Reptile Fight Club - Haranguing the Herpers w/ Kyle Hutchison

Episode Date: October 9, 2026

In this episode, Justin and Rob discussWho will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comIG https://www.instagram.com/jgjulander/Follow Rob @ https://www.instagram.com/highplainsherp/Follow MPR Network @FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQWebsite: https://mprnetwork.transistor.fm/

Welcome to Reptile Fight Club. Got another episode of Hanging the Herper tonight with Kyle Hutchison. And we're happy to have him on to talk a little bit about herping in Oklahoma area. So welcome to the podcast, Kyle. And thanks for being here. Hey, thanks for having me, man. It's really nice to meet you guys. I'm excited.

Yeah, yeah. Looking forward to hearing about Oklahoma. I don't know a ton about herping there. So it should be interesting for sure. Well, I mean, yeah, it's about all there is to do. Yeah, you got to find something good to do, right? And perping is definitely a good thing. I was tempted today to get out.

I wanted to go out looking for some phrynosoma, some Hernandez-I, the short-horned mountain-lizards, mountain short-horn lizards, getting that in the correct order there. It's kind of like the end of the season, but, you know, they're kind of out around this time as well. So, but I just, I forgot I had. had some things at work so I didn't make it out. But what do you do?

Yeah, that's the way you go. We get out when we can, though. When you get the feeling, man. That's like one of the most important things is just get out. Just go clock in, man. Yep, I should have done it. And I'm thinking, I'm kind of regretting that because, I mean, yeah, the season gets over pretty quick.

And then you're like, I should have got out more. But, yeah, this was a little bit of a slow year. Although I did do several trips. So I can't say it was too terribly slow and saw some new species this year. So that's always nice. Oh, yeah. Do you have a top? What's that?

Do you have a top, fine to the year so far? It would probably be a hognos. Yeah, Mexican hognows. I finally got a live one. Yeah. Which, yeah, it was frustrating to see three or four. I guess I got kind of the Schrodinger's hognows where I was letting my daughter drive and I saw it just before she clipped it.

So I saw it alive and then, you know, that I'm like, I don't want to count that one. Yeah. Yeah, it was good to get one that we could mess around with, watch it play dead, all that good stuff. So, yeah. In the grand scheme of themes, I'm not anything special in the herping world. You know, like it's kind of a new thing. I guess I've always focused so much on Australia and kind of neglected the backyard. That's awesome.

Yeah. It took COVID and Rob Stone to get me into herping in the U.S. more. So appreciate that, Rob. And by the way, welcome Rob as well. Our co-host is definitely here and happy to be around. I'm just listening, man. This is great. Oh, yeah, come on in, dude.

Yeah, man. Cool. Well, yeah. I don't know, anything cool going on right now with the collection of Rob or? I don't know if we talked about it. When I'd come back, I think I had alluded to it earlier. So the Puerto Rican bow was sending me. mixed signals. She seemed the, you know, the, what's the phraseology that you're never half

pregnant, right? Well, I kind of felt like she was sending me, you know, sending me mixed signals where I was like, well, half of what you're doing would fit into your normal, gravette pattern, half does not. And the answer was, I think, that she had ovulated when one ovary was fully mature, and one was not, so that I got half a litter of perfect live babies and half a litter of slugs. Really? And exactly on half of her number. She had the first couple times she had 14 and then she had 15, I think twice. And then this was seven live and eight slugs.

So exactly lining up with, you know, her number basically. And but it wasn't in Boas, right, more typically if everything were aligned the way that you might expect, you're going to see lives and maybe stillborns and then, you know, maybe some deformed baby, that sort of thing. Right. Maybe a slug or two. but to have it be half and half-pertilized ovum, I think she was missed a lot. As I said the whole time,

I was like, you're half in and you're half out, and that wound up being true. So in the same way. That's wild. Yeah, right? When we went to IHS and I came back, there were, I noticed unusual behavior, and then the lights went out.

I had the red bulb in the room, and the babies came out. The same thing happened when we came back from our Pelancio's trip, and it was like she, I saw her. and was like, hmm, okay, what's going on? But there were no babies visible.

The red light comes on half an hour later. I got little babies crawling around. I'm like, oh, okay, there's the answer to my question. Yeah. That's crazy. So I had a pretty decent size collection of snakes. And then that was my intention was to eventually breed snakes and then have very similar stories.

And I got everything to breeding age and size and got rid of it. Got rid of everything. Yeah, my interest in keeping just. kind of, it just faded away. I mean, I kept one snake that I'll keep for the rest of my life. And then that's, you know, that's what it is. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, once the herping bug kind of takes hold is.

We're not as extreme as you on that. But yeah, both of us are keeping fewer snakes now, or fewer reptiles now, than before we got really intensely into herping. And it seems like I'm also moving towards the, you know, providing them more space, you know, more, more, more kind of. And so we can see them without interacting with them. Right. More caging rather than racks, those sorts of things.

Oh, yeah. No. Yeah. That's a very enjoyable part. So I've still got a, you know, I recently sold like kind of the last of what I was keeping, but like I still have a bioactive build up there that I'm still maintaining just because I like the plants and they've been going for, you know, a little over three years now.

And just the whole process with that's really cool. It really is. But yeah, nothing really beats the, and I actually got started with like what I would call it efficiently or effectively. field herping like a lot later in life. And, you know, like I was saying, I just turned 40 or not just turned for. I can't say it anymore. But I'm 40 years old.

And I would say probably the last eight years has been like, you know, I've, you know, hurt so much. And that's just from, you know, social media connecting me with people that have been, like, been a resource, you know? And then just kind of helped with just that first couple of steps. and then once you get that, then you get the layout of the general areas and it's what you like,

then it's all about, like I was saying, like just clocking into work. The more that you put into it in those areas, you're going to find things at the most unexplainable times, most unexplainable temperatures, things that make absolutely no sense. You're going to get so excited to go out in the best conditions you have ever seen and you'll find nothing.

It's just how it happens, man. Right. And then sometimes you get that kind of, that center point, then you just have a very normal night as expected. But, yeah, It's just, you know, but it can dominate like because, you know, you especially living here, it's an hour plus anywhere.

And when like you're living a professional life and then a family life, it's really hard to like, you know, but then you try rationalize it. You know, it's like, well, I've got to make time to so I don't go insane, you know, but then it's like when do you start being just like a terrible partner at that right? Right. You know, so it's, I don't know. It's a fine balance. Just like with anything in life, you can go way too hard or you can, you know.

For sure. Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard to make a case like of. of saving money and things when you're going out and spending a bunch on gas and, you know, to go herping. Right. Right. So it's kind of a tricky thing there. And that's, that's a little bit of the reason why I slowed down a little bit this year and didn't do quite so many trips. And, you know, it's like, oh, I'm trying to, you know, justify it a little bit or trying to balance it out a little more. And this economy? Yeah. Right. Yeah, exactly. And with the gas prices the way they are. it's very difficult. We do an annual, so yesterday was my nine-year wedding anniversary.

And me and my wife, we do an annual, thanks, man. We do an annual trip out to West Texas. It's funny, the first time I went out there was, you know, in 2018, it was for a one-year anniversary, and it had nothing to do with Herping. I didn't know it was kind of like a mecca of that part of the world. She had saw it. She had saw it on a show called Gossip Girl. You know, the Prada Marfa store.

And so that's why we went out there the first time. And I actually got my life from a hobby when we went out there. I passed by that store. I was like, what is that doing out here? It's crazy. So now the tradition is that she takes a photo in front of it every year. And I'm down with it because I get to go to West Texas. It's a good spot.

Yeah. And so we just got back from that. And that was a really, really cool trip. Really awesome. Yeah, it's nice. So now more herping in there? How does your wife? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. She's a trooper, man. So she's not, uh, she's not into it per se, but she is definitely, she is a road dog. And she will, um, and you know, she's, we're so respectful of each other. And, you know, and with the trust and everything. So like, I usually do two trips a year there. And then one of them is with the dudes. And then, you know, I'll go back at the end of the season. Um, with my wife, you know. Yeah. So, yeah, but it's, it's awesome out there. Man, it's, uh, this year. It, it, it's, uh, this year. It, it, it, it, it's, it. It's, uh, this year. It, it. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It if I got a second for a story, man. But like she, um, we, we were on our last night and the conditions would talk about right, perfect. And then we're,

um, at a spot at the, it's kind of in the foothills of the Davis's, the Davis mountains. And, um, it just felt just amazing down there. And then I was talking to a friend Aaron and short.

And, um, he was like, man, they're just not very many alternative found there anymore, you know? And, um, so it's like,

well, I'm just want, I just want, I just want to see snakes. It doesn't, it's not alternative bus for me tonight, you know? And everybody,

that's why they're out there. They tell you they're not out there for that. That's why they're going. I promise you. Promise you. And so we're out there. And my wife's got the guardrail side. And we're walking and she yells at me. She's like, Kyle Snake. And I'm run over across the street. And I'm like, can you still see it? And she's, yeah, what does it look like? It's got orange bands. Oh, my God. So I round the corner. And the last thing I'm expecting to see is a copperhead. You know, but it was just this beautiful transparent of this copperhead laid out on the cut right there. She was really excited because it's literally the first snake. she's ever found in any setting ever. She's always the person with me walking up showing her like, hey, check this out. You know, we're like, you know, we're driving, cruising. But yeah, it was cool. So she spotted that. So it was the last thing we got, or we saw that trip. Oh, that's awesome.

It was awesome. But I was really expecting to see something that I want to dive over a little garrail for, you know. Yeah. It was cool, though. Nice. Yeah, I still haven't seen, you know, Copperhead out there. Yeah, well, I haven't seen, yeah, the TransPAC Coast Copperhead either. So we, yeah.

Okay. So let's take a pause and go back into, so you started herpin intensively eight or nine years ago and inspired by social media. So walk us through that a little bit, how you came into it, who kind of those early influencer, you know, influences were for you, have there been role models for you? What did that look like? Have you always liked reptiles? You know, is that something you got into later or have you always kind of been into it? Always, always, always. So yeah, I can, I can hit both of those. those real quick. Yeah, and I got a lot to say on kind of both topics, man. But like, you know, just first with the with the original love for reptiles, I mean, it's, it's a, it's a true love, man. It's like a, you know, I don't know how to explain it, but you know what I'm talking about. Oh, yeah. Most of our listeners probably do as well. Yeah, from the time I was just, you know,

to where I can, my very first memories, you know, we grew up in central Oklahoma in a place that's a town called Earlsboro, and it's a population of less than 2000. And then, you know, You know, you're out in the middle of nowhere. And so some of the, our, my earliest memories and activities was my mom driving us in back roads, me and my brother's four years older than me. And we would look for turtles. And we would look for turtles across the road. And then, you know, we would see horny toads or Texas horn lizards. And those were awesome there then.

