Reptile Fight Club - Group herping vs Solo Herping w/ Stephen Falick

Episode Date: February 16, 2024

Justin and Rob tackle the most controversial topics in herpetoculture. The co-hosts or guests take one side of the issue and try to hold their own in a no-holds-barred contest of intellect. Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the topic of Group herping vs Solo Herping with Stephen FalickWho will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Rob @ https://www.instagram.com/highplainsherp/Follow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

🎵 Hi, welcome to another episode of the Tile Fight Club. We are excited to be with you today and have a nice fight. My name is Justin and with me is Rob Stone. How's it going? Ahoy, ahoy. And today we're also joined by Stephen Fallick. Welcome to the podcast and thanks for being here. Thanks for inviting me on.

I enjoy the show, listen to every episode, some of them several times. So excited to finally get my name on one of these episodes. All right. Yeah, well, we appreciate you coming on. This will be fun. Uh, yeah, I, I don't know. We're, we're all, all about, uh, herping and chatting with other fellow herpers and you're the real deal when it comes to that. So, and you're also a burger, which, uh, you know, Rob may not get too excited about, but, but I sure do. So yeah, I do bird a lot, but I feel like most of the listeners don't want to hear about that right now.

So we can leave that at that for now. I hope I didn't just get everybody to push stop on their podcast. Yeah. Hey, birds are reptiles too, right? That's what I tell people. And hey, what else are you going to do during the winter? Yeah. Well, yeah, I guess what's new for me, my wife and I took a quick trip down to the Baja Peninsula down at the very end. Our hotel was actually called Land's End. It was like right at the southern tip of the Baja Peninsula.

So among this great rocky outcrops and stuff. And I was really itching to get out there and look for, uh, some of the Baja blue rock, uh, lizards that you can find. I mean, it's prime habitat and there'd been some records on INAT down there. And, uh, I did, I did go out one morning when my wife was kind of sleeping in a bit and, uh, the, the day that after we arrived. And so she was sleeping. So I snuck out and went and tried to try to find some, but, uh, no luck and, and I didn't want to push it. So we mainly spent time on the water. And so we did, uh, the main purpose of the trip was to go swim with whale sharks. And that was kind of a bucket list item for me. And, uh, a friend of mine from high school, he invited us to go with him and, and his, some friends from Phoenix. And so we had this group of, I think, 12 of us, uh, we were planning on going down and, uh, my friend,

uh, his wife's nephew was killed in a car crash, like the week before we were supposed to go. And so they had to bail on the trip for the funeral and stuff. So it was kind of sad there. And I guess everybody else had tickets they could adjust and reschedule and we didn't. So I went with the cheap tickets and so we had to go. So it was just me and my wife. And then they'd close the port where the whale sharks were because of rough waters or something. We're like, ah, crap. You know, that's the whole reason we came down here. Now we're, we, we ended up staying in Cabo instead of La Paz, which these was the original plan. And, uh, it was probably a good thing because

La Paz had closed the port. And so you couldn't go out on the water. And so we wouldn't have had much to do around there. So we went on a humpback whale tour in near Cabo and that's like an excellent place to see whales. The first day we arrived, you could just see spouts out from our hotel. You can see them out in the ocean just right there. It was pretty fantastic. And so we saw a bunch of humpbacks just from the shore. And then we went on this whale tour and we saw like a couple from a distance and we were trying to get close to them and they were like being really shy and not staying up very long. We're like, what is going on?

And so all of a sudden our tour guide gets this, uh, you know, message or whatever. And she's like, so we just start hauling down to this area you know ocean and there's like four or five other boats there and we get there and all of a sudden these orcas jump out of the water and we're like oh which and the tour guide said she's only seen them three times down there so it's pretty pretty exciting and they were like right next to the boat i I mean, just right there. It was incredible. And so we found out why the whales were being a little shy is because the, their predators

were in the area and they were trying to keep it quiet and not splash and not, you know, make much noise. So kind of ruined the humpback experience, but it gave us a more rare experience, I think, in that, especially in that area. So that's the first time I'd seen wild orcas, but that was pretty insane. Pretty cool. And then they ended up opening the port our last full day. And so the trip was back on. So we went up to La Paz and this tour company picked us up and they put us on this really nice boat.

It was like this big yacht and they had this food spread all, you know, it was really good food. And we went out and swam with the whale sharks. We saw maybe a dozen of them got to swim with three or four of them and you're right next to the things, but the water was still pretty choppy. So it was, it was a little rough and most, I think there were 10 of us on the tour and everybody went in once and then they're like, okay, I'm done. I saw it. I I'm good. And I'm like, can I go back for more? Like I kept going until I couldn't swim anymore. Cause the waves are, you know, my, my snorkel stopped working.

I couldn't breathe any air in and I'm like, oh crap. So the tour guide actually swam back to the boat and brought me a new snorkel. And so I could keep going and yeah, it was a good time. So I think I went in, maybe swam with a couple more whale sharks and I guess went out maybe three or four times. So everybody else was like, are you done yet? Let's go back to the big

boat and eat some food. So, yeah, but it was pretty cool. Uh, we also got to go, uh, uh, swim with some sea lions on the same little tour. So they took us first to the sea lions while we waited for our turn with the whale sharks and that, and then it's kind of a cool setup. They have this, uh, area, um, like a protected area where they only allow a certain number of boats and a certain number of people can be in the water at the same time. And it's like half of their, uh, the boats are allowed in half of the area. And if the whale sharks get sick of the boats, they can just swim into the area where boats aren't allowed. And there's somebody on the shore watching, you know, which boats go in and they can, you can get in a lot of trouble if you go in and you're not allowed.

So kind of a cool thing, but yeah, bucket list, uh, checked and swam with a whale shark and they, they're pretty impressive, uh, beasts really cool looking and nice sized. Uh, I mean, they were like 10 to 15 feet. So not, you know, like a 60 foot monster or anything, but big fish to say the least, but pretty cool. So yeah, no, unfortunately not, not a single herp unless you're counting birds, but we saw blue footed boobies. We saw brown boobies. We saw, uh, Brant's c's cormorants which were it was a lifer for me and uh you know of course pelicans were everywhere and uh different gulls mostly california gulls but pretty cool nice and and frigates magnificent frigates are such cool birds they're like

pterodactyls they look so cool and we saw there was a flock of like 150 of them flying over our just circling over our hotel it was crazy and then they just kind of you know one by you know groups by group flew out over the open ocean it was it was pretty sweet yeah frigate birds are awesome especially in flight there's nothing else that looks quite like. Right. Yeah. That fork tail and the really thin wings. They're really acrobatic and fun to watch. So we saw a few diving and, you know, you know,

going into the water. So that was pretty sweet, but fun trip for sure. Um, I put up a video of the whale sharks on YouTube. So if you want to see the whale sharks I saw, you can check out JGJoolander on YouTube and check out the videos there. But yeah, so I don't know. Season's going well. I've got a couple

gravid womas, a gravid blackhead. I think the jungle's gravid and an inland looks pretty thick down there. So I think I might have a pretty good season. May be up to my eyeballs in babies. So if you want some of my older stuff, check with me. I'm terrible at putting up ads and stuff, but still have some Antaresia, a couple of carpets left, some inlands. I got to get the inlands sold at some point, but I need to go through my list. I got a waiting list for those, but yeah. Other than that, life is good.

