Reptile Fight Club - Has Animal Rights Organizations Shaped the Hobby in a Positive or Negative Way?

Episode Date: August 20, 2022

In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the question of Has Animal Rights Organizations Shaped the Hobby in a Positive or Negative Way?       Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comFollow Chuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsFollow MPR Network on:FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Welcome to the episode of Rabbit Tile Fight Club. I'm Dustin Julander. With me as always, Mr. Chuck Poland. Hey, hey. Well, what is going on in your world, Chuck? Work settled down. Things are good. Work settled down.

You had a couple days off. Yep, things are good. I have. I've taken a little vacation. Yeah, just my AC just crapped out on me, so I'm going to have to figure that out yeah it's hotter than hotter than satan's ass here right now so i'm sure it's real easy to find a ac at this time of year too yeah so you know even like we had to call and like leave a message not even the 24 hour

places have called us back so yeah i promise we're gonna suffer a little for this one so um but yeah i don't know what's going on the my um like my air handler unit's up in my attic and i'm getting leaking that's coming from my ceiling so yeah not good i yeah it looks like it's coming from the unit so i'm not sure exactly what's going on but now do you get the nice like uh coastal breezes and kind of that moderate uh temperatures or are you sort of where you get kind of the heat so i would i would describe where i am in in east chula vista as probably uh the middle between the coastal the coastal breeze and the coastal temps and the inland desert temps. We're probably somewhere in the middle of that.

Kind of best of both worlds, huh? Yeah, a little bit. So we're not quite like Hamul or Dilzura or any of those inlands that are kind of in over the mountains. Baking, yeah. Yeah, so they're absolutely baking out there. And it's not quite as nice, you know, like on my way into work, I go over the Coronado Bridge. And you can literally, once you get up on that bridge, you can just, if you have your windows down, you can feel the temperature drop like 10 degrees. So it's, you know, it's definitely not that same coastal breeze with the coastal cooling that you get.

But yeah, so it's hot here right now. I was driving with the kids through L.A. once, and there was traffic, of course, because there's always traffic in L.A. But we were kind of baking in the car, and I'm like, man, it's kind of warm. And I didn't really want to turn on the A.C. I'm like, let's conserve the gas. Save the AC. Yeah. And so like the old school dad, you know, and, uh, I rolled down the windows and I'm like, oh, it's really nice out there. It's like very, uh, cool breeze coming in. So yeah, I guess it goes to figure that it was a really ritzy neighborhood. I'm sure you pay a premium to live in that zone.

Were you driving through Orange County, like the beach cities? It was a little further north, but yeah. We were driving from the zoo, and then there was some high school where Teen Wolf was filmed, and the girls wanted to go check that out. So being the wonderful dad that I am, I drove my daughters all over L.A. County looking for the place where Teen Wolf was filmed and they were very geeked out and excited, but it was not, not so enjoyable for me, but I just had a day at the zoo, so it was okay. Right. Right. Trade-offs. Compromises. Exactly. Yeah. They

endured the zoo and I endured the Teen Wolf school, but that's a very father, that's a very fatherly thing of you. Yeah. But trying to get out of there was a nightmare just oh yeah just cars everywhere i'm like oh my gosh but yeah yeah i feel like i feel like anytime you pigeon your whole yourself into something like that in la you ultimately set yourself up for traffic where you're like oh we're gonna go here we're gonna go downtown or we're gonna like go to disneyland or we're gonna do like like all inevitably you set yourself up for like oh crap how do we get out of this place you know right so yeah and it seems like everybody wants to get out of there at the same time you know yes no it's like it's like oh the murphy's law of how la works yeah well. Well, I went to the, I think we went to the super show or one of the shows that was in San Diego

back in the day, it was like 98 or 97, you know? And I think that's when I picked up my first jungle carpet from Python Pete, but we were driving back from San Diego, heading towards my cousins in Rancho Santa Margarita. And, and this is before, you know, phones and all that good stuff. So we were just going off of paper maps and we got in bumper to bumper traffic, you know, somewhere just, just North of San Diego. And then all of a sudden I'm, you know, we're just kind of sitting there,

zoned out, just kind of chatting or whatever, me and my wife. And then all of a sudden I see signs saying welcome you know los angeles next five you know that kind of thing and i'm like wait how did we get to los angeles and so we're like way bypassed our exit and just missed it and then we were just kept going in bumper to bumper traffic so we were just sitting there for hours but then we bypassed it by another hour and a half, you know? So I had to turn around and go back. I'm feeling pretty real jacked up at that point. Yeah. Yeah. That was not, not fun. So I'm like, how did I miss it? Cause you know, we, yeah,

we did that drive a lot from, from, uh, Trey and Jenny, you know, you stayed there with us yeah driving from there to anaheim or la or whatever to go that's a little bit of a drive it's a little bit of a drive i mean it's an hour to la yeah good traffic you know so you're like yeah how did i do that well thankfully gas wasn't six dollars a gallon yeah right yeah we would have we would have had to live on the side of the road. I don't care, meathead. Knock it off. I swear he's using words there. Dude, they talk. Yeah, no, they do talk.

Yeah, that's Ruby. Yeah, they definitely, we have conversations. Yeah, good times. But yeah, that traffic in California, man, you guys are living there, I guess. But I guess you pay the premium to live in a nice place. Yeah, and I'm jealous of your keeping reptiles outdoor ability and your succulents, growing of succulents in your yard ability. That's pretty sweet. Yeah, definitely.

There's a lot of benefits. Definitely the plant and animal uh benefits uh and the weather benefits are there but um the traffic is you know and and you know san diego traffic is is mild in comparison to to la i just i cannot i i just cannot with la it's the, the traffic is like the worst. Yeah. It's saying, uh, it's, it's, you know, so. Wow. Yeah. That's, I guess, uh, there's pros and cons to wherever we live. We should fight about, you know, whether it's good to live in California or Utah or whatever. Well, probably not, uh, not, not along the lines of the show, but so you're, you're swimming in geckos, huh? You got, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm busy with

geckos. Yeah. I've got a, I got a figure. I got a figure. I got to figure gecko problems out. I am trying to get stuff back down to a more like, not that it's unmanageable. It's just like a lot of work. And I'm just like, Oh my gosh, I'm feeding all this stuff and I don't really need to, I need to do something here. So, um, just trying to, trying to make that happen and probably acknowledging the fact that I maybe miscalculated the market for, for giant day geckos. Um, so, you know, I like them, I like them, you know, but obviously other people, you know, it's funny too, because they're so bright, they're diurnal, you know, you'd think they'd just kind of fly off the shelves, but yeah, go figure, I guess. Yeah, it's funny. And then there's so many cool reptiles out there. I guess that's a shocking thing to kind of come to the

realization is that we limit ourselves to, you know, just a handful of species that are popular, ball pythons, boas, bearded dragons corn you know you can kind of count them on one hand all the very popular things that are just in mass numbers and you're like you know that's diversify a little people let's i was kind of thinking about that like okay well so giant day geckos what's wrong you know like okay so you can't hold them like a leopard gecko and they maybe they're not as many colors and morphs, you know, out there. But the colors they have are, you know, like mind blowing. Yeah, they're beautiful.

