Reptile Fight Club - Grilling the Expert w/ Christopher Brown DVM

Episode Date: July 17, 2026

In this episode, Justin and Rob have another installment of Grilling the Expert w/ Christopher Brown DVMWho will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comIG https://www.instagram.com/jgjulander/Follow Rob @ https://www.instagram.com/highplainsherp/Follow MPR Network @FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQWebsite: https://mprnetwork.transistor.fm/

All right, welcome to Reptile Fight Club. I'm your host, Justin Doolander. I'm with me, as always, Rob Stone. How's it going, Rob? I'm doing well. How about you? Yeah, yeah, can't complain. If I did, probably nobody would listen,

so I skip the complaints for now. Yeah, getting excited for IHS. That's just around the corner here. Well, I guess about a month away, but, yeah, getting close. Fourth of July is fun holiday, So looking forward to that. It's my wife's holiday. So that was kind of co-opted from the beginning of our marriage.

So yeah, we go with her family. But they have a pool, so that's nice. Yeah, I picked up a thermal camera, so I'm excited to try that out, too. It's, I went outside and, you know, scoped out the dogs, like right after I got it, but I haven't done, like, a full field test yet. But, yeah, kind of excited to try that out, see what I can find. But it should be fun. Yeah, anything new or exciting with you?

So you haven't tried it in the HRP room yet then? No, not yet. I don't know how realistic would be. Yeah, I'll bring it to HHS and do a little herping out there. Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah, I know, as you say, you got the holiday coming so busy at regular work, busy at the extra, and then, yeah, so all good, though, all good.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, obviously it's not going to be as useful for herpes as it is for mammals and birds, but we'll see. Yeah, but maybe, right, with either retained heat and the question was, you know, based on the functionality, if it'll show things that are actually cooler than ambient, then we might see things that have been estimating and coming out. So, yeah, I'm very curious to see it in action. Yeah, yeah, that'll be the hope. All right, well, enough of the chit chat, I suppose. That's further in you. Yeah, we'll bring on Christopher Brown. Chris Brown, how you doing? Great, happy to be here.

Thanks for inviting me on. Yeah, I appreciate you coming on. So why don't you give us a little bit of background about yourself? You can go in as deep or as shallow as you want, and we can follow up with nosy questions if needed. Sure. So, yeah, I, so I'm here based in southeast Louisiana. Not originally from here, though, originally from the Northeast, New Jersey, born and raised.

And then after graduate high school, that was in 2010, I moved out to the great state of Oklahoma and the prairie, Stillwater, Oklahoma. Went to school there at Oklahoma State University. I was there for eight years with the goal of becoming a veterinarian, which I was successfully able to complete. In undergrad, I was heavily involved in the Wildlife Society, a couple of biology clubs. I was a Wollogy major and a wildlife biology major. So I've always kind of had to focus on wildlife

and conservation. And it was probably around that time when I went to Stillwater that I started getting more into herping a bit. I was always into, you know, reptiles. Like this is a common theme and story from a lot of people, but since I was younger, really, I mean, and growing up in New Jersey in the 90s, early 90s, I, you know, I was nine months old when Jurassic Park was released in June of 93. So that, that movie had a huge influence on my life. Right.

I was also raised around the time when Animal Planet was kind of peaking. Yeah. Steve Irwin, Jeff Corwin. Right. And then Mark O'Shea was around during those days too. But, and he still is, but his show was getting. was you know had quite a following as well so you know I my dad he kept you know he wasn't really a herpticulturalist he he a couple things on the side but he did have some cool things

you know back then green iguanids were big right he had a big one down in the basement his name was Iggy um but uh you know one that always stood out to me in which i have aspirations of working with but the price point is just pretty high right now but is the Shunosaurus, Chinese crocodile lizards. He had one of those in the 90s, and his name was Godzilla. And unfortunately,

you know, that was the time people really didn't know what they were doing until the captain cared with them. And he actually gave him, lent him out to someone on a breeding loan. And, of course, when he got him back,

the lizard wasn't in very good condition and didn't make much longer after that. My mom, said I tried to exhume Godzilla. When we buried him, I was very upset. And there's sentimental value now to own one again. And I will. I just need to set aside the funds and the space as everything.

It's kind of difficult when you don't have a desert need of building. Right. I've got a couple friends that breed those or work with them. They seem like they're being produced here and there. Not too commonly. Yeah, exactly. I have a friend, a couple of friends actually down here that do work with them. So I'll probably end up at least getting one, hopefully two or more from them at some point. But there really is no rush.

Right. So, yeah, I mean, unfortunately where I was, and I was raised in northern New Jersey, only about, I mean, my high school was on the border of New York State. It was also in the most densely populated part of the state. So very close to New York City. I mean, I was 20 minutes from the George Washington Bridge. Right. Fortunately, there was a lot of development up there, and the HIRP diversity was a bit limited,

although you could find them more in the like the Palisade cliffs. The palisades are very cool area. It's along the Hudson River, and there's just these massive drop-off. points. You could look up the geological history of that area, but it's a very unique place. And there was some things up there. New York State also, there was a great state park, second biggest state park, I believe. It was about 40 minutes from my house called Harriman State Park, which should have a pretty decent, you know, her diversity as well. But, um, really? Nice. Did you,

did you find anything? So there's definitely stuff there. You didn't turn it out on that day. But yeah, we'd go on with our local folks that are up there, plus the PA folks and all that as part of a junket. Nice. Yeah, maybe I'll hit you up for some connections up there because, you know, I was there. I always try to go and hike when I'm there,

but I don't, you know, I'd only go back once a year or twice a year and I don't always have the time. But it would be nice to establish some connections. But, yeah, I was kind of quite far from the pine barons, which is what people think of New Jersey Herps. I just think of ticks when I think. Yeah. That's really horrible up there. Yeah. Blind disease, especially. Yeah. So, but yeah, unfortunately, like my area, just because of the, the development, it was so patchy, fragmented area. There wasn't a whole ton of diversity where I was. But if, you.

you got out the palisades or herrimand you you start you started seeing a little more yeah um but in oklahoma yeah i mean really i remember specifically my i was so passionate about reptiles at that time that i i remember even before classes started in my freshman year i was already linking up with researchers and their um zoology departments to help out with a collared lizard study eastern college that they were doing. It was a behavior study, which was really cool. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, as my academics progressed throughout the years, you know, unfortunately, I just couldn't explore the state as much as I used to. I did take a really good trip

down to southeast Oklahoma after that, with a couple of her folks after my freshman year. And I was spring of 2011, probably early May to, it's called McCurtain. County, that's the extreme southeast part of Oklahoma. You have a lot of diversity there. It's like kind of the north-eastern extreme of American alligator goes into Oklahoma. So that was cool to see. You have some cool heart diversity in that area as well. And that's where I got my first prairie king, copperheads.

Do you see any of the Western Pygnee rattlesnakes out there? No, I did not. I would have loved to. Trying to think back, that was so long ago. I was recently came across some photos, but I was also into birds too. I mean, that kind of took over for a long time afterwards because, I mean, I've always been into birds and herps.

A lot of my herps are considered maybe bycatchauch of bird watching. I have an extensive bird-burning list. I mean, I noticed a HIRP podcast, but I mean, I have, I traveled to quite a few countries looking for birds. And now I always incorporate a herping trip or two in those travels. But right now, I think I have over 1,400 species. Oh, wow. And I'm trying to get, I'm trying to get 5,000. So really half the species.

So, yeah, but, you know, with academics and everything else, especially once you hit vet school, things kind of just... Take a sideline. Yeah, the free time in keeping as well. I mean, I had a YouTube panel back in high school. It was so funny. I had just shy of a thousand subscribers that... Showing my collection back.

I mean, this was when Brian Barcheck was, like, peaking and... Right. You know, on YouTube. And I would always go to the White Plains Expo, which I really enjoyed. It's been a long time since I've been... but that was in New York State. And, you know, I didn't have a, I kept snakes in my closet. My mom wasn't too happy about that.

But those were, those were some really special years. And, but, you know, unfortunately, the keeping, when I hit school, I did have like a Mississippi Mapt Turtle in my dorm room early freshman year, which was allowed. But, you know, the keeping really subsided until, A little in that's going to get some boa constrictors. I actually, this was now, I was in Vescuble from 2014 to 2018. I did have some Dominican Red Mountain bows too, which were just starting to get popular.

And then, you know, I left Oklahoma. I graduated in 2018, and then I, you know, moved out west and Washington State. And I really, honestly, looking back, I should have done more herping up there. I really didn't do much. Right. It's tricky during, especially during a, you know, professional degree, you know. So you did your, your DBM in Oklahoma then?

Okay. And up to Washington for a resident? Yeah. Do you residency or is it? No, no. I did not to a residence intertrip or residency. I just went right into small and mall and, you know, which really in the long run wasn't for me.

I still do it on the side. Right. Kind of pays the bills, right? That's what I hear from another bed. Like, it's hard to do anything else because that's where the, you know, the money is to keep you employed. Exactly. So I kind of did that until around COVID, and then I transitioned and eventually found my way to laboratory animal medicine, which I really do a lot better. And is that, so that's what you're doing now down in Louisiana? That's what I've been doing that since like 2021. Okay. Do you like oversee the animal facility at the university?

Is that kind of? Yeah, I'm not the director, but I am a clinical veterinarian at the unit. And yes, we, I'm able to see a lot of the, we have a lot of rodents, you know, the stuff we feed our snakes, mice, rats, and, you know, help train residents that are interested in pursuing specialty in lab animal medicine. And then, you know, a lot of didactic courses, students, also on the eye, you know, an alternate member on the IACICC, which, you know, the IACC, people, people like to roll their eyes at the IACC. But it is important. It is mandated. Yeah. By, you know, the federal government. So. The IACCAD committee overseas and regulates animal usage at the university to make sure you're being ethical.

treating them humanely and things like that. Exactly. And, you know, my, my, uh, the guy who oversees our, our facility, animal facilities on campus, he, we did our PhDs in the same lab. And so he finished, he had a DVM. So he got a job as a, uh, research professor in, in our group. And then after, um, the, the former director quit or retired, he took over.

over as the director and that actually was the spot I got when I finished my PhD was his old job. So it's kind of good timing. Yeah. Yeah. The IACUC is, you know, the governing body of university researcher for using him. So he's he's really good to work with though. So it's been nice. Yeah, he's kind of the head of the IACUC and the head of the facility.