And then I remember we were walking the train tracks that were like pretty close to the house. And there's a whole family. My cousin, one of my cousins stepped on a copperhead. And it didn't bite him, but it was my first time seeing one. I was like, that is the most amazing thing I've ever seen in my life. It's like I wanted to follow it and I wanted to like put it in. And I was like six years old at the time, yeah. Right.

And then fast forward. And it's just, you know, it's, it's never left, but it's faded over time, you know, has different points of my life and different hobbies and different interests and all that, but I always end up back to it, you know. It's just something that's always a staple. It's just a fascination. It's, you know, yeah. But when you talk about field herping, yeah, I mean, I've got several people, you know,

from this guy named Blake Malone. I don't know if you guys are knowing him or friends with him on social media or anything, but he was just somebody that I don't even know. I had commented on a local forum of like one of our local parks or something with a picture of a copperhead I had seen and he friend requests me, but he's just friends with everybody in the snake world. You know, he's just a social media guy. He'll get on there, he friends you.

But he is like, he has put in every single ounce of he, If that guy gets, he deserves everything that he gets because he has put in more work than anybody, you know, or than most, so to say. And he was just really kind, man. Like, you know, you always keep flip spots, like really close. You don't, you don't share those just because me, you and you could over hurt him, you know? And, but roads and things like that, those places are already there. I mean, you're not going to over cruise a road, you know? Right.

And so he sent me some pens and just kind of got me started and just kind of through that. I met some more of the Oklahoma guys, a friend David Garrison. He's actually, you know, one of my best friends now. And another friend named Jake Bagley. He kind of fits in that same breath. You know, these guys are like family to me now. Right. And then Aaron Short and just a bunch of other people that were just like,

we all got into a group chat that was Oklahoma centered Herpers. It's just, you know, maybe 15 of us. And then that gets whittled down, you know, because there's terrible people and everything, you know. And it's like, okay, well, we're never going to see eye to eye. So you whittle out a couple of them. And then you end up with this really core group of these people that, you know, some of us have lived on the other side of the law at one point of our life. And then, you know, in this same, now you're in the same group with, you know, people that are members of law enforcement and things, you know. And then you get to share your old experience and just be like, hey, just FYI, you know, like, you know.

Right. So we get everything out there and fully transparent. But yeah, all of those people. And so that's why I'm always taking the stance of, you know, if I reasonably know you and. if it's something I know that like if you were to collect something, all right, it would probably annoy me, but it would, but it's not anything that I know is going to be, it's going to ruin everything at the spot that I just gave you, you know?

Right. And so, I mean, take a chance every once in a while, but I pay it back forward because it's, you know, not only do I like to see these things, I appreciate them, but I like to help other people kind of feel the same thing, you know? And then why it, the pain's necessary, but not always, right? Right. You know? Yeah. Well said.

Yeah. Like if you can help somebody kind of go through it a little easier or enjoy it a little more without, you know, so much struggle. Why not? You know? Yeah. And foster that excitement. I mean, I get paying your dues and kind of putting the time in and stuff. I don't think it should just be handed to anybody because then it means less, you know.

Yeah, for sure. I think you're going to appreciate stuff a lot more if you struggle a little bit. But like, yeah, if you're to the point where it's like, oh, I don't even want to. mess with this anymore, you know, then what's... Yeah, but just, but yeah, footstep. Right, right. And it's like, and especially, you know, somebody like, you know, if they're a seasoned herper and they're, hey, we're passing through, this would really help me out,

you know? Right. That's the other thing. But then, you know, you give them the footstep and then that fascination will take it the rest of the way. So, like, for instance, he gave me a pen, Blake did, you know, to see Piggins. And then so it was well further south in the area that I was telling you guys about before we actually got on. And I actually found, so I was on my way there and I got lost, even with GPS

I got lost somehow. And I took a wrong turn and ended up in this awesome area and started seeing DORs. And then so, and at this time, I didn't have really hardly anything but a copperhead and then just a bunch of, you know, kind of leaf litter species of snakes and then rat snakes and things like that. And then so I hadn't really like checked off things like cotton mouse and rattlesnakes. And so I'm driving through this area than noting the dead snakes I'm seeing And around this corner And I see this, what I feel is a bull snake

And you know, four and a half foot snake in the road And as I get closer, it's my life for Western Diamondback. I'm like, oh my God, it's amazing. I get out of the car, then I take a million photos of it And it goes, and then I post it in one of the groups And then it's come to find out It's a really, really rare finding that area. Like they're just not there anymore.

Right. And so I put well over a thousand hours on that road since. Just, I mean, I taught my son to drive on that road. you know yeah and it's entirety and i've never i've never seen a glimpse of a western nine back since but you know a thousand pigmy rattlesnakes and then a bunch of other things so yeah right there's a lot a lot of people to thank and a lot of people to pay it forward for just even um helping you know just a helping hand yeah yeah and i i think that that adds to it so much when you have kind of that group or friends that you can just go out with you feel comfortable with you work

well together, you hurt well together, you know. Yeah, and you decently trust because at that time, you know, we didn't really know each other, but then you kind of throw things back and forth. And then I met the guy, you know, and then we spent some time. And then you start to really, then you can start to really share, you know, and then. So, I mean, it's always nice to pay for like, hey, check out this new slot I found. You know, you might not have been over here before. It's very rare, but like, you know, those guys have been everywhere.

But, yeah. Yeah. Oklahoma's incredible, though. It really is. Very cool. Have you never herped it, Rob? I have not. I don't know that I've even ever been in the state.

And it's not all that far for me. And as you know, I'm thinking about it. So, yeah. Yeah. Which part of the state are you in? I'm in northeast. Northeast. Yeah, I'm in Tulsa.

And so, like, it's, you know, like you get, I'm in an area that you kind of refer to as green country. And then you get west of us, you know, kind of more towards Oklahoma City. And then that's when you start to get in, like, the planes. And then that red. and the clay and all that. But, you know, out by me, you have, you know, just within an hour, hour and a half, you can be in the Ozarks. And then south of that, you got the Washa Tals. I mean, there's just eastern Oklahoma. There's just incredibly diverse places to hurt. They really are.

You know, and then if, yeah. So, yeah, but, you know, West Texas, that, that was a fun trip that we just got back from. And then we talk about fines. Like, so the Cuculata, the Tantillo that I found. That's the first lifer I found. This year. I barely got to herp this year. Just been so busy. So that was definitely an exhilarating fine with it. That's a cool. Yeah. There was a dead one on the road. And that's the closest we've come in a Gilada. So what, yeah, so where have you been herping so far? Kind of is the next question.

Yeah. So herping so far, I mean, really, I've, I've been anywhere in Oklahoma, pretty much everywhere in Oklahoma. I still need to get down to an area that it's not a secret. It's a place called Red Sloe or Red Slew in southeastern Oklahoma, but it's where that area, like kind of that same habitat you're going to find in Mississippi, kind of bleeds up into the corner, Oklahoma. So you can get gators and mud snakes and a bunch of different like lifers that you wouldn't really think that you could get in Oklahoma. But yeah, so, I mean, I've herped all over the state.

Texas, you know, from here to west, kind of that big bend area of West Texas up through the Flint Hills of Kansas. up through the Flint Hills of Kansas, you know, through Missouri, haven't really spent much time into Arkansas. And then, you know, very little time in the southeast, you know, like if we've gone to Florida several times on family vacations and then just try to make a night or two to like road cruise at like dusk. And got a life for corn snake, you know, when you've grown up with them and they got this,

you know, and just a beautiful, like, you know, it was just an awesome snake. So, yeah, that's how to toss this in there just because you'll laugh about sure so i've seen and hiked multiple eastern diamondbacks seen and hiked multiple uh coral snakes have uh seen and hiked a southern hognose snake have uh found a pine snake in florida and i've never seen a line live corn snake or yellow rat snake really you got one up on me man sounds like you could just hit a couple of days and you get there but that's a nice little list there man Yeah, I was hoping. So I was really hoping to see an eastern diving back when I was out there.

And that's kind of, I had just looked on eye naturalists and kind of plotted out some, you know, a little conditions were good. But yeah, I found one, that was the only snake I found. And it was on my way to get to the road. It was like right in front of a house. You know, it's like that's what happens in herping. You know, like, again, conditions were great. I found some awesome habitat, saw nothing, except in front of somebody's house. Right.

Yeah. That's about right. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard when you find it in front of the house. You're not sure if you want to stop and, you know, you're messing with it in somebody's yard. You're like, yeah, people might not take shining to that, you know. Yeah, no, especially in unfamiliar places. Yeah, you always just got to keep your wits about you, you know.

Yeah, I think my life for shingleback skink was in front of, in somebody's yard. Yeah. And I was okay with walking in their yard. Whatever happens. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'll deal with the consequences. I'm going to see this lizard.

Definitely had snakes and things like that. But yeah, I mean, so again, like I was saying, like starting later. And then especially now, like, again, we did the family, or I've been doing the family thing. And then so when my son was in high school, he was in show choir. And that consumed a lot of time, man. And so like we were going all, you know, neighboring states for their competitions. Broken Arrow is a really big school. And then they put a lot of money into these programs.

And so it was a busy few years. and then so now we're empty nested me and my wife like again when we talk about the Costa Rica's of the world and places like that that's kind of the next steps for that I would like to you know go hurt but I'm always going to do my annual West Texas and then annual spring in eastern Oklahoma looking for mox snakes and stuff like that but when we talk about the desires yeah Costa Rica is definitely probably the top cool yeah um Costa rica is is is is fun it's the only thing I didn't really like about that is you had to pay like per person for guides like yeah you didn't just hire a guide you had to pay like $50 for you and then $50 for

everybody else that was in your group and so it was a little little weird that way but you know once you get past that or plan for that you know I mean you could drive around and find stuff but to get into certain preserves and things you have to have a guide with you sure it's kind crazy. I mean, like, some of the national parks aren't that way, but a lot of them can. This is a natural prompt into a question that we've been talking about, not necessarily on the list. So you can think about it if you need to, Kyle, is have you paid someone to guide you in a given area, right? So when you've gone to different places, you've talked a lot about, you know, folks giving you spots or taking them out or whatever. Do you think it would change the nature of the thing for you, relative to.

finding something if so someone takes you that's one thing if you were paying them to do so is that another for you yes i mean it's i don't in my humble opinion well first off no i've never paid um anybody but again we're we're talking here in the united states you know and i think abroad i'd be much more okay with it you know and um it would not it would not change um for me personally at all um finding that contingent on you know it not being some of the stories that i've heard about some of these snakes and things like that and these guides and especially in places like Uganda and stuff like that that it's like you know these people are these have these snakes are basically pets and they're going and putting them underneath the bush and be there we go I mean

that's obviously something that would never sit well with me right so but if somebody is putting in some work and then they're just you know the expert of the area and you know I'm paying for that guy you know for his his next week or so to live then absolutely I'll do that every time and I'll take it the exact same way. Right. I went into this little preserve and it was kind of in the middle of a town in Costa Rica and they had like a little pond where they had these rare, some sort of little water shorebird or whatever, you know, and then they had cool reptiles. There was like a green basilisk male like basking on a log by this pond, you know, some kingfishers flying in and diving and stuff. It was really a cool little spot. And I said, well, you know, are there any, has anybody seen any snakes today or, you know,

that kind of thing. And, and the guy's like, oh, yeah, go down this trail. And then when you get to the police tape, that's where you, you know, it's in the, like, they'd roped it off with police tape. And it was just sitting in the middle, you know, just an ambush. But it had been there for a couple days, you know, and they just put, put police tape around it. So people wouldn't, it was, uh, no, it was a hog, or a, is the hog nose viper, the, uh, turt, or whatever, turkle, or whatever. Turcelsilio. I can't remember the name of it, but yeah.

