Reptile Fight Club - Hiking Up vs. Road Cruising

Episode Date: July 21, 2023

Justin and Chuck tackle the most controversial topics in herpetoculture. The co-hosts or guests take one side of the issue and try to hold their own in a no-holds-barred contest of intellect. Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the topic of Hiking Up vs. Road Cruising.      Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comChuck Poland  on IG @ChuckNorriswinsMPR Network @FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQMore ways to support the shows.Swag store: https://teespring.com/stores/mprnetworkPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/moreliapythonradio

welcome to reptile fight. We're back. What's up? I am Justin Julander, and with me, as always, Mr. Chuck Poland. Welcome back. Welcome back. Welcome back. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't really a planned break. No, it was like a complete... It was like a complete like, oh, shit, it all fell on the floor. And we just were like, oh, we're apparently too tired to clean it up.

I don't know. Just let the sleeping dogs lie, I guess. That's it. That's it. That's it. But it was good. It was good. Yeah.

Good to have a little bit of a break and glad we're back. Hopefully remember how to do this thing but um i don't know what what did your break entail what have you been um so i mean kind of most recent drama uh i so i'm i'm kind of recovering um i had a great fourth of july and it pretty much entailed me just like laying around the pool tanning, like just, I mean, it was like the first like weekend that was really nice in San Diego. So it was like so awesome. And I think the last day I was at the pool, I was getting ready to get out of the pool and I was like coming up and, and I kind of was, I had my eyes open and I saw the edge of the pool and, was like coming up and and I kind of was I had my eyes open and I saw the edge of the pool and and I was kind of reaching for it and I closed my eyes and I I

must have just like barely missed the the ledge of it and gone over the top and I consequently came way close to the edge and like smacked my face uh right there on the edge of the pool and broke my tooth. Yeah, I broke my front tooth. And I didn't even like no, no bloody nose, no fat lip. It was just like literally like a perfect, perfect, stupid. Yep. Yep. So so earlier this week, I got Chippy the tooth fixed. So that was good.

And then unfortunately, the hits didn't stop there. The next day after I chipped my tooth, I was like literally leaning over my bed and I coughed and I felt my back pop. And I have like a bulging disc in my back. I have probably like a couple, but I yeah, I totally coughed. I felt it pop and and then it hit the nerve and I just like, you know, went out. So I'm like mending, you know, chippy, the tooth is fixed, which is good. My, my back is on the mend. I was able to get into Muay Thai.

I just sat in class on Monday cause I was too scared to throw a kick. And then Wednesday I'm pretty much back to it. I get, it's weird, man. It's like I, my back, when this happens, it's like either massive pain or just tightness. And when it's tightness, I can work through that. And I never, I don't usually get pain unless I do something crazy. So it's like, I don't know. I gotta, I think, um, I think I need to do some core

exercises get my core up and oh yeah those uh bulging discs yeah that's not fun i i haven't experienced myself but like yeah it's it's not it's just complete the dude that those nerves in your back just take you right out oh yeah oh my. Oh, my gosh. I mean, you know, I've kind of like, what, cricked my neck or whatever. Just like looking over and all of a sudden you can't move your neck. And it's, you know, it's fun getting old, right? Yeah. It's a good time. Yeah.

But, yeah, I guess that would happen occasionally when I was younger. But I'd probably be over it in a day or two. But, yeah, like when you just turn your head weird and all of a sudden, yeah,'t move anymore and you're like wait what what is going on here yeah so yeah i got a little bit of an injury yesterday i was feeding the snakes and i wasn't paying like i thought is uh i was feeding an albino darwin and i thought his head was on the other side of the tank and it wasn't so i'm opening the thing and i'm kind of like reaching back or trying to grab a rat with the right hand and my left hand's hanging out there in the wind and all of a sudden he launches like a full couple feet out of the and just chomps me you know

so i've had that that was fun i'm pretty sure there's a tooth or two in there that i haven't gotten out yet but they get pretty yeah you know know, so it's like bruised and, you know, swollen. And I assume it was a total, like not letting go, just horrible, not fun bite. Hold on too long. I mean, it was, it was a feed response. So he thought he was eating and he's probably smelled the rats and all that good stuff. But yeah, I just not paying attention. Just kind of like, Oh man, this happens when man this happens you know when i'm going to learn i guess that's a good thing i don't keep venomous you know like you can't act so cavalierly when you're keeping venomous but anyway that was my fun i mean i always i've always felt

like it's any time i've ever lowered my guard that that's when it's that's when it's like or or i or i like uh trust trusted a snake you know i say oh that that thing's no it's like, or I like trusted a snake. You know, I say, oh, that thing's, no, that's never going to bite me. And that's the one that usually is just like on a weird, is like has a weird moment and just like bites me, you know, and it's like, ah, and, you know, and then it won't do it again or it might. But, you know, never trust. I blame myself, but yeah you have to you have to it's he was just hungry i'm sure yeah and he got i mean the snake's not going to take any responsibility there yeah you know what i mean he didn't apologize at all hey man you smell like food hey you know it was warranted yeah definitely i just held a paper towel on my hand while i let

the you know let the blood well you bled profusely. Yeah, exactly. It's amazing how much you can bleed from a snake bite. And it's so funny how bad the bite looks from the blood that's there. And it's just, it's really, I mean, it's a bunch of pinpricks, but boy, it sure makes it look real messy and just, ah. It's funny. I guess it's better than on the face. That's fair.

I was a Casey Cannon got bit in the face the other day. Post on the chat or something. But yeah, that wouldn't be very fun either. No, I can't. I don't know that I've been bit on the face that I can remember. So I have not been bit on the face face but i got bit in the back of the head oh that's right i remember that story that shit hurt oh yeah that would not like that it bit me like that across the back of my head like straight like that open mouth oh yeah as far as

it could reach on your head and that that snake was easily eight feet like it was like oh yeah it was a shitty bite. It was shitty. It was crazy. Did he hold on or anything? Yeah. Well, no, actually held on for like maybe a second and a half and then let go. But it was like, you know, I, like I would have never let the snake do that if I, if

I didn't totally trust it. And that was exactly what I'm talking about is the time where you're like, no, I don't need to worry about what this snake's doing because I just had it around my waist. I was cleaning the cage and I was going to get it off and put it back. And bam! Just drilled me, man. Man, that's nuts. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, herping's been pretty good in the last couple weeks. I started kind of that survey like a few minutes up the canyon from my work so it's like your lunch your lunch survey walks nice i think it's gotten too hot to do the lunch walks and i'm seeing you know far less snakes lately yeah in the afternoon so i'm gonna have to either go out before work or, or later in the evening, you know? So I started a road cruising, another Canyon that's closer to home. And, uh, it was, it was a full moon night, you know? So I was like, I was driving out there thinking, Oh, so Heidi was tired. So I'm

like, Oh, uh, if you're, if you're going to go to sleep, I'm going to run up the Canyon, do some herping real quick, you know, while you take a rest. And so it's like, okay, wake me up when you get back, we'll watch a show or something. So, so I, I'm like, I went up just right as it was getting dark and hit the canyon and it was, you know, full, I see the full moon and I'm like, ah, is this even going to be worth it? And so I started driving up the canyon and then the clouds roll in and see the lightning and thunder and stuff. So I'm like, okay, this could be good. This could be interesting. And, and, you know, sure enough, like I start up the canyon and there's a big old gopher snake in the road. And, and I, and I go a little further, there's another good size gopher snake. And so I bagged both of those. I was, I was going to just take some

pictures the next day and, you know, release them after I photographed them so I I uh I the first one was really feisty like it kept striking and trying to bite me and stuff like it was really uh ticked off the second one was as calm as you know they typically are out here the great basin gopher snakes are pretty relaxed pretty chill yeah so it was just like stretched out on the road I just went down picked it up and then I go maybe you, a quarter of a mile more and there's a rubber boa and like, I get out to grab that one out of the road. And there's another one that I can see just up ahead, another rubber boa. So, and I, you know, I would see rubber boas every once in a while. I I've road cruised them before, but like two in one night, that was kind of rare rare and then i went a little further and then it

started to rain and then i came was come back down the canyon there was a third rubber boa but you know after i found those first four snakes um there was a car right behind me that came speeding through and it would have smashed all four yeah they were they were pretty you know in the road you know basically so they probably wouldn't have lasted very long after. So I'm glad I got them out of the way. That was, yeah, for sure. And then that fifth snake, the, the last rubber boa was a smaller one, but it was on the side of the road and it was coming down and, and it was drinking in, you know, on the side of the road. And I grabbed it before I, without thinking, you know, I grabbed it and picked it up and I'm like, oh crap, you know, I should have taken a picture of it drinking water off the road. That's kind of a cool observation.