How about you guys? Well, as far as snakes I keep, my collection is all really cold right now uh i keep mostly colubrids mostly native lampropeltis um so they're going to be for these for another probably a month or so um but if uh last season is any indication, I should hopefully have quite a few clutches on the ground. Um, Alterna, Greer Eye, Pyros. Um, I was hoping to breed my Ruthveni, but, uh, I was looking at them the other day and turns out my female has bigger hemipenes than my male does. Uh, you know, one of those unfortunate things. But yeah, I don't want to count my eggs before the snakes are bred,

but I'm hopeful for a good season. Except for Ruthven's, yeah. Except for Ruthven's. That's one species of colubrid I have bred is Ruthven's kings and Pueblan milks. I think that's back in my early days, back when my wife wouldn't let me keep pythons, So I had to get her warmed up with little cute snakes, but yeah, there's some, I don't know. I love glue birds. There's too many cool, cool reptiles out there. We say that all the time, but lots of cool stuff to pick from. So, um, yeah, there's a, there's no Python collection,

but that, that might change here soon. I want that to change. My girlfriend, uh no Python collection, but that might change here soon. I want that to change. My girlfriend does not, but we'll see. Yeah, right. There's got to be a bit of a balance. I did agree not to keep any venomous with my wife, so that's the one thing she's really held the feet to the fire. So I haven't gotten anything venomous it's kind of illegal here anyway so probably not worth the hassle anyway but uh

that's cool um no no gray bands or do you i've got i've got gray bands so a majority of my lampropeltis that i keep are our gray bands i figured as much. Yeah. Yeah. I'll, I'll do, do you keep them like pretty, uh, strict locality or what, what's your philosophy on that? Yeah. I, uh,

I only don't have our either wild cuts or F ones that were produced by my friends. And I like to keep them cut locality matched, um, or, you know, within a mile is what I try to do. That's cool.

I'm one of those hyper-specific locality snobs when it comes to those. As you should be. Yeah. That's cool. Right on. Well, tell us kind of how you fit into herpetoculture or herpetology. Yeah. So I've always been interested in herps.

As a little kid, I started out with an interest in dinosaurs, like a lot of people. And then I realized that I was never going to see a live dinosaur, but there are live reptiles all over the place and kind of really switched my focus there. My first pet herp was an Egyptian Uromastyx when I was five years old. Loved that thing and had it for several years. At the time when I got that lizard at the herp shop we went to, it had a tank full of rats. And I asked what those were for. Obviously, they're for feeders. And my mom at the time said, you're never going to own anything that eats another animal in our house. And that lasted for about six months.

I had very supportive parents. My first snake was a ball python. And then, you know, I kept various things over the years. After high school, I got real into keeping. I had a large collection of exotic venomous, and then I got a job out of the country for a couple months in New Zealand, and I didn't have anyone to take care of them, so I sold my entire collection. And after I got rid of everything,

I kind of realized that my main interest was the native Colubrids. With a few exceptions, I've got some other things like Musseranas and Teratomaraboas and things like that. But I came back and started working on building a collection of locality Colubrids. And that's where I've been ever since. Nice. Well, now you had me at New Zealand. I want to hear about that. Did you, I just rolled both Rob and I just got the new Naltinus book.

That's a book I need to get. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's pretty thin, but it's, it's really got some cool information there. I haven't had much time to dive into it. Yeah. You know, $45 or something. Yeah. That's not bad at all. Definitely worth picking up, yeah. Did you do much herping in New Zealand?

I was there during their winter, so I didn't see a single gecko. I did see two otaras, which I can't complain there. But, yeah, I'm dying to go back and see some green geckos at some point yeah which uh island were you on the north island okay nice it's out of auckland okay what were you doing over there if you don't mind me asking uh i was doing photography uh i was working on the set of two TV shows doing stills photos while they were filming, which paid really well and allowed me to do some nice traveling while I was over there. In hindsight, I probably should have saved some of that money, but I went to Fiji and Australia and around New Zealand, so just at the wrong time of year. Yeah. Right. Yeah. My, my, my work is having a, or where there's a conference in a cold coast and it's in may, which is probably not the best month to be over there for herping. But, um, I'm planning on taking my two youngest kids and going over and heading up to cans, maybe a little more tropical with trying to find a few,

it looks like the carpets are active at least. And you know, crocs are out basking and stuff like that. So it should be pretty fun. So I'm excited to, it's always a nice thing if work's going to pay for me to go to Australia. So hopefully I can have enough fortitude to hit some meetings as well. Hopefully my boss doesn't listen to this, but yeah, that's, that's awesome. Yeah. I love New Zealand. We, my, I did a trip with my cousins over to the South Island and we basically

circumnavigated the Island and did one of the great hikes, the Milford sound hike, which was pretty epic and really just amazing. I did see some Woodworthia geckos, but that was about it. I did see a small skink as well. The Woodworthia geckos were cool. It was our last night before we flew out and we stayed at this Airbnb, really rustic. There wasn't any electricity or running water. It was just like this stone hut out by a lake. It was pretty sweet.

And I started flipping rocks behind the Airbnb and there were like all these geckos I found probably, you know, 10 or so and a woodworthy, I don't think they're described yet. They're like, they're called schist geckos. They're woodworthiest species. That was pretty cool. I looked real hard for some of the green maltinus but didn't get lucky on those. I saw a bunch of schist geckos in the land of Rohan where they filmed Lord of the Rings. The writers of Rohan arts, I guess. Pretty cool spot.

Yeah. I'd like to get back to New Zealand as well. That's a cool country. Very high on the list and also unfortunately very expensive to get back. Yeah. Right. That's the limiting factor, I think. But so now you live in Alpine and are you from Texas originally?

I'm from Houston originally and moved to Alpine in the fall of 2018 for college. Right on. Yeah. My daughter's living out in a college station right now. So that's a cool spot. Yeah. now. Okay. Cool spot, yeah. Yeah. Alpine's a good place to be located if you like herps. Yeah. It's awesome.

I actually live south of town a bit, so we get some nice wildlife in our yard. Last year, my most common snake in the yard were blacktails, and I definitely can't complain about that. Yeah, those blacktails. I'm sorry, I'm late. There was a blacktail blocking the driveway. It's a nice thing to have to say. That's awesome. Yeah, I love those Arnotus.

They're so beautiful. Yeah. Silvery gray and the dark blacks. Yeah, it's a good-looking snake. Yeah, we were fortunate to find one on our second trip, uh, down there. What a cool species. Yeah. Yeah.

Um, well, um, we, we brought you on here to talk about field herping and, and in specific, uh, specifics, uh, we're going to look at, uh, solo herping versus herping with a group, kind of the pros and cons that you can have those two different ways. So I think all of us have been on multiple herping trips with other people as well as solo. So we should be able to cover both sides of that argument. So well, Rob and I'll go ahead and do a coin flip to see who gets to fight with you tonight and go from there. So go ahead and call it Rob.

Heads. It is heads. What would you like to do? You want to moderate or fight? I think I will moderate. I feel like I'm very curious what your various viewpoints are. So I'd love to listen. Sounds good.

All right. Now for the, uh, the topic here, go ahead and call that one, Steven. I'll do heads. It's,

Oh, it's tails. Um, let's see. I'm going to, I'm going to go with solo herping. I think I'm going to defend that side of it. So, um, let's see, I'm going to, I'm going to go with solo herping. I think I'm going to defend that side of it. So, um, and I'm going to go ahead and Chuck you and let you go first.