Yeah, absolutely. And they've got a lot of personality, you know. That kind of monoculture that, you know seem to go down and you know granted there's more resources and things for certain reptiles and maybe people are a little apprehensive of keeping something they're not there's not a ton of information about or or their friend has one or whatever you know it would probably be i would probably be doing doing having an easier life if i was doing a lot more of the micro geckos um you know yeah a lot of the the smaller ligodactyls and the smaller uh thalsuma stuff even you know i mean but whatever

you know i i i don't know i i it's crazy because all of these problems that i've really gotten myself into is really over one breeding pair of Grandis. So, I mean, like they're ridiculously prolific, which, you know, if they ever caught on in the market, it would be, you know, I mean, I could see how it could go real bad real fast with the boom and bust of the market how it is but um yeah well and but yeah ebb and flow of things like maybe you know things kind of come around again and become more popular people realize hey this exists and this is very affordable and i can get one you know and just have it as a pet and look at it and be awed by its beauty you know that kind of thing

and and you know i complain but i mean i just, I wholesaled four geckos today and it made some room that I needed and I'm, I'll move the other ones. Like, it's not a big deal. It's just, you know, no one's barn burning down my door for giant day geckos, which, you know, fair enough, you know, fair enough. So I find it interesting because I put, I, I just have like a pair, a couple pairs of, couple pairs of crested geckos in my office. And so I produce quite a few. They're pretty productive little geckos.

So I take them to the show, put them on the table for $30, $50, something like that. And I mean, there's breeders all around the show selling crested geckos for $500, $600. Whoa, there we go that's me yeah and uh and and then you know i i'm like how how are they buying these expensive ones but you know ignoring my less expensive ones even though the ones i have come from pretty colorful adults and yeah they're pretty nice but you know it is what it is and they do a much better job at marketing them than I do. And, you know, I'm not known for crested geckos, so nobody's coming looking for them.

And, you know, I, I don't really get that portion of the, of, of the hobby. You know, I mean, I, I, I guess name recognition is a thing, right? It's definitely a thing. And, and flashy marketing has, you know, I mean, I guess name recognition is a thing, right? It's definitely a thing. And flashy marketing has, you know, I mean, for goodness sake, you know, not everybody can have a belly dancer at their table. But, you know, that's a thing, by the way. It is a thing. Steve and I were just talking about that on Sunday.

It happens. We were chatting and, like, he said he saw that particular table, and I'm like, oh, did you find them by all the belly dancers? And he's like, no, he didn't have any of those this year. Yeah. Yeah, I think that might have been a one-and-done show. I don't know. I don't know. The caliber of belly dancers that he had were a little sketchy, yeah i can't see that driving business to the table

more like the other way around but hey you got to try some marketing schemes i just put yourself out there just shoot for the stars oh boy yeah you shoot well you just shoot for the top of the arc for something i guess it doesn't i don't how, I don't know what kind of velocity you're getting to get you out of orbit, but you're just shooting for the top of the arc, wherever that is, wherever that lands. You might bounce off the ceiling pretty quick, but you know, that's correct. At least you're shooting, you're, you're taking your shot. I mean, if you hit the ceiling, you're at the top of the arc somehow. Yeah, yeah. Man, I saw that reptile show a few weeks back. I saw some tortoises, and I can't get them out of my head. I don't know why.

But I guess I'm pretty sure they were Specs, hingeback tortoises, the Canixis specii. And they were really cool looking. I mean, they were imported imported and so they were cheap and they'd probably die in a couple weeks and so you know of course i'm not gonna contribute to that whole you know issue but um i found i found some you know captive bred stuff and i'm like yeah do i need to get towards the i'm, somebody talk me out of this. I feel like you could do uromastyx if you're going to do that. I know, seriously. You know?

Yep. So I don't know. I guess it's because I think I told the story of getting my daughter some tortoises. We got her some juvenile captive bred Herman's tortoises. They're fun little things, just tiny little babies. Summer? Summer, yeah. She's really excited about them and having a fun time keeping them happy and healthy and doing it all right.

So, yeah, it's really fun to see her get excited about that. So, you know, and I'm like, well, if we have these tortoises, why not get some? Oh, my gosh. That's how it starts. That's like, that's the addict. That's the addict in you rationalizing your next purchase. But I mean, there's just so many cool reptiles, you know, can you fault me? But yeah, I focus on what I have and getting, you know, them into bigger cages and stuff.

Yeah. I'm here to support you. Yeah. The talking you out of it is Heidi and stuff. Yeah. I'm here to support you. Yeah. The talking you out of it is Heidi's job. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, tortoises, they're, they're not, I'm not going to be overrun by tortoises anytime soon. You know, they're, they take their time, but, um, so it's kind of a nice lesson in not getting instant gratification. So I think hopefully that'll be a fun project for summer, but hopefully there'll be, you know, adult size before she's moved out of the house and gone, you know, that kind of thing. But we'll see. We've got plans to build like a tortoise home and stuff,

you know, that kind of thing. But is there a standing rule that they have to go with her or is this, is this like her pets become your pets? I don't know. I don't mind hanging on to them if she can't take them with her. But she's convinced that they're coming with her wherever she goes. All right. All right. That's fair. All right. I like that.

That's good. That's good. It's fun to watch and be excited about that and seeing her be responsible and keep these things well. She's out there every day making sure they're taken care of. So, yeah, it's been fun. You know, it's always fun to, you know, even if it's peripherally is, you know, my daughter's project to see new reptile species in the house. And of course I had a, it wasn't a Hermann's, it a spur-thighed tortoise, the other European species.

I can't, my brain's not functioning very well. I am not a tortoise man. I cannot bail you out. But very similar in appearance and just a different distribution in Europe, but very similar tortoises. And I had one of those as a kid that my cousin gave me and I just, that was the coolest tortoise. It was really fun. So yeah, it's kind of brings me back to childhood, about the same age as I was when I got mine, you know, seeing her and the amount of information that she has at her disposal compared to what I had, you know, at the time.

