Reptile Fight Club - IHS Recap w/ Jorden Perrett

Episode Date: August 28, 2026

In this episode, Justin and Rob discuss IHS Recap w/ Jorden PerrettFollow Justin Julander @Australian Addiction Reptiles-http://www.australianaddiction.comIG https://www.instagram.com/jgjulander/Follow Rob @ https://www.instagram.com/highplainsherp/Follow MPR Network @FB: https://www.facebook.com/MoreliaPythonRadioIG: https://www.instagram.com/mpr_network/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtrEaKcyN8KvC3pqaiYc0RQWebsite: https://mprnetwork.transistor.fm/

Welcome to Reptile Fight Club. I'm excited for today. I'm going to be chatting about the IHS meeting and some herping we did. And fortunate to have Jordan Parrott here with us. So that's exciting. Of course, Rob Stone's here as well. So we will get this party started here and just jump right in. How are you guys doing?

Doing great. Yeah, excited. And people have just heard the first Reptile Fight Club on which you were not present. I chat with Niago Leonard. It'll be the episode released immediately before this one. So that hopefully people appreciate it, you know, talking Langer Conservation, Kat Ba, and Vietnam, all sorts of interesting things. So probably the best one for you to miss if you're going to miss one.

But yeah, hopefully that folks enjoyed that. Yeah, I didn't inform Rob of my plans. And I left early to go Herpa Jordan in West Texas before the IHS meeting. So he did a solo venture here. So yeah, good times. But yeah, I guess I'm looking forward to hearing it, you know, the first Justinless RFC potentially. So we'll see.

But cool. Good, good conversation. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know. It'll be interesting to the extent that we get feedback around it because it's probably pretty niche in the sense that, you know, look at, it's really talking about the ecology in Kat Ba, which is a particular interest,

folks that like rhino rat snakes. There are other species that are either present or endemic to the area and then got into the langers a little bit. I didn't come into it really with any foreknowledge of them, kind of crazy-looking monkeys from my perspective. But, yeah, hopefully it was good and interest. thing beyond that sort of very narrow content window that was my interest in talking about it. Right. All right. Well, again, looking forward to hearing that stuff and hearing about Langer.

Langers are cool looking. They kind of look mean with those big old eyebrows or overhang or whatever. They've always kind of been the mean-looking monkey. But yeah, they're cool looking. So IHS, I've never been to IHS, so this was my first meeting. And, you know, it's a little hard to justify the cost and expense and all that kind of thing and travel. I think they actually put me on the schedule to speak last year. And I wasn't able to do that. So I was glad to be able to go this year, a little closer. I could drive and stuff like that.

So, but yeah, Jordan mentioned he was going and then they asked me to speak. And I'm like, well, hey, if I can hurt with Jordan and then go talk at IHS. And this was a big one too. It was the 50th anniversary. And I felt like I was cheating a little bit, you know, going for this to be my first meeting. Jordan's been before. How's that experience been for you? They've been great.

The first time I went was speaking, and I think it was 2017, 2018, was a really cool opportunity for me to be in front of a group of people who certainly knew their names. They're on many of my books that are on my shelf behind me. And to be speaking on a topic that was very passionate for me back then, it was the Aspeditis. and you know I titled my my talk When a Man Loves a Woma and you know talked about all the misnomer's

all the things that have been published incorrectly about Aspeditis and there's no shortage of those but to do that in front of the likes of Harry Green and Dave Barker was supposed to have been there and wasn't so and then lots of other really phenomenal herpetologists and herptoculturists. So they've never, the other IHS meetings I've been to have,

have also been phenomenal, met some great people in Tennessee a couple years ago, meeting Roy and Roy Blodgett and Billy Spine and a lot of other guys, as well as getting to hang out with herpers who've had a tremendous amount of impact in my life, Craig Trumbauer and, and various authors.

like I mentioned. So, yeah, IHS has always been great, but there's no way I was going to miss the 50th. Just an incredible opportunity to not be missed. So, yeah. And then, of course, having it in rodeo, I mean, how do you, any excuse to get to rodeo, even if it's to herp in a lineup with 50, 60 other cars

on any given stretch of road at any given time. Right. It's still worth it. Yeah. I think that was the, the, I guess, pro and con of having the meeting in rodeo was fantastic, but also there's this, you know, herping, calling, hey, skip the meetings. Come, come find me. All the snakes, you just hear him calling to you. So that was the only, the tricky part was trying to balance going and

listening to the talks with when it was prime time to herp to stay in the building. So I think, I think we did a okay balance of it, maybe a little weighted on the herping side. I think you guys did. I did not. I saw in the auxiliary room, Dale's slideshow. I didn't get the audio accompaniment, but I did watch that from the auxiliary. Other than that, unfortunately, that's the only talk that I saw. I was hurting the rest of the time.

Yeah. You guys did better than I did, and trying to split the priorities on that. Right. You just love pain. Yeah, the areas you were focused on are the hardest to hurt, it seems. But, yeah. Well, the conversation around that has been, you know, people are willing to understate anything. And I'm curious on Jordan's take on this just for so many more years of exposure to that area, folks talking about it, all those things. People are willing to underestimate or understate the endeavor of anything. and I personally have never heard anyone say that that place didn't kick their ass. So that says something of itself. Well, also because of the mountain range you're choosing to hunt from there. If you spend more time going west of there.

It's not so bad, yeah. It's not so bad. And lots of really well-maintained trails, good roads to get to those trails. you're close enough to, you know, take a break midday in the heat of the day and grab a burger at the portal store or down at the Sky Islands grocer. But yeah, when you're in the Pelancio's, there's not a whole lot to do. You are definitely roughing it. And of course, you know, the, I think the reward, the potential rewards there are greater, but the amount of effort for each snake you find. certainly seems to be significantly, significantly more effort in the pelonsios per snake than

the Cherokee. I think it's also that you have very few to know easy steps. Like he can't sort of lose your focus at any point in time with all those hidden rocks. It's still, even sort of what would constitute probably the easier end of stuff, there are these hidden rocks every 12 to 18 to 24 inches that are four. to 12 to 18 inches across and are all too ready and willing to break an ankle or break your leg. And I just can't imagine so down at the battalion sign and all that. Trying to ride horses down there, I just would think he would be, that does not seem pleasant at the best of times.

Yeah, when you read that sign and realize that they dismantled all of their wagging, all their carts, and then ease them down by rope down that canyon. And I think it said that one of them, the ropes snapped or whatever, and they lost a ton of their stuff. And just I'm always in awe as I go to places, especially places that have somewhat modern history, you know, 200, 300 years ago. Because we certainly, you know, you go to places like Australia

and you see some of that rock art that's potentially 30, 40, 50,000 years. It's tough to relate to what life would have been that long ago, right? but when you're talking about people who are potentially the great great grandparents of people we know you know and it's it's lives of people um that that thought very much similarly to how we do and whatnot and they were going through there and cutting new trails throughout the american southwest and seeing some of those places for for the first time as as Europeans and in a rather wild country um i really dig that I really like being in those places. And it's tough that you can't get back into Skull and Skeleton Canyon,

the history of Geronimo, and you get back up in some of those really tight box canyons, and you're like, I could see how some well-trained Native warriors could hold off, you know, armed troops that were, yeah, that not just tenfold people, but multiple generations worth of technology better, right? Like their weaponry and everything else. And it's just like, yeah, you get into some of those spots and it's, I don't know, I just really kind of feel connected to the past and the land when you get out there. And as much as there's some interesting stuff when you're herping out east,

I know how much you love ticks and chiggers, Rob. There's something about the exposed geology to remind you of history. You know, nothing lasts. If you're like herping Tennessee or Georgia or Florida, anything that you're looking at is new within months to a couple of years. I mean, the grass, the weeds, the way the trees change, everything shifts and changes, and it's completely different. But you go out west where you've got rock structure that's ancient, predates life in some places.

That's a whole other ballgame, you know, when you get down to some of these places and you see dinosaur tracks that are just exposed. You're just, you know, you're chasing lizards as they're running through Theropod tracks and just north of Moab, you know, or you do that down in Australia or whatnot. You just get to round geology and you, I think, I appreciate the feeling of being small, you know, in the grand scheme of things. You get that feeling. It's the same kind of feeling as staring up on a perfectly black sky, moonless night and seeing the Milky Way. You know, there's just something about realizing we're ephemeral, we're tiny, and it kind of helps put into perspective why I'm out there and what I'm, you know, what I'm doing. It's not really about the herpes of the spiders. It's,

it's pretty, you know, I've said it before. I think it's, it's spiritual for me. There's something about being connected to eons that came before me and, you know, gives me a little bit of hope for the future ahead. Definitely second that, yeah. It was, it was really fun. Jordan and I made a plant stop in West Texas and we were looking at these really cool little living, you know, rock type plants and area carpus. Yeah, really cool. And then we started noticing like, I mean, I looked down and there's a seashell. It was like black like you'd just find a seashell on the shore.

And then it's like embedded in this rock. And then some of them are just the imprints of the shell. And I mean, we're just walking along in the same place we're finding these cool plants. We're finding ancient seashells on a sea shells. on the seashore, you know, from who knows how long ago. It was pretty amazing. It really puts you in respect. So cool.

Yeah. Yeah. And just to think of, you know, what's come and gone. And, you know, I guess that really, it's a motivation, but also like a longing or a desire to see what we have now, you know, to catch them before they're gone. Because that's the sad thing is, you know, some of these things are just disappearing. And whether it's our fault or just, you know, the way things work or, you know, Walmart's fault or whatever, you know, it's kind of like a driving force to just to get out there and experience these things before they're gone in some ways. But at the same time, like, they've lasted a long time, you know, some of these things have been around for millions of years themselves.

And so, you know, I guess there's not a huge hurry and we can enjoy and, you know, relax. enjoy the things that we see, but it is fun to get out there regardless of your motivation. And it was good to be out again. I didn't get out much this year, so this was a really great trip for me, even though it beat my body up a little bit. I got home and my lower back is just off. I don't know if it's a muscle thing or a nerve thing, but I can't bend down. I guess that's being old and driving and sleeping too little and driving too much. But it was worth it. Good stuff. Yeah. Do you want to walk through kind of, I'm even anxious to hear because we didn't, again, there were so many different polls going on that it felt like the last couple days I didn't even hardly see you guys despite the people who are staying at the same place. So you want to walk through your West Texas side, you know, side junket on the front end that I was not there for?

