Reptile Fight Club - Feeding Schedules.

Episode Date: August 20, 2021

In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the topic of feeding schedules.Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Thank you. Hi, welcome to Reptile Fight Club. With me as always is co co-host, Jeff Coleman. Hello. And myself, Justin June. We are going to fight today. Excited about our little brawl here. But I don't know, what you got going? You got anything?

So, you know, in the snake room, I finished installing. So I think last episode I was talking about how I, uh, put in some heat panels or I've actually bought some heat panels and I got them all off gas and I finally got them installed and I had to move around my UV light, uh, in the cage. And so now everything's all set up and, uh, um, I'm pretty much ready to rock and roll with my, uh, Tracy. I group this year. So that's good. I'm glad to have that finally settled. And, um, what'd you do for caging for those guys? So I built, I built a plywood caging for them. Um, and you know, similar dimensions than the old caging.

They're just, it's just longer. The cages I put them in and bred them in are 36 by 24 by 24. And these are five feet by 24 by 24. So they're just, they're just longer. They have the exact same elevated perch attached. So it's a nesting box and a perch uh so there's a there's a basking shelf that kind of leads right into the the nesting box the nesting box is elevated and it has a pass through so they can actually be separated in that in that nesting box they really like the nesting box yeah and like elevator hung from the top from the top of the

yeah yeah so it's basically screwed right to the side of the, yeah. Yeah. So it's basically screwed right to the side of the cage and, and, uh, it's, it's, it's right off the right-hand side. So I have a whole separate, like the top of the nesting box comes off so I can just access the nesting box separate, uh, from the cage. Um, yeah. So, and then, uh, yep. I cut the, so I've been keeping the, one of the males and then the other female, um, the two I'm going to breed this year for sure. Uh, in, um, in separate cages and I cut the pass through for that. Uh, and, and, uh, so now I can kind of open that up as at will. But still feeding, still trying to get them ready. So not really ready to let them co-mingle or anything.

Yeah. What did you seal the cages with? I used like a silicone, just a silicone sealant. And then I painted the inside. So yeah. Yeah. Nice. Yeah.

That's, that's fun. I, uh, I've been working on some cages lately as well and tried to do some, you know, fake rock work in there and stuff, make them look like the desert. I not totally happy with my first go around. So I think I've got an, I've, I've got like three sets of the same kind of cage. I found all these shelving units for like really cheap. And so I bought like a bunch of shel enter Asia and they're working pretty well, I probably need to put some vents in them. So I'm looking to 3d print some vents and, and yeah, but, um, yeah, so it's, it's been fun, but I, I, yeah, I enjoy building cages. I had to build some racks. I was running out of room for babies and, and I build a, I had some plastic sitting around cause I ordered a bunch and hadn't gotten around to assembling all the racks. And so I threw a couple of racks together and got some, uh, for those ball Python babies I

got. So, yeah. So I feel bad. I have one, I have one Tracy, I, that one male, uh, that, uh, is in the old cage and I built the other two cages,'re plywood and before the price of of timber just went you know berserko so now i'm like man it'd be cheaper to build it out of plastic uh yeah so uh it's crazy yeah it is like the price of wood of wood and material and it's just nuts dude yeah it's like it's over doubled i mean it's almost tripled in price oh yeah yeah i mean that osb plywood it was like what 10 bucks a sheet and now it's like 30 40 a sheet i'm like really are you kidding me yeah i i saw a hundred dollar sheet of of like uh you know pine like uh plywood so i was like what the hi i pity anybody that's trying to build a house right now.

Oh, it's crazy. And like people, like the contractors, you know, they made bids and then they started the work and all of a sudden their, their costs triple. It's like, yeah, that's unsustainable. They have to revise. I think a lot of those guys lock in there. They, you know, if they're, if they're large developers, they kind of lock in their price on materials guys lock in there. They, you know, if they're, if they're large developers, they kind of lock in their price on materials and stuff like that. So,

but I mean, when the prices fluctuate like that, and then, you know, you're looking to do a, you know, a big build or something like that. I mean, how do you mitigate those prices that aren't locked in? You know, they're, they're, they're prohibitive. So. I do enjoy, you know, using the plastic, but at the same time, it's hard to beat, you know, the structural qualities of wood. Oh, for sure.

So, you know, it's, I guess to each his own or, you know, I, I do, I got some of those plastic cages from you and they're working out really well. They're good. Those are good cages. There were animal plastic cages that you could get in and you know six weeks rather than six years so yeah i would have liked to have i would have liked to have um you know gotten some some ap cages or a good uh you know pvc cage but it's just i don't know it's It's just, it was just, yeah, it was just easier for me to use the old kind of cage design and keep things as, as, you know, um,

functionally the same as they were in the old cage and just build a, uh, a plywood cage that's to my, you know, kind of my liking. So specifications, you know, if you're handy at all, that's the way to go because you can build it how you want it. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. And I like to do that stuff on the weekends. So yeah, it's good. It's good. Yeah.

Um, I, I don't know. I mean, just stuff, normal stuff's going on with my reptile collection, trying to get babies to feed. This is the time of year for that and having fun with the Gernia. They're such cool, cool lizards and, yeah normal normal stuff going on i know i've been seeing a gurney uh uh around on facebook and uh i'm just like ah no don't don't don't don't yeah this is the year when they they're born usually in you know the middle of the summer and yeah you see them see them for sale and stuff they look definitely fun and very cool animals but yeah that's there i need i need more animals like i need a hole in

my head right yeah that's that's the hard thing is there's so many cool reptiles to keep but yeah we have to limit yourself yeah are you yeah wind up with more than you can handle i'm i have been at that point many times in my career. I was at that point as well. And I, that's, I mean, I slimmed down my collection and, you know, then I got, then I got into day geckos and then I'm like, Oh, these things are awesome. And I'm like, Oh man, you know, you can keep small pie. Antaresia are awesome. Like, you know, like you go down that whole other rabbit hole and you're like, wait, I'm going to end up in the same but different place here if I keep going. So, yeah, it's definitely, you know, I mean, I guess, you know, it'd be nice if I had all the space in the world, but living in California, you know.

Oh, yeah. You're very limited out there so i wish i could uh i wish i could do something like ryan young and and have that whole you know reptile addition that's you know off his house and that looks that looks amazing so yeah i'm sure he's pretty sweet he's very handy yeah he does a lot of cool projects and builds his own cages and had some cool ideas for cages too that i kind of stole off him you know looking it's cage designs for especially for the antaregion stuff some cool ideas for cages too that I kind of stole off him, you know, looking at cage designs, especially for the ante region stuff. Some cool stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

How's your outdoor stuff doing? You keeping anything outside right now? Yeah. No, it's all right. I've got my pair of Coastals outside. They're doing fine. Yeah, they're doing fine. Yeah. They're, they're, they're doing fine. I I'm kind of like, want to see how they do in the next year or so. Like, I want to see two years outside and then I'll probably move my diamonds outside and probably,

probably get at least, you know, probably move most of my carpets outside. I've got my, my Darwin's I've got albino Darwin's I've got someets outside. I've got my, my Darwin's, I've got albino Darwin's, I've got some diamonds and then I've got those coastals and I'll probably, if, if all things go well and I like it and I mean, it's so good so far, you know, it's, seems pretty locked on pretty easy. So, um, seems like maybe the Darwin's might get a little too cold during the winter, but the others can handle it just fine, I'm sure. Yeah, for sure. Especially the diamonds.

