Reptile Fight Club - Herping for Rare vs. Common Species w/ Shane Madsen

Episode Date: July 5, 2024

In this episode, Justin and Rob tackle the topic of Herping for Rare vs. Common Species w/ Shane MadsenWho will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comIGFollow Rob @ https://www.instagram.com/highplainsherp/Follow MPR Network @FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQSwag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

All right, welcome to another episode of Reptile Fight Club. Today, we're joined by Shane Madsen, so we're happy to have him on. Thank you. Welcome to the show. Thank you, guys. Glad to be here. Yeah, yeah, nice to have you. With me, as always, is Mr. Bobby Pebbles, or as you may know him, Rob Stone.

How's it going? Awesome. Great to be here. This should be super fun yeah yeah good stuff so I guess we we kind of got connected with Shane through through some pretty cool events and I'm sure he'll talk about those as we, we talk about the, the, go through the topic on the show. And, um, so we won't give that away right now, I guess, but, uh, yeah, some, some, uh, cool finds that he's had, uh, in his, uh, herping career. So, um, but yeah. Uh, so I don't know. Do you, do you, uh, keep my, uh keep animals privately or you just hurt? So not at the moment. Next week I'm getting a pair of brettles. OK, cool. Yeah. Yeah. They're they're awesome pythons. Yeah. I'm getting a male and a female bretto hypo. Oh, very nice. Yeah. They're cool snakes for sure. That's one of my favorites. Yeah. I still need to see it in the wild, though.

That's hopefully next year we'll take care of that. Over in Alice Springs, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's my big 50 year old, my 50th birthday bash we're going to have over in central Australia. So you're welcome to come if you're available. So yeah, it's definitely, I'm thinking about it that's okay if i can make

it work you know yeah yeah i'll give you the details so yeah the more eyes the better i think over there absolutely yeah that's how i feel about a lot of things more the eyes the better yeah well i had a couple clutches hatch out in the last, uh, since the last show, I believe. So I got some, uh, pygmy pythons hatching out and some, um, Eastern stems from kind of a selective, uh, some holdbacks that I've, I've had that are just really nice stems since pythons, Eastern stems. So, um, trying to refine those, keep, keep getting better and better Easterns, but they're turning out really nice. There's, a really crazy uh stripey looking thing in there so i'm excited to see how that one turns out i'll probably hold on to that one but yeah um now the the fun challenge of getting everybody eating um starts but i was uh hoping for a second clutch of pygmies but the uh the the female laid mostly duds and then the ones that

looked okay she didn't wrap and so and i was out herping so i missed that clutch and um i think there was only two two good eggs in the clutch anyway so i don't know we'll we'll give her a shot next year but they're they bounce back pretty pretty quick. I was thinking about doing also maybe down the road getting a pair of northern pines. I want to maybe just do a colubrid that you don't see a lot of people out here doing northern pines or anything like that. So I think it'd be kind of cool to do a species that not a lot of people do. Yeah, it's kind of cool to kind of be a champion of a species uh i think rob's done done that with with a number of species but i mean you're kind of most well known for you know the rhino rats and some of the other some of the

island boas and things like that so yeah yeah it is cool to kind of take the take the reins and and we you know have a project that you it's kind of you. When people think about, you know, a certain species, they'll say, oh, I know who keeps those, you know, a nice way to do it. Yeah. Yeah. You're a little on signature. Yeah, exactly. I've I've kind of tried to do that with the Antaresia. So, you know, and try to keep those, keep those coming into the hobby and definitely had really good success with the Western Stimson's pythons. Those are definitely my favorites, but yeah, they're really cool and they've done really well for me here. So I've, I've not gotten into the, the, you know, the world of breeding, you know, snakes. So it's going to be, it's going to be interesting trying. So for my first time, so. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I also have kind of a lot of interest. So my collections kind of spread through a bunch of different species.

You know, I only have maybe, I have some projects where I have probably close to 15 pairs or something, you know, but other projects where it's like um just a two animals or you know just a pair of things so yeah yeah it's a little tricky when you know if something happens you're left with not much so if you do have a signature species it's a good idea to have you know at least a couple pairs or yeah a little backup plan right yeah yeah hold back some offspring or something but that's true i did a show on pygmy pythons uh with eric and owen last night and so um that was one of the mistakes i made early on is just selling all my offspring and not holding any back and then i lost

my uh casey lazik uh line of pygmies and I, I still don't have that line cause I didn't hold any back from the couple of years that I bred them. And so that was kind of a bummer, but that's, uh, those are fun lessons that I somehow keep learning as I, you'd think I'd figured out by now, but apparently. Yeah. No, I I'm stoked for those brettles though. They're, they're gorgeous. So where are you getting them from? A buddy of mine's actually selling me a pair. Oh, cool. Right on. Yeah. Yeah. It'll be, it'll be fun. Yeah.

Cool. So you spend a bit of time out herping though, right? Oh, sometimes I feel like I spend too much time herping. No, it's never too much time.'s not enough time i should say right it's not enough time yeah that's cool do you mostly focus on utah or do you so they're filled mainly for the last few years utah i focused on you know um i did move out i think it was back in 2021 i moved to virginia for a few months okay about i'd say about six seven months i did quite a bit of herping out there oh nice got some pretty cool species out there got uh let's see what did i get i got rough green out there um i got the mole king while I was out there, which was really cool. Yeah, that's kind of a rare find, right?

It is. And that's, you know, and the way I found it was also kind of a rare way to find it, too. I found it while doing, because I used to deliver for FedEx when I lived out there. And I found it in the middle of the day, 90, like 95 degree weather in a neighborhood doing a delivery crossing the road. And I jumped out cause I was like, cool snake, you know? So I jumped out and I was like, Whoa, what are you like? You're not supposed to be even out right now. You know? So that, that was a really cool find. I think, you know, that was one of my coolest finds out there. Yeah, I love those kind of unexpected things.

That's how I found a diamond python over in north of Sydney a bit. But yeah, we were out looking for like water dragons and lace monitors, that kind of stuff. Middle of the day, you know, heat of the day. It wasn't necessarily a terribly hot day, but we're walking through a cemetery of all places. And all of a sudden there's this diamond Python just crawling on the ground, you know? Oh, wow. Yeah. Not expected at all. I wasn't, didn't even have it on my radar, like keeping an eye out for it. And I'll, oh, there's a diamond right there so and it was a really uh good looking diamond so i was pretty thrilled to have seen that yeah it's always it's always fun when you're

not expecting to see something and you know the certain circumstances where you are the placing the time and it's it's always fun when you see something that you're not expecting to see. You weren't targeting and you didn't even have that in mind. That's what you're going to be looking for, you know. Right. Those good surprises. Yeah, I like that kind of stuff. Yeah, it's always exciting.