So, all right. Um, so I guess the, uh, the most obvious advantage to herping with a group is being able to cover more ground. You know, having more sets of eyes out is going to mean that you're inevitably going to see more than you would if you were out by yourself. And yeah, is that enough to start with? Definitely, yeah. Can I get back at you? I agree fully. Like I remember a herp trip I took kind of early on in my herping days and it was the first big, you know, specifically for herping trip. And there were about 30 of us. It was a herpetology class. And my former business partner, Ben Morrill, he was in the class, um, and, or at least associated with the herb department somehow. And I had just moved into town. And so he's like, I was a grad student in, you know,

virology. So I wasn't in herpetology, but he's like, Hey, you can come along with us. I got you a spot. So I'm like, sweet. So we went down there and man, it's crazy. Like everybody would just kind of spread out and come back with, you know, rattlesnake or gecko or whatever, you know, it was pretty, pretty cool down in St. George area. So I got to see the benefit of, you know, many eyes on, you know, specifically looking for reptiles, which was pretty cool. So I, I, uh, I agree, you know, I think you're, you're definitely more successful when you have a lot of people. Um, I guess the nice thing about solo herping is, um, you're able to find whatever you find, it's you finding it. So you don't have to like see somebody else's fine. Like, Hey, Oh, that's cool. You found that, you know, I don't know. There's something about finding it yourself, which is a little, little, just a little bit more fulfilling than seeing it in nature. I don't know. And maybe

it's my competitive nature. I don't know. I, uh, I like to like to be the one that spots it or finds it, you know? And, and I think we all kind of have that two list type idea in our heads where, okay, this is the ones I've found on my own or, or the ones that I spotted versus the ones that we saw as a group, you know, so they all count, but you know, we kind of have that in the back of our heads. Like, um, we, when we, uh, we're in Southern Arizona, um, we, I think Dustin had walked, right. He was kind of standing, straddling a twin spot rattlesnake. And Chuck came up behind him. He's like, wait, I hear, I hear, is that a rattle? I hear something. Dustin's like, oh yeah, I hear it too. It's, oh, it's right, right below me, you know, right between my legs here. So, um, and then Steve found one as we were hiking back. There was a,

a female in shed that was basking, you know, out in the open. And so Steve and Chuck found the two that we saw on that trip. And then we went back and Rob and Dustin and a few others and Brandon, he spotted a juvenile. But Dustin and I were walking kind of on either side of a bush and we got rattled. We got buzzed. So we walking kind of on either side of Bush and we got rattled, we got buzzed. So we both kind of saw that one. So, and then as Brandon was heading our way, he saw a juvenile. So then, uh, when we were walking back the other way, kind of in a different Valley, I, I heard one, I found, I saw one, you know, found one on my own. So like that was,

that was my twin spot. So, you know, kind of total, but that one that I got to find all by myself was kind of the exciting one, I guess, for me. So I guess I'd counter with that. It's nice to be out there on your own and find everything you find. It's you finding it. Yeah, and I do agree with you there. Living out here, probably 95% of my herping is done alone so when i find something and i spot it it definitely means more than if uh you know my friend a mile down the road is the one who spotted it but you know that being said being able to have that coverage also means that, where was I going with this?

I had it. That's all good. Happens to the best of us. Yeah. Do you want me to throw out another point? Yeah. The one downside I see sometimes, I mean, I do, visiting with people while we herp and things like that. But the downside is you've got somebody talking to you, maybe that you're walking next to or you hear their footfalls instead of, you know, when I'm out on my own, I can hear kind of the slither of a yellow bellied racer or something through the grass. And so I'm really a little more keenly aware of what I'm, what, you know, the surroundings

and the sounds and things like that. So I feel like I find things maybe a little easier that way by sound. And if you've got a group of people around you, it's harder to pick those sounds out from the crowd, I guess you'd say. So that's another, I guess, benefit of herping solo. I guess the counter to that would be if you're herping solo and you don't hear or see something, then you're just not going to observe it. If you've got someone walking with you, then if it's just one other person, that's doubling your chance of observing that animal.

An example is, I was shining a cut with a friend, and, you know, I'm walking along, and he says, hey, Steven, you don't want to look at this? And I turned around, and there's a two-foot-long, bright-colored milk snake just stretched out on this rock face that somehow, my light went right over it, but I just completely missed it. You know, you're going to, it's like that first point, having more eyes, you're going to see more, you're not going to miss as much. Um, but I

also probably missed milk because I was the one in the group doing the talking at the moment. Yeah. And I, I mean that, I guess, you know, I, I, I agree. Like you can't necessarily do everything. And I think when you're out whole, uh, herping by yourself, you're probably going to miss some things too. I mean, that's the, that's what herps do best, right? It's avoid detection. And that's kind of their number one goal, I think out there. Um, but, uh, we, well, I guess my example of finding the twin spot rattlesnakes, you know, Dustin was standing

right over top of it, but he didn't hear it. And, uh, I, another time when we were herping with Keith McPeak, um, you know, the, we heard the clobber eye, the banded rock rattlesnakes rattling and Keith's like, I don't hear anything, you know? So I guess you're, you're hearing for, for, uh, those high pitch noises kind of goes first and, you know? So I guess you're, you're hearing for, for, uh, those high pitch noises kind of goes first and, you know, the low noises stay, but yeah, you're not going to hear a rattlesnake if so, I don't know. I guess there's cool, cool advances in hearing aids that maybe I'm looking forward to sooner than later, but so we'll, we'll see, see how that works. But, um, I think, you know,

that definitely is, is something when, if you miss something, the person behind you might see it or, you know, you're going to flush it and then somebody else is going to find it. Um, at Rob, Rob and, uh, and Dustin. So I wasn't able to catch up with the group until the following day and they were hiking a trail. And Rob was taking the approach of hiking fast to kind of catch snakes out unaware or whatever. And then Dustin was kind of doing a more slow kind of methodical search. And, uh, and so Rob had already passed through, but, um, a pair of mountain Kings came onto the trail and were, you know, mate courting and mating right in the, right in the trail, you know, just right where Rob had gone past. And if Rob would have been herping solo, I guess he wouldn't have seen that.

So that's more of a point for your side, but, uh, you know, you can employ different, different strategies of herping that way. Yeah, I guess another benefit to herping with, you know, at least one other person or a group of friends is if you're out, you know, shining cuts or hiking or whatever and things just aren't working out, you're not seeing anything, you can sit there and rattle through possibilities in your head and argue with yourself about what you should be doing differently for hours. But if you've got someone there to bounce ideas off of, maybe you'll decide we're not even in the right county based off conditions tonight. We should move.

And I've had that happen where I've been shining in the Davis Mountains out here and just maybe a leper, a black tail first, like right at dusk and then nothing for several hours. And we decided to move a couple hours east and found an alternative that night because we moved a couple hours east. If I had been by myself, I would have never done that. So yeah, that's different ideas. That's a good point. I mean, the more, the merrier sometimes in regards to having ideas, but by the same token, you can also kind of have a, the sheep mentality where you've got

so many people like with different ideas and it's hard to get, get together in a coherent group or somebody's gone and you can't get ahold of them or they're, they're at a walkie rain, walkie talkie range or no cell signal. and you're trying to get them back so you can go to that other spot. And, you know, it's kind of like herding cats sometimes with herpers. Yeah, definitely. So it can work the other way too sometimes. Rob, did you have something to say? No, I was just going to say that I think sometimes it's a good sanity check, right,

especially if it's something where you don something where a new thing for you, so you don't necessarily feel confident in your search image. There can be times where you can look at it and say, well, at least there's five of us together out here and none of us are seeing it. And we're all seeing these, especially down in West Texas, right? We're down in Big Bend over at Black Gap. And it's like, well, I do see that inch-long millipede, you know, that's crawling along and I'm not seeing any snakes. It's like, well, I think there probably aren't any snakes to see. Whereas if you're by yourself, you can get into your own head about, well, maybe my image isn't right or I'm just not noticing things that are there. Despite seeing that, I'm not seeing what's there.

