Reptile Fight Club - Herping in Large vs Small Groups & FL Recap with Aspen Mahan

Episode Date: May 30, 2025

In this episode we talk herping in a small group vs. herping with a large group. We are jouined by Aspen Mahan. We also hit on Rob and Aspen's recent trip to Florida. Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Follow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comIGFollow Rob @ https://www.instagram.com/highplainsherp/Follow MPR Network @FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQSwag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

Hello people, welcome to another episode of Reptile Fight Club. It's me, your friendly host Justin Juhlander, and here with me, Rob Stone. How's it going, man? It's me, your friendly host, Justin Julander, and here with me, Rob Stone. How's it going, man? It's awesome. Just got back the other night and yeah, chat through it. And we're joined tonight by my humble companion on the trip, Mr. Aspen Mahan. Hello to all. An old favorite on the podcast for sure.

Glad to have you back and talking about another trip. Always good to be here. Yeah, yeah. So I'm glad to have you. Yeah, tonight we're going to be kind of talking about your trip a bit and getting into that of it and then maybe talking if we have time, but get a little fight in there about group sizes because you guys just had a fairly small group. Nice cozy group.

So yeah. How's stuff going? You miss any clutches while you're away or you had some hatchlings, didn't you? I missed something. I definitely missed something. Yeah, I'd had some scrub eggs in the incubator and before I left, I was looking at them. They're getting all dimpled in and starting to breathe heavy and I thought, just hold off for four days. You can hold off. Don't hatch. And sure enough, a day after we left, they started poking their heads out.

Of course. Did they at least have the decency to wait for you to get back before they made their their full way out? One did. One did. One did. That'll be your favorite. That'll be your hold back. He unfortunately didn't make it. Oh, shoot. He had pretty bad deformities. That was keeping him in the egg. Yeah. Yeah. I guess there's usually a reason if they take too long. Yeah, three or four days in there. Yeah. Yeah. So how many did you get? Seven out of the eight. So pretty good. Yeah. And do you want to tell what species they are? Are you holding that? Yeah, no, they're sarongs. Sarongs, scrubs.

They're sarongs, scrubs. Yep. And yeah. Oh, I'm definitely holding on to them. We'll see what they turn into. Yeah. Very cool. Oh, that's awesome. Congratulations. Exciting. You got those right before our Australia trip. So yes, they landed about a not that long before. Yeah. I guess they landed a little while before. Yeah. It was pretty close. So yeah. Well, that means my black-headed python eggs should be hatching soon because they got laid during the trip. So I think I'm about a week or maybe two behind you. So they're starting to dent in and they still look okay. So hopefully I kind of felt them today and they felt like they were getting a little weaker, like the kind of feel that you get.

We get the little squishy feel to them. Yeah. Yep. So hopefully, hopefully they're going to hatch and, man, I'm up to 11 clutches that I've that I've caught. I think I had one clutch where she didn't wrap them. It was a pygmy python, unfortunately, but she just spread them around the cage. And so that was kind of a bummer. And then unfortunately, but she just spread them around the cage. And so that was kind of a bummer. And then that California King laid again, I bred her this year and I didn't think she was graffit. And all of a sudden I'm like, what is that?

Cause I fed her a couple nights ago and I'm looking in the cage. I'm like, what is that? I'm like, oh, it's desiccated eggs. Awesome. So it's kind of a bummer. She's caught you off guard, isn't it? Well, no, I was ready for the first clutch. I mean, I saw she was

pretty thick and I'm like, oh, she grabbed it. So I put it in a nest box, but this time she didn't look that gravid. And so I didn't put in the nest box. I should have just kept it in there. I thought about it. Like, I just put it in because I did pair the spring, but stupid, you know, you just got to trust the natives that they're going to abide. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, this year has killed a lot of stuff, so I'm not too sad that I maybe missed a clutch or two, but yeah, 11 clutches and I'm kind of a small scale breeder anyway, so this is going to push the limits a little bit. But yeah, all the four Antaresia now, I got Children's Eggs and Spotted Eggs and then both Eastern and Western Stimpsons as well as two localities of Western Stimpsons. And these are like third generation captive bred Western Stimps, so like wee belts and brooms. And

they should be really nice. I'm excited. It's kind of my striped line of wheat belts. They're kind of cool looking. So I'm excited to see what comes out of this clutch. And then it was a first time female, she laid a pretty good clutch and then stellar hold back Eastern stim. That's just gorgeous. She laid so. So that should be cool. And still waiting on a Woma clutch and she's getting bigger and bigger. I thought she would have laid by now. So I'm a little, I'm hoping that there's no complications but yeah, she's looking big.

And then, but I mean, she just shed a couple of weeks ago. So she's still got a little bit of time. And then the, I think I have another pygmy that's going to lay as well. So it could be 13, maybe 14 clutches, which is way too many for me. So help me out. Yeah, exactly. Is that how many he's got? He's up to about 40 clutches. Yeah. Oh man. Well, yeah, it should be a fun year though.

Lots of good stuff. Got a clutch of Inlands last week and that was exciting. Can't be too mad about an Inland clutch. I think we talked about it where she wrapped around the other female and not around the eggs. And I like I caught him closely, you know, soon after she laid him. So that was good. But it's like, what are you doing? So anyway. All right, how about you guys? You got anything exciting going on with your collections or is it mainly just

aside from the scrubs of course? But are we ready? Outside of the scrubs, most everything's pretty calm over here. Still got some baby king rats. Oh yeah. Trying to decide if I want to hang on to those or let them go. Outside of that, not much is happening.

Big angry snakes for Aspen. Yeah. Yeah. There's a theme there. Yeah. I guess I shouldn't talk out of turn. I don't know much about king rats and I've never kept Scrubb. So, yeah, I guess that's kind of the public image they have. But you never know. Maybe there's some sweethearts out there. Yeah, sweethearts thinking goddesses, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know which I'd prefer a bite or a squeeze from one of those.

They're both about as fun as you think. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know. Very cool snakes for sure. That's cool. All right. Well, we dive in then. You guys ready to talk about the trip a bit? Okay. I'll turn it over to you guys. So you were in Northern Florida? Central and Northern Florida. Yeah. And really the ideation, at least on my end for the trip was to try and see one of the main targets on the last trip which was October of 23 was a simus, a southern hognose snake. Generally speaking, people talk about them in the context of going in October. It's in the context of babies emerging is basically the idea there where they're hatching between the end of September and the first and second week of October.

And so there are a lot of, as Bob Zappal already said, the little dum-dums are up and trying to figure out what's going on. So yeah, that's sort of the hogtober thing. And I thought, well, pretty clearly, right, that's not the only seasonality. Again, in the construct of the Herper ideas, saying, okay, do we want to follow the idea or is there a natural corollary to that idea that maybe makes more sense and doesn't have quite as much pressure and incentive around it? Additionally, I guess one challenge associated just sort of with the way it's presented is that most simus are road cruised and as you know road cruising isn't necessarily my favorite, all that

much more so when we're talking about dirt roads which is sort of the primary habitat type or at least you know that's what's in the habitat surrounding the habitat that they exist in. So I thought I'd have a better chance of hiking up an adult in the emergence, you know, leading into the season. So that was basically the ideation for the trip. And then it was, well, it's not all that far to try and hit a cane break. It's not the easiest spot to find them, right? It's the far southern extent. When you're far north, you're at the far southern extent of their range. There are certainly other

places where maybe even they look prettier. They're certainly easier to find, those sorts of things. But it was, so it was really a simous trip from my perspective, plus came breaks plus then there's so basically, it really reminds me of the pine barrens where within that sand hill habitat everything is relatively difficult which makes everything special right so they all the things are cool these pine snakes, short-tail snakes, eastern diamondbacks so all these really cool snakes that are out there. So densities are low. We got lucky with the weather though compared to the one we had gone on October 23.

So yeah, I'd invited the usual cast and crew, yourself included. Maybe this will come to the sort of the fight topic at some point. I invited folks and everyone sort of mixed levels of interest some point, is invited folks and everyone's sort of mixed levels of interest availability, all those things, which always makes sense, right? And then everyone's telling me no or maybe, and I was like, no, I'd like to go with his Aspen. And so I had reached out to him. And fortunately, he was super game right away.

So I really appreciated that. And apparently, he'd actually put the kibosh himself on going to the Pine Barrens to go fishing with Keith, Lindsay and Chris and all this stuff to be able to go. But I'll leave that to him. So anyway, that's sort of the genesis of it from my perspective was saying, hey, I want to go find a Simon's came break if we can And then all the other stuff there is cool, but trying to do it AC or You know on the opposite season alley from when most folks are going out So you're not kind of facing that additional struggle and it seemed to make more sense relative to hiking something up some sure

cool Yeah, so yeah, where'd you guys meet up or when? So we both flew out individually, Rob, obviously from Colorado and I from Utah, and we met up there in the airport in Orlando. Okay. And pretty much hit the ground running from taking that early morning flight, you know how these hurt trips usually go. You land and you crush a monster or Red Bull and then you hit the road, you know.

It's a bit of a hoof to get up to that area from the airport. So we had some driving to do. Kind of like Rob said, luckily he invited me and pretty much everything that was on his list was still on my list to see. I've done that area two other times now and kind of missed all those big targets like Rob was saying. Missed Simas, Miss Pines, missed all the good stuff. So yeah. What number of trip is this for you to Florida? This is my third Florida trip. Okay. Yeah. You've had some pretty successful trips out there too, right?

Yeah. I've been very lucky, very lucky in catching the right season, the right weather, and the right place at the right time. Nice. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. Though your trips have always impressed me because so my Florida experience, I guess I've been three times too, but one of them was to a very specific place specifically for Eastern Diamondbacks to try. So that was sort of the intermediate trip, what, February of last year. So that was a quick one with Owen. He had another small group one.

That was just Owen and I, and then we met some locals, turned it up. And so that was good. But yeah, Aspen's strips to Florida always impressed me just with this breadth of species and the quantities that he's turning up and all these things. Whereas my Florida experience has been I'm finding the thing and save for racers, you know, save for racers. I find that thing and nothing else. Yeah. Yeah. I think generally I tend to take the shotgun approach where you shoot the whole spread and you spend a day here or two days here and then you jump and move to the next spot, move to the next spot, which can work really good when you're going for numbers or you

really want to cover the whole area. But kind of like Ravel pointed to is you don't have a lot of time when you really want to cover the whole area. But kind of like Ravel pointed to, is you don't have a lot of time when you really want to hit that main target. So this was, I think, probably one of my first trips where it was like just one focus spot for the most part. Yeah. And it worked out. Cool.