Yeah, sure. So I guess I'll start. So I left my house at like 4 a.m. and drove 17 hours. And the goal was to meet up with Jordan on the, you know, rock cuts right at dusk. But unfortunately, I wasn't going to make it far enough east and he wasn't going to make it far enough west at dusk. And so we made the call to just herb separately until we could find, you know, until we could meet up later that night after the herping had died down a bit. So right off. the bat. I was driving towards some some good spots, well-known spots, and there's a big snake right in the middle of the road, you know, swerved around it and came back, and it was just a beautiful sub-aq,

just sitting, laying them on the road, looked to be a gravid female, had those crazy little ticks at the end of the tail like you'll see in that species, but just a beautiful animal. I'm like, okay, I see why people get so excited about these things. They are gorgeous snakes. Wasn't a blonde or anything just to stock, you know, Sub-Ock, but fantastic. The downside, I got out of the car to get it off the road and to take some pictures, of course, and I was just annihilated by mosquitoes, other insects, like just out of nowhere. And I'm like, I mean, it was to the point where, like, they drive you.

insane type thing where I'm slapping my arms and seeing smears of blood on my arms and legs. And I had shorts on, you know, because I don't remember there being bugs in West Texas too bad, like, you know, biting mosquitoes and things. So here I'm just slapping myself trying to take a picture in between the, you know, clearing of the mosquitoes. And I got a, you know, a couple okay, okay, girl, you're, you're not going to get a very long photo shoot tonight because I can't handle these bugs. And so I ran back to the car and took off and didn't have any more insects the whole trip for the most part, you know, except for maybe in one of the canyons, in the palanseos. But so, yeah, that was really fun, but annoying first find. It would have been nice to have taken

photos without the disturbance of the mosquitoes. And trying to get that thing to stay still on flat land was impossible. So luckily there was like a little rock face or a, a cut right nearby so I could proper up on the rocks and get some photos and things. So very fun way to start the night. And then drove on into Boy Scout and saw a couple A-trocks, a few frogs. The frogs were calling. So that was kind of fun to hear all the frogs. There was a lot of water in the canyon, which was nice. And then I'd meant to go to a different area first, but my maps routed me where it thought I needed to go first or whatever. And it worked out okay.

But over on the second spot, I walked around a bit but didn't see much. And then it was time to meet up with Jordan. So that was my first night of herping. And then you had a little similar or maybe a little more success than I did. So we're doing. You know, my trip wasn't quite as long. I think I had nine hours of drive. So significantly less, but got tied up with clients and other stuff going on at home and

make sure their reptiles were fine for the trip. And I met up with Ewan Edwards from Queensland, Australia. And we met up in the eastern part of the Transpecos and had a pretty fantastic evening. It's one of my favorite invertebrate spots. We got to see some of my favorite spiders and show an Australian are humble, Huntsman spiders that we have on our cuts Nowhere near the behemoth holtonias that we see in the mountains of South Australia and whatnot But it was cool to get him out there and get him his first

I think he was his first atrox his first sub hoc first lepidus first You know I mean he's he's done a little bit of herping in Texas before but it just happened to be one of those nights where we just were taking boxes and so Blacktail Rattlesnake and And it was, yeah, it was pretty good. And then when I, when herping was done, took him back to his vehicle. And I got on the freeway and headed west. And man, the snakes were moving all over the freeway. Another sub-lock, a blacktail rattlesnake or two.

And, I mean, stuff was just popping. So it was made for a good first night. Of course, like you said, the mosquitoes, we didn't have any mosquitoes out east, but the amount of standing water from the recent storms was interesting. I've never quite seen the prickly pear, you know, half covered in water for acres and acres on either side of the road. It was pretty neat to see that much water out there. So, yeah, it was hopeful for some stuff moving, and indeed there was. So that was great.

Kind of half wish we could have spent a little more time out east. But west is the direction. of IHS so we did that. Yeah. Next day we went looking for a white whale of mine and finally landed that white whale, but

it was driving along, seeing some good, you know, Texas horn lizards. That's always fun. They're really neat animals. Saw a really bright green what are they, grasshopper,

he did feeding on a DOR horn lizard, which was kind of gruesome. Jordan thought he saw it laying eggs in the carcass or something. So, yeah, I'm not sure that the middle of the road is the best place to nest for anything. But, yeah, and then we came upon probably one of the nicest Mojave's I've seen. That thing was really beautiful. Yeah, Mojave green. But yeah, it was pretty behaved as well like sat. I mean, Croats usually do pretty good job of sitting for photos for the most part.

So I got some good pictures of that. And then just about just on dusk, we Jordan straddled the snake and ran back. And it was what I'd hope to see. There's many, many trips out in their habitat. at and finally got a live hog mouse. So that was really cool, Mexican hog mouse. I know Rob's been really rubbed it in my face that he's seen in the southern and plains. This is the one he needs, though.

Yeah, I don't know. Together we make a full set. Yeah, exactly. I don't know that I would say that that's the context that it's been set in. No, it is. Hopefully it's been encouraging, right? Yeah. But, yeah, now you have the one that I need.

So it's still. And you'll get it. I mean, we were so close. I mean, you got a pretty fresh DOR in, yeah, in the area. So you almost completed the set. But, yeah. It's the one thing I, it's like when I found a Southwest carpet python before Matt Somerville. You know, it's like the one, okay, I've got him on that one, but everything else he's got me.

No, it's a. Just a little razin there up. Sorry. I figured it would come. That's okay. Jordan only saw a handful of them over the course of the week. So that's fine. Yeah.

Yeah, you've got two live ones. Yeah. And that one that I thought was a squashed one was not a, it wasn't a hog nose. I noticed later that didn't have black belly scales. And, well, it was somebody that corrected me on INAT. Like, no, that's not a hog nose, you moron. He was a little croat. So I'm like, how did I not notice that?

But I know how. I had sleep deprivation, but, yeah. Extreme sleep deprivation. Yeah. And then cruised around. Unfortunately, Jordan did most of the driving in his nice vehicle. It's not only heats but cools. Very, very helpful for, you know, it's almost makes it difficult to go back to my vehicle after riding in his

because it's so comfortable and nice. But yeah, we kind of stayed around that same area up Fort Davis area, right? Yep. Yep. Davis College. Yeah. And saw more frogs, a lot of scorpions, a lot of tarantulas and, you know, cool spiders out on the faces. Got a couple crotes as well.

Blacktail, atrocks. Yeah. What are your recollections of that evening? That was... It was fairly snaky that night, right? Yeah. We got another sub-lock that night, too. Yeah. Yeah.

The second night, right? Yeah. Was that the night we saw the Emery Rat Snake as well? Yep, you got your Emery Rat. Yeah, that was another lifer. Yeah. That was a good night. And those Ornatus there are stunners.

They're so cool. Yeah. That was probably the, well, aside from Atrox, that was probably the most common trip or snakes of the trip where the Blacktail rattlesnakes got to see both Eastern and Western, which is always fun. Yeah, the Easterns in West Texas and the Westerns in the rodeo area. But beautiful snakes. It's hard to beat how nice a Blacktail looks. Yeah, yeah, they're incredible. Yeah. And whether or not, you know, the Easterns or Westerns are better. I'm sure that that's a debate for another time. Indeed. Yeah, and congratulations on the Emery's. So, unfortunately, I have seen those.

That's not a plus one for you, but the Sub-Ack and to have multiples is very cool. Somehow, I've been out there three times and haven't seen one, which it's coming to seem more and more shocking, right? The more people are trying them up as kind of, it's almost like the ubiquitous calibre beyond the Naqshlanga out there, right? which is surprising. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, as far as Calubrid's, like, I've always, like, kind of missed out on the Calubrid's except for this trip. This trip's been, was a very Calubrid heavy trip, which was nice for a change.

I mean, I love seeing Croats. You know, that's one of my favorite targets, but seeing some clubrid's was definitely a plus out there. So, yeah, good stuff. Was that Emory's pretty big? It looks like it may be from the photo. Yeah, it was an adult. I mean, I wouldn't say it was gargantuan for the species, but I don't know the species very well.

Yeah, Emery's don't tend to get as big as their cousins out east, but it was a fair size adult. I'd say average size adult, yeah. Fair enough. The one I had seen was probably an inaneate, so that's why I just don't have context for them. Yeah, yeah. Do you get those around you, Rob? There's the old Inter-Montana, which I regrettably have. not seen. Okay. Yeah, I haven't seen them in Utah. I mean, we went looking for them in Utah as well.

They just kind of come into the very eastern edge of the state, you know, and in a few miles. But, yeah, one of these days I'll see a Utah one as well. But good to tick off the species at least. But yeah, the next day found us heading down to, well, we went looking for hog-nows again. just saw a bunch of the horned lizards yeah everywhere yeah they were they were all over the place oh we did get a coach whip was that the day we got there was that that was that that was the day before yeah i got out to see a cornutum and like i look in the grass and there's this huge coach where there was a ground squirrel that ran into the bushes that then a coach whip took off and i'm chasing the coach whip and jordan's probably like no the horn lizard's on the road i'm like running through the grass like

Just trying to see if I can catch up with this thing. But of course, it dusted me. And I went back to the horn lizard. But yeah, it was a fun little stop there. But yeah, this morning was pretty much just horn lizards. I don't know that we saw too much else. And then headed down. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, that's right. For better or worse. We were driving down that road when it turns dirt. And I looked over along the first. fence line and there's this carcass right and I see these huge you know horns and that looked like a big horn but uh like Jordan's like that's an odd ad like that's a um it's an invasive into Texas and they hunt them quite frequently and so I'm like do you care if I take that skull he's like go ahead I pick it up and out spews forth maggots and beetles and whatever else is chewing on the

inside of an odd ad skull so pretty nasty and uh yeah jordan was very nice to let me put in the bed of his truck for a bit until we uh fastened it to the top of my vehicle to uh keep me married that was the main part was to make sure i didn't have my wife leave me when i got home because the vehicle smelled of dead oddad but um so yeah i drove around with that the whole whole trip after that on the top of the car and it made it home You know, it was a conversation started with Kim Fish. That was good. For sure.

Yeah. George, are those introduced into Texas for hunting purposes? What's that all about? Yeah, I'm fairly certain them with all the other African stuff you see in West Texas is just escapes from high fence hunting branches. So it's pretty neat to come around a corner and see in Ivex or a, you just never know what you're going to see. Impala or some Kudu or Black Buck or

Zebrae. Yeah, I remember one of my indigo spots and I'm like driving around the corner and there's a water buffalo standing in the middle of the road. I was like, you've got to be kidding me. It'd be hard to keep those contained. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, you never know what you're going to see when you're in Texas. Right. It's pretty, pretty cool. It'd be hard to keep those fences like intact. You know. Yeah.

Yeah. And then we headed south down to River Road to go, go cruising down there. And it was a little warm, to say the least. But we had a nice time looking at the plants and the fossils. Those succulents down there are second and on. They're really cool, cool, different, you know, different cacti. And Yucca and the Okatio were bright green, very nice. to look at. So it was really green

down there too, for the most part. You know, at least further north in respect this as well. It was pretty warm. It wasn't quite that hot at night, but hot enough to have a snake escape me. But we were driving that canyon, that little

box canyon we went with Eric and Owen. And we were walking down on that trail and I'm like, oh, it's a greater earless lizard and I'm all geeking out and you guys are like, it's just a dumb lizard. Let's go. I sat and took pictures and I was all excited. And so I'm like, oh, yeah.