Oh, Terseo. Yeah. Hello. Tersepello. Yeah. That's the one. Yeah. Thank you.

Like I said, I'm, yeah. That seems more mobile than what I was expecting. Every time I've heard this, I've imagined a little kind of, you know, like an eyelish. Or something that would actually sit. The idea that you'd have a, what I would consider to be more like a, you know, colubrid type venomous snake that would sit in that area, surprising. I mean, it was.

it was pretty big kind of heavy-bodied kind of like a crowed or something but yeah it was just and and i don't know like a couple days maybe it moved on who knows you know yeah i've heard those are really really springing too right right yeah yeah yeah but i mean something like that i would absolutely you know if i was looking at a life list i would count it but if i was talking about it i would absolutely add context like hey you know it had literally had police tape around it you know right it's like i got to see it you know yeah yeah exactly something natural yeah yeah well and And the same thing, like we went to the cloud forest or, you know, one of those, uh, more, you know, like you pay entrance and you go into the park or whatever and they have trails that you walk around

on or whatever. And, uh, yeah, I asked one of the groundskeepers. I'm like, oh, have you seen any, you know, snakes recently? And he's like, oh, follow me. And he took me to this tree that was just outside the visitor center. And he pointed out, and I'm like, yeah, right there. And I'm like, there was an eyelash viper in this tree, you know. That's awesome. Yeah, a little bit high up. It wasn't the best look at it, but that was the only eyelash viper we saw on the trip. So, yeah, what it looked like? It was one of the green and kind of reddish, you know, the green and red ones. The Christmas ones.

Yeah, yeah. My daughter was, my favorite, yeah. Yeah, my daughter was there teaching English and she went on a hike on that same hike and saw one of the, you know, bright yellow ones. So, you know, a little jealous of that. Yeah, they're a lovely species, man. They really are. So, I mean, I.

variable, yeah. I don't know that I'm counting it. Maybe we can kind of dive into this a little bit, what you count or what you're looking at it. Do you keep a lifelisk? Not in a formal sense. I mean, I pretty much will voucher everything with it. Like, it's either my cell or my camera. But yeah, not formally. Do you, like, enter them into database, like Herp finder or anything like that? Just kind of keep. Yeah, just kind of the Noggin, man. Right. You know, so it's very loose. You know, I mean, it's, again, I just like seeing things, you know, I just like seeing instincts general, but like, you know, seeing something for the first time is always awesome.

Yeah. You know, and some experiences are better than others. You know, some of them that's that perfect scenario and some of them you find, you know, with police tape around it. You know, I mean, it's just how it is. We take what we can get, man. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's great to experience it in the wild no matter if the groundskeeper shows you in a tree or, I'd rather.

I'd rather find it myself, you know, and I'd kind of prefer to count it a little weightier if I find it myself. So, yeah, I mean, just my humble opinion on that. Like, again, if you want to put an asterisk on it yourself, I mean, then sure. But it's not ideal. But at the same time, I mean, it's a point in right direction. And then it was your knowledge that, like, even gave you the wherewithal to say, hey, maybe ask the local guy real quick if he knows how to find these things.

what's different from that from saying yeah if you take a flashlight usually around here around 9 p.m. you might find something and you go over there and you find it at the exact same time in the exact same spot that that exact same guy told you to come look for it. No, no, not really different. I mean, there's a couple different ways to look for it. It probably wouldn't feel the most self-satisfying, but at the same time I'd still be stoked to see an islandish viper. Right. Yeah.

Yeah, I didn't want to go home without seeing one. So that was cool to see one in a lot. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, Kyle, with all that West Texas stuff, so Justin and I have both been three times, have not seen an alterna. I haven't seen a sub hoc. Justin's now seen a couple.

I haven't seen a hog nose out there. Justin's seen one, although we did get the Mexican hog knows for me to complete the set. But what? In Arizona, yeah. In New Mexico. What are the big highlights of your West Texas over the last almost decade now? Dude, I've been nice. So I found half one.

Okay. And then again, we talk about what do we count, right? I'll tell that story in a second. I've been on some pretty insane kind of like group trips down there to where if you count group funds, then it's like there's some snakes that there's just no way on earth that I would ever count. But I get to hold this and look at it and take a couple photos of, but I don't post it as my own or anything like that. And it's not, but even that's not important to me. It's, you know, again, I like to see other people succeed and be happy. and there's some extremely jaded people in the herping community,

especially in the Texas. They're extremely protective of these very public ways that people are paying some pretty good money to go. No, I get it. You know, in your backyard of people are coming in trash and doing some very questionable things. But these people will try to dictate on when you can tell people about things and all that. And it's like, well, one, I don't know you. And then two, you're not a parent or anything like that. and people get punched in the face for things like this.

Sorry about that. It's like, no, I mean, seriously, though, it's, you know, it's, it's everybody is really kind. And then when you meet people in person, they're awesome. I've never had any crosswords with anybody. And then you just, I don't know, people turn into something different when they're online. But, you know, and, but no, just talking about gray bands in general, though, it's, I've been there for some, a lot of trips to where there was a lot of Greyman Kingsnakes found. The one trip that I personally can, I can kind of count this and kind of, I'll tell you why,

that I kind of rationalize this this way, but my friend Jake, I was telling you about, we were all at the Davis Mountains, and we were going to, there was a pretty large group of us, like four or five people, and we were going to go and kind of split up on a couple of different cuts. And then, so I was like, well, hop in my car and I'll take you to a spot that I heard last time I was here, it was pretty cool. It's up here at the top of the mountain. And we go up there and we get out of the car. And, you know, I just got there. You know, I didn't even get out of my car, you know, when I got to West Texas, I would just, drove all the way from Tulsa, just pulled up, picked him up, getting a car.

You know, we're going to this very specific spot in the Davis Mountains. We get there. We get out of the car. We're talking. I'm showing him the rocks within two or three minutes. I see this mouse run up the rock. He's on my shoulder, like, you know, just a foot away. I follow that and he starts screaming.

It's four feet in front of our face. That's awesome. So, yeah, it was a male. It wasn't the most attractive snake, but it's definitely an awesome finder. mean. So, yeah, that turned out to be the most insane, probably two-hour stretch or one of the most insane two-hour stretch that I've had out there. Like, that was, you know, right around 10.30 at night. And the humidity shot way up. And there wasn't really anything indicating that there was any heavy rain there on radar. But you could tell that it had obviously ran there. So it's nice and wet. And, man, once it got really humid, you know, we found Altona. And then within 15 minutes, you know, we found it a lepetus. And then another. Lepidus and then another Lepidus and then another Lepidus. Wow.

I mean, just four, just back to back and back to back. Then we found three or Nautus or how have you pronounced, the Eastern Blacktails and some night snakes. It was just a crazy and you don't, West Texas really isn't voluminous when it comes to it can be. But, you know, there's been trips to where I've had three or four day trips out there and I've seen one or two snakes total, you know? Yeah.

But like you talk about the hog noses. Every time I've targeted them, I've never found. one. The only time I found them, like my lifer came, I was driving down 90. You're probably going 90 miles per hour to Sanderson from the Fort Davis, or not Fort Davis, but the Marfa area. And I crossed what I thought was a Western diamond back in the other lane. It was a big snake. Subjecture, or, yeah, but I turned around and the way it was moving. I was like, oh, my God, it's a hog, and I was 24 inches. That was a big. Wow, that's huge for it. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. So, nice. Yeah, it's a very bad story.

That's a great story. I absolutely count that. So certainly within my, there you go. No half count for me. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. What do you make of herp and cuts?

I hate it. Yeah. Okay. Cool. No, it's appreciating, man. You know, from what I, but, you know, from the very respected people I know that, that herp that area very well and very efficiently. And then these are very, you know,

loyal and trustworthy people. Guys like Aaron Short, there's some of things in areas that, you know, he's one of like my really great friends, and he just will not tell me where a snake came from, no matter how hard I try. Wow. So, you know,

they're very respectful in that regard, man. But like, I hate to do this, but what are we talking about? I trailed off. What was the question? Just herping cuts. Yeah. Okay, herping cuts.

Sorry. I did have a point with that because that's all he's going to do is height cuts and he finds alternate out. but he will stay on the same cut for the entire night until 5 a.m. He's not moving. He's walking back because he knows how the snakes move. You can be walking and then the next pass is just as good as the one that you were just on.

Right. You know, those snakes come. I've watched a five foot of subot come out of the ground, you know, and it started with about three inches of its head. So, I mean, but, you know, again, 40 years old, I'd much rather just sit in a car with the windows down, talking to people just like this, you know, keeping our eyes on the road. even if the legality of that method's not um yeah you can't it's not and you can't road cruise up there yeah yeah yeah but i'm never going to not stop for a snake i'll take it whatever yeah yeah so yeah that's i i kind of feel the same way and i you know i've heard kind of um um differing opinions on that you know we had um i i'm so bad with names you

rod will have to help me out but um we had a uh guess that was talking about about herping private land and was it was it austin yeah yeah yeah as part of his is his job and you know in some way i guess and and and finding you know alterna off you know just in the rocks and stuff on the hillsides and things like that and then you know other people like oh i've i've tried a lot on private land i've never found one but i've found plenty on cuts you know like i guess cuts cuts are just kind of like a pause in the snake you know, they're moving through the landscape and they have to traverse or make some, you know, effort to go up this cut.

So it just slows them down for you to spot them. And then there's, it's kind of bare, you know, other than some, you know, bushes and shrubs. So you just have the time to see them. So it's kind of a necessary evil out there. Plus all the lands private. So you're kind of restricted into the roads anyway. Yeah. I don't know.

