Reptile Fight Club - Does Field Herping make you a better keeper?

Episode Date: July 8, 2022

In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the question does Field Herping make you a better keeper?    Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to the episode of Reptile Fight Club. Welcome. I'm Justin Julander, Australian Addiction Reptiles. And with me as always, Mr. Chuck Poland. Back again, trying to win. How y'all doing? Alright, well, things going well? Things are good. Good fourth?

Yeah, good fourth. Got the honor and the privilege to do an episode of Lizard Brain Radio with Bill Bradley. And that was awesome. Man, I just love the way his mind works. And it's always such a good conversation. And, you know, we just had a good time. And then, yeah, watched Fireworks for the fourth. And I started my outdoor diamond Python cage.

So that's cool. I'm very cool. Yeah. So I've got I've got like to a two by six back panel and then like maybe like a two by almost four to two by four side panels that I i'm gonna try to do rock rock work on um so i'm trying to figure out how to do that and you know the panels are plywood so i am kind of thinking about um maybe trying fiberglass uh figuring out how to do some some molds and then uh do some some glass and resin, we work a lot at that with that stuff at work. So, um, I've got some, some pretty good up your alley. Yeah. Yep. So, um,

and then, yeah. Oh, uh, and some not so good news. Uh, I, when I was putting the plywood in my truck, I must've lifted and twisted because I hurt my back and my back is jacked. And I just want to take a minute to talk to all of you young reptile fight club enthusiasts. Always stretch before you fight and take good care of your back because I am only 45 and I am currently walking around like I am 95 years old. So be careful with your back because once you jack it up and I do this like my back and it's always some kind of like not even like crazy, you know, not benign, but not crazy. I wasn't lifting heavy weight, but it was a lifting, twisting motion. And you know, if, if you have to do back safety for work, you know, that lifting, twisting motion is what gets you every time. So, yeah. So trying

to, trying to not look like an idiot every time I have to stand up or move or get out of into the car or you know making old man noises all the time now it's it's bad it's bad it makes life pleasant getting older it's a joy yeah there's i mean it's there's no you know that people say getting into your older years are nice because you know you you you're set up in life and things but there is definitely the non-glamorous side of growing old that's for sure oh definitely yeah how about you man how what uh how was the fourth uh it was nice we uh went to my in-laws and basically just hung out in the pool all you know evening that is what 's the fireworks from the water yeah it was really a nice day uh good food, man. My brother-in-law prepared some, like, Weigo beef or something.

Weigo? Yeah. Wagyu. Wagyu. Wagyu. Wagyu. I don't know what it is. It was tasty.

Yeah, for sure. Some good bra. Wow. Yeah, it was a nice day. That's very highbrow, you know. Yeah, yeah. I didn't hear the story of where he got it, but I think it was something with work. You know, he's out wining and dining these.

He's like a salesman. Nice. He is a salesman. I like one. But so, yeah, he sometimes gets these really sweet deal or extra beef or whatever. Hookups. Yeah, yeah. So he's got the hookupsups is it hot where you're at

right now or yeah it's been pretty warm over here um i mean luckily the nights cool down nicely but uh yeah it's been pretty pretty warm a little bit of wind you said you said got to spend time at the pool like that was a real like that was a real i mean not that any time at the pool is bad but the best time at the pool is when it's hot as satan's butt so yeah and they've got a pretty sweet setup so they had like a bunch of shade umbrellas and stuff so you could sit in the shade in the water or sit in the sun so the kids had fun and the adults got to sit in the shade and yeah enjoy yeah exactly i mean i was in the pool of course you were you're course you were. You're a fish. Yeah.

Anybody who doesn't know you doesn't know what a fish you are. Yeah, yeah. So that was fun. Yeah, I kind of messed up my neck. I cricked my neck. It kind of went away last night while I was asleep, but it was nothing too strenuous or anything. I just moved it wrong or something. That whole thing, like you got the stiff neck, you got to turn your whole body. That's the worst.

Yeah, not fun. It doesn't feel good, that's for sure. Hey, I can't complain, though. I feel pretty good for, how old am I? 47? I'm about 50 years old. I'm closer to 50 now. I know, it's nuts, man. I always thought 40 was old, but 40 is not old.

No. Well, now that I'm 45, I'm like, oh, man, I feel bad I ever said anything about anybody who is my age now. I don't feel like I'm old, but there's just certain times where you're like, oh, my God. Is this what being old is going to feel like? You do feel old sometimes. You're like, oh, crap. This is not good. this is not good. This is not good.

Went and played a little pickleball with my daughter. Oh, man, that is an old person activity. It is. My mom plays pickleball. Yeah, my mom plays pickleball. We were playing singles, so it's a lot more running and diving to save the... I don't think my mom plays that kind of pickleball. She's the doubles where you stand in front of the net and just hit it back and forth. I can't even imagine my mom diving.

There would be broken hips and all kinds of bad things for that. Yeah, that's not good. It's a fun sport, though. I think it covers a nice range of ages. You can still play, but yeah, I get a little intense. That's good. I think it covers a nice range of ages. You can still play. But, yeah, I get a little intense. That's good. I'm a competitive guy. Don't have to tell me, man.

You almost pushed me down trying to run for that snake. I know how you are. You're not getting there first. Take that. Pow. Ah. Push me down the cliff. I dare you.

Yeah, it bleeds into a lot of things but oh i know i that's the reason you know i want to stay in good shape is so you can be one so i can eat stuff i want to eat but also you can so i can to the herb when i'm older and you know and and still be able to flip rocks or you know whatever or whatever. Or push Chuck down a cliff. Get that herping in. Yeah, there you go. How are them babled coastals doing? They're doing really well.

I've gotten four, maybe five of them to eat. I think almost all of them have shed. Some really, I mean, I think I sent you a picture not too long ago, but really some really nice reds in there, man. That's cool. Yeah, pretty stoked. I love the reds. And, you know, Camas is the founding red line from Luke Snell,

who back in the day produced some of the nicest reds that people had seen. So not surprised there's awesome reds in there. But, yeah, pretty stoked. Yeah, just, you know, starting to feed snakes around here again. And getting, you know, I'm actually starting uh all of the tracy a under rats now so i'm gonna really probably put some size on them this year a little bit do they switch over pretty well like they don't have any issues i haven't had you know the hardest the hardest thing was the ones so it's weird like i i have had really no feeding issues once they started. And I would say, yeah, I would say once, you know, and I would say Tracy in general, once they're kind of adjusted and and acting, you know, a little bit, you know, well established there, their food smashers like any scrub.

So I've never really had major issues with feeding. I had a few babies in, in each clutch that were tough, tough feeders, uh, just didn't, you know, just didn't want to eat, um, had to assist feed a couple, two of the first clutch. Uh, and you know, they, they, they were, you know, they would, they would eat the assist feeding eat, and then eventually they started eating, and now they're fine. So, yeah, I mean, pretty typical. Once they go, they go. Yeah, pretty typical story. But, yeah, once they go, they kind of go.