All right, well, let's hear about it. Well, and I would say to that too, right, Justin, you and I have talked through that because we have our own preferences on there. So maybe the stuff that Aspen has more generally done aligns with sort of your grand voyages. Well, with that said, our last Utah trip covered a lot of ground too, because last Utah trip covered a lot of ground too. We started in the Moab area, went down to Grand Canyon. We started in Vegas, went to the Grand Canyon, went back to Vegas. The giant loop. I think you've had a few of those as well. Oh, sure. Well, yeah, even when we went to Queensland in 23, no, 22, yeah, it was the same sort

of deal, right? We flew into Brisbane and then went all the way up to Byfield and that sort of stuff. So yeah, that was the same. I think I drove 10 hours or whatever, but it was kind of, okay, you go as far as you're going and then you work your way back. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's definitely good to both styles for sure.

So the concentrated trip this time picked a certain area and her bag. Yeah, like two certain areas. Yeah. And that was basically it. And were you going back to the same spot, same hikes, or was it pretty much? Yeah. So both of the spots, and Aspen, you can detail more from where it fit into your trip. But yeah, certainly the two spots that were kind of the concentrations were places that we had gone in on our first trip

in October 23. Okay. And just known for the target species you were after. So yeah, I mean, it's the Sandhill Habitat. So it's the high points of sort of ancestral Florida, basically. habitat, so it's the high points of sort of ancestral Florida, basically. And yeah, you would recognize it relative to New Jersey stuff that is done. It feels very similar. Obviously, the saw palmetto is a different addition to the assemblage, but other than that, you would just say, okay, yeah, this feels very similar. All the way up to the ticks. I was just going to ask.

The triggers and ticks. So I think, yeah, that can be the little sideshow for, I think, yeah, I was seeing with different species at the different places. I definitely, one place wound up being heavy triggers, which is exciting. We can go back into what that means. The other was heavy ticks. Okay. You still itching?

Oh, yes. Certainly. There are some rashes. Has anybody tried bug spray yet? I personally- I've been a lot better than I did. I personally, after my first tick experience in the East area, East coast area, I immediately went out and bought for methrin. This is a whole other fight club topic, but chemicals versus non-chemicals.

Personally, I'm open to chemicals. If it means I don't have to dig ticks out of crevices, I didn't know I had. It works quite well. Okay. You just put it on your ankles and boots and pants or you rub it in your crack and stuff? You'll treat your clothes. So you spray it on your clothes, let them dry out and then your clothes stay treated

for I think it's supposed to be like 60 washes and they'll just fall right off of you. I mean, every once in a while I'd find one crawling on me, but every night I didn't find any on my skin. Nice. So it works. Did it work for the chiggers as well? Around my ankles they got in, but everything else was okay. Okay. So no deed or anything around the ankles?

Nothing like that? Nope. I think we're going to have to try that in Pennsylvania. I just really don't want to be scratching my feet and ankles for the next month or two afterwards. So yeah, I'll still be scratching from now. So what's, what's a few more bites, right? What's a few more for fun. Yeah.

Well, in, in, uh, New Zealand, they talk about the sand fleas and they're kind of like chiggers or like, well, I guess they're larger and, but, uh, they'll bite you and fly away and stuff but yeah those were miserable itchy bites but they say if you get like a thousand or ten thousand sand flea bites then it doesn't affect you anymore so i'm wondering if that's there's something with that with chiggers as well yeah but like locals don't really have that reaction to the sand flea bites like tourists do. So I don't know if that's true or not. You just see like I just saw some poster

on a wall in a shop and I'm like, hmm, I wonder if that's true. You know, maybe like this guy that's injecting himself with all the snake venom that's been on the news lately. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of crazy. Yeah. All right. So ticks and chiggers are plenty. And how about the herbs? Yeah, it's kind of crazy. Yeah. All right.

So ticks and chiggers are plenty and how about the herbs? Yeah, so what the first day went to North Florida, I'd call it, and a spot that we've been before, cruised for a bit, which is sort of what, as I say, the paradigm of Florida, it's interesting Is really seemingly the cult or I should say the culture is Road cruising. Yeah That's that's very strongly the culture and I suppose that makes some sense, right? It's hot and humid and those sorts of things even on these days that weren't all that terrible I mean we were talking on our high points were in the mid 80s, maybe upper 80s, something

like that. But at that humidity, it's sort of interesting, right? Because we're all mountain state folk that it can be much cooler ambient, particularly shade temperature, but the sun being so much closer makes a profound impact. So we'll feel that heat, but we don't have the humidity. The relative combination of that temperature with the high relative humidity, apparently what our buddy KJ, who's down there, said that he basically is willing to hike between October and the end of February or something like that. Yeah, end of winter.

Otherwise, it's just too miserable. Yeah, just sort winter. Otherwise, it's just too miserable. Yeah, just sort of sad. And honestly, for me, I didn't find it to be that bad. But as you guys know, I don't mind, you know, expect to come out of the day sort of wore out and soaked. So, how about the flying like the mosquitoes and the other annoying flying insects? Those weren't bad. They're too.

In October, it seemed like on that first trip in October and then when I went with Del in February, I think it's just spots and how much standing water there is makes a big difference and how close you are to that. The Sandhill stuff is there's water around but it's not on water. We did go look for neurodeus. The curse of you can't find what should be common came through. And there definitely were more. Well, we can get to that. But other than that, you're not that near to water. So we saw some but I probably maybe had two or three bites the whole time and we weren't

running the... What was the thing that Phil had got? The... Yeah. probably maybe had two or three bytes the whole time and we weren't running the, what was the thing that Phil had got? The disc thing that pushes out the little packet that you heated up. I didn't bring it and didn't use it and there was no time where I thought, man, I should have done that. So I think that's, I don't think it's that they're not out now. I think it must be that what we were looking for isn't right by water.

So we weren't trying to... Sure. Yeah. Okay. Sorry. Day one. Go ahead, Aspen. Yeah.

Day one. So we go to that spot and we pretty much hit it hard. We started running. And it's surprising to me, like Rob said, being desert or mountain people, we're used to ideal conditions in our mind. Mid-80s, early afternoon, you just had a little bit of rain, it should be phenomenal. And we were not turning much up. We were looking in all the right spots, I feel like. We were, we put in the miles, that's for sure on that day.

You always do with Rob. Well, I don't know. You can't, I don't know if you have room to talk. Yeah, you always do with me too. By the time we got back to the car at the end of that day, maybe it was just the jet lag, but I think we were both feeling it.

My ankles, my hips were all locked up with not a lot to show for it, unfortunately, on that first day. Right. You turn up in the morning. Bugs were good. You see? Some cool bugs. Okay.

Yeah. And I think, so there were sort of the ubiquitous fence lizards, six-signed race runners. So we're seeing some, which again, just sort of promoted the, you know, where are the snakes? We're not missing these. Also, a ton of, yeah, as Aspen was saying, the bugs, there were really cool caterpillars that he had then keyed out. One of them, what? The caterpillar, the echo moth,

very brightly colored, red, long sort of spikes, all this stuff seemingly can actually pick them up or whatever. Oh, if you're sensitive, if you're super sensitive, then maybe it'll irritate your skin a little bit, but they're actually not bad, but they have this aposematic coloration for sure that, and they're just scooting about. Obviously they think it works because they're, or it must work because they're just all over the place. Yeah. And if it's in that box though of saying, okay, well, this is giving us the feedback that we're seeing these things. So I don't think we're just in that space that we see

with the peeds in West Texas, right? Where it's like, well, I'm not missing a three-foot snake if I'm seeing a two-inch caterpillar. Yeah. Right. Well, unless they're brightly colored and they stand out like a sore thumb, but maybe. Well, that was these Echomoths. I don't know if it's just coincidence, but they were very similar pattern to what you would expect a coral snake. They had that red, yellow, black ring. I don't know if it's a mimicry thing or if it's just coincidence, but we saw quite a

few of them, like Rob was saying between those the fence lizards and the anoles they kind of kept us entertained but yeah, we were kind of hoping for more on that first day. That evening we went out cruising. I'm right with Rob on I prefer to walk stuff up but if I have to cruise it then I will. So we went out road cruising for cane breaks. And same thing, it felt really good. Dents held for a good while after dark. And we cruise that late evening into late evening,

early evening into late evening. And we got what, two ribbons and some Southern toads. And we kept stopping for every stupid rock and knob in the road thinking this is one that was something right. You're not seeing it. And it never was. Yeah. It creates the impression of, okay, it's something wrong with my search. And so everything is then seemingly something as opposed to, yeah, when you see something, then you're like, and sort of the way that happens viscerally, say like, oh, I recognize that as a snake instantly.

Yeah. It's there's just not something that I, it's not that you're not seeing it. It's just not there to see. Just not there. Yeah. Yep. I know that. That was definitely a common theme for our road cruising.

Yeah. In general. It's not for a lot of the same stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Especially when you wind not for a lot of the same stuff. Yeah. Yeah, especially when you wind up covering a lot of the same areas sort of repetitively. It's like, wow, that's the sixth time

that I've been fooled by that whatever. Yeah. And then sometimes you then, okay, I actually have to move at this time just to put an end to this. Right, same thing in the West Max. We kept like stopping for the same thing. It's like, oh, that's that grass clump again. And there's that stick in the road. Yeah. Know how that goes. Absolutely. One other fun bit is that associated with this. So the,

again, it's dirt cruising. So I'd gone for the sort of light pickup was the idea, four-wheel drive but light pickup. So we'd gone to the rental spot and say, you know, no worries or whatever, okay, pick it up in spot XYZ. And we go out there and this is all in the Orlando parking garages, which are very tight spaces. And I expected to see something like what Nissan Frontier something like that so this you know real light like a What to comb I read the Tundra is the big one. That's a common small one

that that was what I was sort of something in that vein and They had decided that no, you know what we have available is a Dodge Ram Big Horn 2500. Oh, god. It was a monster. The last thing you want for that area. You're getting out of the parking spot. Within the tight confines, that rental car, they're maximizing space. Those spaces are so small that this thing legitimately fills to the lines on the

side of the parking space. You're going to have to get out so that I get it. I sprung for the comprehensive just to not get into it. As is always my want, it's like, okay, I don't want to be argued. We saw it with Phil when we had gone to West Texas with he and Smitty in 21, 21, I think June 21. And there was, he wound up fighting him about one ding for like six months. Okay, I'll pay the money just to not be having this conversation. That being said, I still didn't want to like smash into another car. Sure.

Um, that being said, I still didn't want to like smash into another car. Sure. Yeah. I was like, you gotta get out to a good start. Tell me like, if I can, you know, am I good? Am I not good? What's going on? I think I had to, yeah, I'm Austin power using it just to get the car out of there. Yeah.

That's funny. So how was it cruising in that monster? It turns like the Titanic. Yeah. Yeah. Hard to flip around. There was no turning. You just. Was it cruising in that monster? It turns like the Titanic. Yeah. Yeah. Hard to flip around. There was no turning.

You just reverse. You had to back up. You were going one direction or the other. There was no circulation to the movement at all. Oh man. That's rough. As long as the backup camera is pretty good, you're all right. When it's not covered in dust, it's right.