It is what it is. But I'd prefer to her Arizona where you can go hike and you've posted. public lands and things like that. Yeah, see, I still need to cross that one off too, but West Texas specifically, it's not, it's not all these areas are created equal and it's not hiking, some of it can be really enjoyable, you know, and it's like, I like to, when I take trips out there, you know, I usually go for four days, three or four days, sometimes five, and I'll at least want to spend a night or two road cruising or on cuts, but there is merit to, you know, when somebody sees a snake out there, like a lot of times, especially if it's a female snake, there's going to be a

mail the next night usually. Well, a lot of times snakes are caught like that. I didn't know that story I told you about the one that we found. I didn't know that somebody had found one there the night before. I just wasn't in a no, and it was something I don't even know if it was publicly had told at the time. But we just, you know, it was a spot that I really wanted to go back to. It was 1030 at night and then there was nobody on it. So, I mean, it's stuff like that. But, you know, it's, yeah, you're right about that. But it's also, you know, you're getting a glimpse into what is going on under the earth there. And then there's some spots at some of the cuts you'll look at and then like there's a

spot right outside of Sanderson. And you look down and you can see and it looks like a cave, you know, or like a tomb or something. And then you're just like, I just picture that and then just snakes just cruising through it a lot. And I think the difference between somebody that goes out there 20 times and never sees one and somebody goes out there 20 times and finds one every trip is just timing, just simple timing.

Yeah. Luck and timing. It is, man. Putting in the effort, putting in the miles and just hoping you get lucky and happen upon it right as it's crawling out or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And then you do got to put yourself in a good position to get lucky. I mean, again, you follow the rain and whatever methods that, you know, you listen to people and then kind of just, you know, know,

what snakes generally like to move in, you know, it's going to be like nice and humid. And then there's just a lot of different things. You can tell it. So you say it feels snaky outside. I mean, that's not just like just some things people say, you know, it's just the humidity. he's nice and up and it's a little unstable out there especially if you got some storms like what we had on river road was amazing. You guys familiar with that area? Between yeah, between, yeah, Tijuana, Lajitas and all of that down there. Oh yeah, I love it, especially late in the season, man.

So it storm formed like kind of on the, what would that be, like the kind of the Trilingua side of it and was going that direction. So it was a really sharp line to where it had rained and it had not. but we were able to watch the sunset over the river and a nice kind of beautiful sun and then had this just crazy storm going behind us. And so like, yeah, I think I posted on my Instagram, so I'll send it to you guys. So it's just that right there is better than any snake that I could have found that night. Seriously. I'm not just saying that because that night sucked.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Silver linings, you know. Yeah, for sure. You got to appreciate the fines you do have because, yeah, last time, I mean, I was on River Road a couple of couple weeks ago and and it was you know not not too productive we saw a couple cool things you know but um nothing too too crazy um we saw a skunk and a fox and you know a lot of mammals and

we did see a little uh probably sonora that got away okay it was my fault so i felt really really long you know it disappeared into a grass clump like i i didn't think it had a place to go So it started crawling in there. And I'm like, oh, I'll just grab, you know, grab it. And I missed it. And then it would disappear. I'm like, oh, Carl, you know. And Jordan, my buddy was like, that's a big find.

Like, this is, you know, this is great. But then I missed it. So I was kind of felt like the heel. But, and then we found some of the reticulated geckos down there. Oh, those are so cool. They're so cool. Yeah, that was really fun to find those. So Jordan found both, though.

So I didn't find either. But, you know. Yeah. some rub us and things like that some cool scorpions but yeah it was a slow night for snakes for sure I mean um but yeah that place can come alive though man right right absolutely like when river road is like on like it's like I don't know man that's some of the most fun I've had herping like you talk about amazing like couple hour stretches the other one came from river road and I was out there with my friends, Jubil, Jesse, and my son, and my friend Tyler.

But yeah, we, as soon as we pull up, man, we went to the Big Hill, and they got out and we're hiking, and we were cruising, and about 920, 9.30 that night, I mean, the son had just set, and I pull up, and Jesse has alternative in hand. And within, I think it was about 10.30, Jubal was on the other side of the Big Hill, and he had an alternate in hand. And then 30 minutes later, one of the guys that we had, you know, I had met him, you know, the year before over at the Outbacker waist, this guy named Marlon. He's, you know, maybe in his 50s and maybe a little bit older, I don't know, but he comes pulling up and he's got a blonde sublock in his hand.

And this is all within, you know, an hour and a half. You know, it's like that, and then to close that, the best lepidus I've ever seen came from that the other end of the cut. So Jesse found that alternative. It's like a very slate, grayish, almost white and kind of gold banded leopardist. Just the most beautiful snake I've ever seen. He found those two. And then Jubil found that alternative. But yeah, and then it was an incredible night.

We got a lot of volume cruising, a bunch of rattlesnakes. And then, you know, I think some emery eye. And then you'll find some like night snakes. And then, yeah, I found a couple sonora. And I found an exceptional sonora. And then there's some that look just like they do here. Right. Just no pattern, just not a good-looking snake.

Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. That's cool. Yeah, it's always hard to predict. I mean, I laugh. My buddy Jordan, he always says, you know, a good alternanite is when you find an alterna. Like, that's when you know it's a good alternanite.

Yeah. There's not really a way to really predict. They just kind of come out when they come out. And if you find them, then you had a good alternanite. I think what everybody will consistently tell you. that like find them is just it you have to have rain it has to get wet and then you know like wherever it's rain just kind of follow the rain right and then you know and you get yourself in these positions to where you know alternative nights are going to be nights that have you know a lot of

insect activity a lot of bugs on the cuts you know just life signs of life in general and then just like you know like uh i think there was some verbiage that errant had used that i picked up there's a indicator species you know like when you see other like kind of things that kind of move different pockets of time, then you kind of know that you need to kind of maybe walk a little faster, you know, keep your eyes peeled because, yeah, but here I am talking like I've, you know, I've been, what, 20-something times and I've seen half a one, so, yeah. What's the toughest thing that you've chased and found? Like where you said, you said, okay, I'm going to go to this place to find this particular thing. To me personally would be

Northern Scarlet Snake in Oklahoma. And so, you know, there, there's a couple, spots at the very, you know, western most portion of the range that like they're pretty air quotes common when they're, they're common around this, this particular lake. But, you know, there's, there's some spots that, you know, I had found on, you know, I naturalists, you know, you find a couple of pictures or something. Then you start kind of looking for roads. And I, you know, kind of picked a road. And, well, I had picked other roads. I think I went two full summers in the beginning of the next summer before actually finding one. So we're working on three years. So that was, That was a lot of hours.

And then, you know, it was a road that I had plotted. It had come to find out it wasn't like an unknown place, but I had felt like I had found it, you know, because it wasn't given to me. But, yeah, I found my life for Northern Scarlet Snake on that. And that was probably the most rewarding find a date, just because, again, you talk about, like, just imagining what the snakes going to look like

and then finally seeing it. Talk about timing. It was almost off the road. It was like, you know, probably its nose was probably in the grass already. So, yeah, but luckily it just was just frozen when I walked up to it. So, yeah, pretty cool. That's cool. But yeah, what about you?

Anything kind of white well that just took you forever to find? Mine was last year in 2025. I wanted to see a Centrelian carpet, Python, a Bretel's carpet. And, yeah, went out with some buddies into Central Australia, and we ended up finding one. But, yeah, it was a lot of nights looking and a lot of, yeah, same. It was maybe similar to herping cuts where you're just herping creek beds looking up trees, you know, and hoping to get lucky. And one tree, my Jordan got lucky and saw someone that had climbed down just eye level. And it was amazing.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely that one, that one stuck in my head. Well, at least you don't have semis blowing by you at 90 miles per hour. Right. Well, in some areas you do. Yeah.

Out there. Yeah. Yeah, and road trains. Yeah, three trailers on one semi. So it's kind of crazy. I've been nine times. So I try to go, you know, once a year, once every other year. I did go twice a year for a couple years there, which was, which was nice, but it kind of wore out my wife a bit. So, yeah. Yeah. I bet, man. Yeah, that's kind of a dream destination. Yeah, it's great. You know, some of the African spots. But those kind of feel. more like, you know, maybe they'll happen distant dreams. But like I think, you know, kind of the South America is more of like a not so distant future type thing. Within the next

couple of years, I'd like to go down there. Yeah, that's cool. Do you speak Spanish or? I do not, but my wife is very, she's trying to learn right now. So she's going to do a lingo and stuff. Right, right. But yeah, but no, I mean, I think too, I mean, maybe this is a naive thought. that, like, I don't want to get so dependent on my cell phone, but they can do so much, you know, and then using Translate. I've used Translate at work and very professional settings, you know? And it's like, I'm sure I could communicate or learn to say Serpientes or something like that. Right. Figured out, weird guy looking for snakes, they'll give you a little bit of money.

Right. That's cool. Very cool. What are you interesting going for this coming year? Man, I need to, you already kind of mentioned it, but I'd love to go there. Arizona. I love to go to Arizona. Yeah. What would be your targets there? Man, there's too many.

Like, it's, you know, again, it just depends on where we'd go. But, like, I love rattlesnakes. And then just any rattlesnakes. And then I'd love to go to that portion to where they find the Mexican black kings and the vine snakes and, you know, all of that stuff. And then, you know, the green rats. But it's just, there's a lot of stuff that I would understand that you're most likely not going to see. But it's like, yeah, I mean, just anything. you know any of the rattlesnakes any of that stuff and just to go kind of plot around a new spot you know

like i went to the the um the redwoods the redwoods in the spring and i didn't really hurt at all but it was like i just want to go experience new places because i fell in love with that place yeah i did man i could see myself retiring out there it was just amazing yeah yeah the redwoods are amazing it's it's pretty yeah just awe-inspiring yeah i was going to say really to your question, what's the toughest thing that I've chased and found? I was going to ask Justin, because I think he'll have a better sense of it than I do. In some ways, in terms of at least having found it, there's a thing we haven't found that I put in the most work for of anything, for sure. But actually, the San Francisco Gartersnake took a lot of work.

That's a lot of work. Yeah. So that was a lot of work for sure. So maybe that's the answer, but Justin could say better than I can. no i mean yeah that's that's quite quite a i would like to try for that one too and yeah that would be neat to see that in the wild for sure i mean something that's uh you know on on kind of the brink anyway yeah to see one in the wild is fantastic there's there's a lot of things that you know are still on my list and the remain on my list and you know i've looked for in several different

trips. But, yeah, hopefully one of these days I get lucky. But what kind of, like, how large was the area where you found that garter snake? Did it have like, does it look like that species has much of a chance? Or is it like, you know, we're talking about like a couple city blocks here? So there are some, I think in terms of private, non-publicly accessible spots that they're pretty well. Because the San Francisco airport, a lot of that area that's owned by the airport that you can't publicly access is good habitat and seems to have the

relegate frogs and all those things. So it's pretty set up okay. There are like three or four well-known publicly accessible spots where you can see them. There's a spectrum across that of how your experience could look in terms of how close you can be, how many people are around, those different things. I've tried, I think all of those. places and it took a second trip and going to the far end of that to to make it come off.