It doesn't get too cold in California for diamonds. It was probably, I don't know, man, maybe 50s. And those coastals were just out cruising around. I mean, they didn't go in from basking. They just sat out there so i mean you know i think i just think that you know you you gotta kind of obviously if you live in a a mediterranean climate man you should you should try it you definitely that's cool you you learn a few things and you see how uh see how see how good it can be. Uh, you know,

That'd be fun. Yeah. I'm jealous of like Scott Iper keeping all the, you know, the, his embricada and stuff outside. That's pretty cool. Definitely. Yeah. That's tough. Cool, man. Anything else? Um, we can mention the, the Southwest carpet fest or sorry, Northwest, Northwest, Northwest carpet fest. Uh, Jeff and Kendra of Puget sound pythons are putting it on up in bothwell washington that's right september 18th so that's right another month or so before that happens but yeah that should be cool four days after my 45th birthday i know i am an old man that's a very true statement. I feel like an old man sometimes.

Still got you by a year and a half, I guess. Yeah. Well, you can have it. You can keep it. Keep the, keep the prize. I'll take it. Yeah. I'm enjoying being, being old. That's good. It's got its advantages, I guess. Yeah. So I was talking to Nick Bottini. I might be saying that wrong. I apologize, Nick. I didn't ask you how you pronounce your last name. But anyway, we were talking about, you know, the kind of reptile legislation and stuff and a little bit because he's in South Carolina where all those cobras loose for some reason and so um you know that's kind of crazy if you're in uh south carolina or around that area you know join the fight because you know they're they're taking away a lot of the uh reptile keepers uh privileges out there what what happened to nick what was his um oh he he had? He bought some like Gila monsters and beaded lizards and thought, oh, I should be okay with these.

You know, they have pretty good venomous laws out in the state. And like a year later, they outlawed him. So he had to sell that whole project, you know, a year after he got it. And that was related to that. A bummer. That was related to that cobra that got loose? No, I don't think so. Cause that just happened recently. So I don't think they've enacted the laws that quickly.

And it sounds like it was, you know, fairly recently he had to get rid of him. So I, it could be, I don't know the details on that, but yeah. Thank goodness for your USR and things like that. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's a, and it's, yeah. And there's another Cobra loose in Texas, I think. Oh yeah. Like a forest Cobra or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right. I seen, uh, yeah, I, I, I seen Jeff, uh, Berenger posted about it and I think,

I think he's down in Texas and I'm pretty sure, uh, that's, that was where, where it happened. Uh, not a hundred percent on that, but, but yeah pretty sure, uh, that's, that was where, where it happened. Uh, not a hundred percent on that, but, but yeah, man, uh, yeah. Lock your Cobras up people. Jesus. Yeah. Come on people. And it only takes like one thing to kind of make everything go. Well, and it, it's really interesting. I just feel like, and, and, you know, it feels like it moves in cycles and waves and and uh it just seems like there's a lot of i was um on the way home today there's a lot of uh of attention that seems to be on reptiles and exotics right now and i don't know if that's a

concerted push from animal rights people or what you know whether just the recent instance of of certain instances that have happened that have drawn attention to it or what but you know, whether just the recent instance of, of certain instances that have happened that have drawn attention to it or what, but, you know, I was like listening to NPR on the way home and they were talking about, you know, uh, all of the large exotic animals and they were talking about big cats and, and wolves and, you know, bears and large, uh, larger mammals. Um, and, uh, they were just kind of talking about like what happens, like there's a sanctuary in San Diego. Um, they went out to the sanctuary and, you know, kind of going through like why the sanctuary is good, that these animals aren't,'t aren't bred aren't sold for money they're

you know they're there to live out their life and and uh just kind of talking about it but but it just kind of in my head was just like man this is really you know um you know seems seems to be um a sharpening of the spear so to to speak with, with, you know, exotic animals and, and a, and a push towards, you know, very not the outline, but just kind of the changing the, the discussion around the appropriateness of exotic animals. And, you know, maybe some of that's totally fair. Um, you know, I'm, I'm not sure big cats belong, you know, readily available for people to own. And yeah, I mean, there's definitely, that's the hardest thing too,

because if you just flat out ban them, that makes it easy because then nobody has to enforce it. And if somebody has one, then it's easy to say, oh, that's illegal. But sometimes there's just no sense behind it. I believe that we as Americans have a right to keep things if we're responsible and we can do it properly. And maybe for big cats, that means you have to have some kind of, you know, sanctuary or you have to have some kind of a zoo or, you know, whatever. But I don't know. I mean, we saw how that worked out for tiger King, you know, their family expired meat from Walmart or something. I just don't think that's the way to do things. But one of the, the things they were talking about is this, um, this sanctuary's got got a, it's like a sanctuary accreditation.

So there, there is, there's a, there is some sort of accreditation associated with it. necessarily call um you know uh the the the tiger king's facility a a sanctuary or i mean that was a that was a that was a breeding facility and uh yeah i have heard too i have heard people kind of come to his defense a little bit within the reptile community that have met him and kind of know him so you know i'm not gonna say i know all the details i mean. So, you know, I'm not going to say I know all the details. I mean, I watched the, you know, the show Tiger King, but that doesn't necessarily, you know, they may have portrayed him in a different light or, you know, that kind of thing. So, I mean, he might be just passionate about tigers and, and I think there does need to be like a captive bred source. We can't go out collecting tigers from the wild, you know, they need to be protected in the wild. So, you know, tigers for zoos or tigers for these, um, different, you know, smaller wildlife parks or whatever, they need to come from somewhere. So somebody needs to breed tigers.

Yeah. But I guess my question is like, okay, so, so you're a tiger breeder. So you breed tigers. Like what, what, what is the, the outside of maybe zoos, um, you know, maybe, uh, attractions, things like that. Where is your market for, you know, uh, large cats, you know, and selling to the public is that's risky. You know what I mean? If your cat, if your cat kills one of the kids or you know yeah it's the same thing with venomous reptiles i mean uh i was talking to terry phillip or you know went and visited him up in south dakota and he was saying that they're having a hard time sourcing you know getting a place to buy venomous reptiles from because you know nobody wants the liability that nobody's breeding them because you know then you have to liability that nobody's breeding them because, you know, then you're have to sell them to private hobbyists or whatever. And all the laws that are enacted, it's really difficult to find anything, you know, and, and this is from, you know, kind of a private zoological institution. So that's, that's a tricky,

tricky balance, you know, to say we want, you know, there to be a source of these things, but we also appreciate that they need to be protected in their house. It's just a complicated thing. And to say, this is what needs to be done. That's very difficult to do, you know, because it's so complex. And I guess that's what we do here, right? We talk about the complexities of issues. And so, you know, even the tiger King probably has a place. Um, but defining that place is very difficult and saying, okay, you, you know, you're, you're abusing your, your position or whatever. And I do think there were, I mean, there were places that were, um, monitoring things that were going on and, you know, that kind of stuff. So there is some oversight

and, and with, with these kinds of places. And I think, um, didn't they shut down that weird doctor dude that had all the lady friends? Dr. Antle? Yeah, exactly. Like, so I, I think they shut his place down. Maybe I heard that wrong, but anyway. I think, I think, uh, I think that's right. They, uh, they took his animals from him, I believe. Yeah. So, I mean, I, I think there's, there needs to be places that, that breed, you know, venomous reptiles and maybe that's, you know, for zoological institutions to do, or, or, you know, there, maybe there's some private keepers that can, can do that responsibly and, and, and source, you know, or, or provide, uh, animals for, for zoos and, um, wildlife parks or whatever.