So it's good to have a former, you know, lab mate to be the head of those things. You know, it's not that we get any favoritism. He still makes us jump through all the hoops, but, you know, he understands what we're doing. And so he's pretty helpful. Like, he's not a blocker. You know, he's kind of facilitator. So that's always nice. Yeah, you're all part of the same team.

We're trying to drive good research results. And with good results comes good to animal care. Right, right. So while we're here, Chris, what is the, that, licensure process look by state. So is it a state government thing? Is it just based on you graduated from school? Is there additional test? Do you take, do states accept licensure from other states? What does that look like? No, there's not like reciprocity, so to speak. You have to get licensed in each state that you practice in. So in Lab Animal, there are a little more exceptions to that. Typically, like, you could essentially have like just say in Oklahoma license and still work in a lab animal facility as a veterinarian in Louisiana. But that is not the case at all for, you know, a small animal practitioner. Like dog or cat, you'd have to have that.

So that state license. So, but in lab animal too, you know, you have the option to get specialized as. as a board-certified laboratory animal veterinarian. In vet med, you don't, again, most private practitioners in dog and cat world pass their boards for what we call the Navley. It's a national licensing exam that you take at the end of your fourth year of veterinary school. And that's fine. Like most people do it, there's nothing wrong with that.

you have the option if you wanted to pursue further specialization. You could be, you know, you could do an internship, um, rotating small animal or exotic, say rotating internship and then go on to, uh, specialize in, you know, surgery or internal medicine or radiology or dermatology. There's a lot of specialties. One is laboratory animal medicine. And there's two ways to go about that. It's not, it's not like this for every specialty, but for lab animal medicine, you could get through the kind of get it's not really a grandfathering in but you could basically instead of doing a residency

in lab animal medicine you could work like six years in lab animal and then you have to publish a paper be a first author and then you could sit for your exam so I'm now basically eligible to take it with this you know paper actually we just literally just was accepted with

actually Zach Dr. Lofman was on it as well but but yeah that's just We'll chat about that in a bit Yeah we'll talk about a little bit Put it in that yeah Yeah so

So that's what I do now Is there a vet school at Tulane? No There is the only vet school So there's not many vet schools at all I mean when I was applying to vet schools back in late 2013

early 2014, I guess. That was only like 20-30. There's a few more now. Yeah, our university just started one. Utah State University. Yeah, we have a, well, we had a two-and-two with Washington State, and now they've moved and transitioned to a full four-year vet program at Utah State. So my wife actually works for the vet school and started a bet.

Not all of them now, like historically, they used to all have with teaching hospitals attached to the university. Not all them do. Yeah, not the one here. We just have like all the local vets that kind of help out, I guess. Yeah. I know, you know, Clemson recently started one as well. But, you know, it's, so yeah, at that time, there wasn't very many. Right.

But the only one we have here in. the state of Louisiana is LSU. That's in Baton Rouge. Did your vet school in Oklahoma, did it have a teaching hospital? Yes. Okay. It's one of the, like, I guess there's like historically the older vet schools. And the ones that have been established for decades now all had teaching hospitals.

The newer ones, not all them do. They're outsourcing more to like, you know, for your fourth year clinical rotations to go to, some private practices that are contracted with the school. But yeah, it's, you know, there's a shortage of vets. We all know that. Right.

It's, you know, it is slowly growing in a way, but still it's a hard deal to get into. And, you know, some burdens that come with it as well. I mean, I'm being, you know, especially now, just the, the student loan debt is crazy. The cost of going to vet school is high. And, you know, the salaries have gone up since really COVID for veterinarians.

Prior to COVID, it wasn't as high. COVID really, when everyone was getting pets at home, it really shot up a lot of these salaries. Which is good because when you're dead to income ratio is so high, you know, it takes a long time compared to, to, you know, like a medical doctor who, medical doctors go for years of

training. Could be up to 12 years. However, you are making quite a bit more to pay loans off. So, I mean, but still some vets do very, like, are if you own a very successful

practice or especially if in your is very regional, but if you're like an emergency medicine, we're like, you're like, our vets, man, they, they make some good, good money. Right. Yeah, my, I had a grad student that was doing a vet residency at our diagnostics lab at the university. And they told him, oh, you have to do a PhD as well while you're, while you're doing your residency. And so he got to be in my lab. He worked with Zika,

but he, um, yeah, pathology. That's another specialty of that you could be afforded pathologists. I love pathologists. I'm friends with a few. If I have any issues with my even reptiles, if I have to, like, euthanize an animal or an animal, whatever, just drops dead. I'll usually do a gross necropsy, collect the tissues, put in formal and then send it to

them. Hey, what do you see in microstom? Yeah, very helpful in that regard. And, or anything, you know, and they're so, pathologists are so smart. They know everything. He was kind of complaining because he's like, man,

these medical doctors, they have to learn like the foot or the ear, nose and throat of one species. Those specialize. And the vets have to learn a bunch of different species and all, you know, organ systems. And they're expected to know a lot more. Yeah. But then they get paid less than a doctor. They do. They do.

And I mean, in lab animal medicine, too, like the exam for that is you got to know a ton. Really, it's like an exotics vet. but, you know, geared towards research, not a client for the animal. But the list is ginormous. The backbone or the Bible of our field is what they call the Blue Book. It's this massive, massive textbook that has, like, all the potential laboratory animal species. Right. That you've got to know front and back and all the literature as well.

and then you have to know your pathology. They'll show you, you know, tissue slides on the exam and what's going on here. It's a lot. But, I mean, you know, it is a good field. Like I said, the salaries have gone up, thankfully, since COVID. And it allows me to really, you know, learn a lot about all different species. And, you know, the past few years of, I've really. really dove deep into reptiles and keeping and being more involved in like the professional

professional society for reptile amphibian vets, which is ARAB, Association Reptile Amphibian veterinarians. That's necessarily great resources from zoos and private practices and all over. So there's a lot going on. Is there any reptile-related research going on at LSU? At LSU, yeah, they do. I don't work with anyone from LOSU, they do have a very,

very strong department. When it comes to reptile related research, I know Dr. Mark Mitchell over there, he's been there for a long, long time. He is very, very well known and very,

very well respected when it comes to reptile research. He's published, I don't even know how much, but he does a lot of work with UVB. They do alligator research up there, too, Okay. They do a whole slew of clinical reptile medicine research there, and it's very bad official there. They have clinicians there that are really moving the field and making strides.

So you're not overseeing in other veterinary care or anything. Okay. That'd be, yeah, it'd be fun to kind of branch out into that and, you know, help out with their get you some exotic experience and things like that. Yeah, yeah. You know, recently I've considered, and I haven't reaching out to some of the alligator farms here, really, the only commercial, like we don't talk about commercial reptile production. Right. Like a, not herpticulture, but from like a livestock point of view, that really the alligator is the only is the only animal that would fit. Only reptile that would fit under that category because there is a, you know,

demand for reptile meat. You come to Louisiana Florida, the deep south Texas. They serve alligator all over the place. There's also the hides that they sell, you know, boots and belts and overseas for fashion. Right. There is a, you know, that's really like the only, what I would call, like, consider the livestock of reptiles is alligators. Now in other countries, they do more like snake farming. Like I know in Asia, they do that.

And I think in Africa, they might do it as a bell. They're turtles or frogs, bullfrogs, things like that. Exactly. Frogs do. So, yeah, yeah, that's, that's very cool. So you mentioned ARAV, and I'll hand you the soapbox if you want to take it for a second. It's sort of a common presentation within herpetulture, right? I just listened to really good, the CCR episode on Mites, right?

I thought there was a ton of good content there. But then in it, Clint sort of presented, possibly with the same context that I'm giving it here, the idea that a lot of herpeticulturists tend to underestimate the potential of vets to be useful or helpful and to bring their animals and this sort of thing. And it's sort of probably a historical artifact that maybe isn't totally true now, where we say, oh, vets don't know anything about reptiles and kind of prejudice. towards knowledge within the community or your own sort of personal experience or whatever in favoring that over over potential knowledge of people who are actually trained in the subject

at least to some extent so there you go i've handed you a soapbox if you want to take it yeah so and uh i believe dr zach whitman was also on that episode i recently listened to it he did a very good job with that yeah historically the relationship between the client or herptoculturists and vets has not been the best. I think it is slowly improving. I think even as veterinarians, we're starting to branch out a little more. I know the ARAB is doing more to help people, you know, clients learn about who in the area sees reptiles.

And actually on the ARAV website, there is a, uh, a tab where you could find a reptile vet in your area potentially if you put in your zip code, which is very helpful because, again, not every vet is comfortable seeing reptiles. I guess what's different between me and there's quite a few of us out there. They just don't advertise as much as, you know, I keep a pretty decently sized collection. and I also breed, and I do sell stuff on the side too. So I am a herptoculturalist. I am a veterinarian.

I like kind of being a liaison between the two. And I want to help out, you know, Loafman always talks about, but bridging that gap between the academics, the herptoculturists, the veterinarians, and all kind of stay on the same page. So. It takes a lot of knowledge sharing. You've got to be careful with, you know, for years a lot of people would gatekeep.

Which again, we're getting better at that. You know, I think also to, it's a fact that not a lot of people want to bring it their animal, especially if it's an inexpensive animal, maybe 250 or less to a bet, because it's like, well, by the time I get all this, these workups, the exam, the diagnostics, everything, I'm already past the cost of the animal. So I might as well just get another one. Right.

You know, when you take your animal to a clinician, it is a business. It's not a free service. We're not running off insurance like human medicine is. Now, there is pet insurance. I do recommend it. in fact my dog today just got a TPLO, a knee surgery, because she blew her cranial cruciate or commonly known in humans as an ACL.

And even I have it, so that's great. And I did this a few years ago. And at that point, in Jutton's podcast, again, Snakes and Stoge's, there really wasn't a lot of options for insurance for exotic animals. but they seem to be coming around more, which is good. I'm glad to see that, especially if you have an expensive snake or turtle, tortoise, lizard, just a pet on the provider, but there are more companies offering insurance for exotic animals, which is great. So now the thing is, and I always mention this, what scares me,

they people spending 10 grand plus on a Bolins Python or a Madagascar ground bow where this is not a racehorse. So this is not an insured animal. If something goes wrong, you're going to get compensated a certain percentage if it docs. You have no idea that animal has maybe some type of tumor in it, maybe some type of, you know, cardiovascular disease, heart-based mass, whatever is going on. And it could just drop dead tomorrow. And you could be out of a serious load of money.