But they're definitely around. It's just if you lived in San Francisco, it's not too bad to find one. They're there. But I think, so obviously there is Certalus, not in general, right? It seems like even within the same area, so there's the. stratalis and then there are the elegance forms right and elegans are a little bit more around water I think the

Certalus forms are more directly in the water so it's yeah it's interesting and I think you know it's really a matter of if you had a long lens you can see one at like the most public spot but you're going to be from 80 feet away and you're taking a long lens picture and it's kind of does this feel the same or does it not?

Yeah. So there's just a range of range of experience, but I think they're there. It's just a lot of private. It's not as bad as West Texas, but there's a lot, they're there for a private property. Yeah. Gotcha.

You don't think so, man. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of like an iconic species. When you talk about like iconic United States species, yeah, that's just fantastic. Well, and so they love fresh water right on the inside of being on the coast. And it's like, Well, that's where people love to live too.

And that's how in the mid-60s, they were already recognized as rare because it's like that's where people are developing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, feet to the fire. What would you say your top rattlesnake target would be in Arizona? Man, I don't know. My personal favorite is the Ridge Nose. Yeah.

Yeah, that's a kind of a toss-up. Yeah, I mean, it's a big, you try to find something. that's not like the, I don't know, like the, the, the clob is, yeah. And so, I mean, you, speckle rattlesnakes are out there too, right? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

More north. Okay. Yeah. And then, I mean, there's just, yeah, I mean, so, and then tiger rattlesnics. Yeah. And so, yeah, I mean, they're kind of, they're kind of funky looking just because it's just like so heavy-bodied and tiny-headed. Yeah.

But again, there's just, big tails, small heads. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're beautiful, though. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, like iconic species. though. I mean, because again, it's, I think that those kind of things kind of get forced upon you when you're early in life, you know, as like, you know, you hear about the tiger rattles snake being like the most venomous or the most, you know, and then all of these things, especially like growing up like a crocodile hunter kid, you know, and so you see all the things from back then. So a lot of the species that, you know, I'm so attached to and then like, like, like, I'm so attached to and then like, like, like, I'm so attached to and then, like, like, I'm so much, like, I'm so much, like, um, then those mangrove snakes, like the black and yellow that's just all of the things. that I can trace back to books. Right. Like when I used to look at as a kid just stare at, you know? Mm-hmm. But that's cool. Yeah, we did a trip down.

I think it was our, was it our first or second trip down there? I think it might have been the second trip, but we found seven or eight species. Well, I started in California. So I got all thanks. Yeah. There was one go for snake and other, yeah, it was the second one. Yeah, we found something like 15. snakes and one was a big sonoring gopher. Everything else was a rattle snake.

Yeah. And like seven different species. It was fantastic. Yeah. I mean, I think I started out in California, so I got a speck and a sidewinder in California. And then the seven, so it was like nine species. I had a chance for a tent, a great basin on my drive home through Utah, but I only saw a DOR. So I was like, I thought for sure I'd get the number 10 species of rattlesnake on the trip. That's still incredible, man. Yeah, yeah, nine species of rattlesnake in a trip is fantastic. I put that on my like email, I sure it works. Like a job title and right below it, like one found nine species of rattlesnake.

Right. You know? Yeah, yeah. And if you do it right, I mean, you should be able to, you know, match that or best it, you know. Well, I guess there's what, nine in in Arizona? No, there's like 19, depending on what you did. There's a bunch, though. Yeah, there's a time.

What am I thinking? Why am I thinking nine? Yeah. Oh, that's, yeah. Yeah, it may 17 to 19 depends which account and all that stuff. Right, right. Yeah. No, that's a cool place.

I mean, Kyle, at that point, right? It was, so that first trip we'd gone down there, I think, was 2020. And, um. That's a great herping here, man. Yeah. You know, so that, you know, we, uh, since then, I was just thinking about it because we've been down a couple times this year. I think I've been now six or seven times.

So that's southeast Arizona in that last, since that time, it's become a place that I, you know, a home away from home. Yeah. Kind of like get this, you know, and then I'm also like kind of craving like an area of like unfamiliarity. You know, like I want to be like a little, I want to be a little sketched out, you know, like I want to be a little unfamiliar. You know, like, you know, and it's like I want to just look through everything kind of like for that, that first time. again and then look for things to take macro photos of you know things that i wouldn't don't even know i'm looking for just like some bugs some random beetle you know or a spider or something you know and so that's kind of what i'm looking for like i have fallen in love with west texas in a way that like you know but

it's only for just like a week or two at a time i could never see myself living out there you know but i'm just i'm just craving something different now you know so that's kind of the desire and the big desire over the next year then again the other thing is just to not allow myself to get as busy as I did this year and not hurt, you know. Right. So, yeah, I let other hobbies kind of seek back in, and that's fine. You know, I've been playing, like, a lot of pool and things like that, but, like, I didn't get back out there, you know.

Absolutely. So, in general, do you prefer to cruise or hike a snake? Depends on what day you ask me, man. I mean, hiking snakes is always awesome because it's always kind of like, you kind of look, and I like it, especially when I've mentally given up. And, you know, like I'm walking and like I've already started thinking about like other things like my fantasy football team or something, you know. And then I look over and I kind of get that like kind of jerking motion. It's like, oh, there's a snake right there in front of me.

So I love that. You know, and I love hiking state. But I really love. And again, you talk about, you know, moral compass and things like that, but like flipping rocks and the ethics of it, you know. But that's like, you know, that's something that we grew up as kids doing flipping trash, flipping rocks. And then that's how we would always find snakes. And then so that's just, you know, I got back into herping. that's, you know, kind of carried over into adulthood.

That's probably my favorite just because I love milk snakes, then I love finding them. And then when you're targeting milk snakes, you'll find everything else's bycatch. So you're happy with everything. And, uh, yeah. So how do you feel about like placing, uh, you know, artificial cover or stuff like that?

Do you have board lines or anything like that? I personally don't, um, but, and I don't go access other people's, you know, there's like some tin and things like that that I know about the, like, Barnes and stuff. But like, what are you asking in the context of like the ethics behind it or do I personally like lay out artificial cover? Yeah, just curious. Like if you've done that or if that's. No, I mean, you put being so lazy and actually do it in the winter. I think I, you know, again, I mean, if as long as you're not trash in somebody's property, they're okay with it and you're not just creating an additional eyesore from somewhere. I really think if you're just trying to find like a very ethical form of herping, you know, I think kind of lay in, there's an argument to be said that, you know. get making some pever and then, but also there's other side argument that you're just littering. Right.

Yeah. You know, that's all you're doing. Yeah. It's a little controversial. And I, yeah, obviously, like, don't put board lines on, you know, national park lands or things like that. But like, you know, if there's a roadside area or something. I'm all for it. Kind of hidden or, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't see any harm in it. Right. You know, it's like, like, go ahead and start scouting some of the spots that I find, you know, under natural cover, you know, and start placing some auto. and some of because there is man i mean even if you're the only person that goes and accesses that place and you're very careful with how you put everything back you can notice you've been there you know

and it's you know again if you're if you're trying to really operate under the the motto of you know exactly how it was because i'm telling you in the beginning i was very careless and then there's a lot of things that you know i can again be self-aware of and then know that it probably wasn't the right way to hurt you know and it wasn't i was overherping just a whole bunch of fomo and just wanting to get the best-looking snake and all that. And that kind of faded away a little bit. And then to the point to where now you want to just make sure to train people that, like, hey, there's a mistake that I had personally made and I wasn't self-aware at the time that I had

until I've gone back years and years and years later and then noticed that all of the rocks kind of look ajar. It looks like somebody's kind of trash site, you know? So I think from that regard in itself, I mean, there's a very, strong argument for artificial cover if you're wanting to go if that's a method that you want or the only other thing you're going to be able to do is just hike right then hiking your your footprints you know you're making a trail that wasn't there before so then where's the line right right yeah yeah that's good point yeah and then we've kind of had this discussion whether or not like you know if if there's a

well-known spot sometimes that's a good thing because then that's where everybody goes and so they're only you know, trashing or not, you know, flipping over the rocks over and over in one small area because that's where you go to see them. And, you know, a lot of those things, it's like there's a reason they're good spots and you go back. And even if the rock's not perfectly replaced, you still might find something under there. But by the same token, it might be, you know, dried out and you're not going to find anything in the next time because somebody didn't put it back right. So there is kind of a, I mean, obviously we promote responsible herping and putting rocks back, just how you found them, try to make them better than you found them if you can.

And, you know, don't lift stuff that you can't replace, things like that, you know. Right. And if it's really embedded, you know, there's things like, you know, there's things like to where you can, if it's like on like a shelf and it's like a lot of rock on rock and then you can get it. And then there's other spots to where if you'll have rocks that are like, you can that this is a rock the way that it's positioned that this snake is using this just strictly for cover. That is it. This is spot between point A and point B.

And then you'll find other spots to where this is clearly where this snake is emerging from. And it's used an insta thermoregulate. It's using it because it's a nice humid area. So a lot of the snakes you're going to find on your flipping rocks just like awful because they're going to be deep and shed or, you know, it's always nice. Using it for a purpose. Yeah. But it's, and you're exactly right, though, because you're not, again, at the very micro sense of it, you can damage a snake.

You can damage, there have been times to where, you know, again, you flip over a rock and there'll be a little like can't tell, a little flathead snake. And then it's, you know, been smashed. And you think, like, how did that happen? But then you think that it could be just under some slightly looser soil underneath, under a leaf or something like that. And even you just barely putting the rock back down and you're really killing it.

So again, it's like, where does, like, how far do your morals have to go, right? And it's like, so when you look at it for like the greater good, like the look of the species as a whole, you're not going to overhurt something in a sense to where they're never coming back. It's just you're not going to be able to access them at that specific point. I think that's what people get so upset about. You know, and then I don't like seeing dead snakes. I don't like people killing them. But, you know, and I'm not going to rationalize, you know, poor etiquette or ethics by, you know, saying that at the end of the day, it doesn't matter, right? Because it probably really doesn't.

But at the same time, who are we as people to say that? because then where does that stop? Right. You know? So it's, I think everything, people always want that one size fits all. What's that, you know, one big brush stroke that we can say? And it's not. It's like every single topic, just like everything in life.