Yeah. That's the hard thing is you start reversing, you're reversing into a cloud of dust a lot of times. So, yeah. Well, hopefully Aspen ran back or whatever. So we did have one of those actually where we passed it, but we'll get there. But yeah, yeah, day two, we went back to that same spot, confidence in the ideation, right? We've been through that before of like, okay, do you stick with what you're

doing or do you lose the faith or whatever? But now it was like, this is the place, this is what we're doing. Went back there, got there early in the morning, cruised for a pass or two. And then it was like, okay, we gotta hike this out. And then as we're doing that, so Aspen and I are working through this stuff, and I'm like, man, I don't wanna, and it was the weekend. So there's a ton of activity going on that road that there probably isn't during the week.

And it was like, I don't wanna find something hit. That's even worse, right? We've done passes, we know it's clean. So if anything's dead, coming off the backside of this, we'll know there'll be some of that if I'd kept going, or if we've been out there cruising, then maybe that's the difference. So I said, Aspen, you keep walking. I'm going to go cruises for an hour and see what's going on. Did that. And it's a no effect beyond stopping for the same grass clumps and the same pieces of cord and all of that. But Aspen did turn up, hike up a snake then, shortly after I'd come back.

Right? Yeah. You'd just gotten back. You'd just gotten back from passing through and neither of us had seen anything at this point. And I think Rob got a call from his wife. So he was talking to his wife for a minute and I walked maybe 30, 40 yards in a different direction. And I'd been flipping logs, you know, hoping to find a coral or something under one of these logs. And I go to flip the next log. And you know how your brain sees something before your

eyes see it right and my brain's like hold up don't flip that log and of course there's a little pygmy rattlesnake coiled up just sitting right on top of that log it's like called over to Rob hey got a pygmy come over and we photographed that for a little bit so that was uh that was a what we took as a good indicator because we'd just seen a good rainstorm come through the night before. And he was sitting like he was in a rain collecting position or possibly ambush. But the fact that he was out was what I would have called a good sign.

For sure. We were kind of pumped. We're like, all right, it's going to be good now. And you've both seen those before? Yeah. Seen them, but I've never hiked one up. So that was a new thing for me. Nice.

Yeah. So that was awesome. And that was kind of seated in the shade or partial shade. Yeah, it was in pretty dappled white. Very cool. So we took some photos of that? Yeah. Yeah. That then you go-

That was kind of what we were expecting to see in my mind when I think of a hognose in that kind of patchy forest, sand hill area. I expect to see them on the crawl in leaf litter in the dappled light, in those little groves. And so that's what I was primarily focusing on. But at the same time, we're looking for pines. So I'm kind of walking in the open area, checking every tortoise burrow. Maybe there's a snake track. I can follow it. We saw a couple of tortoises. Yeah, very few. We didn't see many in that area, actually. Now, I think about that's what we were confused about is we couldn't figure

out why we weren't seeing tortoises. And this is a protected area where you'd expect to see them pretty common And you saw it sounds like a bunch of burrows and yeah, okay Burrows with activity. Yeah, no tortoises. Just not out just not just not out Which is very strange because it felt like well and part of it Right is maybe the discrepancy in habitat site between the Utah stuff. Well, what we were thinking was, okay, we're in this space where they have so many good days that I guess they can deem this to be moderate to mediocre to poor, even though

it seems great. But then I would say that we were in basically functionally the same conditions when we come a bit further south on the back half of the trip and the tortoises were all out and all over the place. So it made it even more confusing for me of saying, why weren't those tortoises out those first couple of days? Yeah. Yeah. So we've been discussing all this and this area is quite large.

It's a large area of land. So we kind of split up and did the tag team thing. You know, you cover this area, I'll cover this area. And it was probably two to 30 in the afternoon, I get a phone call from Rob, he's kind of got this quiet calm voice and he goes, Hey, I'm gonna send you a pin. I just need you to come to me. Okay. And hang up. And I thought in my mind, either he's just snapped his leg in half and is trying to remain calm or he found a target. So he sends me this picture of the map and his maps are slightly different from mine.

He orientates his north to south and the photo of the map was slightly off from what I was using. So I'm looking at this dot where he's looking at and I ran like three quarters of a mile in the wrong direction. But I'm trying to get my way back to, you'd think I know how to read a map, but clearly I cannot. And finally I find him and get to him and I'll let him carry on from here. Yeah, so I had tried to send him a picture of what it was that I was looking at. And then, of course, just be in the context, to amplify the uncertainty. It didn't go through or it didn't go through for a while. So before he got into me, he did get to see what it was, which was and exactly to the point that Aspen was making in terms of relative

to search image. We talked about this a lot with Willard Eye of saying, okay, are these super montane? I know then there's sort of in the Canelo Hills, it's sort of a different presentation than other places. They are other places and whatever, but when you found the first two that were sitting there going like, oh, well, yeah, they blend with what this looks like, as opposed to sitting in some sort of madri and evergreen habitat or something like that. In this same way, I'd gone a long way to a spot that I'd liked. I had failed.

I had taken Aspen the day before on a death march trying to find a particular spot where when I went with Eric and Nipper and Phil, I had seen what I guess their pocket gopher burrows. You get these piles that are them having displaced the dirt and sand, dirt, sand, whatever. I thought it was near to a piece of structure. Then I couldn't even find the structure. None of this was where I thought it would be. Meanwhile, we're putting in certainly extra Ks Ks if not miles for me trying to figure

it out based on the map and all this stuff, all the while seeing nothing, getting roasted out and all this stuff. And walking on super loose sand, which is always hard. I was going to go look. I wasn't going to bring him because I didn't want to feel that much worse about it. When you're trying to find what you have in your mind, it's all that much worse when you're putting someone else through it. So instead of just, well, if it's just you, you're just trying to make it work. So I was off doing that. And then it had come to the point, as is so often the case of like functionally,

let's call it at least for today, it wasn't gonna be a total kill on that spot if the answer had been that we failed. Hey, we'll try for the morning, but I was actually emotionally preparing myself for writing this off saying, well, I guess, Simon, it's gonna happen, strip, we're gonna, here we go again,

gotta spin the wheel and do it. Again, I think we're in the right place. But yeah, came through a little stand of a very little stand of sort of old habitat, not necessarily even sort of longleaf pine, right? It was other other assemblage that then produces a lot of leaf litter. And, you litter. I'm just intending to bust through and I'd say two steps in and despite blending in perfectly with that leaf litter, so the Southern Agneau's back coloration certainly, that's what it's doing. Despite that, it was a no doubt and there it is. Right there.

Just as I'd written it off. But probably a two-foot female, certainly not gravid at this point. So it was in good condition, but probably tough to say whether they had enough reserves to reproduce this year or if they're biannual in that context or not. But I mean, good looking, but you wouldn't look at it and say, oh, that thing's sitting on huge follicles or whatever, which it might be if it was going to go this year. Right.

Very cool. That's awesome. So target acquired and celebrations all around. All fist bumps and high fives. By the time Aspen made it. Good news, bad news is that so I fortunately given the constraints or lack thereof in the habitat it froze it actually did things sort of that rough green snakes can do too where when it it first saw me, it moved it sort of inch forward an

inch, did the forward and back sort of movement. The chameleon. Two or three times. Yeah, exactly right. It did that and then it stopped moving because I both wasn't coming closer and nothing. It was like, okay, well, I'm just going to stay solid here. And so then I proceeded to lay down in the leaf litter and just stare at it for 10 minutes It was like, okay, well, I'm just going to stay solid here. Then I proceeded to lay down in the leaf litter and just stare at it for 10 minutes from two

feet away. Yeah, that was really, really cool, as I say, especially coming off the effort that had gone into it and the sort of, I think for the most part, people don't find them this way. That's not to say they can't, you know, but just sort of with the way that they're doing it. That it was like, yeah, really trying to take the time to enjoy it. I took some photos, you know, I took the immediate voucher shot to send them, you know, and then

yeah, playing with it with the camera, but also simultaneously just sort of trying to take that message of enjoying the moment as opposed to recording what Ben Aspen and I retroactively heard. So we listened to Nick and Ryan talking about their trip, right? Nick in prototype fashion was talking about people recording stuff that they're never going to recording so that they'll never watch but they're all watching it through this mediated lens of the camera and all this stuff that, you know, trying to really be fully present. Right.

Yeah. So it was, it was awesome. And then, you know, kind of after I'd had all this time to process it, Aspen A knows what is coming and, you know, gets over it. It's like, then we get the high fives and then, yeah, it was really good. That's awesome. Yeah. Part that stings for me is I had walked this exact stand maybe an hour before kind of bobbing

a weave and inside of it and worked my way to another edge of this area. And obviously I completely missed it or hadn't crossed that section yet. It's like I was just here. Right place, wrong time. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And were you taking, which approach were you taking? I mean, Rob, were you hustling through or were you taking your time?

I was not, I had fully written off. I wasn't going to see it, you know, whatever. It was just hustling through and not, you know, Aspen's talking about winding his way through the stand. I was, you know, shortest distance between two lines, you know, is, you know, straight, straight ahead. And it was within two steps of being into that sort of leaf litter, being into that stand. And then you're out of it almost as quickly, but it was just like boom, boom, just, I can't even highlight how despite it perfectly matching

the background, it stood out immediately and instantly both as a snake and as that snake. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, you learned your lesson with the last hog nose, right? He didn't pass by. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. I was going to say that Aspen learned his lesson, learned the lesson of what hog nose will do eventually here. So yeah, we started taking some pictures, trying to work through it. And this was actually very accommodating compared to Easterns, my experience with Easterns. But eventually it had reached enough, and I told them, well, yeah, Aspen, go ahead. Yeah. So we're just, you know, like Rob said, moving around, kind of posing it up for shots. And I wanted to put it back on the leaf litter and kind of get a leaf litter shot. Rob said, just so you know, I'm like, my life for Easter never feigned on me.

It was totally a gate for us and everything never died. The moment we went to pick it up and move it, it had enough and it started writhing, flips upside down and squeezes, opens the mouth. And I'm like, ah, that's all right. I'll flip it back over. And Rob's like, no, it's going to be a minute. Which by this moment, like Rob said, we had already got plenty of good shots. I was pretty happy with it. So we started to step back. Rob suggested we probably better hang out for a second. Its belly glows white and it could be a big target for a bird.

So we hung back and watched it for what Rob, maybe five or 10 minutes. Right. I mean, in this time where, you know, I certainly was at least genuinely five minutes, but it feels like 10 to 15. Yeah. Where you're just like, and the patience of these things, but again, putting themselves at risk. So we'd move it back, you know, certainly back into shade, kind of undercover. And then it was like, but it was still perceiving us with when we were within even eight feet or so. So it was like, but it was still perceiving us when we were within even eight feet or so. It was like, okay, let's get on the other side of this tree and we'll stand here and

watch it and wait till it turns over. You'd see him slowly start to peek his head up and give the eyeball. Is anybody around me? Once he was pretty well satisfied, he just flipped over like a little burger patty. Did he just sit there again or take off or what was the? We pretty much left him. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. You said, okay. Yeah. You do your thing, whatever that looks like. Functionally, it was exactly where we had started. Right. Yeah. So it was all good. That's awesome. Oh, how exciting.