So yeah, good sanity check as well. Yeah, that definitely happens to me out here when I'm herping by myself. You know, the emerald's around and I haven't seen anything, and I'm questioning whether or not my eyes work anymore. And then I spot baby scorpion running along, and you're like, okay, I can still see stuff. But maybe I'm still missing everything that's out on the cut. Yeah, that's hard. Well, we were walking, Rob and I, and, oh, man, my brain's failing me. But we were in Southern California, and we were looking for mountain kings there.

Yeah, Tom was with us. Yeah, Rob and Tom had walked. They'd flipped a couple rocks and stuff, and they left this giant log. Hold on, it's far worse than you even let on. We stood next to it waiting for you for five minutes, and I thought about flipping it. And it was very flippable despite its size. And then when you got to it, yeah, it looked heavier than it was. When you were kind of close enough for us to move on, we moved on.

And then you flipped it. And sure as heck, yeah, there was a what? What would that make it? It would be probably a six month old little Zenata under Zenata poker under there. So, yeah, that was that felt great. It both did. I mean that both genuinely and disingenuously. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, just seeing that rock or log that, you know, didn't get flipped. And by the same token, though, I guess more on my side is you know what you flipped.

You're not going to flip the same log twice. And if you're following, you know, your friends and you're a couple minutes behind, you might be flipping the same rocks they you flipped. You're not going to flip the same log twice. And if you're following, you know, your friends and you're a couple minutes behind, you might be flipping the same rocks they just flipped. You know, sometimes you can tell when a rock's been flipped, but if you're a good herper, you're going to put it back and you're not going to be able to tell, right? So you might be duplicating efforts and not finding the same things under the same rock. So, you know, which kind of requires either spreading out to cover, you know, different ground, but that's hard to do if you're on a trail. You know, you're limited to what's kind of near the trail unless you go off cross-country

and get even further behind or further away from your group. So, yeah. Um, yeah, I've definitely had that happen where I've been out flipping with friends and, uh, you know, the group gets a little separated and half the group ends up flipping everything. And then the other half of the group coming up behind them, flips everything again. And, uh, yeah, you find the same half of the group coming up behind them, flips everything again. And yeah, you find the same amount of nothing doing that.

Or a whole bunch of cool stuff in the second half of the group doesn't see anything until they catch up with the rest of the group. I guess that's more of a point on your side. Yeah. We've had that happen where you you're, you're in the second car and the first car just is zooming and they see something in the road and they jump out and the thing takes off and they're not able to grab it or whatever. And you don't even get to see it. You know, you get there and they're standing by the car with their heads down.

We missed it. It was a type and oh, thanks, guys. Or the worst is when the first half of the group spots a snake, like, in a crevice or something, and the second half comes up and, oh, yeah, we had one of those here in this crevice, but after we all got here, it's halfway to the other side of the planet at this point, never to be seen again. Exactly, yeah. Or you don't, you know, you don't grab that coral snake because you don't want to chance it with a Florida coral getting a bite or something.

Yeah, maybe that can happen. That might happen. Maybe carry a hook with you and something to cover something with so that that doesn't happen. So you'd be the only one. It's like, well, you tell me, oh, Phil, are you sure you're talking? Well, what else is dark purple, red, and yellow? But okay, whatever you do, take it how you want.

Second guess me, but I'm pretty sure I know what I saw. Yeah, okay. Or you're too slow to catch a really nice pink patch nose down in Black Baker Granite Gap area. too slow to catch a really nice pink patch nose down in black or granite gap area so granite gap yeah and the other uh thing that reminded me as we're having this conversation over by you steven

was on the west alpine cuts um there was what dr jay you thought it was sub-oc you know but then it backed up into it and we're messing it was that one super friable right and super soft and whatever and uh it was like well was that what that was or was that a big night snake that you caught at the wrong angle or what but uh yeah never will we know yeah your eyes do tend to play tricks on you i've found that when when i'm herping either with a group or solo i don't think it matters you know but um especially when i'm when i'm herping solo with a group or solo, I don't think it matters, you know, but, um, especially when I'm, when I'm herping solo, like I'll see, I'll see something in a, in, and then I'll shine a light or reflect some light in there. And it's not what I thought it was,

you know, I've seen tortoises and, you know, all sorts of snakes and it's just been a, but then, um, you know, if you have somebody there and this is a point for you, of course, but if you have somebody there to confirm, yeah, I saw that too, you know, that's very helpful. But then you have to kind of almost be herping on top of each other to be able to spot the same things like that. I flipped a, I think it was a log. It was something where they could go deeper. Maybe it was a rock and there was, you know, a crack below it or something. And I swear I saw a tricolor,

it was in Washington and I saw a tricolor like turn, you know, so I saw the, the, the coil of it kind of moving in front of my, but I couldn't tell if it was my eyes playing tricks on me. I didn't, you know, I didn't get a picture of it. Um, and then there was that, uh, that, it was a Caudilliniatus monitor, a striped tail monitor in Western Australia. And my wife, and luckily my wife was there and she saw it too. So she could know that I wasn't crazy. But I went for the grab before I took a picture, which was stupid, you know. And I still make that mistake sometimes. But, you know, if you take a picture first and then go for the grab, if you miss it, at least you have some proof that you saw it.

You know, that's happened a couple of times where, you know, you're like, I was going to believe me that I saw this. I don't have any way to prove it. But, you know, I don't don't have any reason to lie about it either. But, you know, some people might be have a little tall tale gene in them. Hey, oh yeah, I saw about 30 out there, but I couldn't get hands on any of them. I've seen that one before, don't worry about it. Yeah, I've seen bigger and better. Yeah, definitely having other people there to confirm what you're

seeing is definitely helpful sometimes. On one of those West Alpine cuts, like you were talking about, I had two friends out here. And I dropped two of them off on a cut, and I went to try a different cut with the plan to meet back up at midnight with them. And I didn't see anything. And I pull up to the cut that they're at, and I see one of my friends pointing a light at one spot and pointing. And the other friend is trying to scale up the cut. And I got real excited because that really only means one thing with my group of friends, that they see an alterna. So I slam on the brakes and pull off the road and get out.

And there's an alterna up there. It's at the top of the cut. We can't get to it. We've been trying to get to it for an hour and a half. And I go and look. Guys, I'm pretty sure that's a root no look it's moving and what i pulled out my binoculars which i always have with me and uh look at it and yeah it's just the root the end is moving in the wind and uh yeah if i hadn't

pulled up they would have sat there for the next you know until sunrise probably trying to get to this spot that was really inaccessible without, you know, potentially really hurting yourself. And yeah, they were convinced that it was an alternative. They were, they were just trying to scale right up this crumbling rock cut and yeah, could have gone badly. Yeah. That's, they would have been very disappointed when they got to the top and found a route. Yeah.