I think arguably one of those beautiful lizards in North America for sure. But we, so I'm like, hey, Jordan, let's swing by this parking lot, you know, to go see if we can see these lizards. And we drive in there. He's like, there's one right there. It was just on the boulder next to the bathrooms, you know. sitting in the parking lot waiting for us. And I mean, this thing was just like, yeah, Jordan had his 400 millimeter lens. And it was too close to get a good picture with the long lens.

And I mean, I was getting better pictures with my cell phone, I think, than with the real camera. Because they just walk right up to you, sit on a rock, do some push-ups and display and stuff. And then I noticed there was another one. Like he went over and kind of hassled this other one. It was really dark colored. And then a little while later, I was filming, you know, this brilliant male running around. And he ran over to this other rock and there was one on top of it that was doing this crazy, you know, display dancing, flailing his limbs and his tail and stuff. And then the bigger guy chased him off and he took off.

And rightly so because that male had him outweighed by probably double. He was a big boy. So that was fun to watch that tell. I mean, pretty much just on sunset. So it was perfect timing, really nice lighting. And yeah, I got some really great shots of that. I'm excited to post those up or share that with others because what a gorgeous lizard. If they were a foot longer, they'd probably be the most popular lizard in herpeticulture.

For sure. Those underappreciated beauties, right? I think it was, it's on the cover of what's the name of the lizards of the Southwaters? West book. I've got it on the shelf. I'm trying to see the correct title. But yeah, really cool. Cool lizards. Then we started road cruising and had some fun with scorpions. What was that big black scorpion that was down there? Yeah, it's the diplocentrist, what do you? Yeah, beautiful, just large black scorpion. Kind of reminiscent of the, what's the one in the pet trade, the emperors? Emperor scorpion. It kind of looked like,

an emperor scorpion. It's pretty fun. Some bark scorpions. That one, that was an interesting one that you found. Yeah, there was, you're referring to the one that was like on the top of the stock of graphs. Yeah. It was the weirdest thing.

I thought it was stuck in a web, but it's a pretty large yellow scorpion. I'm pretty sure that ended up being Chihuahuanensis, I think. But, yeah, essentially it looked like it was. hanging on the top of a blade of grass waiting for insects to climb up the grass and it was just having its way with them there which certainly is different from the diplocentrist that we saw backed into crevices with just their their pincers and mandibles hanging out of these tight little crevices so what a what a trip yeah i think we got five species of scorpion that night

So they were, they were crawling for sure. Yeah, yeah, it was a really an exciting thing and fun to see the diversity. Again, this goes back to appreciating what you've got, you know, even if the reptiles aren't, the snakes aren't crawling. You're seeing cool scorpions, cool other wildlife out there. We got a brevus, a little banded gecko out there, really pretty individual. and a large adult. And then a skunk. I think this was a lifer for me.

I'm not sure the exact species. I think it's a hog nose or a hooded. I think that was the hooded skunk. Yeah. Yeah. But just brilliant white top. Jordan didn't want to get his truck too close for some reason. I'm not sure why.

I'm like, go closer. No. Fair. I was just trying to keep him in the head. That's all. Jordan's lighting is a pretty nice thing too. He's got these lights that just light up the whole thing. It's like searching in daylight.

So it made it really nice for herping. What are the really flat? Are those the huntsmen's, the flat ones with the stripy legs? No, that's so that's Selenops. That's the, I don't know that they've got a common name, but the family is called the flat spiders or the flaties. Okay. It's one of those things flaties doesn't sound too.

Sounds like an Australian term. Right? But that's actually when you look at that spider family. They're known as the flaties. But the Selenops are really neat there. I think the ones down in Big Bend probably are actifilus versus the ones further west, which are Selenops debilus. But there's, I think in the.

Eastern and West Texas area. There's some papers going around and they're worried about them not being what everything else is. So I don't know if there's several cryptic species in there or what's going on. But every time you post them as Actifilus, someone will jump in there and

take it back to the genus level and be like, well, we don't know what's there. It's like, well, let's just call them Actifilus until someone figures it out. And we can look at regionally where they are and reassign them. Right. Right. It doesn't do any good just to take them back to the genus level and it's more annoying than anything, you know.

Yeah. It leaves, yeah, rubs me the wrong way. And they're not even German. Right. Yeah. Yeah, one of the things I really love about that species, that Selenops species is they are virtually identical to the flatties in Australia that are common throughout much of Australia. The pattern, the shape, everything, they just look identical. Like when we were in the McDonald's, the East McDonald's, I saw several. And I was like, wow, these look just like the ones in Texas.

And I just kept thinking, well, I'll just take a picture the next one. And it wasn't quite in a good place. And I was like, oh, the next one. And then it wasn't a great place. And then we started seeing the Gahira and Oydura. And then the spiders were gone. So the one thing that West Texas doesn't have is Gahira and Odura. Right.

Or I bet those sellinops would be a lot less common. But yeah, those cuts, it's hundreds of them on every cut, you know. That's cool. Well, I'll let you tell about the next big find. That was another lifer for me, very exciting. Yeah, and while not a lifer for me, it kind of felt that way because it's a species I'd never targeted because they were, one, they were protected. And I think we're getting too much attention from herpers anyways and I'd already seen them. And so I just kind of have always felt like I'd leave well enough alone with them.

And just, you know, you'd come across them as incidental finds. But it was somewhat of a target for this trip because we knew going into the River Road that they hadn't had rain in a while. Temperatures were scorching hot. And as I always say, the River Road is my favorite place to get skunked. So I figured after we got skunked in the River Road, we'd go give these guys a swing. So we went after the Big Ben reticulated geckos. and went to a spot and got out and started walking. And we're just admiring all the scorpions we're seeing in

and we're not seeing much else. And then this beautiful juvenile, you know, black and white tail. There's such an incredible collionics. You know, when you're used to seeing Brevis and Vergaata and, you know, the typical ones we have in the U.S., these things are so much bigger, their tails longer, thinner. They're just a very different animal from what you're used to. So, yeah, that was really neat.

Yeah, they're pattering. The Angramanue equivalent, right, ecological, angriamon you of the cold unix. Yeah, they've extended body. Look a lot like a leopard gecko. Yeah, the pattern also, this kind of spotted pattern. Jordan did find a juvenile and an adult, so that was really cool to kind of compare the two. The juveniles had these faded bands that were really neat looking. It was a cool looking animal for sure.

If you didn't know better, you would think it's two different species, right? They're so different from each other. But yeah, the adults were just like leopard geckos on the ground. That's pretty cool. Yeah. Pretty cool. Amazing. Yeah, getting to see those and just watch them crawl across the face of the cut was really.

really great experience. I even saw found a brevus on the top of the cut, a juvenile brevus, this, you know, nice stripy looking juvenile, but very cool. Are they, they do co-occur, which is interesting. Yeah. Yeah, what is the partitioning that supports that or is a, I don't know. Yeah, you know, that's interesting because like when you look at Swataka and like Anzabarego area and sitting on top of the bandits.

their got it and whatnot it's i i don't know what's really separating them um it is odd to find such similar animals that right on top of each other but also the how small the range is for reticulatus right like they're just they're definitely specialists i don't know what their specialists are maybe or of rather um you know maybe they just love eating those diplocentress or something but you know why i don't know what's so different about like the christmas mountain cuts or the black gap cuts and then you just go to the next cuts 20 miles north and they're not there or never never been observed there and you'll see brevice at both right and that's the part or at all across the range yeah right right and there's not very many things that that end there it's kind

of a strange thing you know frequently go to places and it's like oh yeah this is everything changes here like when you're going across the colorado river from california to arizona And it's like, oh, there's swaros and Gila monsters are plentiful and there's, you know, microides and blacktails and all of a sudden the whole world changes when you cross that river. And there's nothing to real, that really changes there that's obvious to me. So, yeah, I really don't know. I found that quite interesting. One of the comments I did make is, you know, that area carpus fissuratus, the,

little living rock cactus that we were looking at, their range somewhat overlaps those too. So I don't know if there's anything to that, but quite frequently I think good indicator species are more oftentimes plants and whatnot for a lot of the species we look at. There's something about what it takes for them to thrive that we can certainly learn from.

But yeah, it's just one of those species that, like I said, have always been incidental, but to actually go and look for them now that they've been delisted and knowing that Justin hadn't seen them and I haven't got any good photos of them. You know, it's probably been 18 years since the last time I've saw one. So to go down there and get a juvenile and an adult and get to photograph those one back to the other, make a couple of potentially noteworthy observations with them that maybe we'll talk about at some point in the future. But really, really cool animals. Yeah. That was a fun, fun find.

Yeah, I was really geeked out by that. They're the largest native gecko in the United States, right? Yeah, you'll find they're slightly larger than Swatokai, the Baraphoekko. Yeah, very cool. Then back up north and got another Aetrox, of course, on the dry back, as well as a Texas toad. Poor thing had this gnarled back leg that had been hit. something and it was just hopping along looked like it was happy as could be i guess toads maybe their their friendly nature and friendly looks uh belie their pain but i guess be like a toad

ignore the pain and hop on but uh yeah i don't know toads are always fun they're really cool yeah um so yeah that was the the uh herping out west for the most part the Next day found us driving over to rodeo. Did I miss anything else? I don't think so. I think that was it, right? And then into the deserts around rodeo and portal and all that good stuff. First night of herping, he yielded some more cool toads.

We got the always impressive snoring desert toad. the giant beautiful toads out there. They have these really cool red markings on their backs, little red spots, and just, I mean, an impressive size, like cane toad size, you know, huge toads really. They don't like to sit still for photos, which is a frustrating thing, and they can cover a lot of ground pretty quickly, can disappear pretty quick. And then the Spadefoot, the couch of spade foot they're always nice to look at really yellow got a another species of toad on the same night which was the um remind me cognatus woodhouse yeah no yeah the great lanes the great plains yeah yeah so really uh it could have been any woodhouse it did have the stripe

down the back i i don't know i was split on i think it did key out as cognatus but and And of course. And it was a little bit. Yeah. I used to seeing that. Right. Yeah. And a little A-Rox.

Don't forget about that. Yeah. The baby H-Rox snuck in there as well, as well as another snoring toad. So then to our wonderful Airbnb for some nice relaxing sweat lodging. Yeah. But it was a cool, cool spot, you know, like cool. meeting neat. And once we got the air flowing, it was all right.

I want to know how many times Nick hit his head on the ceiling fan, though. I don't know why that made me chuckle, but sorry, Nick. I turned it on as he had gone up under it, and I thought, well, presumably he'll watch for it. And within seriously 10 seconds, it smacked him in the head. Yeah. And then he went to move to avoid it. and it got him again. Oh, no.