And thankfully, I don't want to have blackhead problems or some of the problems you have with, you know, ant hills or, you know, ant tradition. And you started off on the blackheads and no, yeah, they didn't take on their first, you know, try. That would be, you know, I feel like that would be kind of the payback gift for only getting two eggs is if they both ate on the first shot. Yeah, they just start eating on the first shot. That would be like all right okay we'll take this you're fine yeah yeah so you know we'll see how it goes but i'll probably

resort to assist feeding here soon they didn't seem to have like the big belly that everybody describes and you know i've seen in pictures like they didn't have like a huge fat belly when they hatched. I don't know what that means, but it'll be interesting to see how that goes. And you didn't cook them really hot or really cold? You were pretty middle of the road? Yeah. I mean, I set it at 89, but I think it was actually like 87, 88, somewhere around there. I need to get more. just put thermometers everywhere, you know, have one in each nesting box or something. Or incubation box.

You didn't pick Jordan's brain at all when we were out, huh? I know, I should have. Yeah, you should have asked. Should have done that more. I mean, I've been texting him and asking him lots of questions. I figured. Yeah. I figured.

Oh, yeah, he's the man. Of course, yeah. I know. Oh, yeah, he's the man. Of course, yeah. He gets high praise from me. I did start offering to the Antaresia. So I have a clutch of eastern stems that hatched out and that are all set up individually, and half of them took on the first try so yeah it started out nicely uh with the eastern stems so um i've got some westerns that i just set up this last weekend

and so hopefully they'll they'll go as well the westerns seem to be a little bit trickier than the easterns but you know once they get going they're fine yeah they're not too bad there's a few tricks that work with westerns that i you know haven't really haven't really worked globally you know they worked really well for the westerns but not most of the other stuff so it's kind of weird how that works you know you get certain tricks that work for some and not others but what do you do you snakes you move forward and you don't look at the gift horse in the mouth right there you go there you go yeah did i did i talk about the hosmer eye last time uh i was checking the cage and there was one missing yeah so she's been she's still in the

cage and she's and you have your eye dead on her now exactly now i make sure that door is shut but definitely she she's i'm pretty sure she remembers being out and so she's looking for a way to get back out so yeah it's kind of funny that way but what do you do i finally got them all set up i got the three gurney cages and and the uv light so they come out and bask under the uv I just have it come on for a couple hours a day in the morning and then the evening. I don't know if that's the right way to do it, but that's the way I do it. What kind of UV are you using? Are you using the Arcadia? Yeah, I've got a four-foot fixture with the bulb.

So it runs across all three cages of a Gurney. Yeah. I like that when you're using multiple cage setups. It's kind gurney. Yeah. I mean, I, and the baby, uh, I like that when you're using multiple cage setups, it's kind of nice. Yeah. And so, yeah, I've just got it on the timer to come on for a few hours.

You run in like a 6%. Um, I think it's, uh, a nine or 14, something like that. 14 is the, like the,

well, I guess it's not, I don't think it's the desert. That's like the desert extreme one or whatever. I think I got the middle of the road. I didn't get, so it don't think the desert that's like the desert extreme one or whatever i think i got the middle of the road okay i didn't get so it's like a 12 it's like a 12 yeah i think it's like 6 8 12 maybe 14 maybe i'm maybe i'm wrong there maybe it was the eight i i i got the one that was recommended for you know type type species i mean they do pretty good they do pretty good with They do pretty good with.

Sure. And they've got some distance under it, so it's not too close. And they're using the rock wall faces? Yeah, yeah. It's pretty cool. It's kind of cool to watch them cruise across there. I threw the tree skinks in their new cage, and they went right up the. I made some kind of fake tree limbs that are attached to the back wall.

You know, they're foam and then with tile grout over them and made to look like real trees or whatever. It worked out pretty well. Yeah. I put some real cork bark on there so it would kind of have like – You know, they could kind of go under the bark a little bit. I don't know how well that will function, but they can climb up it, and they've been enjoying it. They've been crawling around. I threw in a little branch with some oak leaves in the depressa cage the other day just to give them something new to check out, a little enrichment.

I'm going to start doing that with the others as well, just give them a little branch of leaves or something. And you're not doing any type of uh like a bioactive in there right like it's not not really no it's not really set up for bioactive but i you know most people like most people think you throw a few uh pill bugs in there what you know it's a bioactive but you know it's more than more than that it is and these are these are probably a little on the small side for a bioactive. I mean, they have a lot of height, but not a lot of depth. Not as deep. Yeah.

The floor space is higher than wider, I guess you'd say. Yeah, it's fun. And I've got the Wyze cameras or whatever turned on it, so I can open up the Wyze app at work and watch my i was doing that while i was waiting for my wife is she in there is she in there okay she's in there all right cool oh yeah she was doing like the treadmill trying to find a way out of the cage you know crawling on the glass or whatever it's pretty funny but yeah she's she's looking to get back out i guess i don't know why it It's not like there's great conditions out there for her.

But I don't know. Maybe that will be part of our discussion today. Reptiles making good choices? Some thoughts on that. I don't know. Maybe. Who's to say? Yeah.

No, I had an interesting discussion with Mike Plank. Nice. He keeps a lot of agurnia. So I was calling to ask him if I should leave the baby in with the parents, the baby depressa. And he thought that would be appropriate, you know, because there's only one baby. He said if there were more, maybe separate them out.

But where there's just one, it'd probably be beneficial to have. And what, they just beat the babies up if there's too many of them or what? I don't know. I think it's more of like they're a communal lizard, so they kind of like the presence of others or something like that. When we found the Cygnetos, they were together as a pair in a single rock outcrop in Western Australia, so that was kind of interesting to see that in action in the wild

where they were both under the same rock, you know, right next to each other. So, you know, they're more of a communal lizard. A lot of the agurne are, especially some species are very communal. You know, the Gidgee skinks and those kind of things. But, yeah, some are less than others. My standing. We did find some depressa in close proximity or in the same tree crack, it seems. But they seem to be more find one here, find one there kind of thing. Yeah, my standing day geckos are a little communal.

And it's funny because I have five juveniles in one big eco. And two of them, it's almost like they pair up. There's two sets that are together all the time, and one of them will like put his pad over the other one like they're like buddies. And it's just – it's hilarious, man. They have such funny personalities. But it's neat. It's neat to see those kind of behaviors when you kind when you kind of are like man they they like totally pair bond and i mean i've seen like almost like pair bonding kind of behavior in other you know stuff that you wouldn't kind of think like you

know um i i feel like my tracy a prefer what you know one male uh the female prefers one male over the other um and they tend to hang out all the time whereas it's not so much with the other but once in a while you know so i'm like is that a thing is that like me i don't know i don't know i don't know anthropomorphism could be yeah could be i don't know though you know i think definitely there are definitely some social lizards and and those day geckos definitely appear to be social animals. Like you find them in the wild in colonies. Yeah. That was kind of the fun thing about it.

And it's interesting, though, because I would say Grandus is not a communal, not at all. Like you can keep them in pairs, and that's it. Or they just have a larger you know yeah comfort zone you know yeah i mean so and if they're on a 60 foot tree they can have you know five or six individuals but they have a little more of a but they're definitely very place to escape yeah very territorial um so if you know if it makes sense territorial wise they're probably okay but we in captivity you do not want to do that and yeah that was fun you know in hawaii like we were in this resort with my in-laws and i spent more time probably looking at the geckos on the on the trees and stuff but yeah you'd see a male and several females

kind of all just hanging out together and you know they'd interact a little bit or chase each other a little or you know but they'd know, hang out pretty close to each other. So I think I got a picture of like six or seven in the same shot, you know, all on one tree next to like a beach chair. You know, they're just very comfortable with people and, you know, they have their comfort zone. You get too close and they take off. And you wonder what, you know, being in a cage does for their territory. I mean, it would be the difference of having a territory where you could let others come and go from rather than having a restricted territory of four walls and then something gets in there.