Well, do you think that, do you think that the private hobby, you know, the, the average person who's like, well, I, if it's Lee, it's not illegal in my state and I'm going to do it. And, you know, do you think a bad outcome with that leads to, you lawmakers just being like nope we're gonna ban this like so honestly like the knee-jerk reaction to um you know to venomous reptiles where those institutions that might come along uh that have a positive reason for keeping a venomous collection really don't have that option anymore because it's been banned through their state or, you know, you just can't even keep those animals or. Yeah. Yeah. When they change the laws in a state, I mean, sometimes, you know, legitimate institutions are grandfathered in or, or, you know, are given a special allowance or,

you know, in my state, you, you have to get a permit to keep and breed or keep, even keep venomous reptiles. And it's not easy to get. And, you know, I don't think it should be like free for all, you know, just everybody keep a snake. If you want to go to a reptile show, get a, you know, Viper in a deli cup and bring it home and, you know, see how you do with it. I think there needs to be some structure, you know, some kind of structure in place to say, okay, let's make sure the people that are keeping them are doing so responsibly, you know, and it, to get the, the, uh, license or, or whatever in Utah, you have to have like a three barrier system where you have two locked, three locked doors between, you know, the outside

and the reptile. So there's no, you know, if it gets out of its cage, it doesn't necessarily able to get out into the world, you know, the cobras in South Carolina and Texas. So, um, you know, I think that's appropriate. I don't think there's anything wrong with having some sort of rule system in place to say, Hey, you know, let's do this responsibly. And if you can show that you can, you're, you're thinking about it and you're doing things properly, or maybe you have to have anti-venom on hand or, or have a source of it that you have access to and not just say, you know, the hospital or give it to me or the nearest zoo will give it to me. You know, you have some kind

of, um, B plan on that, especially if you're, if you have a big collection of hots, you know, there's, it's like not if, but when somebody's gonna get bit with a big collection even the best keepers in the world get bit you know once in their life you know so you know that's that's after you know thousands of hours of reptile handling but still it's you know it'll happen so yeah gotta be prepared yeah and i mean that some some of this venom so rare and so hard to get that, you know, it's, you know, you're really risking your own life. Yeah. If you don't procure the right antivenom for some of the animals that, and, you know, I mean, man, there's some, you know, the mang vipers are amazing looking. I mean, they're just, they're nuts.

They're just insane. One of my favorite, but I don't think so, man. Not for me. Yeah. Like you take a bite from one of the, I mean, I don't know how dangerous their venom is, but I mean, if you take a, any bite from a large venomous snake, They look, their heads look like they could put a lot of venom into you. Their glands, their glands look very, very big. I, you know, and so I, I wouldn't want to take

a bite from something like that. Um, but you know, I, I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to venomous. I don't know a lot about venomous snakes or venomous snake keeping. And, you know, I've, you know, seen lots of rattlesnakes in my days and then, you know, see them out around here and, and, uh, and, you know, I take, keep my distance or maybe, uh, take a picture or two, you know, and, and try to do so responsibly, but that's, you know, as far as I go, I kept a couple as a kid, but when I didn't realize it was illegal to do so, I had a couple of rattlesnakes as pets and we didn't have any incidences, but we came close to one or two and you know, that's kind of a scary thing to think about, but you know, there's, there should be some kind of rules in place to, to kind of

hope, hopefully prevent some, some things that like that are happening from happening. And yeah. Well, it just seems like, it seems like the stuff that's happening now is happening fast like you know that you know the south carolina legislation that happened really fast like at least at least it seemed like it did to me you know what i mean yeah well nick was saying that they're not listening to yeah us arc or they're not listening to other people that are they're just trying to push something forward, you know? And I don't think that's the, you know, that never works out either because then it's not based on reality. It's based on their fears. And so, you know, it's not going to solve the problem. It's just going to make people upset because they're not able to do

things even in a responsible manner, you know? And I just don't think that's the way to go. Well, and I think you hit it on... Unfortunately, politicians don't listen. Yeah. i think you hit unfortunately politicians don't listen yeah i think you hit it you hit it on the head when you said it's easier to just ban stuff than it is to try to regulate it you know it's like well if we ban it then it's just back-end enforcement well if we catch you with it you're in trouble yeah it's not legal to sell it's not legal to own but we're not legal to own. But we're not going to have to spend any real resource around policing it. It's just when we find it on the back end, we punish it. Right. And that's that's that's pretty much I think the the I think that's a very politician way to look at. nanny state or, you know, people that are passionate about it are going to do it one way or another. And so, you know, they either leave the state or they do it under, you know, and keep it quiet or whatever. We sure have an awfully strong gun lobby in this country and no politician wants to come take people's guns away.

I mean, they'll talk about it. Yeah. They'll talk about it all day. And everybody's like, oh, the NRA is horrible, blah, blah, blah. But I mean, to be honest, you know, they've secured gun rights for Americans for a long time. You know, I was saying like, you know, we have a school shooting like, you know, once a week or something. But as soon as you try to take away guns, but we have one Cobra escape and also a bandit within that state. It's pretty ridiculous, you know.

So having, you know, having those strong lobbies there for us to, you know, to back us up and fight for our rights. It's just, you know, the, the amount of gun owners versus the amount of reptile owners in the United States are, you know, apples and oranges and numbers. And that's, that's part of the problem. You know, we, we need to support those people that are kind of going to bat for us for sure. And, and, you know, make sure you're donating and, you know, I set up a monthly donation just to make it easy and, you know, I don't think about it and the money just goes to help. So hopefully that can continue and they can continue to fight for her rights. So, well, that wasn't even our talk. Lock up your cobra.

Yeah. Lock up your cobras. Yeah. Keep those cobras in their cages, guys. Come on. Yeah. So today. So what is our topic?

Yeah. We're going to talk about, uh, feeding schedules. So there's, uh, you know, I think it's an important topic to discuss a lot of, uh, um, unhealthy or, you know, overweight reptiles exist in our hobby. And so we're going to talk about regular versus irregular feeding schedules. So we'll, we'll try to maybe help define those you know our ideas um so uh yeah let's get started all right let's go with the the coin toss here coin toss um you're ready to call it so am i going for you're ready to get it i'm just gonna i'll just i'll just call it in the air and then we'll figure out what irregular We'll figure it out. Irregular, irregular. All right. All right. All right. Ready? Okay. Go ahead.

Throw it. All right. All right. Heads. His tails. God damn it, dude. You are really bad at this. You know what? I don't know.