She didn't even know. She didn't even know that you couldn't say no right yeah exactly and i remember i i got the uh got the tortoise from my cousin because it got loose from you know he was nice had it out in the yard and it got it loose and so he's like you know if you can find it you can have it and i spent the whole visit you know my cousin's house looking for a tortoise you know walking all over along the creek beds and like through yards and stuff and then i think as we were getting ready to leave or something the neighbor brought it over and said i found this in my yard and he's like oh i guess you can have it you know so i took it home that day and yeah it was pretty cool so i don't know so so basically i like them so basically

dr dr julander hasn't been the expert herper uh his entire life that is more of an onset later in life at finding finding all the i like to say i like to blame it on private property you know you can't oh that's fair property for her fair. If it would have been outside private. But, I mean, tortoises blend in really well, especially these Mediterranean. They're kind of yellowy colored, and they just bloom right into the grass. Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty crazy. But, man, these things are just tiny little tortoises.

It's pretty fun. The cuteness factor of a tiny tortoise is pretty much unparalleled. Yeah. Are they in the house? Or are they outside? They're inside She'll take them out every day Give them some sun Give them a little bath

Help them Obviously they can't stay outside year round Not yet Not at that size She's just got them in an enclosure When they get older They can make the winter no problem Not outside Yeah, not at that size. So she's just got them in an enclosure in her room. When they get older, they can – Yeah, yeah.

They'll make the winter no problem there? Not outside. No, we'd bring them in in the winter. But they can be outside for a large part of the year. Part of the winter, okay. That's the plan is to keep them outside in a tortoise run and have them protected and stuff. Isn't there a tortoise guy that's out there in Utah that we met at Super Show? Yeah, he's down in Vegas area.

Oh, okay. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's who it was. He's a cool guy. Okay. So, no. So, that's definitely not the same situation at all there.

Yeah. Not in Vegas. But he was in Utah. Was he? He was a chameleon guy back then, though. Oh, okay. He switched to tortoises, I think, when he moved out in the desert and found out that keeping chameleons in the Vegas desert was a little more difficult.

That's dicey. That's dicey. It's a little cooler up in Utah than it is in Vegas. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I've just been looking at it. I mean, I've got an ad up right now looking at these tortoises. They're pretty cool.

Oh, look at you. Oh, my God. Yeah. Anyway. That's hilarious. up right now looking at these tortoises they're pretty cool oh look at you oh my god yeah oh anyway that's yeah that's hilarious that that addiction i mean reptiles are very addictive especially yeah the variety and the coolness factor so yeah i am oh i know i i um so i've got those those uh those coastal that coastal clutch and uh i and I separated my holdbacks out, and I was going to do some bloodline swaps with Eric Hernandez. Oh, cool. Yeah, he's a longtime fan of Camus,

and I heard that I had hatched that out. He's the red coastal man right he is so i'm gonna send some nice ones his way yeah so um and then um he's gonna send me send me some uh some red stuff from from uh last year this year uh so yeah interested in doing that i've got like maybe two of those of those 15 that are still holding out on me not wanting to feed so those two can fuck right off yeah i'm not i'm i'm i'm just i'm not trying to force feed them or assist feed them anymore or you know it's like they're either gonna eat or they're not gonna eat i'm not you know um i'm not gonna i dealt i dealt with a male

from that came from the the female that sired this clutch that i have to this day and it doesn't eat it does not eat like it's probably i don't know five or six years old and it looks like it's maybe two years old and it's you know just yeah it's just yeah exactly and it's barely yeah it's the most frustrating thing ever but it's like well you know what like i'll offer you food every once in a while if you're around you're around like but you know i'm not trying to breed that i'm never gonna breed that to anything because i don't i just don't want i don't want to perpetuate that kind of get get that crap out of here. I had an individual like that, and I put it in this tiny little tub to clean its cage.

It had this nice big roomy cage. And I put it in the tub, and then I went to get it out. And it hadn't eaten in like six months. And I was getting kind of worried it was going to survive, you know? So I, I go to put it back in its, in its cage and it's looking at me like it's hungry. So I get out of her mouth and I gave it to him and he ate it and I gave him another one. He ate it and gave him another one. He ate it. You know, he just kept going. And for some reason, putting him in this little cramped, you know, smaller, even though he had like hide boxes galore in his cage, putting him in that small tub triggered his feeding response somehow. So, you know, he started eating and then he was pretty solid after that.

So, yeah, I don't know. I wish this was that kind of a case. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm trying to get blackheads feeding and maybe I'm not so sad that I only got two this year because they're very frustrating and they just don't want to eat. You know, so I'm trying to, trying to get the advice from, get your hands on some snakes. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I feel like you almost need like, you know, well, I thought about that,

like taking a shed skin and like doing a little sausage just inside a shed skin and kind of wetting it down and putting a mouse inside there. Are there blackhead breeders who breed like a kind of snake just to feed to their blackheads to get them going? I don't get the sense that that's the case. It seems like they just kind of assist feed until they take rodents. So we're kind of forcing, you know, it would make make a it would probably be a smart thing to have feeder snakes you know that but then it's hard because you know we got in this because we like snakes not because we want to feed snakes to stuff so it's kind of a i get that but there's so many people talking shit about worthless you know hybrid carpets and you know and and it's like you would think that wouldn't be a problem with all the people who make mutt you know mutt mutations

and and then and then that's the same crowd that also likes blackheads you know i mean not that there's like you know what i mean like i feel like the, the blackhead Python is an Aussie kind of, you know, um, carpet carpet universe centric kind of, uh, snake. So, well, there's plenty of people that feed, you know, stillborn carpets to blackheads and that's a, that's a, of course a reasonable way to go or, or animals that, you know, are not, not thriving. Maybe you're, you know, you're picky, uh, red coastals go to a blackhead or something that you know are not not thriving maybe you're you know you're picky red coastals go to a blackhead or something you know yeah yeah yeah i mean that's that's uh kind of how that's probably a topic for another discussion you know another day but you know fair feed feeder snakes you know stuff yeah or feeding stuff what it wants to eat rather than telling it nope this is what you're getting. I mean, it just makes more sense. And, and, you know, maybe if you can, maybe if you get a strategy

to transition that thing, sure. But, but, you know, in the, in the medium time, like, man, maybe that'd be so much less, less pain that you'd have to go through. I don't know. Same thing with lizards and anteresia babies and stuff, but like, I don't know. Same thing with lizards and Antaresia babies and stuff. But like, I don't know my Antaresia are doing great. Like starting on, uh, pinkies and stuff like they took off pretty quick this year.