You know what I mean? I would view that differently if I were them. So I could see why. Yeah, that's the trick, I guess. That was kind of part of this conversation with Mike Plank, was trying to decide if keeping them outside was better than keeping them inside. Because a lot of times you keep stuff outside and it just turns neurotic and it thinks everything's out to get them, so it acts more wild and hides a lot. You don't know if that's going to be better

or worse for breeding if you're worried about that aspect of it. He was thinking that they did better outdoors. They had babies more often. They ate probably less food outdoors, which was interesting to me you know that they would do better out outside in a in an outside setting um now he's in southern california i don't know if it would work the same out here and i couldn't keep him outside for you know the majority of the year but yeah pretty cool and i'm pretty sure he brings him in if if weather is well

when you're doing really really well with them in if weather is too rough. Well, when you're doing really, really well with them and you just have too many, you can send me some and I'll let you know how it goes. You can put them outdoors. That's right. That's right. And then just send me the babies every year. We could work that out. We could work that out.

Yeah, that'd be fun to have. I mean, I think that's kind of like a lot of herb keepers dreams is to keep stuff in an outdoor setting you know just because you can do more outdoors as far as making a naturalistic enclosure seeing more wild type i think the trick for me is is keeping as much stuff outside as i possibly can without my neighbors calling animal control on me that's the trick that's gonna be you just have to make it look like a compost that's right you know yeah turn a commune into a compost yeah compost bin yeah exactly just like oh it's my compost bin i don't know what you're talking about oh there was a snake on there? How interesting. It was probably a gopher snake. Cow king, probably.

Who knows? Who knows? They're around. Good times, good times. Well, that's cool. I'm glad. Do you have any plans to, are you moving all the babies? Are you keeping any back for your?

For the coastals? Yeah, coastals. I'm probably going to hold, I'll probably hold a pair back. I've had a couple people contact me wanting to do some trades. So, yeah, I want to – Camus has got to be getting up there in age, right? Yeah, he's pretty old, pretty old. We'll see. I mean, yeah, I mean I definitely want to hold back just so I can keep that going if something were to happen to either one of the adults.

But, yeah, I mean – and, you know, man, I feel like I got to buy new caging for all the tracier that I'm keeping to breed. And past that, I feel like where's all the extra room that I have? I don't have a lot of extra room for tons of snakes. So it's kind of like as much as I'd want to hold, you know, I want to do that like, you know, breeder thing where you're like, I'm going to hold this back. I'm going to hold that back. I'm going to keep this.

This will be great. I got this plan, that plan. It's like I got to like reel in some of my, either that or I got to get a warehouse out here in Southern California and figure that out. Yeah, that wouldn't be too expensive. Yeah, no. I'll just cut my arm off and hand it to them.

With the Tracy, is the weather where you're at similar to what they experience in the wild? Or do they need more of a tropical, humid-type setting? Could you keep them outside, I guess, is my question. Oh, I see what you're saying. I mean, I bet I could. It probably wouldn't be ideal. I think the carpet python is probably much more suited to being kept outdoors in southern california

than than you know somalia but at the same time like i i kind of feel like those big-bodied snakes and i by saying big-bodied i don't necessarily mean like gigantic constrictor but they can take kind of you know some cooler temperatures as long as temperatures as long as you kind of have some – a pad or something to offset that. I think I could keep them outside. How successful I would be doing that, I don't know. of uh of you know kind of equatorial steady state like you know roughly that's 79 degrees plus or minus and you know when they're when when they need heat maybe they're at 85 but nothing you know nothing um nothing that i would say you know it's it's more of a flat temp kind of idea in that room. And it works really well with the day geckos and a lot of my gecko stuff.

So that's primarily, you know, one half of my snake room is pretty much going to end up all being Tracy. The other half will probably be the geckos that I have. And and yeah, so we'll see. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I guess I could try to flip it up and, uh, start trying to see, you know, different if, if, if they will breed in different temperature regimes, but I'm not really interested in doing that just yet. I, I, I feel like I need to take it back to, um, yeah, take it back to 2019 and get this thing going again. If anyone, you're in the best position to try that out and see if it – up in the exact same situation or in the exact same room.

So that's the room they're used to. That's what they know. That's what they've grown up with. I feel like I could take those babies maybe if they hadn't or even if they had and put them in a different kind of thermal regime that's a little bit different than that. And they probably would breed because they're not – we're dealing with first-generation captive-bred animals, not wild-caught stuff. That's kind of my assertion is that they're probably a little more readily willing to breed in a little bit different of an environmental setting. And obviously, you know, Southern California and inside of a house and maybe in another room, my house probably isn't so crazy of a temperature change that it would be like, oh, this is a no go,

you know. So it wouldn't be like even if I did, you know, put them in a bedroom or something, I think they would be fine doing that. But it just doesn't make sense to me if, you know, that's what they've experienced growing up their whole life. And then when you go to go breed them, you're going to stick them somewhere else into a different kind of thermal regime. And they're going to be like, what's going on here? What is this? Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

You know what I mean? So, um, that's, that's kind of my thought. But at the same time, if these babies ever do leave, when I do start moving stuff, my concern is the ones that have grown up here that leave here, will they do as well versus ones that I hatch out and then sell shortly after I establish them. I would expect those to do better in other people's hands. It's just hard because it's like – not that they have like a grossly fragile stage. But I feel like there is definitely a stage. And I think most snake keepers who know this will agree with me. There is a stage where your snakes start to take off and they're much're they're much more robust than they are when they're first kind of

hatched out you know what i mean sure yeah yeah that makes a lot of sense and i you know i think if you're if you can uh you know i i would say if you're going to experiment you know maybe start with something a little younger so yeah putting you're putting them outside, put them outside when they're, you know, well-established but young enough that they're a little more malleable, I guess. So, yeah, that's the trick, I suppose. Yeah, I don't know, man. If I stuck those things outside, I bet they'd be demons. They'll get nice and warm and you'll get all kinds of attitudes out of them.

For sure. They could be crazy. Oh, yeah. Be snappy monsters. Yeah, that's cool. Well, you ready to fight or do we have anything else to discuss? No, I think. Cut this chit-chat crap.

Oh, wow. Somebody sounds like they're ready to stomp some hiney. Ready to throw down. Yeah. Well, let's introduce our topic for today. So, you know, we've kind of talked about out-herping and stuff. We're running ideas by each other but kind of the idea that if you go herping a lot it can make you be a better keeper because you see a lot of

different things you know and and you can be a better herpetoculturalist if you're a you know field herper so that'll be our topic for today yes field herping can make you a better keeper or not so much you know i don't know so what do you think let's should we fight about that yeah yeah i'm down to fight about that let's let's get to the uh ceremonial coin toss justin has it ready now you won the the for nothing coin toss last week so let's see what we got this week. So call it. Oh, I say that's heads. It is tail.