And hopefully the person that you bought it from is willing to work with you. But there may not be people that are. And that's just to me scary. So you have to be, I don't know. That's just, it can be kind of a risky investment. I always tell people that too. I do have, I will splurge on occasion, but I do have a limit. I'm not willing to drop that much money on an animal.

And reptiles intrinsically do tend to be better at hiding those things, right, than other animals. Absolutely. So it's not necessarily even nefarious, right? I mean, that's the other aspect of that, right, is even in the framing it. Hopefully they'll work with you. is it not necessarily, there are certain problems that fall into the box of known or should have known, and there are other things that are unknown unknowns, right? Exactly.

Exactly. We're not doing a CT on a, you know, Boland's Python before the sale. So, and we're also not doing like, you know, a, you know, a BSE, a breeding soundness exam on this Bolin Python to make sure he or she is fertile before sale like you would in a, cattle or livestock. So again, you know, there's a lot more

more risks involved. I mean, if you want to spend that money, by all means, I am, you know, good for you. But for me,

just knowing how many diseases there are in reptiles and in vibians and fetching that much for paying that much for one, kind of scares me because you just never know. And they're just masters of the skies

when it comes to disease and pathogens, really up until the end. Right. It's also hard to, you know, I mean, if there's no treatment for it, you know, like, that's usually what's frustrating is like if you do get a serpentovirus or something like that,

if there's nothing you can do except supportive care, it's like, well, why would I take it to the vet and spend hundreds of dollars for them to tell me, you know, like, oh, it's just going to die or it's going to, you know, keep it separate. The scary part is, too, then that spread into your collection as well. That could just be a horrible loss. Right. Is there is there, oh, sorry, yeah.

Is there any move to, so I know there's like diagnostics labs that will do, you know, testing for serpentoviruses and things like that. Do the vet clinics have anything like that? And is there any kind of push or drive towards that with exotic vets? I don't know, like a table side, like, you know, rapid, you know, snap tests. Like we test for heartworm or take work of these is in a small animal clinic. Yeah, those probably haven't been developed yet. Yeah, I know.

And that would be fantastic. You know, although, you know, that just takes so much. R&D and truly people are willing to do that. I just don't know if that would the return on the investment from the clinic, if that would be worth it now. No, there are really good diagnostic labs out there, one which is the University of Florida. Yeah.

Have a great, you know, Dr. Oz runs that and they, well, he did. He still was in that. I don't think he runs a lab anymore, but he was the one that really, helped develop a lot of tests before him was Dr. Elliot Jacobson and you'll see at Daytona every year selling indigo snakes on his table he's got some awesome animals

and for a pretty good price too but you know yeah there's no like as far as I know like I don't I don't personally know any like table side

tests that are in development now, but I just, I'm not aware. And again, I'm not also in a in a clinic doing this every day as a reptile clinician. So, yeah, I'm not as up to date on that as some other people in the industry. Well, and another confounding factor with reptiles compared to either small animals or horses or whatever is it does seem like our local

meaning within our house or within our cage conditions have so much more of an impact on reptiles and their ability to thrive than it is for a horse say, right? It seems like that they're pretty adaptable relative to any sort of human condition in a barn or whatever that would be. Mice rats, same sort of thing at human tolerable temperatures are probably doing okay. A lot of it comes down to husbandry. And that's so variable, right? So one of the, you were just on snakes and so geese really enjoyed. with that always enjoy it with um schmiddy and phil but uh i did have some prompts out of that that will kind of hop into and out of or whatever so one of those that really jumps to mind right is

you talked about the difficulties you've had with sennikolas in your you've had generally with seneca colas and the interesting port is that so i've had seneca colis once and then ultimately i sent him um down to dustin who's in Tucson in range and all that and but he only wanted him after he found one in the wild and then he turned up too uh it's true short order and Justin was a part of that. Sadly, I was not. And still, still, uh, still, uh, still, still, uh, still, yeah, I feel feelings about it still. But, uh, the point I wanted to draw is that I found him to be totally, uh, easy and inconsequential, didn't do anything weird, kept him on paper with water and, uh, didn't even put in a moist hide, nothing like that. And they do just fine, man. And I know

their reputation for doing, you know, particularly adult males. That's what's commonly captured. They don't necessarily do well, all this stuff. I found that I got them from Gerald Mercer, as, you know, maybe it had to feed once sort of babies, raised them up to three or four years old, whatever they were when I sent them down to Dustin, and had literally no problems with them whatsoever. I think, well, what you said, you said you got it as a baby, or were they already adult?

They were Captain Bread babies, yeah. Yeah, so all mine, and I haven't had a large sample size. I have had four now, I have three. two of those were babies and I got them just they weren't even feeding it. They had just been freshly hatched. And they, the male of Seneca colus took a little, little longer to get started, but he did. The female was fine. I didn't have any issue.

I think it's an age thing too. And you see this a lot with just wild-caught animals too. I mean, the younger they are traditionally, if they're coming from the wild, they tend to adapt a little better than an adult. Now, there are exceptions. Again, I have Loxasemus here that are all wild caught, imported legally, and they do fine. So it depends on the species, but there are, you know,

they're, in general, I feel like younger animals, just because they haven't had their whole life history outside yet before reproduction, may do better. Now, again, all mine are captive bread. The two adult males I received late, well, yeah, it was the fall of last year. One just never adapted to the conditions in my house. I just didn't do that well at all. And unfortunately, passed. The other one was doing fine. and then just for, yeah, like four months decided, it's not time for me to eat anymore. So, you know, about a month and a half after not really eating,

I put him in brumation like most people do. And then I was like, all right, I'll just wait until afterwards, see how he does, you know, got him out of brumation a few months later. And he still really didn't want to eat much. At that point, I started to notice a decrease in body. condition score. I could tell he was getting thinner. And I was like, crap, I don't want him to, I actually brunmated both of them. And again, the one that just didn't make it was never, you know, didn't want to eat beforehand and then didn't want to eat after. The other one did eat great

initially, then went off. And I was like, well, what are we dealing with here? So I didn't know if it was like a seasonal thing, but then again, my younger ones that I got that really, like that young male, like I said, gave me a little difficulty early on, but both of them have been fine ever since they never went off feed really much in the wintertime. And I just, they are just a very sensitive species, in my opinion, for a rat snake. I guess I'm just thrown out there. So my room, ambient relative humidity is like, average over the course of the year is going to be somewhere in that 18 to 25% range. Yeah, that's lower than me.

Yeah, at a high end, when it's sheeting outside in the very rare occasion that it is, it'll be like up to 33, 35%. And so something that's sort of raised in that exposure, even within a monsoon environment, right, that it's acclimatized or evolutionary design to be something much closer to that with sort of seasonal variation where it'll spike up, but even not within the course of sort of hours and then dissipating. It's got to be wholly different to your room, which is probably what, in the mid-60s at a low end, mid-50s at a low end.

Yeah, mid-50s, yeah, really, especially this time of year when the ACs blow and the humidity does drop. But again, they don't, some animals just... Maybe the younger they are, the more adaptable they are to... Well, that's what it is. I think that's a major factor. and also summer just cannot adapt to a new environment, and unfortunately stress does them in.

I would have loved to do a necropsy on that animal. However, it always happens when you're away. He passed when I was away. I'd come back to the reptile room smells like, hell. My nose is so keen to the smell of death being a vet. Like you get used to that. Or even just herpeticulture. who's been in the game a long time.

Yeah. You know something is dead. I was like, I don't think this is a regurg or anything because I do try to time my feedings if I go on a trip, you know, a few days out. And I like to also like to do it like maybe

feed really no later than four days before I leave. So then I, most animals will evacuate their bells. By that time, so I could spot clean everything before I leave and really not worry about it. But I would have a lot of, love to do necropsy in that animal, but unfortunately it was decomposed by the time I got back. But yeah, I mean, I change stuff up. Now they're doing, I mean, everyone's doing fine now.

It just some, you know, maladaptive syndrome could be one of them, you know, aclemason's syndrome. These are not really legit terms, but they're just not able to establish themselves in a new environment and sometimes that happens unfortunately so um but what was your sample size rob just two so yeah mine was just the pair and they both did great um the interesting thing to me that or the kind of the parallel as you were talking about your condition's not being exactly florida or whatever but all the even clint right he was talking about um being in southern Illinois or southern Indiana, talking about Rosie Boas, you know, and sort of the idea that in that humid environment, in that ambient humid environment, that Rosie Boas, oh, we only offer them water

once a week, you know, all these sort of limitations that they have to impose that I never found to be an issue here in Colorado. So you could keep, you know, you could just keep, I would always just put in the eight ounce or eight or 12 ounce water bowl. I do. I have 30 Rosie Bowes here. That's my snake. I have that's what I that's like my bread and butter is rosies and they all do great yeah great right right I mean but reputationally right the the herb knowledge or whatever herb community would say oh they always struggle in Florida which is interesting yeah I don't I guess I mean but then again you talk about Craig Trumbauer lives in Florida I've gotten roses from him he's been producing rogis for a long time and he does very well with him you know it's it's tough to say

I mean, sometimes locality, but sometimes just that individual themselves. I've done, rosies I've been very successful with. I love them. They're easy. Chris, would you say that maybe sometimes people make excuses based on general trends or her history rather than certain. I wasn't going to say that because they didn't want to send people. But yes, I love, I love like, in Lofman talking about a little time, like,

questioning is question authority, I guess, although it's not authority. Yeah, accepted logic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because a lot of times it's, it's not always

true. I mean, the same thing goes for the subbox. I mean, I've had a subbox here. I haven't bred them, but I've kept them here for now three, four years.

I have four. Not a huge sample size, but they all do great. I mean, Dusty Rhodes, he's the guy that rode the wrote the book. I think when he was writing the book, he was living in Houston. He was thriving on them. Now, also, too, these desert species keep in mind as well, you know,

they're microclimate, even like if they're crepuscular when they come out, like a like a Centecholus, typically, you know, is like crepuscular. So the humidity levels are different and also when they're in those rock crevices or underground. The microclimate, the humidity is a lot higher than than we think. It's not like 10%. So I think that also needs to be taken into account as well.

Is that you know, like, it's not like always bone drop. Yeah. Sometimes it is like, like, yeah, like we don't, we can't predict everything when an animal's out and about. But, um,

I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,

I, about the microclimate too and a lot of these animals in desert environments are not being kept bone dry all the time. They would simply desiccate and perish. Yeah, I always feel bad for Gila monsters and a lot of do exhibits where they're under bright lights and, I mean, most of the time they're underground or in a new microenvironment. Exactly, exactly. So, you know, yes, do question everything. I always do. I always do. I do like a challenge and I'll tweak things up. I'm very in tune to the rhythm, you know, the NPR guys, you know, the rhythm of the room.