It has little pinnacles that's like spread from it, you know? And then there is. I don't think there is. I think that's why you guys have a pretty cool little concept here with a debate style when it comes to, you know, because there is at the end of the day. It's going to be my opinion versus yours versus yours. And what's right. wrong. And then, but again, the one thing that I do see in every hobby, and especially this one

right here, is people trying to act like they're better than other people for, you know, and then that's something that, you know, if just check the box and just be kind and be generous, man, that's it. You know, we can, we can playfully talk noise and stuff like that online and, you know, whatever, but it's, you know, at the end of the day, I've made some lifelong friends in this community and every single person I've met on the side of the road, even what I've heard these horrible things about these people. I'm like, I hear that guy. They've always just been incredibly nice. It's like, okay, that's what, there still is a little bit of faith in this. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah, there can be some interesting misunderstandings or, you know, things where people, yeah, are shown in a bad light where it's

probably a little unfair, you know. Yeah. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise, you know, that they're, but at the same time, you know, we all have limited time and and, you know, you want to herp with the people you enjoy being around and you hurt well with. So, yeah, it's tricky. Yeah, and that's, I'm glad you brought that up because that's probably what I enjoy, like, just as much as herping is like a camaraderie that comes with it, you know. Again, it's like, you know, we're so engrossed in our day to days and, you know, it's just so routine oriented that it's nice to be able to just like, you know,

have like a forum to talk to people with common interests. but then especially if those common interests go beyond just, you know, what you're there for. Because you can end up in some very awkward and weird conversations just by talking to people about snakes and then having nothing else to talk about after. Right. That's true. Yeah, that's true. Or you find out their herping style doesn't really mesh well with yours and they want to hang out at the Airbnb or, you know, and you're like, no, let's get out there and get after it. You know, I'm not here to. Hey, the game's coming on at seven, you know. Right. Exactly. kidding me we're going to the border tonight you know yeah exactly that's why i like going with rob because he he goes hard you know and it's like food what are we stopping for food for you know it's time to herb

yeah yeah no and that's another really important thing too is you talk about windows man time like like snakes moving it's like so that's something else that i've learned just over time is you know you think you have all the time in the world to set something up and take photos and do all this like fancy thing. So that's why I haven't really taken a lot of pictures as of late just because, like, if I'm finding snakes, I just want to find more snakes. You know, it's like there's not really time to like photograph something. But now if there's something exceptional, I'll stop and broke out the camera. But yeah. That's one of my favorite stories. We found a Gila monster that we'd seen a couple times, you know, me and some friends had seen the same Gila monster in the

same area, I think three or four times. And so I said, oh, I've seen this one before. I'm going to go find another one, you know. Yeah. Like, oh, yeah, sure, go ahead. And I walked around the corner and down, you know, down the streambed a bit. And there was one crawling up the slick rock. And I'm like, hey, there's one right here. They're like, yeah, sure. I'm like, no, really. And so, yeah, we got to see two, Hilo Monster. And we'd been looking, you know, all week for him. This was the last day of the trip. And we found two and, you know, one night. So that was pretty, pretty fun. But, you know, like you said. Yeah, that first one is like, you know, the old male of the hill.

right that you've seen all these times and clearly is you know he's doing good but he's on the backside of it and the other one is like the new young buck that's beautiful absolutely beautiful probably three years old three three three or four years old just coming into his prime amazing and it was like yeah to see both iterations of that was beautiful yeah that's incredible I'd love to see one man I really would that's again you're talking about iconic species those and coral snakes too that's another one that's probably very you know actually when I talk about talk about like very top of the species that yet coral snakes something I absolutely have to cross off never seen one of any of the species yeah yeah we got lucky and same kind of thing we

we had a brief rain you know and then all of a sudden everything started moving this was in uh Arizona well New Mexico just right on the border and you know all of a sudden we're seeing our life or Western Blacktail Rattlesnake coral snake um few other things that true so say yeah Yeah, hit just right. And you're just like, okay. But I haven't seen one since. I'd like to see another. I think Rob's seen, have you seen the Texas yet?

I have seen two of the three. So I hiked a big eastern coral with the group and then it did what the Sonora did on Justin, where it, you know, dove down into it. And so that was the worst case scenario. You had the same same thing Justin's talking about where you, but that was a large snake, you know, like a three foot. It looked like a king snake. Wow. And it was out cruising around. And so it was, you know, moving.

going to ducked into these bushes. And I was like, okay, I have it. It's going to be in here. And then, but it's Florida. So it, you know, was able to get down underground. So it was called out going over to see nothing. And then, yeah, so on the next trip was able to, we had cruised one. And it was funny because we're, you know, sand roads, going sand roads.

And Aspen, a buddy of ours down in southwest Utah. We had, we go through this intersection, not that there's stop signs or anything. And we go through this intersection. and I saw it, you know, maybe 50 feet down the road as we passed through that. And I was like, there's one right there. Yeah. Yeah. So to finally get the pitch, went from a need photo to having the photo and, you know, actually gets crossed off the list.

Yeah, that's fantastic, man. Really is. So did the desert coral did that part? It was a really small one, so it was hard to tell. And I actually tailed that one because it was underneath a yucca. And I was like, if I disturbed this thing, it's gone. So I'm just like, I'm just going to go for the grab. So I grabbed, I didn't know how big it was because like only the tail and kind of, I could tell it was a smaller individual, but it was tiny.

Like really small. So, yeah. Sometimes he's got to send it, man. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I don't think it was small enough. I don't know that it could have bit me, but, you know, I wasn't going to take any, you know, stupid risks. But I was like, I didn't want to let that thing get away.

and I wanted the other guys to see it too. So we grabbed it and, yeah, it ended up being fine. I did that in a wash of toss with a four-foot timber. Oh. With the coworker, yeah. I took a, it was like one of those situations where I'm at work and talk about snakes. And my buddy kept telling me, I want to go, I want to go. But I was like, let's take a day off and go.

Let's go. And so I took him up in the Washtas and we're looking for milk snakes. And then I'm on the bottom of this hillside and he's at the very top of it. And it's like a hillside that's, and then it's got this, look right at this ridge line. And we're at the, like,

we're pretty much at the top of the mountain. And he starts yelling at me. He's like, there's a big rattlesnake up here, you know, and so I'm running up there. And I look, and it was,

it was a big timber that was curled up right next to this gigantic rock. And right next to that rock was a big holder where this was obviously been overwintering and then this,

because it's really early in the spring. And I'm sitting there. I'm like, okay, hey, if you do me a favor, I'm going to keep it on the snake, I say, go to my car and grab my snake hook, you know?

And then when he started to walk off, this thing just shot down the hole. Reach down, I grabbed it, then I started to pull it out, then I thought I let go of it. And I was like, you know what? Because I could just hear my wife yelling at me. You know, because up there, I mean, there's no cell service. It's a four-foot snake. You're probably an hour and a half realistically from the hospital. Like, it could get really bad really quickly.

And it's like a photo isn't worth all that, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So just let him get it. I did the same thing as a, you know, 15. year old and we found this beautiful like Grand Canyon Rattlesnake is what I'm pretty sure it was. It was in, you know, southern Utah just right on the board. Maybe it was in northern Arizona, but we, it was beautiful, just this pink thing, you know, and I said, I asked my dad, can we take it home? And he's

like, let me go ask the park, you know, keep an eye on it. I'll go ask the park rangers. And it starts crawling there into this huge boulder. And I'm like, oh, if I, you know, if it goes under there, we're not getting it out. So I got it. Same kind of thing. I'm grabbing it. And I'm like, and then it's like fighting and kind of struggling a little bit. I'm like, I better let it go. And right as I let it go, its head came bursting out, you know, where it's. Yeah. I'm just like, that was close. But then it came out of the rock. And I'm like, oh, good, you know. And then it kind of moved along. And then my dad came back. He's like, yeah, they said it's illegal to collect. Yeah. Actually, you can not. You'll actually go to

Yeah. Yeah. So I was like, ding it. And we just kind of watched it, you know, for a while. And it was, it was a beautiful snake. I wish I had pictures of it. You know, I didn't have a, no cell phones back then. It was a, an abyssus.

Okay. Grand Canyon rattlesnake. Yeah, that's awesome, man. So like, yeah. It's funny, like, having like the cool parents, man. Like, so I remember my brother was, you know, we had, I say fortunately, but it's, you know, kind of unfortunately, too, man. But, like, we had all kinds of.

stuff growing up. And then I remember when we first moved to Tulsa, my brother and my dad were walking around this local park, Turkey Mountain, and come to find out there. It's just loaded with copperheads. It's no secret. There's news stories about it every year and all this. He comes home. My brother comes home with one. And, you know, I was like 12 years old or something. And then I just remember just being like so stoked. And then like we put it in a little 10 gallon aquarium. We already had other reptiles. And then so we had like live mice and things. We just wanted to see it kill something when we were teenagers, you know? So we threw it in there. but it ate right off the bat, so we ended up keeping it for a while.

Yeah, it was kids. And then, you know, then had that snake for a year, and then he ended up just releasing it where he'd found it. But yeah, that was kind of the first of the kind of sketchy keeping. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, same kind of thing.

We came across a midget faded rattlesnake in southern Utah, and it was, just had a button, couldn't, you know, make any noise with its rattle. And my dad let me take it home. I had that thing for five or six years. And then I found out it was illegal to, you know, you're not supposed to keep any venomous in Utah. So I was like without a permit and they don't really issue permits at least they didn't at the time. And so I found out it was legal. So I gave him away.

And I was getting married soon. And my wife was like, yeah, no venomous. Like, okay. I'll choose you over the venomous snakes. But yeah, it was a beautiful snake. But that thing never calmed down. Like it would always, like every time I came in my room, you know, I just started a and stuff.

It was a beautiful snake too. And state, you know, it did pretty well. I'm, you know, in retrospect, I was like, I'm surprised I got it to do so well because it was very small. You know, you're the young of the year or the maybe the previous year, but very small. Yeah. I mean, if they had one button, it would have been, might have been a brand new snake, you know. Right. Yeah, so, I mean, did you start out with, like, lizards or did it take mice right away?

It took mice. Yeah, I didn't, I don't believe I fed it any lizard. So, you know, maybe my memory, my memory is a little faulty at this age. But, you know, I think it was pretty much just on, like, pinky mice and stuff like that. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like, yeah, when you keep something, though, and then you try to feed it, it won't eat. Right.

Like, you know, because, I mean, I, again, like, it's, I've, you know, feel collected a few snakes. and it's I like and yeah I mean it's something I obviously um think harder about these days but um I've had a lot of problem feeders you know I've always I've never had any problems getting snakes to go though like you know that's kind of something I've been prideful of you know the snakes that have left my collection have left alive you know to other people you know that's good snakes just don't randomly die on me you know like yeah I just man the pain and I didn't realize how much of a weight that like keeping snakes that had on my shoulders until I got rid of them. Right.