But anyway, you know, so I got the, those five snakes in pretty much less than an hour, you know, it was all pretty quick and, and the road's not very long. It's pretty short, you know, and it kind of dead ends. So it's nice. There's not a lot of traffic, just, you know, maybe kids going up there to hang out or something. But, um, and then at the top of this, uh, canyon, there's a trail that goes up. So, um, a couple of days later I went up the trail and, and like saw probably a half a dozen yellow bellied racers and another rubber boa, just like, I like I went up the trail and I'm like I better get back and so I turn around and come back just right where I was you know a few seconds earlier and there's a rubber boa on the side of the trail that I totally missed you know just making its way up the side of the embankment you know I guess herping's a lot of luck where you put your eyes

and where you you know so kind of i don't know things that move for you at the right time or exactly and it wasn't moving it was just sitting there but you know it's pretty obvious it's kind of a light tan color or almost it wasn't so obvious the first time wasn't exactly yeah you know i just didn't turn my head that way i was looking on the other side of the trail or something you know when i passed that point so it's just where you see it i kept my my neighbor told me he was running or jogging up there and he saw a rattlesnake and so i was like i need to go see a rattlesnake close to home or something so i've seen two rattlesnakes this year and one was just well they were both spectacular one was like really light kind of yellowish white with really bold dark um splotches you know nice

and then the other one almost it looked like like kind of like a speckled rattlesnake it was really light colored and kind of interesting really cool pattern so yeah i was just on my lunch hike on the normal route and one buzzed me and i'm like oh yeah yeah, rattlesnake. Yeah. But he, I, they're so, the great basins are so frustrating to photograph because they don't want to hold still. They just want to move out, you know, just, they just move off on you. They're not trying to defense. I mean, they'll, they'll rattle at you, but kind of as they're moving, they don't rattle much either. Like do a little buzz. If like the first encounter that the first one I found that big one, the lighter colored one with the dark, um, pattern was on the trail, like in this thick undergrowth,

I almost stepped on it and it kind of hopped down the trail a little bit and just gave me a little, you know, not much at all. And then, so I went down below it and I kind of scared it back up because it's a little more clear at the top and less steep, of course. And then it went under this pipe. And so I'm following it's like crawling under the pipe. And I didn't realize the underside of the pipe because I guess there's water flowing through it. So it gets condensate on it. So the water runs down on the bottom of the pipe and there's like dirt and stuff. And so I scraped like my belt of my pants on the on the mud and so i have this green disgusting mud in my belt that i didn't realize until i got back to work you know i'm working i'm like what is that what is that in my belt it's like all this gross mud so yeah it was kind of

funny but i got to the other side where it was climbing i kind of posed it for some pictures and stuff like that but yeah nice it's a nice looking snake so um you know it was it was climbing i kind of posed it for some pictures and stuff like that but yeah nice it's a nice looking snake so um you know it was it was a fun deal all around but i yeah i just love seeing those rattlesnakes i'm hoping to see some more and i think i need to start you know doing some night cruises but man that canyon by my work is so busy Like you almost have to hike them there just because if you find them on the road, they're more than likely dead. Um, the gophers, I only saw a couple of gopher snakes and they were pretty like in quick succession over a few days.

And then I haven't seen any more up there in the same area. So I don't know if they're just, it's more dense, like, man, it's so green up there just from all the water we've gotten that it's just you know the undergrowth is just everywhere and it's gonna be crazy all over it's gonna be crazy because you guys are gonna have melt off for a while yeah you know shoot jake's out there yelling i guess our cat got away. Oh, no. He escaped our hairless cat.

And then he just like, yeah, that's another fun little lame injury as I was chasing him, trying to catch him in the backyard. Because, you know, he's hairless and he doesn't have his front claw. So he's like kind of vulnerable. We don't let him outside and stuff. And so I think I think it's messed up that you make Jakeake go hairless like that i wish he's got this this big beard like this and he's like grizzly adams and the cat is like no dude you gotta shave it us jewlanders are not beard growers we are not beard growers man yeah i keep these are not rug peers dude you know he doesn't want to listen to mom and dad but yeah anyway so i was chasing the cat and i

stepped on some like thorny bush or something now now my heels all messed up i can't walk walk right but anyway yeah it's been really uh good herping season so far i've i've probably seen you know close to 30 snakes now it's been nice good yeah cool been a good uh spring early summer such a mild summer it's almost like we've had a real spring where it lasted a month or two you know um everything's like behind like uh gardens or month late. Yeah. But yeah, it's green. Lots of lots of growth up in northern Utah. So it's been pretty nice. That's good.

That's good. Yeah. It's about time I get to know the reptiles in my backyard. Yeah. Yeah. Another big like fun thing. I got invited to go speak in Australia. So I'm going gonna nice out to

head out to australia again so that is on the uh the east coast or um yeah new south wales uh kind of sydney region cool the talk the hawks what's the talk um it's on uh knobtail geckos nice yeah so that's cool and then afterwards I'm hooking up with old Peter Burch. Peter Burch. That's what I figured. I figured that would go down. I'm excited to see my old buddy. Yeah.

I'm going to hit up Steve Crawford, and I'm hoping Chris Kuppert could join us and go out for a little herping out. Where are you trying to go? Just on the East Coast? No, no. I'm not a big fan. burping out and where are you trying to go just on the, on the East coast or no, no, uh, I, I'm not a big fan. I mean, I, I like some of the areas in the East coast, but it's just so busy. There's so much, I get it. I was just asking cause it was close to where you were flying. So I didn't figure you wanted to stay there. I know you better than that. Drew lender. Yeah.

I know he was nice enough to offer us a place to stay and a vehicle to take us in to go up nice so we're thinking of hitting the gammons and flinders range is kind of a preview to the 2025 trip you know see that's cool kind of get a feel for the area yeah go see some stuff up there maybe i'm gonna go try to find a few more uh knobtail species up in South Australia. The starred, or Neferis stilatus in the Pernati Lagoon. Neferis delini. Go try to find those, too, just to get some photographs in the wild. But, yeah, they're pretty cool-looking geckos. But, yeah, I'm excited to go herping Australia again.

It's been too long. Yeah. I was talking to Steve, and he's like, yeah, because I really want to get back to Alice Springs area and go up to the center. And he's like, yeah, we could do that. You know, it's a little bit more of a drive, but he's, I'm like, yeah, it might be something. He's not leery that you're going to drop him off a cliff and leave him there again?

This is Steve Crawford. Oh, Steve. Yeah, my bad. But yeah, I wouldn't leave Steve Crawford. Oh, Steve. Oh, yeah, yeah. My bad. But, yeah, I wouldn't leave Steve Crawford. Just Steve Sharp. That's fair. That's fair. I mean, he is being awfully generous for you to leave him.

Steve trusts me to go herping with him again. Yeah, no. I think you probably PTSD'd him a little bit there, yeah. Oh, well, he went along with it. Whatever. He lived. But did you die? But did you die?

But did you die? Exactly. Nobody's really died yet. Yeah. Man, things are hatching out, being born all over the place. So I'm going to be busy again. I thought it was kind of a light year. I didn't have as many clutches and that's what you thought, huh? So I talked about the heat spike on

here and, and, uh, in the incubator. And so of course the black headed clutch didn't fare too well. Like I got three to hatch out, which was encouraging, but then they hatched out and they had these like tiny eyes or no eyes like so i'm like i guess the heat did affect them because i was thinking oh they're hatching or they made it this far and then they start hatching and then i uh i was taking out the reptile i'm like oh those their heads look different their heads look weird yeah it's because their eyes are all weird so now i don't know what to do with these things. What do you do?

