawn. Bye, Chuck. Thank you.