Oh, I felt like, I felt like that's all right. I feel like I know what you're going to get it. I did too, but I'm going to, I'm going to side with the pod father and say, yes,

field herping makes you, uh, you know, can give you insights, make you a better field or keeper. Yeah. insights, make you a better keeper. I'm cracking my knuckles as we speak. All right, well, if you're ready to go, you give it your best shot. Why don't you start us out?

All right. Well, I mean, I guess it kind of what your, what your field herping like. So if, if what you keep is, you know, Australian carpet pythons and you're out, you know, herping rattlesnakes and lizards and things like that, maybe, maybe the experience that you're getting isn't as directly targeted. So it makes more sense if you're a keeper of Australian stuff and you go to Australia and herp, then maybe that makes some sense to me, right? But just going out and herping doesn't always inform

a better outcome with your captive keeping. I think that's probably how I'd lead. Okay, okay. Well, I mean, granted, yeah, there's something to that, I would say. And I think you want to make sure you're comparing apples to apples. But at the same time, I mean,

there's this thing called convergent evolution where you have similar conditions on, you know, completely different continents that drive the same, you know, adaptations and, you know you could maybe observe a you know an ant eating desert lizard and and say okay it's probably similar to what a what a uh ant eating desert lizard in another continent would do and you know maybe there's some subtle differences that you might learn later but i think for the most part you can say, okay, this is an active diurnal lizard. Maybe it's an agamid, but you compare it with like a collared lizard, a crotophytis or something, and try to keep it similarly. you know species on a different continent that may be similar in their characteristics or requirements to to the ones that you like in another country if you're not able to get over to that other country but i would agree you know if you're gonna you know keep animals you want to get to where those animals are and so it definitely would would be helpful helpful seeing kind of what kind of conditions they're out in.

You know, that's kind of the big, I think Frank Reedy's did that very well where he went and took a temp gun with him, you know. And everybody was keeping monitor lizards at like 80 degrees with maybe a 90 degree hot spot. And everybody thought if you got above 100 that it would cook them and he went out and he said these rocks are like 150 degrees in the sun and the monitors are sitting on the rocks so I'm going to give my monitors a 150 degree basking

spot on their basking spot and they turned into monitor lizards and they acted like monitor lizards and they bred very well and all these things. So it made a lot of kind of advances. And I think there's something to be said for that, looking at those correlations in the right scale of things,

in the right scope of things, and not being too specific. Like, I don't think you need to be careful because, you know, correlation is not causation, right? And so, you know, because something is like something that is here doesn't mean that it does exactly the same thing because the environment that it comes from is similar, but maybe not the same. So you have to be careful and maybe it gives you a broader idea, a larger, better way to think. But when you get down into the minutia of things, oftentimes that's when stuff would break down for me in you know, in my mind of, you know, that's when you really probably have trouble saying, ah, this, you know, this does this because that does that. Like, well, maybe, maybe.

Well, I'd go back to that Frank Reedy's example. He kind of claims that he learned all these things from kings kingsnakes and and and kept kingsnakes different than anybody else i've heard of keeping them you know he kept them in these almost like a trash can with a cage on top so they could go down and burrow down and you know have like kind of thermal regulate by going up or down and see but i think but i think conditions similar to but i think kingsnakes taught frank and i don't mean to speak for frank and i'm not trying to say this is what it is but but it sounds to me like he learned that the thermal you know regulation regimes of king snakes is much different than we thought so that got him

on to north american lizards to think well maybe we're wrong about that too and then he went out with a temp gun and started blowing everybody's stuff up on the north american uh lizard keepers page you know what i mean like i i and i think he's no i think he's right i think he's right but you don't also don't see frank posting on the australian veranids page about north american lizards right because although he does broadly well i know but broadly pissed everybody off in the monitor world but broadly the point he makes about heating you know monitors translates to north american lizards in general right for the most part is what is kind of where he's you know or what you're saying right no what

i was saying is that he learned from king snakes i get that how to keep how to keep monitor lizards you know that to to and he kept him very similarly right gave him much higher temps than they needed and much lower temps than they needed and they did very, very well. that were way outside what our accepted norms were, took him into monitors where he may have observed something and said, ah, this is the same way. And then he started experimenting with that. And lo and behold, he had great success, which the Frank Reitz and a lot of people have started to challenge the way we keep

a lot of this stuff that we have now thermally and oh by the way a lot of it likes it a lot cooler than we thought you know some of it likes it a lot warmer than we thought so boom uh you know a breakthrough but again you know you can't say that uh because That because he was field herping king snakes, all of a sudden he understands how. Now, one led him to the other and he had to figure that out. But I don't know, man. I think you get yourself into trouble doing that. And that's the case. You can start making all kinds

of assertions and try them out and when they're successful you say ah see yes field herping did this for me because I noticed this in a rosy boa and I applied it to you know Chuck Wallace and there we go we're off to the races because they're both found out in the same kind of area. Like, well, okay, but I mean, maybe you just stumbled into that. Maybe you're not really making, you know, maybe that's not as fair of a... I guess I'm talking generalizations, right? I mean, you can probably have a broadly applicable idea that applies to reptiles in general. I'll give you that. The benefit of giving them a range of choices.

And that's very difficult to do in a tub or a four-by-two cage. And so I think a lot of people say, well, great, but I don't have a room-sized cage for all the animals I keep or whatnot, which they do in nature. They have unlimited space to some extent that they can choose a lot of different places to go. And so I think that's the key there that I was trying to bring up is that, you know, you can have a broadly applicable thing that you observe in nature and say, well, these things come from the same area. What keeps them in this spot? You know, it seems like they don't come out during the full sun. So why are they in such a hot desert, you know, environment or whatever?

So they, you know, kind of find, well, a lot of the, you know the lizards that are out in the middle, they're not out in the middle of the day either. They're not enjoying the full heat of the sun. They'll sit in shade or they'll sit in a rock crack or something like that. But at the same time, couldn't you inform the reverse of that where you say, well, I saw this chuckwalla out on the rock in the middle of the day. Therefore, chuckwallas must just like to sun themselves in the heat of the day all day

and that must be what that is. So the idea that just because you find something situationally does not necessarily mean that that is the situation that the animal prefers. It may just have been. So being careful in the observations that you make, that one observation does not support a conclusion, but multiple observations of the same behavior over time may lead you to a better conclusion, right? Yeah. And I think that's the strongest argument for your side is that a lot of times when we field herp, we get a glimpse of one animal for an hour or two if you're really dedicated

to sticking around that animal. And you're seeing them like on the roadside or, you know, on a rock or something. And you can watch them for a bit and kind of learn something. But unless you're getting out there a lot, you're probably not getting a lot of useful information, I guess. So I would say the more you herb, the more information you can gather and potentially the better way you can keep them. Yeah, and I just think a lot of animal behavior tends to be dependent on what's happening at the time, right? So, you know, animals are gonna, you know, maybe more be apt to be on the road when it's cooler and they can kind of catch some of that extra heat off the road later.