I dropped the last like few boxes of snakes that I had off to friends. Because I had some kind of high-end species and like and but just driving back home, I felt weightless. I was like, oh my God, like my responsibilities, man. Like, yeah. Yeah. It does add a little bit of complexity, doesn't it? Yeah, it does.

How about like what species do you never get sick of seeing and you'll always go at target no matter or how long you've been doing this? What's your favorite thing? Western Pygmy Rattlesnakes. Yeah. I never get tired of them, man. And then, you know, there's little pockets of the sagas that are pretty close. Those are always, you know, there's kind of a, you know, a friendly debate between me and some of

my really good friends on, you know, what's better. And, you know, the Saugas, man, like, I really like them, but they just do not do the same thing that the pygmies do for me. I mean, you get them and then they're just, they've got that really vibrant orange, And which is sure, I mean, you guys are aware. I mean, if you find one, they're all going to act. They're real twitchy, you know, then just, they're just cool snakes, man. I mean, it's like a little pocket rattlesnake, you know.

Yeah. I never get tired of them. And then, you know, I do get tired of seeing copperheads just by how abundant they are. But there are species that you can take a step back, though, and just at any given time and just be like that, you can never say that they're not attractive. Yeah. They're a beautiful snake. Yeah.

Yeah. But, dude, I mean, there's been, there's nights to where you'll find 20 plus. Wow. Yeah. I mean, they are very, they, they are adaptive, man, and they are very, you know, tolerant of, you know, just changing temperatures. You know, you'll find them in the high 50s, low 60s. And, you know, the pygmy rattlesnakes, I found pygmy rattlesnakes at 3 p.m.

with it being like 100 degrees in the road, just baking in the sun. It's just crazy. They just, you know, they'll just move when they want. And they're just not really dissuaded too much by temperature. It seems like it's more like timing a lot of times. Yeah. That's cool. you would think something so small with so much surface area would, you know, bake quicker.

But similar thing, like I was road cruising out in Australia and there were these like green, you know, the green frogs, the common ones that you see in the pet stores and stuff. Out on the road, like right after the sunset, the road is still like hot to the touch. And they're all hopping across the road, like no big deal. Yeah. What is a frog doing on the blacktop? You know, it's crazy. A tree frog never the last. Yeah.

Yeah. I think I've seen pygmies at every hour of the day. Really? Like realistically, like every hour of the day. But what about you, Rob? Is there anything that kind of, kind of that same thing? Oh. Well, certainly Western odd-dose.

Yeah, I did. Love seeing those. Western milk snakes out here. Not as common as in Kansas. But yeah, they're certainly common. And yeah, everyone is spectacular. Bull snakes, Prairie rattlesnakes. Prairie rattlesnakes.

Actually, you know, the best example is the wandering garter snakes. I love seeing him. I'll pick them up. I know. He's sworn off picking them up. And everyone I see I pick up, even if they mozka, it doesn't bother me. You know, whatever. It's fine.

Yeah. Yeah. He picked up this big checkered garter snake in Arizona. And, man, that thing just squeezed all over him. He stunk. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It's, man, they have some pungent. Just, yeah. Yeah, even hand sanitizer does it. Then you just like have like vanilla poop smelling hands. Yeah. Yeah. I have found if you have sagebrush nearby, you can just rub your hands on the sagebrush.

And that kind of gets rid of it. It's kind of nice. The Utah resolution of that problem. The funny thing is, so I keep West Indian bows as well. And they, some of those will squeeze a little bit. my, the handful of herbs I have downstairs has been referred to. I should, the suggestion was that I should call my snakes, the house to shwees, is that, you know, if you really get, you get enough experience within that space, you can smell it and you know what it was that shooze on you, just by how it smells.

Oh, yeah. You know, not quite going in for the taste, but basically. Yeah, I had a falsity for a while, a long time, you know, I raised it to adulthood. And I actually gave it to a good friend of mine probably when I first started getting rid of everything. You know, I got to falsely a good spot to live. And they are as gross as advertisement. They are absolutely disgusting. And then the lone snake I kept, I've got an indigo.

And so you talk about, you know, snakes. That snake is going to get. So I have a, you know, again, you talk about me and my wife just being here. You know, I mean, my house is, it's a pretty big house. And there's done, like, I've got three bedrooms upstairs and nobody doing anything with them. So that indigo is about to get the royal treatment, you know. Nice. So, yeah, it's an eastern.

She's a little bit over, like, 14 months now, 14 months old, and a little over two feet and the net snake. I'm just getting some size on it, and then I'm going to start working on a freakishly, like, awesome conclusion. You know, what else am I going to do with that's there, man? So I want to get, like, a big natural tree stump and get some leaves and all that stuff and then just, I've got a window I can incorporate into a build. It's going to be pretty cool, man.

Cool. So that's awesome, man. Yeah. Are there any restrictions in Oklahoma? about herping like on native lands um i don't know native lands particularly no i don't think so but maybe i don't know the way that the tribal lands are like say like i'm on tribal land right now i mean it's just the way that it's all everything here is tribal land right yeah oklahoma was a big yeah native area there is a ton of and that's another thing man like i hurt very inefficiently growing

up i'd go to like local parks and then i hike and listen to leaves wrestling and stuff like that And then, but you've all of the wildlife management areas around here. And so you get a hunting license and they don't know how much it is for out of stateers, but it's worth it from about everything you're going to get access to because I got a five year for 75 bucks. And, you know, there's two or three like really large wildlife management areas within an hour of any direction from me. And you got public access. So as long as there's not, you know, like active hunting going on. So you'll run into spring turkey hunting that kind of gets annoying in mid-April.

when it's really getting good flipping, but you can strategically get out there. That's pretty good piece of mind for having that much public access. That's cool. In Oklahoma, do you need a hunting license just to be road cruising or to touch a snake or anything like that?

If you got in trouble for touching a snake in Oklahoma, you'd be the first person I'd ever heard of. I think in my entire life, I think technically you are supposed to have one, But, dude, in the spot, I told you with all the pygmies, the game warden there actually carries a shovel with him and kills snakes with it. I got sucks, dude. So, I mean, yeah.

I mean, it's, so I got a ticket from him. I didn't have my hunting license at the time. And I was, it was actually, there was a puddle. And then there was a couple of ribbon snakes that were kind of fishing in it. And I got my camera, I got a hundred millimeter on it. And I'm just sitting there at the edge of the puddle taking pictures, the friend of mine. And here he comes, hey, what are you guys doing? And you got a $50 ticket for just sitting there taking photos about the license.

But he's more of an access guy. He's not going to care what you're doing. But why are you here and are you allowed to be here? That's it. You know, then that kind of seems like the general consensus around here. Right. So if you had a license,

he wouldn't care. It's just you didn't have. Yeah. If you had a license for the access. Now, if they pull up, because they have, I've had law enforcement pull up on me whenever I have,

you know, I'm photographing a snake or something like that. But the question is always, why? you know, it's like, I'm just sitting taking pictures of snake. Why? You need to, you know, you know, you'll make me kill it? And it's like no. You know? You get a lot of that, man.

Yeah. Wanting, like, walk up on you and then be like wanting to kill the snake you photograph him. It's like you weren't saying. I saved the pigmy from a guy and he had his kid with him. He's on a four-wheeler and he said, he told me that he had to teach him early. I said, you're not killing the snake. Get away from me. Yeah. You're not welcome around here, sir. Yeah. And then I thought, I felt really good about that. And then I go off and no joke putting myself out there about

a quarter mile down the road. I ran one over. Oh, shoot. I saved one just to sacrifice one down the road. It happens. It's unfortunate. But yeah, I think we've all been there, unfortunately. There's no, yeah, if you're driving roads, there's a chance you're going to miss one. And, yeah, that's the downside of it. So I think, well, obviously I found you through Instagram.

Are you most, is that mostly where you're posting stuff that you find? Yeah. And then it's funny, man. Like it's, yeah, that's kind of exclusively. And then sometimes I'll throw things on Facebook. But like, yeah. And then so that's really the only place that I'm active on, with anything, with any kind of amphibian or reptile.

And then Facebook and then the groups and things, but I'm really not active in any of them anymore, hardly. I'll scroll and kind of look at pictures and stuff. But, yeah, Instagram mostly. When you do post, are you taking, like, phoners or real camera shots? Oh, yeah. So I'll post a little bit of both, but I would like to think that you can tell a difference. But when you look through it, you know, I've got a – so my wife is a wedding photographer, and just over the years, you know, like when she's upgraded equipment, but now are all of our equipment sold, like in the grand scheme of things.

But I've got one of the first mirrorless care. It's not a great camera, but it takes high-quality photos. It's a Canon R. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I keep the 100 millimeter on it a lot. So I've got this little, the MK diffuser. it's a custom diffuser, but it's, yeah, so that's what I use mostly.

Cool. Yeah, my brother let me borrow his RP, and it's been great, you know. Same camera pretty much. So the RP was supposed to be the consumer version, and this is supposed to be the pro, but it's really not. There's no difference in what, it kind of frustrates me. Like, the RP has the built-in focus stacking, I'm pretty sure. And my camera doesn't.

And it never came out with a firmware update to add it, and then they are no longer updating it. So it's like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I was looking at it. Right, right. I mean, it's hard to get a bad camera these days. Like, I mean, and especially with all the, you know, the software on the, on the editing side, you know, you can make any, about anything look pretty nice these days.

And then with AI and stuff, man. Right. It's like, yeah, it's like, but I think that, you know, a lot of people can tell. You know what I'm saying? And then, like, there's some photos that I'll purposely try to give it it over at the look. And then I really hope that people, you know, can understand that. You know what I'm saying? And then there's some stuff to where I just want it to be the richest kind of because people are like,

that's not what that color looks like. It's like, that's the point because you're looking at it with a different light source. That's it. You know, a lot of the photos that I really like are with very soft kind of almost LED cool lighting, you know, and then so I manually have to add a little bit of warmth to the color tones because it's just naturally the way that it's shooting. And if you should, but anyways, but yeah, I mean, that's like a lot of times,

that's why the colors and things look different than what they are. And you get accused of the bumping up the saturation too much. And it's like, it's never touched. Never touched. The only thing ever touched is a little bit of contrast, you know. Right. But yeah, but it's really the lighting effects how you're viewing the world. That's what light is, you know?