So that was kind of the first event. That was the first clutch that hatched, the first clutch that was laid. So, you know, I guess they hatched, so things are moving in the right direction. The incubation, other than that heat spike, went, you know, I guess according to plan the changes that I made and the recommendations from some of my Aussie friends mainly again Steve Crawford but yeah it was

crazy and fortunately they didn't get out of it unscathed so yeah and then lately lately uh i had some um western stems hatch out uh some nice little wheat belts and then uh had some spotted you know some eastern stems i didn't get spotted this year i got three pygmies to hatch on

unfortunately that was a low hatch rate and i'm not sure what happened there i only got three out of like 12 i think maybe they got too wet i probably added too much water so they were they all went the distance or what yeah i mean they were they looked they looked okay they just kicked off, but then the majority looked great. They just didn't hatch out. So I've had that happen before with pygmies. So, yeah, maybe I need a bigger incubation chamber or drier substrate. I think that's probably the problem I'm having here. Mm-hmm.

I mean, I really, I mean, after incubating the traciate, I mean, I, that's what I incubate pretty much everything at now and everything comes out fine for me. Uh, 85, 86, you know, it fluctuates, but, um, I think, you know, the idea that maybe we kept keep things too hot, too wet to it. I mean, it's just like, it's a repeating theme where you see it from places and you're like, yeah, we, we definitely probably do. So it's true. I think we're impatient. We want them to get out as soon as they can, you know? But yeah, you're right. It's kind of on the danger zone. Cause if it goes a little bit hotter, that can potentially

result in issues. Um, yeah, I don't know. I guess, uh, you'd think after a while I'd stop messing up, but no, no, I mean, I, yeah, I still mess up. What are you talking about? Like everybody messes up, man. It's not like that. Yeah. You, uh, it's weird. Cause I got a hundred percent hatch rate from the, the wheat belts. They, they all look great. And they had, they were set up essentially the same as the pygmies they overlap in range so you would think that they would have similar requirements i guess the wheat belts are a little further south so maybe they're a little i don't know different conditions but they do occur in the same areas as the the pygmies so i don't know why a hundred percent hatch rate with one and pretty low hatch rate

maybe 30 with the other so i don't think you should spend all of your energy trying to figure that out because that's the fun part right i just i just don't think you'll ever get the answer like not truly you know what i mean you can you can sit there and be like well i think it was this and i'll try this and if it works you, you're like, yeah, I was right. But were you like, you know what I mean? So it's kind of like to me, it is kind of like, hey, it's going to happen. What's going to happen? Like you said, you keep them both similar and you had a very different outcome.

So clearly there's like, you know. Detail, you're not kind of catching or that they're not showing or that's not, you know, not really detectable. So. One of those fun mysteries, I guess. Those fun mysteries of life. I got some, uh, a gurney, a Hosmer. I saw that. Congratulations. That's awesome. I know you're psyched for that. Pretty little babies, but yeah, I, I, I left them in with the parents cause I thought, oh, you know, that's, you know, those, a lot of the Gurney species are kind of, have some parental care and, you know.

They're at least tolerant, if not, you know, nurturing. Yeah. Yeah. In some instances will help the offspring and stuff. And I've even seen photos in the wild of like, you know, family groups or like young and old animals kind of hanging out together. So, um, so I left them in with the parents and then a few days later I noticed they just weren't thriving. And so I took them out and like soaked them in water and, and, you know, helped them shed, shed out. Cause there's,

they had kind of a stuck shed type going. And so I like ah you know i gotta pay a little better attention so i separated them out and put them in a cage next to the parents cage so at least they can kind of have some visual contact or see each other or something i don't know if that yeah you know man i and and granted it's different it's different but stuff that like geckos that i've had that were supposed to be communal geckos some of them tolerate it some of them absolutely do not you know what i mean so i i you know the idea of like like i think you know even babies that in in adults together and in that situation stress can happen and then they could not drink and then they could get easily dehydrated. And you know what I mean? Like, so it's like, I could totally see how something like that could happen. And even in like a not, you know, but, but like at the same time

in the wild that, you know, like I don't, you know, how is that any different? Yeah. I mean, yeah, they don't have the great conditions in the cage that they probably get in the wild. Yeah, I mean, I guess they could seek it. I was listening to, I can't remember, maybe Rob just, no, Rob was talking about it on a podcast. Rob Stone, old Bobby Pebbles. And he was talking about the Chameleon Lovers podcast or Chameleon is it Chameleon Lovers? That sounds weird. It does sound weird. But I think it's just

the way you're saying it. Chameleon Lovers. That's it. That makes it weird. That made it really, really weird. That was it. That was the problem. Yeah. Oh my god. No.

No. We do not need a new offshoot podcast like that that is not how we do this in this business around here buddy but uh it it was uh talking it was peter knackis and he was talking about i think that's how you pronounce his name talking about uh fogging reptiles because he'd like observed pretty much all behaviors and chameleons in the wild except for drinking and so he's like hmm you know why haven't I seen a chameleon drink that seems to be one thing that they should do you know most commonly you know he's seen him eat he's seen him mate he's seen him lay eggs he's seen all sorts of stuff. So he's like, why don't I see him drink? And so then he he took some he got some wild chameleons and just before sundown, he weighed them. And then he and then he went, you know, he kind of watched him, checked on him every couple hours and they just slept all night in the same spot. And he weighed him in the morning and he had gained the substantial amount of weight in the night. And and he had, you know, the only thing he could really attribute that to is the the mist or the fog that would come in over, you know, during the night and that the chameleons were breathing in this moist air and getting their moisture from the air.

Like, what a cool you know observation and you know he he also found a correlation with chameleon distribution in areas that had that kind of um water system you know fog cycle whatever you want to call it um roll in so pretty uh mind-blowing fascinating stuff that chameleons probably don't drink in the wild and they probably get all their moisture from fog and that yeah keeping them in captivity and giving them a water bowl or spraying them down or whatever you know probably freaks them out first and and then it's not the best way to hydrate them and so they're probably not living their best life because of it so i think know, what a revolutionary concept to figure that out

and to help implement that or get that implemented in captivity and, you know, recommending different foggers that reptile keepers can use. And you wonder how many, and we've talked about this on here before, you know, how many desert reptiles actually thrive on on that kind of dew point or you know the ron saint pierre concept of you know the animals coming out when the dew point hits and when that moisture in the air occurs and so how much of their moisture are they getting that way rather than the other so i don't know it might be uh worthwhile to set up a fogger on all on my desert lizard enclosures and see if that uh makes a difference or something you just how how would you uh i mean it'd be

interesting because i mean in the desert you know a fogger is kind of not a natural like fogging a desert animals kind of but you'd almost need like it would be hard because you know you'd almost want to like yeah to really do a mimic you you need to literally condensate water and bring it you know back down and to do like and to do you know yeah like to really do it right the idea i guess is um yeah i mean they're not this it's not the same thing as the chameleons are experienced because you know but can you do the same i mean can you get the same result you know what i mean like maybe they're not breathing in the moist air but the but the uh dew is settling on them while they sleep or somehow if they're in a bush or something and, or in a rock crack and then they get that

water on their skin. And, you know, some of these lizards have the channels up to their mouth and I don't know, like, yeah, it's just kind of making me think a little bit, but, um, but yeah, I mean, I've woken up backpacking in the desert and the top of the sleeping bags got do all over it. You know, you wake up kind of wet, uh, the whole sleeping bags wet and all over it you know you wake up kind of wet uh the whole sleeping bag's wet and you're you're like wait i'm in the desert why is it wet why is it wet yeah yeah so maybe they wake up the same way why i'm all wet and they lick it off or i you know i don't know if they're soaking it in subcutaneously or what but something's going on in the desert you know something's definitely going on in the desert you know something's definitely

going on in the desert they're not just uh waiting for the rain to drink you know there's other methods so yeah i thought that was kind of something that's got me thinking but yeah i how to implement that that's another question and yeah and you know these these animals seem to do all right you know with the water bowl but are they are they living their best life i guess that's the question could they be better with another method so i think you have a strong suspicion yeah they may not be living their best life it's it's due to great minds like grand saint pierre and peter that's the only reason i'm thinking about these things. So, yeah. But, yeah, good things happening. My Depressa female looks pretty good-sized as well.