I'm going to have to let you flip the coin, I guess. I was going to say, I don't know who you are anymore. I'm starting to question. That's just funny. That's just funny. What are the odds, right? Yeah, statistically speaking. You won a couple, haven't you?

One. You won once? Once. Once. I can see why you distrust me. It might be two. I need to. We're like 12 episodes deep right now.

I need to train the camera too so you can see the coin and you can see it and you got it wrong. I apologize. Because statistically speaking, this shouldn't happen. These are like the worst triple ball python combo ratios I'm going with right now, how much I lose. Well, as reptile keepers, we know that the odds don't always work out in our favor. Apparently, you're using me to prove that rule. as reptile keepers we know that the odds don't always work out in our favor apparently apparently i remember i what i bred like back in my ball python days i bred a mojave to a lesser and i got five normals and one mojave like out of six eggs it's like man you know the you had as good a

chance as getting a leucistic as you did as getting a normal and this was back when leucistics were probably you know a thousand dollars each you know it's like yeah that's figures and that's how the odds go but apparently in flipping coins like i i just you know i'm amazing at the odds yeah yeah i am okay yeah i'm not i'm i'm gonna go with the, the, the irregular feeding schedule and kind of push that proponent. So fine. Sorry, man. You got to try to defend the regular weekly feeding schedule or whatever you want to call it. I mean, I like it, but I will do it. I'll do it. All right. So I'll go first.

You know what? Since i get to lose you get to start yeah of course you are yeah um so i i guess i would define an irregular feeding schedule maybe more appropriate term would be a natural feeding schedule So based on their natural history, right? These animals have evolved to have a certain diet and timing of their diet and prey availability varies throughout the year. And so why not follow that in herpetoculture? So why not keep our animals and feed them kind of on a schedule that they're used to from the wild. So I, in the green tree Python book that Terry Phillip and I wrote, I, I included in there a bunch of details on some native species that occurred within the range of green tree pythons in Australia and included like how big the weanlings were, you know, when they

were released from their parents or set off on their own kind of thing. And, you know, obviously snakes are going to feed on the dumbest, you know, newest animals that they can overpower and that are dumb enough to get caught or whatever, you know. I'm sorry, the dumbest, newest animals. I just made me laugh. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Sorry. Sorry, the dumbest, newest animals. I just made me laugh. Go ahead. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. So, you know, obviously they're going to be feeding mostly on those.

And that kind of coincides with prey availability when, you know, the weanlings occur. And most animals don't breed constitutively throughout the year. You know, they have defined breeding schedules and times when the when they have offspring pythons are a great example they breed once a year it's generally they you know a lot of pythons will breed in the winter or or spring and then have you know their eggs a few months after that and so you know we we uh they have their natural rhythms and their natural cycles and and their prey items do as well so they're feeding more frequently on you know small probably smaller you know weanling animals depending on the species and what they catch. So you know

it's a good idea to research the animals you keep, find out what some of their native prey items might be and then then see when those, you know, are produced or, or when the animal, you know, when their wet season is or whatever, you know, when, when animals are, are breeding and thriving in their natural habitat. So that's how I would start this out. What do you got, man? I mean, okay. Oh, I mean, you know, I think there's certainly a case to be made for infrequent or kind of feeding irregularly. But I think when you're talking about baby snakes and breeding animals that regular feedings actually, you know, I mean, we're not out in nature. We, we leverage all of the, all of the positive things that, that we can do by garnering resource and, and concentrating it in captivity. So, I mean, I think, you know, when you're raising

babies, having a regular feeding schedule that helps them, you know, get up to size in a reasonable time that doesn't make them fat and doesn't, you know, you know, there's something to be said for that regularity. And I think one of the dangers of irregular feeding is that you're too irregular. And I think we've definitely seen that in the hobby where we went from, oh, I feed my snake every week, no matter how big or how old it is, to I feed my animal hardly ever, hardly ever. And I barely give it any food. And I don't think either one of those are good. So I think finding a schedule that is regular is a good thing. I think the way you feed hatchlings and juveniles is not the way you feed sub-adults and certainly not the way you feed adults. If you look at the growth curve and, and the, uh, the energy needed or, uh, by, you know, uh, hatchling animals versus adults,

you know, they're, they take starkly different, uh, energy intakes to maintain themselves. So I think, you know, you're definitely kind of, and, and it kind of depends if you are keeping animals in gigantic, you know, zoo type display enclosures and they're all over this cage and they're moving all around and, you know, it really expending a lot of energy, then maybe you can afford to feed them a little bit more often. Um, but, but I. But I think the point that I would make is that regular feeding is to the benefit probably of the keeper in keeping a schedule so that you're on a schedule, you're making sure that you're caring for the animal as far as its needs, and that the animal is getting, you know, the nutrition that it needs regularly enough to grow at the rate that it should. And now what that frequency is, is probably what we could all argue about.

What is when is too soon and how much is too much. But I think that regular feeding, there's nothing wrong with regular feeding. So I think that's probably where I'd go with that. Yeah. And, you know, I agree that, you know, it's hard to feed a juvenile too frequently. But of course, that depends on the species, you know. But as far as, you know, pythons go, where I have the most experience, you know, they're going to grow long and thin rather than fat. You know, they don't usually bulk up until they reach adult size. Now, another aspect or issue that's in herpetoculture,

I think, is we often conflate, you know, maximum size with adult size. And so, we have that idea of like, oh, it needs to get, you know, a coastal carpet needs to be 12 feet before it reaches, you know, adult size. But no, they get adult size at like five feet, you know, a coastal carpet needs to be 12 feet before it reaches, you know, adult size, but no, they get adult size at like five feet, you know, their, their, their adult size then. And, and so I think that misconception is, is very common in herpetoculture. And so that needs to be addressed. So, um, but, but getting them to that adult size and then slowing down and maybe adopting a more natural schedule. Now, of course, you know, a green tree python in the wild, as the papers have shown, feeds very infrequently. So if you follow a natural feed schedule, you also need to be prepared for a natural reproductive cycle and a natural other aspects of their keeping.

Now, are they healthier? Yeah. And are they going to live longer? Yeah. Are they going to have less eggs? Yeah, probably. So, um, but if they, but if they live longer, you're taking, what you're probably doing is taking the same amount of eggs and stretching them out over a longer period of time. Right. Yeah. You know, you, you may be talking about the same, the same number of, of offspring. You just, you're just taking it out over a much longer period of time. Yeah. And, and also I, the, the feeding, you know, the way they feed or the amount they feed on or whatever also goes to they, they have different mechanisms that decide whether or not their eggs are going to be larger or they're going to have more eggs per, per clutch.