That would make you think that they're more active at night or that they're seeking out, you know, I don't know what you, whatever conclusion you might want to draw from that when, when, you know, in fact they, you know, they're, they're not apt to be on the road. It's just, you were out there at a time when it was cooler and they were just looking, you know, they just happened to be by the road and the road was warmer than anything else at the time. So that's why you found them. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know.

I don't feel like I gave a good example there. But no, I mean, you're right. Like, it's just a snapshot. So, you know, reading too much into it can be just as dangerous as reading too little into it. That's what I'm saying. You know? Yeah. to it that's what i'm saying you know yeah so so if we if we take um our observations and those of others and you know you can kind of combine combine information and and that's why you know

it's citizen science is useful and and publishing observations is is useful and why journals like you know herptical herpetological review um why that has a section in there for just people to to publish a very you know couple paragraph um publication on their observation of uh in a given situation so it may just be a one-off but you know the more people that observe these things the more information we can glean you know so, so, and, you know, animals are dynamic, so they may change their behaviors over the years, and they may change their behaviors during their lifetime. So it's definitely important to consider that. And so, you know, but I think the person who's out there watching them day in and day out, kind of like a Frank Reedy's type, you know,

that's out there watching his desert iguanas. His interpretations may be strange to some or maybe off, but I think he's gleaning a lot of information that could be very helpful to keeping them in captivity. And he's successful at desert lizards because he's out in the desert watching desert lizards. Well, and I think if you – and this is just me, and I'm not a strict Frank Reedy's follower or whatever, but I think – I'm not either. Right.

I'm just saying like I think Frank's out there every day. He's making these observations, and he's posting all the time. So he's almost like a running – like kind of a – like conclusions in flux while it's happening. And he's making these – and so he draws in some of these like really good kind of hard conclusions because he's out there a lot. And he sees certain things where he's like, yes, I've seen this a hundred times and that's, you see, there's Ruby, but, uh, you know, this is what I see. And people are like, oh, okay. But then he sees something, you know, he's seen it before and he says, and this is this. And people are like, yeah, but he's seen it. So in his mind, it's, you know, and so like, I think, I guess I'm trying to say, like, you can almost see kind of the, the leisurely kind of conclusions, which may be premature, right along in with those kinds of things. And I think that's partially why a lot of people give Frank so much crap is because some stuff he's probably pretty right on. He's probably right on the head with it.

Some of it may be, you know, people who've seen a lot of it are like, I don't know, man. That's what you're seeing. I don't see that. I think it's his delivery and challenge folks and just say, Oh, you know, you don't know what you're talking about. You know, he's very blunt and very, you know, he challenges anything anybody says. So that can be very frustrating. It's like talking to me sometimes, I guess. But, um, we, we, uh, I, I guess thinking scientifically, you know, what you need to do is formulate a hypothesis and say, this is what I think is going on. And then you need to make more observations to see if it supports your hypothesis or refutes your hypothesis.

You have to be open to other individuals who come up with observations that either support or refute your hypothesis as well. And so that's kind of where that, uh, uh, you know, things, maybe some, some of the things Frank does breaks down a bit where he's, he's challenging people too much or, or refuting their observations prematurely when he should be maybe considered. But, but that's, and that's what I'm saying is because, because Frank has something he's seen that makes him convinced that they're, they don't know what they're talking about or that he is right and they're wrong. And ignoring other people's – you're kind of – I don't know. That's where it gets into kind of a dicey thing of like, no, I've seen that. It's a thing.

Like is it? Is it really just because you've seen it, it's a thing? Or, like, you know, I mean, that's where kind of that, you know, making observations from the wild and then applying it unilaterally, I think can get a little weird when it's like, I've seen that, but I haven't seen it enough to say that. Yeah, I guess my, you know, counter to that is that he did it. He did it in captivity. You know, he took first, you know, king snakes or whatever.

You know, I wasn't around for that phase of his captive breeding, but I definitely watched the monitor breeding, and, man, he was knocking it out of the park with monitors where before nobody had really done that well with them sure you know especially like multi-clutching them and things so he he proved that by demonstrating that those key concepts that he'd learned in the field not necessarily all from monitors but from maybe desert lizards in general applied fairly broadly and so he kept monitors all of this, you know, pretty much all the same. And, and granted he had more success with some than, than others.

You know, he probably had, he was probably trying to fit all of them into too narrow of a box maybe, but you know, the proof was in the pudding. Sure. I mean, and you know, it's, it's, it's like lot of it. It's like, where did his giant insights come from? His giant insights came from heating and feeding, which he did from observation. Those are two very broad things that he noticed that really changed the game. And whether he noticed that in kingsnakes and then applied

it to veranids or or however but well he noticed in kingsnakes and then he went to australia and noticed in veranids and saw the abundance of prey items at certain times of the year and it's one of those things where it's like through through that observation he made a very broad but but very profound insight yeah which is kind of surprising that he was the first person to really make that insight. But here we are. And he may not have been the first person to make that insight, but he was the first herpetoculturalist to make that insight and apply it to his keeping and have success beyond what was enjoyed before that time.

So, I mean, that's kind of the, you know, the idea kind of behind my side is that, you know, you can make those observations and apply the correct ones and you'll be successful in keeping in captivity as well. And, you know, I think you're kind of talking like if you go out in the wild and you see this and you do it, you will be wildly successful. You may enjoy some more success. You may have an insight that helps you do better or keep better. But you may still struggle in the same time because this is – it's not just like you take an observation from the wild, you bring it home, and then there's success. There's a whole bunch of other stuff that happens when you're breeding anything that can affect your outcomes.

And so I think just saying like, well, you go out and you – there's people who I know who field herp and have crap years. Like they just don't breed anything. Is that, is that the environment that year and the, where they live? Is that, that they just weren't paying attention that year? Is it that, you know, um, they're, they, they learned all the wrong things from field herping and, and in Australia, you know, like, like, like. Or insufficient data, you know? So if they had more data... You've got to have the stat sig, man. Okay.

So if they were stat sig, then they would be hugely successful, but since they're insignificantly, you know, they're in sig... Yeah. Then they cannot enjoy the wild success which waits the stat SIG herper. And I'm not saying, you know, of course there are book learners. That's what you're asserting there is they just need to be. There are book learners. But, you know, a lot of people learn better by kind of getting out there

and experiencing it, doing it, being in the environment kind of thing. And our glorious podfather has made some key observations and said that this has upped his game and changed his keeping regimen and things. Yeah, but he went over to Australia and he saw diamond pythons but did he produce diamond pythons this year i don't know if he saw diamond i don't know if he has sufficient observations ah okay i don't know you know i i don't know i don't even know if he's been in the sydney area so you know that i think that's probably high on his list to go see. So clearly he just lacks the firsthand experience in the wild. And that is why he's struggling with it. I don't have enough firsthand experience in the wild with carpet pythons.

I've seen a handful in the wild. But I wouldn't say that. Yet you had a good year. The snapshot. Yeah, I mean, I don't. I mean, I don't, I mean. So, and you, and you out of anybody is carpet python herper extraordinaire compared to a lot of people in the States. And you would think you of all people. I know.

But you would think by your rationale, you of all people would be, you know be having the best. But didn't this like the first year you've actually produced carpet pythons for a while because you've had some – didn't do so good last year? And that wasn't because you didn't go over to Australia and do herping. It's because you moved and you had a crap year. So I hear what you're saying, but don't over-represent your position in this. Oh, I'm not. I'm saying, yeah, I don't have, I was saying I don't have sufficient observation.