Yeah. I saw that picture. I'm like, yep, I knew I was going to be jealous about something on that trip. That's definitely a nice looking snake. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're gorgeous. Cool. Yeah. As I say, kind of between the Western and Eastern, in my experience, again, didn't necessarily

align. Aspen just had a super accommodating Eastern because Horace was very willing to die and took a long, I mean, man, it was really putting me through my paces to get those pictures for the one that we found in Jersey, or Eric found in Jersey. But whereas the Westerns for the most part, they might puff their throat at you and stuff. And certainly this one was doing that too. What I think even by the end, it tried to take, it took a few swipes, you know? So yeah, before it died, it took like the Cobra move. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. It went through the whole deal.

Did that encourage you that stuff was out now and you should continue looking or was it like, okay, we found a target, you know, time to do something else? continue looking or was it like, okay, we found a target, time to do something else? Well, it was even hotter at that point. It had just continually gotten hotter. In the shade there, it felt okay. That was when we were hanging out with it and stuff, we were in that dappled to shade. But at that point, it was like, I think we're pretty done. It feels pretty done.

We were not close to the vehicle. So yeah, it was probably solidly at least a mile and a half, two miles to get back there. Didn't see anything during that context, even again, being in habitat and whatever. We did cruise it out, saw further nothing, stopping for the same things again. And we had a plan, you know, we wanted to go back to try and find canes, cruise canes and stuff. And it seems like this time of year, especially maybe they're running earlier. So it was like, we kind of, it wasn't a, oh, you're quitting.

It was no, we're transitioning to this next thing. Cool. Yep. Yeah. I did forget to mention, I did have one coach while we were in there. I did get a coach whip and I called Rob because he stood still for me and I said, Rob, I've got a coach whip. Do you want to come see him before I try and catch him?

And I sent him a little pin and he's like, I am way too far away to make it to you. So I made my attempt and, uh, quite spectacularly failed as most people usually, as was the common theme on this trip, right? We tried a couple of times and never got them in hand. Coach whips are just fast and smart. They are good at what they know how to evade. They're good at that. Coach whips and racers, right? I think maybe you'd seen racers that morning too, which again felt positive relative to seeing snakes, but yeah, it was just kind of okay. It was a different feeling, right? Between a hog nose and a pine snake or something like that and a black racer.

So we went and tried to cruise some more, same place as the night before, looking for a cane break, found what? A long waffled rat snake, a weird, bizarre sort of just snake skeleton from something that would have been two foot long or whatever, but no skin and all that. It was very strange. And the crews then, there's some dirt around there that I wanted to check out. So that was good. It looked super promising. One spot got a bit dodgy. It turned into, hey, let's reverse out of here. You know, kind of correct.

Don't get stuck. Yeah, don't get stuck. Exactly. I suppose that's a funny thing too. One of those tires, I don't know if it was, you guys were talking about saying, oh, maybe it was the tire stem or whatever, but just to add that much additional layer of excitement to the trip, one of those tires started losing air, popped it, had a slow leak which seemed, and we didn't see anything obviously wrong with the tires, so I do think

it was more like the tire stammer somehow, something like installation error, something like that. And yeah, so, but the recommended PSI on those back tires was very high to be running on these sand roads and things, which became even more interesting later. But was it the first night of cruising for Canes or the second night that we saw the quote unquote corn snake? That was the second. Yeah, that's what I thought. So I was driving. We did the, you know, you switch out so nobody got too over killed on driving and it was

my turn to start cruising and we had gone down one of these side roads that run through this cane habitat and I saw an orange blob in my mind. I rode it off. That's not a snake. We'd been talking and kind of distracted. Yeah, we were distracted too. I'm looking at him instead of looking forward, looking at the road. Yeah. And as I kind of have swerved to miss it, just in case it happens,

you know, road cruising, Rob goes, stop, stop, stop, snake. And so I light the brakes up. Of course, you know, you're doing 25, 30 miles an hour on the sand road. So we skid a couple of feet. Rob throws the door open and jumps out. And I'm like, I hope I didn't just kill it. In my mind, I saw the orange. I'm like, that's, yeah, that's a corn snake. Yeah. And I think, so I've been looking at them and I had just looked back at what must have been in sort of that same instant processing moment or whatever. And it wasn't even certainty that it was a snake. Beyond saying, it did certainly have the color of a really beautiful orange corn snake. That was what was in my mind.

I hop out. Yeah, we both hop out. He stops the car. We both hop out. We're looking and thinking it ran one which way or the other. We're coming back thinking, oh, we missed it. I'm like, this seems unlike, right? It's not a black racer.

It's not a coach whip. We're walking back and right by the rear tire, just immediately, wouldn't I hit it, just immediately to the right is this soft Palmetto front that very clearly was what we... So probably the refocus, the swerve and the color all worked in your minds to say... It's a beautiful storm. Yeah. To say, oh, it's absolutely a beautiful three and a half foot corn snake. And whereas if just focused forward, not talking, whatever, you know, time on task task you just be like, yep, not not a snake. Yeah

Gotta love those Yeah, it was one of the more extreme like and committed to the minute. Yeah, right, you know Usually it almost always it's well, it's not gonna be a snake. But you know, that's 99 out of 100, 999 out of a thousand, you know, like fit into that box. This one, man, I really thought it was a snake. He sold me on it. I'd already written it off and he had me sold it was a snake. That's good. Yeah.

Oh yeah. Yeah. No, after that, I think we kind of not too long after that wrote that night off. I think we kind of decided Canes aren't like top of the list. They're probably not active right now. We're not seeing anything else on the road. Let's, let's, let's go back. Yeah. Not seeing dead ones, anything like that. So we decided, Hey, let's not kill ourselves on day two. Let's go back to the Airbnb, get some rest, and hit it hard the next day. Because the next day we were changing locations and moving back a little further down south for new targets.

Okay. Cool. So, yeah. Which are? Drum roll, please. Yeah. We were looking for short-tailed snakes. Were very high on both of our list.

Pine snakes, indigos, if you could ever believe they exist. Yeah, those were kind of all the big taco. Oh, and corals. Diamond, Eastern Diamondbacks and corals. Yeah. Nice. For the most part, you have the same thing both of those places, but where we had moved to, there are no Cymas.

That was the thing as I was working through it the day before was, hey, we could come back here in the morning and route through this way, giving us one last shot had we not seen it. As I'd seen on the previous trip, you reach that point where it's like, if you're abandoning this place, you're abandoning that target for ship. The rest of the stuff is for the most part in both places. But yeah, the Simon's. That's. That's.

Oh, what's going on? Well, technical difficulties. We lost Rob. He is frozen. Well, maybe you can take a take a. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I can take this over from here for the most part. So this again was another area that I had previously hurt as well as you guys.

You may know this area is where you guys got that pine snake. Oh, okay. So I wasn't there, but they got it. Oh, I thought you were there. Oh, no, I missed that one. Where they got it. For better or worse. Yeah.

So we kind of started out doing a little bit of cruising. We weren't quite sure if we were gonna still meet up with our local friend or not, KJ. It was kind of still up in the air, if we were going to still meet up with our local friend or not, KJ. It was kind of still up in the air, but we thought, let's start out and get to it. And I think he reached out to us pretty early on and said, hey, yeah, I'm coming to you guys and I've got something for you. Oh, wow.

Okay. And I'll go ahead and leave that to Rob. Oh, no. Sorry. I skipped a bit, didn't I? I skipped a whole bit. Yeah. So, yeah.

On the front end of that, we had... So we'd gotten down there, kind of got situated. And I was familiar with, yeah, as you say, it was in the area that we had seen the pine snake in 23, which is a little bit atypical for that exact precise area. It was like, hey, we'll cruise a little bit and then let's hike it out. In doing so, we had gone, we're hiking in that area and Aspen had turned. Oh no, it's happening again. were hiking in that area and Aspen had turned. Oh no, it's happening again.

Yeah, just when he starts to get into the good stuff, right? All right, well, I guess I'll pick up until he comes back. Yeah, I totally spaced over this whole bit. So we had stopped to hike around a bit, specifically where his white whale had got away, totally spaced over this whole bit. So we had stopped to hike around a bit specifically where his white whale had got away where he lost his coral snake. So that I had coral snakes on the brain, which I love to find. They're the coolest snakes in the world. Yeah. And you've seen Florida coral, right? Yeah. I've got all three US corals.

That's right. Yeah. You've seen them all. So we're hiking this area kind of split up looking around. We've seen the fence lizards. We're seeing skinks, which I mean, I take skinks as a good sign being coral food. And we're walking along flipping logs, just everything I can do to look for them. And this by the way is the really ticky area. So we're already kind of noticing one or two on our pants. And we're hiking along and I see a good log to flip, very similar to the Pygmy previous. I spot this log and I walk over and I put my hand on it.

I flipped the log, nothing under it. I lower it down and I look four feet in front of me. And there is this gorgeous Eastern diamondback rattlesnake just ambushed up. It looked like she was probably out digesting a meal. She had a little bit of a bowl. Right up against another log, just perfectly sunning herself. So Rob had already kind of wandered off a little bit. So I hollered back to him. He's like, what do you got? Like it's a big Eastern starts marching his way back. Marco, you know how it is. You're dealing with that scrub oak that's, you know, head high. You can't see anything. You could be 10 feet away and not know where you're at. So we came over. I think this is Rob's only his

second live one. Yeah. So he was rightfully so he was He was his nipper might say fizzing He was very excited to use this thing. Yes, he was very cool And I'm always excited. That was my fourth one and it wasn't the biggest one She's probably three and a half three foot. foot, but she was a very good looking snake. Quite a bit of time photographing her. We never bothered her. She stayed perfectly still. I think she twitched her head once when I tried to walk in front of her to get a different angle. Rob was of course laying in the leaves photographing her. About two minutes after

laying in the leaves, he mentions up to me, which I'm behind him. He goes, you know, I already have a tick on both hands. They had immediately just inundated him while he was laying down, just swarmed. Yeah. After this spot, I mean, I was brushing them off of me. He was picking them off of him. Yeah. At one point we had joined up with KJ and I was driving and I could see him in the rear view mirror just picking them off and throwing them out the window. I'm like, oh God. Just be glad he wasn't in the seat in front of you. I remember the fine barrens. I remember the fine barrens.