And so those kinds of things, you know, there's, there's been some research done and a little bit of insight into that, but, you know, we're still learning a lot of things. So, you know, maybe switching up your, your feeding cycle could result in maybe smaller clutches, but the eggs are larger and the babies are easier to get established or get going or whatever, you know, so maybe there's trade-offs or, or benefits from that. So, you know, if, if you can, um, I guess maybe, and, and along those same lines, you know, like maybe one year, a green tree python feeds on just a few, you know, a handful of meals in the whole year. Whereas another year, it might be a really good year and there's plenty of prey around and, you know, they gorge themselves because, you know, green tree pythons don't pass up a meal, which is, you know, and, and I think, uh, uh, you know, we need to pay attention to the behaviors of our

snakes because some, you know, some species are opportunistic. They come from a hard area. And so they're going to eat whenever they have the chance because that's programmed into them. That's their evolutionary biology. But in the wild, the feeding opportunities only come by every once in a while. So they need that response. Whereas in captivity, if they're getting a meal a week, you know, they're like, oh, more, you know, more food. And then we have a, uh, an unhealthy over, you know, fed snake. I, I really, you know, part of this really came to light with a post from Matt Somerville where he posted his, uh, Ingram's brown snake, right?

Did you see that post? It was a necropsy post and he had, you know, had, had one of his snakes die and he'd only fed it once that year. And apparently it only eats, you know, maybe a couple times a year, but even on that very, you know, limited feeding schedule, the whole, you know, abdomen of the snake was filled with fat deposits. So there are some species that are just exceedingly good at storing energy, right? And snakes is in general are, are that way, you know, there, there's, uh, there's some species that probably eat, uh, quite a bit, you know, they might need to be fed every, every couple of days, especially some that may be insectivorous

or, you know, um, eat other, you know, easily digestible or they, they have a high metabolism like, uh, you know, various colubrids, um, you know, coach whips and things like that. They're fast moving and, you know, eat, you know, coach whips and things like that. They're fast moving and, you know, eat, you know, probably as much as they can catch their prey. Um, so like you said, you know, it depends on the species. Um, but you know, that, that's all something that needs to be taken into consideration when you're deciding, you know, what species you're going to keep or, or deciding on a new species, you need to learn about their natural history. And so that's kind of, maybe we're hitting it from two different angles, but understanding their natural history is key to keeping them happy and

healthy and feeding them appropriately. So with a, you know, an Ingram's brown snake you might only need to feed it a couple of times a year, you know, that, that might might be and that might be too much. Who knows? So, you know, that it just depends on the species. Whereas like, you know, I've got some shovel nose snakes and, you know, I feed them several times a week and they they don't get fat. You know, they're they're they're doing pretty well and they probably eat quite a bit because insects are a lot less, um, have a lot less energy to them, at least some insects than, than like say a rodent, you know, there's a lot of fat on a mammal versus an insect, which is, you know, a lot of Titan and stuff like, you know, indigestible manner matter.

Yeah. I mean, I think that's definitely, well, and I think that's one of the things we kind of, I don't want to say we gloss over, but I think it's easy to say like, oh, snakes eat rodents, you know? And well, I mean, yeah, but is that what their natural diet is? And, and, you know, what that, what is the frequency they encounter, whatever their natural diet is. And that, that will tell you a little bit about their intake. So if, you know, we give them a, you know, a highly nutritious, but also, you know, maybe too nutritious of a, of a food source and, you know, they're, they don't move around like they would in the wild, or maybe, maybe they just sit the same, but the food sources has so much more fat content or, or nutrient content that so much more of it gets stored to fat, uh, because they're, they're not burning it. You know, it's, uh, it just goes to the detriment of the animal. So, I mean, I think,

you know, I, I, I used to think that letting your animal clean out and, you know, when you're when you're cooling them down and that was a food that was strictly a so your animal doesn't throw it up and and, you know, clean them out so that when they're reproducing that they don't have to deal with food. And that was my old way of thinking. And my new way of thinking is that's just their off season. That's when, you know, everything shut down. And I noted and this was in the Tracy eye that I noticed this is is that they're absolutely psychopaths when it comes to, you know, it's, it's scary. They're scary. And, and, you know, you can start introductions and, and start doing that. And they add, they're just food, food, food, food in their head. And all of a sudden they make that flip and then they just, they completely are so much less interested in food. They go into their breeding mode and they, they're just like clockwork. Once they lay their eggs, you give them a month or so, then you start introducing small food to them again,

and they're right back on it. And it's just a nice cycle. And, and, and for me, I think I tend to, to feed a little bit heavier, uh, in the, in the, you know, the, the late spring, summer to fall months and, and kind of, you know, taper it off and, and let them do their thing and then start it over again. So they have this, you know, larger ebb and flow, but when I feed, I feed on a, on a schedule, you know what I mean? It helps me, um, you know, but, but there's an, there's still a cycle. So I think there's something definitely to, you know, when we talk about infrequent feeding, I think, you know, we have to talk about feeding on a cycle. I think that's a natural thing. I think that whether you're feeding heavily for a period of the year and then giving them an off or feeding infrequently around the year, I don't think that either of those are wrong

in the correct situation. I think that younger animals, babies can probably be fed less frequently year round, whereas sub-adults and adults probably need to be fed cyclically through the season, especially if you're breeding them. Maybe if you're not going to breed them or whatever, then maybe you can feed them in frequent. And I guess that's the other thing too, is, is, you know, if you're not trying to breed your snake, maybe you really don't need to, you know, if you, if you want, you know, a snake that'll live 20, 25 years and you don't care about breeding them, then no, you probably don't need to give them the caloric intake that somebody who's trying to breed their animal does. Right. I mean, sure. That's kind of my thought. Yeah. Um, I, I also, you know, when we're talking pythons, um, you know, there's, there's been some research that shows when a python digests a large meal their organs increase in size to you know to handle that

additional um you know to increase the metabolism to digest that meal and and store that you know as fat or make energy out of or whatever and so you know when you're um consider you know if you're feeding a python a large meal once a week, you're, you know, their organs are getting bigger and then they're getting smaller and then they're getting bigger and they're getting smaller. That could take a toll on the animal, you know, and really shorten its lifespan and cause, you know, issues. So I would definitely, uh, recommend keeping that in mind too, especially if you're keeping pythons. I was reading a paper, maybe it was a thesis, Gavin Bedford's thesis.

And he had measured the increase in metabolism using a certain biomarker. I can't remember off the top of my head, but, um, and he found that when he was in, I think this was with, uh, water pythons or olive pythons. I want to say that sounds right. That sounds right. He might have, he might've done it in a few species, but he, he, the, the, my take home from that, what, you know, when I was reading was that if he fed a meal that was less than 20% of the animal's weight, he didn't see that increase in metabolism like he did with the larger meals. So, I mean, you might feed more frequently if you're feeding smaller meals. And

I've heard many people, uh, uh, have reported, you know, that that's very successful in their breeding regimen when they, you know, when they do very successful in their breeding regimen when they, you know, when they do increased feedings that they feed a lot of small meals rather than one large meal. And I don't know if there's a cumulative effect, like if you're feeding five meals that are 20%, you know, that's going to make for a larger food bolus. So I don't know how long you need to wait in between meals, you know, or else you're going to make for a larger food bolus. So I don't know how long you need to wait in between meals, you know, or else you're going to ramp up the metabolism. So that may be a question that hasn't been answered at this point, but you know, the idea of feeding smaller meals may in the long

run be more healthy for the animals because you're not ramping up their metabolism like, like a large meal does? Well, I mean, so just me, just me in my head thinking, and, and, and for me, the way I think about it is these animals are able to take very large meals, right? That's part of their, that, you know, that, that's part of their natural history is to be able to take prey that are much larger than them and take it down and digest it. And so that physiology is there for a reason. And so, you know, use it for what it is, but take it for what it is. And so I have no issue feeding.