Some could argue that it's not as natural as, you know, giving them geckos or skinks or something. So, you know, maybe, maybe they'd be different animals if I was feeding them, you know,

more lean lizard prey. Fair. I don't know. I don't know. Well, yeah. I mean, things are moving well. The Inlands, almost all of them have taken their first meal without any fuss or anything. So that's been good. And then, yeah, the jungles are all eating except one holdout and um i actually sold a pair of jungles already and

so i was kind of kind of wanting to see how they turned out how they colored up but you know was it regular jungles or were they uh they were zebras yeah yeah got a pair of zebras so and then uh yeah things are things are going well a lot of the anteresia have started pretty easily this year which is always nice uh my my favorite uh clutch of anteresia is the ones that are being a little difficult but they they hatched out most recently so maybe that's part of it and i just need to be a little patient these are westerns or? Wheat belts, yeah. Wheat belt stems and the striped clutch that I have that's got some crazy looking stuff in it.

So we'll keep going with those feeding trials. But yeah, off to a pretty good start this year with feeding. The brettles have yet to shed. So waiting on that and excited to see what they're going to look like. Yeah. Good times. Nice. Shaping up nicely. have yet to shed so waiting on that and excited to see what they're going to look like but yeah good times nice shaping up nicely you better be better be ready to put the ads on your site and i know get busy i need to teach summer how to do it maybe that's a better route that's not it's not a bad plan yeah i'm getting overrun in my office with geckos uh from from the breeders so

i wonder if bill needs some more uh more geckos but um yeah good stuff well should we uh fight a little okay get your fight on sure sure okay we're we're talking uh like these pita type organizations pita hsus and do they have any positive impacts on the hobby or are they all negative? Like are they just hell-bent on taking away all our rights and so they're not going to stop until we can't keep reptiles anymore? Or are there some good aspects of these organizations that help shape things in a positive way? Okay, let's flip the coin and see which side you get.

Heads. It's tails. What the heck? That's two weeks in a row. I know. Shoot. Well, maybe I'll go with the pro. It's a little harder to defend, but i'll give it a shot that they that they help they help shape the and you know that help shape things in a positive way

even though their tactics may not be great okay i don't know i'm gonna i'm gonna go for the challenging side that is the challenging side in my opinion that go for the challenging side. That is the challenging side. In my opinion, that may be the challenging side. All right. Well, but I'm going to let you go first. Of course you are. Of course you are. Yeah. So, I mean, you know, I think in, you know, a lot of these groups tout themselves as animal rights organizations.

And while I think that their heart is probably in the right place, the net effect that they have probably is not one of positivity. You know, I think you can look at dogs and cats and, and some of the issues that, that PETA and, and, and HHS have kind of gotten themselves into where they're literally euthanizing animals and, and, you know, to save them from cruelty or, or abuse. And, um, you know, you know, I just, I fail, I fail to see how an animal advocacy group, you know, wins or hits the mark when, when they're, you know, when they're strat, one of their strategies is euthanasia for a population. You know, I think that there's probably, you know, better ways for them to, you know, spend their money and they're well funded. There are people who pay money to them who really care about animals. And, and unfortunately I think that a lot of that, that potential revenue gets, you know, used in ways that, um,

I think most animal lovers would probably not agree with if they were, uh, you know, on the decision end of, of the way some of these, um, organizations spend their money. And, and, you know, I think they're probably well-meaning, um, but, but I, I just don't, I, you know, I think that there's education, there's outreach and conservation that they can do, but I don't, you know, I, you know, and, and I get that conservation of, of,red dog populations probably has some euthanasia involved in it, right? And that's just bad press, right? That's not – and there's – obviously, when you talk about groups like that, there's you know, that there, there's, there's governmental

agencies that are euthanizing aggressive dogs. And, and, uh, so, so, you know, some of it just has a bad look. Um, and you know, I, I think when they get in the business of talking about animals that they poorly understand and that they really have no interest in understanding and and and frankly that they that they use the low-hanging fruit to vilify um they're not they're they're not um they're not coming to the table in a genuine or they're being disingenuous with the way they are portraying themselves. I don't think that reptiles are unreasonable pets. I think that some reptiles can be unreasonable pets for some people. I think some dogs can be unreasonable pets for some people.

My dogs are a handful, and I would not recommend my cattle dogs to everybody. But they have a loyalty and an intelligence and a drive that I really like in a dog,, they've been great for my family. Now, if you're the FedEx guy or you're my neighbors, maybe sometimes you don't feel that way. I get that. I understand that. But at the same time, you know, um, just because, sure. Just because my FedEx guy or my neighbors don't understand that just like HSUS or PETA don't understand that. It doesn't mean that they're invalid or that they don't, you know, that maybe they shouldn't be the ones who are out front pushing policy towards how we view pets. Yeah. And one of the I mean, to kind of go along with that, one of the classic examples of how PETA kind of goes wrong or these these more radical. I don't know that it was PETA, but it was more one of these radical animal rights organizations

were up here in my neck of the woods. They went to a coyote research facility and they released all the coyotes from their cages, right, as kind of a protest to say they need to be free or whatever. And all the coyotes were male, so they basically just spent all night fighting and killing each other. And so the researchers went back to a facility full of maimed and half-dead coyotes. So if you care about the animals, that was a really stupid move to show you care about the animals.

So yeah, a lot of their actions are kind of misguided now on on the other side um you know a lot of reptile businesses or or keepers kind of do things the wrong way as well and they're they're not ethical they're not keeping their animals in a responsible manner and sometimes they've done some of those like undercover things where you got your you know undercover PETA agent that goes in and works for these places and films them in secret and shows some of these despicable practices, frankly, that are, that are done, um, you know, in the name of, of liking reptiles or loving reptiles. And they're just not, their, their actions are not consistent with that. Right. And so they're, they're doing things that doing things that are unethical and uncaring towards organization out there with the potential of exposing, you know, mishandling or things in the reptile community kind of has maybe a little bit of weight. Maybe you second guess whether or not you should treat an animal the way you might be, you know, tempted to treat it or whatever. And, you

know, kind of the optics of things maybe keep you from doing stupid things with your animals. Now, I know like some industries were unregulated for the longest time. And so that a lot of practices evolved that were frankly, you know, unhumane and, and, uh, is that the word unhumane? Inhumane. Yeah. Sorry. Um, and, uh, like, you know, the, the food animal industry, like, you know, just packing chickens into a cage where they pump out eggs and stuff, you know, that's, uh, is, is it maybe somewhat necessary to have, you know, more chickens per square foot than maybe PETA is comfortable with? Sure. Yeah, but can it go too far the other way?