Oh man. Yeah. So, uh, but really cool, really, really nice looking snake. So we're pretty excited about that. Oh, there he is. Um, now we have an echo. Oh no. Yeah. Well done. Came to cohost and an echo. All right. Welcome back. Oh, maybe not. All right. So that's sweet. I'm glad you guys got an Eastern so quick into your third day, right? Yeah. Yeah. Third day in and hiked up. I don't think a lot of, I could be wrong. I don't hurt out there nearly enough, but I don't think a lot of people hike them up. I think for the most part, they get road crews and that could be because the Floridians like

their road cruising. Yeah. Or it could just be that they're much more cryptic and spend a lot of time in burrows or real deep thickets. Right. You don't see them often. So yeah. Yep.

They've got that pattern for a reason, right? Yeah. Cool. Well've got that pattern for a reason, right? Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Well, that's exciting. A little better shape, but maybe not as tough an area to live in as the islands. Yeah. A little more water. As compared to with Rob's life for Eastern. Yeah, absolutely. Well, in the other part of it, Aspen, did you mention that so you had found it, right? Come over, take a look and all this stuff and it's posted up beautifully

and get the cell phone shot to show that context because for the most part when we were taking these pictures, we're so close that or it either feels contrived, right? With sort of the way that it's set up if you're getting the panoramic situation, but you still don't have the as found, what did it look like to you seeing it context. You get the little cell phone shot and crouching over this log and within 10 or 15 seconds, I have ticks going on both of my hands. Yeah. He mentioned the tick issue.

Yeah. They just instantly, I was like, oh, we're in a very ticky area. I wasn't even, I don't think I was even seated and yet I must have touched and yeah, you get ticks on both hands going. So that was good. Yeah. Yeah. There was quite a few in that area.

Fortunately, at this point, I've been through my immersive therapy. You're loathing or itchiness. The ickiness is kind of gone. The problem is once you find one, they're everywhere. You feel every little tickle and you're like brushing and scratching going, oh god where are Yeah. Immersion therapy. That's what it is. Yeah, exactly right. Yeah. So you go kind of go through it and then it's like, okay, it's not actually,

it's not actually that bad. Um, you know, I mean, it's a lot, but, uh, whereas, you know, coming from a standpoint where we really just don't see those and interact with those on sort of any sort of scale, um, yeah, right, because it's just a whole other level of deal. Obviously, the permethrin made a big difference because aspen wasn't, despite having a couple, wasn't finding the way that I did. Long pants didn't solve the problem. The chemicals.

Yeah. Well, I have been converted to the long pant ideology that only does so much. Yeah. I mean, it probably helps. Not doubting that it helps, but there's still onion around you. It's just then you got to see them, kick them off that way. Right. It didn't seem like the chiggers were there. So I have to assume the chiggers was mostly simus related and the ticks was mostly Diamond

Back and later. But in that kind of those two habitats, one seemed to be triggers and the other was ticks. Okay. So Diamond Back check. Diamond Back check, which is awesome. Was KJ with you at this time or you hadn't met up with him? Not yet, no. Okay, so it's pre-KJ. All right. Pre-KJ. But yeah, so he was like, you know, hey, let's come back to this spot, right? And yeah, he said, oh, I got something for you, you know, takes us over to

this spot. And unfortunately, what he had got had remained there because it was a DOR Extenuata. So he was confident that he could leave it there. It wasn't going to walk away on us. So he took us over to that spot and said, hey, check this thing out. And it was like, well, we knew as soon as we're going back to that spot that it's not going to be that it's not all that good a news because obviously, you know, he called us to him and if it was right, he thought was gonna crawl away. Yeah. Oh, and just for the listener, I admittedly, I had to look this up, but it's lamp repeltis.

It's a king snake. Short tailed snake is what they're called, but related to king snakes. Ish, right? That's sort of where it's at right now. Yeah, that's where it's at. Quite different physiologically in things. I know, so they previously have been categorized differently in things. Certainly in terms of their function and how they sit, they're more similar to a subterranean snake, a Tantilla, something like that in terms of functionality. But yeah, so we got to see that and that was sort of, it was promising in the sense of,

hey, these are up and about and doing stuff, right? Which again is, hey, that's good. Take that as a good tip. On to hood tick. You got it. You got your hood tick. Yeah. I'm counting this. Sorry, Jason.

Yeah. So, um, I forget then did we, so yeah, that was the diamondback. We then gone out and... I think we started cruising. Yeah. There was a bunch of... It all feels good, but there was not all that much going. Did we see anything there before we went to the water?

No. I think that was the last that we saw there. Yeah. Then we'd gone back and hiked around. No, that was the next day. Yeah. We cruised around for a while. This is where I talked about this when we were talking about Florida before.

It's just cruising these dirt roads, as Nipper put it. It's tough on the pile. It takes it out of you. There's a lot of distracting things and you're feeling every bump and it's tough. Ultimately, it was, hey, let's go get an easy win, try and see some neurodia on water and do all that. In prototype Florida fashion, what we found was sociopaths doing amoral things where they're trying to run over, deliberately chasing raccoons in their trucks and they're trying to burn out and do all this stuff.

Just yelling obscenities from the road. Yeah, just strangers about nothing. In Florida fashion. Exactly. It's like the scariest thing in Florida is people. Absolutely true. And we saw that the next night, you know, where it was like we wound up, I had Aspen was driving again and I was like, dude, you got to take this road. Let's get out of here and we'll circle back through or whatever. Because there were just random headlights and I'm like, I'm absolutely not being out here with whoever this is.

I'm just not. So yeah, that was, we saw, we did see you guys, I don't know Aspen, you guys were a little bit ahead of me. So the funny bit was getting down to the water here, there was these irregular rocks where when you stepped on them, half of them, but only half of them would rotate and try and break her angle. And we're down to the water with the gators, you know, that sort of thing. They all look the same, but only half of them will roll when you tap on them.

So I was taking a little bit slow. You guys were, you know, you had busted through but I guess either Aspen, you or KJ had gone down at least once. So then when I went down subsequently I didn't feel so bad. With the big old backpack it was just easy, soft landing, no worries. So all good. But yeah, we saw one green water snake, my life a green water snake.

Looked like it had maybe had a run in with a car previously. It was a little bit wonky, but I mean, they're tough critters too. So it savagely bit itself. I was able to keep it from biting me. So there's blood on it in the pitcher, but you know, that didn't seem to bother it none. It did sit up nicely under the,

you know, we did the collapsible bucket and it sat there and that calmed it down and it did well with that. So that was good to see. It wasn't a second notice that wouldn't go under the bucket. Didn't have to fight it for 10 minutes. It was very accommodating. Yeah. Yeah. It was a good night on the water. I told Rob, I get very distracted when I get close to water because not only am I hurt, I'm a fisherman. Must turtle. Yeah, I baked a must turtle out of the water. I found a yabby.

I still haven't keyed them out. They're the coolest crawfish I've ever seen with these massive like eight inch little thin pincer claws. Oh, cool. They're having a lot of fun. Yeah. But yeah, unfortunately that seemed to be the only snake out and about around the water, which is bizarre for Florida.

Right? You would expect more Nerodea to be out, but yeah, that's the one. Just the one. We saw some gators, which we did get the gators. That fulfilled Aspen's inclination that every time he comes to Florida has to see a gator. I refuse to go home without seeing one in Florida. Right. Very cool. Yeah. That ended day three, right? Day three, yep. Day three ended, went back and rested up for day four.

Which was kind of rinse and repeat, or at least that was the ideation on it. So what? We had come that morning, we're going around and again, conditions seemed promising. We just weren't seeing anything. And of course, as Justin, you'll know this all too well from our Texas Ventures and Things where it's like, there's a, in places where there's a surfer to choice, right? It's, oh, you make a choice and then you kind of have to stick with it. And then we get this feedback. Oh, did you see this

person driving around? It was like, yeah, well, they found a short sale or whatever, this sort of deal. It's on X instead of where you are. You can't get sucked into it. It's good to know. It's encouraging. Yeah, they're on the move. You're in the right place if you find them the dead one. They're there and move. Yeah. And you were in the right, you're in the right place. If you find in the dead one, you know, they're there and they're out. As I get teased often for saying, we know

they're here. Yeah. And along those same lines, I think it was a day after we left the first area that we were in. We got word as well. Oh, by the way, so and so pulled a pine snake from that exact area, like right where you parked at. We're like, are you kidding me? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's just how it works. You just got to try and spend the time there and do it. Yeah. Yeah. It's all you can do when you're herping. Just put yourself in the right place and put in the miles and hope you get lucky. Yeah, like Rob said, it was kind of a rinse and repeat day. We stopped at the same place we did the first day in this area with KJ. Thought, well, let's hike this area again. Let's try and find that Eastern again for KJ and see if we can turn anything up. And I think we found a

few dead turtles and that was about it. There's some old, old turtle shells. Yeah, it seems like they get they when we had seen it in October where we'd seen a soft shell that was like, I don't know, had to be easily a mile from the nearest obvious standing body of water. and it was actually one of them melanistic ones, right? Which was really cool to see. But yeah, it was very, it was odd to see an aquatic turtle where we're looking at it going, I don't know what body of water you went, you have come from or are intending

to go to, right? You're just on the road or whatever. In the same vein with this, it was um, I think they just get I don't know if they get turned around if they get stuck out if they get sort of Interrupted or you know interact with something um, whatever it might be but I'd actually asked them, you know those chicken turtles We'd seen a couple of those at a different place much further south on my last trip where you just find that same deal

The kind of crazy one you had found was the one where it was like the mummified still the skull was intact. It was very odd. Yeah. That's cool. It was flipped upside down like something flipped it around trying to eat it, but everything was still there. Yeah. Very strange.

Crazy. So yeah, there it was kind of a bust. And then we went back to cruising, which we saw outside of that one coach whip. Oh no, we saw a couple of racers. We saw a couple of racers and we saw coach whip, which well, we saw two coach whips. I think the first one got me really excited because it was like a big four foot snake. The one that looks like an indigo. Yeah. You see a big black snake crossing the road.

You start getting excited and then it turns and just blows off the road. And it's like, well, that wasn't an indigo. We know what that was. Yeah. And at a certain point, we and Rob was driving at this point, we had come up and you could see him start crossing the road as we're pulling up to him. At the same time, you can see KJ coming down the road towards us and this coachwhip's coming

out and Rob slows down right as it turns around and I jump out like, I'm going to get this snake. I'm not going to let this, I need to catch one of these coachwhips. He busts into a thicket and I start to surround the area like, okay, he's in here and I'm not seeing him. And I hear some rustling and I look up and about six feet in the air, he is shooting up a tree, which apparently is super common for coachwhips. I've now decided I've just never seen it because St. George doesn't have trees.

But he flew up this tree and how he was probably up there a good 15, 20 feet maybe, and he was not coming down. And he was staring right at us. Yeah, he knew what he was doing. Right. Right. You know, same thing, Justin, you know, be the same thing with yours or whatever, where it's like got it right on him. And he's staring right at me. Yeah. We wrote him off. Yeah. You didn't climb up there. Come on Aspen. Well, I thought about it, but every branch that Rob pulled on snapped. So just like a twig. Right. Yeah. Not the best idea. Didn't seem promising didn't seem promising. And it just seemed like that much likelier. Oh, you get within whatever that distance is. When it's going to go that comfort, it was just going to go higher.