You know, if I'm going to ramp up an animal's metabolism like that, then maybe I'll capitalize on that and feed them several large meals spaced out over a period of time and then let them go for a while. You know, let it everything calm down. But then, you know, let it, let it, everything calm down. And, but then, you know, take, take half the year off. Um, and, and, you know, I, I think, I think that when you're, the problem is people do maybe meals that borderline on, on ramping up their metabolism in that, uh, in, in that heavy, you know, maybe extra, uh, difficult way for them. And they do it, you know, feeding after feeding, after feeding, thinking that that's kind of the normal size or, or that what they're doing is just fine. And they, and they're, you know, they're constantly like revving, basically they're revving the, the metabolism of that animal over and over and over.

And that probably takes its toll. But if you rev that metabolism up and you rev it up for a period, and then you just let it go and, and, you know, they, they, they go right back. Um, and you know, you mean like a natural cycle? Is that what you're talking about? Well, no, I mean, I think, I mean, listen, I think the best teacher of anything is nature. And, you know, as I said from the jump that, you know, a seasonal cycle that's regularly fed is just fine. You know, it's the infrequent feedings that I think are the issue where the issue where, you know, or, or maybe they're not, maybe people, I mean, I think there's so many ways you can skin the cat with, with feeding snakes and reptiles. I mean, obviously I think, you know, veranids and, and a lot of lizard species, they, they're really not forgiving in the way they need to be fed sometimes. And if you,

if you're not keeping them up and you're not, you know, I would say a viranid likes a ramped up immune system and it likes to be fed. And as long as it's heated and fed, it does pretty well. I mean, you can obviously see people who take that way too far and you can see morbidly obese, you know, viranids too. So, I mean, I think, you know veranids too so i mean i think you know but generally those are those are not kept appropriately if you keep a monitor appropriately you can give it a basking spot you know 150 degrees that it needs to you know keep that high they're they're kind of like a high octane species and they need constant fuel and constant heat. But, you know, in the wild, a lot of these come from maybe areas where it does cool down, like, you know, Parenti in central Australia is going to get,

you know, lower temperatures in the winter and they're going to slow down and hang out in a cave where it's, you know, more thermally stable and wait until it heats up and they can go out and get more food. Now, maybe they come out later in the day and, you know, in the heat of the day, it gets warm enough that they can go eat and properly digest. But I think a lot of reptiles are definitely programmed to know, you know, when things are changing, you don't want to tempt fate and start taking down a big meal if it's might get cold, but you know, that, so there's a lot of things that go into that but yeah you know that's true there's some that need that constant input and i think you

know that's what i was mentioning with the you know the and i mean what's what's what's cold to you what's cold to you yeah yeah i mean and i'm just saying cold that shuts down their metabolism a little bit yeah has them slow down you know so and you know i i think that that differs for again for different species like i mean i i we were out cruising in northern queensland um around cans area and we were looking for you know jungle carpet pythons and and um it was rainy and it was you, in the low 70s or high 60s. And, you know, I think it was probably 10 minutes after I said, we're not going to find any carpet pythons in this weather. There was a jungle carpet crawling across the road and he was highly active and very feisty.

And I was like, OK, so, yeah, maybe my idea of what they need or what kind of temperatures are good for them is off base. You know, maybe they do better at seventies or, you know, sometimes, but you know, they, they need that range of choices. You know, I don't know if he was out hunting or if he was just trying to get back to his, you know, shelter side or what I, you know, I couldn't ask him. He wasn't very responsive to my questions. So, you know, it's hard to say what he was out there doing maybe looking for a maid or you know you never know um what what gets a snake out then out and moving sometimes but you know the the uh i i you know he could have been hunting who knows i i don't know it's hard to say but despite your best line of questioning yeah it still remains a mystery

uh his answer was just a hiss every time and a strike, you know, like, okay, all right. If that's the way you want to play it, I'll just take pictures and let you on your way. You know, it'd be fun to just follow that thing around, you know, but, and, and, you know, with, with pythons, uh, they're also built for a sedentary lifestyle. They sit and wait predator i would i would almost venture to to wager if you you know found a python in a in a tree hollow or something and you didn't disturb it but you stuck a you know a pre-killed prey item in there for it to eat it would probably stay in the same place for the whole year you know unless it adds and you stuck a you know the opposite you know gender in there for it to to make babies with and you know, unless it adds and you stuck a, you know, the opposite, you know, gender in

there for it to, to make babies with and, you know, and you brought it food and you brought it a mate and if it didn't have to go out, it probably wouldn't. They're built to sit, sit around, you know, and they're highly efficient. So they only need a couple of prey items a year. I think that was another part of Gavin Bedford's research. And hopefully I'm not quoting this wrong and he can correct me if I'm wrong. Um, but he showed that with like Stimson's pythons, they needed like maybe 20 mice a year to, to just perform, you know, the basic functions of a Stimson's python. So, I mean, that's what, 20 a year, that's one every other week at the most, you know, just to, so, you know, they, they don't require a lot of food and, and, um, and, you know, I, I'm not sure how he calculated that or what, what went into that. I can't recall the,

the details of it, but that's kind of what stuck in my mind is, you know, are we, if we're feeding once a week, we're probably feeding a Python too much. That that's kind of my take on that message. But yeah, maybe if you're feeding a fuzzy mouse once a week, um, you know, I think he calculated based on a certain weight of mouse, maybe it was like a 15 to 20 gram mouse or something. So if you're feeding a five gram mouse to a, to an adult, they probably will like go, what are you doing? But yeah, the whole thing will just be in their mouth. But I mean, my first, the first year, uh, babies of Tracy, I, they're going on three years old right now. And they don't, I'm kind of like, man, am I just, am I not feeding right? Like I,

they just don't, they're, they're really lean. They're long, but they don't look like three-year-old. What, what I, what, what I would, what most people, well, I think what most people, I'll say that, what most people would consider a three-year-old scrub python to look like. And, and so, you know, I. How many, how many three-year-old scrub pythons has anyone seen in the wild? You know, like that's the thing. And that's my, and that's to my point is, you know, we, I think we kill it all with kindness and anthropomorphism and, and, uh, you know, they're, they're, you know, and, and I mean, to be honest, uh, I, I get, I get the idea of more feeding to get animals size and, and, and,

and in a breed, in a breeding regime, there there's probably, I mean, I think there's shines research research will back up that, that, you know, um, in a, in an area of plentiful prey resource, those animals are highly reproductive. Um, and, and a lot of animal, a lot of babies can be produced there because there's a lot of resource there and where there's not a lot of resource, less babies get produced because it's, it's just a cause and effect of, uh, of the predator predation, uh, you know, plentifulness. Uh, and so I think, you know, term that the golden spoon hypothesis when you're born under a good year, you know, these, these water pythons were hatching in a

good year and got plenty of prey and they went on to have more frequent reproductive activities and larger clutches and and more you know offspring overall so of course you know they want that and and and again that you know maybe is particular to their early life rather than when they're adults. So, you know, those kind of things have to be taken in context as well. And I think, you know, in that research, I don't know if he was looking at longevity of adults and things like that. You eat a high intake of prey. You can suffer from the natural health effects of eating a lot. And I think when you look at captive breeding, you can kind of leverage the ideas that Shine proved out to help you breed more animals. Maybe those animals don't live as long because, you know, they're, they're being revved up younger and, and they're there. And like, so like what we were talking about earlier is, you know, let fed more frequently, more, uh, larger prey items, maybe, uh, they live less, but they produce more eggs in that period.