And if something is acting off, I'll just keep it eye on it. And then I'll proceed to make changes as needed. I don't always make them right away because I want to continue to observe and then I'll react if needed. But I don't want to panic. I mean, that's a lot of our people will do that early. on they're keeping, then you realize, okay, let me just give a time. Let me try a couple things out. And if this doesn't work, then we'll go about doing something different or making modifications. Assuming it's a husband-related issue and not a disease-related issue.

But a lot of times echoes hand-in-hand husband-during disease like we already think about. So I think just, you know, I try to do obs. We call observations. I just call observes. I just call OBS. That's a lab animal term. You know, we do OBS on our animals every day, health checks. And I also just do that on my animals as well. So I try to very much stay in tune about their behaviors, what they're doing, their presentation, their body posture, their breathing, their overall mentation. It's just these things I don't even think about because I'm so accustomed to doing it now for many years of, you know, my patients from day one, I was a veterinarian, they don't talk to you. So you have to use your physical exam, which guides a majority of your diagnosis and the behaviors of the animal to draw conclusions or speculation from that. So, and that takes time. And you will fail, and that's okay. Sometimes it's just not your fault either.

And, yeah, don't be too hard on yourself unless you spend 10 grand on an animal and then it dies. And yes, I would be harder myself. But I'm not too. Fair. That being said, right, being in those, having those different ambient conditions is going to eventually change the challenges that you have to sort of modify your behavior to reflect, right, so that in a more humid environment, you're more likely to have

excuse me, might survive. Right. Whereas, excuse me, in my ambient conditions for the most part, right, to the extent that in the mite episode it talks about mites looking for ambient humidity at least in the 30s. If my room ambient humidity

is in the mid-teens, they won't even survive in those conditions. they desecate. Yeah, they desecate. Yeah. And that's a nice, that's a nice thing to have. A nice problem, I guess,

it's not really a problem, but it's nice when you're in a drier environment and don't have to really worry as much about mold and mites and things of that nature. But also you have to be aware that if you're keeping tropical species that like your Puerto Rican beaux, for example, Rod, Puerto Rico is a lot different than Colorado in terms of humidity and precipitation levels,

you might have to make some adjustments, but they can still be made. I mean, who's, I forgot his name, but there's a big Amazon Basin breeder. Steve, yeah. And that is totally different than the Amazon basin. But he's successful because he's been able to manipulate his conditions for those animals to thrive, and it is possible.

And again, when you're in a controlled environment, environment, it's, it's, it's different. Now, you know, my humidity levels will never be as low as yours are, but when my room, again, like, I keep my govy right here, it's 50% in this room right now. I mean, that's, that's not like a terribly high humidity level. So that's what all these animals are exposed to. And if it's a more tropical species, the substrate I'll use would be reptid chip. I'll give them some humid hides. If they're not tropical, then I, I won't do that. But again, I just, we adapt and you just adapt to the conditions that these animals, you know, require and go from there.

And there are certain species, right, that are more or less adaptable to those things. I even think in the context of blood pythons, blood and short-tail pythons, that those I've always found, they presumably reflects both their physiology and where they've evolved, is that the conditions are relatively consistent in terms of temperature, humidity, those sorts of things. That when they're young animals, in general, they'll do fine in sort of a human room temperature plus external heating, whereas once they get large enough that they can't really get to operating, you know, temperature, 78 to 82, based on sitting on that external heating pad or the light or whatever sort of mechanism people would use, Those do a ton better when they're in an ambient 78 to 82 room,

as opposed to a diamond python that does best when kept in human conditions with access to a spotlight that'll go to the mid-80s or upper 80s. And also cooler too for diamonds. So, like, I have a friend of mine who gives quite a bit of diamond pythons here, and his room, then again, is cool. It's like the low 70s, and he does very well with them. So, yeah, you... And in that room, blood pythons would not do well, I guess, is sort of the point, right?

There are things that sort of fit either your conditions, meaning your hyper-specific room conditions, or even just your keeping style. The micro environment and the macro, right? It comes down to that. Justin, are you drier by you than, like your rooms? I know you keep a lot of arid Australian species in I... Which are they love Utah. Right. And I think it maybe is a little bit drier, not maybe too much worse, but yeah, similar to Rob, but maybe a little bit on the drier side. Yeah.

Do you add moisture to the room either in terms of a humid apart? Justin, meaning, yeah, Justin, are you adding in room or your spraying? No, mostly it's like, you know, the enclosures, you know, kind of managing it from the enclosure side. If I have one that needs a little more humidity, then I'll make sure the, it's a open, you know, front opening enclosure with solid top and sides and things like that. Are you seeing that in an animal by animal or a species by species? Or species by species, yeah. But, I mean, I do, I did get a few of the dubia duck, you know, the dubia roaches enclosures with the screen tops. but I usually, you know, put something over top.

So, so it keeps the, you know, relative humidity within there. And I'll have hide boxes and things like that that can give them that. Justin, what do you like covering those dubia tops with? Just usually, you know, a box or a sheet of, you know, something else that, you know, usually the foam padding that comes in the box with the enclosure. I'll just cut that out into the size of the top. This is snakes, so nothing requires UVB or heat, no, not necessarily. I mean, they can use it, but yeah, they don't typically give much UVB.

Cool. Yeah, I suppose you kind of bring it up there, Chris, and I'm curious on your take on this situation. So we've entered a space, particularly with snakes, right? Exactly what Justin said there of, oh, they could use it. I'm concerned that people overdo that. And sort of the, that there's an equal risk, right? So if we're in a space where we're saying, you know, if we're talking about species that have been bred and racks without access to UVB for literal decades,

and then people just say, you know, there's a shift within the hobby of, there's an expectation that everything be provided UVB and people aren't really doing that in a conscious way, that they can definitely overdo it and seriously injure or kill their animals. They can. Yeah, yeah. I think it just depends on the, if you want to just talk about snakes, it really just depends on the natural history and biology of that species. If, you know, if they are a more diurnal animal, it might be, you know,

I could see it being just more justified. Now, there's been studies, I think, and I think Dr. Mitchell did it on L.S. you about leopard geckos, which, I think there was leopard geckos, some kind of gecko, you know, that was mainly nocturnal, and they were still able to, there were still differences between control group and experimental group when it came to UVB. But that being said, and I, you know, there are risks associated with UVB, you know, there are risks associated with UVB, you know, they, it depends, everything depends on the output, right? So you've, you can, you know, UVB could cause free radicals and could cause, you know, tumors too, if too high of a dose. It could also affect

the eyes of an animal. It could cause pretty significant carotitis inflammation of the cornea. You have to be careful with it. You just can't slap like a high high out.

12.0 desert, yeah, or 12.0 desert 12.1. Like, yeah, a a, you know, a species that is not accustomed to that sort of wavelength and expect be fine. A 12.0 on a loxasemis with no high box, right?

Yeah. You won't be getting any, any sorts of UVB, that's for sure. I mean, the only UVB, none of my snakes have it. I, you know, there are benefits, though.

I mean, especially if it's a, like a diurnal species, or even, like, considered, like, with Cinnacola's, too, because I had, um, A good friend of mine who's a veteran in Arizona had one of his sinicolis died from a dystosia. So she didn't pass eggs.

And his husband really was very good, but I always wondered if, you know, UVB because it obviously has a huge effect on calcium, if that would help potentially reduce the risk of dystosia in an animal that you may be more crepuscular or diurnal. but I don't know as far as I know I don't I don't think many studies have been done on that but that'd be interesting but yes I would caution you know not everything needs UVB in terms of snakes we you know snakes are obligate carnivores so their calcium metabolism is different than that of an obligate herbivore like a turtle, tortoise, or lizard. So you just have to be aware of that. Right. I just got a solarometer earlier this year, so I've been kind of comparing things like that.

But I went and so I checked my UV lamp on the lizard cages and it was not putting out anything. And so I had a spare bulb on hand. So I changed it out. And then it was, you know, up to like, you know, six to 12, depending on how close to the source you were. And then I went outside and, you know, it was maybe early spring. And I checked the UV outside and it was like, you know, three or two. You know, it was pretty low depending on the cloud cover and the angle of the sun and things.

But, you know, I'm sure that increases as the summer wears on and things like that. But yeah, I mean. Summer, no clouds. Sure. Yeah. huge difference between that UV-Bolting. Even like obligate herbivorous reptiles, they don't, like, there's been studies too,

again, Dr. Mitchell has shown that, you know, you don't need, like, when they look at the D3 levels, you don't need it, like, all the time, like even just a couple times a week or a couple hours a day are sufficient, not 12 hours. Yeah. And more and more research is coming out about that, then I love it.

And I think it's just going to drive the hobby, drive the field, drive the captive care and husbandry for animals. I wish Moore was done with, you know, with snakes. And it is. But historically, you know, the UVB conversation was a lot of our herbivorous reptiles. But more is coming out with snakes from the hobby aside. But again, like I said, there are dangers with skin lesions and potentially can't. answers, eye issues, and, you know, a lot of other things that I don't think people consider,

but always, always, you know, really, like you said, especially with these animals that are high dollar. And I know the solar meters, they're quite pricey, but they are worth the investment if you have a lot of animals. Right. Using that, you know, are you, be bold. And while we're there, so a thing that's a group that seems like a good candidate would be Max Decofus and that brought to mine.

Interesting question. That's what I was thinking. Yeah, but while we're there, right, the interesting question of buttermilk racers and you're in the state you live in now, right? And the idea of people seeing tumor, you know, seeing tumors in association with older animals that have more of that white pigment and that really kind of neatly fits into the box of the whole idea, right? That mutation animals, your albino cow king might be a particularly poor candidate for

UVB over the top of the enclosure. Exactly, and it affects their eyes big time. Albinism, you know, a lot of animals do not like albino animals like in all. They're very photosensitive. That's the proper term. And the lighter animals, like you said, that's not, you know, yes, and the buttermilk racers have been seen,

but anything with white, like you see this all the time in certain breeds of cattle that are white, they're at much higher risk of squamous cell carcinomas. Also with dogs, lighter color dogs are at risk of cutaneous hemangiocercomas, which can be due to UV light. So, you know, if they're kept outdoors or have a lot of outdoor exposure, being in the mountains where you guys are, you know, people with Pyrenees and everything, high elevations going on hikes. I mean, the UVB, you know, levels up on peaks, 14,000 foot peaks are strong. I mean, dangerously strong. And if you're always exposed to that, yeah, I mean, for human, especially where for, I mean, there's a lot of people that are ever in me, too.