And ultimately you were definitely going to be at a point where you were going to lose. That's fine. Cool. So we, yeah, we, um, kept cruising and, uh and turned up, finally got a good one on the road there and got a, what probably a young of last year, Easton Diamondback. Beautiful in that area. They have these really faded tails and it was doing the total pancake job where it's

Latin against the road and all that. It was very comfortable sitting there. So we even got some photos in that sort of prototype context that you see and called KJ, said, hey dude, you know, obviously he sees plenty of them, but they are, I think he said his favorite thing to find. So, you know, unfortunately we have service there, service is pretty spotty, but was able to call him

and say, hey, yeah, I come down. And so that was really, really cool. I was able to call him and say, hey, yeah, I come down. So that was really, really cool. And then he was head now after we'd taken a few photos, Aspen walks through the forest with some giant log and that was pretty good and some moss and all this. He's going to set up his little scene and all that. I think taking it in its right context, you can make it work, you know, where it's like, okay, if I just sort of so that was really cool. And I appreciate the effort. Certainly. I mean,

how much that log way that had to be 3540. It wasn't too bad. It was pretty rotten out. So it was fairly light, but it was the smallest one I could find. He says the smallest one. I mean, the thing had to be a foot in diameter. And and a half feet long. And I don't think my shots even turned out to what I wanted. So shoot wins some, you lose some. Yeah, but yeah, so that was good. He had to head out, had to go to work the next day and all. So we were like, well, we'll do some more runs. We were staying right up that way.

So that was really good. Cool. And that was, you know, the ideation. No, that's the advantage, right? If when you're going back to a spot as opposed to booking it the first time it was like, I saw this place and was like, that's the place that will make them make our lives super easy on this stuff. Even though they might lack creature comforts in one way or another. That's the place. The advantage of being that close. Right. So as long as you have a bed, right? Bed and a shower. It doesn't matter much.

Well, it turns out when you're covered in ticks, it's also useful to be able to immediately throw your clothes into a washer. So I guess that's true when in that context, that's more even more important than I had thought about. Apologies to all the Airbnbs and airlines that we flew with and stayed in. What happened after we leave is not on us. They had to get thrown up in chairs. That's why you paid the Q&A fee. We were trying our best.

I think we did okay with it. But yeah, it was kind of we're frantically searching and and the Wi-Fi isn't working and all that stuff so there there were You know but again the wash absence of a washer when you've been heavy ticked is Turns out is a big big thing. So But anyway, yeah, so it was just the two of us and we're hey we're gonna cruise it as we're getting into golden hour into dusk into dark and we're running through on

this spot and we go through an intersection and I just sort of happened to look to the right and what maybe 20, 25, 30 feet down the road on the other road that we just passed through. I was pretty confident it was a snake and then yeah, I'll give it to Aspen for his perspective, right, because we always kind of lose it. Yeah, I'd happen to be driving, and I think both of us at this point had made an effort to look down intersections.

In my mind, I always expect to see a snake off to my side as I'm driving past it. When we drive, and it's like Rob said, it's just about sun setting. And Rob goes, stop, stop, stop, stop. And I like slam on the brakes. I looked down the intersection and sure enough, you can see a snake like Rob said, way down the road,

just going off the edge into the grass. And so Rob throws the door open, jumps out and just books it over to this thing. I imagine he knew more than I knew at that point. So I throw the Titanic into reverse, you know, trying to luckily there's a massive grass pull off in this area. So I pull off and get over there. And as I'm parking the truck, I hear Rob yelling, hook, hook, give me a hook.

And I'm like, Oh, okay. So this isn't a corn snake. And I grabbed the hook and come running over and there is Rob's lifer coral snake. Oh, nice. Well, life or photo anyway, right? Oh, that's true. Yeah.

I had done that three foot monster or at least, you know, I can own that I saw it. Everyone else was like, well, no snake, no pitcher, whatever it is, what it is, but pitchers didn't happen. Yeah. So in this context, certainly it was the lifer pitcher and it was probably half the size of the one that I'd seen before. That other one was absolutely an absolute unit. You know, whereas this one is probably what a foot and a decent size snake. And maybe half to two to two thirds of an inch thick, something like that. But it wasn't the three foot king snake size one that I had seen before, which was good

because it made it a little bit easier. Aspen had more confidence than I did. He was going all Justin for it for me and giving it a go, helping me out, getting it under the bucket. And it actually responded well to the bucket save for the fact that in prototype fashion, it would try and hide its head in the same way that we had dealt with. Either hide its head or into, we put it on some grass, matted grass, this sort of... we're talking about with the pullover. it's going under and whatever,

but there wound up being a couple that super happy with really good precision on and stuff. So yeah, that was awesome. Cool. Yeah. I think one of my favorite things about the coral snakes is their little tail curl and flick. They eat this, don't eat my head. And every single one I've seen does it. They curl just the end of their tail and then they just wave it around. Yeah. And when they're, you know, half to three quarters to seven eighths of the way under the bucket,

they're just leaving that out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. Very cool. That's nice. You got it to sit still for some pictures

and you didn't have to risk a bite from a monster. Glad you got vindicated and got your photos. So now it happened. Now it happened. And it was all on the spot. Now it's counted. Yeah. I would have never seen that snake. Well, it's just the fortune of being on that side versus the other side or whatever.

Yeah. Yeah. How it works out. So, no, I thought that was really good about that. I was super happy about that. I had an idea in my mind to, oh, let's go check out this other spot. And you kind of get into it. Well, I don't know, Aspen, if you had made mention of the fact that so in the Titanic at one point that same day, we're trying to go from point A to point B and

Justin you'll both remember appreciate and understand my concern as I was like, okay Hey, so we wind up on this very loose sand. the point where, and KJ says to me, oh, well I'd be carrying more momentum into this if I were you. And it's like, well, I have zero experience driving in this stuff.

So like, sure, I'm doing the best that I can. How about you do it? And it winds up sort of stalling out in this spot. And I'm like, he fortunately saw the opportunity, saw the need, met the need, and said, let's just switch. And so we did. But he's used to driving his Tacoma, not the Titanic. And man, I became very confused.

Oh, this is no worries or whatever. And you remember what happened to Eric's car when we went with my curtain? Yeah. Where the, you know, you got all this bramble ship right on the road and it's blackening you and all this stuff. Thank goodness you got the coverage. Yeah. Where it's just going like- A little pinstripe. Yeah, fortunately, man, this thing has mirrors so huge that we got the windows down so they're sort of, it's buffering it or whatever and all and it actually looked fine.

It came out of it surprisingly fine. But yeah, there were definitely some gut wrenching moments on my end where I'm sitting there going like, is it better to go back? You know, but you have to reverse. There's absolutely no alternative. You know, it's either it's forward or back and you're going to be running back through it.

So yeah, reminds me of our trip up north above Alice Springs in that St. Bernard sanctuary. Oh yes, the sea of grass and spin effects. It just kept getting more ridiculous. This was tighter than that. Really? Oh yeah, this was more of an ATV track. Tighter than that. Yeah, yeah.

Or maybe the difference is it was tighter relative to what we were driving than what you guys were driving on that track. At some point, KJ just goes like, oh yeah, well, it feels fine in the Tacoma. I'm like, this isn't ideal. Let's try not to do this. Fortunately, we got through that. No issues at all and whatever, but there were some concern, tight tense moments. Yeah, for sure. Associated with that. And in prototype fashion hadn't turned

up anything. So it was just sort of what you would expect. And that became the other part of it too, is even if we did see something as we're going through there, I mean, you can't even get out. Right. Yeah. And so Aspen and I, after the coral snake had snake had gone down the road and we're seeing that same... It was like, man, we came this way because this is like this and we'd gone the other way or whatever previously. We go, we're probably five to 10 minutes into that and then we turn around and we come out and on the far left of the road, right?

So opposite of where we had been and all these things, there's a live but dying corn snake that had been hit, which would be my life or corn snake, which was I guess foretold in the fact that again, because the way my trips have worked out Been super fortunate to see all these high-value The unlike the difficult to find not seeing the normals where it's right. Yeah, I think at this point I probably have to be one of ones in terms of you know on the Ignominious list of saying yeah found multiple diamondbacks multiple corals, a Florida Pine, a Simus, and haven't

seen a Yellow Rat snake or a Corn snake or whatever. I have seen a Rough Green. I've seen Black Racers, but none of the East Coast Pantherophis at all. Right. Hey, if you find yourself in that same category, reach out to Rob and let him know he's not alone. I don't think you're going to be hearing from many people though. That's a pretty unique list.

Yeah. So just, you know, and obviously reflects, right, that we're targeting specific things and whatever and something about it. You know, as I said, I rubbed off on Aspen, at least we got Simus, Simus, but yeah, we weren't turning up stuff like he normally does. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Super Bob. We missed the fight. Bob overrode Aspen in the- Yeah, he took away all of my luck. Every Florida trip I've had has been a very good spread. And all of a sudden, I'm so used to finding all these small little bike catches and I've got has been a very good spread and all of a sudden I'm so used to finding all these small little bike catches and I've got nothing to show for it. That should be a good topic. Is it better to find a few rarities or many common species?

Maybe down the road. Yeah, absolutely. The topic, I know that more or less gets us through it. We had stayed in that same area. Yeah, as I said, KJ had other obligations the next day or whatever. We cruised out in the morning and to no effect. And then I had a work call I had to take and all that. So yeah, that was basically it.

Save for the fact that in the afternoon, one of the coolest parts of the trip was, and Aspen had sort of brought it to mind, right? Because when we had gone in October of 23, Ron St. Pierre had invited us over to his place and then just sort of with the confluence of particular dates and circumstances right at the last minute, it was like, okay, well, it doesn't work because X, Y, or Z.

And Aspen was, how did you even bring it up initially? I don't know what I must have said because I didn't mention, you might've mentioned he was not that far away or you knew him or something. I might have said, oh, that'd be super cool. And you're like, well, let's just call him up and do it. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I reached out to him maybe two days before and said, Hey, man, we're, you know, flying out of Orlando, you know, can we swing by or we'll take you to get get some lunch and stuff. So I'm doing that. But we've gone over there on the front end, met Heather, saw saw their stuff.

I think the funny bit is the and I guess this has happened to them before, so they're on acreage there, and they have all this flip stuff. They have all these beautiful, amazing animals. The only folks producing albino blue tongues, and they have all these combinations and all this stuff. Here I am getting poison ivy just sort of flipping through all these boards and things. I was pretty convinced we were getting your corn. Yeah.