So I'm hoping she'll have a little offspring or two in there as well. So we'll see what happens. Sweet. I think I struck out on the Western Blue Tongues. I was hopeful there. They were looking pretty good. No, not this year and the northern blue tongues one of the females gave birth and then the other one another one's about to pop as well so yeah thinking about moving out the blue tongues kind of wholesale as a group

early yeah so when they're small and cute and stuff just get them yeah get them out the door quick yeah it's not a bad idea yeah i hold on to them too long i'm terrible at ads and so might as well yeah so preach into the choir bro 10 lot of blue tongues hit me up yeah yeah 10 lots of blue tongues that's very crispy off of you i mean yeah the first the first uh litter was maybe 12 13 animals a few of them second one we'll see she's pretty big but yeah they're they're cool cool lizards for sure we'll see and then i looked in the incubator today and i've got inlands hatching so that's jesus that's always good that's good the lord man yeah much anticipated clutch of course yeah yeah those ones from last year looking fantastic they're so cool they're such cool snakes and yeah but those were the only carpets I got

this year so I don't know what I'm, what I'm missing here, but what do you do? Potentially nothing. Yeah. Just the way it goes. Yeah. Don't talk to me. I'm already throwing my own pity party for myself with this Tracy and stuff.

So I'm over it. And was it Shane that got the clutch tracy and he's expecting another clutch uh i don't know i haven't i don't know i haven't i don't know if there was two i saw what he messaged me about one yeah and i knew about that i did another female that was gonna lay soon maybe i i really i haven't been paying much attention to be honest to the internet so yeah the socials yes that's correct that's correct i've been hiding in my anger hole yeah well that's uh i i'm sorry you missed those guys this year that's it sucks man i know it's such a hard question you go to what was working

exactly that's where i'm at now that's where i'm at now is like do i do i because i have all the cages i have all the small cages and now the question is even if it sets them back is putting them into smaller cages where they're gonna be you know used to it they they it's a known successful thing for me like is that going to cut the time rather than trying to get them to be in bigger cages where they're always going to feel less secure and try to see how long that takes to work like i don't know which is going to be easier to do you know what i mean so it's like yeah whatever messes with your mind yeah and i mean and i hate to say it because they're you know they're pretty good size they're good size animals not that but but when all those cages are together they have tons of room to move vertically and so it's

not like they're cramped and i wouldn't i wouldn't say in those those cages there's that much more space in the cages they have because they're kind of sharing two cages plus a third uh smaller cage so i i mean i don't know i don't know i just like i'm i'm just kind of like good thing it's just a hobby right yeah no and and and you know god god forbid if i had to have like have an ego right about this stuff and i'd oh my god like i'd be i wouldn't be able to show my face or talk publicly i'd be like embarrassed you know oh no i don't think that's the case but no it's not you still did it so that's the case. No, it's not. You still did it. Oh, I did.

Better than most. I'm just trying to do it again, damn it. Yeah. Come on, guys. Let's get it together. But that said, all my other animals are doing great. Like, you know, everything is doing fine. I'm right on track with everything else. Yeah, exactly.

I would have liked to have hit diamonds this year. I don't think that's gonna happen based on some of the conversations I've had with people. I talked to Jordan about his and kind of when his went and I just, I kind of thought maybe if I got mine out and, and they were out over the winter, they not i don't know i i thought maybe they would i would have time in the spring to kind of feed them and then they'd breed out and we'll see if that happens but i doubt it i bet they his sound like his sound like they were pretty much

on the same calendar cycle as my outdoor coastals so that's pretty traditional so but you did get eggs from them right yes yeah yeah yeah like 15 eggs something like that so yeah cooking now no they're done they hatched oh they hatched yep they hatched everything a hundred percent i mean 100 everything across the board with those. So that was cool. Solid, man. Super solid. Second year in a row outside.

A hundred percent, you know, laid a hundred percent, hatched a hundred percent. Like it was, it's pretty, pretty good. I'm just leaving them alone because, you know, last time I complained so much about how frustrated i was trying to get him feeding i'm like i'll just wait let him yeah yeah did you let the female incubate or did you no i took him i took him yeah i guess that's yeah a little bit yeah and i took i took him because she's two years in a row and i don't want her to sit any you know i don't want her to incubate and not get food or not and then with it being both of them i have to pull one of them out so it's pulling the male out and then feeding the female and it's just like i'd rather just kind of i'd rather just kind of

you know pull the eggs separate them feed them put them, put them back together and leave it alone. Um, and I, you know, if she had a problem, I'd have to pull them anyway. And I'm not the, I'm not the maternal guy. I'm just not, I'm not, I'm not, I don't know. Yeah. That's, that's, uh, and, and I probably could incubate them in that cage. Cause the wire mesh is real like quarter inch, but the diamonds have like the half inch because of the size that i needed it didn't come in quarter inch so i probably wouldn't yeah uh let those diamonds go maternal in that case just because i i think a baby could get out yeah yeah that wouldn't be the best thing to have no fun when when you hatch them out. Yes, I'm eternally hacked.

All my snakes. And they're gone and there's not a single one in there. That would be the worst. Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah, that wouldn't be the best. At least you got to see the results of your mistake. Yeah.

You would never see the results of that mistake ever again. Well, you might. I don't know. Your neighbors start freaking out about juvenile diamond pythons that have been feeding on black snakes everywhere yeah yeah like yes i'll be right over then they get established and you got a feral colony of diamond pythons in your neighborhood as as ecologically not coolest that would be to be to have happen i totally would be cool for that so well well i guess uh is that it should we should we fight yeah we leave a little time

for did we come here to do that okay all right we should as well keep it going but keep it so yeah i was uh thinking you know as i've been herping lately um you know the the difference between hiking up something the excitement of you know hiking something up on a trail or or in the wild versus uh road cruising it you know, is there any benefit to either, or is it the same to road cruise it as it is to hike it up in the environment? And if there's, you know, an argument to be made that one could be better than the other, or if there, you know, it is what it is.

And it's just good to see the animal in the wild. So I thought we could discuss that topic for the last few minutes of our recording here. Okay. So, all right. Well, let's give the old coin a toss. I got to dust it off a little. Yeah. Okay.

All right. Whoa. Oh, wow. That was aggressive. Tails. That was aggressive tails. It is a heads. You didn't see the high high of the yeah that's what that's the

problem is you're now flipping it off of the screen so that i cannot so that i cannot properly predict the call you've got my uh my technique yes your modus operandi all right well i'm gonna i'm gonna pick the take i'm gonna pick the road cruising side. I knew it. I fucking knew it. Oh, yeah? Yeah. I mean, I can take the other side. No, you take whatever side you want. Because I love hiking.

That's how I fight. I'm kind of taking the opposite side just to kind of think it through and see if I can come up with something. Really? Because, yeah, I would prefer to hike something up. Oh, no. No, no, no. Oh, wow wow so i picked the wrong side well this will be interesting then yeah now you're gonna have to think about yeah why you like i don't hiking it's hot and tired and your dickhead friend goes off running after a snake and leaves you in the dust.

I'm sorry. Dickhead. I say it right. I say it right. But no. Okay. So I'm a loser and I get to like to hike. Okay. And I have to go first.

If you want to. I'll go first. I don't mind. I'm a loser and I like to hike for snakes because, I mean, let's just face it. It's really kind of part of an experience, right? If you're out and you're herping, it's not just going out and looking for reptiles. It's getting into nature and communing with nature and the landscape and the habitat and, you know, and then having to think through natural history of where they might be, you know, having to make decisions about which places to go. and satisfying to be out hiking for reptiles than, than it is just to kind of sit in the car, you know, where maybe the conversation is, is, is,

is as good and all other things are as good. I just don't think, you know, my, if, if we could talk about my soul being filled up I don't think that road cruising fills my soul quite like hiking and finding a target species. That's how I lead. Yeah, that's a that's a very compelling argument because I do definitely agree with that. And I think I'm representing your your side. Well, here you're you're you're you're you're you're side side. Yeah. And I, you know, I agree that, you you know that's that's one of the best parts is

seeing all aspects of their habitat their nature you know what they what they're experiencing and kind of the conditions now um you know you have to know the natural history to get out there at the right time and to be able to see them in the wild because a lot of times they're you know hidden or not not out in the open you know to be able to be found or they're only active in the open, you know, to be able to be found, or they're only active in the early morning and the late afternoon, you know, that kind of thing. So, you know, as long as you know what you're doing. I like Rob Stone's herp trips because he usually throws in a hike in the middle, you know, between herping.