Yeah. So tell us a little bit about kind of your background, where you fit into herpetoculture. Well, I started out liking snakes ever since i was a kid my dad my dad would take me out um snake hunting oh cool and uh my dad was always into it since he was a kid you know growing up in southern california yeah so growing up my dad would take me out snake hunting over by bell mountain down in california like barstow area all that area yeah and uh you know just finding the usuals out there king snakes shovel noses yeah you know a lot of shovel noses shovel noses yeah i know i really want to find one now i haven't seen one since i was a kid and it's time to go find one.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, and then, you know, my dad never really got into like the, you know, like scientific names or like, you know, map ranges of where the species may be. It was just whatever we went out and we could see, you know, that's all, that's all it was about back then. Was it just snakes or was it like kind of, you know, general naturalist type? I mean, you were, were you just out hiking and, or was it specifically targeting snakes? Just seemed like just mainly targeting snakes, you know, growing up, you know, my dad would just, we would, he would take me road cruising, you know, he had his buddy that, you know, would go with us. And that was also in the snakes.

And it was cool. Okay. So he was a real herper. Yeah. Yeah. And then I think it was when I started really getting into it, it was probably about 2000 and I want to say 16. Okay. I started really getting into the hobby.

I would always go out, you know, still looking for snakes, but I was kind of like my dad, you know, I would just wherever I went and whatever I found, you know, and then, then one day I was like, man, I'm tired of seeing the same stuff. So it's like, okay, what do I got to do? So, you know, I, you know, hit up people, you know, asking them, you know, for spots and stuff like that. Like, where do I go to find this? And you realize real quick, people aren't going to tell you. You know, a lot of people will not say, um, you kind of got to do the research, learn, you know, learn yourself. And that's, that's kind of how I met Aspen. Okay. Yeah. Aspen man, a friend of the show. He's been on here a time or two, I think. Yep. And he, he, he really helped me out. He didn't, he didn't shut me off or anything, you know, he was like, dude, you know, do the the research and so i did the research and then i would send him a you know a picture on messenger of this you know the species i was targeting and after three or four times of doing that he was like all right i'll go out with you yeah

yeah so it's you know so the kind of kind of way I fit in is definitely, you know, do your research. You know, you can't just go find, you know, a pyro out and, you know, anywhere or, you know, certain species, you know. You got to do your research. Yeah. And understanding, you know, the natural history and, you know, kind of when they're out and when they're on the move. Exactly. Time. Where to look. What time of the day, you know the natural history and you know kind of when when they're out and when they're on the move exactly time where to look what time of the day you know yes there's a lot that goes behind it sometimes you know ignorance is is bliss and you might have stumble upon some some things that people don't know i know rob kind of likes this uh idea of kind of the shoulder seasons or not

going out when everybody else goes out or, or looking maybe in an area that's similar to where they've been found, but not the main area where you find them, you know, at least if, if you found something before, but you know, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it's, I think that, you know, maybe Rob can speak to that, but you know, do it. Yeah, absolutely. I think, I don't know, it's just there's more interest in that than replicating what other people are doing, right? So that if you really feel like you get a feel for it, and as you highlighted there, it's a lot easier to be more freewheeling with that if you've already seen it. And you can say, okay, I'm going to be a little more adventurous as opposed to just repetitively doing exactly the same thing over and over.

Yeah, it seems like that's what you discovered, you know, you get good at finding something and then it kind of is not as exciting anymore, you know, and you, you need that next big fix or the next, uh, exactly. And then that's, that's where it comes into play. You know, you gotta, gotta figure out, you know, what's targeting that species, you know, like general ranges, times, their best conditions, you know. There's a lot to it. Definitely, yeah. And, you know, it's a little, especially in Utah where it seems like if you have a drought year or something, the snake activity goes way down. You know, I think last year was a huge water year and i mean

records of of certain species went through the roof you know where in previous years it might be a little bit slim pickings yeah so i i definitely i can concur to that i i've been out sometimes eight in the morning you know from sund from sundown, you know, eight, seven, eight p.m. to eight in the morning. Yeah. Yeah. Not finding anything. Oh, yeah. Right. That's the that's the downside of herping. Right. When you're not finding anything. But but I do think you have to kind of go through the the pain to understand the joy or to learn how to find them better or, or the, you know, I guess methods that work for you or, you know, things. So, but yeah, a lot of, a lot of, uh, snakeless nights. Yeah. I had one just, just last, no, two nights ago I went out, you know,

thinking it was a little bit cold. So I was thinking maybe stuff would be out on the road cause the sun was out you know heating up the road but it was kind of cooler uh air temps but yeah nothing was moving so i did a few passes i'm like yeah this is probably not worth it especially when it was getting later i'm like yeah they're just gonna be further under with the cold temperatures but today i went out and uh was able to find two just massive female garter snakes, probably the biggest garter snakes I've seen. They were heavily gravid. They were huge, but it was really kind of weird.

It was this female was like moving her tongue kind of strange. Like she'd kind of flick it to the side and then she'd do like this loop thing it was it was the most really bizarre behavior yeah it was kind of a weird thing that i'd never noticed before you know and i was kind of like holding you know holding her trying to get her to pose and she's squeezing on me and you know making me stink pretty good but but yeah trying to you know get a picture and then she starts doing this weird tongue behavior so i don't know i've heard of uh like some snakes that will use their tongue as a lure like they they keep the tines of the the tongue the fork tongue they keep them together so almost mimics a worm or something so they're getting things to you know come in closer to the head i think it was oh I can't remember what species it,

but it seems like some venomous snake was using its tongue as a lure. It was a publication, I think maybe in her review or, or somewhere, but, and then but yeah, I don't know if this was like an anti-predator thing or if she was just trying to, you know, sense the environment trying to figure out what i was and what i was trying to do you know if i was i've never seen it yeah it's interesting yeah so that's i guess that's kind of the fun of herping is you get a you know observe different

behaviors potentially and even in something that i've seen you know hundreds of times in a you know wandering garter snake, but this time it did something different. So kind of, that's true. Interesting. You know, yeah. You find a lot of the same species and stuff, but it's always, each one has its own unique, you know, ways of doing things and, you know, patterns and it's always, you know, that's, that's one thing with like leutosis i i do love finding loots because there's they're so variable yeah you know and patternations oh yeah you know depending on the habitat exactly and depending on the habitat and

you know i've seen some from super dark to super almost white looking you know yeah like well you know it's it's amazing how how variable they are right that keeps it interesting too because they are a fairly common rattlesnake but seeing the variability in color and pattern and finding them in different habitats is is really kind of a exciting thing, even if you've seen a hundred of them. But there was one we found in St. George area that was just gorgeous. I mean, white, you know, that white with the dark saddles and dark hair. It was just beautiful snake. And then a few weeks later, I was looking up Logan Canyon and saw one that was very similar, had that kind of light background with the dark spots. And then I found one a few days later that almost looked like a speckled rattlesnake. It was

really like really, yeah, just in the same, like the same area, um, you know, within probably, you know, less than a quarter mile of each other, you know, that difference in, in appearance was just striking. It was really cool. awesome yeah yeah leutosis are they're a very underrated rattlesnake they are super common but yeah very you know underrated yeah for sure all right well yeah that's uh really cool it's uh nice to kind of get that introduction and spend that time with your dad. I'm sure, you know, out herping. My dad was more of, you know, he'd take me on backpacking trips. So a lot of the herping was incidental to that.