Whereas, you know, an animal that was fed less will live longer and produce the same amount in a much longer period. So it's kind of, you know, to be honest, I don't know that there's a right answer to the way you should feed your python or your reptile. But I think it definitely has to do with the goals. And I, I think that's kind of, if you want, you know, an animal for 20 years and it's your pet and then, yeah, don't, you don't need to feed as much and smaller prey items less often. Uh, but if you, if you, if you're a breeder and that's what you need to do, then, then maybe, you know, having a bit more of a, an energy intensive, you know, food regime that's, that's regularly, you know, given is appropriate. I stuck my thing in there, right? Regular, yeah. No, I, you know, I, I, I think, well, I was listening to, to Nick

Mutton on Eric and Owen's podcast or on Morelli pythons radio. The most recent NPR. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, he was, he was saying that, uh, you know, yeah, you can feed them more often.

They're just going to poop it out. So you're basically, you know, feeding, wasting your money by feeding them large meals that they're not going to metabolize appropriately. Now, you know, I, I, I've, I've read some papers where I'm pretty sure there's, they're, they're pretty highly efficient even with larger prey items and they, they are able to metabolize. But I do think there is a trade-off between size and how much energy they're getting it out and how much waste they're producing from that food item.

But I, I'd have to refresh my memory on that research. But there's some papers that have been published that show, you know, with different sizes and different frequencies, you know, how efficient they were and how much energy they got out of those meals. So that's, you know, that's also very interesting and applicable research to this discussion. But if, let's see, what was my other line of thought in that regard? Um, if, if you're, you know, with, with, uh, kind of going back to the maximum size and adult size, you know, differentiation, that was another thing Nick hit on as well as like, we, we think they need to be

this huge animal. And oftentimes those larger animals that are overfed and have huge fat reserves or whatever, they're, they're not the best breeders either. You know, you're lean, you know, three-year-old, uh, Tracy is going to be a much better breeder than some, you know, giant 12 foot Tracy, you know, he was saying how many, how many 16, 20 foot scrubs do you see on eggs? None, you know, I mean, I wouldn't say it's, it's, it's impossible. Yeah. I don't know that I would say that I, but it depends. They might be 20 years old though. You know, like, I mean, I think there's like, depending on the species, like if there's male combat, the males are going to try to be big, right?

They're going to try to be the tough guy and they're going to try to pass on their genes. So, you know, it's not always an absolute, like a smaller male is going to be a better breeder because maybe, but you might need to combat them or, you know, get and have them expend some of that energy that they're building up and use that size to show they're the boss to kind of stimulate that breeding so again i think scrubs is a good example of of uh a species where males are big boys oh yeah so and they and they can they can kill each other yeah you gotta be really careful if you're combating a but you know throwing a shed skin from another male and watch them lose their mind and paste the cage and freak out you know yeah i think there's definitely safer way yeah yeah exactly but you know we we need to keep keep those natural history elements in mind i think that's what it all boils down to if you're paying attention to the natural history of your the animal you're keeping you're gonna probably fare a little better now are there tweaks

to that of course i i really like that quote from Terry Phillips where he's like, yeah, we have prairie rattles around here and it snows, but I'm not shoveling snow into my prairie rattler cage. That just makes sense. And so we need to find the important, minimally needed things that will result in success. And I think a lot of times in herpetoculture, we get to a point where we're like, okay, this is what it is. I just have to do this, or I just have to follow this schedule, or I just have to feed it, you know, 20 mice a year and I'm good. You know, that might not apply in every situation you might have, you know, it might be warmer where you're from, or it might be colder where you're from. And if you're feeding 20, that's too much, or it's too little, you know,

it's, it all depends on, on you. And so that's the key is we need to be observant. I love Eric's, you know, where he's calling it student of the serpent. I don't think he coined that. I can't remember who, uh, maybe that was the guy. What's his name? I'm, I'm terrible. I can't remember names to save my lives. But, um, anyway, the, uh, uh, student of the serpent, you know, watching what your snake does, watching kind of the success or output or whatever, and taking that into account and building that knowledge and, and, you know, your success over time. And, and I think a lot of times people want that boiled down and handed to them in a nice little package. How do I, how do I be successful with this animal? Well,

you know, care sheets, they want the care. Exactly. They want the care sheet option. And I think everybody's been guilty that, because that's a good place to jump off. You know, that's a good place to start, but that's not a good place to end. When you don't know. Regardless of the outcome, you're going to follow that care sheet no matter what because so-and-so was successful with it. Well, and I kind of feel like that's kind of the appeal of field herping, I think, is a lot is people go out and they say, man, I can observe these animals in the wild, what they're doing. I, you know, you kind of figure out quickly that all of the great things we glean is from natural history and nature is the teacher.

So, you know, going out and field herping gives you the opportunity to, you know, you can watch what it does in a cage. But if you watch what it does in nature, that will far informs more than what it's doing in the cage. I think. Oh yeah, exactly. I mean, like, you know, like you said, if you went into, you know, find a wild Tracy, you're going to see something that's probably lean and thin and smaller. You know, if you could, I love the, the example that Daniel Natush gave. He was at that arboreal symposium that they put on a while back. Yeah, that was a little while ago. Yeah.

And he gave a talk. I wish they'd do some more. Yeah, I didn't make it to that one. Ben Morrill was there. Yeah, lucky Ben. Yeah, I didn't make it out to that one. It was on the East Coast. But anyway, he was giving a talk about wild green tree pythons and he said that he's seen like three out of a thousand that were over a thousand grams. she reproduces you know and then you're getting like 30 eggs and and 20 slugs from this giant you know six foot female or whatever that's over a thousand grams and you know or or two or three

thousand grams you know however you however big they used to get them or still get them i guess in a lot of cases some but you know i think the trend is is moving towards more reasonably sized animals. Yeah. And the majority of green tree pythons in the wild are around the 600 gram mark. They're not huge animals. They're a small species of python. Yeah, for sure. Do they reproduce regularly in the wild?

Probably not. If your main goal is to reproduce an animal, you might want them a little bit bigger. I don't know. You know, I don't know how that plays out with success. But, you know, there are a lot of females that die in captivity pretty regularly because people overfeed them, I think. And they have other issues like, you know, prolapses or, you know, tail hanging because it's full of crap, you know, that just too much energy that they can't really handle it or something. You know, and they're maybe dehydrated on top of that because they're kept too warm. And there's all sorts of things that go into that.

So, you know, it's hard to say this is exactly what's causing it, but we know what's contributing to it. And overfeeding is terrible. It's really interesting when you stop overfeeding those things and you stop overheating those things and you just keep them perched very simply. They're so easy. They're just freaking super hands off. Like just don't open the cage in the middle of the night and get your face bit off. And that's really the biggest thing you have to worry about.