Right. And they're saying, oh, well, you know, yeah, we have them. They live in the garage and stuff. But yeah, it was really, couldn't speak more highly. They were awesome. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And showing us all different stuff and talking us through the adventures, misadventures associated

with the various projects, the emeralds and all that, showed us a couple. When we first got there, it was mid-afternoon, super hot, and you couldn't even see them. Literally. One of those, we're talking a four or five foot emerald, and it's in this cage, and there's obviously plants going, and it's over the water or whatever. And you couldn't see it. I don't know where it was.

And then we go take them to lunch and all and we come back. And the actual interesting thing, one of the interesting things, right, so they have lizards and lizards being even more reactive to conditions. The funny thing that I took from this is like, oh, if you're keeping reptiles outdoors, it'll really give you insight into like, when's a good time to go herping. Because when, you know, as I say, it was super hot when we first got there and most of them were hiding away that banana pectinata, the skinks, all this stuff is tucked away. There are brown anoles literally everywhere, you know, some greens and whatever too, maybe. The old reliable. Yeah. The old reliable are everywhere.

But we're looking at this banana pectinata cage and all of a sudden there's randomly, at least obviously they know it's there, but there's this, you know, giant blue tongue at the bottom of this banana pectinata. But it's sitting out like half basking. Yeah. Like, well, this is probably a good sign now that the conditions are right. It's actually actively seeking that sun as opposed to just everything had been hiding away when we first gone.

So yeah, it was definitely instructive and they're just awesome people. Saltadera's the sweetest folks that are going. Couldn't be happier to meet them. Yeah, Ron's awesome. Yeah, I haven't't be happier to meet them. Yeah. Yeah. Ron's awesome. Yeah. I haven't met Heather yet, I don't think. I don't think she was at the table when I saw him at Tinley last, but yeah.

Ron's such a great guy. Yeah. So that was awesome. And then we, at some point, because you get caught up and it was like, oh shoot, we got to go. Although we wound up having more time because they got, there's just this tiny little cell that was throwing lightning around. And I guess you can probably take off in that,

but you can't load bags in it. So you wind up, we both wound up sitting, you sat for an hour and a half, I sat for an hour. Yeah, it was an hour and a half worth. Wow, yeah. Yeah, so. That's a bummer when that happens, but you know, what do you do?

Yeah, it is what it is, man. Yeah, very cool. So we made it back. And yeah, it was, I guess, the interesting thing for me and the thing we were ostensibly going to talk about. And so we've partially talked about this. I think we talked about it with Stephen before, right? Where we talked about Herp and Solo with a group of folks.

This is sort of a similar question of saying Herping with our normal operative number is four or five total in the group, something like that. But now, what, three? I guess between... Between two and three. Between two and three on probably half the trips that I've done in the last year, 18 months, something like that.

Well, now Aspen went on the trip with the five or six of us in Australia and then this one with two of you. You even had multiple vehicles. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. What are some of the pros and cons in your mind, Aspen, of a small group versus large

group? I think the first one that comes to mind with a large group is you cover more ground, you have more eyeballs. Maybe not for cruising. Cruising is definitely going to be a detriment there, but just getting boots on the ground definitely gives you the upper hand, especially when you're looking for those obscure species that are maybe cryptic masking or like when we're looking in such a massive area for such a small snake, every pair of eyes helps. Right. Hey, wait, let's flip a coin.

Go ahead and call it Aspen. Heads. Heads? It is heads. Alright. Good job. Okay. Which side do you want? No. Yeah. I did think that that is definitely a benefit except in the case where somebody sees something and they can't restrain it or like it's a know, like, like it's a, a Molga, you know, and you just tracked it down and, you know, you don't want to risk grabbing it and, and trying to tail it or something when you, you know, that sounds familiar deadly situation, you know? So I guess, uh, and, and then like in the case of having two vehicles, you know, they rode, cruised a very nice Western Brown with the orange body and the black head and all that.

We would have loved to have seen that, but we missed it because we were going the other way. We didn't realize they were going to do a full loop or whatever. Those are the downsides of large cruises. Sometimes you miss it. It's better if you have known that it was there and then you missed it. Or it's just been a single car bench. I've never known at all. Yeah, never known. Exactly. We didn't see anything. Or we saw these things and that must have been the only things there were to see. Right. Yeah. Right.

And you know, I think that can be mitigated a little bit by having better radios. You know, the radios we had were okay, but it was like if you could see each other, then the radios worked. And if you couldn't see each other, then they didn't work. Once you get around a corner. Yeah. Yeah. And mine that I brought flat out just died and didn't work at all the whole trip. So I ended up just checking them, you know, so, so it wasn't that great anyway, but maybe something like what Dustin had, you know, the little more powerful, a little more professional, a little more expensive.

Those might be the radios to have in those situations where you're, where you've got a number of people. But for the most part, I think we saw, you know, most, most everything, but you did definitely miss out on a few things. Whereas, well, I guess you guys kind of split up a bit too. So, you know, as long as you're out at your shot and you're having to call each other on the phone and send. It's ideal if you have cell range. Once you have cell range, you're up shit. You gotta stick together pretty much.

Yeah. It's hard to know. It's hard to plan if you're going to have cell reception or not. You know, like I remember driving around in the middle, you know, it was out in, I guess, south of Catherine and I'm chatting with my wife and all of a sudden I rode Cruz a blackhead. It's like, hey, just a second, honey. I just found a blackhead at Python. It's kind of a fun thing to have that reception and be able to at least get in touch with somebody. Yeah. I mean, and we'd seen that sort of the first spot we had been was with the Simon's.

I was able to call him. I was able to call him, was able to even send the picture. It was not perfect reception, right? So that he decided to not send him the picture of what he was trying to come see for a little bit of delay there. Just builds the excitement, right? Yeah. He was good enough to do that. Well, he's like the excitement of either a compound fracture or a site is the option. Exciting either way. Whereas the second spot, you're out of it. Actually, right before he had hiked up that diamond back, I had bolted off in one direction

for I don't know, just because it was like, well, get some action in here or whatever. And then I realized this is a mistake because I have both walkie talkies in my backpack and we definitely don't have cell service. So like, if he sees anything, which he turned up, you know, beautifully, it's like, and so I was like, no, no, walk back to hope to heck that you can find him. And sure enough we did. And then it was like, you got to be within 50 feet, something like that.

And trying within air shot one another. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And we still played Marco Polo. Yeah. Because that is frustrating when you, especially when you found something and you want the others to see it because it's a cool find like the the willard

eye that you know i found in and i was looking for you guys and looking and then yeah yelling and nobody could hear me it was like what do i do you know it's kind of a panic situation yeah exactly right or that the first coral that i found you know what that you know very similar same spot or whatever where it was just like yeah if if I'd been able to get people to help me much sooner had it a had anything be it of any kind yeah whatever you know made a big difference in terms of doing it myself but yeah it was like literally if instead it want to be in 10 or 15 minutes before there was anyone else and at that point it was just like well it went into this bush so I I consciously have let it, I haven't messed with it,

trying to hope that it's just sitting there, but it wasn't, you know, some. Yeah. Yeah, that's the, I guess that's the tricky part, right? Is being able to be in contact, be, you know, if you don't have radios or cell phones. Get the coverage, but be accessible too. Yeah.

Yeah, you gotta be an earshot or something, yeah. if you don't have radios or cell phones. You get the cameras but be accessible too. Yeah. Yep. You got to be an earshot or something. That's hard because you just get hiking and you get that excitement of the next find could be around the next band or around the next tree stump. Then all of a sudden you're like, hey, where'd everybody go? You have no clue where you are, let alone everybody else. Yeah, you're kind of out there by yourself or something.

That can be a little frustrating. And it is easy to get separated or to kind of spread out, you know, a little further than you anticipated. And it's good to kind of have a plan and talk through it before you leave your car. Like, hey, let's stay within earshot and check in once in a while with each other. And I think, you know, if you're finding stuff

pretty often like we did in Australia, you know, there, and we did have the walkie talkie so, you know, we could see each other, see the lights, but also communicate, you know, over distance. I don't know that we could have yelled what we found, you know, that would have been a little harder other than just going, whoop, you know, come find me, you know, the, The come find me whoop. Other than that, it's a little tricky without the proper communication or tools or plan or whatever. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, it does have its advantages and disadvantages. If you're with the wrong person and there's only two of you, sometimes that can be a little...

You can't switch up cars. That would be... I can't even imagine, right? Yeah. Fortunately, that hasn't happened to me across the... I've gone where it was just Phil and I, just Aspen and I, just Ellen and I. It is a different dynamic. Even compared to, you say, two or three, there was the trip to Southern

California where it wound up being Eric. And Brandon. Yeah. Valentine and myself. I saw different from Eric in the Southern California than the one you had seen, where usually he'll fade know, usually he wants to, he'll fade and fade to the back, you know, as it gets to night, you know, and, but, and when it's a bigger group, you can see that, right? That where it's like, Oh, well, those people are talking, but you can step away when it's just to it. Yeah. Like there's nowhere to go. You're both sitting there or neither. You're sitting there, you know are sitting there. You got to be invested.

So yeah, when it's a match that works and you're both kindred spirits on that and whatever and it's cool. I think the answer is when it's good, it's great. And then if it goes sideways, maybe the trip goes short. I don't even know what that turns into. Let's just go our separate ways. Yeah. But yeah, I think it can, and for the most part, I mean, you know who you want to hurt with. You're not just inviting some random stranger to come hurt with you by yourself or something. But sometimes you do do that and you go out with

people you don't really know or people contact you contact you hey come come out herping with this and you know you you go do it and it's it's all right or it's it's a little weird or you know like i remember one when i moved to smithfield there was this local guy that was into reptiles and i was excited because somebody in my neighborhood was into reptiles and so i met up with them, saw his collection and all this kind of stuff. And then he's like, Hey, would you mind watching some snakes for me? I'm going away for a bit. And I'm like, sure. And then it turns out he was going to jail for soliciting a minor. And then I'm like, wait a second. I didn't realize this is where you were going. And this was the reason I don't know that I want

to be necessarily Watching your snakes for you while you're gone. So yeah, probably So that was a little strange but you know, I guess you you know for the most part You know who you're inviting on your trips and you're not yeah Yeah, no, I mean I don't know. I guess a mixed bag and I would say that it can be great either way. Obviously, the downside is cost, right? So that's one of the best things when we have four or five people and we got the singular car, right? Obviously, you get a multiplication problem if you have two different cars and all these things which might be more comfortable but you don't have that same functionality, especially

if on the front end you book it to, hey, we'll have seven people or whatever and then why is it being two? Fortunately, I've learned that lesson and won't set it to be paying for on Airbnb and things. You can have it where like, oh, if you book the same place and you say that you're going to be two people, that's a different rate than three versus four versus five. But not every place is like that. Some of them it's X, regardless of if it's the one of you or seven of you.