You know, we'd just kind of hike one up while we're, well, and then I'd beg my dad if I could take it home or whatever, you know. And depending on where we were, what species it was, he might let me or and, you know, they were very it was really nice to have parents that were supportive of, you know, my interests in that regard. And that's that's that's cool. I always wondered, you know, if I had a dad that was really into snakes or something, you know, if that would have been a hindrance or help, you know, because sometimes kids are like, I don't want to do what my dad does. I want to do my own thing. Yeah. My dad was into plants and, and I, I, for the life of me, I have a really hard time learning plants. You know, I have two older brothers and my dad got, like I said, got me into this and both my brothers, they're like, I don't like snakes, you know?

And they used to be right there beside me, you know, in the car going out and hopping out and catching them. And I'm like, you used to love them. Like what happened? Yeah. That's weird. Huh? It's, it's funny. It's weird. It's like people just grow out you know and me i i've just grown deeper into it so i and now it's like when you start really you know actually studying herpetology and i don't feel like there's ever a way out now yeah it just gets more and you know into it into it into it right yeah that's uh i guess that's a good problem to have i mean there's there's definitely worse hobbies so yeah yeah yeah that's cool all right well um today we're

going to talk about finding uh or targeting your herb trips to or or outings to kind of focus on rare species uh versus kind of the opposite just looking kind of in an area for whatever you can find. You know, if you if you want to go try for the really hard to find things or whether it's better just to go where, you know, you're going to find something and experience an animal. So I think there's definitely pros and cons to both those sides. So that was the topic that you suggested. And I think it'll be a fun one to debate, especially considering your experience. So we'll talk about that, too. So Rob and I will flip a coin to see who gets to chat with you here.

So why don't you give it a call there, Rob? You're muted, though. Tails. Tails. It is Rob. You're muted though. Tails. Tails. It is tails. You got one. Nicely done. What do we do? Usually you don't win the coin toss. I know it's never happened. That being said, I'm interested in hearing your views, so I will give it to you.

And then I will just interject. You know, I love being the peanut gallery. They can interject as opposed to having to drive the main conversation. I'll leave the burden to you. OK, sounds good. All right. And then, Shane, if you want to go ahead and call it. Tails, tails, its heads. So I'll go with the go for the easy, you know, go for the low hanging fruit and try to try to kind of expound on that. So I'll give you the targeting the rare stuff.

So I'll let you start out and maybe you could start out with maybe one of your your success stories that you've had recently uh if you'd like well um yeah so i think finding rare species you know it's definitely harder um you definitely spend more more hours on the field you know targeting a lot of these harder species um really really pinning down to times temperatures um habitat and you know spring you know what time of the year moisture moisture you know a lot of these rare species that we have you know down here so in utah that i still have to get that i still haven't personally got on a few, a couple of them. You know, moisture barriers are a big thing. So for anybody listening, always when you flip rocks,

please put them back and seal that moisture barrier back, please, for the next person out looking. There's nothing more frustrating than going to an area and seeing that habitat destruction by, you know, people who profess to care about reptiles. But yeah, if you care about reptiles, put those rocks back and, you know, do your best to leave it better than you found it if you can. Yeah. But yeah, like you said, finding a rare species. Yeah. So I found a leaf nose snake a few weeks back ago. And it was a, it was a mind blowing, you know, shock because I know that there's only been one

ever found and it was back in 1995 and it was dead. Right. And it was also a dor yeah yeah you know and you know waiting for that car to go by me and then seeing another car coming and going right over it i was like oh no like i hope it you know wasn't hit and i still seen it moving and i was like oh cool and i pull up and i'm like oh it looks like a glossy and then then, you know, just, just that, like, I can't even explain it, but it's just like that. My face just like melts almost and like pure excitement. Like, I don't, I know what this is like, and it was, and it, you know, getting out, like I was so excited. And the buddy that was with me, my buddy, Jeff, like he's not, I wouldn't say he's a herper. He's kind of getting into, into it a little bit.

He, he loves, you know know hearing my stories about finding snakes and he's yeah i took him out a couple years ago to find a mojave yeah rattlesnake out there and he's he messaged me that weekend he's like dude he's like i really want to go find a speckled and uh serasti so i you know sidewinder and i was like dude absolutely like i'll take you out you know yeah really in my head i'm like been out there so many times um so i took him out and we did one hike you know going up a hill looking for specs and no luck and i told him i was like kind of my routine is I'll do a hike up the hill, do a couple passes, come back to the hill, you know, if I don't find anything by then. So we hiked the hill, came back to the main road did one more pass on the

main road and yeah lo and behold leaf nose you know and i i can't say how lucky you know i feel to find something that you know like i said, nobody else has only found, but one person. And like you said, it was a DOR with it. And also it being alive, like that's awesome. Like, you know, that would have, that would have been such a bummer if that car had gotten it. I probably would have cried that night. I love that kind of excitement where it's almost unexpected. But, you know, and so in other places, you know, they're fairly common. But finding one in Utah is a very, it's a big rarity. So that's got to be just a crazy, exciting time for sure. So I, I was almost, you know, to the point where I didn't think, you know, anybody would ever find one out there, including myself, you know, like I, I would have been the guy that's like, I'm going to go to Valley of Fire and get one, you know, like I'll take the extra, you know, 50, 60 miles to go that, you know, further South.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember, uh, herping in California and they were like one of the most common snakes that you'd see on that trip. But, you know, I saw probably 20, 30 of them in, you know, in a couple nights of herping. And then, uh, on subsequent trips to that same area, I saw very few, maybe one or two, you know, they're just not i guess it was just the right time or the right year or whatever but they were just everywhere you know so i've heard that from multiple people and you know not only was it cool finding that species in utah but that was also my lifer for anywhere yeah so right and i that was one of my high on my list targets too was a leaf nose

that's cool like i said my buddy was with me and he didn't quite get the excitement at first of why i was so excited to find it yeah so i had to really break it down and then once he kind of you know realized how rare it was he was like that is cool you know like kind how rare it was. He was like, that is cool. You know, like kind of, and it makes me feel happy too. Cause I feel like now like that just brings him closer into this hobby as well. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe he'll catch on that excitement and want to try to do the same thing. And you know, you, you wonder too, like now that you found one or they're more out there or, you know,

and that's, and, and also the fact that you found too, like now that you found one, are there more out there or, you know, and that's, and, and also the fact that you found it, you knew what it was, you know? So it's not just somebody, Oh, it's just some weird snake or, Oh, it's a glossy or, you know, just kind of passing it off as something else or not knowing what they're finding. Right. Which we don't know if that's ever happened. Right. You know, somebody maybe have seen, you know, a leaf nose before, but we don't know if that's ever happened. Yeah. Right. You know, somebody maybe had seen, you know, a leaf nose before, but we don't know. Yeah. I thought it was a rattlesnake for, you know,

all they knew or something there's. Yeah. But I think that's cool that you, you were the one to find it so you could identify it and properly record it, you know, that kind of thing. So. Yeah. I've kind of been hitting that area one, you know that kind of thing so yeah i've kind of been hitting that area one you know one or two times a week now just just to see if there you know possibility if it's the right time of the year that you know to find more you know i would like to see more of a population of them and i think it's still going to be rough but i think the main target going down there for them is washes. I think I need to spend myself.