I shouldn't laugh. Sorry. Well, he had had so much luck on that trip. You know, he needed a good thumping, I guess, to keep him grounded. Yeah. All right. Well, the next morning, we set off for the Palencio's to go look around. Scope out a new spot Rob had discovered and see what we could find.

find and on the drive out. So we separated. Jordan was with Robert and we were with Rob and Nick. And so headed out in separate vehicles. So we were a little bit ahead of you guys. And we got a really nice big snoring gopher snake on the way out. Just this. It was kind of funny because we stopped for a rock that we thought might have been a phryanosoma. And then I saw something ahead in the road. I'm like, is that what it? That's like garbage or something? Like a tire or something? It was this big thing in the road. We drove, oh, that's a snake. That's a snoring gopher. And, yeah, it was pretty good size. A little laundry, but, yeah. Real cool head and neck pattern, though, on it. Yeah, it was a beautiful snake. I think one of the largest ones I've seen, too. It was

quite big. I mean, not a very good snake or something, but yeah, sure. Right, right. Yeah, that's true. In perspective for a gopher. That being said, I wish we were five minutes later because Jordan. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, when the hog nose are moving, the hog nose are moving. And the Modestum.

You guys didn't see either of those species, right? No. See the round tails either. No. Yeah. I missed out after I left after we parted ways as well, that second. day. I went and drove that dirt road again and didn't see any then either. So I missed out on. Other than that, DOR, no modestum for me. Another one I really would like to see. I love the phranosoma.

They're just so cool. And I really haven't seen that many species of them. So it'd be neat to see a couple more in their digs. But, yeah. Absolutely. So as we were heading down, And we did get another big A-Tracks, but the cool thing about those when you're heading down that way is they pick up this sort of a pinkish-purpleish look to them with faded patterning that you can find down in there as well. So there was a big one of those. It was cool that was alive, and then there was another one that was hit, right? But, yeah, I mean, those are neat. A-tracks certainly are super variable, and you see the Klein into Ruber, you know, is what it always reminds me, Rubber really just our red at Atrox, you know, that's that super red and, you know, an amplification of this form that we're seeing down in the pelvis.

Yeah. And then hiking over the mountain, Nick spooked a rhinosoma Hernandez's eye, the shorthorn mountain lizard. Really cool-looking lizard and was missing his tail for some reason. It looked like it'd gotten bit off or something. He was a survivor up there, just this old bruiser. about as big as they get, big female. And then once we got over the mountain, we saw a couple blackneck garter snakes down by the water. Some smart mosquitoes in that canyon.

They knew to land on the back of your arms and, you know, sneak attack so you couldn't get to them as quickly. So I had about a dozen bites on each back of my arm there. So I don't know. They're getting too smart, I guess. That's kind of a dangerous thing. And then your typical scleroprists. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Tadpoles were everywhere. And those garters were going after those. Yeah. And there were some morphing toadlets as well hopping out. Their little tails behind them. So, yeah, there was plenty of, you know, garter snake food down there for sure. And lots of good stuff.

The scloporus were pretty thick in the canyon as well. So that was a good sign. But unfortunately, we've been in some spots down there where you just hardly see anything at all of any kind. And it doesn't seem super promising. Other times, you know, this seemed more promising just in the sense that there was invertebrates, there was birds, there was lizard action, the garter snakes, the toads, the canyon tree frogs, those things. So, yeah, there was some promise to that. I will say in sort of the prototype fashion that looking at topographic maps doesn't always quite do justice, particularly in a rough terrain, bushwhacking in a rough terrain, so that the mountain that you so casually referred to us going up and over and then having to come back up and over, you know, wound up being a little more work than I anticipated. Yeah, the hike out was definitely worse than the hike in.

But, yeah, that was brutal. I don't know. I guess it's the anticipation of going in somewhere. You know, you're excited to get in there and see stuff. But, yeah, that wore me out pretty good. I was pretty spent the later that day. And we had gone out there later maybe than we intended, you know, we were trying to figure out what day made the most sense.

Right. Because the talks were going and stuff and you didn't want to miss any of them. So it was, hey, how do we want to fit this in? So we got out there. right at the start of the heat of the day. And so it was 98, 99 degrees, whatever that was. And then pretty much the whole time we were there. And we did about four and a half hours out there all around.

Jordan, you guys went to a different, slightly different area within the same context. You and Robert. What was it like? Same results. Yeah. Yeah, it's virtually the same thing, you know, garter snakes and mosquitoes and not a whole lot else. So I think I don't know if that makes this more, I wouldn't say risk averse, but effort averse or if we were just smarter than you guys. So while you guys were still hiking out of there, we were enjoying some absolutely amazing tacos down in Douglas.

But no, yeah, we put in a couple hours in there and just along the main creek and just seeing what we're. was going on because those are areas that, you know, historically have have been very snakey areas. And so it was interesting to just see how different that's been from years gone past. And, you know, always a little bit disheartening after multiple forest fires cut through an area. Yeah. It's just a very different world. But, uh, right.

So that looks, that looked like below the road or above the road 20 years ago, something like that. You wouldn't not so radically different, right? It has a radically different look to it now. Yeah, I'm surprised that it hasn't grown back, you know, where, yeah, the fires go through, but you'd think that area is used to fires, but man, these must have just been catastrophic fires. Right, because there's just no seedling, you know, oak trees or anything like that. It's just, yeah, it's just dead. Like, you got you both pulled fires in a row, right?

Right. Yeah. Year over year. Yeah. That's just frustrating to see it altered so, you know, unrecognizably or something. So it's a bummer. Now you've got to cross a mountain to find that good habitat again. Or two. Yeah. Right.

Well, that night was a little interesting. The talks were great. I mean, that was the day that Rob was talking about with the Heelamon. Monster Talk by Dale De Nardo and hearing about his observations and thoughts around Heelah's and their water usage. Just the fact that they are not a typical lizard, as you would think of a desert lizard. They kind of break all the desert lizard rules to some extent. They're almost more like a snake than a lizard in many ways. Yeah, I like how he presented that, right?

Yeah, about how they're, you know, he brought up the question, are they maladapted, you know, Are they kind of remnants of an old, of a different world, and they don't belong there anymore, and we're just kind of seeing a species die out, or is there more than meets the eye? Because certainly, as we think of, you know, lizards, and it's like, oh, yeah, these things that love 115-degree to 130-degree basking spots and on the heat of the day, sitting on the top of the highest rock, and have these tight little home ranges and stirring around eating insects. and that's certainly not the life of a Gila monster. Right. You know, I thought that was really well put together how he had it done.

Interesting to see, you know, hear from studies and compare that to personal experience with a species in the field and to compare notes. You know, there's certainly some things that were said that it was like, huh, that doesn't match. But obviously, I've got my, my N is a lower. number than theirs. And also some of those study sites are, you know, they're frequently are, you know, one population here or one population there. And I have not, I'm not, my Heila experience isn't very deep. It's more broad. You know, I've seen them in, in three different states now. And, you know, just seen a handful and lots of different locations versus, you know, some of those study sites have produced, you know, hundreds over the years of a study, you know,

in one type location. So, yeah, it was, it was interesting to see that. I certainly has me thinking more about some of what I thought to be true for them. Right. Yeah. Interesting. And we're also introduced to the evaporative cloacal cooling, which was a new concept for me. Apparently if they... But you've never tried that? Well, you know. It's the best way to get UV rays and get vitamin D numbers up. I don't know if perennial basking is the same thing as their perennial basking. But yeah, they will pop out kind of the, if they reach their thermal maxima,

they pop out those vascular features around their cloaca and actually the expel water in some way or have water evaporate from them to cool them down. Kind of like a dog panting. But the other end. They're just changing the ringtone. So apparently they have kind of high water loss rates because of their cooling process to kind of cool them down. So that was one of the ideas of how they're not a typical lizard where the thermal maximal maxima for most lizards is well above what you know they're there at the very low end even

off the chart that um he showed in his talk dale showed and um so they don't get their water from their food either like a lot of lizards do so that was kind of interesting they have to drink but they do a pretty good job of storing that uh water in their bladder and if they have a water store in their bladder then that means they're going to do okay you know they they can uh survive pretty drastic conditions. So lots of definitely interesting factoids from that talk. He talked about in captivity, they would give them 50 mils of water once a month, and that's good enough to kind of top off their bladder storage and have them do okay for them for the month. Pretty amazing lizards for sure. And that's another one that we spent quite a bit of time looking for and didn't get lucky

on this trip again. Jordan saw one last time he was out there and got to see a New Mexico Gila, but still hoping I get to have that opportunity at some point. We spent a lot of time in that place, just have not had the luck of seeing a Gila. So what do you do? We just keep going. Right. Right. Gordon Shoeick gave a really nice talk. I can't remember if it was the same day or a different day, but he talked about long-term sperm storage and different snake species. And it seems like the basal lineages earlier than acrochordiday, the file snakes, don't really have a mechanism for long-term sperm storage. Whereas clobrids and clobroids have, what do they call them, the storage area. is. Do you remember what those are called?

I don't. Oh, sperm storage tubules. That's what they are called. Our president, some of those more recently evolved species. So kind of cool. Interesting to think about it. I always thought that there was good evidence that pythons did that, but I guess not. It was very slim pickings when you looked for that in the literature. But that was a cool talk as well. Well, what else? What was? Went out and cruised a cool carmelie blacktail and then went out to the desert. After talking with the fish and wildlife, they were in full force out there. Yeah. Interested in your skull situation. Yeah. Your permit situation? Yeah. Yeah, he said,

hey, y'all got your permits? And I'm like, yep. And then I started to drive on. He's like, can we see them? And I'm like, oh. I don't have one, but this guy does. And I'm not touching anything, but he might. Like, I didn't know there would be follow-up questions. No further questions then? We're out of here. But, yeah, it was quite entertaining.

They were all right. They weren't too. But I did hear that they were pulling across to crocheted Gila monster across the road to try to entrap foolish troopers. Yeah. So they were out there with them. New Mexico guys. Yeah, that was New Mexico crew. I think that's the difference between, yeah, the Arizona guys seem to be out more to show that they're there and, you know, to just talking to people and it sounded like New Mexico took a different tack and was pulling fake snakes across the road, the fake heila and whatnot.

So, Jack was describing it as a, what, a blow-up hila monster that was three and a half foot long or whatever. And, yeah, he had to pull his kid into the car, you know, when he comes to stop, he's staring like. Like, what are they even doing? And the kid, you know, just the enthusiasm, excitement of a teenager starts hopping out. And he has to grab him by the scruff and say, do not get out of the car. That whole conversation was interesting. I think his eyes have been open to some of that. Maybe we'll have to do a follow up.

He was mentioned a willingness to maybe follow up on some of that. Yeah. You know, I think it's worth a brief conversation about because I was disappointed. It's one thing when, you know, there's, it's the heat of herping, you know, the prime herping season and there's five or six, you know, dedicated herpers out in the area, maybe some less ethical than others that are collecting stuff that maybe they shouldn't have and or shouldn't be and whatnot. It's one thing for them to be out there in that situation. This felt a little bit, I don't know, a little bit icky.

to have them out there. A little gauche, right? Right? You know, especially because of such a big part of IHS is the junior herpers. And we're getting these kids out there and we're showing them, you know, some amazing stuff. And I mean, might someone have done something illegal out there potentially? I guess that's a possibility. It's not the crew that I would certainly expect that from.