Of course. And so having these organizations that question some of those practices is probably a good thing to have in a lot of ways. So I think, you know, from that aspect, just the fact that they exist could have a second guess some inhumane practices. So yeah, touching on a couple of points there. I mean, I think, you know, I think last week's episode with Dr. Zach about, you know, science in herpetology or in the community community in the hobby, you know, that kind of a thing. You know, I think, I think science, you know, in those cases, in the use of science in the case of PETA, or HSUS is kind of the same, the kind of the same issue. And I think, you know, a lot of times that they don't, you know,

they don't, you know, look at let's look at industrial farming practices, you know, they, they go in and they secretly film, you know, cat, how cattle are slaughtered, and, and how, how, you know, kind of a brutal practice that is. And, and, you know, that's a FDA regulated government agency. And I promise you, I promise you the FDA has looked at humanely that how to most humanely euthanize those animals. Now, does everybody in that, in their butchering those animals follow that? i would assume they're regulated to do so you know can you control everybody a hundred percent of the time or or or somebody who's you know not just like you can't control every herper who does a dumb thing you you can't control you

know every every cattle processes or who does a dumb thing so you know this whole kind of gotcha mentality that they have, I, you know, I just I feel like I understand that there's people making bad decisions around animals. There's people making bad decisions everywhere. And and it kind of goes to people who are reptile breeders. And they're not putting that out there as, this is how you shouldn't do it, but this is how you should do it. They're just saying, this is how you should do it. this is how you should do it they're just saying this is how you should this is how you should do it so get rid of everything so and and and they take they use they use a negative example which of course everywhere you know you can always find a negative example right and that's kind of my point in the cattle you know with the cattle is you can always find that negative example. If you, if you can get a camera into the right place and,

and most people love to eat their beef, but they don't really want to know how it's and when they do, Hey, the sausage is made. Yeah. That's not a good look. And maybe, maybe you make a choice about how you eat based on that or what do you change your preferences? But, but I just think it's disingenuous um and you know i i think um should we advocate for the humane treatment of animals absolutely 100 all the time in in our food in our food supply system in our in our captive pet you know trades of course of course we should but but should these agencies be the ones who are the who are the the the nightstick in doing? I don't think so. I think that that goes that should go to federal regulators and to and to regulatory agencies. not doing their job, then, then, you know, maybe, maybe these places do have some, um,

good that they can, that they can do, but, but by and large, but by and large, I'm not, I don't think that the way they behave and the way they practice are a net positive. I don't think that they've changed the cattle industry for the better. I don't think they've changed chicken farm. What I think has changed chicken farming for the better is free range initiatives, ecological, low till, where people are using different practices where you spread them out, you let them poop in over a broader area, you use a more holistic farming approach, which works against kind of the centralized agriculture that we're doing. ever done or HSUS has ever done for the de-industrializing or the dehumanization or the de-good of animals, you know? Yeah. Well, and I mean, we don't know, but those changes may have come or those practices may have come as a result of the efforts of some of these more extreme groups.

And I'm sure that they would consider that a win, that more free-range chicken farms are popping up, and hopefully they have some advantage to compete for the marketplace. I think people will pay attention and say, I'd rather buy free-range eggs, you know, the farm farm factory farm type eggs. But, you know, you've got a point, right? Their their tactics are extreme. They kind of base all their tactics off of fear.

You know, look at what you're doing to these poor little puppies and kitties and chickens. And, you know, don't. And again, like I'm all for, for ethical treatment of animals. And, and, you know, I'm kind of in one of those, uh, uh, contested areas of, of research where we do use animal models for some of our viral studies. Right. And so, um, do I love animals? Yes. Do I care about the rodents that are in my research facilities? Of course I do. And I would probably contest there are no more well cared for animals than rodents in a lab, you know, to some extent. So they receive all the you know, they we have a veterinarian on call for for anything that's happening that's not in the expected range and all sorts of regulations and food and water.

And what do we do? Do we say, well, you know what? The value of lab animals is more important than humans and we should go back to dying from preventable diseases. Yeah. There's a trade off. There's definitely a trade off. And, you know,

I think, I think what you have to, to realize is, is if you take that mentality, what you're perpetuating is the, is, is the extreme where you say, yes,

people should die from preventable diseases. Humans should decline. Population should decline. And it leads you to a very – and look, I get it. Our population is not going down. We're not trending towards moderation, conservation, or the middle ground in any way. So I get that it's – Well, I would disagree. There are definitely efforts to mitigate or help mitigate the efforts or the

effects of human populations. There's conservation efforts. There's lots of efforts to improve our situation despite the, you know, high population or whatever. Well, and I think standards of care go towards moderating population more than anything else. And again, too, in the research industry, like I listened to some of the old professors that were back in the day and like, I mean, an acceptable or I don't even know if they had acceptable and unacceptable methods of euthanasia. You know, like when you were done with the rat, you just whacked it over the side of a bench and threw it in the garbage or something.

You know, like things have changed for the better in that regard, where animals are considered important and their life matters as much as any other life. And I think if you're a true animal lover, you know, you, you appreciate the value of life, but you also balance that with the understanding that some animals eat other animals, you know, and there is some stress in being eaten by, you know, a predator and, and nature is, is sometimes brutal, you know, those kinds of things. So, and, and I guess, I guess my whole thing is like, do does the world need an hs us or a pita to get that message do we need those organizations to be there to give us that message that you know that's that's a that's a good question and kind of the focus of the debate today and and you know maybe not but they need something that's kind of counter to you know

these wide practices like somebody has to come along and say you know the fact that that farmer is beating that cow you know punching it in the face to get it to do something that's probably not a good thing for the cow or the farmer you know maybe he's some psychotic you know individual that doesn't need to be around animals so then they say hey fda let's do farmer you know maybe he's some psychotic you know individual that doesn't need to be around animals so then they say hey fda let's do something you know government let's do something about this this is we need some regulations for this and so they make rules you know yeah you you can't just beat your animals and that's that's against the rules and that's against the law will it still happen of course you know you can't watch people all the time, you know, but hopefully they,

they will do it less or whatever, because there's a law in place, you know, that. Yeah. And, and I, and I feel like, you know, animal standards and animal practices have definitely improved. Right. I think we can agree on that. And so I think what, you know, where we go is, is it because of these independent agencies that push an agenda? It's the next part that bothers me where they take an extremist approach to the restricting, to the full restriction, to the max restriction, to the point where they're talking about people shouldn't own reptiles or fish or whatever. And once they're done with that, what they're really talking about is people shouldn't own pets. I mean, I think their ultimate goal is the fact that people shouldn't own any animal, that every animal should be free, which never mind the fact that they're glossing over a whole other set of ecological issues around animals roaming free in their destroyed or disappearing habitats. So I feel like they're ecologically short-sighted. They're extremist in the way they think about things.