Some of those cuts are a little bit, especially like Nine Mile, if you're on the top there, it's like, I'm a little spread. Things haven't gone, or at least I'm not aware of things having gone further south. You know, you're just sort of like, oh, that's, well, even the Utah, you know, where we stopped at a spot that's, you know, past the border or whatever in the southwest corner. And I hadn't seen it during the day, what it looked like. And it functionally is the same thing, where it's got a cut on the west side. And we had gone up from – I had gone up from what would be the south side. And you just sort of take it as, okay, you're going up a fixture. And then when you're at the top, presumably it's more or less an even distribution to the ground, right?

There's some manipulation. Some sides might be better than others or whatever. But this is the middle of the night, you know, the lamp going or whatever, and it's sort of like if you were walking to Naimon, you didn't realize that it just fell away. That was basically the experience of like oh my okay well two foot in front of your headlight but you're just like wow that's solidly what 50 feet 50 feet uh straight down no no worries so yeah i don't know i guess let me interject here just from a public PSA basis.

Do people ever fall off like Nine Mile? You know, herpers like to tell stories, and I've heard all kinds of rumors of herpers falling off of cuts or getting hit by 18-wheelers. I've never verified any of the people getting hit by 18-wheelers, but I do know some herpers. I won't name any names, but there was a herper walking the top of a cut and a herper walking the base of the cut and the herper at the base of the cut found an alterna the guy on the top

of the cut got real excited and you know it wasn't nine mile but it was still like a 20 foot drop jumpster just right off the top of the cut and broke both his legs. Oh, my gosh. That is some indication for a gray band. Yeah. If you're going to come out here and shine cuts, just take the long way down off the top of the cut. Right. And away from the edge. Oh, man.

That's crazy. Yeah. I guess that's, uh, um, another danger of, uh, herping alone is if you jump off the cut, you're, you don't have anybody to take you to the hospital. So you need to make better decisions when you're alone. And, and, uh, I don't know, sometimes that's hard to resist. You see that, uh, snake up on the cut or that route up on the cut, you might, uh, take some dumb chances and wind up in a pretty messed up situation. Um, hopefully not, uh, what is that? 48 hours. What's that movie with the, the, the climber that gets his arm stuck and he has to saw his own room off. But I think if you're, if you're going to herp alone, definitely, you know, let people know where you're going and tell them kind of your plan or where you're going to be around. Try to, if possible, herp where there's a signal, you know, emergency phone type thing where it sends out a signal if you're in, in deep

trouble and the life flight will come out and rescue it or whatever. So, um, you know, that's more precautions are probably needed when you're, when you're herping alone versus herping with a group. So if you're going to do that, take those precautions because it could save your life, especially if you're out looking for rattlesnakes, you know, that's, there's a possibility you're, you're going to find one and it's going to be a little closer than, than you want it to be. You might not, uh, you know, have a great experience that way. So, um, yeah, that's just a word of warning, I guess, for the solo herpers out there. Have you had any sketchy incidences when you've been out herping on your own?

I've had runs with weird people out here. I've stepped over my fair share of leps and blacktails that were at the base of cuts. But I've never had anything that I felt was really pitchly dangerous. But there are, you know, there's mountain lions out here, and not that those are really much of a danger anyway. But, you know, feral hogs are a more common sight out here, and those are the things that really scare me, especially when I'm alone. Yeah.

You know, I have a friend who was shining in the Davis, and there was a feral hog on the first pass down the cut. It didn't mind him. On the second pass down the cut, it put him up into a tree, and he was there for an hour. Man. Yeah. And maybe if you were with one or two other people, that might be enough to persuade that hog to go the other direction. Yeah, that's crazy. I remember that video somebody took down in West Texas of that mountain lion that was just, it was sticking around. It was kind of curious about them and wasn't, you know, running away, which a nice mountain lion should usually do. So it was young and dumb or it was a rabid, which would be kind of the worst of both worlds there.

I don't know. There was a video I saw once of a rabid bobcat that was attacking some jogger in California, like just latched onto him. And I'm like, Oh, that's not good. Any bobcat that's going after you, you're probably gonna be getting some shots, uh, to, to stave off rabies, but yeah, that's not fun. I would not enjoy being attacked by either a feral hog or a mountain lion or anything like that. On the first trip we'd gone down, well, as cautious as Dr. J sounds in this context, on our first trip to West Texas, I think it was up by Boy Scout, somewhere in that way, that there was eyeshine off an obvious mammal with a little bit but not too much distance between the eyes and his response was okay cool i'm gonna go climb the climb this uh you know side of the cut slash mountain what you

know hill whatever you want to call it to uh go investigate and we were just like uh so what do we peg his odds at here um on survival so that sort of always is uh instinctual whatever no matter what he says here that's his instinctual reaction is like, Oh, cool. Let me go make friends with it. Well, I'm like, I'm not going to pass up an opportunity to see a mountain lion is probably because I saw that video and I'm thinking, Oh,

the mountain lions hang out and let you take a look at them. But it was a deer. So unfortunately, not a big cat. Unfortunately, always a deer in my experience. Right. Yeah.

So, and I mean, i guess a deer can be dangerous you know if you're out uh road cruising and you know gotta be gotta watch out either way for sure yeah i've seen some pretty vicious deer attacks i imagine more people probably get injured and hurt by here than by mountain lions out there so yeah yeah i didn't mean so one of my coaches and especially having extra set of eyes to say hey there's a deer up there on the right and look out for that yeah i in the last year i've hit uh well i hit one deer and had a deer run into my car um both times i was by myself so yeah maybe if I had somebody else with me, I would have, uh, would have been able to avoid those situations. Yeah. Right. Especially those backseat drivers

that can't really see the road very well. So they have nothing better to do than look on the shoulder for deer. Got to have some of those sometimes. Um, I, I do like the, uh, uh, I guess the time to kind of have it be quiet, have it have time to reflect, have time to just kind of soak in the nature, um, be alone with your thoughts. So sometimes solo herping can be kind of a restorative process. You can get out there and kind of heal yourself in nature and kind of drown out the noise of the world and, and just look for, look for herps and, and be one with nature. And, you know, if you don't find anything, you've had that experience, you're out

hiking a trail or, or just looking around a rock out crop or something. Um, you can also maybe do things that are a little more, uh, what maybe some people would say they're risky. You know, you're looking at new areas where not much is known, no records, you know, you can kind of go and check out new spots, especially if they're local, you can discover new cuts, you know, in your area or, or, um, den systems or something like that, you know, stumble on something like that and a new area that people don't know about. And then you have your own little spot and can, uh, explore. I did a little, uh, I guess survey this last summer and I went out, I tried to go out every day around the same time, maybe 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock around lunchtime.

I'd take my lunch and go out and hike a trail up the canyon from the university and see what I could see, record, you know, what I found. And, you know, saw a bunch of yellow-bellied racers and a couple of rattlesnakes and a bunch of lizards, sagebrush lizards. But so it was kind of fun, you know, to kind of get to know my own backyard. And I tried a new road. A neighborhood told me, oh, yeah, I was running this trail up this road and saw a rattlesnake and a rubber boa on this, you know, in the same day. And I'm like, oh, I'm going to check that area out, you know? And, and yeah, I saw about a half a dozen rubber boas that, uh, just within a couple of weeks, you know, in the springtime. So it was a very good road to cruise. There was a rainstorm that came through and I saw three, three boas on the road that night and, uh, a couple of gopher snakes and, and, uh, yeah, and that area has been very,

uh, good herping. So it's only, you know, 10, 15 minute drive from my house. So nice to get to know your own backyard, I guess you can say. Yeah, definitely. And when you're herping by yourself, you do get those new ideas that pop into your head. I don't ever hear of people shining cuts in this area or cruising in this area. Maybe I should try that out and just see what's going on. You can find some really good spots that way. Or you can go to an area where it's just never going to be productive and you could waste a lot of time there.