Might, you know, this or that. Sure, all that's possible. But I guess that kind of goes to my, Live and Let Live philosophy, we really need the next generation to be passionate about nature. And every time we get in between that when we let, you know, legislation and red tape and the ignorance of enforcement without understanding what and why they're enforcing, it just it makes me worry that they're doing a dramatic amount of disservice to the future of reptile conservation by allowing those things to happen or by implementing enforcement in those ways.

I was disappointed to see it. I understand the need for enforcement. Sure. But that didn't seem like the way to do it. Yeah. And I always say I welcome enforcement because then there's evidence or documentation that I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm just out there to enjoy the wildlife. I'm not trying to collect things.

And I, and I, you know, I'm, I hope that at least with the rising generation that, that, uh, drive to collect everything and to turn stuff over for money is, is kind of leaving the hobby. I would hope so. I mean, I'm sure it's still there in some form or another. But with the younger generation, hopefully they're saying, oh, there's just not really a use for this or a need for this, you know. But at the same time, like once in a while, collection is is important you know right expand our genetic uh base and things like that so i don't know

it's a tricky thing you know i've collection has always been kind of a you know i when i was a kid i wanted to collect everything i found because i just was so excited about it i wanted to experience that every day you know and it's right in some ways it's it's a it's not the same you know experiencing them in the wild is not the same thing as looking at them in a in a fish tank or in a, you know, even an elaborate setup, you know, unless you have a big room, that might be a different thing, you know, sitting and watching. But it's still not. And that's why we don't count those to our life list, right? There's something about that observation. And to the point of seeing those big ben geckos and making some observations there, there's things that you just come across when you see things in nature that if you're observant can can make a difference. And you can, you can see. you can and it's just i don't know i i i um really worry for places that are making it difficult for our youth to get out there and to appreciate what's you know what's in our natural world so but i think what you said about the junior herper program and i mean that that was one of the most encouraging

things about the meeting was seeing the number and the excitement level of these junior herpers out there. And also seeing all the money that was raised to support that program. And I mean, that's, that's the whole thing. And I think, you know, they had a big panel and we can talk about this in a minute, but all the old, old school herpers and the kind of the pioneers. But that was kind of their observation is like, we need to, you know, help this new generation learn how to do it and do it right. Right. Yeah, I mean, that was really the, thing that stuck out from the proceedings for me was the three items were one. It's that the new junior herpers and seeing those candles that have been lit and just how

excited they are for the future ahead of them. The second thing was seeing some of those junior herpers one time, you know, award winners from decades past, be back there as herpetologists who are actually contributing to the science and who are making things happen and traveling. Some of them traveling the world, some of them doing it tied to universities, some doing it on their own and having that personal passion for it. And really seeing that was awesome as well. But then, to your point, that panel and having all the old folks come up there and talk about the way it used to be, especially the ladies, you know, Kathy Love and trying to blank on the other lady's name. But talking about how underrepresented women have been historically and how that's just not so much the case anymore.

And are there still some maybe some relic boundaries and whatnot? Sure. But it's such a different landscape than what those women were dealing with and decades gone by. So it was really neat to kind of pull all that together and see everybody under one roof and see field her. herptoculturists and herpetologists being able to have conversations and with minimal, if any, posturing and this and that. It was pretty fantastic. Yeah.

Chris Rocher, is that Rocher? Is that her name? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, that was the one that I wasn't familiar with. I'd heard of the others. Well, Lonnie McCaskill, I didn't know very well either. but the other names I think so the panelists were Bob Applegate David Barker Rich Elye Kathy Love Lonnie McCaskill Frank Redis

Chris Rosher Gary Ciperley and Craig Trumbauer so quite a quite a list of folks really need to hear their stories and kind of things from back in the day and say what you will about Mike Clarkson but being able to keep that conversation, that discussion on point and ended on time was nothing short of miraculous. Yeah. I know at least half that panel fairly well and have spent quite a many hours while they're sipping their favorite beverage at the end of shows or out at their place after herping or whatnot.

And those conversations thankfully always run long form to the extreme. But to be able to get them all on the same stage and kind of, feeding off of each other and go in and answer those questions. It was, you know, I could have listened to that for six more hours, but I think it was time just right. And, you know, it worked out well. And Mike did an amazing job handling the situation. Yeah.

Well, and I mean, I was really happy to meet Craig Trumbauer. I know he means a lot to you, and you guys have a really great relationship there and with your families. And so that was neat to be kind of pulled into that, I get to know him a little bit and also to sit at the table with David Barker and remind me the other gentleman at our table. Gary Keisler. Gary Keesler, yeah. Just hearing those guys chat and hearing their stories was, I mean, they've got some fun stories to tell.

So it was, I mean, sit next to the favorite table. It was a fantastic table. And I think what really I got a kick out of was just Dave Barker. And he would, he would, he was just laughing at everything, like just a very jovial, happy guy, you know. That's great. You enjoyed all the, all the presentations, all the speakers and things. You just see him, you know, get a kick out of just about everything. It was really, really cool.

Yeah. Yeah. I love Dave. And, you know, so many of us know him from, you know, various different ways. And I'd love seeing some of his commentary on INAW. We talk about that from time to time. And he's certainly as opinionated as the rest of us and has as much ego as anybody else. But he's, but jovial, yes, and a good soul, absolutely.

And he's a student of the world around him. I mean, he's as excited and interested to hear what some young Herper asked to say about some observation they had as he is about someone who's published dozens of books. And that's not something that we frequently see in some of the older guys who've seen it and done it. You know, and they tend to be a little more dismissive. And that has never been my experience with Dave. He's, I really enjoy spending time with him and hearing his stories and talking to him. So, you know, these guys aren't getting younger.

And I'm just, I'm not looking forward to the day when, when, when, when, when, those names aren't there anymore and those conversations aren't to be had and those stories are no longer told. So to me it was super important to make the 50th because I knew there was going to be a good number of those people who've meant so much to me from when they were younger than I am now. You know, Dave was wearing that shirt. It's weird to be the same age as old people. And as I'm looking at that panel up there and it's like most of those guys, I knew them

when they were much younger than I am now. You know, I was a kid kid then. Right. It's tough to see those people being so old. I almost didn't recognize Frank Reuters. Like, yeah, he looked a little different that I remember. I thought he looked the same. Yeah.

You know, and Jordan, that was the messaging that you sold to me, you know, Justin, a little bit. You said, you know, you were folks more on the herping. You don't want to miss that. You were laying out the carrot for me. But, yeah, Jordan, your point on that was well taken and was certainly good. Hopefully, was able to firm up some things for getting some of those folks on the show, which is always good. A lot of grilling the experts have content. Speaking of a couple of the names he just talked about, though.

So I had come up while Robert was talking to Dave, so I got to hear the back end of that conversation. And then it was, you know, they were closing down the library to let them go to bed. and all that. And, but so Dave and I did talk for probably two minutes. And, you know, he's been super meaningful to me. And I think, you know, I could see in his eyes that I was communicating, that we were clear. And I was communicating and that he appreciated it, you know, and that it was touching

to him. So that was good. Craig, you know, I've had exposure to, obviously, Jordan from you. He's, you know, one of Keith and Teresa's. best buddies. But, you know, we had kind of a breakthrough moment where it went from. And I've talked to him on, chat with him on the phone for a couple of hours and whatever over the course of a couple different phone calls.

I've seen him in person a couple different times. But something about this time, clearly where there was a breakthrough. And it's like, oh, actually, now I see, you know, and that was good. Bob Applegate is hilarious. So, you know, and in the same vein, actually, a funny thing on that point, right? They'd sold the company, sold the website, all this different stuff. And, you know, they had let it lapse, and that was gone. And that's how he took it.

And I said, well, Bob, you know, you can, I can still pull it up on the Internet Archive, you know, all that stuff. And all those articles that he was writing for Herb Societies back in the 80s, you know, those things that were on there that were instrumental to my learning, you know, a decade on from it, front end of the Internet. And he said, well, all that stuff's gone. And I said, well, you just go to the Internet Archive, dude. and I showed him his website from, you know, whatever it is, January 17, 2007. And I think it blew his mind, man. Yeah, there's still a way to access that content. It's not gone, you know, it doesn't present in the same way.

You can't look at Applegate reptiles up. But it's the good and the bad on the Internet, man. No, you know, nothing's transient like it seems. So I need to send that to him so he can, you know, really fully dig into it and appreciate it. and even the joy from that of saying, no, I think it sort of restored what probably has functioned as a, you know, he has such a vibe to him, but restored what feels like a sense of loss, right?

I think he genuinely had feelings around it because he didn't believe it. And of course, the, you know, one of my one Piccadillo would be Bob's Wi-Fi could use a little bit of work. He needs to expand the library, so it make a little bit easier on me to show folks or whatever. So I had to run back to the main spot to pull it in and I'm bringing it back to him and all this stuff to say, no, you know, that feeling of loss that he's been carrying for several years, not quite the same. You know, it's not as dramatic as that. That's awesome. That is fantastic. While we're on people, I got to talk with Russ a bit. It was always good to see Russ Curley. He's one of my favorite people in the reptile world. Just such a happy. just and he was he's involved in the iHS pretty heavily he's one he's either one of the like what the secretary or something i mean yeah he's he's something yeah he's a big part of actively engaged and just

just an exemplary human i just really like him um but i i was going to buy a copy of his book and he just kind of handed it to me and said here you go i'm like no come on man like i said well always bring you one of mine as well you know it's It's not quite as worth as much, but just such a great person. So it was really fun to see him again. And I talked with Frank a little bit. He was like, now remind me what we did. What do we, you know, I was like, oh, yeah, you took me and my dad.

Oh, your dad, he was wonderful. He was a great man. I really enjoyed him. He's like, you can tell you're a good person because of your dad. And that meant a lot, you know, that was really cool that he remembered. dad and got excited about that. And then Gordon Shuit is, he's, he's a fun guy. I really like Gordon. And he had a book that was released. It was kind of cool because all these books got released around the same time and got there just in time for HS for the most part, you know. And so that was really cool. And to hear Gordon talk and to see him, visit with him a bit, just a happy guy and has contributed a lot of cool things to,

herb science. And then Bob Hanson, Robert Hanson. I wasn't going to let you go on. Go for it. Yeah. That was a big one for me. Yeah. Yeah. He's someone that I hold in such high regard. You know, I was fortunate enough as a, not young, young, but as a younger guy in my 20s, got to spend a fair amount of time herping with him.

And we were chasing down some very infrequently seen species in the San Juankeen Valley. I think we were looking for glossy snake. the last time him and I were road cruising and was really neat to have to reconnect with him. You know, he was the first naturalist who just seemed to know everything about anything that we saw. He could talk geology. He could talk plants. He could talk climate. He could talk about whatever.

And any place that I had interest in, he immediately knew people who were doing studies there and were working with this species or that species. over the decades, you know, he's the first person I reach out to if I have a question. He's immediately can, you know, sending me two, three papers. He's sending me email addresses of people. You know, one of the interesting observations I made on this trip. I reached out to him and he's like, interesting, you know, it was his response with an exclamation mark and he's like, this is the person to talk to.