It's going to be the same price. Others are variably priced. So ideally, if it's a variably priced situation, ideally you get the appropriate booking or you book that right. But now, and you and I both well know when you're planning a trip and you have it in your mind, this is going to be five, six people and then it turns out to be one or two and you're like, oh, well, that changes things. This is going to hurt.

Yeah. And the people that you booked accommodations because they would probably prefer to sleep in a bed rather than in a tent. And then they bail on you and you're like, well, now I've booked these reservations and I don't even want them, you know? And now they're going to be twice as much. I'd rather be doing X, Y, or Z. Yeah.

It can be frustrating when you're the trip planner, yeah. Yeah. No, I mean that's the- It can be frustrating when you're the trip planner especially. So you and I know that pain all too well. Absolutely. Absolutely we do. So yeah, I mean, I think that's sort of the couple natural constraints, but as long as it's someone that you can, I mean, right, it's one of those, you're in it. So you just got to sort of have the right mindset. I'm doing this whether or not bring in positivity. And I think that makes all the difference in the world too, is trying to say,

hey, at least are we getting that out of it, getting the enjoyment of being out in space and doing what we're doing. Right. Speaking of which, if anybody's looking to hire a professional field herper, please let me know because I would like to go on all of Rob's trips and not worry about work or money. Yeah, that's the trick sometimes is doing all the things you want to do versus having to pick and choose what you can do and what you can afford to do or what you have time off of work to do. Yeah, it can be a trick. That was this trip. I wish I could have gone, but yeah, it just wasn't in the cards. The list of trips never gets smaller. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely right. And

I mean, the other hard part, right, is you reach a point with some of the stuff where it's like, and I'd seen it with West Texas before, well, I guess all the ones that winds up being two people, it's like, I just know from my perspective, I'm so thankful that there is that one person because otherwise, I don't know that I would do it by myself, right? Just in particularly in Florida, holy shit. But saying, hey, I'm just glad to be able to go and do it. And yeah, it's going to wind up being more expensive and whatever than it otherwise would

be. But it's, hey, at least I'm going because if Aspen wasn't going, if Owen wasn't going, these sort of things, well, then I'm not. If Phil wasn't going to West Texas, then I'm not going either. So it actually allows the trip to take place. So to me, I'm always thankful. We're always trying to bring our own awareness of the grace that we receive and say, heck man, I got to be super, I got to be on my best behavior and super nice and super positive

and all these things, no matter how it's going because I'm only here because of the grace of this person agreeing to come along. Yeah, definitely. Well, I've done a few solo ventures and with the trip after dropping you guys off the airport, I'm like, no, it's just me. It's all on my shoulders. And, and you know, it's, sometimes it's hard to keep going. Like if you're tired and you're bugged or you're injured or something, exactly. It's just like, well, I guess I'm sleeping or I guess I'm getting a hotel because it's too blasted hot. And yeah. And, and I, and I, there were a few things that I'm kicking myself because I was in the area and I had a spot where I was going to go check a rock face for an OE Dura and I

spaced it off. Like I just forgot about that part of the plan because you know, just, I don't know, maybe I get a little more scatterbrained or I'm not as focused when I'm not with other people, you know? Not as accountable. Yeah, yeah. It's just so helpful to have at least that one other person holding you accountable to the, hey, let's go.

Or just keep going, push through. Yeah, exactly. It's a little harder to push through when it's just you sometimes. Like you said, the cost goes up and the loneliness goes up. At the same time, you have a lot more flexibility. You can do whatever you want. You can listen to whatever music or podcasts you ever want. And you're not bothering somebody with some weird podcast you're listening to.

So those kinds of things can be a benefit too, I guess. And you kind of get to know yourself and what your limits are, what you really, really are motivated to do and things like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. There's a lot of pros and cons, I suppose.

I think I do like the sociality of a large group and herping with a bunch of friends. And I think those bonds get tighter. And sometimes if you miss out on a trip, you miss out on some of that, you know, for sure on formation, whatever you want to call it, you know, like the, and the inside jokes or, you know, things like that that are developed. People who suffer together stay together. Right. Right. But at the same time, it's nice that you can develop a deeper, you know, deeper relationship with certain

people at times as well. It's one thing to kind of know each other over the internet and it's a whole different ball of wax to hurt with each other. Sometimes you find out like, maybe I'm okay just being a distant friend across the internet. You find your bond has weakened a little with the Herp trip. Not saying that's necessarily happened, but it's a possibility for sure. Pick and choose carefully. Cool.

I do think the other, you'd hit it there and I was just seeing it even in the moment with the Simon's, right? To me, the added benefit of just at least being one other person is... And I suppose when it's a great target like that, just the two is good. Sometimes it's fun when it's this whole big group, the excitement of all those people is like a multiplying factor on the enjoyment of the experience. It was awesome to lay down and just stare at the sign, get bit by chiggers, haven't gone to town, staggazomes for days.

Simultaneously, it's also fun to be sharing that experience with someone else, right? It's awesome to see it, but it's great to share it. If it's something that obviously meaningful, then one person is more than enough. If it's something that, hey, it's just super cool to see it, the rough green snake. Well, someone within the group, that's going to be a passion item. You know, so that like, oh, that's bringing up the overall enthusiasm when they come in,

super stoked and ready to go. Right. And that can almost detract if you're the only one excited about a find. You know, like in my first trip over to the Darwin area, I kept stopping for every silly RS, you know, who was crossing the road and they're like, come on, dude, it's just another gecko. And I'm like, what else are we doing? You know, what else? We're just driving around. I might as well stop

and look at a gecko. Yeah. Well, we're here for snakes. Like, well, not all of this are here for snakes. You know, like some of us like geckos too. I mean, they were excited for the first 20. You know, like some of us like geckos do I mean they were excited for the first 20 Was those those last 15 that just drove But you know, I you know what I mean like if if you don't share those passions sometimes it's like you're really pumped about something And everybody's like oh cool, you know, can we go now like right? I'm the tickin. Let's go find something cool So well, and I think even you know, that reminds me is the first time we've gone to Australia Can we go now? Like, time's a-ticking. Let's go find something cool. So. Well, and I think even, you know, that reminds me of the first time we'd gone to Australia. You know, we went, so it was Eric, Chris, Salemi, and myself.

And Chris had just been there on the previous year as part of the grand venture with Nick and that crew as they had gone through. So that Eric and I are, it's our first time in Australia and first time, obviously first time in this area because it's first time and whatever. Whereas Chris is going like, I've already seen it. And that's not to him, that's to that context of saying like Eric and I are going, everything is new and everything is exciting. Invariably it's not going to be as new and exciting if you were just here a year before. And that group dynamic can be weird too.

Yeah, right. Yeah, I've had that experience where I've been with people who have been like, I've been there, done that. I don't really need to get that excited or do much of that. And even I've been there nine times, I still don't feel like been there, done that. Like I'm still thrilled about just about any find, you know, even if it's something I've seen 35 times or whatever, you know, Hey, another silly heiress. Yeah, I don't know. I guess that's, again, you know, selecting the crew, knowing people that they get excited just like you do. You know,

that's an important consideration because if you're always like, come on, let's go, let's, you know, enough time with this thing, you know, and you're just like, come on. Our time is up with this animal. We've done our welcome versus, you know, this is a real treat. We need to... We're excited about this one. So all good. Absent pictures like we did for years. I hope this is fun and interesting. Certainly it was an awesome trip and cool to... I'm just super happy with it. It was an awesome trip and it was cool. I was super happy with it. Yeah. Remind people where they can look for your pictures to see photos of your trip.

So they'll probably see Aspen sooner. I think maybe I'm getting onto that. I know maybe this is another fight topic at some point, but there's the question of do you post stuff? How soon after you've seen it? What is that telling people? Obviously here we're talking about it, but, um, putting in the work to listen and all that, you know,

Yeah. Another dynamic too, because like, you know, if you, if you're really excited, like for example, the, the Brettles Python that we found, like we kind of all decided, okay, let's let Jordan post this first. He was the one that spotted it, you know, like let's give him the first amazing photo. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's kind of the, you know, that's the, um, as long as everybody's kind of agreed, but sometimes you get people who are like, just, Oh, I just got myself picture and I'll just shoot out everything. And you know, then it's kind of like, oh, well, that kind of takes away the same time. It's not like we overlap completely on the followers and stuff like that. And we're not posting it up necessarily to get likes or whatever,

for the most part. We're putting it up for us to remember and to us to be excited about and to have other herpers say, Hey, that's the record. Yeah, exactly. So I, you know, I guess I've been in both boats where, you know, I've gotten scooped in quotation marks versus I've scooped others or whatever and got it out quickly. So, you know, it just depends. Yeah.

That's, I guess that's another maybe discussion for the photography issue is, you know, taking pictures with your cell phone. It's very easy to share those and to, you know, get them to a point where you can just throw them up on the internet. Whereas if you're taking pictures with a camera and unless you've got all of mine are pictures of the back of my camera. Right. Those are the further, the further I think Rob shoots in JPEG, right? So you can transfer your photos right away. They're already processed and you can upload them. Whereas I'm shooting in raw.

So not only do I have to wait till I get home to upload my photos to my computer, then I have to go through them and process each photo individually and read, add in the color and the detail that otherwise would have already been added into it. And then downgrade it so you can... Correct. Then bring it back to a JPEG. Yeah.

Yeah. Then put it in a JPEG. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, different taste. So maybe it's easier to have alignment on that.

Another pro for a small group. It's less likely to have a rogue actor that's doing stuff that maybe you're not loving or whatever. Yeah. All right. Where can people see your pictures, Aspen? Yeah. I usually throw them up on my Instagram under Aspen Mahan Wildlife Photography or on Facebook as well.

Okay, cool. Yeah, I've seen a couple come through or maybe that was just mostly in the group chat. But I think, yeah, I just said I haven't posted anything from the Florida trip yet. I just barely started processing them before the show. So it'll be a minute. Well, and what is when because anybody's listening to this, maybe you've posted. I still haven't touched the Australia photo. So really, you've done. I've gone through a few of them, but Babler shot. Oh, yeah. Eating the lizard. And that was pretty cool. Yeah. Fun stuff. Um, all right. Well, I guess that's a, we can maybe have some more discussion on the photography, uh, discussion down the road. Um, we,

we kind of dipped our toes a little bit in that, but we need some real photographers to, to battle that one out. You might have to bring Jordan back on. He was, he was a little like, Hey man, what happened there? You have two phoners discussing photography? Come on. So yeah, we'll definitely revisit that topic. All right. Well, good discussion. Good recap. That sounds like a great trip. I'm glad you had some really nice finds and yeah, some good lifers and some good confirmation of lifers. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. I still need one for Cataliniatus monitor, the striped tail monitor. I didn't get a picture of that thing and both Heidi and I saw it, so at least she can confirm that I saw it. All right. Well, thanks for coming on. Thanks to Eric and Owen and the MPR Umbrella and we'll catch you again next time for Riptile Fight Club.