Even though I've seen several in the wild, it's not like I've studied, you know, I've read more than I've observed. Let's put it that way. So I'm not saying you can't learn this thing through the book, but I think a lot of times the book learning clicks a lot better when you're seeing it in action, when you're seeing it in the field. And so that's, you know, that's kind of my, field herping definitely increases your understanding

of book learning, I would say. It's understanding of, of book learning. I would say, I think field herping, I think field herping challenges your conventional wisdom about what you're keeping. I don't necessarily think that it, it always makes you better at breeding or I think, I think you're, you're more open to ideas that because you have

experiences or you see something, but, but I don't know that, you know, I don't know that you're going to go, go out into the Sydney area, find diamond pythons and come away like, that's it. I know how to breed these fuckers. got this and and then you have success you know what i mean i don't think it works like that you can go out and you can it's you know you can interact with them in the wild you can see the situations you can take temperatures you can kind of make some like okay i i i have i have some significant inclinations into their their physiology their you know reproductive habits but by no means does that mean that you're going to be able to just take that home because you went and did that and translate that into success but but you can i mean you can you can formulate a lot

better hypotheses in the field than you can sitting on your couch, I would counter. You know what I mean? Like you get there and you go, I bet this is significant or I bet this is important. And you can go home and prove it. You can go home and try it out and see if it makes a difference. Like the old Terry Phillip adage of prairie rattlesnakes. I knew shoveling snow was coming up in this. You got to have the shoveling snow quote.

Because, yeah, that's not a condition. Well, but I mean, the temperature. It's not a condition in the wild? Colder temperatures could be important. It's not a... It is. And I'm just saying, if you had a large enough cage and you let it snow in there, you'd probably be okay. And maybe if prairie rattlers had arms, they would shovel snow into their cage.

How do you know, sir? That's exactly what I'm driving at. I knew that's what you were driving at. You need to attach arms to snakes to see if they will shovel snow. Now we're getting somewhere. Of course you can misinterpret things. And I think a good example of that is Gila monsters, where most zoos, and maybe this is just because they're displaying them and they want people to be able to see them. But Gila monsters spend the majority of their time in a tight little crack underground.

And so if you're keeping them in a zoo, that's not very exciting for the viewer to get a glimpse of a Gila from deep inside of a crack. And so they have to find creative ways to try to keep them. But if they want to breed them, they take them back in the back and they put them in a little tub. They shove them in a crack. It's tight and small. And they go, here's how you breed Gila monsters, and that's kind of the secret to breeding Gila monsters is you replicate that wild natural history element of their keeping and stuff. But I'm sure it took a lot of people a lot of hours to observe that and say they're mostly down in a crack. But they don't –

And they try it in captivity, and it helps. But, but they, so they'll stick them in a tub, which is tight and small and they'll feel safe. And that will, that will put them, you know, in a, in better conditions to breed right now. Are they, you know,

creating a, a, a giant limb crack so that they can shove them in there. And then they're like, ah, I'm in a limb crack. Now I can breed. That's all I needed was a good lemm crack,

and now I'm going to reproduce. You know what I'm saying? I think... Well, you tell me where that came from. Lemm cracks? The successful breeding of Gila monsters using tight tubs. Where did that come from? I'm not arguing the fact that the natural history informs the success.

What I'm arguing is that the insight comes from, ah, they like tight spaces. They're often found in tight spaces. When we try to breed these, tight spaces is important, not misconstruing the idea that ah these guys are found shoved into rocks or they're down in burrows they will only breed when they're shoved in a rock or down in a burrow no they'll breed in a tub or whatever but you have to put them in the right kind of situation in order to make it successful i.e don't don't make the condition too specific, right? Make the insight at the proper level of, ah, they like tight spaces, and then figure out how you make those tight spaces, right?

Sure, how to provide that. But it all comes back to what was observed in the wild by a field person. Absolutely. We're same page there. We're same page there. We're same page there. I just – there's – you – I guess what I'm saying is you could get those people who are like, oh, I am going to breed Gila monsters and I went out and went to Arizona and I saw them shoved into these tight rocks. So the only way you breed Gila monsters is by shoving them into these tight rocks in captivity to get them. No, no, no. You missed the insight.

I mean, you hit it, but you walked right into it rather than catching it before it slapped you in the face. Right? Does that make sense? I think so. I'm agreeing with you. Okay. I'm agreeing with you. You can just. But you're saying it could be misconstrued. It could agreeing with you. Okay. I'm agreeing with you. You can just...

But you're saying it could be misconstrued. It could be misconstrued. You could provide the wrong element and say, this is what's important. I'm not saying... Yeah, I'm saying that you could be too specific and you could say that, ah, you know, these things have to be... It has to be a crack, right? Yeah, exactly. You get so fixated on the situation that you find it in that you miss the bigger point of why it's there.

Sure. That make sense? Yeah. Okay. bring up this topic because I think this has been very applicable to my, um, herpetocultural experiences. When I go out field herping and I find a species in the wild that I keep in captivity, it increases my excitement and drive to keep them properly and keep them

happy and, and make, you know, almost try to replicate what I saw in the wild in my herp room, you know. So I basically have that experience reliving itself in my herp room that I had in the wild. And, of course, that's very difficult because we don't have the unlimited space and, you know, that kind of thing. But, you know, it's really made me up my game and try to keep my stuff better and and it's also kind of taken my excitement away from the the morphs and

the you know irregularities and makes me appreciate the wild type because that's what i saw in the wild and i saw how they you know integrated into their environment and they blended in with the rocks and things like that and i and i've heard eric say this quite a bit too that you know, integrated into their environment and they blend it in with the rocks and things like that. And I, and I've heard Eric say this quite a bit too, that, you know, that you, you appreciate what you have a lot more after you see it in the wild and, and, and get excited about it. And so I think that, you know, definitely corresponds with an increase in, uh, better care and concern for the animal and things like that. So I think that's another benefit of field herping in regards to keeping in captive. I like that you say that until the one hour point where you're like,

all right, he can't even argue this. I'm just going to hit him with it at the one hours last week. I know we did. We would not shut up last week, but I'm not, I'm not trying to argue this for two hours, but no, And I can't you know, I mean, look, I'm never going to argue against anything that increases somebody's, you know, excitement for something that they keep because they went out and see it in the wild. Like I kind of think that's part of the whole point of herping is is to go out and see something that maybe, you know, maybe not that you don't necessarily keep. I don't necessarily keep rattlesnakes, but I'd love to go see them in the wild. But at the same time, being in the environment where a snake that you keep comes from

and you're just kind of in it, right? And, you know, yeah, I can't really say anything to, you know. Well, then I'll give you something because I also find that when I see something in the wild, it makes me want to keep it in captivity. And that can be a dangerous, slippery slope. You know what I mean? Like, then you get into stuff you maybe, you know maybe doesn't fit in very well with your reptile room or you're like, what did I collect this for? Why did I get this?

It doesn't really fit. You don't think it through because you're so excited and high from seeing it in the wild that you just go home and buy one or something. It can really get you excited for stuff maybe you shouldn't be keeping. I almost feel like – I don't know. I almost feel like you don't need help with that. But yeah, that's true.