So I've already got emails out to someone on one thing. And yeah, I just, I think the absolute world of him. And, you know, I was telling him, I knew that it wasn't necessarily his intention, but I was telling him that I always, I thought it great that after he had done the book review and the peer-reviewed book review on the Western reptiles and amphibians, and it was a bit of a scathing review. I thought it was that it was fitting because I always knew he was the type of person that it wasn't going to complain about something without going in and doing the work and making it better. And he's certainly started that with a California book. And if the Western book is even any part close to what the California book is, it's going to be the book that we've needed for a long time for the Western reptiles and amphibians.

So I can't wait to see it. Yeah, I can't wait to see that finished. His talk got me really excited for that Western field guide. That was kind of what I was shooting for with my Utah field guide was to show, you know, a variety of different phenotypes from across the range. and he's doing that with the whole western U.S. and taking multiple different localities that show the difference in, you know, he highlighted that in his talk as well where he took the old field guide and circled, you know, okay, here's what they show for this. And here's in, you know, the planned page for that species. And they had like eight or nine individuals and different looks and different patterns and different spots across the range. So very excited. And I mean, he's got a, them on all on white backgrounds. They're taking pictures of everything in their book. It's a pretty huge undertaking. I mean, I just think about what I had to do for the Utah field guide and how

much I relied on better herpers than myself to, you know, pull in some pictures of the stuff that I didn't have or better pictures of the stuff that I may have had. And really a great team effort. Now, he's getting help from a lot of people, but he's going to them to take pictures of the animals or, you know, getting them sent if that's allowed, those kind of things. So very cool endeavor. And I'm also looking very much forward to that. His California field guide is second on. I'm sure his Western field guide will be the same. That said, I mean, going through the taxonomy and, you know, the, the SSAR list of all the different species that are found, it's it's kind of a headache a little bit you know and they they really don't define some of those

very well i just for example that hernandez i has like three subspecies listed and i i never knew there were subspecies of hernandez i and and they referred to a paper and i looked at the paper and it was just a suggestion they didn't describe three subspecies they just said oh it could possibly be broken up like this but then ss they are saying okay these are the three subspecies i'm like what the heck so yeah it's kind of a little bit frustrating and you know once again the lack of uniformity within taxonomy yeah exactly and and you know some

some species have like eight you know sub species listed and other species are like nope it's just this one all the way across the United States you know it's yeah I mean okay I won't get into that rant I'm sure everybody's take of it from me I got ratted out to Damien Esquiry by somebody at the conference because I made a comment about the taxonomy of antarisia.

So we'll see. I think your talk is the only talk that had a boo in it though, right? It was a tactical boo. Yeah. That was pretty good. I got some dirty looks for that. Yeah. It was pretty funny.

Well, any other things that stuck out from the conference? I missed a lot of the talks. I would have liked to have seen some. It was really great to see Roy Blodgett and a couple guys that have been on. Roy and Billy was good. Matthew Wayne. Zach and his entire cavalcade was good. Yeah.

Zach just got voted in as the president of IHS. So that's pretty exciting. Which couldn't be a better match, right? Right. Especially as we're talking about when you, IHS is really kind of the melting pot for that field herpers, the herptoculture. the deli cuppers and the conservationist and herpetologists right yeah and so um zach you know literally sits in the center of that then diagram right he's right in the middle of all those boxes yeah and he's going to shows and he's and he's and he's breeding some animals and he's but he's doing some

phenomenal work research on on various species interacting with young people yeah interacting with young people like that's his big thing right and i don't know how he has so many students, that's insane. Well, the IHS was like 50% of his students. I think in five years, it's just going to be called the Zach Show or something. But yeah, no, I was, but then of course I went over and I went over to congratulate him and I told him, you know, basically what I just said, that I thought he was the perfect match for this and the perfect guy to carry the torch into the future, the near future for IHS. and he told me he's going to have me speak in one of the upcoming ones. And I was like, oh, great.

Maybe I shouldn't have gone up to him. He said, congrats. I'm not ready for that again yet. But no, I'm excited to see what IHS has in stores. It continues to grow. It's been bigger and smaller. It's been more herptic culture, more herpetology. It's been this.

It's been that over the years, depending on the leadership. But it's interesting, you know, especially you talk about, what Bob Ashley's doing for herpetology and for herptoculture and, you know, and, you know, being that guy for the next generation as well. So having him on the board and having him hosting. And I know someone brought up that, you know, having IHS every three to five years or something at rodeo would be phenomenal. And I couldn't agree more. I mean, I hope they built some better Airbnbs or a hotel or something in the area, you know. Um, but, I don't think we can escape the whole thing without really getting into that.

I don't want to cut this part off, but we will have to, you know, a couple, uh, last little pieces. You know, waking up to 90, you know, in bacon, rotissory baked at 92, 93 degrees is, is a feeling for sure. But, you know, I, I, I, you walk outside, or you get out of an air conditioned car. And I just, I, I automatically get an appreciation for. the folks that lived there before air conditioning and before, I mean, or that lived there forever, you know, for the last thousand, two thousand years. I just have a deep appreciation for those folks. Like, they must have been tough as nails to live out there. And I mean, it's impressive. Yeah, it's a beautiful area. But very hard. But very hard.

Their structures, to be honest, in a way that maybe commercial structure isn't, doesn't accommodate. Although we tried to vent the structure with the door open. I guess this was, oh, you guys had run up north. So you missed, we tried to vent it, left the door open. And we had a bat fly in and join us in the kitchen, which was exciting. Yeah, so that was. Yeah, it landed on Robert's leg. Yeah, it was, that was excitement.

Brandon and Dustin turned up Thursday night. And so then we had, there were a couple parts here that yeah you guys were busy listening to talks I wasn't I was out in the field for these adventures we were trying to turn up a Chiracawa club and that a little bit hot felt super dry but if you flip stuff it was wet I don't know it was an odd situation but that afternoon

we were driving up to the peaks in the Chiracalas to try and find some interesting crotes for this crew that crew of Dustin's buddies. And as we're going up, you see a little bit of, there's this smoke rising right off the road, you know, not the place you'd expect the campground, not, you know, where you'd put a fire pit or whatever. And so I guess this was Friday then, not Thursday. And Thursday night we'd had a lot of lightning going, but no rain to go with it while you guys were up north.

And anyways, we come along the smoke, we have Dustin jump out, check it out. and it's a tree that, you know, the lightning struck the night before, broke off the top, you know, broke it probably two-thirds of the way down. And so that was shattered on the ground. And then it was actively hot, several hundred degrees to the touch. And there was, we must have been within 10 minutes of it actually sprouting flame out the front. So we put 14, 15 gallons of water on it and did our duty. You know, again, that, that is normal for that environment, but not necessarily this time of year so dry.

you know, all those things. IHS might have turned out a little bit different if all of a sudden, you know, on Friday afternoon, the churkows were on fire. So, you know, you can thank the Jug Brothers. We did our duty and then went up the hill. Not all heroes wear a cape. Some carry jugs of water. Exactly right. So, yeah.

Very cool. To dust in the group. I was still getting to see Dustin again. And Brandon, those guys are so great. You know, I just, I don't know, he's, he's, he's what that next generation represents, you know, is a great representation of good things coming down in the next generation. And, yeah, they would talk a little quieter. That might help, but.

I know, it's like their volume went up every hour past midnight. It was like, went up 10%. Yeah. And I appreciate their excitement. You know, that's the, that's where that's coming from. They're all sharing experiences and stories of herping and things. And they just get excited and talk louder and louder. And you're like, I'm old.

I got to sleep. I can't get by on two hours of sleep like you guys can. It's a ruckus crew for sure. Yeah, something of the pirate aspect of the whole thing for sure. Yeah. Great to see them again. Nevertheless, woke up early Saturday morning and you guys went to the talk, you know, maybe adventures aside, but went to the talks more or less.

we decided to go hit the pelotillos again and yet another new area. And, but we did follow your intuition advice where I had said to you, hey, we're doing, you know, you said, why don't you go left instead of right functionally? Or why are we taking the way that we went on Thursday? And I said, well, you know, sure, it's a mile further, but, you know, you're losing and gaining 500 fewer extra feet on each way. And well, well, twice to say you were correct that I was failing. I only to appreciate that we're in the palancios, and that's, you know, rough pushwhacking. And sure, it's more verticality in a shorter space, but what you're losing there, you're saving and not going an extra mile of very brutal, very brutal terrain.

So, yeah, we did that, and we were out there long enough that Jordan thought he was going to have to call in, you know, the jaws of life or whatever for us. We were out there seven and a half hours, I think, in the field. Yeah. Fortunately, we got into self-service range early enough to call off the cavalcade. But, yeah, again, another reminder lesson in, you know, clarity around the intentionality and what the plan is and all those things, especially when you're going to, yeah, a place that can be unforgiving. But also, it's hard to spend that much time getting into the area and then having to call it quits. And also that, I mean, I had this drive on the way out of town as well back on my trip home. There was some talk of some rare snakes being found, you know, where they weren't very commonly found.

So I wanted to go look for them down in southern area, you know, south of Tucson. So I went down there on my way out and he was like I'd make another pass and I wouldn't see one of these snakes. You know, I saw several snakes, but not the, not those target ones that I was hoping to see. and just kept thinking, if I do one more pass, you know, that's when I'm, if I do one more, it's like almost like a gambler's addiction to her being, you know. So, yeah, that was, I know the thought process of like, well, we're here. We might as well spend another hour. Let's go search this area or let's go down here.

Or maybe if it gets dark, we'll see something. You know, those kind of thoughts just kind of pop into your head. And so the plans change kind of on the fly. But I was like, man, they're missing the banquet, they're missing the panel, they're missing the talk, you know, like all these cool things. And then the, you know, not so much the auction. I can never outbid those companies. I really wanted those barker plates from the volume one, you know, the Python's the World Volume 1 book.

That would have been cool to get a copy of those. But, oh well. Well, congratulations to Tony for getting those. Yeah. Tony got the copy of them. Karina for giving me a ride over from the Snorren Desert Museum and Tony for dropping. driving me back to the airport. No, he's a good guy.

Other things to do. Another one, good to catch up with him and see him again. Yeah, he's a great guy. Just a lot of good people there. It was a lot of fun. But yeah, that was kind of the thought process. Like, oh man, they're missing all this good stuff. But, you know, were you missing it?

You were enjoying herping. So I guess that's the tradeoff, right? Yeah, I mean, well, and just speaking of the conditions, you know, for anybody thinking about it, we did a whole three miles in seven and a half hours. Yeah, right. And that tells you everything that you need to know. Now, speaking of good people, I forgot to mention Jeff Lamb. It was fun to see him again and Maddie and his son and chat with them a little bit about herping and their adventures. He was one of the ones that found one of those rare snakes south of Tucson that made me anxious to.

to get out there and look. So yeah. Oh, the, the end of that story was I got like two hours of sleep and had to drive home, which was not great. Two hours of sleep in the back of my vehicle at a rest stop, you know, with the lights blaring. So what do you do? Well, another name that we haven't brought up that, but it was a big part of getting I, you know, the success of IHS and someone who's been a longtime friend of mine was Jerry Salmon. Oh, yeah. And I had, the opportunity to drive him home. He'd come out with Dave Barker, and he was speaking later than others were headed back. And so just as luck would have it, I got to have him in my vehicle on the way home.