But I guess that's the coin toss of uh of you know being explorative yeah um and while working by yourself can definitely be uh mentally uh but your mental health and how much we like to say you know it's just nice to get out into nature if you go out and shine cuts by yourself for seven days straight and see three snakes in that week, you're going to really start to hate yourself. Yeah, you can. I don't know if shining cuts really counts as being out in nature, dude. To be honest with you. We take what we can get out here. Those 18-wheelers get really close, don't they?

Yeah. On some of those cuts. Are you able to find connections to get onto private land and have more areas to explore that way? Is that a hard thing to do, or do you find that? It's a difficult thing out here. Most of the land out here is big ranches. So getting in contact with ranch owners is, it's not easy to just walk, knock on the door and ask, Hey, can I look around in your backyard? But I have gotten access to a few places and that is definitely a much more preferred method of hunting for snakes.

Shining a secluded is better than shining an Allen having 20 18-wheelers a minute zoom past you. Yeah, I imagine that. Or sort of the competitiveness, right, on some of that stuff. I know what our second trip, right, where we were out, had posted up at Three Mile West, and, you know, there was this car that was obsessed with the idea that this was, quote, their cut and whatever. And it's like, bro, I promise you I have more Three Mile West Alterna from Stu and from Brian and whatever. You know, like, don't talk to me. But sure, okay, you found one once.

It doesn't make this your cut, dude. But just that sort of, that was the g i think that was kind of june in october we you know i love a shoulder season we were talking earlier about australia you know being new zealand or australia kind of off time and all that but uh to me you know i loved being there in october we were probably like a week or two late maybe it was a little bit it killed it a little bit early that year relative to normal, you know, talking to Brian and he was like, yeah, no, you should, you know, in a normal year you'd be all right. But now it realistically was the week before or whatever, just this year,

the way it happened. But man, when we went that first week of June or whatever, it was a whole different deal and fun in its own way. But it was definitely crazy different, you know, in terms of the scope and scale of folks. And it's hard enough, you know, if you're not private land, it's hard enough herping anyway. And then getting that sort of extra angle to it, it's a whole nother thing that kind of cuts against the, oh, I'm in nature and I'm enjoying my, you know, all those sorts of goodwill feelings that you were talking about, Dr. J. I found it kind of to jangle my nerves rather than soothe them. Yeah, for sure. Most nights, my least favorite part of the night is seeing other herpers out there because, you know, if you want to shine a cut just get there early you know be the

one to stake out the cut don't pull up at 11 o'clock see people on this cut and be like hey i have a snake from here can you leave no that's not how it works it's actually what you're doing is technically illegal in the state of texas so you know, just don't be that guy. Yeah. Yeah. Getting cut jumped by people is no fun. Having people car shine over you while you're walking a cut. That's my least favorite. Yeah. And I guess another point towards a herping with a group, if you're in West Texas, specifically, if you've got, you know, two or three people on a cut, it's going to be much less likely that other people are going to get out and start shining that cut rather than if it's just you. But by myself, I have it happen a lot.

Yeah. Yeah. That would be frustrating. Yeah. I get, I mean, yeah, definitely a West Texas phenomenon. I think you're just limited to certain areas and everybody kind of knows those certain areas. So you're right. Yeah.

Yeah. It makes it a little more difficult, but I guess that's when you kind of, you, uh, you've done your time in the off season or, or, you know, you found different areas or, and, uh, kind of explored, so you might be able to hit some different spots. I don't know. That's tricky. Yeah. And there's definitely nothing with pulling up to a cut, especially if it's a big cut. If there's one person on it being like, hey, do you mind if I get out and shine this half of the cut and you can shine the other half? I've had people do that, and usually I'm pretty fine with that.

So, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, you can have an agreement, say, well, if you find something, let me know. And I'd like to see it at least and vice versa. Yeah. We had that experience down in Tucson area with driving a road and there were three or four other vehicles and they'd found a liar snake. And so we got to at least see, you know,

the liar snake that they'd collected and, and, uh, but unfortunately, um, that also led to a DOR liar snake that had kind of made its way up onto the road. It was actually coming towards Rob when he was photographing a tiger snake and, and got hit by a car, probably doing the same thing, looking at Rob instead of the road, you know, to make sure they didn't hit him or, or were talking to him or something and didn't notice this little fire snake on

the road. So I guess pluses and minuses when there's a crowded area that can lead to the sad things. When you're solo, you know, there's nobody there to uh know your shame of hitting something on the road or when those unfortunate events occur you know you don't have to swear everybody to secrecy or what stays in cans you know what happens in cans stays in cans or whatever he just said don't stop it was just like he knew and he was just said don't stop so yeah he didn't even want to know so yeah it happens i guess unfortunately yeah for sure the worst is when it's yeah something you're you're targeting know, you, the car finds it before you do. So that's a, that's, I guess that's the different topic, but you know, nobody, nobody will know, know what you did, but yourself.

Uh, yeah. Although it didn't – Eric was telling me, right, there was some younger guy who, you know, now I'm happy for it, the proliferation of YouTubers doing Herb content or whatever. But there was a kid who pulled on the side of the shoulder or whatever and ran something over, and then he, like, put it on the video and sent it out and got a ton of heat for it and I think ultimately pulled it down or whatever. But it was – yeah, I don't think I even saw it. Eric was telling me. But, you know, that's something. It is the opposite of not sharing. This is sharing it to the world, and unfortunately the world is a cruel place. It doesn't have the context that we have of saying, like, yeah, I know that I've definitely hit stuff. I know you're, you know, I can think of one that you're thinking of, and, you know, I'm sure, yeah, it just happens.

You know, well, and you have the same for me yeah, it just happens, you know, when you have the same for me. So it's not, you know, but, uh, yeah. When your co-pilot falls asleep and you're heading back to the Airbnb. There you go. An advantage of co-pilots. See, you just wanted to go solo because your co-pilots who aren't me always fall asleep on you. So there you go.

Yeah, there you go. Um, I, I, uh, I, there's another experience I can think of. My friend was out herping with his son, so I guess not technically solo, but his son's like six or seven, you know, kind of a younger kid, but I, I think he's probably found more milk snakes than most herpers in Utah. But, um, he, uh, he and his son were out herping and there was this, they were kind of near a camp, and they were flipping rocks on a hillside. And these two brothers came up to him, and they're like, oh, what are you doing? And he's like, oh, we're looking for reptiles.

There's some neat ones up here. And, oh, I love snakes. Can we do it with you or whatever? And he's like, I guess. Like, I can't stop you, you know, but be careful. There's a lot of rattlesnakes, you know, sure enough that, you know, a few flips later, the kid's like, oh, I think it got me. And he's like, wait, what?

And the kid got bit by a rattlesnake. He was, you know, reaching his hand under the rock too far when he's flipping it, wasn't using the technique and got nailed. And then, uh then they went. So the kids ran back to their campsite and he's like, well, now I feel responsible for this kid getting bit by a rattlesnake. So he goes down to, to the campsite and finds the kids and they're just hanging out. And, and he's like, your son got bit by a rattlesnake.