That's true. I mean you're – No, I mean yeah, that's the problem. You're the one who's definitely – There's so many cool reptiles out there. Yeah, you're always the one who's like there's always so many cool reptiles. Yeah. But by your rationale, I mean all you need to do is go out and find them in the wild

and you should be able to bring them back and keep them better because you found them in a wild I would say you probably have a better chance than somebody who's never seen them in the wild even though they don't fit in with anything that you're doing or anything like that

how many things are kept just in, you know, we didn't know what we were doing because nobody had information in the wild. I think that's very applicable to green tree pythons. Everybody thinks, oh, hot tropical forest. Let's give them a 90 degree temperature basking spot and then we'll feed them rats and they'll do great.

And oh, surprise, surprise, that doesn't work so well and so you know why are my females dropping dead at the you know three years old or five years old and well maybe it's because they they don't have 90 degrees they're pretty much 70 degrees all year long and they live in you know a dense forest and it's fairly cool and their uh their meals are few and far between you know those kind of things again, somebody seeing them in the wild made those observations, published those results, and then we could kind of have a paradigm shift in how we keep things. Now, it's not to say that you have to keep something exactly like it's kept in the wild. Again, we don't necessarily have to shovel snow in. And maybe some things don't even necessarily need a cooling period.

And, you know, it's not as firmly wired as we think it is or, you know, those kind of things. in captivity, the less relevant their natural history may become in how, you know, I think... Yeah, oh, definitely. Like a... You know, something that's been line-bred for two decades. The domestication of these animals.

It's so far removed from its wild... Leopard geckos or whatever. So you have to kind of be careful when you're doing that. And I think, hey, it's good. Like you can make conclusions based on natural history or field observations in SITU that inform about parameters that are definitely okay for the animal to exist in, but always kind of, you need to take in context, um, you know, what, what's in front of you, what you're dealing with. And I do think there is kind of a, a process of figuring out what, what conditions are

really critical and what are kind of secondary conditions for success, you know? Um, and, and working those out can take a long time and take, you know, experimentation or take, you know, trying to try and different things. And that can also lead to less success when you're changing up things year after year, you know? And so that's, uh, that's kind of the negative side of that. So somebody in your position who has a lot of different, you know, a large group of the same species, you can try different conditions on different pairs. Now, of course, you know, stat sig, you got to have your numbers and your, and your time and your observations and things, but, you know, seeing, seeing how they behave in the wild and seeing them in the wild just increases your chances

and gives you maybe more insights or things to think about. But conversely, that could give you more things. Oh, I need to try this. I need to try this. I need to try this. And you're changing things endlessly. And you can also negate that and reduce your success. And, you know, I mean, I think I think there is a level of like, OK, I've never been you know, I've never been to the home of Hera Island chain, but I I kind of have a broad book, you set of assumptions about that, and I think that would have been, you know, because I,

I can't always bring, you know, equatorial, uh, climate to, to Southern California. I can bring Mediterranean climate, which, you know, not the same, but, but, you know, has some attributes. So, you know, some of it's the hand you're dealt a little bit. Yeah. But, you know, nobody can ever take away the knowledge that you gain while you're out there field herping, you know, that area and making those insights. That's definitely true. That's definitely true. That's definitely true. And I think the more people that get out and experience things in the wild,

the more you can discuss ideas and the more you can bounce off ideas and ask them if they've tried this or that or the other. So it is good to have connections to people that live in the habitat of the things you like and that go out and observe them on a daily basis or a weekly, whatever, regular basis. And I found a lot of – got a lot of benefit out of field herpers in Australia that are out observing these things and they can give you boots on the ground insights because you know one another great example that is when i before i went to australia i thought okay jungle carpets look like this coastal carpets look like this you know you have these these images in your head because the predominant lines in the u.s look like that and you get over there and you see this huge diversity and you're like oh i had no clue you know i thought this was this and that was that and so you're like, oh, I had no clue. I thought this was this and that was that. And so you're arguing things that are not necessarily true.

And that's why Aussies. Because of your limited, narrow experience. That's why Aussies think we're wankers. Well, you know. The shoe fits. Fair enough. Then again, there's a lot of Aussies out there. Just a bunch of Bogans.

Oh, nice. Got to pull out the Aussie slip. Yeah. I don't know. This is an interesting topic. I definitely think that this goes to anything. Any observation can lead you closer to or further away. And sometimes we get down the wrong track and and

we have to kind of readjust and and collect the data and if you're not necessarily collecting the right data that could lead you down the wrong path as well so it's all it's it's and it's you know fairly complicated but i do think there are some of those things like we discussed earlier that are kind of universally can be universally applied. Reptiles are ectothermic, so they need some kind of external heat source. Some need it more than others, and some need it more intensely than others, and things like that. But those kind of broad conclusions can be kind of fine-tuned as you get into the species a little more. And if you start out more broadly and kind of refine as you go, you might have better success along the way

if you're out gathering more information from the wild. But that's kind of maybe how I'd finish this thing out. I don't know. Cool. Unless you have some more burning topics or burning ideas in your mind. Nothing burning. It's all smoldering now. It's a pile of rubble. It's burned down It's all smoldering now. It's a pile of rubble.

It's burned down. It's smoldering now. It's burned down. Yeah, we burn this topic to the ground. The fire is out. Well, if we missed anything, you listener out there, let us know, and we can maybe revisit this down the road or something. But I love field herping.

I think it's one of the greatest things about you know being interested in reptiles is getting out and seeing them in the wild and you know i i i think like this last trip right i i i'd seen pictures and i'd read about black rattlesnakes uh and i i thought you know the arizona black rattlesnake uh and i thought you know they're they're neat looking but I didn't really appreciate them. And then I see one in the wild, and now I'm like, those things are freaking cool, and I want to read more about them and learn more about them and see them again in the wild and things like that. And I was finding different localities and saying, oh, they're not too far from, you know,

they're kind of northern Arizona, almost into Utah, so I can get into their habitat a little easier. Uh, if I go to this, you know what it is, it's like a crack, it's like a crack habit, you know, it is addicting. It really is. It's crazy. You get a, you get a taste of that, uh, that other kind of meth and you're like, Oh, this meth is great. I need some more of this. Exactly. Yeah, the other crack is down in your area, your neck of the woods. And I'm like, dude, I'm jealous of where you live. You can just drive an hour or two over the mountain, and you're in such awesome habitat. That's that limb crack. Yeah, that Borrego area just calls my name.

It's my type of habitat. I just love herping in the desert. Well, you know where I live. Yeah, well, I think I've been out there a time or two. That's fair. You've got some catching up to do. Wow. Get you out field herping, man.

All right, well, this has been a show. We got a shout-out to the Podfather and his gang of ill repute. And his co-host Owen. Oh, we're referring to him as Owen now? Oh, the Mack and Wookiee. Thank you. I'm sorry, Mr. Coining of Terms. Jeez. Mack and Wookiee.

Give the guy his respect. What else? You've come up with some good ones, man. You're like the king of that. McInwookie, McPeakin. What else did you get? Man, I feel like there was more. Yeah.