So, you know, you might see stuff on the hikes, and he's planning the hikes in areas where you could see stuff. But if you don't see any animals, at least you see a beautiful landscape or some kind of cool art. I mean, it's kind of that fishing mentality, right? You go out fishing, wanting to catch a fish, but expecting to just not catch a fish and still, you know, have to good, find a way to, you know, enjoy just being out in nature on the boat, on the water, that kind of thing, or, you know, on the pier casting out, whatever, you know what I mean? So it's, it's some of it's not about the end thing. It's about the, you know, the beauty of the process. Yeah. So, you know, with, with that out of the way, I do think, you know, uh, you,

you hit on one point that I really think, uh, road cruising is amenable to is, is good conversations, you know, because a lot, you know, most of the time it's usually just the people in the front seat that can kind of have a clear view of the road. And, you know, if you're in the back, you're kind of trying to look out the cracks or trying to see, and it's not the most effective a lot of times. And so, um, usually you kind of can relax and kind of rest your eyes or whatever, and just have a good conversation. So, you know, if you've got more than two people in the car, it's, it's usually a good time to, to bring up some fun topics and to, to have a really good conversation. And some of my favorite, uh, Fight Club episodes have been when we record in the car, you know, while we're herping, that's been

kind of fun to do. So, um, the other, uh, aspect is you're, you're pretty comfortable, you know, you can crank the AC or whatever and, and be in a nice climate controlled environment and in a comfortable chair, uh, as long as the rental is big enough and, uh, you can, uh, you know, have, have a nice comfortable ride looking for snakes. And yeah, it's pretty, pretty straightforward. You either see them on the road or you don't. And I mean, I, I would say you would almost want to be that comfortable if you're pretty much putting your chances of finding something to luck. Yeah, exactly so um you know and and obviously on a hike you're you're sweating you're getting dirty you know that kind of stuff but uh yeah no pain no gain get your

shoes wet things like that so that doesn't necessarily happen in the car so yeah but you get your car you also get your cardio up you also get your steps in and again you know again you know i like that aspect a lot more but a little heat a little heat and a little stress on the human body if managed properly has been scientifically shown to be good for you so you know i mean i think i don't shy away from that for sure and no i know you don't on the utah trip i think we hiked over 50 miles or close to 50 miles or something so it was it was a lot out there no you don't shy away from it you run away you're like justin wait up like he's just gone and then rob like is never stops rob's like and that i guess that he's like the fastest dude who doesn't look

like he's that fast yeah well and i think he you know there there's a couple mindsets of kind of hiking a trail looking for reptiles is you know you you go quickly and you might kind of startle them they're they're hanging out on the trail basking or something and then it's a good strategy you don't see it coming you know but also the slow way has maybe some benefits that way too so you can you know have a few people kind of go quick but then that disrupts the conversation you're not having the best conversation because it's probably better to kind of spread out cover more ground you know you're going to see more stuff if you're talking loud and having a raucous conversation you're going to scare away other wildlife that you might otherwise see.

You know, so, you know, there are some benefits to road cruising where it doesn't matter how loud you're talking because you're moving along in a, you know, 30, 40 miles an hour. You're not going to really scare anything. You're going to see it on the road pretty, pretty straightforwardly. So that's, I guess, what I'd counter with is, you know, the, the comfort aspect, the conversation aspect, I think that could probably, uh, be in the wind column for road cruising. Yeah. I mean, I, I think, you know, there's, there's road cruising is kind of a a tribal knowledge kind of thing. Areas to road cruise. Whereas I think, you know, now we kind of have stuff like I naturalist.

And what was the other one? The one that is like Aussies use a lot. I don't know if they use it, but it's ALA, Atlas of Living Australia. I thought that was another one. Oh. Anyway. Yeah. Anyway, you have these tools where you can kind of geotag stuff.

So it gives somebody who would hike into it or hike it you know here's a here's here's an area of focus and it kind of gives them a something to kind of pull on um and you know sometimes like i think you know obviously like when we cruise with jordan dude he knew right where right where the road stopped and started where you would find this this and this and this and so you know you seems like you can reliably know the things i mean but but again he's been cruising it for that long um you know yeah and he probably knew the habitat types and you know like had had also hiked stuff or or gotten out into the hills as well you know um that's your is that your summation or or did you say that i think that's part of it okay that it's just from road cruising i i guess that's one of the well i won't i won't

give you a point here but so keep going keep going okay so um so there's that i'll give you a point i'll say it because when when you're road cruising at night, you're not seeing the habitat. You're seeing the road in front of you, you know? So it kind of, kind of lame that way. So yeah, go ahead. But, but I mean, you know, I think from a standpoint of like, like we saw stuff on the way out to O Akateo, right. And back, you know what I mean? Like you're, it's just like,

even just traveling to somewhere, if you hit it at the right time where stuff's on the move, you have a chance of seeing it like even in areas where it's not known. Right. So, I mean, I i think you know you have decent odds and and there's some benefits to you know road cruising for like the easy you know obviously like okay i wouldn't go hike out in the middle of the night to try to go find stuff but i'd road cruise you know what i mean i wouldn't want to be out there um you know oh that's i mean i mean that's fun to get out there at night well and it depends on where you are like when we're in west texas it was like 130 on the yeah the day it was really hot like

the surface temperature was like yeah 160 180 160, 180 something. It was ridiculous. I thought my shoes were going to melt off my feet. But then, you know, hiking at night, I mean, it still didn't get it dipped below 100 like around midnight. So, you know, I think if you're herping West Texas, you might as well be nocturnal for your herp trip and just sleep during the day in an air conditioned hotel room and then get out at night and, and, uh, you know, hike or, or road cruise or whatever. I don't know if you can really road cruise in Texas though. I think that's illegal, but you know, I guess depending on where you are, yeah, you might not even be able to road cruise. It's, it's, it's, you know, technically illegal to road cruise in Texas. You're supposed to park your car and walk along the road and look at cuts and things like that. So West Texas, point for me.

Thank you. There you go. Yeah. And there's some really nice habitat and hikes out there. But yeah, that night hike that we did in West Texas was cool. We saw a few cool reptiles. See, but I guess that's my point is like in road cruising, you can just drive on the road at night, right? Yeah.

But like at night, you need a targeted hike. Like you're not just hiking off out somewhere. It's not like if you're randomly driving a road versus like, oh, I'm just going to go hike up into this. Oh, let's go right here and let's go up and let's go look to me that's treacherous if you don't have you know a pathway or something even if you're flashlights in the middle of the night like there's areas of anza that would be horrible to try and hike through you know untrailed or like yeah so so it would have to be like a trailed hike in the middle of the night

like you did i guess is what i'm saying um for the condition but i don't yeah i don't disagree as long as it's like that but but yeah like i mean you know just hiking out would be yeah you could potentially be sketchy situations if you're hiking because you're not seeing stuff coming up and yeah um yeah also depending on where you are there could be like big cats or mountain lions stalking you behind or something so you know you gotta gotta be or cars or cars on the freeway as you're crossing well if you're yeah road right like yeah that's dangerous or if you're faster being vehicles on cruising. Yeah, that's dangerous. Or if you're. Fast moving vehicles on the road, for sure. Yeah. Or if you stop to go get out of your car to hike somewhere.

Mm-hmm. So you either road cruise or you hike, but you don't road cruise on the, or hike on the road cruising spot. Yeah. I think that's what we learned. That's a good lesson to learn. That was a great. You don't want to learn that lesson the hard way. No.

We lucked out there. So, yeah. Why did you die? I think another nice thing about road cruising is, you know, you can see a pretty big diversity through the habitats you can cover some ground right you can cover quite a bit while you're road cruising and see

different habitats I'm recording over here come on Ruby come on you can see different you know, different areas, get to different places, you know, in the same evening and see different species and cover a lot of ground, cover over different habitats, you know. So as long as you kind of know what the terrain you're

in looks like or what species you're going to find there, you can kind of plan to road cruise some areas. Now, unfortunately, a lot of road cruising spots have become really popular, I guess for better or worse. I guess if you're out there and you meet up with people and meet new people that are interested in the same things you are, that's kind of a cool thing. So, yeah, sometimes you'll roll up and you're like, the only thing they're doing is road cruising.