And it's interesting because – and you know what? I guess I'll be honest and say that I don't know a lot of PETA people. I don't know. But the interactions or the interactions that I've seen, they don't come off-ish people. And, you know, I, as an environmental guy, I fully support, you know, environmental interventions, but I can't support environmental extremism. You know, I don't support that. Yeah, I agree. But I guess my point is whether we agree with their tactics or not, do they have results? And sometimes they do. I mean, they definitely influence places like PetSmart,

you know, that don't sell live feeder rodents, you know, things like that where, but is that a reasonable thing? You know, some may say no, others may say yes.

That's, I mean, that's the, I guess my whole thing is, yeah, for the, from PetSmart point of view, it doesn't impact their bottom line enough to worry about it. So they're not going to sell a feeder rodent, you know, based on a moral principle that maybe was, you know, reinforced or put on them by one of these radical organizations. You know, it's hard to say whether or not

that's a positive or negative. I guess it depends on what side of the line you stand on. I just don't see how PETA or HSUS's bully pulpit, you know, browbeating PetSmart or Petco changes anything when you have Lane Labs or any of the other rodent breeders who do this who are going to be like, yeah, no, we're not doing that because there's tons of animals that need to eat. And that's just, I mean like it doesn't – none of their humanity cries over feeder rodents changes the fact that there's pets in the world that need to eat. Now, if nobody owned those pets, those animals would still need to eat. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

So if they're doing it in nature and that's happening naturally, that's OK. But when humans get involved, that's not OK. And I mean, we're happy to like put out poison bait and let the rodents, you know, suffer slowly and die or or, you know, some of these live traps where they might stay in there and, you know, slowly suffer and die. So, you know, there's there's a lot of things when when humans and, you know, hunting is a great example of that. You know, when we've messed up the predator populations and resulted in an increase in an abundance of prey that's going to suffer and die because unless we intervene and have hunting and things like that, you know. Yeah, we created the problem, but also the solution is not just to let all these deer slowly suffer and die. And look, there's, you know, hunting is heavily regulated. Can somebody go out and shoot something without a tag?

Yes. If a game warden catches you, definitely. They'll take your shit. Same with labs and, you know. Yeah, they'll take your gun, your car, your boat, your everything. Like, they don't mess around with that. And, you know, for elk and moose, there's only a few tags a year, depending upon the area. So this is stuff that's highly regulated.

And this is what I'm talking about is these agencies that do this, they do it data-driven. You know, they look at the populations, and then based on what those populations look like, you like, that's how many tags they put out. Yeah. Hunting is probably a bad example of that. And I think a lot of people are more scared into not hunting because they see all these sad videos that maybe some of these radical organizations put out but but i think like and i would also argue if i may if i may that hunters are probably some of our best conservationists uh in in the sporting world uh they care more

about the environment and the animals than than i think they are ever given credit for and have done quite a bit of good for wild populations. They're not in this to see animals disappear off the planet. And most of them love animals and love nature. So again, you contrast the hunter who kills and takes animals versus PETA and HSUS. I see more compassion in a hunter who kills for sport than I do in an agency like PETA and HSUS I see more compassion in a hunter who kills for sport than I do in an agency like PETA and HSUS well I mean they are

euthanizing their animals in a humane manner but they're not using and they're not using the meat to feed their family or you know I mean again you know that there's there's we have laws on the books so we can't eat cats and dogs and horses

what you know what a crazy what crazy laws that is that's and you know that's that's fair that you you know you if you're euthanizing cats and dogs and you're eating them that's that's a i i get that i i'm not you know i'm just saying i'm. I'm just saying that to take somebody like a hunter and say, well, they just indiscriminately kill ants, well, that's not a fair assessment. Well, I mean, some do. Some are out there just for the thrill of the kill or whatever to put a trophy on their wall.

They'll go shoot. But a lot of times that's a double-edged sword too because it provides conservation efforts in the countries that they go hunt in and it provides money for the local economy and they're spending tens of thousands of dollars to go hunt these you know animals over in you know africa or something like that yeah so yeah definitely uh you can look at it like that dentist that got demonized for hunting a lion by some of these radical organizations where it probably helped the lion populations because he pumped all this money into lion conservation.

That lion probably was either a problem animal or something. I guess he was a research research animal so maybe they deemed his yeah and and and generally you know animals animals like apex predator animals that are hunted like that are are raised and and you know they're on game preserves and there there's you know there's regular it's not it's not just like we take this guy out in the middle of nowhere and we just let him go shoot at shit. You know what I mean? It's not like that.

Now, if you're killing elephants for ivory or something like that where it's a bit more sketchy, that's a different story. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I guess in an industry like ours that's poorly self-regulated, there's elements like that that could potentially be a benefit to bring awareness to the problem organizations or businesses that are out there that don't give a crap about the animals and that will just just keep them, you know, and just kind of let them squander and die because, you know, well, they're not going to make me money because they're sick. They might as well just die off anyway. Or there's, you know,

dead and rotting animals in cages and things like that, because they have too many of these imported animals and they can't take care of them properly. You know, people like that should definitely go away. You know, these flesh peddlers in the reptile hobby, you know,

and, and if it takes an undercover PETA agency to kind of expose that now, I'm, I guess I'm maybe giving our regulatory agencies maybe hopefully credit that's due, but maybe more credit than they deserve when, you know, some organizations,

I hope they recognize that these organizations like PETA or HSUS are more radical or kind of on the fringe and that they take their recommendations with a grain of salt, you know, like maybe they shut down this reptile business that's keeping, you know, has all these dead animals or, or fine them or, or help, you know, give them some motivation to fix those practices and keep their animals responsibly versus just saying, well, let's make all reptiles illegal to keep, you know, there's, there's some, there's definitely a lot of ground between those extremes where, you know, take care of the problem, but don't over-regulate and don't try to make everything illegal because that's easier than, than regulating it.

And I can definitely give you a little bit on that, where is, if, if these, if these, you know, NGOs were going in and, and, and, and exposing problems and trying to work with the reptile community to get, you know, some of the unscrupulousness that happens around us out of here and part and actually partner with us to make it better and not and not, you know, sell the idea that we are a problem to be to be eradicated or fixed or, you know, wrecking and recognize that, you know, we have a place. I just, you know, unfortunately, I think that their agenda and their end game is much more radical than that.

And the proof in the pudding is that they've decided it's easier to vilify us than it is to just work with us because it kind of, to me it, it, it, it kind of, to me kind of shows their hand to their end game, right? If they really, if they really cared and their goal was really to, to make the reptile community better, they would partner with us. And, and, and I think that, that at some degree we would welcome, you know, getting some of the, the, the, the not good people or the not good practices out of, you know, the reptile community, but it's just, that's not what's happening, you know, and that's not their goal. That's not what they're doing. So, you know,

that's why everyone rightfully so is like, yeah, they can freaking pack sand. And, you know, I, and granted everybody's kind of view on different things is different in some ways. I mean, I guess I'll use the example of, you know, cane toads in Australia, right? When I went over to Australia, there were some areas where there were just cane toads everywhere. And I was encouraged to run them over with a car or, you know, step on them or whatever when we see them in the environment. And I just couldn't bring myself to do it. I figured, well, it's not their fault they're here. They're established.