I never really spent a whole lot of time walking the washes out there. And I think the washes is going to be the best bet down there for their habitat, that loose, you know, soil, rocky, you know, sandy soil. Yeah. In California, they were in pretty dry desert conditions, like out there with sidewinders, you know, they were, so it makes sense that you'd find one in that, you know, very corner Southwest corner of Utah where there's not, not a ton of, not a ton of water or, or, moisture of any kind yeah yeah so yeah that's that's kind of my you know focus right now is washes down there and trying to pull you know see if i can start getting more of a population seeing of them sure so but who knows yeah it could be another 29 years

right certainly the cool thing to me in terms of engagement with this topic is that we had seen my life or in southern california a month beforehand or whatever on the third trip there um you know obviously there's overlap with our trips and where you're highlighting not seeing them justin but um yeah so i just saw my first one you know six weeks ago or whatever and yeah that they're fantastic little snakes and they definitely do look like a glossy and then that was the thought you know hopped out of the car in exactly the sort of habitat you're describing and uh yeah it was like oh it's a gloss no it's not you know and it's the excitement of like wow this yeah this because it's something that i've really wanted to see for a long time as well but they're really tough to explicitly

target and now maybe we're picking up these little pieces of saying okay well based on this what can we do or whatever but even that yeah i do get the impression that there's something where when they go off they go off and otherwise they're just not surface active or we're not seeing them at the right time or or whatever and that goes back to the literature from the 1930s right of saying like they used to be thought to be an extremely rare snake and people were road cruising the desert in southern california and it was like oh well when they go off they they can really go off but otherwise yeah they're they're not uh a consistent consistently out, consistently found. Yeah. I think that was kind of, I took it a little bit for granted, seeing the numbers that I did that, that first trip out there and just being like, oh, this is just, you know, a snake that you commonly see,

but then on other trips you see none and you're like, oh, well maybe, you know, what was, what was the special sauce there? Cause it was, uh, I look back, it's, it was that first week of June and, and, you know, June 6th, 7th, something like that. So, um, whatever, for whatever reason, yeah, they were, they were out in abundance at that time. So, yeah. And no, it's, it's one of those things, you know, like how many times have people, you know, driven that road out there and not seen one. But we got to also remember how many times that were not people aren't out there during weeks, you know, work weeks and real dry parts of the year where people like we don't want to go out there. It's not probably going to be very successful. Yeah.

You know, we don't know how many have crossed the road since then. Yeah, right. Yeah, I remember one time I was passing through St. George. So I called up Aspen and Chris and said, Hey, I'm just passing through. You guys want to just do a couple of passes with me? And they're like, nah, it's too dry. You're not going to see anything. And I saw like four or five gopher snakes, a King snake, you know, a couple of crotes like DOR crotes. But yeah, you know, there are a couple of that. That's usually how it works.

Yeah, I had I had offered Aspen to come out with me that night as well. I bet he's kicking himself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, and I called him up that night when i had found it like i had video chatted because i was like dude i found it and he's like no and i was like yeah and he was like let me see and oh he was like that oh that's so awesome yeah and he didn't drive out there right then

no no that the fun was gone. Come on, Aspen. For him. Yeah. Well, he could have gotten some pictures in situ and all that. Oh, he did. He got some good pictures. Okay.

Cool. Yeah. Yeah, good times. Well, you know, I guess in regards to that, you know, I think that may, you know, kind of go to a little bit to my side as well, because, you know, you weren't necessarily out there targeting them. You know, you were just herping. And so, you know, sometimes you can get lucky and find something really rare or in an area that's unanticipated and you're not even really looking for it. You know, you're just out herping for the general stuff or whatever, you know. And so I think that, you know, that obviously that's a thing of great excitement. And, you know, if you can find something in an area where you didn't anticipate it, that's that's always a cool thing. Yeah, no, that, that was pure luck. And I think, you know, if, if you're,

you know, we talk a little bit about kind of getting, you know, I've been there, done that kind of thing. You know, I found everything in my area that I can find, but, you know, going to maybe new places or, or checking similar habitat in different areas. And it's, it's interesting too, where, you know, the habitat is similar to where you're finding things like, you know, maybe like a smooth green snake, you know, in Provo or Salt Lake area, but you get up to Ogden or Logan and they're, they're not there, you know, they're just not found up that high. And what, why, you know, why, if they can be found at, you know, that, that, those spots, why aren't they found further, further North? It's, it's kind of an interesting

thing, you know, what restricts things. And then, um, is it just our lack of adventure or not trying to look other places to find things, you know, so I, I keep hoping I'll run across some, you know, species that's not known from, from my area and be able to expand that range a little bit. You know, I had some friends that were in from, um, the Midwest and they were, uh, they came up to Logan cause I lived up there and they're like, Hey, you got some herping we could do, you know? So I just took them up Logan Canyon. We found a loot and a, and a gopher and um a couple other little things you know some lizards and stuff and then and you know they were only up there for a couple

hours and so they're oh you know that was worth coming up to see a few snakes and then they headed back and and i think they were somewhere in in uh sardine canyon and just found a little trail and hiked up the trail in the dark and found a night snake. And I'm like, Oh wow. That's a rare find, you know, for, for far, you know, that far North in Utah, you know, you're not finding a ton of night snakes. And I think there's one record of one in Logan Canyon. So it's like making me think I need to get out there more and target, you know, night snakes or try to find more night snakes in in my county that kind of thing same here i need to find uh two species out here that i get in

washington all the time but i haven't gotten iron county and that's long noses and and night snakes they're here yeah i i don't know i've lived here in Iron County for 22 years and I've yet to see one. Yeah. And I'm starting to question their existence here in Iron County, but I know they're here. Yeah. I just don't know where. So what are you, what are you, how are you going to rectify that, I guess? What are your plans? Um, so nice thing, probably flipping, honestly,

going out and flipping out here, um, which I do plenty of that for looking for ring necks. Yeah. And, um, long nose nighttime, dark, you know, a couple of areas out here where it's real sandy next to the roads so um that's probably my best bet and i've done a lot of it and keep trying and trying and keep getting nothing and the results still aren't there and you know it's it's cool because it's species i see so commonly down in washington county but i feel like it's a species, same species that I'll find here, but it's going to feel cool again, finding it. Cause it's like,

it's in a new County. It's, you know, your County that you live in specifically, you know, and spent years looking and he still haven't gotten one. And I feel like when I do find that you know same species and you know as down there that i've seen hundreds of times i'm gonna be excited again yeah right so have they been recorded in in your county at all there is yeah so there snakes on INAD as well. And the professor down here for SCU, William Hayborn, he's found quite a few himself. Okay.