They're looking for herps. And so you stop and you chat with them. Oh, what have you seen? And I think, uh, who's the pilot, a YouTuber guy that, uh, does that. Um, ah, they had, they had him on NPR a little while back. Um, I can't remember his name. He's from Southern California. He's your neighbor, dude. Um, but anyway, he's, uh, he does those videos where he's out, california he's your neighbor dude um but anyway he's uh he does those videos where he's out you know he'll do a little road cruising in southern california and he's always meeting up with new people and getting his son but no no he does a youtube channel where he's i don't listen you're talking to the wrong fucking guy about youtube channels and fucking social media i don't participate when are you gonna figure this out

anyway i'm just it's it's just my name blanking you know i know i know and i'm not being a good co-host right now i'm sorry you're right that was not that was not nice but uh i'm sure i can look him up but anyway um the uh the the, you know, he's out there meeting new people that are also interested in road cruising. You know, you can kind of increase your findings, too, because other people might have stumbled upon it and then you see them stop there. They're out photographing the snake. You can get out and take your turn photographing the snake as well. Um, so, you know, there's, there's another benefit of, I guess, crowded roads also mean increased, uh, detection, you know, so that, uh, that could be a benefit of road cruising over hiking, you know, I guess people on the trail, you know, we,

we hiked up behind a group of they were collecting everything in sight so it was kind of lame but um they they also uh were um looking for stuff they had they had a like a whip snake that they'd found and so we got to photograph that and we probably wouldn't have seen it because they were in front of us you know that kind of thing so anyway so there are benefits of of spots that are a little more busy than you'd maybe like them to i mean there and don't forget the guy don't forget the guy that we met on the palm canyon hike who you who you hooked up with and we met up with later when we were road cruising and he showed us snakes that he got and then you guys spent like about 40 minutes talking and showing trading pictures of snakes you do not remember this oh that's convenient that you don't remember

no i do when it's my turn to talk about the hike part of this uh-huh uh-huh no no i do remember this guy he was like a doctor or something yeah and he like he was kind of an older guy yeah older guy yep yeah yep yep and uh he wasn't he wasn't that in the know though right no he wasn't that in the know like a little uh he was like he would like tell you but then kind of ask you right wouldn't he yeah like yeah he kind of met him on the on the palm canyon hike right yeah yeah yeah he was a nice guy he was a nice guy i was like yeah i guy. I was like, yeah, I don't think we're going to meet up later with you. But yeah, we did. We did end up seeing him, didn't we?

Yeah, we did. Shared pictures at least. But yeah, nice guy. But yeah, I mean, I. What did he have? He had like a glossy snake or something. What was that? Yeah, it was a glossy snake.

That was a glossy? Uh huh. Yeah. And that was kind of cool because we got I saw behavior that I hadn't seen before. Oh, it was like it was. Yeah. This it was crawling underneath the loose gravel or. Yeah. Almost like tremors. Like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, there's those benefits of meeting people.

I mean, not that you. Oh, Lou Boyer. Gosh dang, there we go. The pilot that herps in Southern California and in Southeast Asia and stuff. He flies all the time to Southeast Asia. So anyway, he's a pretty cool guy. Like, seems like he'd be fun to herb with. But anyway, yeah, he's filmed some really cool stuff. King Cobras and, you know, palm trees and stuff in the wild. So I think he just went to Costa Rica and posted a video on Costa Rica.

So it's pretty cool. But anyway, yeah, meeting up with new people, meeting people I met. Gosh, I don't know why I brought this up, because, of course, I can't remember the names of the top of my head. I was talking to Rob about this guy the other day and, um, dang it, it's Jeremy. I think his son was named Jeremy. And then his son's like a really good photographer. And then what's his name? Anyway, met up with those guys in Southern Arizona. I was, I was road cruising. I was waiting for the guys to fly in. I was going to go pick them up at the airport. And so I spent the night on a,

on a hillside with a road that was supposed to be a good spot for certain reptiles and actually where we found those green rats. And so I met that guy there and he was out there looking for green rats that one evening. So I met him and his son and then went, when we went, you know, we went back there and found a couple of green rats or found one and then Dustin found another of the next. Yeah.

Yeah. So, um, I dunno, I, I met him and then, um, friended him on Facebook and then he gave me a few suggestions for places to look for different stuff and, you know, some good places to road cruise or whatever in Southern, like he was really nice about sharing, um, uh, spots. So it was kind of cool. So what you're saying is sometimes you got to get out of your car and meet people.

Yeah. I don't think that's a bad thing in most cases. It's not, it's not. I just wanted to hear you say it. Anyway, I think so. I, but I guess that's kind of a draw because you can do that either or, you know, on the Utah trip, we were hiking up a canyon and we met some canyoneers that were coming down. They had repelled down part of the part of the canyon, so we couldn't go up further. But they came down and passed us and I just stopped and talked to them and they're like, oh, what are you guys doing here? Well, we're looking for snakes. They're like, oh, you know, I'm not really into snakes, but there's this spot where we see snakes all the time. There must be a den there because, you know, every time I go there in the spring or the fall, there's like 10 snakes hanging out.

You know, these rattlesnakes. They're like, oh, really? Give me the precise location he told me you know he didn't care to share the spot because he's like yeah he's like it's well known in the climbing community and stuff so i'm like okay he's like and i checked out the like the a few websites on that climb site and and there were like several of them that were like be careful of the snakes they're right here you know they're right at the start of the climb yeah stuff so just keep an eye out that's cool all pretty cool about them like they were like oh i killed a bunch of snakes they were like be careful you know be cautious keep

your eyes open for the snakes like we were going to go do this climb but there were the snakes there so we left we didn't want to disturb them so you know pretty cool so you meet people like that and you know of course i'm i don't remember their name or anything, but they gave me some really good Intel and I'm planning on, you know, getting back over and, and seeing, uh, some of that and trying to find that spot in the future. So yeah, it is, it's cool. Cool. Uh, to, to meet people. Um, so let's see. I, I'm, uh, Steve Tippetts was the guy that, there you go. Steve and his son was Jeremy. Yeah. So, uh, I guess is, uh, um, yeah, anyway, they, they go out all the time and find

some really cool stuff. So there's, they're great, uh, father, son duo herping duo. So anyway, so yeah, you meet really cool people out. I guess either if you're road cruising, which I met those guys road cruising, or if you're hiking, and I've met plenty of cool people hiking. And I was hiking up this local canyon by my house the other day, and I met some people that they thought they knew me. They thought I was somebody else, and I didn't really disabuse them of that like I just pretend like yeah yeah great to see you guys because I thought it was gonna be a short like hey how's it going and then I'd pass

along or something they're like oh what you doing I'm like oh I'm looking for snakes I'm doing this and photographing them and stuff and they're like oh they start telling me about all the snakes they found on their hikes and stuff it was pretty cool and they're like oh you'll have to say hi to matt for us and you know we haven't seen you and him for a long time are you doing construction i'm like uh no no i'm not involved like totally out of the construction business these days haven't done it in a while now the guy that you thought i was probably was down there doing the construction but i thought it was pretty funny so yeah i must have one of those faces but they they thought i was somebody else so and it didn't they didn't like realize it either like they just kept saying well

we'll see you at the next uh gathering like sounds good you know they're gonna have an awkward conversation all around the greater Utah area. Exactly. There's somebody who looks just like you running around an instruction site. If you fooled him that good, man, he must look a lot like you. Yeah. But, you know, and a few of the people that I, you know, I was just kind of like, I'd pass them on the trail and go, have you seen any snakes? And they're like, oh, yeah, I saw a rubber boa back, back you know at this spot or they i saw a garter snake over here and

something oh thank you do those work out for you it seems like every time we've done those they never work out but yeah usually the snake has moved on or they've scared it away or something or it's gone down a hole and you know that's fine but that's sometimes it does work you know you never know so at least know, they're in the area and you can come back and look for them or something. But so I don't know, I'm a fan of chatting with people. I know some people kind of like to keep to themselves, but, and I'm always trying to, you know, find people locally that maybe want to go out herping or something, you know, if they're, that's how I met Chrisris and aspen you know it's like kind of inviting myself

on the herb trip and that's how you do it man that's how you get in it's it works sometimes i guess but yeah and um so you know it's it's been fun to be out it's all about secret knocks and self-invites yeah and i and i think you know road cruising you know has sometimes the advantage of you're able to find more stuff quickly. You can see more snakes, especially in an area where there's a lot. I mean, I would maybe, let's see, I was down in... I mean, potentially you can. I don't know if that's like, you know.