I was surprised, you know, what a few people that I know personally, a few vets too have gotten basal cell carcinomas from strong sun exposure here. So you got to protect yourself. And again, I know I know I'm talking about human medicine now in a way, but. Well, and that too. I mean, I think people, sorry, go ahead. Oh, just, you know, in regards to that, like, I was just at the dermatologist with my daughter and we were talking about skin cancer and, you know, sun exposure and things. But I think we've kind of gone the other way, too, because of the fear of skin cancer, now people aren't getting enough sunlight and they're having, you know, vitamin D deficiencies, which can have its own challenges. Yeah, I live in Pacific Northwest for three years.

I think probably the majority that population has to be free deficiency. I think the majority of any population anywhere, you know, especially if they're wearing a lot of sunscreen or not going outside. And he said, you know, it's a measured exposure. If you're going out regularly getting, I mean, that's what a tan is, right? Is that melanin coming in to absorb those harmful rays and protect your cells or your DNA from being damaged, which is kind of the root of or cause of cancer, right? you mutate the wrong place in your DNA, which is kind of keeps the cells growing properly

and stopping growing. More importantly, when you knock out that, then your cells grow unchecked. And then that's... We're more likely to get a sufficient ghost to, with less time in the sun, if you have more of your body exposed. Right. I'm not feeling to go outside walking around naked because you don't want your private parts to get burned. But the more of your body is exposed, like with your shirt,

it off and you know you're your short shorts on the more d3 you will be right you know then then if you're you're on like a long sleeve shirt and just your head is exposed long pants which honestly i do being down south with the the bug burden down here and just the sun as well i anytime i'm in the field whether it's herping or birding i'm always wearing long sleeve long pants i wear a hat i just don't like getting bit but it also i just don't like getting burned either. Well, it kind of, what you just said, right,

is reminiscent of the idea of keeping veranids, which I think maybe you do right behind you. That would be my guess as to it's... Those are Carushia. Okay.

Okay. I don't keep veranids. They're cool, but they're a lot of work. There are a lot of, yeah, they're high maintenance. I mean,

I think they're awesome. If you had the setup, the facilities, they're super cool. I mean, the little, the smaller ones, like, you know, the Kimberly rocks and everything.

Justin, I think you have some Australian veranids, but... I used to. I don't have any currently. Okay, okay. Yeah, I kept a couple different kinds. They're cool. I've always had this thing and just, I don't mind the herbivores. I don't mind the snakes, you know. But, you know, the varanids, you know, their metabolism is just so much higher, even though a lot of them are carnivores.

You know, some are, you know, you look at the, Graze monitor, but no one has those except to doves, but they like they eat like fruits and veggies and stuff, but they're just more, like the insect eaters, I just don't like insects. My wife is a vet too, but she does, like, they're just insects

that are panneastomy. And by all me, I have people that work with that, that's cool and all, but I don't want to deal with insect eaters. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the thought process with that, right, relative to the UVV concentration or D3 concentration idea is the idea, right, using a bank of lights rather than using a single light.

If you have sort of a larger-sized lizard, Odatria, you're probably fine to get away with using a single light that it's going to expose it to to warm up its entire body. But if you have a savanna monitor that's too big, you have this concentrated spot of light and it's trying to elevate its entire body temperature utilizing that one spot, then you're going to get a burn associated because it's going to sit too long in that same spot, right? That was the thing you jumped to mind as you went in that conversation. Or disconnecting the heat and the UV, you know, like having it, you know, they need to be in conjunction with each other rather than. Historically, and there was, you know, it was like, yeah, you do need a little heat for proper UVB, you know, like, and then subsequently D3 uptake and everything.

Like there needs to be a heat element involved as well. I don't really like every species is different and I don't know like the levels on that I'm not like at what temperature and at what way and blank the UVB do you need to does an animal need to optimize their UVB uptake and subsequent D3 production I don't really know I don't think many I don't think I'm sure it's variable depending on the species like my for example like my Carushia here I only and a lot of people provide them with. some heat too. My room does get, you know, pretty warm during the day, not smoking hot, but it gets, you know, the low 80s. I don't even have a heat lamp in there. I do have a UVB in case they want to use it. They usually they don't, they're, because they are nocturnal. They're usually in their cork bark most of the day. But sometimes I catch them under there and that's great, but they're able to escape that if needed with, you know, the cork barks or they go under the the substrate sometimes.

There's like a little mat that I have that they go under. So yeah, anyway, it's a very, very interesting conversation. A lot more research is going into it. Yeah, I don't think every snake needs UVB and just be cautious with it. Learn, you know, do as much research as you can in the natural history of the animal and make your best judgment from the literature, from the books that are out there, which I'm a big fan of, and also from experience keepers,

not don't always believe what you read on Facebook groups. Right. Yeah. Well, cool. Let's jump into a couple other topics that had come up on the snakes and stogies. One of them, you had an interesting, you brought up an interesting concept around the idea of whether we have obligations

to work with species as captives, right? there's a lot of conversation around like should we essentially I do think we're with the reduction in diversity of wild caught animals that's happened over the last five or ten years in captivity do we have an obligation to work with those things that quote when they come in or on that you know rare instance that they do ideas around whether there are species that are better suited to common captive conditions or not whether things yeah we've on NPR I previously framed that as they're just species that are different. or quote, they suck, you know, or whatever, that just are difficult captives and don't necessarily, it's not that, you know, the common refrain is, oh, no one cared. And that often understates sort of the difficulty associated with some of the particular areas or some. Yeah, I think it really truly depends on the, gosh, this is such a, it's, this is vague and the fact that every species is so different. Some will come in and they'll never establish themselves because, one, maybe they're two old. Rob, like some older Seneca colists that don't like to adapt. Maybe if you get them younger, that's better. Or, like, for example, Calabars, right? Calabars have been coming in. They're super cheap. I'm telling you, one day those things are not going to come in anymore, and they're going to jack up in price. But the wild caught ones, especially, are mainly adults, and they are difficult to establish.

However, some people have been very successful with them. I will say, one of the first snakes I got back into, for five years ago because again, I've always kept, but in terms of numbers as big, it's, it started when I moved into my house here in Louisiana because I finally was able to purchase a known home. I couldn't do that for many years because of school and moving, renting, you know, um, I had picked one up and, you know, just like a lot of people, it just, it didn't do well. It was partially my fault as well, but, um, you know, they can be difficult to establish, But then again, you can get lucky. And sometimes some of these animals will come and grab it.

And you will hit a gold mine if you can potentially get grab it animals to successfully lay eggs or get birth. In which then these animals, young animals, now are looping back to Santa Colus, they haven't, you know, if they're born in captivity, they don't know anything about the wild. So those stressors are reduced in a way. I have I recently got two captive bread calabars and those things are amazing. Just young, you know, again, babies, I got them as, and they're doing fine. No issues at all. Yeah, you know, it really just depends on the animal. Like, I guess when I was talking about that, I was talking about like, you know, on Snakes and Toggi's, like, example, like,

like an animal like a rainbow snake. Something that specialize that eats eels for the most part. I just don't. And also protected in a lot of states too, but it's just not a good animal to keep in captivity. And even a mud snake, which I have down here, there are a few zoos that do keep them. And they are, especially ones I've read some PhD soon,

and I can't remember if it was southeastern Louisiana state for someone did their dissertation on them and the mudsnake did give birth. They collected the mudstake in like Mayor June. It was gravid. It gave birth. And they were able to like use amphiomas and scents, I think, mice or something with it. And they did take. But again, if you get a while caught mud snake from, you know, southeast Louisiana,

just snatch it off the road and put out captivity. It might be difficult to get those things going. because I don't know many people that keep amphibus. You know, they will eat other, you know, sirens and other amphibians. That's kind of what I'm talking about. I really broads it out, you know. There is a lot of sirens as well. A little, yeah, it's just like, there's just so specific dietary requirements

that you're never going to be able to replicate that or have actually done. So for the sake of the animal, I don't know if it's really worth it. And also, you know, much like, not that low, but, you know, like rainbow snakes, for example, or, you know, some states, they are pretty rare and hard to find. And I, yeah, probably best to avoid keeping something like that. Or at least, you know, target something closer to their natural diet rather than scenting mice with amphium as maybe sent like frog legs or something, like, you know, getting something closer to what they would eat in the world.

I think, again, I think if a younger animal, you're, I think you, you potentially might have a shot. I just think the older, the older these animals are, this is variable. It depends on the species, but the more sensitive species, the more specialized species, the older they are, the higher stressors they're going to experience coming just, you know, the whole life, maybe for five, ten years, they've been on the wild. Now they're in your vivarium. It can be tough.

And again, this is so species specific. Because they said, like my loxasemus that I have, they, like I said, get the shipment in. I throw them in the cage. I've literally fed them the same day. They're fresh off the plane. And they're eaten. And I'm like, holy hell. So again, you know, they're fine.

That's one species. That's not, you know, not every, a calabar, I don't think it's going to do that. But they, again, calabars can get a. establish. Sometimes, sometimes they, they can adapt. Right. Are they really just blessed that for in rubber bows? I don't know. And I love my rubber. Now you got me going and then talk about, oh, yeah, Louisa. I love my robbers. I have quite a few rubbers. Those are, those are like my favorite snakes. I need to go herping with you guys in Utah because I need to get that off my life list.

That's like, that's just an amazing animal to me. I'm totally obsessed with them. I think they are yeah, they're brown, but they're beautiful snakes. I love their natural history. I like how you could find them. They're just so cold tolerant. You could find them on snow banks and like March and the high elevations. It's like, sucking up the sun and warming up.

And they're seasonal feeders. So, you know, you could, they're like Sambo's in a way where, I mean, they could go a year and barely drop any body weight or in their body condition score is still good without eating. Yeah, they're cool snakes. I like, I mean, some of the stuff I have is high maintenance.

Some of the stuff I have is lower maintenance. I do, with my career or personal life, I do like lower maintenance animals overall. Yeah. I will take them. They're great. Well, are there some species that you think are being under, you know, that should deserve more of a spotlight? Yeah.

candidates that you're supposed to. Yeah. That would adapt well, but that are underrepresented. Well, yeah, and I was sorry about the suggestions, and I brought up many times in this pocket. See, those locks the same, I'm telling you, they are very underrepresented. They don't always come in. It just depends on the year, but I think they make great captives.