Me stepping on this toad or running it over with the car is not going to make a hill of beans to their overall populations. And I've got close friends that say say no that the exact opposite of that you are trying to you're helping um remove some of these problem animals from the environment and that will help the animals that you care about in their natural environment you know they're monitor lizard may not be killed by trying to eat this uh you know cane toad from that was you know hatched out from an egg laid by that female that you ran over with your car. So, you know, I get both sides. I just, for me, and, and I guess that's kind of the, the idea is we don't want to try to, um, force others to see our point of view and to be forced to do our, uh, you know, the way we see it, that needs to be done,

because there's more than one way to look at this. And that I guess that's the, that's the, the whole concept of this podcast is seeing the complexity in things that maybe some people see as black and white, like, just look at HSUS and say bad, or look at PETA and say, bad, completely bad, completely bad. But maybe there are some good impacts that they're having to help us identify issues that exist in different areas of animal keeping. So, yeah, maybe for me, I don't enjoy seeing a cane toad die because it's you know was put in the in in the wrong place by people um and and frankly like if i was if i if there was an effective method to eradicate cane toads from australia i would be all for it especially if it was a you know real relatively humane but

do you feel like do you feel like or not so humane i was gonna yeah but but but i feel like – Or not so humane. I was going to say – but I feel like what you basically said is, hey, I'm cool with getting rid of cane toads as long as I don't get my hands dirty. Well, no, no. I'm not saying – no, I'm saying if I discovered a way to eradicate cane toads and I was the one to carry it out, I would do it. What if the most effective means is running them over with a car? That would take millions of years to hit every cane toad with a car. I get it. I'm just saying. If the most effective

way was to find some way to funnel them into a trap and then run them over with a lawnmower or something like that, that's horrible. That's pretty bad. If that was the only solution to the cane toads and eradicating them from Australia, I would say, well,

the good outweighs the bad. The species isn't going extinct. It's still healthy and happy in its natural environment. But in Australia, it does not belong. Same thing with cats in Australia. I would not be opposed to hunting cats in australia like that's a that's a very important they're they're

terrible on the you know ecology of australia they do not they don't belong there but i've got great friends in australia that have cats that they go outside and maybe kill a bird here or there or a lizard here and there you know and it's i don't with that. I think that's not a good way to do things, but you know, they're fine with it and they, they, they, they're, uh, they're entitled to their opinions. But, you know, if we involve a government agency that kind of evaluates data and and, you know, data-driven method, then, you know, let's go with their recommendations and try to get rid of cats. But, you know, there's some animals that are just protected no matter how horribly damaged. And I think we hit on that with Dr. Zach last week, that, you know,

cats are much worse than tegus on the environment worldwide, you know. But we're going to focus on tegus in South Florida because they're really good at is fundraising and generating a lot of money. I can't argue with that. And what they use their money for. And it's how they funnel their money. And their money is going into lobbyists. Yeah. It's not going to help animals.

It's going to change laws to make it illegal to have any animals. And I guess in the grand scheme, they probably think that's a better thing. Like, oh, if the animals aren't kept in captivity. I think they think that's a more effective strategy but again it speaks to their radicalism yeah that they feel that by generating that on everybody else a hundred percent a hundred percent and and they understand that their opinion is not the popular one because they're doing they're they're using legislative processes rather than you know working with popular opinion uh or work you know so so they don't fundraise a bunch of money and then give it to government agencies and say hey can we evaluate this and make some recommendations they give it to

a lobbyist who you know grease politicians to slip it into a you know some some shit into a bill and try to pass it carte blanche. And that's where it's really kind of like, okay, that's dirty pocket pool. Yeah. No, I completely agree. There's no arguing against that that uh they are very good at fundraising and they they are very poor at preserving animal life you know they're they're euthanizing far more animals than that and i i think i think that the part that i dislike about it is is they're good at doing it by by by using people's love for animals against them. Yeah. Yeah. You know,

exactly. Yeah. They're showing these poor little sad puppies on commercials. And then you think, Oh, I'm donating to them. So they're helping that poor little puppy. They're rescuing it and giving it to a good home like me.

When the reality is they're euthanizing it and then they're using your donation to make it illegal to keep any animals. Yeah. And, and, and, and, and, you know, I mean, I guess maybe that,

that's not a stated goal and that's something I feel like their end goal is, is, is to, to, you know, eliminate the, the, the captive ownership of animals, which, you know, I mean, look, man, since, since domestication of wolves, we've, we have had animals as companions. We're social creatures. Like, I just I don't get it. Like, I don't it doesn't like I don't see the you know, I don't see the benefit for for the animals.

I don't see, you know, I mean, my dogs are much better because I'm in their life. I you're never going to convince me different. Never. Never. They get to comment on podcasts. They get to do crazy fun shit with me. Yeah, it's good. I mean, they live a good life.

So, you know. As do our reptiles, frankly. Yeah, 100%. And we are getting, I mean%. We care more about the environment. We care more about seeing the animals in their natural environments and protecting the environment, trying not to just flip logs and rocks indiscriminately. We try to clean up trash or whatever in their environment. Those kind of things where we're more ecologically minded and care more about the planet and care more about –

if we couldn't have those interactions with animals, I think that quality of life and the care for the environment would go downhill, you know, in general, in a population. Well, I mean, if you just looked at animals and plants as a symptom of why to care about nature right and you didn't and you didn't care about plants or animals then you're right why would anybody care like wipe it all out pave it all over there's no re there's no you know never mind our fundamental connectedness and net necessity to, to have biodiversity on this planet. You know, if you, you know, I don't think we'll exist without it, but you know, if maybe you're one

of those people who thinks we can cool, roll the dice on that. Good luck. Um, the science probably does not agree with you. Well, clearly I picked the losing side and i declare you the winner but i mean i you know i think there's there's there's uh thoughts to be made on both sides but overall i think they are just radical and and and uh out to just get rid of pet keeping completely and i think there are a lot of um good aspects, to having pets and to getting that connection with nature. So, and I will say that, you know, um, and this is kind of an environmental thing. Uh, and, and, you know, uh, and, and James Inhofe threw a snowball in, uh, in, in, in the Senate chambers and said, Oh, I don't see any evidence of climate change.