But I mean, it's a lot harder. You're finding less when you're hiking, I think. Of course. Yeah. Potentially. That's not... Yeah. you're finding less when you're hiking i think of course yeah potentially yeah but there are some species that you can't really find as easily road cruising and so maybe you're gonna find like like maybe clobs you know yeah we saw a ton of clobs we never saw one on the road

ruby saw a few i guess be soft. There's something, something out there. There's a snake in your backyard. Oh my gosh. Okay. Mute button. There we go. So anyway, yeah, there, um, so, you know, there are some species that you're gonna to find more of potentially on the road. And there's going to be some that you're going to find more in a hiking situation. So like we're in northern Idaho or no, it was Washington, kind of a Washington, Oregon border. I was herping with Casey Lasek and Ryan Young and my son and my buddy Mike. And we were in this area, you know, looking for mountain kings and saw like a bunch of Pacific, Northern Pacific rattlesnakes, right? And so we hiked several of them there were probably four or five that we

saw on our hike and then that night road cruising we saw probably 30 they were just everywhere we're like that's another you know nor pack like let's move on or whatever you know we weren't we weren't really stopping to photograph every one of them but yeah there were a ton out there so it was kind of cool you know you see numbers sometimes but it might just be all northern pacific rattlesnakes i don't remember seeing any other species we may we may have seen and you know maybe some of that is just like about what what the temps are like and what's on the move or what you know what the conditions are like or what's on the movie yeah for sure for sure. And, and maybe that's correlated to like, if you were hiking it, you would find that target species

more readily, just as well as you would find it more readily road cruising because it's out on the move because the conditions are right. You know? Yep. And maybe if you could run at 40 miles an hour, you know, or, you know, be able to observe as you go, Hey, you said you couldn't keep up with me. If I can't run 40 miles an hour, you know, or, you know, be able to observe as you go. Hey, you said you couldn't keep up with me. If I can't run 40 miles an hour, neither can you, but, uh, you can, you can, uh, okay. Okay. Fine. Maybe you'd see as, as many or something, but you know, and the fact that the road is, you know, wide and flat and easy to see a snake on most of the time. Um, and it's, uh, makes it a little detections a lot simpler

that way right because when you're walking through habitat you could be walking past plenty of cryptic reptiles that are not gonna give themselves away you know they might just sit still and let you or or or you get to view them from a distance like the chucks yeah you know yeah like you know they they they they're there but you gotta kind of see them before you walk up on them because they're not gonna stay so you're probably not gonna road cruise a chuck you know it's not gonna be on the road but i have seen several from the road you know i was um driving in saint george heidi was in a meeting and so i was like i'm gonna out herping. So it was kind of hot in the middle of the day. So I'm like, chuck walls are going to be out. And so

I was driving to this spot and along the way, I look up on the side of the hillside and there's a couple of chuck walls up on there. So I parked the car on this busy street and hike up the hillside and go photograph these chuck walls. So, you know, there you can see stuff from the road, you know, as you're driving, driving along. And so, you know, there you can see stuff from the road, you know, as you're driving, driving along. And so, you know, you can't. Is that considered hiking or road cruising? I think that's maybe road cruising because you're seeing them while you're driving. You know, you're I remember. But is it road cruising once you exit the vehicle?

I would argue that once you exit the vehicle, it's no longer road cruising. That is hiking, my friend. It's true. It's true. But you wouldn't vehicle, it's no longer road cruising. That is hiking, my friend. That's true. That's true. But you wouldn't have seen it if you weren't driving, right? But every hike most people drive through, you don't have to walk to a hike to make it a hike. That's true. Yeah.

So I guess that maybe falls in both categories. You're just scrapping for points now. I am. I am. I am. I am. I'm angry that you took the side that I wanted, so I am going to squeeze this turn up. But that said, I'm done. I'm done.

That was the last I had in me. That was it. That was it. I remember. I held on to the very end. We were in northern Australia going maybe 50 miles an hour down the road, and all of a sudden the call comes in on the walkie talkie that Rob Roy McGinnis had spotted a,

a frilled lizard up a tree, like on a tree, like probably 30 feet off the road, like on some random trees, like frilled. So we all, you know, pile out and there was a frilled on this tree.

I'm like, Holy crap. How'd you spot that that's pretty amazing so yeah i think uh i don't know that's you know it's it's uh i i kind of have a little bit of a knack for seeing lizards sitting on rocks kind of out in the out in the wilderness that's a little special uh skill of mine is spotting so so you would say you're a hiker rather than a cruiser i think so yeah okay i'd prefer to get out there but i i definitely recognize the benefits of road oh i i mean i like road i have a lot of fun road cruising i enjoy i mean but but but but

mind you you have to keep it in context we hiked all fucking day that day and then we road cruised. So we got our fill, you know what I mean? So it wasn't just like, it's not a one or the other for us. Yeah, I don't think you should plan any trip just to road cruise or just to hike. Exactly. You might as well take advantage of both. And I think definitely some people prefer one over the other. And I don't know, I'm kind of split down the middle.

I'm pretty split down the middle. Yeah, I think it's a pretty effective way of finding a lot of stuff now, you know, photographing them in the dark is a challenge and, you know, and, and, but I guess you're having to do that if you're hiking in the night, but, um, you know, and, and getting them into suitable habitat, you know, you're usually like photographing them on the side of the road and, you know, cars whipping past or potentially striking your vehicle or something, you know, it's, or people stopping. Are you okay? No, we're just, just photographing snakes. Exactly. Get them. So, yeah, I mean, there's, i guess there's some danger that way i remember i was road cruising in australia on a dirt road on the back roads and i'm like this idiot's coming right for me like

why is he on the wrong side i'm like oh crap i'm on the wrong side i had to swerve back over the correct side of the road in australia which you're like touche sir exactly yeah i was like i'm the idiot yeah so that was yeah it could be dangerous if you're gonna yeah and and i mean i think we we learned from uh um nick and ryan and um ice cream is the other ice cream no not that story um nick and ryan and casey salemi oh salemi trip to thailand and they just assumed they'd rent a car at night you know and go out road cruise oh you need to listen to npr episode it's pretty i haven't heard this but they yeah um so they didn't like they had to find somebody to take them out and like, you know, the vehicle they brought was crappy and like they had to ride in the back of

the truck or something, you know, and stand up and look for stuff. And so very less effective, you know, you know, they, you just assume, Oh, I'll just road cruise it. But if you, if you're, if you don't speak the language or they don't rent cars or, you know, that kind of thing, you might have a struggle. And so you might be forced to just hike in certain areas. And where were they for this? Thailand.

Oh. What did they do? They were on the back of a tuk-tuk looking like trying to find stuff? I think it was a proper truck. But the guy had borrowed it from his friend and he didn't want to take it too far because it was something or other. He borrowed his dad's car. I guess the moral of the story is they seem to spend a lot of time in the, you know, the other side of Thailand in the in the bars and clubs. Yeah. Well, that's a lot of much of a herb trip if you're you're not

out looking for herbs but yeah um so i i got a kind of a lot and nick completely forgot to bring a headlamp and so he was like so they gave him crap about that it was pretty funny eric's like you went on a herb trip and you didn't bring a headlamp what is wrong with you yeah it was pretty good but you know i guess he he thought Ryan would have his back, and Ryan did have plenty of headlamps. Of course he did. So, yeah. I bet Nick brought his powerlifting gloves, though, didn't he?