And you want to talk about a wealth of knowledge of West Texas herping and not just West Texas, right? I mean, he's one of the pine snake guys. And so, you know, Craig got after me a little bit for not me. making the photo of authors, but I kind of felt like is my contract, even though my name's on the front of that Pichofus book, I don't really consider myself an author there, but to have Craig, Jerry, and I in the same room and have some discussions in the first time we've been all together since that book was put together and published earlier this year was great, but to pick his brain and talk through some of the things that, some of the challenges and interesting areas for, you know,

pituitophis populations that either haven't been seen in a while, Or are they this, are they that? And man, we need to double down and go out this way, places that he's very comfortable with and has spent much of his life out seeing snakes, the pine snakes. And most of my life's been out with the gopher snakes. And so lots of good conversation with him,

lots of good conversation about herpetologist's past. And when I took him back to his place, got to go. And he just lives an amazing home on the top of a hill in the hill country of West Texas and limestone all around him. and seeing a bunch of the books in his library, man. I mean, the books that we love, but these are signed by the authors.

Right. Like some Dittmar's skeletons and some, I mean, he's got some stuff that's really trippy. And then he gave me a piece of art that I just kept looking at. And he's like, you know what? I don't really have room for this. And I'd really love for you to have it. Wow. I know you'd give it a good home.

Yeah. Just an incredible, it's an alterna painted on a rock from one of the cuts, you know. It looks like it's coming out of the rock and just, I mean, if you set it up on a cut, people would be slamming on the crags or they'd be dropping their flashlights running over there or whatever. However they're herping, they'd be freaking out. They can make this beautiful alternative coming out of a rock and it's just painted on a rock from, I think, 1991 or 1992. I'm forgetting the authors or the artists. artist's name, but it's on my shelf in the other room. It's actually too nice for my HIRP library.

It's actually in the front room with some of my favorite stuff for the general population to come and see when they come to house. Nice. Thank you, Jerry. And like I said, it was great. And him and I went down to the Big Bend region, and, you know, he and I had some really fun herping. And it was amazing, Justin, because we're just talking, what, four or five days after

you and I went on there? and everything had hatched. And so we were just seeing snake after snake after snake. Dang. What was the difference, right? I mean. But it was a lot just like we were seeing around rodeo. There's just a lot of babies.

Right. A lot of baby A-Trox. Missed it by a bit. Not that you needed to see any more A-Trox. All right. Well, we did get one more reticulate us. So it's fun to do that. Yeah.

I'm anxious to get back there. Yeah, for sure. And I disagree. You should have been in the author photo, but yeah, that's, you did a substantial. Yeah, it was, it was a lot of effort. But yeah, that's, that's important. I need to be on a, I need to be on a book where it's, where I actually was authoring. So I'm looking forward to that. We need to make that happen soon. Yeah, thanks, Jordan, for bringing up, Jerry. You know, in the same vein as, you know, several the ones that I called out before. It felt like, you know, we, you know, and I, you know, and I, you know, and I. I understand there's a natural reluctant. The entire atmosphere is interesting, right? Because amongst that group, there's a lot of relationships that go a long time for better

and worse. I know you, you know, we've spoken to some of that and whatever, right? So there's some that are great, some that are less great. Some of it water under the bridge, others not so much, you know, whatever. So there's a lot of feelings there. And then you have us younger guys, whether it's sort of median like me or Dustin, Brandon, and Nick Vine, you know, that crew that's substantially younger, sometimes there are some walls.

And it's always interesting to see if you can break through, you know, as it talks about with Greg, you know. And then I think Jerry and I kind of had the same deal where it was like there was an initial reaction. And then we had a little bit of a back and forth. And then there was a test. And then it was, you passed the test. And now, okay, now we're cool. You know.

Yeah. I appreciate that. Right. And Jerry's a long-term, or not long-term, but long-time facilitator of all things in the HRP societies. You know, he always seems to be, you know, the person at the door or someone who is helping with this aspect or that aspect. And he's got about the least amount of ego of any one of any of the herpers I know of. And yet he's touching almost every aspect of it. He's another kind of see him in the same vein as Russ Gurley.

You know, he's just ubiquitous to every aspect of it. His name's attached to so many things. And yet, you know, you talk to him and it's just like, oh, you know, it's like there's no, look what I did. Look what I did. You know. So, yeah, I really enjoy. No pretense to the whole thing. Yeah.

And in fact, that was kind of a component of the test was like, okay, show me that, you know, show me that you know. And yeah. That was cool. That's neat. One other talk I wanted to mention, just this was more of a, the future is bright type of observations. But Caitlin Carl, or Katie Carl, I think she went by Katie. She talked about a long-term study on the Diamondback rattlesnakes and other snakes of the Sweezell Mountains. And looking at multiple years of tracking different animals and,

looking at den sites and things. And I believe she was one of Gordon Schuitt's old students and is kind of making her way through and to become a herpetologist. But she showed a picture of her when she won like a junior herper award, just this like 14 year old kid, you know, big smile and holding her little certificate or whatever. And I mean, I almost had a Zach Lofman, you know, breakdown moment of weeping in there, just seeing that. just thinking, how cool is that, you know, that she won a junior Herper Award. Now she's giving a talk and presenting her research, just kind of a really cool thing to see. And, again, just speaks to the strengths of IHS and training up young Herper.

So that was really cool to see. Yeah, her, Neil and Maddie Lem were the three that, you know, from IHS gone by, junior herpers, to see them who they are today was really neat. And, you know, Maddie didn't talk, but to be able to talk to him in the audience and catch up with him. Because last time I herped with him was 11, 12 years ago when he was a junior herper at the, you know, won an award at IHS in San Antonio. I think it was. But, yeah, those three did a phenomenal job. I'm just, like you said, I just came away from it really feeling like there's big things happening in the future. So I'm excited about it.

Yeah. Good stuff. Well, we neglected to talk about one evening of herping. I think it was just Rob and myself and Nick, but we were out looking for in the Gila spot, looking for different stuff at night. And I think a big crowd of other IHS attendees had come. And so Jordan and Robert bounced and they went down somewhere else. And we were out there looking around.

and they had like a drone flying around and and swooping over us. I'm just like, what are you doing? Yeah, like follow this. I'm very seriously considered, given, you know, putting to the test, the line that I've said about my flashlight taking down the helicopters. Right. But I thought maybe they wouldn't react too well to that. Yeah. I did flash my flashlight out of a little bit.

We'll see if they turned up one of the coolest things. Yeah. That was actually one of my favorite clients. That was mine too. Like, I don't know. I love. you know, all wildlife. But yeah, we were walking along and I see this badger like walking around in the desert and took off for its burrow. And I'm like, oh, that was so cool to see that, you know. And so I went

running over to where its burrow was and shined a light in there. And all of a sudden it kind of comes out, like it's curious, like what's all this light? And it like if it heard you or felt like you were too close, it would back up into the burrow. And then after a minute or two, it'd like stick its head out, kind of look around. So we got these great pictures. of this badger right at the mouth of his borough. That was a, that was well worth the evening, I think. Yeah.

Plus seeing some banded geckos in there was really nice too and some other fun stuff. But that was the highlight of the evening, I think, was that badger. Absolutely. Yeah. And then driving up north with Jordan, he had to go pick up a cell phone from a Starbucks. So that was, I went and rode up there with him. We were going to go look for some Serbs and, you know,

up further north and missed out on the Serbs. It saw lots of cool things, including something that gave us a bit of pause, stopped in the middle of road. Why don't you tell that one? Yeah, I mean, one of my favorite things about being out in the desert is, you know, you quite frequently see stuff in the sky that doesn't necessarily belong there. And so got to see yet another UFO. which we were able to identify somewhat later.

But man, what a cool thing is we're driving into the sunset and over the mountains and the distance. We just see this wispy, just it's hard to describe, but there's kind of a wispy trail in the sky. But the tip of it that's creating it all of a sudden we can see that it's moving. It's actually moving fairly quickly. And you could tell it's a long ways away. And so I stopped the truck. and we stick our cameras out the window and zoom in and get some video. And you could actually see like the thrusters on this thing is it's like just spraying material into the atmosphere, you know.

And it's just wild looking with the sun coming through this thing's jet plume or whatever it is. And it's going horizontal, right? It's paralleling the end. And so Mike Rappley, who works with NASA, was also there and is a good friend. And so I was showing it to him. And I'm always, you know, showing some of my astrophotography and weird sightings to him and love talking all things aerospace with him.

And he got really geeked out. And so he looked it up and it was a Falcon 9 that had launched out of California. But it was in its orbital insertion. So it was completely, you know, flat with the horizon coming across. But yeah, that launched in California. And we were seeing it in far eastern Arizona looking like, It was, you know, right over the next mountain range over in the sunset. So that was really neat to get that video and see what that was.

And it had a weird double, like, exhaust. Like it was almost like a, yeah. And I almost include like a double helix or something. Yeah. Like it looks like it was binding out and then coming back towards. But, yeah, really. That's really a cool. Yeah, a cool one.

So. Yeah. Pretty fun. Pretty fun to see those kind of things. Yeah. Yeah. It was a fairly snaky night as the sun was going down. Yeah.

Yeah. We got quite a few snakes that night. And that big female, she looked like she had just dropped a litter, that female Western Diamondback. And got a couple black tails. And it was a nice night. Vinegrooms were on the move. Frogs and tracholas everywhere. Yeah.

And that owl we saw like a barn owl wheel and dive like in the field. That was pretty cool. Yeah, as we were turning around and as the headlights like panned across this field, that thing just like dropped right down and grabbed. It was, that was really neat. Yeah. It was a great night. Great night of herping.

Yep. I don't know. Is there any other things I missed on that we experienced on this trip? Do you learn anything new or exciting? Like any thoughts either of you gained from this time? Well, I'll say that I'll go ahead. head, Bob Rock, give it to us. Well, I was just going to say, you know, we'd be remiss not to mention Paul, his son, and

Stephen Cush, you know, that group was really cool and was always just so supportive. Tanya, amongst Zach's crew, you know, just the people that I've thought of that I don't think we mentioned before, the super, super great folks that were always great for conversation and things whenever we, at least Brandon Dustin and I happen to be, and Nick happened to be back. on campus, so to speak. Sorry, Jordan, go ahead. Kyle Vargas as well. We got to visit with him a bit.

Doug Dory came in. Yeah, Doug Dory came in for that Saturday, and that's always great getting a chance to see Doug. I didn't get a chance. I didn't get to meet him in person until just this last year, but he's one who's quite frequently out with Kyle Vargas. And he's been a longtime staple in some. Southern Arizona herping.