You need to seek medical attention very quickly. And the dad's like, ah, he's probably fine. I don't think there's much to worry about. You know, he's, it's a long way to the hospital. You know, I don't want to ruin the trip. And he's like, I don't think you understand, you know, what's going to happen here. Your son's going to swell up and, you know, potentially rip his skin open and he's going to have potentially permanent damage to a finger or two, you know, get him to the hospital. It kind of grumbles and drives off with the kid.

But so, yeah, there can be some some downsides if people join you herping that that are not as capable or, you know, um, yeah, there's, you don't want to watch your, your, uh, friend, you know, over rocks. And, and so I, I kind of take for granted that I can, you know, I have this ability to climb and stuff. And so we'd, we'd be on scout trips. I was, you know, a scout leader type position. And, and, and I'm, I'm just kind of climbing up these rocks and all of a sudden there's this line of boys behind me, like trying to climb. And they're like, how did you do that? I'm like, oh wait, no, stop. Don't follow me. This is, this is not, I don't want to be responsible for you guys trying to follow me up this,

uh, this rock here. So go back. But yeah, so you gotta be, gotta be a little aware and maybe not make so such, uh, uh, I don't know, risky behaviors. My wife would call them risky behaviors. I just call them fun. If you're with a group, you know. Yeah, you definitely don't want to be the one from there with her experience with a group of people that are lacking in that area.

And then, you know, have something bad happen. That that's not a responsibility you want. Yeah, for sure. I guess if you're by yourself and something bad happens, that's your fault. It's all on you. Yeah. And, you know, that would be a pain trying to drive to the hospital with a hand that's swelling as you're driving or something. That would be a little nerve-wracking It might be easier to lay down in the back and let somebody

else drive you. So maybe that's a big point for you is safety in numbers to some extent. So, well, I think, uh, I think we've, we've covered some good, some good ground. Any, any other kind of parting thoughts you have and in regards to benefits of social herping, herping in groups? I'm sure I'm going to think of some, I'm going to sit you off this call, but right now I think of any, yeah, I think of some to sit you off this call, but right now I think of any. Yeah. I think of one. So to me, to this point, so the thing that I would say is the joy in success.

I'm recognizing the downside, right, of, oh, maybe it means Justin found the price high, you know, or Brandon did or Dustin in that context where it's like, well, Tom and I nearly died, but you guys did find the price. And the venture was a success since I didn't die and did get to see them. The maybe not fitting onto that list, but being on the other list in terms of like, well, the whole venture, you know, was a success in and of itself. Just that the ability to share with the group, especially in this day of social media, right, where it's, and it seems like to me that Facebook and Instagram are limiting your content more than ever, right? And we'll come back to this in a future date. But it's one of those things where it's like the ability to share that the joy of common purpose and then celebration together to me is something that isn't –

certainly isn't matched online regardless, and it's definitely not matched now where you post something. And if 40 people like it within the first 10 minutes and then you get five more likes, so it was. Of course, that's because Instagram says you don't post enough. So we're not – we've shown the, you know, whatever, 50, 75 people that we're going to show this photo to. Otherwise, people can come to it and we'll see you know trickle in or whatever but like i mean heck we even see that when we're producing stuff or keeping stuff ourselves where it's like okay you know it took me what you know eight years a decade to breed uh kendoia biburnia australis right solomon island tree bows and uh that got 200 215 230 likes 230 likes, whatever it is. And it's like, well, I'm really glad that, but particularly if it's a thing that you made, literally you're in that place.

You're halfway around the world or you're a third of the world away or whatever it is, and you've spent six months thinking about this moment. The joy that you get in celebration with those folks is there's really nothing else like it, you know, and it's not going to be replicated even by yourself. You can have that joy for yourself, but it's not the same thing as Justin Flynn's first will or die, you know, seeing that prize sign, whatever the, the pyros with dust, whatever it is like, man, that, that joy. And as much as the Zenata, right. It's like, I should have flipped the log in all honesty, it doesn't diminish my experience that you found it. You know,

the part that I'm glad is that you flipped it so that we saw it, you know, and that doesn't diminish the experience of the trip. And that's the thing with, to me about going on group trips is, you know, beyond the practicalities and all the split and caught, you didn't mention splitting costs, right. If you're going to stay at places, you know, have access, a car, all these things, you know, that helps for sure. But to me, it really is about sort of the joy in that moment. It can be harder in certain ways if we're not finding the thing.

You do have the capacity to say, oh, maybe we're doing the wrong thing. But if we're all sitting there having the same thought, we're doing the right thing and we're not're all sitting there having the same thought, we're doing the right thing and we're not finding something, yeah, there's a downside. But, man, the joy in success outweighs all of that from my perspective. Sure, you know, if it's a local trip, you know, I'm unfortunate. I'm like you two where there's not 10 or 15 minutes away, beautiful Herpe. Maybe I can flip something, you know, or whatever, but I don't have access to that.

But, man, we go on a trip that I've thought about for six months. I don't even know what I would tell myself, you know, 25 years, you know, 20 years in the past, 20 years earlier, that it's like you're going to be in Kakadu, and Keith McPeak is going to be holding you steady, taking pictures of an Opelli python, and then you guys are going to go, and you're going to be holding you steady, taking pictures of an O. and Pelly python, and then you guys are going to go, and you're going to say nothing. You take literally 600 pictures. You're going to say nothing. Then you're going to go around the corner,

and you guys are going to be jumping up and down, embracing this sort of stuff. Then the thought runs through your mind like, oh, this is where we saw a northern brown snake two nights ago. Maybe jumping in this leaf litter isn't a great idea. But the joy of that is what makes it all worthwhile, man. You know, if it's just you doing your own thing, you're sure you're collecting life lists, you're doing your thing, but the joy of the group and ideally all like each other or whatever, but even if you don't, you know, if you're,

if you're in that moment of celebration, someone who's maybe been giving you a hard time or you're kind of wore out or what, it doesn't matter. The moment of that is so fantastic. There's those high fives after finally finding your target. Yeah. Yeah. All that time you put in.

The yelling and the jumping around and the high fives and yeah if you do that by yourself you you just look like a psychopath but you know sometimes that happens if you find something good that's good too that's good too but you know just the cumulative experience of i think that's the stuff that i'll remember you know in terms of things that have come by myself versus, you know, things. And there's plenty of things that are in that box, you know, plenty of things we found together and things where it's like, man. Or even you come to a place, right, and there are people that you've connected with over time and you meet up with them and maybe only see them for this tiny portion of the trip or whatever. Or even you go see a place with them and then they're not there. The first time in Arizona with Dustin, right? We went to a place with him, but then he had an obligation, then he didn't go. And we kept going and kept going because it wasn't working,

but it eventually did, you know, and it's like that both the joy in our individual experience and hey, the joy of, you know, making new friends and having this great this common bond i just think that's so valuable and so uh exhilarating right and it creates some great stories that you and that group of friends can talk about for forever you know so yeah the recounting is often you know reliving the moment and and bringing that excitement back and the smiles start, you know, all that kind of good stuff. When you're telling stories about your solo trips and the things you find, it almost seems like you're just bragging or, you know, looking for attention rather than regaling your friends with a common story. So, yeah, that's something to think about too. I guess I'd, I'd probably finish off with, uh, you know, herping by yourself. Um, you can

spend as much or as little time with an animal. You can, you know, veer off to, to pursue a, and maybe an unshared interest, like a bird that you're looking at, you know, your friends are gonna be like, okay, we're leaving. You can stare at that stupid bird all you want, but we're going, you know, we're leaving you behind. So, um, or, you know, pulling over the car because there's some rare hawk in the tree or something, you know, you want to see it and your friends are like, are you done yet? You know, so you don't have that pressure. You can do whatever you want. You can give up or go home early or stay longer or whatever, you know, there's nothing

really pulling you or, or pushing you in any direction. You can kind of make, make up whatever decision you want to make and enjoy whatever you want to enjoy. So there, there are definitely benefits on both sides and, and I would encourage everybody to do both, you know, find a good group of herpers and, and, uh, and get out there on your own and explore, especially close to home, uh, where it's not necessarily easy for everybody to come, or there's not, you know, some huge target you want to find in your area, you know, but get to know your own backyard and find those cool, rare things around your area.