And one of my college professors was like, you know, he is not your enemy because his view is clear and present. You know exactly where he stands. And he does not support any type of climate common sense. You know that person. And so I kind of feel like PETA and HSUS are kind of like that. You know they're extremists. You know they're out to lunch when it comes.

It's that more moderate, more quiet, more cunning, and that's who you really need to worry about. So I don't necessarily worry about the PETAs and the HS the will of, of, of humans, uh, to, to want and to keep animals, um, is far, far stronger than their ability to lobby, um, uh, so far. So, you know, that's, that's kind of the heartening piece Tunes, I'd say. Yeah, I hope this discussion was not too triggering for some and had some useful comments for others and was enjoyable. But anyway, yeah, that was fun to talk about. I keep getting distracted. you've got some snakes back there behind you and i'm trying to figure out oh that's diamond pythons that's the diamond they're still inside yeah i need to get them then you get that dang cage finish and get them out but

oh now you got a lot more time yeah yeah yeah probably yeah yeah yeah i'll let i was curious how you're gonna mitigate the the heat for for them yeah i don't know i've been you know i i think we touched on this and and uh talk about it and i'm i you know i though still still well i mean i you know i i'm i'm you know i kind of have my plan but i i guess i i kind of need to set the cage up which which kind of would be like why I need to do it now when it's really, really hot. Um, so I can kind of take some data and see like how, how, uh, you know, how my design performs. Cause I just, you know, I don't, I don't want to, um, I don't want to get them out there and find out that it's just gets too hot, but you know, there's a part of me that's

like, I'm going to do more in this enclosure to mitigate the heat of summer than I did in my coastal enclosure, and they do just fine. So I think maybe I'm over-concerned about it, but I don't know. Maybe not. Did you pick up any of those Govee temperature humanity monitors? It's funny that you say that. I was just looking at getting some of those. I need to get a handful of those. I mean, they're so inexpensive, and that's something you could just throw in different corners of the cage and monitor it.

Just go in with your phone and download the information, and it shows the range of temperatures over days or weeks or months or whatever you want. Yeah. And I mean, I've kind of got a, I've kind of got a good plan going forward with how to mitigate the heat of summer. Um, and, um, I think, you know, a nice big thick substrate level at the, at the base of the cage and then, and then something under the cage where they can retreat to. Uh, and then like you said, getting some go V's and just kind of taking some temperature data. Um, I, I, you know, I got some time here. I, I, I definitely, um, you know, we, we don't get really horribly hot until, uh, like September, you know, late, latest September. Yeah. Yeah. So, so it's warm here now, but it usually hits nineties and is, is God awful, uh, in september uh time frame so so i

have enough time to kind of finish up and and get the govis going and kind of see what the the temperature is like but that said you know um the coastals they you know they'll hit they'll hit upper 80s low 90s uh and and they do find that you know they're they're good diamonds do in their natural habitat yeah and and and and obviously like when it's hot during the day the coastals aren't out and then once the sun goes down they come out and they they yeah they they're out in the cooler the cooler night air and hang out out there until they tell you know catch a little sun in the morning and then they're back in there to hide from the heat of the day so you know i think i think i think they'll be just fine um yeah but yeah just you know always kind of uh you get in your head thinking all those different you know like i gotta all these

parameters all this stuff you know you you just you just want to make sure you're doing the best for the animal and making sure but maybe check out some of the the rick shine literature and see kind of what the wild diamond yeah doing what kind of temperatures they're hitting and see if you can model that with your enclosure that's yeah base it on the most of all rick shine stuff's online right like you can yeah you go to his website he's got all his papers listed and most of them are nice okay really accessible you can type him in the Google Scholar, Rick Schein and Diamond Python, you'll come up with a bunch of free articles

I'm sure. Because they've been published long enough ago that they're definitely free. I think Rick Schein is my Steve Irwin by far. Rick Schein's the man. He's so cool. I'm getting close. I'm pretty far into his book. I just love it.

I need to get that. Yeah. Is the book expensive? Is it really pricey? No, it's like 30 bucks. Oh, hell. I mean, I got the softback edition. I didn't get the hardbound, but yeah, it's very affordable.

Yeah. Nice. And you can get over, I mean, you can buy it from him directly, but that's going to add a lot to the shipping costs and stuff. But, you know, I got mine on Amazon. Sorry, Rick. Okay. Okay.

Well, enough said. Hopefully some of the money goes to him. Yeah. Yeah. So are you catching up on any podcasts or you have time to do that again? No, I haven't. You know, I caught you on the was a lizard brain radio for your oh yeah yeah yeah that was a little while back you got to listen to that i gave i gave you

your just dues on that i i believe yeah oh yeah you're very generous i'm sure um I liked it. Well deserved. I've been listening to this Pingel podcast, so much Pingel. And one of the guys that did his graduate work at Utah State, Andrew Durso, was on. So that was fun to hear him. And he does a really cool blog called Snakes Life. Something like snakes are long, but life, life is short. Something like that. Yeah.

I'm sorry. I butchered that, you know, my brain, but anyway, it was, it was a fun one and it looks like he's got some more good stuff up there. So,

um, I, I like his podcast. He has a good job. Um, and then it looks like the herpetoculture network guys had the peak call on and Tim, Tim,

Tim Tim. Tim Morris. I need to check that out. Yeah. That looks good. I know. You know what? From all the falderol of work and all that, I am so far behind on podcasts.

MP put out a new one. I haven't listened to it yet but it's got it's uh i'm breeding black white lips so he's gonna impart his wisdom and his experience in getting white i guess he had some hatch out right so yeah he did yeah that's pretty exciting way to go yeah i told i told him that was mackintastic Yeah, that's right. And, you know, I always enjoy listening to Carpets and Coffee. I like listening to the Podfather. He's good. And Lucas and Owen, you know, they make a good mix. It's fun listening to them.

Yeah. No, definitely. Well, I was a little concerned. I heard Eric's breaking up fights at work, And I'm like, what is going on? I mean, I guess, I guess I did know that he worked in kind of, you know, not, not the sketchy area of town, but maybe not, maybe not the easiest, maybe not the easiest clientele coming through the door. I mean, that's, stay safe out there, podfather. We need you.

Exactly. I tried to give him a call today, but I think he's out herping, so he didn't answer the phone. Well, good thing he didn't. He's off enjoying himself. That's good. Yeah, he deserves that. He's got some cool snakes and water snakes and stuff. So getting out there herping. Good job, man.

Well, I think we did it. Yeah, I agree. Thanks again to the Morelia Python Network and check them out on their socials and, uh, listen to their podcasts. There's some great content out there. Um,

and, uh, thanks to, to Eric and Owen and, and we'll, uh, uh, hope to catch you again next week for another episode of reptile fight

club. Until next time. Don't do crime. Thank you. Bye.