Right. Another one of those guys who just is just pure gold. You know, he's one of the good guys for sure. Right. But yeah, aside from the people, I don't know that there's any thing that I learned specifically from the IHS. Like I said, some really neat observations in some of our herping that I'm excited about. But one of the coolest things for me is, you know, you and Edwards is very generous and me some books that I had long been wanting to get my hands on that we just can't really get in the U.S. market.

He brought me a really cool book on Queensland reptiles and amphibians that has like those transparency overlays. And you like lay it over the range maps and you can see, you know, your drainage and whatnot. And that kind of came from conversations about the software that I'd put together and I'd shared that with him some time ago. So he's like, oh, you need to check this out. So I was like, I had no idea that book even existed. So he brought me that. And one of the original prints of Edgar Waits, reptiles and amphibians of South Australia,

I've got the SSAR reprint, but to have an original was a big deal. And assigned Hal Cogger first edition of Coggers. So I'm going to have like half a shelf of just the Cogger book. When I finally make space to get that in there somewhere and I came home with two three two and a half cases of books and then stacks of books on the back seat on top of that I think it's about 30 books I came came back from yeah and most of those were books on Australia so super super stoked and my son was absolutely

floored he got a he got one of Justin's field guides and Justin signed it to my son and My son read that and was absolutely floored. Like that's his first hurt book that was signed to him. And so Justin, he's on cloud nine. I mean, he was taking pictures. He was FaceTiming his cousins showing him the book. And he's like, look, the author is our friend Justin. He signed it to me.

And he was all super stoked about that. So again, it's all about the future, right? And as a bibliophile, I love that my son thought that that was, it had more impact than I was expecting than I knew he'd think it was cool, but he thought it was really cool. So thank you, Justin. Oh, that's, thank you for sharing that. That means a lot.

Yeah. He's going to be, he's going to outshine me by far. He's probably already had. He's been more cool stuff that I have. I know, man. You got to see that cover carpet, man. I'm jealous for his experiences. He's certainly miles ahead of where I was at that age.

I mean, you know, at six years old, he'd already had, what, eight species of a python and half the or half the rattlesnakes in the U.S. under his belt. He's got a pretty good dad. Yeah, he's fun to herp with. So I hope he sticks with it. But yeah, I think that's the big takeaway is that, which is always something I've been preaching as I'm getting older.

But it's about the next generation. And I came away feeling very hopeful about where we're headed. So I don't always feel that way. I need to be a less selfish hirper and try to impart. And again, I feel like I'm kind of a novice still too. I haven't been doing this as long as like you and a lot of the other folks have. So I feel like, you know, I'm still learning, still growing, still trying to figure out what's going on. I'm happy to help where I can, you know, and hopefully, you know, but I don't know.

Some of these guys have been doing it for a long time. Like Dustin, I don't think I could teach Dustin anything. I'm learning from him, you know, I'm asking him advice. If you ever feel, though, that you, if you ever feel like you've been there and done that and like you aren't learning every day, then it's time to hang up your hook, right? Right. Right. And Rob, I know, you know, you're not always thrilled about the birds and all the non-reptiles. But, you know, we all go through these phases in it.

And your passion is certainly big enough for the reptiles right now. And as you tick off some more on those lists, I bet some of those other things fall into your radar and start getting some of that love. I know that was definitely the case for me. But man, if you ever out there and you feel like you know everything that there is to know out there, you're missing it big time. You're definitely on that peak of that Dunning Kruger curve. And you've got a long way to fall, buddy.

I mean, to be out on the river road, a place that I've been for 30, what, 36 years I've been hunting down there. And every single time I go down there, I see something I've never seen before, or at least didn't recognize that I had seen it before and learn something new. And yeah, man, this world's too big. And you could be in your backyard, learn something new every day. So I just don't know. Right. Too much. Yeah.

Too much good stuff. That's for sure. Yeah, every time I go out there, it just reiterates that that I need to be out there more. But at the same time, I'm kind of glad I've slowed down a little bit because it was pretty hard. And I was worried I was pushing my family too much by being away as long as I was being away. So I think this has been really good to spend more time with them and, you know, take my wife over to Germany and the Czech Republican things. That was a really good time with her. Right. Yeah. But yeah, speaking of books, I was, I picked up the Iper's Australasianalapids book. I finally able to get that. And that was a good one. And then I wasn't too, you know, I wasn't planning on getting Danny Brown's new books.

But then being a copy of them, I got a, Ron, you and Edwards had some. books for Ron St. Pierre and he wasn't going to be able to make it. So he asked me if I'd send the books to him. So I shipped those off yesterday. So I was looking at his copies. I'm like, oh, man, I kind of need that. It's really a nice, nice and well done book. Huge books, but a little pricier than I was hoping for. But yeah, very cool. I noticed too that Nick Vine had a photo in there. Oh, did he? Yeah. It was the Kakadu, Glowardy. thing. Oh, cool. Yeah. Yeah, we were talking about that. That must spend the night

you guys were up north. Oh, okay. Yeah, we had pulled that up and we're looking at it and all that. Oh, cool. Yeah, we were chatting about that Critter a little bit and things too. And yeah, I'd be remiss not to mention that, you know, between you and Paul, I certainly appreciate the beautiful note was great.

The copy that I had ordered, along with Boggs Applory's books and a whole lot of the other things was waiting for me when I got home. But, and certainly I, uh, and certainly I, uh, owe a debt to Gordy who evidently, you know, he and I have a similar mindset or appeal for pitchers. So, yeah, I was happy, you know, I was definitely happy about that. Yeah.

I was happy to get Gordon's book to his Lizards of the Sky Islands. That was another one I picked up and got him. He signed that for me, so that was really nice. And then also got Zap Lordy's book there as well. The Natural History of New Jersey Reptops. as I mentioned too, Russ Gurley and Anthony Pirillone, Turtle Preservation, the Ultimate Guide to Turtle Husbandry. So I've always loved Chaloneyans, more tortoises.

I asked him if there's a tortoise one in the making, and he said, yeah, it's not going to be quite as long, but they're going to come out with one of those. So those were my stack of books that I came home with. But yeah, so just lifting them is a challenge there. There's some thick books there, but good times. I don't know. I always love making it out there. I still need to take my wife and kids out there to check that place out.

So that needs to happen sooner than later. Maybe go down there during the more pleasant time of year when it's not quite so hot. And then the herbs aren't as thick. So it's a toss-up. Well, I know which Airbnb I wouldn't recognize. I really like that one that we stayed at the first trip out there. Rob booked one. You just need to go a little bit later so that you're off the peak birding season or whatever.

And then, yeah, that really, I think, is the place to be. It's beautiful. So much wildlife going. Even quote off season and there's still herbs going and stuff like that. Yeah, they had a quaddi feeding out of the bird feeders like on the side of the Airbnb. be it was really cool you'd reach out and pet him if you're I think the birds aren't my thing but I you know and I'm not to Owen's level in terms of the mammals but yes a lot of those mammals are really cool to me you know yeah yeah

fun times well did we miss anything yes but not pertinent not to remain at this time I'm sure we miss some people you know there's always people that you neglect and sorry if we missed you on this but know that you're appreciated. I'm terrible with things anyway. I'm glad I had the... We didn't talk about we're going to have on. So, you know, that's fine different.

Let me take five seconds to say, to say Michael Berger. Yeah. His book, you know, the herptoculture book is really cool and I'm excited to see how that's received. Yeah. I, for one, I'm going to have mine at my table in Daytona. So I don't know if this will be released before the Daytona.

Tona show, but if you're in the book, please come by and sign that book. I mean, I really see it as being the yearbook for the herptoculturists out there. And, you know, the back is just pages and pages and pages of photos of so many of us. And it's really cool to flip through and see, you know, see ourselves younger and see, read the stories of the people who had big impact on, on, some of us personally, but certainly on the hobby. So yeah, I'm super excited about that. I got a chance to write a little bit of a blurb on Lloyd Lemke, who was a huge mentor to me at one point,

and a couple paragraphs of that was included in the book. So that was pretty neat to feel like I had a chance to contribute, felt like a little bit of a link to the past there. Yeah. That was really cool. I'm excited. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. I'm glad they included you in the book, too.

That's really cool. Barely. I'm the last photo. Not quite old enough to be one of the pioneers yet. You're getting... You missed it by it. You missed it by a few days. Yeah.

That's 12 days too late, right? I guess. Oh, no. That's awesome. I really was sad that Casey wasn't able to make it. That would have been really great to see him, chat with him a bit. So I hope he's feeling.

well and you know we'll see him with the next thing but yeah he was definitely missed when we got that text well we were herp in west texas i know both of us were really just pretty pretty pretty saddened by it yeah i need to give him a call but yeah that's he's he's one of my favorite people in herpeticulture for sure like i don't know good memories uh chatting with him and uh yeah and how about those jingle backs that he just had just dropped those two little black beauties amazing Good consolation prize having to miss IHS to have some shingle backs more in its place. That's pretty cool. Yeah, for sure.

For sure. All right. Well, I don't know. I came home to destruction and misery in my rodent shed. That was not a good thing to come home to. And like, I don't know how many had gotten loose, but they're all over outside. I think I trapped eight of them today. And it's all rats.

And my neighbors are not pleased. And I love these neighbors. They're great people. And I think their patience is growing thin with me. So, oh my gosh, that was not a fun thing to come home to. So, yeah, my rats are not in good shape. No, I did not. Well, you know, I knew they were loose.

Like, the kids are like, the rats are everywhere. I'm like, well, what's going on? Do they have food? Do they have water? And I came home and found out that they did not. And so I'm like, why did you guys not check? on them, you know, or give them, figure out what was going on. So, yeah, I was a little, I guess they had other things to think about. And I didn't specifically ask them to like, do this or do that.

I didn't put it in the calendar. Yeah. I told my daughter, I'd pay her some money if she'd keep, you know, keep up on the geckos and the, and the rodents. But I guess the rodents took a backseat or they were too stinky or something. So I felt really bad. But, you know, I'm digging to that a little bit more next week. See, how. I know. I need to. As the world turns. That was a little rough. So stuff always happens when we're on the road. Yeah, something. I mean, yeah, every time I leave town, something goes wrong. This year, my wife did like all these renovation projects.

Like she overhauled the downstairs bathroom. Like, do you just have to wait until I leave to get out of your way or whatever? Yeah, because I'm always like, well, I can do that. And then I don't do it. So she's like, good. He's finally gone. I can actually get it done. So sorry, honey.

But, yeah, so. That's pretty great. I'm still working through the aftermath of IHS. No fault of IHS for sure. But, yeah, yikes. All right, well, on that note, thanks so much, Jordan, for coming on. We need to have you back as often as you're willing to come on.

It's always great talking with you. You're just a wealth of information. I enjoy it. Fun reminiscing about the stories and good to get them kind of recorded so we can look back on this and have this as a digital memoir of the trip. So, so to speak. Absolutely. Our minds change the stories over time. So it's good to get them down while they're fresh and inaccurate.

Absolutely. Yeah. But thank you so much. And we'll thank Eric and Owen and the NPR crew. Well, thank you for listening and we'll catch you next time.