I had a friend visit from, I think they lived in Iowa and they came out for a bit. They were in Utah and they said, Hey, we want to, we want to do some herping, you know, where can we go? And said, well, come up here. I, you know. I know a couple of spots in the canyons nearby my house. And so we went up there, we found a gray basin rattlesnake, a gopher snake. And then they were driving home and they just pulled off in the canyon and found a night snake. I didn't even realize there were night snakes in that canyon, you know, and they found one. And I'm like, whoa, that's kind of cool. It's like almost the, the Northern extent of their range in Utah. And I'm like, that's a pretty big fine. I wish I would have gone with them, you know, and, uh, taking a look at that night snake. But

so yeah, it's kind of, kind of cool to, to be able to share things and also learn, learn things when, when people are, you know, sometimes you, you overlook the things closest to you. I think I've probably put more hours in, in Australia than I have in, in, uh, you know, close by areas like Colorado. I don't think I've done much herping at all in Colorado other than, you know, maybe a prairie rattlesnake and a couple other little things, but you you know, sometimes it's easier to plan a big glorious trip rather than just do a quick one or two day trip in your own area. There can be some really cool things. You know, there's a spot I've been meaning to get to for the last few years and just haven't made it out by Flaming Gorge, kind of in the Utah, Wyoming border, there's a nice, uh, con color, uh, spot there, um,

where they're pretty commonly found and I keep meaning to get out there and I just never make it happen. So, you know, um, it's a lot easier. We'll have to do it back when you and I met, um, you know, that same year I'd gone out there, um, to no effect, but effect. But, yeah, coming up on 20 years ago. Yeah. It's almost like a middle meeting ground for us, too. It's not too far.

For both of us, probably. Yeah, doable. Equidistant, yeah. Within just a long weekend or something, we could make it happen. So, yeah. And sometimes it does help to have that, what do you call it,er pressure or, you know, somebody else that's interested in it makes it easier to go to the spot. So, yeah, just like this. Hey, you're seeing it in action right here, people. Well, I think that was a good discussion. Some nice points being made and some, I don't know, now I'm just excited to get out herping.

I'm itching to get back out. Living in West Texas is great, except for the fact that, you know, for five months out of the year, the herps are non-existent. And so come February, like we are right now, I'm really itching for temperatures to warm up and then start happening. Exactly. Yeah. Yep. That's I guess that's the nice thing about herping Australia, but the cost and the distance and the time and everything it takes to get out there is another story. So, yeah, I need to need to make more trips down to South America or something, you know, somewhere that's a little, little more affordable and closer and where it's not winter and under snow.

So, all right. Well, hopefully, uh, you guys got something out of this discussion and you're excited to get out herping as well. Um, I was listening to, uh, a new THP podcast. Did you, did you hear that one? The flipping tin podcast? Uh, not yet, but it's, uh, it's on my list on the list. Yeah. I listened to part of it today. It's Jake and I don't remember who the second person, Tyler. Okay. So yeah, that's another field herping podcast, I guess. So I'll be curious to hear who they're going to bring. Oh, one more thing I forgot about

herping solo. You don't have a British man criticizing your music the whole time. You don't have to. The absence of German techno? Exactly. No muzzing. That's a definite benefit of herping by yourself. Absence of muzzing.

Fair enough. I don't know. I really, so usually at the end of the show, we just kind of talk about cool things we've seen in the herpetoculture world. I really enjoyed Luke of Beaches Scaly Beasts and the Australian Herping Podcast. His series of his visit to South Australia with Fryze. Is that how you say his name? I think so.

They were out hitting the same spots that I was hitting just a few weeks later and they saw the stuff that I miss. So, but yeah, he got some nice gill and I and a bunch of cool nepharisk geckos and sorry, gillens monitor lizards. I keep forgetting maybe everybody, but yeah, really no carpet. So, right. No, no, Monitor lizards I keep forgetting maybe everybody But yeah

Really No carpets though right No It's a hard find down there I think I was talking to him because he lives in South Australia and he's like oh you should have Hit me up when you were down here I could have taken you to all these spots

That's a whole different topic Yeah right We'll have to talk about that sometime. Um, but you know, he, he's, uh, he said, I said, Oh, have you seen any carpets out there? And he's like, yeah, I've seen a few. He worked on a mine site and so he'd be clearing them out of the way and stuff. So I'm like, any pictures? I just want to see him.

Yeah. Some of those targets are harder to achieve Than others Yeah for sure Good stuff Any cool things you guys have seen Or fun things you've Stumbled on this week

Nothing has immediately come to mind I'm sure I'm going to feel bad for forgetting something nothing has immediately come to mind. I'm sure I'm going to feel bad for forgetting something. Yeah. My buddy Steve over in South Australia is hatching out some good snakes. Oh, Matt Somerville has got some good stuff. Yeah. Southwestern carpets. Seems like he always does.

Yeah, he hit Owen Pelleyies this year, didn't he? Did he? I don't know. I saw it seemed to be going well at Giant Crat, but I haven't seen hatches. I don't know what he hasn't produced this year. He's not going to... I know, right? Yeah.

That guy's... He's a good herper and a good herpetoculturalist as well. All right. Well, thanks for coming on, Stephen. a good herper and a good herpetoculturalist as well. Alright, well, thanks for coming on, Stephen. We appreciate your insight and where can people find you and see your cool finds?

You can find me on Instagram. It's just my name, keeping it simple. I don't post a whole lot there, especially not deer herping season, because during the summer months I'm herping sunset to sunrise and sleeping during the day. But I post herps on there every once in a while. Just if you're a herper and you don't like birds, just ignore the bird post.

And it's Steven with a PH, right? Correct. Yeah. Steven Falick. So F-A-L-I-C-K. Yeah. Check him out. You post some really cool stuff and I do enjoy the birds birds i gotta admit you you had a uh really good year you broke a record or something for your county was that correct yeah i broke the uh the brewster county big record cool this year so how many species 300 387 species of birds in brewster county in the calendar year. In the calendar year. That's impressive. I think my I guess my total counts over 300. In the U.S. my

total counts around 300. So that's pretty impressive. 384 he said for just one county. 387. 387 in one year in one county. That's pretty sweet. Congratulations. Thank you. It was a lot of effort and I didn't have a lot of birds during the summer because there are things to be found. Yep. Gotta have priorities. Right. Can't let the birding, you can't become a full twitcher. You gotta sit reserved. No, I mean, I love the birds

but those banded snakes are always occupying become a full twitcher. You gotta love the birds, but those banded snakes are always occupying my mind. Yeah, hopefully I can find one someday. Come on out. We can try. There we go. Sounds good.

Alright, well, thanks for coming on and thanks everybody for listening and we'll catch you next week for another episode of reptile fight. Outro Music