Yeah, because it seems like they're kind of found throughout the western side of Utah, all the way from just south of the great salt lake down and probably further north i'm sure there not many people go up uh kind of on the west side of the great salt lake much uh for herping purposes but yeah you can find them close i um up towards the top of the state it seems but there's not many records up there, but I think that should be possible as well. Cause you can find them up into Idaho. So, you know, it makes sense that they would kind of have a contiguous range throughout, throughout you, you know, Utah on the West side. So, yeah. Yeah. Well those, those efforts. Yeah. Um, I, I guess, uh, you know, looking, I look at, there's some really good examples of herpers in Utah that kind of go outside of the

known areas. You know, I, I really think about like Brian Eager with his efforts with the, uh, um, milk snakes and finding them in all the counties that he can find them in, you know, he's searching new habitat and new areas and, and he's been fairly successful in finding them in most of the counties, you know, where they can possibly be found and probably we'll find them in more counties before he's done, you know, same thing. Absolutely. He's yeah. Right. Jones, same, same kind of thing. You know,

he's great at what he does. And, uh, I, I still have so many questions for Brian. Yeah, I know. He's a well, I can get some of those answers. Maybe we'll see. But yeah, you know, I, I love, you know, seeing his posts and seeing his photos and yeah, man, such an awesome dude. Yeah. And same with, uh, Thomas Wilder with, uh, the pyros, you know, he's like the, the pyro whisper pyro expert and, uh, just, you know, as a wealth of knowledge in regards to how to find pyros. I guess maybe, I don't know

if it's my, I just, there's just so many cool species and maybe I haven't done it enough or gotten to that point yet where I just want to focus on one, you know, species and kind of chase that species over and over throughout the state where it's kind of like, I want to see more than just one species, but at the same time, you know, I still want to see those species, but yeah, it's, it's maybe not quite so targeted or maybe more generalist approach. And, and, you know, I think, but there, there is, there is some joy to kind of saying, I want to find this species and here's where I think they are and going there and finding that species. That's, that's, that can be really a, almost a bigger

thrill because you can either expand a range or, or find something that's new to you in a new spot or something like that. So I don't know, it's hard to, hard to which which is more rewarding which is better yeah it's all rewarding you know putting in the the time the the hours you know when it comes down to it even if you don't find what you're looking for it just means you're going to be getting that much closer you know yeah so i always try to look at it at a at a brighter side you know um there's still two species for southern utah that i need to get off my list and it's my last two for southern utah and that's ring neck and blinds okay yeah those are both on my list as well those are those are the tricky ones right yep and uh i've spent hundreds of hours looking for rings and flipping and i i can't

seem to get one and some people are like yeah it's rare and then you get some people it's like i see them all the time yeah yeah i was getting confused between uh aspen mayhem and yes but yeah pat may and and rye jones and like the handfuls of ring necks like they have like five or six in one trip and and a bunch of milks to boot and i i asked him about that and he's like yeah that was that was weird it just kind of happened we you know you can't predict that you know it's like you just get out there enough and you might have one of those just once in a hundred years events of finding six ringnecks or however many they found i still just like drool over that photo, like thinking, how cool would that be?

But, you know, they put in the time, they put in the effort and they're out there all the time. I, I'm like, man, how do you, you know, I was asking Pat, how, how do you get out so often? He's like, well, I have an agreement with my wife that, you know, between the first of May and middle of June, I'm, I'm herping. That's what I do. Yeah. So I guess you, you just have to work out a deal with your wife and make it happen. But yeah, that's a challenging thing, especially with work. I guess if you have a, you know, either you can stay up late and have, you know, really you can function at work the next day.

But that can be a challenge to work really gets in the way of herping, doesn't it? It does. It really does. I I go out. It was just when was it? Monday night. I was down in St. George already getting ready to head to see, I wasn't even down there for herping. And I was getting ready to head back to Cedar. And when my buddy had called me and he was like, Hey, I'm in town for the night. And I'm like, Oh, Oh man, I was just getting ready to head back to Cedar. He's like, yeah. He's like, I just wanted to see if you were going to, you know, like to come out. And I'm like, I don't know, dude, like I got work in the morning. And then it's like that guilt hits, like, Oh, he's in town for one out. And I'm like, I don't know, dude, like I got work in the morning. And then it's like that guilt hits like, Oh, he's in town for one night. Like I gotta go.

I can pull through. Yeah. You know, and it, and it was super windy that night out there. And we still, you know, we got a long nose and a, and a leutosis. So I was happy with that. And I got a really pretty long, that was my first, you like long nose that was close to a claris face yeah yeah still wasn't quite I wouldn't say it's quite a claris face because claris means no red but um it it was the prettiest long nose I've ever seen so I was I was real excited for that yeah I got my first claris i think it was last year or the year before but

yeah we were just out here but i thought it was a cow king because it was just yeah that black and white banding i'm like oh wow and i'm like no that's a long nose whoa yeah it was really low i i can't remember how much it didn't have much red at all but it was just kind of that black and white phase of long nose which yeah i i still think i prefer the the high red you know that's really cool look any time you get red on a snake like that but it is cool to see the variability and to find the the different phases and things like that yeah it is yeah i've had some other kind of incidental uh lucky finds i guess but uh. We, we had kind of a misadventure in a Canyon in Eastern, uh, Southeastern Utah, um, kind of on the, uh, white Mesa area or not. Okay. Uh,

I think, yeah, white, white, white Mesa. Anyway, we were, we were out there doing a Canyon kind of over by height, uh, uh, by the, that arm of the lake pal. And, uh, we were hiking a Canyon with my daughters and it was a little rougher than I remembered. And my daughters were like, why did you think we could do this easily? You know, and you know, long story short, we ended up spending the night in the Canyon, which was not ideal and made my wife very nervous because she hadn't heard from us. She was about ready to get in the car and drive down there to try to find us. So anyway, we come out of the canyon in the morning and I spotted a canyon tree frog and I'm like, oh, check out this, the frog. And my, my oldest daughter's like, that's a lizard, dad. What are you talking about? I'm like, it's clearly a frog. Like, and I pointed at it and she's like,

no, there's what's, what about this lizard? There was a, a banded gecko, a juvenile banded gecko right below it on the same rock. And I'm like, Oh, I didn't even know they were, you could find these here. You know, that's really cool. But I had no, no, uh, phone battery left. So I couldn't take a picture. And so I was like, really, I was really tempted just to collect it. But then I'm phone battery left, so I couldn't take a picture. And so I was like, really, I was really tempted just to collect it. But then I'm like, well, you know, I don't know. We were planning on camping. So I'm like, it probably is not going to do great, you know, and I didn't really have anything to put it in.

So I'm like, I'll just leave it here. But then it turns out like it's 50 miles from the nearest record, you know, that I know of anyway. So I'm like, oh, it's kind of a range extension, but I have no picture of it. I was really frustrated, but kind of cool to see that. So I need to go back there and try to find some more if I can. With the charged phone, right? Yeah, exactly. Or a good camera or something. But yeah, I was talking to Brian Eager and I'm like, yeah, I found this, uh, banded gecko there. And he's like, oh, that's cool. We should go looking for more. And he's like, you didn't, you didn't happen to find any, uh, you know, Canyon tree frogs out there that way. I'm like, as a matter of fact, there was one on the same rock. And he's like, oh, that's, that's kind of a rare find out there too. You don't really see them out there. I haven't seen many out there.

And so, yeah, it's kind of just a luck of the whatever, I guess. Maybe a little consolation prize for the torment that I inflicted on my daughters having them sleep in a canyon on the Slickrock. That was the reward right there. Yeah, exactly. But, yeah, those incident was the reward right there. Yeah, exactly. So, but yeah, that's, uh, those, those incidental finds are, are pretty exciting, but you know, I, I didn't necessarily target them, but I think that can lead to now, you know, going out and exploring those same areas, trying to find, um, similar, uh, find more individuals or, you know,

expand our knowledge in that area on these species. Sure. I, yeah, I can't express. It's important, you know, putting in those hours. Because especially when it comes to these rare species, um, unless, unless you're just one of those people that get it based off of that luck, you know, and, uh, putting in the hours and the time, um, because if you don't, you're not gonna, some of these species, you're not going to get it. Yeah. And maybe you do, but like I said, it can either be luck or a long time.