And then it's the colors in the spectrum, and then the light just makes them look different. So sunlight will make it look different than your, your lamp will make it differently different than your LED and your cage, you know. So, but yeah, that RP is a good camera, though. It really is. Yeah, I've enjoyed it. I'm almost, I was looking at buying a new one, but then I thought, ah, it's not really going to give me that much advantage over the free loaner camera from my brother. Yeah. What kind of photos do you prefer? Do you have, like, a style that you like? I'm, I'm not a very good photographer. Like, all that photography

stuff kind of goes into the other, like, I just don't understand it. So I'm almost, like a set it on, you know, auto or manual, you know, the, the, the, what is it, auto setting or whatever the and just take pictures. But I like, you know, I feel like I can frame a good shot or, you know, get down and take a nice picture, but I don't know. Have you tried using any, well, if you're not interested at all, you know what I'm saying, then that's one thing. But if it just kind of seems a little too daunting to learn, like what I would suggest is start with some of the individual auto settings. you'm saying? So try like an aperture priority or like, you know, something like that. And then or just shoot on like if you find like a shutter speed that you like or an aperture that you really like.

And then you can go to like an auto ISO where if you have a scene that's under exposed and get to have the ISO like really help you. But you can just do so much more with a raw photo. And then you know, you just dump it in the lightroom and then you can just, it's just minor updates. A couple of clicks on your exposure, you know, whatever. And then just kind of make it the style that you like. But the style I've always like is, you know, I don't know, name dropping or anything like that. I'm not friends with this guy. I just really appreciate his photography, but Daniel Wakefield is like the first person, I saw his photos and was like,

I want to take pictures of these things, you know. He already loved catching snakes, you know, and my friend Tyler Albertson. He's the bar in Oklahoma. Like, Oklahoma Wild is his Instagram name. He's the most humble guy in the world. He has imposter syndrome, all this crazy things. He'll tell you he's a phenomenal photographer. And, you know, I just, yeah, then that's, you know,

I just want to take photos like those guys. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. That's cool. Yeah, that's kind of why I got it to. Well, it was this Australia trip, right? I just had my phone. And so I'm taking phoners.

And then I'm comparing shots with my buddies with the latest and greatest mirrorless. And I'm like, okay, there is a reason that you pack all that photo gear. And yeah. Yeah. Their pictures were much better. So I'm like, yeah, okay, I'll get back into a real camera. Because I, you know, I did do Nikon for a while and, and had, you know, film cameras and all this kind of stuff, SLRs and DSLRs. But, yeah, I just kind of thought, I'm sick of carrying a camera on my neck and cell phones are getting good.

And so, oh, yeah, they'll just use. Especially, yeah, especially, like, all of the things where you can shoot raw, I mean, you can, like, shoot. And not just the software, but people are always, I was just talking to a friend about this. People are always arguing about what's better in your phone. like is it iPhone or Samsung. It's like, you know, it's, you can look at Samsung photos and clearly say it's like a superior, you know, it takes better photos. But then when you look at the camera itself, they're almost identical.

Right. What's happening after the photo's taking? It's like, but now like instead of like adding the different aperture to the photo, like in post processing like the camera's doing, like I guess the new iPhones, you can actually change the aperture on it. Right. You can actually change the shutter speed, which is huge, man. Yeah.

Yeah, I think that that's a really cool layer. And then like, but if you ever have any like just kind of like basic level questions or like anything that you need pointing, especially with that RP, like especially like lenses. Because it's very similar to the camera that I currently use. And I don't know if you have an adapter for years, but you can use a lot of the old like the old Canon lenses. Yeah. And you can just have like this big collection of these amazing lenses for like a thousand bucks or less. Yeah. Yeah.

That's true. Yeah, I'm probably going to buy a lens at some point just to, you know, I, I kind of like a longer lens so I can do some birding as well. But yeah, sorry. Yeah, birding, I don't have an advice on, but if you want just like a longer lens, like just the, the best lens for that camera is the 100 millimeter L. Yeah, yeah. It's, you can use, you can use the old one and get an adapter. That thing barely comes off my camera. Okay.

You know, portrait's anything. Right. Macros, landscapes. you can do anything with it. Yeah, that's cool. I knew I like this guy, not a bird. Yeah. So do you think lunar cycles make a difference in terms of you flying in snakes?

It depends on where you're at. I do think that they're absolutely, absolutely, man. And, you know, I think that, you know, just, again, limited experience and then again, my sample sizes aren't large enough to come to the, but in my limited experience, especially out in desert-type environments, it really affects it. Like, again, for instance, I was just out on River Road and probably the most ideal conditions I could ever imagine didn't find anything. I got scunk for probably the first time ever, but the moon was so bright. And so maybe there's correlation. Maybe there's not, but I do know from the local herpers around there and things, they say the moon absolutely will have some effect on it. Some.

Now, there's going to be snakes moving out of, you know, desperation sometimes, or they're forced from where they're at. There's all these different caveats that can make a snake move when it's not supposed to. Right. It's still probably worth going out if you're in the area. That's the most important thing. Right. Yep. Yeah.

That is rule number one. Get out. Just get out. Are you planning trips around trying to hit the moon cycle, right? If you're talking about being West Texas and then having the moon not be what you would want, maybe not, or at least not for the family trip. It's considered in the early season trip loosely, but really it becomes, you know, especially if we're, you know, assembling, you know, three or four people that have to, like, maybe take vacation. vacations and stuff. You kind of take what you can get when everybody, but it is considered.

You look at it. I mean, I do. And I'll say I would much prefer or I might temper expectations or get a little more excited on what, let my mind wander a little bit further on what I might potentially find. But yeah, I mean, it's definitely a desire, but it's never, I like, again, if I'm going out there at the full moon, it's not going to, I'm not going to not go because of it. Yeah, absolutely.

Have you witnessed bad behavior from other herpers, at least really? to your ethic and what does that look like? Oh, yeah. No, no, for sure. And then it just depends, man. Again, like when you meet somebody and then you need just first things that you have to ask yourself, like, you know, or I do at least, like what is every end of the spectrum? What is everything that could potentially happen to where my physical well-being versus, you know, like, and it's, I approach it from there.

Like if it doesn't matter if it's herping or any other thing, how would I approach this person in a situation? Would I just maybe just look the other way and then I'm never hanging out with them again? Or am I immediately saying, hey, and I think that we've kind of, there's been situations to where I've kind of had a little bit of everything happen, you know, to where I've had people like go to spots, like go back to spots that, you know, but then I've been to look myself in the mirror and then I've done that in the past, you know? And then it's things like that. But like people not putting rocks back, just straight flipping them over, you know.

And it's just, but a lot of times, and then people collecting things that they just rate shouldn't. But yeah, I mean, I've seen a little bit of it all. I haven't participated in it all. But, like, I mean, I've definitely, every year that goes by and the more and more and more maturity that I gain, you know, I'm starting to see more and more clearly, you know, kind of some of the things that even I myself used to do, yeah. But mine was just more, you know, herping the same spot too much. visiting the same area, maybe four or five times a season when it's really only meant to be herped once, that kind of thing. Right. You know, never collecting or overcollecting or anything like that.

But, yeah, I've seen bad etiquette and bad behavior and bad everything, you know, for pretending, posting other people's fines. I think that's a big one, man. I mean, it's just not even a, it's just a, you know, that person took that to tell their story, you know, and then using somebody else's composition, per se. They might not know that they're doing that, but if you're setting up a scene to what you want in a photograph and somebody comes and takes the phone and post it before you do, I think that's kind of rude, you know, stuff like that. But nothing like super extreme.

But yeah, I mean, I call it out if you see it, you know. Yeah. What do you consider, I guess, common venture if you're on a trip with friends? Like, do you anything they find kind of becomes your find or do you only count if you find it yourself? It sounds like if you're alternative find, you're counting it as half. Yeah. You know. There is different levels of excitement, though.

I don't know, man. Like, you know, again, like, if I'm, I think it's more proximity to me, and what are the chances that I was going to find out without their presence? Right. You know? And then so if we're, if I'm working one side of a hillside, you're working the other. And then in reality, if you weren't there, if I probably would have worked the entirety of it, then I'm going to count what you find probably, you know, and then again,

but if it's the very first time I've ever seen that species, I'm probably still going to count it, but I'm going to look for another one, you know? Yeah. You want that one that's strictly yours. How often do you go off on your own, like herping solo? Oh, man, I probably hurt more on my own. It's probably, I'd say, a 10 to one ratio, solo versus non. Really, I mean, there's been a ton of solo trips.

Right. I hurt solo a lot. And it's a lot of the times it's not just because that's with the desired outcome. It's just because you hit a couple people up or hit a group chat or something like, hey, anybody trying to go cruise? So I'm busy or watching Ness or doing that. It's all right. Well, I'm still going out.

Right. Right. And then there's time to where you're just not there. Yeah. Yeah. Because those times you're not there mentally too, though, that you just want to be alone. You know, the natural medicine that you're needing, you know. Right.

It's like you hope to see some snakes, but you really just want to get out there and get away from everybody. Yeah. Get away from the day to day and the craziness and insanity of being adult, you know. Nothing to be a kid again for a little bit, yeah. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Get back to your roots.

Yep. that's cool well this has been great Kyle it's been awesome man I'm sorry that I had to cancel him the first time dude like you know again that was I was so again being an aerospace man there's sometimes to where it's just like my day like as soon as I get in my car and I'm headed home my day my brain is mush so I was already a little self-conscious you know because it's like

you guys realize I'm nobody right you know and it's like yeah we're nobody too it's not like yeah I started looking through things I saw some familiar names and then I listened to the episode with Austin, you know, and I thought that you guys did a great job, you know, and then you seem like, and I think it was Hayden that said that he knew, Hayden Lewis. Is that? Yeah. Yeah.

That kid's awesome. You know, I met him through another mutual friend. You know, I love the hobbies, other hobbies, you know, and anything that we can do in commonality with that. So I started Herper's only fan of the football league. And then it led me to Hayden that, you know, and then all of the friends here. But yeah. That's cool.

Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, I've had a blast, guys. You know, like I said, I'm sorry for canceling the first time. And then it's just, you know, I really would just like to thank y'all for getting me a little bit out of my comfort zone to say, I talk to you guys and then offer just what I feel probably what there's a lot of people that have my same kind of viewpoint and story, you know, they kind of just looking for another hobby of midlife and, you know, going back to the thing that they always keep dragging back to, you know.

And it's snakes and snakes, snakes in particular, you know, like, yeah. That's cool. Well, where can people see your stuff? What's your Instagram handle? Instagram, Snake, Oklahoma. I mean, just spelled just like Oklahoma. But yeah, snake at the front of it. Real creative, right?

You know? But yeah, now and then, yeah, my name is Kyle Hutchison. It's on the thing. So, I mean, I'm sure people listen to this. Well, people I know and people. Yeah, but if you want to find me on there, there you go. Nice. Yep.

All right. Well, cool deal. Thanks again for coming on. And we'll thank Eric and Owen and the NPR crew for hosting. and we'll catch you again next time for Reptile Fight Club.