They don't must. They don't bite. They eat well. Like I'm seeing one now running around his cage because he's hungry, but, um, they're fantastic, fantastic snakes. So they're not the empty cage syndrome animals that I hear sometimes described as? They're out and about. Depends on the time of a day.

I mean, if you come at noon, they're not going to be out. But now this time of day, the sun's down and they're out and about. I think, I think they're fantastic. I mean, that's the one that I really, I have quite a good size. little breeding group now and they take a while to sexually mature. Right.

But they are, they're really cool. Well, they've had an interesting captive history, right? So if you look at literature from the 80s

through the early 90s, I think they were principally coming out of Mexico and then that closed. And so they were a really high status animal, right? A lot of the pictures

and records from were in zoo collections, things like that. And they basically went through a fallow period. It basically being unavailable with a few stragglers that are around because it seems like they do live, have the potential to live for a really long time.

And then within the last 10, 12 years, something like that, they opened up a quote on them for Nicaragua. And the interesting part of that is that I had seen that on the CITES list. They are their appendix two animals. Right. And so the part that was interesting is that a quota opened from Nicaragua to get them. But I talked to Cameron and he said, I have no context there.

There's no infrastructure. There's no, on the very front end, when they first issued that quota, he said, well, that's great, dude, but I don't have any way to actually get there. There's no one for me to talk to to get them. So that infrastructure took several years to build out. And then they started coming in the, who's the guy who is he a ballpark? Marky, Josh Markey. I think it was kind of the first one to start, you know, somehow he got a conduit.

So the infrastructure to get those animals. So he started getting them. And we actually had an influx into captivity. So it wasn't just the Mexico staff. Those started. And then they went out back and some of the other sort of the more normative sources for importing it things. So obviously the infrastructure built. It was almost like the quota preceded the infrastructure to send them out.

And then now that's subsequently been developed. And it is a thing that went from being super high end to through the fallow period. We've seen that with plenty of things, even Carusha, you know, as he said. And then now they are readily available, but you're probably, you know, right. That is that spigot turned on before the infrastructure existed. It's probably going to turn off before the infrastructure stops. Yeah, yes, exactly. I think it will turn off at some point.

But, hey, I'm right in the high, man. I am, buy them while they're low because they're like stocks, you know, because then they're going to. If you have faith in them, then you might as well buy them. I'm already committed, already got money into them. And if you like them. Yeah. I do like them. Yeah.

Pretty low maintenance. I think that's a common thread with a lot of these imports is people don't get them because the imports are so low cost that they're like, well, if I breed these things, that's a lot of effort to sell them at import prices. I think you can get, you know, probably double what an imp or more or what an importer is asking for a captive brand animal if there's a demand and if people are excited about them. but sometimes it's a little hard to compete. You know, why spend, you know, $200 when you can spend $50 and get a wild-caught animal? I think it's, you know, a common thought process, even though they're going to maybe lose that animal a lot faster than they would have captive bread, you know, in the U.S. animals. Exactly. Exactly.

Well, and while we're in this space, but still on the Carusha, it's interesting. I would think that just being snakes as opposed to Carusia that have a baby or twins annually, you know, a funny thing to me was always the idea that, oh, well, Carusha used to be disposable. They used to be super inexpensive, all this stuff. And my, I think sometimes we then failed to acknowledge that that was probably wrong in the first place. Those were only easily available in those habitats because so much time had allowed that population to build up at their reproductive capacity. That was never the true price. We had just externalized the cost on the environment and said, oh, well, I could easily go collect 50 of them.

But that was the effort of 20 animals over three years or whatever to do that, and they never should have been $70. That was never the true cost. It was their externalized cost. We're probably closer within this loxasphemus of saying, well, they probably, you know, annually they're having five. six, seven, eight offspring, whatever it is. So it's maybe they can be cheap. But it's just, you know, with your interest in that, I always want to bring that up and have to take your thought.

What is the true cost? We make it, right? It's like that's made up. We, we, it's supply and demand. But, I mean. But when this supply actually represents five years of reproductive output for that island, and we just, sure, we were able to collect it in a month, but that doesn't mean that it can be replenished in a month.

Exactly, exactly. And thankfully, I mean, Carushia now, they've reproduced pretty readily in captivity if you have the right pairing. I mean, they are, you know, one of the few social reptiles, and they do live in family groups. But still sort of in that shingle back spot of like, okay, so if they're completely cut off and we're again in that space of saying, okay, if you get some activity from your pair and you get that one, baby for the year, given the family group dynamic that you talk about, you're probably not to be too keen to send that out, let alone to send out multiples from it, all those things. Yeah. No, no, yeah.

It's, I guess it depends on your goals, too. I mean, if you're going to be, some people just want them as a pet, which is fine. Other people want to breed them and make money off of them. Also, the social dynamic of the group itself. I mean, they don't all get along. They're like humans. if you have a pair that's not compatible, then crap, you might be shit out of the left. But if you do have a pair that's compatible and they are, they're both doing well and driving,

there's no reason to split that group off unless maybe your goals are, you know, again, if your goal is to produce, then that's fine. But if not, that's okay too. So I think it's just, yes, it's very, it's a, you could approach that in many different angles. Preston, do you have singlebacks? I wish. That would be great. But, yeah, they're just, have typically been out of my price range.

I know. They're not. Not many people work with them, and they fetch such a high price. They're gorgeous. And it is kind of funny because you go over to South Australia at the right time of year. I mean, we saw 40 of them in the wild. in the right time of year. They were, I mean, you know, the guys are like,

why are you stopping? We've seen like 30 of those. I'm like, I don't care. I'm going to stop for every single one of these things. They're just too cool. And, you know, I think if that was the case, and all of a sudden Australia said, hey, we're going to allow some exports.

And, you know, shinglebacks are $500. And I'd probably, you know, maybe buy up 20 of them or something. And, you know, over time and have it. a big group and try to try to get several pairs that are that could produce but otherwise you know if just have a pair or something it's it's so unless you just really want them and you have $20,000 burning a hole in your pocket you're there's not much sense to it because you're not a project forget forget that forget forget that uh i mean i know there's super how many people

do you know that work with them here in the states there's a few i mean i've talk to maybe, you know, five or six people that have bred them. And that's just people that I've come across, you know, we went and visited a facility. We saw a very impressive collection. Yeah. And he's producing, you know, a few, several a year and doing really well with them, has them pretty much figured out. So, you know, hopefully we'll see the increase in the availability. But, yeah, there's, I think the supply is not going to come close to the demand. I think the biggest opportunity I had, I probably would have got fired for it, but there, I, we, there was one at the, at the Hurt building at the university. And it was kept in a, like a wood box with no lights. And I was like so tempted just to take it, you know, because like I would give it a good home. And I was just really frustrated to see that, you know, but.

What did they, was it just like a teaching animal or what? No, it was a confiscation. For some reason, they'd given it to the university. And you would think they would try to do a better job. But, yeah, I was like, and it died, you know, not too long after that. And I'm like, what a waste, you know. What a waste. Impressive to be able to mistreat a shingle back sufficiently to kill it within a separate of time. Yeah, right, right. Uner impressive, yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what do you do? I think if it was now, I probably would really press, like, give me that animal. This is inhumane, you know. Like you guys are, I'm going to call the authorities. Or do better. Yeah. While we're in this space, Chris, the last thing from the snakes and sogies was kind of the same conversation, but within the context of ESA listed species. I don't know if you have sort of any differential thoughts within that context.

Yeah. Well, we could talk about, so the native listing and the non-native listings, I could talk about. I could talk about it for a while and I don't want to piss some people off because I could go on a soapbox and I could get emotional about it I thought it's big professional. Now the ESA, I think for like our native species, you know, let's just say as an act,

it has benefited some animal. I mean, look at the American alligator, for example, right? I mean, historically was very low numbers. Now it's like they're abundant everywhere. I mean, I think Louisiana actually has the most, the highest population density. Bald eagles, California condors, like all sorts of things. Yeah, like, like, I get it. And I also, there is an economic impact, though, for people that might utilize that land that does need to be, you know, considered.

Okay, so like, it's not like, I think just with the public because they, oh, yeah, let's protect everything. and yeah it's all hunky dory and whatever and that that's dangerous because they're not you have to it it could also affect a listing can affect people as well i just i don't want that to um i don't people to overlook that because there is an economic impact and whether or not you want you like it or not we need money to survive i don't care um how how anyone puts it we all need an income we all need to live on something. So if the listing of a species, you know, impacts. Well, maybe particularly when we, you know, and maybe this is a dichotomy or drawing, but the thing that jumps to mind with that, right, is so McCreye on Batanta,

it particularly, so we're talking about listing a species that doesn't live in the United States. So, yeah, that's where I was actually going was, was, was that part. I don't understand, like, the non-native, protections is... It's an active industry. Where I am like, I just see that really having more

detriment than help because again, it looked, for example, turtle and tortoise world because this is where it is something that really pissed a lot of people off and understandably so was like the listing of the Egyptian tortoise a few years back. I mean, they haven't been legal.

imported into this country in decades. It's been like since the 90s. You can't hardly find them in the wild anyway. It does nothing, nothing for habitat protections in Egypt, Libya, southern Israel, where they're native to. Unfortunately, so that's under what they call the, was it section 4D? That's the, that's the, yeah, it's like the 4D rule. That's where they're like protected.

Unfortunately, the federal government just doesn't consider hobbyists or herptoculturalists. They don't believe in the invisible arc. They don't believe that we have anything to do with conservation, which is that's actually what irritates me a lot. And I'm going to, I'll keep it professional. But that's where they get it really wrong. And they need to restructure some of these laws because, there in fact is we do have a role in protection and we do have a role in captive propagation if it's done ethically there are good people in this hobby and unfortunately just all the negative press portrays us as bad but we need to start focusing on the beneficial and positive aspects of keeping the Egyptian

tortoise, for example, you know, like, well, actually, we were talking about that, but like, let's just say, like, there's so much knowledge sharing, too, when it comes to this. I mean, look at, if you want to talk about snakes, too, I mean, look at the, look at the barkers. I mean, they, they were the first ones to produce, like, 12 python species that no one had ever produced in the world. And you could use that knowledge to benefit zoos and private keeping and also share that to propagate species that may be imperiled in the wild. You know, I have, because it can get confusing, but like, I just think that, you know, also like you create a genetic bottleneck, especially if it's like a 4D listing where, you know, you can't, you can't, you can't, can no longer sell them. So some people are just like, well,

I can only sell within state. I don't want a gift. And maybe they just have one or two species. Well, they can't, like, if that's it, like their income that they use to propagate and all the husbandry that's involved could be like totally slashed. And, you know, you're just creating a genetic bottleneck.