I mean, they're super easy. And I just think that, you know, we, we can be our own worst enemy sometimes. Um, and, and conventional wisdom being the root of all evil, you know? Uh, and, you know, I mean, Hey, we're learning and growing all of us together. So, you know, nobody's fault. And somebody got an animal to a thousand grams and they bred it and they said, well, that's, that's what it is. That's what I needed. It didn't breed until it was a thousand grams. Yeah, that's it.

That's it. So not taking into account that it, you know, was not being, you know, not being kept the way it wanted to be, or it was imported. So it was stressed and it took several years to breed until it settled down. There's so many things that go into that. And it's hard to fault the people who that information on wild green tree pythons wasn't out there. That was kind of one of the reasons I wanted to write that book was because that information wasn wasn't out there and there was a lot of misconceptions about what a green tree python is. There was information out there and even green tree people at the time were like, yeah, this book isn't the best book on what we know now. Maybe this information is dated and we need to update it. And, and I think that, you know, that, that, that we can look back on older books and, and cringe a little and say like, ah, like for the time, that was the best information that we knew, but that's why you buy, that's why you buy the

new edition, right? That's why you're updating the carpet Python book. Like things come to light, man. You know what I'm saying? So, and I, you know, frankly, we learn. Oh, right. Right. In the second edition of the carpet book that you mentioned, um, we, I realized we hadn't really talked about that idea of maximum versus adult size. And, you know, so I went back through some of the papers and I realized there was some really good research and papers that we'd quoted in the first book, but we hadn't made the point of the average size of all the adults that were collected is this, you know, so that's, that's in the new edition. So hopefully there's more information and helpful information and, you know, kind of in that context of some of the misconceptions, you know, oh, coast, everybody

says, oh, coastal carpets are 14 feet long well yeah one might have gotten that big or a couple you know i've seen some some some of my buddies out on the east coast of australia have found some pretty freaking huge coastal carpets um are are they the key reproductive animals in their population probably not maybe they're the top male maybe they're the the you know that big huge guy that's uh getting all the ladies maybe they're 25 years old or yeah maybe they're 80 and they're retired and they're just hanging out in the rafters of a barn and wiling out their days i you know who knows so maybe they're addicted to you know brush tail possums and they guys

go catch more brush awesome they're just so they're so tasty i just love the taste of a brush-tailed possum and you know they were showing the introduced uh um animals like uh the brush-tailed possum speaking of those in darwin area they were kind of invade becoming an invasive species in that area and the darwin carpets were getting big there were some huge male darwin carpets and darwin carpets uh you know have that male combat uh they they like to fight each other and so you know that's maybe they're they're taking advantage of those new species and getting bigger and bulkier and heavier and tougher or whatever. So, and I think a good way to keep, uh, at least a lot of my pythons lean is to feed them smaller, you know, smaller meals. So they,

they, they tend to grow longer and stay smaller. But when you start upping that food size and you're increasing the, the size of that food, the diameter of that food, that to me, that's when I see that animal really start to girth out and get larger. So I think I think they're, you know, in in a in in kind of just a natural response to the type of food they're intaking. You'll see how their body reacts to that. And when they start taking big, big meals, that's when you see them girth up, you know, but if you keep them on smaller meals more often, at least, at least the scrubs that I've seen, they tend to just grow much longer and stay much leaner. Now I'm sure you could take that to the max and really just, you know, pump them full of smaller meals and, you know, uh, all the time, all the time. And they'll start to get, you know, fat over that, but you know, it's really, and I see it in

younger animals when I'm transitioning to rats or something that's a little bit bigger. That's when I really noticed them start to change from, you know, a skinny, lean animal to a little girthier of an animal. And that was back when I used to probably feed a little heavier and maybe that's completely anecdotal and all bullshit, but that's, that's what I kind of noticed, you know what I mean? And, uh, well, you've adjusted your feeding, you know, regimen accordingly, you know, and I think, you know, uh, uh, baby, you know, uh, nursing rat, uh, fuzzy is going to be higher in fat content than a, than a weanling mouse at the same size. You know, that weanling mouse is going to have, they're starting to eat solid food on their own. They're not nursing from

their mother. They're a little leaner and, and scraggy, you know, they're trying to make their own way and they're a little scragglier. Um, they're going to be leaner and less, the animals are going to put on less fat because of that. So I think it depends on, you know, what you're, what you're feeding as well, what species. And, and I think that some of the, some of the reptiles, you know, like the, their size maybe dictates what they're getting fed to some extent, like say like a large Python, if you're, if you're feeding it jumbo rats, what are jumbo rats? They're like retired breeders. They're old and fat.

All my retired breeder rats are fat. That's why I usually get rid of them is when I see them start, they like, is that pregnant? Nope. It's just fat. You're out of here. You know, you're, you're done. And, and, and, but then I go feed it to my snake. So they're getting an extra dose of that old fat rat. And so, you know, the animals

that are of a larger size may be more prone to obesity and captivity because they're getting those older, fatter, you know, retired breeders. And maybe we should be feeding something else, you know, maybe we feed a- Or, or maybe you feed that old, retired rat and you don't feed that much. You know, you feed very, very infrequently. So, you know, you have to change. You have to change. You give two of those a year or something. Yeah, exactly.

Depending on how it behaves. Yeah. So paying attention, being a student of the serpent, you know, keeping an eye on your animals. No matter, you know, if Chuck tells you to feed it every week, don't listen to that necessarily. Don't listen to Chuck. Don't. Don't. He's way off his rocker in that.

Make your own decision. Look at the natural history. Give them an infrequent or an irregular feeding regimen, and I think they'll be better off. But pay attention to what at the same time, if Justin tells you that infrequent feeding is clearly the way to go with your baby snake, don't listen to him either because he may not know what the freaking heck he's talking about. So, well, I don't know. I pretty much exhausted what i have to say about this i think that's a good discussion on the topic i i think we brought up you know some reasonable things to think about and you know again just pay attention to your snake you know

yeah if and don't just assume you know everything off the off the bat or off the first year because you read a good care sheet or a book even like you know the complete carpet python that might not be all you need to do is just read that you might need to go do your own research or go find them in australia or do whatever there's a lot of things to learn i'm sure nick and justin would say that's one of the things you need to do but probably not the only thing yeah probably not the only thing. Yeah. Probably not the only thing, you know? So, but you know, that's,

uh, that was a good discussion. Yeah. Not bad. Not bad. Covered some good ground, but yeah. Yeah. I don't know if that was a,

uh, mild disagreement, uh, club or a, or a reptile fight club discussion. I'm not sure, but a good discussion nonetheless. Yeah.

I got a little angry nonetheless. Yeah. I got a little angry there. Yeah. Um, cool, man. Well, yeah, we, uh, appreciate you guys listening and, uh, thanks for, for supporting us. And, uh, if you've got something to fight about or you want to fight somebody, let us know. We're, we're welcome to, we want to have some other opinions and input on this show. So, you know, hit us up. If you want to fight, let us know. So thanks for listening and we'll catch you next week for another Reptile Fight Club. Later, everybody. Fight Club. Thank you. Outro Music