But it's so rough with some of these species. I think Utah is a hard state to herb. It can be. Yeah, definitely. It can be. Yeah, for sure. You know, for certain things, it definitely can be a harder, you know, state to hurt where you go to Arizona or California and you get ringnecks, you know, out there all the time, you know, you can come of the ringnecks you can you know and especially in the eastern states or central states you can find 30 under a rock you know

they're just like oh yeah very very common virginia right yeah yeah and then yeah they're just a different animal here the habitat just restricts them it's very a difficult find and it's hard you know it's kind of hard to target them to some extent but i don't know some people seem to find them pretty easily so yeah i'm just hoping for some uh some upcoming moisture so i can go back to targeting those those two species blinds and renex and yeah i would i would love to checklist that off this year i don't know why not and might give me something again to start in spring no i feel the same way like it's well and it's a little a little harder for me where it's like a five-hour drive just to get this you know habitat where you can find them so yeah maybe

not quite so far for ringnex but yeah yeah see same i'm in the same boat too with you know starting northern utah because i need to you know start getting some of the species that you guys have up where you are you know rubbers smooths and milks and i went a couple months ago for milks and i spent eight hours out there you, just flipping these massive boulders. And I don't know what it is, but your guys' rocks are heavy out there. And I had no success with milks. And I was like, I don't know if I want to go through that again. It is pretty miserable. I think i'd much rather look for pyros than than milks just because yeah the the rock any day any day pyros you just hike and you see

one in a wash somewhere you know yeah crossing it's you know it's that was a rough day i and then i went for i went for boas while i was up there to hiking up for Boas and I didn't get no, I think the only thing I got up on there was a wandering garter when I was out there. I've got a decent spot. If you're, if you're ever up here, I can take him. We can try to find some Boas. I, that's what I went out for the other night and didn't find any, but, um, around this time last

year i found about half a dozen at this spot so they're really up there yeah and i've hiked them up there as well and i'll i'll definitely have to take you up on that because that's that's a species that i would really love to photograph so yeah they're cool that. That was my first pet snake was a rubber boa when I was a kid. Really? Yeah, terrible first pet for sure. But yeah, it didn't fare too well. But yeah, they're cool snakes for sure. I've been tempted to keep them again, you know, try to do them better justice now that I know what I'm doing with them. So yeah, I've tried to keep them off and on as a kid with limited success. So, yeah.

Yeah. But it would be. Yeah. They're they're really interesting and neat species for sure. So, yeah. Cool. I think, you know, that I guess regardless of how you how you herp or what your methods are or whatever, it does take a little bit of luck to to find these things, you know. And I think especially if you it seems like before you found a species, it's almost like kind of a white whale in some way, some of these species anyway. And then you you finally find one and then you're like, Oh, that's how you find it. And it kind of clicks a little bit more and maybe is a little

easier down the road. I, of course that depends on the species, but you know, it seems like that, that kind of helps a bit to kind of have that, that one out of the way. It's a little less hectic or a little less, you know, you're a little more relaxed and maybe that helps too. When you're, when you're trying to find stuff, but I don't know. That's, you know, you're a little more relaxed and maybe that helps too when you're, when you're trying to find stuff, but I don't know. That's, that's, that's what I usually, you know, tell people it's, it's 90% luck, you know, a lot of times it comes to really, really what it comes down to. And then the other 10% is just putting in those hours that time. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I mean, I, I was, uh, I,

I think it was Brian here that told the story about how he looked for a Kingsnakes in Eastern Utah and spent, you know, lots of time and gas money and hours out looking and stuff. And then, um, he, you know, he was about ready to give up. And then he saw one of the gas station, like crawling along the side of the pump and, you know, in a small town in Southeastern Utah, he's like, Oh, there's one right there. You know, I just had to fill up my gas tank and I'd find one or something.

It's crazy how it works. Yeah. Right. It's crazy how sometimes, you know, it works out that way. It's like the universe was by your side. Right. Yeah. It's pretty, pretty crazy, but yeah, you get, get lucky sometimes. And I think, you know, the more hours and i think you know the more hours you're putting in the more luck you're gonna have you know yeah exactly coco yeah exactly yeah it it definitely helps putting in those hours and i i'm loving seeing the you know i bumped into a couple new people this year um while out looking for pyros and you know it's cool seeing other people putting in the hours for some of these other species that are you know that

take a little bit more time to yeah you know put in for you know pyros is one I mean I know you can road cruise for them in certain areas but more than likely you know you're gonna have to walk on them you know yeah come up and i i think that's more rewarding too honestly walking things up you know yeah it's definitely a lot more rewarding um but yeah it's it's cool seeing other people out there in the field doing the same thing you've done you know seeing other people putting in those hours and right in. And it's, it's awesome. It's, it's kind of cool to see that the, the herping community in Utah is just, and maybe even around the world, it's just grown so much. And, you know, I just hope that people keep growing into it and enjoying the same thing

that I love and, you know, just respecting, respecting the nature of it. And, you know, my big thing is I just hope people are putting back, you know, rocks and keeping it good for the next person. Right. Yeah. I guess if, if they're road cruising, there's, you know, it's hard to get that wrong, you know, unless you run over a snake or something, but. Which I'm sure we've all done. Sure. On accident. accident right yeah but yeah if you find the snake get it off the road take a picture or two and then you know go on your way it's hard to mess that up but yeah definitely rock flipping is is uh is it's important to get that right or else you're gonna be destroying habitat and ruining

your chances down the line if you're looking in the same spot or ruining other people's chances in that same area yeah it's nothing worse than coming on an area that's just yeah especially with some of these species that are so moisture dependent you know and that's utah i mean you know and and i think you know there's there's probably a lot of i always think you know these giant rocks are the ones that are firmly entrenched that you're not going to be able to get though that's probably probably where they're hanging out, you know, so we get lucky on some of these smaller rocks that they might shelter under. So I'm hoping that, you know, the,

the majority of the population is using rocks that we can't really get to or get underneath. And so maybe that will, that kind of gives me a little consolation if I come across a disturbed area where people have been irresponsible and not replace the rocks. But yeah, that's definitely put the rocks back. That's that's very important, especially in Utah, where, you know, it's really hard to to get that humidity and get that right micro environment underneath the rocks. Exactly. underneath the rocks. Um, exactly. Um, I, you know, I think about, you know, kind of the time of year two in Utah, like kind of the spring is, is the, I guess, easiest time to herp, you know,

in May and June. And, uh, that's when you're usually finding the most stuff and then it kind of gets progressively harder as things get hotter and species move down but you might you might have better luck with certain species when it gets hotter and i wonder sometimes too if we uh give up you know during those times of year where it's like oh it's going to be too hot and dry i'm not going to bother or you know i'm not going to find what i want to find so i'm not going to go out or and maybe that's when they're moving you know know, kind of going, going back to. Very well could be. I know I'm, I'm one to admit that I've been there where I'm like, it's too hot. Nothing's going to be out. I'm not going out. Yeah. And you're usually right. I mean, there often isn't a lot moving and, but you might get

lucky and have some weird night. I think road cruising during the hot years. That's one thing, you know, I'll still do, but when it comes to flipping, you know, in the hot, there's no point. You're just ruining, you know, the moisture that was, you know, potentially could be under there. Yeah. You know, that's most likely not under there until it rains. But, so, um, I kind of, kind of give up on flipping around this time. And then I kind of wait, especially here in Iron County, for the monsoons to kind of roll in and see, you know, if we get enough rain. And then I'll start doing a little bit more flipping again.