Essentially. Within that state, right? Within that jurisdiction. Yeah, within, And then not every state to eat. I mean, like, yeah, you have giant states like Florida and California and stuff like Texas. Okay, maybe. But like in a smaller state, yeah, you're, that's not helping at all.

So I just, it also doesn't like all the, it doesn't do anything for like poaching, smuggling outside of the U.S., like nothing. I get. So the reason why they do is because they want to like prevent the laundering, right, of these species. They want to. Right. He's trying to remove the gray market. And I get that because that is a problem and the biggest smugglers in the world historically have always done that.

And I understand it. But there needs to be more, we need, there needs to be a balance here. And this is just, I think this is really detrimental for genetic diversity, for genetic bottlenecking for people who, you know, do use these animals for sale historically. now they can't, you know, if, again, if you don't, if you work. And if you're removing that value, right? So say in the context of Batanta, if McCreye is listed, okay, right now, you know, there actually has been an expansion, as we've seen with Nick and Ryan going over there

and that sort of stuff. There has been an expansion into sort of eco, the ecotourism angle, right? So in that specific example, there's some, there's still some utility to them. But if you're talking about, like, that ecotourism was born of the collectors, right, who gain knowledge about how to find them based on collecting them for the industry. And the whole idea has been, right, if we're in particularly when we're talking about third world conditions, you know, as you'd talk about, you know, people really just looking to survive, the utilization of those resources will take one form and another. And if we're removing the fiscal value of those

animals, then we're risking that they'll be eaten. We've seen, I mean, the Malcolm Douglas, right, was sort of the proto-steaver went even earlier and you can still see some of that stuff on YouTube but he went out with indigenous folks in western australia much closer to the border this would fit into the justin's i naturalist there are no records from this you know 100 200 square mile area or whatever but they're out you know in the in the red center but in w a area with no roads these sorts of things and this is the late 80s early 90s so we're talking about a wuma that would have a u.s commercial value of 8,000 10,000 dollars something the most beautiful clean banded even even banded orange on cream uh one way that you can imagine and because the utility to the

indigenous people there was as me they crack it over the head and eat it for the five dollars worth of meat that it is when you know that if there was a conduit at a capacity for that to be exported that that's 10 000 versus five dollars worth of meat that's literally the difference based on the market those market factors Exactly. Exactly. I think that's a great point. I'm not going to be the one that fixes that issue. This needs to be, this needs to be spearheaded by the industry. They're herptoculturists themselves. Unfortunately, we like piece ourselves out as, oh yeah, you do turtles and tortoises. Oh, yeah, you do snakes, you do lizard. But really, it's an industry as a whole. I would love it if they were able to, you know, it really needs to be updated. and, you know, that captive-bred wildlife permit or whatever, that's impossible to get. But, you know, they make exceptions, though, for, like, you know, like public institutions, zoos and everything. Even that's really tough, though, with ESA listed species in particular, right?

So the example that I have the greatest clarity into goes to Jamaican bea's. And even for Audubon, say, But they're threatened, though. Sorry, Rob, not there. So the Egyptian tourists, I believe they, the SAA, they're threatened under the 4D, but the Jamaican boas are endangered. It's a whole other level of status. Longer. But go ahead.

Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. I guess the point that jumped out to me is saying like, oh, we typically view it as sort of haves and have-nots. we're framing ourselves within herpeticulture as being within that have-nought box. Oh, the public institutions have capacity to sort of act despite the ESA and they can transact, not in a monetary, but in a, you know, it's easy enough for them to do. When we're talking about ESA listed species, even institutions have a difficult time managing that. And it does often come down to sort of the whim or feeling of a particular inspector or employee or whatever.

and they have a lot of discretion within that space so that I know, you know, get it in terms of importing European lines subflavus into the U.S., that even public institutions here, it took them like four tries to be able to get one shipment. Yeah, it's based on the discretion. Yeah, it's wild. Because again, yeah, like they're the endanger, which, you know, I was, like you said, more protections, but, you know, I just, it's depressing.

It's sort of a cynical or negative space for sure. How about, I know we're eating a bunch of your time. You're good. What can you share on the Indigo stuff? Oh, so, yeah, that was actually just accepted for publication. So I can talk about it. So that was very, very cool. I go away, so this is flashback to 2024,

that the ARAB conference that year was, in New Orleans coincidentally. So I was, I attended that and I met quite a few people there. One of which was Dr. Bogan, James Bogan at the Central Florida Zoo. He's a director for Oriand Society of Indigo Conservation.

He's like the crypto guru to cryptos serpentus, but also like Varanine and every. He's doing a lot of the work really spearheading the research behind that. And he's worked with both men before for some of as grad students doing some indigo work. So I had been, I reached out to Zach and then I also connected with Lofman.

I was like, hey, like, we should like do a project to have some funding. Like initially we were going to do something pretty small, small scale. And it just like blew up into this like super complex like project. But it ended up, it's going to be really good. So what we did and I'll, there's so much going on in this paper that. Even I'm like, whoa, like, how did I do this? But it wasn't, I'm going to get credit where credit is due because I was not the one that, I was the one that structured the project, but I was not the one that like did the analysis.

So that credit is due to my dog labs, which is out in California. They're kind of a startup, but they really work a lot with veterinarians. And their whole thing is like the microbiome, whether it's skin microbiome, oral, gut, I guess, you know, the gut, you know, the oral cavity is the start of the GI tract. But they do a lot of microbiome research, and they are able to take your data and make it develop into a format that is interpretable for someone like a veterinarian who I'm not a biostatistician. I'm not in bioinformatics. I don't do that sort of thing. So what they were doing is they were looking at, we were interested in investigating the cloacal microbiome

of eastern indigo snakes. And we had three groups. We had a wild group. We had a captive group crypto negative. And then we had captive group crypto positive. And it's crypto serpentus. But we'll just call it crypto going forward because it's shorter. and easier.

And they're starting to crank out this newer technology that's been around in humans for a little longer. It's slowly coming around in a vet med, but it's called shotgun metagenomics. So essentially, it's like anything with DNA is sequenced. So it's like bacteria, fungi, protozoa, nematodes, what the hell else? we have viruses, DNA viruses. And we're just like, well, let's look at this cloaca microbiome. And again, the cloaca is like a shared space between, you know, GI tract, reproductive urinary.

So it's like the final exit point of all the waste, essentially. And we analyze and really, the, the, The goal of project really is it's less for herciculture. It's more for conservation. So like how can we, and again, a lot of these wild snakes background, a lot of these wild snakes were, some were actually truly wild. But I think 16 were head started initially.

Bread at the zoo, then released. And then four were actually truly wild. But based on previous literature and some other reptile species and even showing here, the Kouaco microbiome really wasn't significantly different. And the head started snakes that had been out in the wild for right around a year or more compared to those four wild snakes that were caught in like southern Florida. And then, you know, not only the wild, but we also looked at like, okay, how is crypto affecting the Kouaco microbiome?

of the, you know, captive snakes, the crypto especially, like, what is going on here? So, you know, then we used, I'll try to keep it simple because the paper is very complicated, but it's about to be like the production team has like sent me somebody today and it's all laid out and it's about to just be done. It's open access to on plus one, which is the journal. So it should be available soon. but, you know, then we use certain diversity metrics to analyze, like, the diversity between the study groups. And we found some really, really remarkable things.

It was cool seeing, like, you know, especially, you know, our alpha diversity, which is, like, diversity within an individual sample. Like, all those things combined, you know, our wild snakes were significant, had significantly more diversity. compared to our captive groups for the Kulaka microbiome, which again, it's not, the Kulaka is a shared space. You sometimes will get different microbes if it's like a fecal sample compared to a Kluako sample. Okay. But yeah, we were able to analyze very in-depth analysis

and come up with all these different like bar plots, abundance plots of the, of the, the like bacterial taxa involved, the fungal taxa, the protozoan taxa, the nematotaxa, the phage, all the viruses were actually just phages, which are just like bacterial phages specifically. A lot of them are like salmonella phages, but phages are like viruses that attack bacteria. So it's like this biological warfare going on in there. And I don't want to really confuse people, but it is slightly confusing with, with, everything going on this paper, but we were able to find some really cool things.

And hopefully, the goal for conservationists and zoos and to use this. And maybe it could benefit, you know, head start programs that, you know, release captive bred animals back in the wild. Because if your gut microbiome, you know, it's influenced by a lot of things. If your gut microbiome is pretty poor, you might not make it. You might fail to thrive. And at that point, if that animal is failing to thrive, why do you? even release it out in the wild because it's going to do nothing and potentially shed

pathogens because now it's immune suppressed. A lot of pathogens in reptiles are opportunistic. So, you know, it could be a commensal and then all of a sudden you have these amino suppression and I think this happens long captivity, centicolus. And then it, the balance is off and they end up succumbing to disease and die. So we had some, you know, even our crypto positive snakes, we had what they call, like, significant enrichment, which is just like the bacterial, oh, sorry, it depended on, I'm sorry, depends on the bacteria, but there were certain bacteria like, and we found that crypto positive animals had, were significantly enriched with, it's really abundance, I should say,

with pheromones and Edward Ciela, which are bacteria and then like trichosporon, which is a fungus compared to our crypto, sorry, compared to our crypto negative groups, captive groups. And there might be something going on there where that, you know, potentially could be used in the future for, you know, treatment options down the road whenever someone comes up with a good crypto treatment.

and should we be targeting certain pathogens or not? We don't really know. But it's the, those arimonis, Edward C.L. and trachosporne are pathogenic and definitely cause disease and reptiles. And we saw that only like the significant enrichment or the significant abundance of those pathogens

in our crypto positive animals, not crypto negative captive. And guess what? They're fed the same diet. So it's not the diet. It's something going, because actually at the zoo, they feed them. They rotate, like with rats, mice. They actually do feed them some fish, some frog legs.

So which, you know, the fish, Edward C.L. and aromonas are actually historically fish pathogens. Those are also zoonotic pathogens as well. So it's just super, like, super in-depth. I encourage you to look it over. You might need to use AI to break it down for you. It's simple. It can simplify things.

You're like, what the heck is going on here? Because it is overwhelming. But yeah, we found a lot of never before reported findings. And this was really the first project in snakes using shotgun metagenomic sequencing to assess the glycoaicomycomaum. And hopefully it'll be able to help, you know, threatened or endangered species that are being head started elsewhere at zoos as well. Maybe we could use it for.