Anyway, yeah. We're going to have to work on everybody else we're gonna have to give everybody everybody is gonna have to have a persona yeah exactly so the new the new intern the filled herping intern you haven't met dust no you guys herp together huh he's a cool guy yeah oh yeah he's he's the real deal. We had some good times herping. Is he possibly younger than Lucas? I think he... Well, I don't think he's younger than Lucas. What was he, like 20?

It is the battle of the baby faces now. Yeah. I mean, he is married, so he's at least advanced beyond Lucas in that regard. Poor Lucas. Lucas is living the good life man yeah don't he's don't don't don't pigeon with the band yeah he's getting a lot of good animals don't pigeonhole this kid man he's living his best life don't do it baby in a cage yeah man baby in the corner no in the cage don't put baby you can put him in a cage just don't put him in the corner of the cage yeah lucas is the man um single and mingle need to get out but i think lucas has a

girlfriend so again yeah so he's not far behind yeah he's he's saying well there's there's a woman trying to tie him down somewhere i'm not not out here trying to rank the interns. Herping with Dustin was a great thing. We can rank the interns. I'm not above that. I think that falls under Owen's jurisdiction. But again, he doesn't listen, so we can do whatever we want. We have the freedom.

Man, he was sure whining about us the other week, about us stealing his slot. Hey, hey, right here, right here. If he's not ranking the interns, he's Mackenslacking. This brought to you by Chuck poland mack and slacking that's fucking awesome oh yeah i i did the schmitty tears i gotta yeah i gotta give myself some dude no that's a good that's a solid fun one that that is a solid that's it yeah i came up with stat sig yeah so both solids yeah we Yeah. We're some good coiners here. Dude.

Hey, and we flip a coin every week. That's right. Hey, listen. We are pulling our weight, Podfather. We are pulling our weight. We can't beat those. We're in here week in and week out pulling our. We can't beat those Aussies in our numbers, but we bring the heat.

We bring the funda. They've been falling behind lately. Have they? I guess Luke had some rough... Was it Luke? He had... This is not the time for you to forget names. It's not.

It's not. Damn it, man. It doesn't matter when it is. No, I know. Jason and Luke. It was Luke. It was Luke, okay. is. No, I know. Jason and Luke. It was Luke. It was Luke.

Okay. Fan of the Gill and I. I guess he had some, he released a YouTube video that was talking about how he had some crappy luck. Some of his animals died and couldn't figure out what was going on. So I was kind of watching his video while I was working, so I wasn't paying that close attention. So maybe he figured it out. But yeah, sorry to hear that. And it's never fun to have those challenges. And, I mean, that's kind of the downside of keeping live animals is sometimes they are not live anymore.

But our, you know, condolences and, you know, hopefully you get things worked out and figured out what's going wrong. But, I mean, he's got a baby coming in a couple weeks here. Maybe it's already here. Who knows? He's going to have less time to compete with us. Our children are grown! Let's take the challenge! Suck air. Our youngest

is 13, 14 years old. And other than the hurt backs, this is the benefit of being older. There you go. There you go. I think Jason has a couple kids, right? He's got a couple. And they're

kind of getting him back into the reptiles a little more. He kind of got out when he had them as babies, but now they're helping him get back in. The beauty of children. You can always justify your herb addictions with your children. As long as you can get them into it, yeah, for sure. For sure.

Yeah. Good times. Well, I don't know. There's been some fun content out there. I've been listening to a couple. I saw the Venom Exchange podcast. Phil and Ipper interviewed Ty Ipper. I know. I saw the Venom Exchange podcast. Phil and Ipper interviewed Ty Ipper. I know.

I saw that episode. I haven't listened to it. Work has just been, I want to sit down and really listen to that episode and give it all my full attention. If for nothing else, knowing that they interviewed Ty before they interviewed Scott. Scott. Ooh. I wonder if he's hurt by that.

He's probably proud of it. I'm sure he will. I'm sure he will. I wonder if he's hurt by that. He's probably proud of it. I'm sure he will. I'm sure he will. I'm sure he's excited for his wife. He will be texting you as soon as this episode comes out, if he is. I mean, regardless, you get to hear the soothing voice of Nipper and Phil. I mean, you don't get many better voices in the podcast industry as those two. those two so yeah that's a good one they keep you buzzing mate completely buzzing yeah yeah any other good stuff check out lizard brain radio

yeah chuck's latest interview he had some other cool guests on there, too, recently. What else did I see on there? I thought it was the same, because he isn't, Bill's not on that other podcast that you went on, the tiny. Bill? He's not on the tiny herp podcast. Pint-sized reptiles? Pint-sized reptiles. Who's that on there? That's Travis.

Travis? Is that Travis Wyman? And who are the other? I can't. I'm trying to remember. But Bill's that on there? That's Travis. Travis? Is that Travis Wyman? And who are the other? I can't. I'm trying to remember. But Bill's not on that one. No. I saw the tiny geckos, and I'm thinking, is this just a re-release of the pint-sized?

So I need to listen to your interview. I haven't done that yet. You haven't? Not yet. Oh, you should listen to it. We'll get to it, I'm sure. I said some nice things about you. Oh, man. Yeah, it. I'll get to it, I'm sure. I said some nice things about you. Oh, man. Yeah, I did.

There you go. You almost made me take him back with this fight, but I won't do it. I won't do it. You deserve what you got. I think every week you have to have a few days off of me. That's right. That's right. Getting frustrated with my superior logic and reasoning skills.

Is that why? Not sure that's what it is, but okay, we'll run with that. Let's run with that. We're running with that. Sounds good, man.

Well, I enjoyed the discussion. This is always good. You're a great one to debate with. So thanks for your insights and thanks for debating the topic. So yeah, you're welcome. We'll, we'll, we'll be're welcome. We'll be back again.

We'll do this again, if you're willing. There's a big pause there. Are you willing? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't know I actively had to participate in the answer there. Sorry. I mean, you know, maybe it was a rhetorical question. I thought that's what it was.

That's why I didn't say it. I am glad you're the host of the show. You're the host of the show. I am the co-host. We're the co-hosts. Stop. Stop. Dude.

Anyway. I have covered this extensively. I am the co-host and you are the host. All right. We'll go with that. Yes. Thanks to NPR Network, the podfather, for allowing us to record and release this show on his network. It's a great system.

Eric does all the work. All we have to do is get on here and spout our nonsense and then he makes all the magic happen. So thanks, Eric, and your uh band of what i call them band of ill repute ill reputes yes i believe that's what you said all right so uh thanks to the npr network check them out on all the socials all the meads is that what the cool kids are saying don't ask me what cool kids are saying. Oh, that's right. We're old. Yeah. Okay. Well, check him out on TikTok. Because that's where all the cool kids go.

No, check him out on Instagram, Facebook, Morelia Python Radio Network. Is that right? I think that's right. Yeah, you want to check him out on the Morelia Python Radio Network. But you can also check him out on MoreliaPythonRadioNetwork.com. Okay. On the website. OnNetwork.com. Okay. On the website. On the website. Yeah.

All right. My brain is empty now, and I think it's time to go. So thanks for listening, and we'll catch you again next week for another episode of Reptile Fight Club. Field herping. It works 60% of the time, every time. We'll be right back. Thank you. you