But road cruising, I still road, you know, road cruise a lot when it's hot because on hot days because I love going out regardless, finding something or not. You know, it's the excitement of just getting out. And like I said, there's been plenty of nights where I've stayed out until eight in the morning with nothing. And but then there's nights where I've gone out when I didn't want to go out and I get a leaf nose. Yeah. Right. So that's a, that's a good lesson. It's kind of one of those times in the month right now too, where May and June is kind

of the best, you know, the best month for leaf noses. So I got to keep going this month out there. So, yeah. Well, good luck. I hope you, hope you find a couple more. That'd be really cool. I'm hoping so. Yeah. You need to come down, you know, more eyes out there. No, I'm, I'm about at my, uh, uh, rope sand with a time off.

So I've been neglecting things up here to go herping, but yeah, I could probably do a an overnight trip you know a friday night saturday type thing but i think we talked about maybe uh going up to that spot that i was telling you about for abysses yeah yeah that would be really cool and just just make a quick rocket run out there and check stuff out. Yeah. That would be awesome. Yeah, we'll have to make that happen. We'll pick a day or two and just go out there and explore a bit. Yeah.

Yeah, other than that, I just got a trip coming up next month for narrow-headed garters. Oh, nice. Down in Arizona? Yeah, down in Sedona. Cool. Yeah. That'd be a fun species to find yeah hopefully you get some of those i'm hoping so we kind of kind of got quite a bit of eyes going on

you know we got me chris naspin um one of aspen's buddies uh dustin will be going up there oh cool yeah oh that's right yeah he's he's our buddy too he was just on the last uh field there the herb trip in southeastern utah so dustin's great yeah yeah hopefully we can get enough eyes on the on that river and you know get get a species that's also another kind of rare species yeah right that's cool yeah sedona's a neat area I was just down there in uh April uh canyoneering yeah it was a lot of fun it's beautiful out there oh yeah yeah it's incredible uh landscape so I wouldn't mind getting back there to herp I wish I had more time but gotta save up my uh time off for a trip to Australia this later this year so So it's all work now, no play, huh?

Yeah, exactly. So I gotta save up my time, but about used up all my PTO. So yeah, but a rocket run over a weekend would probably be a doable thing. So let me know when you want to head out probably sooner than later. Right. But I have a friend that's coming in from Germany or, or Austria. I can't remember where they live either in Germany or Austria, but he, he was, he just messaged me the other day and he's like, yeah, my kids want to see a rattlesnake when we're over in the U S you know, I, I see that you're, you're finding some, so can you teach me how or or show me how so i'm like yeah let me know when you're around and i'll try to make it out there and if i can't make it out there i'll give you as many tips as i can think of to try to find one so that's awesome but yeah he'll

be in like the national parks and stuff in utah so should have a good chance should be too hard yeah yeah exactly but it's funny. Like, I don't know when, uh, we were in Canyonlands, uh, last or the week before last, uh, the, uh, one of the Rangers was like, oh yeah, I've, I've worked here for five years and I've never seen a rattlesnake in Canyonlands. And we're like, are you serious? Like, you're not looking then. You're not paying attention when you're driving at night or something because they're all over the place, you know, in this area. So if you're not seeing them, you're not looking.

I think that's what it is. Yeah. Somebody doesn't, you know, there's people that don't want to see them and that's, you know, kind of their way of avoiding all that. Yeah. You know, we're the guys that are like, our eyes are focused on that, that little line going across the road. Right. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, it is kind of easy to miss, miss those things.

And, you know, but you, you get better at it as you do it more for sure. And that kind of maybe speaks a little bit to the skill of it you know you might you can get better at spotting things on the road or spotting things on the shoulder things like that you know that that kind of comes with with experience or um knowing what a snake on the road looks like versus you know all the other assorted things that you see on the road and also just going back for something to check it out you know give it a second look because a lot of times we um it might not look like a snake there was a example from this last herp trip where i thought it was like one of those

road tabs because it was kind of a weird shape it was a baby con color unfortunately it got clipped on the tail so it was uh in the throes of death unfortunately but yeah it was not fun to have to you know put it out of its misery but um you know that's the that's how it goes sometimes but um yeah yeah but yeah i was glad we went back and same with uh we got a pyro uh road cruising i thought it was like a tar line and i'm like let's let's go look i think that was a snake and we flipped around and and it was a pyro so and it looked like it looked like a tar line because it had almost no uh red on it it was like again kind of like a cal king you know it's just so so much uh black on that thing it looked like a road tar, you know, tar strikers. So it was pretty cool. I haven't cruised a pyro crossing the road yet, but I have cruised a pyro on a dirt road

looking at a pile, you know, cliff rocks. Oh yeah. Yeah. And seeing one on the cliff on the side of the road as I'm driving. And that was cool. Oh, yeah. That's really cool. Yeah, to see one while you're driving on the side of the road anywhere, that's some skill right there. Yeah. Yeah. I guess it helps when it's a red and, you know, black and red and white snake.

Yes. Very cool. That's got to be a highlight for sure oh it is it's it's definitely up there on the one the rememberable and that was my life for as well so nice very cool i think we lost rob well i think rob said he could hear us but he's been frozen in that same position so i don't think he's uh uh, is a wifi is acting up or something, but yeah, unfortunately we've, we've lost Rob. So we don't get his, uh, wonderful insights. I, man, that's, that's been a frustration in the last, uh, you know,

several shows is we will occasionally lose Rob and, and I really like his input on these topics topics but we'll have to yeah uh unfortunately he he's kind of in a tenuous situation because he doesn't want to screw it up if you know he does something and it messes up the recording or something but ah i get it yeah well any other uh i guess big pros or cons to targeting rare species that you can think of that we didn't discuss yet? I think go for it all, you know, go for it all. Get out there. It doesn't matter what you're targeting, I guess. Doesn't matter. Do research. If you really want to find a certain species, do your research. You

know, it doesn't hurt to ask people, know don't don't expect people to give you exact locations and spots but yeah you know i'm always open to give people tips and stuff like that and uh but far as you know going out just go out and enjoy it have fun yeah you know whatever you find should always be awesome you know right yeah i think a lot of times we kind of have that bias where oh i've seen this snake in this area so that's that's the place i'm going to spend my time because i know they're found there and if i've only found one or something maybe i'll spend more time in that area and uh other times like i've seen 10 15 of them it's time to move to a new spot and try to find

them somewhere else so yeah i'm not just uh doing the same old thing so i don't know i think it is kind of a cool thing to get adventurous and get kind of but you've got to put in the time beforehand to see those 10 or 20 year old yeah my big thing right now is new ranges you know trying to find new ranges for certain species and i think that'd be cool you know yeah some new ranges for sure right i think that's kind of the progression right after you get get used to finding them in a certain area you're like i want to see these in a different area i want to try to expand what what is known about these and i think that's kind of where it gets challenging and exciting and things like that so yeah, yeah, it's a lot of fun.