Oh, yeah. He never leaves home without those mutton powerlifting gloves. Mutton powerlifting gloves. Get yours today. A proud sponsor of our podcast. Reptile Fight Club. lifting gloves get yours today our proud sponsor of our podcast reptile fight club well if we beat a dead horse no i convinced everybody to go road cruise and hike i think you must do them both yeah so i don't know put out there, whether it's road cruising or, or, uh, hiking, um,

road cruising is very effective in the night, but it can be dangerous. Like it can be a little tedious or monotonous. You're just driving down a road. And if you've run out of things to say, or your co-pilot falls asleep and you end up hitting a desert King snake on accident because your co-pilot was asleep you know that's that's the brakes man you don't you don't want that no it wasn't the brakes it was the co-pilot good awake co-pilot that can help you alert you of snakes on the road i don't know who this co-pilot was but i hope they're hanging their head in shame right now i will not mention them but yes i know hope that head is it wasn't me it wasn't me it wasn't you but it was i'm all

jacked up on red bull when i ride with you yeah uh so i don't know this is i i don't know i like i think there's good aspects in both i think i probably prefer hiking but i i do enjoy a good road speaking of which i might go hit the roads tonight. Look at you. Just a quick, you know, 30 minute drive. See what I can see. Nice. That's the other nice thing is it makes it easy to get out there and herp, you know. You don't really have much excuse not to drive around in a car.

Although the price of gas can kind of put a damper on that. That could be it. I would say that in Southern california uh that's a that's a consideration especially out in the middle of nowhere in the desert like gas is like seven bucks a gallon yeah they know they got your ass yeah exactly you don't have any other options so well good stuff good stuff it's good to be back on thanks for being back on we got a guest next week so that'll be fun that's what's up

I'm ready for a guest yeah be a good guest no yeah a return guest a return guest we will

reveal that next week so stay tuned alright well thanks for listening we we appreciate it

and hopefully we didn't lose everybody while we took our little break. And we'll get you back and you can enjoy listening to this episode. But I guess any cool stuff in the reptile world, like academically or got any new books or anything like that? I told you about what was going on in my life at the beginning of this podcast. And if that sounded anything like I know what the hell's going on in the reptile community right now yeah no sorry i don't really um yeah i assume you came prepared because i generally don't

i i didn't think about it until right now so so I'm not prepared either. Thank you. I needed this pass. There's a new episode of Morelia Python Radio that I'm anxious to listen to. It's Willie Filipec. Oh, yeah. I really like his views on things. He's a pretty bright guy, so that's fun to listen to him. So I'm excited to listen to that. I just saw that Eric released that today.

Nice. I did see that. Going to get on there and check that out um but yeah other than that i i don't know i've been i got a new uh field guide uh to the reptiles of europe nipper our old buddy nipper recommended that so um it's pretty cool it's not a book book but not bad yeah exactly yeah hey once in a while you got to get a not a book but yeah um all things in their place yeah yeah so i don't know other than that uh i've been kind of lazy on the herb front i guess as far as learning new things or looking up cool although my paper was published uh on antiviral treatment had i already talked about that i think you had mentioned it that that uh i don't know if it had published and out there so

yeah congratulations that's good stuff get a title for us right yeah announce that here but um i believe you can access it free on Google Scholar. Let me see here. I'm sure Justin would be happy to email you a copy if you just email him directly at his. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. No, I'm happy to. I'm sure you I know. Yeah.

Is it not going to show up on here? There it is. So it's called In Vitro Characterization and Antiviral Susceptibility of Ophidian Serpentoviruses. And it's published in Microorganisms, the journal Microorganisms in 2023. And the lead author is Stephen Tillis. So you might recognize that name. Congratulations, Dr. Tillis. Yeah. So that was fun. And, and, uh, we're on there with,

uh, Robert Osiboff, Dr. Oz. So not Dr. Oz. No, I know. I hope you're an author of paper with Dr. Oz from university of Florida. That would not be the best. That would not be the best thing for your career is if you people were to authored medical papers with Dr. Oz. Yeah. But it does look like there is a free link to the paper. So on, on Google scholars,

so you can check it out if you like. But yeah, we talked about, I, we, our part of the study was looking at susceptibility of different serpentoviruses or nidoviruses, as they used to be called, to different antiviral drugs. So hopefully that's kind of the first step in identifying something that might be able to treat our snakes that have nidovirus so um hopefully we can keep the ball rolling and get some other studies funded to further see if that has efficacy in animals because right now it's just in cell

culture that we have what's um you know what's what's it cost to get another study done uh yeah a couple tens of thousands of dollars i think so okay you know if we could get some more crowdfunded uh you know we could maybe do another study or two but i don't i i know i don't know if the university of florida lab has an animal model you know like an infection model that's probably what the next step would be is to experimentally infect some animals and then treat them with these antivirals and you know it might be good if we could set that up but i've i talked to our animal facility guy and he uh was amenable to it so it would just require purchasing the caging and having a lab dedicated to it. And that requires a lot more

than, yeah, that's a, that's unfortunately. Yeah. But I mean, I feel like a guy like you might be able to pull those strings. Yeah. I mean, the new, the new, uh, biology building, they renovated it and they have this impressive herb lab. It's really nice. um and uh i i can dr doolander do a guest tour or what man let's go i went i did tour it but i don't know if we could uh do infection studies over there that's the only and i don't know if they'd want an infectious you know yeah yeah that makes sense yeah but they have housed animals um reptiles over at the same place that we do our antiviral studies and rodents. So it's a possibility. I just need to look into it a little more.

But if there was some funding that we could get through the reptile community, that might be a way to push that forward. And it would be in, you know, kind of in the interest of the reptile keepers in general to have those options to treat their animals or at least tell the vet, you know, this works against this virus. Yeah, sure. I mean, yeah. We're tools for the toolbox. Yeah. But you do need that kind of, you can't just say, okay, I've got a snake with NIDO. I'm going to treat it and see what happens because that's kind of, that's not really fulfilling Koch's postulate. It's giving some information, but yeah, that's something I probably want to chat about on this podcast at some point.

You know, how to design a proper study and get usable data and things like that. Nerd stuff. Yeah, nerd stuff. Stats. All right. Well, thanks to Morelia Python Radio for hosting us and the Podfather for doing all the work. And, oh, I'm looking forward to Carpet Fest

August 12th, man. It's coming up. I'm excited to get out there and see it in person. Go to the OG Carpet Fest. It should be a pretty good gathering this year. It's too bad I can't make it out, man. I don't know.

Fun party. I got too much shit going on. Yeah. I got too much shit going on yeah i got too much shit going on i'm excited to take a look around pennsylvania see if i can find a sneak or two see see some add some more species to the list and i'm looking forward to that as well so should be cool uh i was thinking it was taking forever to get here but almost we're all of a sudden in the middle of July and it's, it's just another, that's why I can't go. Cause this fucking year is flying by and I got stuff I got to do for work. So yeah,

yeah, that's the way it goes sometimes, but maybe down the road we can make it. No, for sure. I'm, I'm, you know,

yeah. Biding my time for another trip. Yeah. So I don't know if you're on the fence. It should be really a good time out there. So yeah, I'm going to get out August 12th. I think that's the right date. I hope so.

Because I think I'm flying that time. That'd be the wrong show of the wrong day. Eric's like, what the fuck are you doing here? I think me and Rob are on the same flight flight so rob's going to that time yeah you search the plane frantically and don't see rob then yeah check your check your date a second yeah now we're on frontier airlines so hopefully we actually make it but yeah i was wrong once already oh they're one of those kind of nickel and dime like they have affairs but then you can't bring a carry-on kind of jerked around in different ways yeah yeah there's no food or drinks it's like yeah that's yeah interesting but should be well

cool yeah um anything else to announce say the gecko symposium at tinley this year in the october tinley show uh check that out if you're interested in geckos uh that should be a good one um so i think we just had anaheim thursday before tinley oh yeah there was that was last week spencer's the sim guys had spencer's monitors at Anaheim, the Super Show, right? Did you go? I think so. No, I didn't go. I don't.

Yes, Noah and Lisa were there. Oh, really? Yeah. Our last guests on the podcast. I think that was the first time they've met in person, even though they live pretty close to each other. Close to each other? In California. Yeah, they met up at the show

and had a nice little photo together so yeah so good stuff but yeah I wish I could have seen some Spencer's monitors they're cool I've seen them in Australia but I don't think I've seen them over here they're a really cool species

alright well thanks for listening we'll over here. They're a really cool species. All right. Well, thanks for listening. We'll, we'll hopefully fight again here soon next week. See you later. We're back. And crack is still whack. Thank you.