Louisiana Pines, Robb. Who knows? Now, that's a, that's a very complex area. We did a little bit of micro or, you know, gene or, oh, call the microflora environments work with, we were putting together a big program grant with that. And it seemed, I guess I'm curious on how you would envision like, constituting or reconstituting an environment that's more similar

to a wild animal in a captive animal. I know, right? Yeah. And that's where more research is needed. I think it's try to, yeah, your goal is to try to replicate really, especially the ones that have lived in the wild for quite some time, like over a year or more.

They're doing something, right? Right. And again, there's a lot of environmental factors in that. But if you could somehow replicate and use some sort of index or metric to replicate that the microbiome in captives versus that and wild, it might have greater success long term for survivability. Right, right. Getting there, yeah, that's tough because you can't always, you know, a lot of species, you can't replicate what, like in Louisiana Pines, for example. I mean, they just almost feed exclusively in pocket gophers. And I don't really know anyone producing pocket gophers.

Right, right. But, you know, they're, that's the next thing is like, yeah, how would you, how would you truly replicate it? I mean, you know, different methods that have been used somewhat. Well, I mean, it's not just the fact of adding some, like if, you know, this, oh, this bacteria is in high proportion. Just adding that bacteria, you know, it depends on if it gets a foothold, if it take, you know, like there's, there's a lot of things that can change the microchina or the microflora of the gut or wherever, you know. And it's just, well, it's influenced by diet, environmental conditions, brumation, immune health status. So there's a lot of things, it's multifactorial. There's a lot of things going on.

And it also is dependent on, I think, the species. as well. Right. So I think, you know, in terms of overall, you know, you're trying to get a diverse microbiome, that's the goal. Right. But in terms of, yeah, like, how do you replicate that? Because it's not just diet.

It's all these other factors as well, and those could change over time. But, but I mean, obviously, understanding it is the first step towards, you know, addressing it. Yeah. Like, this is now an interest in mind, but, again, I'm, again, I'm. not my psychologist. I give credit to my dog labs. They're the ones that really were the brains behind this, especially my collaborator. His name is, his name is Mark Jakub. He's just, he's just phenomenal. He was, he him and I just worked so well together. And I, I always, whenever I talk about this project with people I know or at the university, too, like with my boss, my supervisor, she's also about,

like, I just always want to give credit where credit is due because they were really to bring behind the analysis and everything. My goal was, my job was actually pretty easy. I went out and found the indigo's, the head started indigoes, which they knew where they were basically, and we caught some and sample, which was great. I mean, yeah, they weren't like, they were head started. So, like, we knew the area. We knew kind of where they were to be, but still seeing an indigo and the wild was

very special for me. And now I could say, you know, I've seen one. Yeah, there you go. That's cool. Exactly where I was going. So, did those count as finding one in the wild for your lifeless purposes? They did. I'm going to say to say to it because they did catch, they do catch some out there that are

truly wild as well. Now, the ones that I found, I know we're all had started, but some had been in kept, some had been in the wild for a few years. You know, there's other pathogens that are going, you know, especially like, you know, one thing, snake fungal disease is a real issue down here and in Florida and is impacting. And we came across quite a few of them with SMD Asians. It's kind of sad, you know. Yeah, so I have an interesting thought on that.

So I've been rereading Snakes and Snake Hunting, Caulfield's book from 1957. And in there is a really interesting paragraph where he talks about, or he really is comparing sort of the eastern Getchley Kings that he finds in the pine barons and lower barons and stuff like that, versus a particular population in Virginia. that he noticed always being sort of crusty and, you know, sort of unusual looking and things. And the thing that immediately jumped to my mind is we're talking here about SFD in the population in Virginia in the 19, mid-1950s at the very latest, right?

He's talking about experiences hunting from the 40s, 50s, things like that. And I always bring up to Justin as our resident virologist here, the idea that, you know, when we talk about serpental virus and things that us putting a name on something doesn't necessarily. or being able to test for it doesn't necessarily reflect that it's actually new and novel within the space. Exactly. And you see that a lot too in human medicine as well. But, you know, gosh, I don't know if I should bring this up. I'm going to, but I'm not going to expand much in it with the whole autism thing.

I'm just going to say, we've gotten better at testing for it than we did historically. Just a lot to really spike your blood pressure when you bring the vaccine. conversation. I always put this out there. The guy who originally published that poorly done study, but suggesting that vaccines cause autism was actually trying to sell a competing vaccine. Yeah. So it was trying to imply that the...

A polyas involved here, which is not... Yeah. Or science. But... So he wasn't like an anti-vaxxer. He was like, no, by my vaccine. because it doesn't cause autism. Yeah.

Because I remember I saw, we're friends of Facebook. I remember so commentate like a year or two ago about this, like on your page and you're like, I don't have time for this nonsense. Right. Get out of here with this. But the point I don't want to get, go down that road.

The point is that, yeah, there is evidence now from museum specimens, everything, that it has been likely around for quite some time. However, you know, when you start fragmenting, habitat and you start building that's and I'm talking about it was just in this podcast that's when

you start seeing more and more these diseases pop up because now we have patchy zones and guess what smaller population sizes in these areas disease is more likely to spread than if you had more robust and expansive areas where yeah it might be more in control because again there's always going to be disease there's always going to be balance um i just think or even influenced by ecological factors, right? When we're talking about SFT ability to expose to Basque, right? It plays a huge role in the ability to both shed and to... Yes.

Yeah, maintain those temperatures. Some could probably get over it. If, you know, it just, it truly, maybe they've got microbiomeaps with that. I don't know. But, you know, I, it's something, you know, again, it's just so many, the peril of so many animals is, a lot of people will blame, like, oh yeah, over-collecting or the pet trade.

And I agree to a point. There's some, especially smuggling and poaching, do play a role. But the biggest cause of decline in biodiversity, worldwide is habitat destruction. We're destroying these areas that need to be protected. And when you destroy them, a lot of bad things result. Even if you don't destroy the whole thing, you can leave these tiny fragments. It still has an impact.

It has a major impact because, like, for the most part, we think, like, snakes just, like, don't move a migrant. But indigo's move. Like, they've been tracked over 50 miles away. Like, they move a lot. And, you know, when you have a little area, it's, like, they're just, they can't do it. And they're going to get clipped by a car or they're across the road. there's no more habitat left because the new HOA is in town. And even Longleaf specialists, pine barrens, right, in Jersey, right,

where pines is the same way, you know, functional equivalence within that space, within that landscape. Exactly. There's a carrying capacity in these areas, and every species is different. Their role, their ecological role is variable depending on species. and we need to advocate for strong habitat protections. I mean, and captive breeding does not replace habitat protection

because if you don't protect habitat, captain breeding, yeah, you could keep the species around, but what the hell, I mean, you're not going to, you want it to be in the wild because, well, I mean, just snakes in general. I mean, we could just talk about the benefits all day, but controlling pathogens said by rodents, you know,

it's just a prime example of the benefits of snakes. And again, it's a fine balance, but, you know, I could go on about the benefit of reptiles and keeping, you know, an ecological diversity, but, you know, we'll be here five hours. And for the most part,

I think people listening probably appreciate that. Yeah, I know. I have novel points, but they'll be it. Yeah, like, I don't, I truly. like you mentioned, I know we were talking about kind of beforehand of like keeping and collecting. And I'm happy to talk about, I don't, I don't really keep, so I do have wild caught a lot of, actually the majority of my wild caught is those loxasemis, but I do, like in terms of collection,

I, I don't, like around here, I don't really collect a lot, really at all because I'm actually scared of SFD showing up in my, my animals here at home where they're not, they don't, They don't have UVB light, and I don't expose them to all these thermal gradients that they would experience in the wild. So I'm very careful with that. I mean, quarantine is super important. You know, in other areas of the country, I guess, you know, you guys out by you, Justin and Robb, you don't have to worry about as much. But yeah, down here, I mean, you just, you got to, if you collect any sort of snake, you do have to really. quarantine because I do not I do not want that shit in my collection at all so yeah awesome well

this has been great yeah yeah if you had anything else um that you wanted to hit on no I think you had something you wanted to hit on I think I think we uh we covered it all I need to uh join you guys on a herb trip out west at some point Rob it was fun herping with you a few weeks ago yeah just for a few hours there we found uh you know we found a few things the muds weren't running as much the muds i told you we could wreck the streak what did i tell you as soon as i started you said nine days in a round i said well i promise you it won't be 10 since we're here yeah but uh but anyway yeah now i need to uh just i need to go out there by you and find a rubber bow or two yeah well you'll you'll be able to have a field guide for utah pretty soon here or a uh or a or a white

Washington County, Kila. Oh, yeah, yeah. We've found a couple of those. They're a little bit of a tall order, but. But doable indeed. They're doable. Yeah. Yeah, nice.

Yeah. I'm always looking for an excuse to get down and look for them. So, I mean, when you get it out here and we'll try to go back out to that Western Veterinary Conference in Vegas. We won a few years ago. There you go. It's not the right time. It's in March.

So there's a little right. Yeah. Well, I guess depending on the year, this year. this year, it probably would have been great. It was so warm. Probably. But yeah, no. March is pushing a little bit.

Yeah. No, but I'll be back. I'll be back out there. You guys live in a great, great spot. I love exploring. Yeah. Well, where can people find you if they want to chat more about stuff? Yeah.

Yeah, you could really, I mean, I am on Facebook. I don't post as much there. I really Instagram. I do like. Instagram, I do communicate on there quite often. It's Pelican State Reptiles is my username. Okay. They could find me on there.

And if people have questions or want to learn more about something, I'm usually happy to talk and educate. I like, as I mentioned earlier, I like being someone of a liaison before, you know, for another herpticulture community and the veterinary community. And I am involved with captive reproduction of quite a few animals. So I'm the best in both worlds. And I always say to people, too, I always learn.

You know, I'm a, yeah, I'm a veteran. I know quite a bit about medical knowledge, but so much husbandry knowledge and captive care I like from other people and reading. And, you know, Justin, you know, your book, I have that. And I always read and learn and ask questions because, you know, I'm not, we all do things differently. And sometimes things work for other people. sometimes things don't, but you get better with knowledge and education.

For sure. Yeah. All right. Well, great stuff. And thanks again for coming on. And we'll thank Eric and Oan and NPR for hosting us. And we'll catch you next time for Rept Offight Club. Yep.