But other than that, no, that's pretty much all I got is just go out there, have fun. You know, everybody needs to be safe, you know, when you're flipping around. Pay attention for other vehicles, you know. Safety's always first. Right. Yeah, that can be a little sketchy out on the roads at night. Although, you know some roads like where you found the leaf nose are pretty uh long and straight and you can see cars coming

long way away but yeah others are you know if they're windy or blind corners and stuff it can be a little sketchy yeah so be careful out there and also you know if you're flipping rocks make sure you're not just sticking your hands under the rocks in case there's a loot hiding under there and also you know if you're flipping rocks make sure you're not just sticking your hands under the rocks in case there's a loot hiding under there and gives you a nice little bite on the finger or something that would not exactly yeah always always flip it you know be be you know cautious to how you're flipping it you don't want to be sticking your hand all the way under that thing and you know getting a little surprise you never know yeah more than uh you know more than rattlesnakes there's also black widows and scorpions and centipedes and all sorts

of i guess i guess a scorpion would probably be you know or a black widow maybe would probably be the better outcome than a rattlesnake yeah that's true but still not desirable yeah none of it's desirable so yeah just just keep your hands, you know, not quite, you know, more towards the top. Yeah, exactly. I wonder about those kind of the Kevlar or whatever gloves, the bite-proof gloves that a lot of people, you see a lot of people handling. Maybe some of the smaller Venomous, the the hex clad or whatever the bite-proof things uh i wonder how well they'd work but i don't know they're not not much dexterity with those things we we had some we were we were trying to handle a coral snake down in arizona and

this thing was pretty small and uh I spotted it it was its tail was sticking out from underneath like a fallen yucca and so I tailed it you know and I picked it up by the tail just to make sure that it didn't get away or go down a hole or something and so um and then you know we had these gloves and so we were trying to handle it with those gloves. And man, it was it was not very effective. It was very difficult to be because of the small size, you know, and no dexterity in the fingers when they're bite proof. So I guess there's tradeoffs, you know, that kind of thing. But yeah, that's probably shouldn't be handling venomous snakes. It's probably not the best idea anyway.

Probably not the best. I probably not the best i yeah i think we're all guilty of it and you know yeah i guess yeah from time to time i've probably made pretty stupid decisions but yeah i think free handling is definitely off the table but like yeah i've kind of even gotten to the point um where I don't even use my hook as much anymore. Sometimes I don't even take my hook if I'm hiking up. You know, I've gotten so many photos of the species now where I'm just at the point where it's like if it's in the perfect position, I'll get my photo. If it doesn't want to be photographed, well, that's fine. I've gotten photos before, you know.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And then that's when you find like an albino or some kind of. I know, right. That's going to be when I find an albino and I don't have my hook. I'm like, oh, now I got to use this little stick. Exactly. Yeah.

Well, very cool. We appreciate you coming on and discussing this topic. I appreciate it. Thank you guys for inviting me on. That's, you know, I'm glad to be on tonight. So, yeah, yeah, it's great to, to hear some of your experiences and, you know, sharing that excitement of finding a rare species, you know, somewhere where it's not necessarily anticipated to be seen. So very cool. Congratulations. And hopefully we hear back from, you know, you hear back from the editor and you're publishing that you're planning to publish it in her review. I haven't got, I looked today after you told me you heard back, I, from yours, I looked and I still haven't gotten anything. And I think I sent mine the same day as yours, I believe. Right. Yeah. Yeah. yeah yeah i haven't heard nothing maybe maybe he's just i'm sure they're busy getting tons in you know so he might have skipped over mine and go back

and see it later so i'm sure he probably well and the message i got was basically like give us a couple months we'll get back to you so it's not like it's gonna speed it up if i hear from him sooner than later because exactly just keep going to be a couple months. Just keep hitting resend, resend, resend, resend. Yeah. But I've heard Herb journals are notorious for taking quite a while. And I mean, Herb Review is kind of a special, they put together a lot of different, you know, range extension, field observations, those kind of things, which uh, you know, range extension, uh, field observations, those kinds of things, which is, you know, cool, but I'm sure it takes a lot of time and it's

kind of tedious to get everything together and reviewed and stuff like that. So I'm okay to, I, I waited, uh, what, 12 years to, to publish this anyway. So what's another couple months, you know? Exactly. At least the one I'm trying to publish. But yeah, we'll see if it gets through. Very cool. All right.

Well, at the end of the show, we kind of like to maybe ask if you've seen anything cool in the reptile world or seen anything interesting in the last little bit. No, not too much, you know, just, just my personal experiences has seen the leaf nose and stuff. Other than that, no, just always, always love hearing other people's stories of seeing cool stuff though. So yeah. Right. Always keep in mind ears out for that.

I picked up a new field guide. I'm, I'm, uh, it's on the reptiles and amphibians of New Mexico. So I'd like to maybe do a herb trip down there. I'm sure Rob's got one in mind, uh, where we're, we're, we need to find Obscurus and that's about the only place that you're going to find them in the U.S. New Mexico, you said? Uh-huh, without going on private land.

So it would be really cool to add that species or subspecies, I guess, to the list. But yeah, Willard Eye are probably one of my favorite rattlesnakes. They're just really, I really dig that face stripe and the ridge nose that they're named for. New Mexico is high on my list. I really want to go out there for Alternas. Yeah, there's some neat stuff out there for sure. Yeah, it's a good place to herb. So, I don't know.

Hopefully that's in the near future, next couple of years or something. But yeah, I'm, uh, headed to Florida next month, uh, for a cruise, but my wife and I are going a couple of days early so we can, you know, go check out the Everglades, go down the keys, some stuff like that. So Aspen was very kind and gave me some nice advice. So I'm really excited to get out there and see what i can find but yeah yeah he's he's got to ask he he just got back from his successful trip so yeah they found a lot of stuff and then his first trip was really successful too like i think they found like a eastern diamond back within the first you know couple hours of getting there or something it was pretty pretty cool so yeah he's

he's gotten really good stuff out there so hopefully he can give you some good tips and lead you on to some cool stuff too so i'm definitely excited to see when you get back to see if you got any good photos coming up so yeah now it won't be uh quite so uh herp intensive with my wife but she's she's pretty good about going out with me. Actually, she's a really good herping companion. She does pretty well, although I don't know how much she enjoys it, but she sees the enjoyment I get out of it. And so she's she's happy to go along. That's awesome.

So that is awesome. Where can people find you if they want to see, see your, see the things you're doing or the animals you're finding me on Facebook? You know, I got Instagram just under Shane Mattson on Instagram. And, you know, anybody ever want to message me and, you know, get any information, you know, and maybe go out or something. I'm more than willing, you know, as long as I'm free, but yeah, I'm always open. Right on.

Well, thanks again for coming on and we'll, we'll, uh, thank Erica, no one and the NPR crew and, uh, for hosting our show and letting us do this, uh, fun stuff and getting cool people on like Shane. So I appreciate them and we'll, uh, thank you guys. Appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks again for coming on and we'll hope, hopefully have you back, uh, get some more, more good stories out of you. So. Absolutely. All right. Well, thanks for, uh, listening to reptile fight club and we'll catch you again next week for another episode